Can the past be changed?

[Kiechi]

"History is objectivly true, therefore it cannot be changed"

Do you agree or disagree with the above statement?

(Only serious members reply, I don't want this thread hijacked)

[Porkchop Express]

So are we outlawing any form of time travel? because I have my theories!?!

[Kiechi]

Yes, we are DEFINITELY excluding theories of time travel. Sorry.

[greenrider85]

hmmmm. i think that history can be changed??

[Kiechi]

Yeah, any dimwit can say that. Back up your notions please.

[Porkchop Express]

Yeah, any dimwit can say that. Back up your notions please.

Why are you always being so aggressive towards people!?!

Can the past be changed without time travel!?! No I can’t think of a way to do that, But history can be shaped and rewritten to alter peoples feeling on a subject too meet a particular purpose. i.e. propaganda.

[Kiechi]

Why are you always being so aggressive towards people!?!

I wasn't be aggressive :face82:

Can the past be changed without time travel!?! No I can’t think of a way to do that, But history can be shaped and rewritten to alter peoples feeling on a subject too meet a particular purpose. i.e. propaganda.

Isn't that still changing history?

[greenrider85]

let's see you need anger management or something. anyways if someone killed hitler or got rid of hitler before he was made chancellor, the holocaust maybe wouldn't have happened. happy now????

[Kiechi]

let's see you need anger management or something. anyways if someone killed hitler or got rid of hitler before he was made chancellor, the holocaust maybe wouldn't have happened. happy now????

Ok can you please not post in this thread, because you obviously don't understand what I'm asking of you. I want to keep this thread serious.

Thank you.

[greenrider85]

hey, i am being serious. wtf? i was completely serious!!!!!!!!

[Kiechi]

I'm saying if history was objective, are we able to change it?

(I'm pretty certain you have no idea what objective means, please search it up)

[Porkchop Express]

Kiechi: cut it out!

Changing people’s perception of the past doesn’t change history itself... The truth is sealed in the sands of time with the hour glass and other ponderous metaphors of such rubbishness. Unless you’re commenting on the idea that if everyone believed a lie to be true that it in effect rewrites the past even and changed the course of time... Na I don’t buy that man. Sorry.

greenrider: everyone’s so quick to victimise Hitler... I'm not saying that I agree with the guys actions but let’s focus on our own countries faults first hey... I don’t want to fall out with America but your no saints yourselves... This coming fro a Birt, whose country invented the gas chamber... I hate my country.

[Kiechi]

1st type of history: History as a recollection of personal events.

Scenario: Parents are out to work and your home alone to make breakfast. You decide to have a bowl of cereal. You go to school and someone asks you the Q, “What did you have for breakfast?” and you reply with “toast”. Then you get hit by a car and die. When the police are collecting evidence and then asks one of your friends what you had for breakfast and then replies with "Toast", history has successfully been changed.

[Darren337]

i feel there is no way to change the past. i feel what can be changed is the way we perceive the past, and our outlook upon it. when something unfortunate happens, like a family member dies, we can mourn them until WE die, but that doesnt change the past. instead we can change the mourning, we can move on... we can accept things for what they are and continue forward.

[Kiechi]

i feel there is no way to change the past. i feel what can be changed is the way we perceive the past, and our outlook upon it. when something unfortunate happens, like a family member dies, we can mourn them until WE die, but that doesnt change the past. instead we can change the mourning, we can move on... we can accept things for what they are and continue forward.

Read my post above yours.

BTW, you shouldn't take offense to what I say. From what you see I'm pretty much a bastard. So if you had took offense to what I've said in the past. This I guess this is my queue to say I'm sorry. However, If I don't agree with something I will openly state it.

[Darren337]

Read my post above yours.

you posted while i was writing mine, so oh well.

that isnt changing the past, thats the lie about the past being put on record. if they did an autopsy, they would know it was cereal, and thus the toast would be disproved.

[Kiechi]

you posted while i was writing mine, so oh well.

that isnt changing the past, thats the lie about the past being put on record. if they did an autopsy, they would know it was cereal, and thus the toast would be disproved.

But there wouldn't be anyone to disprove what she ate for breakfast because it's a rather trivial question. I'm sure they would be more concerned with who ran her over, not what she shad for breakfast.

However, not that I found your counter-argument valid or anything but heres a more solid example.

Scenario: Iraqi war. When reporters come in, people at the site they are filming at direct the reporters at somewhere where positive things are going on. For example, “Iraqi people working together by co-operating with US solders”. Then on the other side of the site there was a bomb that just went off resulting in the death of 20 Iraqis.

As you can see controlled media can easily influence peoples thought. As long as the people at the site keep quiet about the bomb incident, it’s just another part of history that’s been erased.

[Darren337]

thats a scenario where history was falsely represented. that doesnt mean that the bomb didnt fall. if you were thinking of history as a paper trail, or a data file only, then yes, you could "go back in time" and change something.

i keep log files of all happenings in AIM. why? i dunno i just do. along with all of the connection data, i have a complete archive of my conversations. if i decided to edit a conversation between me and someone else, in theory i would be changing history. in actuality i would be changing the record of history. what was actually said (the original convo) doesnt change. if that were true, i would be able to change the world by opening a text file

[greenrider85]

i am sorry kiechi to get so easily offended. okay i guess the first person people always go for is hitler. bad example. america has made plenty of mistakes...vietnam, oh man. it seems like it was fought basically to stop communism. i don't know, with iraq at first i thought get rid of saddam. but what's great about our media is they like to say what we want to hear. i know i might get hurt for saying this, but i say michael moore's movie farenheit 9/11. course he is very radical. but now i know there was nothing there it shouldn't have happened. and bush claims that saddam was involved with bin laden. fudge i don't know. i don't really watch the news. how are we to know that it's true. sorry, get off the soapbox, and going off the tangent...

[kinonai]

Yeah, any dimwit can say that. Back up your notions please.
You were doing exactly that in the Racism thread :rolleye09 . (So, do you know that you just called yourself a dimwit? :LOL: )

[greenrider85]

i guess he can be easily provoked?

[Pipp-ORK]

Jeebus, people, calm down. O_O Let's not start any bickers her, k? ^_^ But there wouldn't be anyone to disprove what she ate for breakfast because it's a rather trivial question. I'm sure they would be more concerned with who ran her over, not what she shad for breakfast.

However, not that I found your counter-argument valid or anything but heres a more solid example.

Scenario: Iraqi war. When reporters come in, people at the site they are filming at direct the reporters at somewhere where positive things are going on. For example, “Iraqi people working together by co-operating with US solders”. Then on the other side of the site there was a bomb that just went off resulting in the death of 20 Iraqis.

As you can see controlled media can easily influence peoples thought. As long as the people at the site keep quiet about the bomb incident, it’s just another part of history that’s been erased.
Yes, but in that sense history hasn't really been affected, just ignored. You can't REALLY erase history, only ignore it and TRY to make it go away. What's happened has happened, and there's no way to change that. About that Hitler thing, if someone had killed Hitler, that wouldn't have been changing history because there'd be no history TO change, history would have been MADE. If Hitler had been killed, and the holocaust hadn't happened, that history wouldn't have been there in the first place, and thus history wouldn't have been changed, but rather created. And we all know that there is no way (as of yet) to time travel, so therefore history cannot be actually CHANGED. There, I'm done. :doindadom (This is all in my opinion, of course. I'm not saying your statements are wrong, Kiechi. ^_^)

[Ryudell]

The thread is running away... *calmly pickes up a reel and begins to collect thread*

Forget Kiechi's behavior, I'm going to answer that question.

By all means the past cannot be changed (unless you're considering time travel). But history on the other hand, can. Why? Because in all essence, history is interpretation of past events. Over time, events' accounts can be distorted and in effect, be changed. Take an event, a historical event that you know happened. From your side the interpretation maybe 'A', but I see it as 'B'. We're looking at the same event but different views, which we have written down as 'history'.

Even today, historical events are being revaluated and reinterpreted. Literally you are changing history.

Summing it up, the past itself cannot be changed, but the interpretation, the story of what REALLY happened...can.

[Pipp-ORK]

Exactly. (Now that I've read your post Ryudell, I'm starting to realize that 'past' and 'history' are actually quite different..^_^) History is "the knowledge of facts and events'' while past is "a former time or state." So..yeah. History can be moulded to whatever someone wants it to be, but without a time travelling device, the past cannot be changed.

[Aj.]

no the past cant be changed, it makes sense to me but when i wrote my reason here it didnt make much sense, but its basically the same as everyone elses :)

[sinkinswimmer]

Wow... interesting thread. However, by discounting any theory of time travel, the answer to your question is fairly obvious. No. As to the seemingly underlying point of "If the perception of the past is changed, does that actually change the past?" The answer is still no. What actually happened cannot be undone. The only part that can be changed is the documentation of past events. By asking such a question, I take it you're trying to touch on the philosophical question, "Does perception create reality? Or does reality create perception?" Seeing as how any attempt at answering said question will lead to a circular argument, it's probably best to be discarded.

[Darren337]

is it just me or is there not much of a debate here? we all seem to agree.

[greenrider85]

i guess. i understand now. okay pipp and ryu i agree. sometimes i say things that don't make sense.

[Porkchop Express]

The only debate here is how people define the word history... or am I missing something?

[Darren337]

The only debate here is how people define the word history... or am I missing something?

you pretty much have it.

history (definintion):
A chronological record of events, as of the life or development of a people or institution, often including an explanation of or commentary on those events: a history of the Vikings.

so you can change history, but you can never change the past (thats what it comes down to).

[greenrider85]

The only debate here is how people define the word history... or am I missing something?
i have no idea...runs away...

[Porkchop Express]

so you can change history, but you can never change the past (thats what it comes down to).

Yep thought so... so where do we go from here... the discussion is lost... Its all over… I feel so cold darren... so cold...

[greenrider85]

Yep thought so... so where do we go from here... the discussion is lost... Its all over… I feel so cold darren... so cold...
ummm. what do you mean by cold? you getting sick? :confused:

[sinkinswimmer]

i think he was making a joke about the thread dying off...

[Darren337]

missed the joke again!

[Porkchop Express]

ummm. what do you mean by cold? you getting sick? :confused:

I am sick... but no

I was creating a metaphysical performance where the thread was lost and I no longer had a reason to be… so I started to fade away.

Just like there when I created an opportunity to say the word metaphysical.

[greenrider85]

oh, duh! man i am slow.....

[sinkinswimmer]

it's ok, you're quicker than my sister at least...

[greenrider85]

thankee. i take that as a compliment!!

[asian]

ahhh we have some preeetty slow people here...

[Darren337]

we have all kinds. probably because it takes all kinds.

[Kiechi]

Hm, I may not of made it clear enough of what I'm asking.

"History is objectivly true, therefore it cannot be changed"

Do you agree or disagree with the above statement?

Disregard what the title of the thread is. I'm asking do you agree with the above stament. If yes, please give reasons why and vice versa.

Everyone seems to be getting confused. If you didn't know it's peoples perception of history that makes history, not all this time line crap.

Pipp - No, History is being rewritten. It's controlled media, another part of history that has erased. Media only showing what they want to show the public. So if a bomb did go off and it wasn't documented, or broadcasted. It's a piece of history that has been erased.

[sinkinswimmer]

So you are talking about perception vs. reality. Just so you know, neither side can win this argument, even from a philosophical stand point.

[Darren337]

why not? look at it in a logical way.

the past is what events have happened. history is our record of those events. to change history isnt to change the past, but only to change our records OF the past. if everyone believes that the modified historical records are true, then in blind faith they will assume that the past is what is written in history. yet from the outside we know that this new history is a lie.

[sinkinswimmer]

yes, but then that would essentially just be what was stated earlier. all anyone would need to do to change history is to open a text file. but by kiechi's statement " If you didn't know it's peoples perception of history that makes history, not all this time line crap. " i gather kiechi's going beyond just editing a text document.

[Darren337]

well my editing a text document was just a metaphor. if it were so simple to actually change the events that happened, trust me, there are a few i would have.

[sinkinswimmer]

i'm not doubting that what's been stated, given the current conditions, is true. i'm just trying to point out that on a larger, more broad scale, such an argument couldn't be proven, or disproven.

[Darren337]

i'm not doubting that what's been stated, given the current conditions, is true. i'm just trying to point out that on a larger, more broad scale, such an argument couldn't be proven, or disproven.

then it seems we all still agree.

[Ryudell]

So everone thinks that way, nobody wants to agrue? Heck, this thread will die soon -_-

[Tanpaku]

i shall play the devil's advocate. i disagree, the past can be changed in the mental sense. since the past is based on our perception of events, believing something else happened would change your definition of the past. (like misunderstandings and how people hold grudges) to change the past a person would need to erase all evidence that would prove their statement false. everyone would need to be brainwashed to destroy any contradicting memories.

that being said...
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.

[Kiechi]

i shall play the devil's advocate. i disagree, the past can be changed in the mental sense. since the past is based on our perception of events, believing something else happened would change your definition of the past. (like misunderstandings and how people hold grudges) to change the past a person would need to erase all evidence that would prove their statement false. everyone would need to be brainwashed to destroy any contradicting memories.

that being said...
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.

Ah George orwell, 1984. Very good book.

So you are talking about perception vs. reality. Just so you know, neither side can win this argument, even from a philosophical stand point.

Reality wouldn't come into play with scenario A (Toast), because noone would be aware of the "real" reality, only of what has been told. So in a sense, history has been changed. Do you agree sinkinswimmer?

BTW Wow your the only person on the forum who managed to spell my user correctly. Props to you.

So you are talking about perception vs. reality. Just so you know, neither side can win this argument, even from a philosophical stand point.

No I'm just asking people if they believe the statement to be true or not.

[sinkinswimmer]

i agree. i think i said somewhere in an earlier post that given your definitions and the conditions you mentioned, history could be changed. here's what i was trying to say. take the toast scenario, history (the perception) would be changed, yet the past (reality) would remain unchanged. but with only one side of the story, how could your prove which is correct? that's all i was getting at.

[Kiechi]

i agree. i think i said somewhere in an earlier post that given your definitions and the conditions you mentioned, history could be changed. here's what i was trying to say. take the toast scenario, history (the perception) would be changed, yet the past (reality) would remain unchanged. but with only one side of the story, how could your prove which is correct? that's all i was getting at.

Phew I'm glad someone understood what I was trying to say.

Does anyone disagree with my notion?

[Sgt.Reaper]

History as an event cant be changed. But those who write history is those who surive, like the winners of a war. Those who die cant tell theire version of the event. The surivors will most likly make them self and theire actions look better that they were.
The only correct history is the one the we throught archiological findings and other sientific evidence. Historical writings is not trust worthy, if you want to know what really happend.

[Kiechi]

History as an event cant be changed. But those who write history is those who surive, like the winners of a war. Those who die cant tell theire version of the event. The surivors will most likly make them self and theire actions look better that they were.
The only correct history is the one the we throught archiological findings and other sientific evidence. Historical writings is not trust worthy, if you want to know what really happend.

Because history is subjective.

[Ghost Face Killah]

From what I see, history is a really useless subject.

People expect you to beleive that its there to prevent you from making the mistakes from those in the past. However... From what i've seen so far. People ALWAYS repeat past mistakes.

And no one gives a damn.

The past cannot be changed. The past is past. The only thing that matters is the present, and the future. Its not like you can take a step back and rewind what had just happened. Time doesn't work that way.

[Kiechi]

From what I see, history is a really useless subject.

People expect you to beleive that its there to prevent you from making the mistakes from those in the past. However... From what i've seen so far. People ALWAYS repeat past mistakes.

And no one gives a damn.

The past cannot be changed. The past is past. The only thing that matters is the present, and the future. Its not like you can take a step back and rewind what had just happened. Time doesn't work that way.

Bears no relevance to the topic at hand but... whatever.

[Aj.]

From what I see, history is a really useless subject.

People expect you to beleive that its there to prevent you from making the mistakes from those in the past. However... From what i've seen so far. People ALWAYS repeat past mistakes.

And no one gives a damn.

The past cannot be changed. The past is past. The only thing that matters is the present, and the future. Its not like you can take a step back and rewind what had just happened. Time doesn't work that way.


here here, cant stand learning about the past, theirs absoloutly nothing to look forward to by learning about the past, but people do learn from past mistakes, think you just have to be a select few that care.

on subject, i think its already covered by most people, i agree with anyone who said no the past cant be changed but history can, but made it sound good :)

[ningo]

"History is objectivly true, therefore it cannot be changed"

Do you agree or disagree with the above statement?



Because history is subjective.


The original statement is an interesting choice of words; in particular, the phrase "objectively true"-what do you actually mean by that? Does omitting part of an account of an event make that account "objectively false"? Take the first example, but imagine that our victim had in fact had both cereal and toast for breakfast. If he said he had had toast for breakfast, then he isn't lying, but neither is he telling the whole story; his answer is still "objectively true"; it is only false in a subjective sense. If you were to say that his account was objectively false, then that would imply that any account of any event that was incomplete in any way would be objectively false, which wiould mean that every account must be objectively false, else there is some sort of dividing line from case to case which seperates "objectively true" accounts from "objectively false" accounts;such a line would be subjective, and this would be a contradiction in the term"objectively true".
So to clarify; something is objectively false if it states an event happened which didn't, and is objectively true otherwise. Then the rest of history, once the "objectively true" part is removed, is only people's theories after the event, and the general consensus amongst most people becomes what most people would call "history"; we know that this can, and frequently does change, as more information becomes available. Hence even if history is objectively true (which it sometimes isn't) history can and still will change. So yeah, I disagree with the statement.

[greenrider85]

gahhhhh... i sort of understand. but people who write history, or some or most have biases, so you won't get the bare facts, they will also put in what they believe, which you probably don't care about at all. i am a history major. i like learning about history, you can learn from mistakes that happened before.

[ningo]

Greenrider, I don't disagree with anything you've said...history is mainly subjective; but the question was whether you agree with the statement, and it would have been boring just to say "history isn't objectively true, hence statement false"; that was what i was trying to get at when i posted the two quotes from Kiechi-they are at a first glance contradictory, but you can't say that for sure until you've cleared up what exactly was meant by the original statement;by showing that the statement doesn't hold even if the word "if" is added to the beginning, i was trying to cover all the bases.

[greenrider85]

okay, ummmm................my brain is fried with this thread.

[akari-chan]

No, it can't. What happened has happened. But the future can be changed. Unless you have a time machine, maybe you can change the past.

[Sunfire249]

If you really look at it, if you could really change the past, then you would change all of the mistakes you made, right? But, if you think... If you do that, then you won't be able to gain experience from the mistakes that you've made. Like some random preson said, "Better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all..." So yeah....

[Sahiden]

That wasn't the point of the thread.
We are talking about History as it is written. Not the actual real events that have happenend.
So the question actually is: Is history as it is written in books correct. Did these things really happen that way or are they just fragments that have a subjective touch to them.

My answer: The information is certainly incorrect, history is mainly based on subjective views of people, no one has actually noted things as they happened in an objective view. Most events have even been written down after the actual event anyway. So there are certainly errors in history books.

(The parts dealing about the start of mankind are usually just the part of the Darwin-theory. Which isn't proven at all and shows certain big gaps. The point is that you learn it at school as if either this is the truth, or you learn the religious equivalent of this, creationalism as the true story. Either way both of these theories are simply theories as all theories are: not proven and therefor not real untill it can be proven. So actually school should at least mention that all this is just theoretical and it shouldn't be taken seriously, or at least a bit critical.)

So in that way history is already incorrect. In later events (especially wars) only one side (usually the winners) is writing history. This gives certain errors.
A more recent example is WW1: The USA wrote history-books in a way that the Germans were dangerous agressors and that they should not be taken seriously in any way. The most recent events are in Iraq. Where this has happened again. Certain things are simply forbidden to broadcast on American TV because the American government would look bad because of these reports. This is called Propaganda. It is a simple form of manipulation, in order to make the people support their government. The Germans in WW2 were experts in this thing. Therefor most soldiers didn't even know of Hitlers real plans. If you look in History books you'll see these inconsistencies between 2 editions in diffirent countries.

So history is certainly being written in a way that the government thiks it's best. Concealing the truth is a so-called necessary evil in order to keep Democracy a "true" thing.
(In Belgium we usually think that the American "democracy" isn't a real democracy)


About Time travel and actually changing facts: It's simply impossible. Any form of backwards time travel would mean a paradox. Forward Time travel is only possible at one speed... The speed we live in.
One second at a time.
Time is a constant something. Don't think someone can mess with it.

[kinonai]

That is also true for the Bible. Even if everything in it is the truth, and even if there is a God, there is still a large chance that there are many things in there that are wrong. It was written by a group of people...from their perspectives. As we all know, perspective warps things, and if you write about things years after they happen, you are bound to get at least a few things wrong.

[Sahiden]

The Bible is an even greater uncertainity as most was written down centuries after the actual events.
Most was just passed down in speech. That's why most things in the Bible are stories. The actual meaning of those stories somehow got lost though.

[Ichigo991]

Hmm. While I certainly wish that we could travel back in time and change history(belive me I would love this to happen) but it doesnt semm likely. Because you would have to turn EVERY ATOM IN THE GALAXY at the exact same time and rate, and I cant see a human doing this. Plus you could actually make the world blow up somehow.

Like lets say you SOMEHOW manage to go back in time and, say, try to capture a dinosaur. But maybe that dinosaur was like, I dunno, the ancestor of like George Bush (lol) YOU HAVE JUST SCREWED UP TODAY'S AMERICA! Actually that might be a good thing..... ANYWAY BEHOLD THE BROWN GUY DANCE!! :doindadom

[xdisjpnzkraziix]

i do agree with that statement..the past is then, and that is that..changing the past could put our future in jeopardy..as imperfect as our world is...it is best left as is..besides..we learn from the past..if we were to go back and change it, we would never know and history would repeat itself...that's just my opinion..but if i had the chance, i would like to make changes to my life..in the past i learned life's most valuable lesson..im greatful that i now know..but regret that i didnt relize it before it was too late..and ended up learning it the hard way..but now all i can do for the time being is learn from it and move on..

[Daifuku]

we can change it if u decide to do that... n' yeah maybe there is not but imagine breaking up with someone... u can change it if u have time lol

[Pharcyde]

Of course through perception one can change history, when the Bolsheviks took Over Russia they were trying very hard to destroy all traced of the past, (I.E. book burnings) they partially succeded because there is big holes in Russian History

apparently something screwed up in my post so i apologise for double posting if i do. when The Bolsheviks took over russia they tried to destroy all of history, through book burnings and whatnot, and because of this there are holes in russian history. so it can be changed, but at the same time some one will always know what happened and it can be passed down by word of mouth, but that becomes altered

[Cirue]

You can't CHANGE the past but you can make up for it.

IE. You hit someone. You can give them money. (I know it's a crappy example but my mind went blank)

[Sahiden]

You can't CHANGE the past but you can make up for it.

IE. You hit someone. You can give them money. (I know it's a crappy example but my mind went blank)

That wasn't the point of the thread....
Nobody here discusses time paradox. This was just a small history discussion, that's all.

[Sgt.Reaper]

I cannot be changed It goes agains the laws of physics.(dont ask why, please)

Only the interpretaion of past events can change but not the actual event.

[Sahiden]

I cannot be changed It goes agains the laws of physics.(dont ask why, please)

Not the point of the thread.


Only the interpretaion of past events can change but not the actual event.

yes, that's exactly what this thread IS about. History books are wrong because of the fact that it's written in viewpoints.

[Tokoyami]

The terms history and past in this thread arent defined well. History is a record, not just on paper, but in our memories, in the earth (craters, valleys and such), in our computers, etc. Kept both mentally, physically (a scar or maybe a physical mark on the earth, I.E. craters) and now in time, digitally.

The past is what exactly happened, the actual happenings of a moment in time. Not a record.

I watched an anime called serial experiments lain. A very strange but thought provoking anime. At one point a statement was made saying this. "If we erase our memories then its like the past never happened at all". Which means, if we erase History, the records like our memories, digital datas, written documents, etc, its like the past never happened. Now if we were to do that, that wouldnt mean that the past still happened. But it wouldnt influence us in anyway. If we erased all evidence mentally physically and digitally. Then the past would no longer influence our lives. But that doesnt mean the past never occured.

To answer a question thats been subconcously floating around this thread,
the past cannot be changed by changing history, which is just a record.

The only way the past could physicaly be changed is through time travel, but how in the world we kno today could you rewind all the movements of the world to changed a detail in the past.

[Sandal Hat]

If the world was like photoshop you could just hit the undo button

[Tokoyami]

If the world was like photoshop you could just hit the undo button
Man would it be cool to have one of those.

[noraa]

History cannot be changed. :)

[Tokoyami]

History cannot be changed. :)

History is just a record, like if u delete the history on your internet, except in the real world its a little bit more complicated than clicking a button. But u cant delete the past.

[General Cox]

I watched an anime called serial experiments lain. A very strange but thought provoking anime. At one point a statement was made saying this. "If we erase our memories then its like the past never happened at all". Which means, if we erase History, the records like our memories, digital datas, written documents, etc, its like the past never happened. Now if we were to do that, that wouldnt mean that the past still happened. But it wouldnt influence us in anyway. If we erased all evidence mentally physically and digitally. Then the past would no longer influence our lives. But that doesnt mean the past never occured.

sounds a bit like Big O, where they all have there memories erased and a few are searching to find out what was so bad about the past

I'm devided on this, surely we would know if someone had gone back and changed the past because we are currently living in the past to them, or something like that :eek13: But then at the same time, how would we know that wasnt the way it was meant to be?

I thought Dragonball Z had an interesting way of putting it, when future trunks comes back he doesnt change his own timeline but changes the timeline for the people who are living in the point 20 years behind him

[Apocalypse]

Look at the universe as an expanding super sphere. The universe is ever-expanding, correct? As such, each layer corresponds to a particular time, in a theoretical sense. To better explain, our known universe is the SURFACE of the super sphere. It increases in time, thus expanding the super sphere, or the surface area of the universe. In other words, that is our dimension. The dimension of "time" is said to be accessible by delving INSIDE the super sphere, for that is where DIFFERENT versions of the universe, at an earlier time, can be found. By changing something that makes up the universe at a particular time in the super sphere, that change could cause one of two possible events:

Catastrophic destruction of the future, for the recreation of a NEW future.
- This would occur because the future in all of the above times would not be entirely correct. Since not correct, they might cease to exist in order to make a more-correct future exist. In this case, traveling to the past is only possible... future travel would lead beyond the current surface of the super sphere, making you lost in a void beyond time.

A seperate branch is made, two super spheres coexist.
- This basically means that a new future is made, but it coexists on a different demensional plane than the original "future". In a sense, this could be happening ALL THE TIME. Possibly leading to multiple "dimensions", as one might call it. Regardless, this means that the future can be altered, but it would not directly effect the future you came from. If a new super sphere is made though, it will be relatively smaller, thus meaning travel to THAT future would be impossible. Meaning the future results could not immediately be seen.

I'll... uh.. end that there for now...

...hope this makes sense to someone... :eek13:

[Sahiden]

It's probably wrong.... Your starting point, "the universe is ever expanding" isn't proven. Moreoverly it is more than likely that the universe has only 1 never-altering size. It does appear to be expanding from Human point of view, as the stars are moving further away from each other.
Yet this constantly moving has been alternatly proven by the effects of black holes. (everything is all twirley because of those, the galaxy, which is also turning and where all out 'nearby' stars are, is actually turning because of a black hole that lies in the center. This has been proven.)

The other theory is: The universe does expand, only to shrink at a certain point. As nothing can expand infinitely.

In either points of view, time travel as you described is impossible. For travelling through time, as described as fourth dimension travel, would be dimensional travelling, not time travel.
The point that in another dimension, everything is the same, exept for the aspect time, that is at an earlier point than the dimension you came from, is absurd. The chance is real, but no bigger than finding an exact replica of Earth in our dimension of the Universe.
You also have to see the matter of the time paradox. And the principe of "there can't be twice the same mass in one place"
also when you do travel through time, you'll automatically will bring more mass along than there was at that specific time. This can have a number of effects. One involves you defragmentating as there is a solid number of matter in the universe, one involves the whole system adapting to you, but more likely, it would end up being something like a forum error. (if there are more people than the connection can handle, the server will fail, creating random errors to all people.)
This would flaw the design of the universe (if it ever was designed that is, but that isn't for this thread), creating another impossibility.

Also, if multiple instances of the universe would be created by the process, there would no longer be an universe, but then we would get a multiverse, yet in one Universe, there will always be a person that keeps going back in time, because the situation never changes in that Universe. Then this will create an infinite number of spheres in the multiverse. Which is once again, impossible.

The final is the idea of an adaptive universe, this would include some kind of backup. Let's say if you would be able to really create a time-paradox and you actually manage to create one, but the universe would be adaptive, and sort the error out of it's system, breaking the loop by making matter equal once again. This will annihilate one version of the universe and all that was in it. And it will just start from the point where it went wrong. There will be a minor gap, but who would notice if it all would be created perfect.
Yet again this is theoretical.

The most possible theoretical thing about time travel is probably this, it's impossible.
Or, Time travel is possible, but only as a spectral observer, so Time Alteration is impossible. It would be the way to find out all about the universe without the ability of corrupting it.

Anyway, the point of the thread was, is it possible to alter historic writings, aren't the things we learn with history and such, wrong, because it can be fake.

[shikitohno]

"History is objectivly true, therefore it cannot be changed"

Do you agree or disagree with the above statement?

(Only serious members reply, I don't want this thread hijacked)

Aside from time travel, no, I don't believe it can really be changed. But, certain events can be almost entirely forgotten, and others important things can be removed based on the political/religious stance of the people who happen to be in power at the moment.

False histories are fabricated all the time, because it's a very convenient way to gain support for an otherwise unpopular cause. This is a tool mostly used by people or groups that need to justify something they are doing. When Russia was trying to kill off all its Jewish citizens, they used propaganda as historical facts. Look into a book called The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It offered a very warped look at world history, and so changed history.

Another quote to take into consideration in this discussion:"History is written by the victorious." The historical accounts of the losers are very rarely studied, and the victors will do their best to cast their own actions in a positive light. If Hitler had won WWII, you would learn it from the perspective of the Axis powers being good and just, and the Allies being evil scumbags. However, he lost, so history has been reversed. But should anyone who agrees with him rise to power, history would be changed so as to make the Axis powers look significantly better.

So, I guess the truth of history depends upon the honesty of the historian recording it.

[General Cox]

The way i think the universe is being explained atm, this might be old and outdated, but in the beginning there was a huge star, more massive than the galaxies. When this star collapsed, because it was so big, material went everywhere, also ceating a black hole. Now all the galaxies are sent shooting out and the planets and stars etc are formed and we get to where we are now. At some point the black hole from the origional star is meant to start realing us back in. I think they showed the universe is expanding form a certain point and that its growth is slowing down, cant remember how though. At some point everything will come back together at that point again, recreating that star again, and the process will happen again. I could be more scientific but i cant be bothered to root through google atm :P

And yes history can be changed, notice how it is always the victor who writes history because the loser is not there to write about it? Whats to say they havent changed anything?

[Tokoyami]

Aside from time travel, no, I don't believe it can really be changed. But, certain events can be almost entirely forgotten, and others important things can be removed based on the political/religious stance of the people who happen to be in power at the moment.

False histories are fabricated all the time, because it's a very convenient way to gain support for an otherwise unpopular cause. This is a tool mostly used by people or groups that need to justify something they are doing. When Russia was trying to kill off all its Jewish citizens, they used propaganda as historical facts. Look into a book called The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It offered a very warped look at world history, and so changed history.

Another quote to take into consideration in this discussion:"History is written by the victorious." The historical accounts of the losers are very rarely studied, and the victors will do their best to cast their own actions in a positive light. If Hitler had won WWII, you would learn it from the perspective of the Axis powers being good and just, and the Allies being evil scumbags. However, he lost, so history has been reversed. But should anyone who agrees with him rise to power, history would be changed so as to make the Axis powers look significantly better.

So, I guess the truth of history depends upon the honesty of the historian recording it.


Everything is like that, everything can be perceived one way or another. To us what hitler did was wrong. But to him, his ideas were rightous. it all depends on your point of view.

This super sphere thing. i think i understand it. i beileive that can be true. lol its alot to take in at once. :sad:

[Bleached]

The reasons why you can't ever go back in time are because you would see yourself which means in your time before that you would of seen yourself and its like a circle and if you dont see yourself then that wouldnt make sense because where would you of been? In the time machine? Then where would the you before that of been...another cirle.. the reason you couldn't go forward to the future is because you would be needed to make the future you couldn't just disappear...another thing , just because someone deletes something from history doesnt make it not happen .. it still happened but people wont know... if i ripped up every history book it wouldnt make everything go back in time and make history not happen somehow...i dunno...

[General Cox]

thats because someone else will have the same history book :P

im talking about things that happen pretty much one on one, or by powerful people that have won whatever was happing. It happens before the history books are written normally, although the romans i think did burn histories of other cultures. Maybe some ancient history was changed in them that we never got to see....

[Sahiden]

The reasons why you can't ever go back in time are because you would see yourself which means in your time before that you would of seen yourself and its like a circle and if you dont see yourself then that wouldnt make sense because where would you of been? In the time machine? Then where would the you before that of been...another cirle.. the reason you couldn't go forward to the future is because you would be needed to make the future you couldn't just disappear...another thing , just because someone deletes something from history doesnt make it not happen .. it still happened but people wont know... if i ripped up every history book it wouldnt make everything go back in time and make history not happen somehow...i dunno...

The principe of Time Paradox and more matter than is possible in the same Space.
This is a pricipe that lies close to the teleportation paradox (also needed for time travel). The point about them is, as long as no one answers these seemingly impossible questions, the act is deemed impossible.

Manipulation of history books is easy, e.g. In American history, the history books were altered to make WWII a quest of good vs evil. Making Axis seem wrong along the whole line. (basis class about propaganda)
In European History books however, WWII is portrayed like a propaganda war, where both Axis and Allies did the same, making their own cause the better one. While Axis desired a better world in the first place (Main German idea, they were really poor.) But their leader Hitler, obviously was mentally deranged, there is no better race...
In our history books, the Atom bombs dropped on Japanese cities are described as a cowardly attack without any honor. (The idea of the united nations, a few months later an attack that went against everything that the idea stood for.)

Dunno if the histroy books have been revised in America since then.
The funny thing is, everyone hates Hitler more than Stalin, while Stalin killed far more people and was just as insane...

[Tokoyami]

The principe of Time Paradox and more matter than is possible in the same Space.
This is a pricipe that lies close to the teleportation paradox (also needed for time travel). The point about them is, as long as no one answers these seemingly impossible questions, the act is deemed impossible.

Manipulation of history books is easy, e.g. In American history, the history books were altered to make WWII a quest of good vs evil. Making Axis seem wrong along the whole line. (basis class about propaganda)
In European History books however, WWII is portrayed like a propaganda war, where both Axis and Allies did the same, making their own cause the better one. While Axis desired a better world in the first place (Main German idea, they were really poor.) But their leader Hitler, obviously was mentally deranged, there is no better race...
In our history books, the Atom bombs dropped on Japanese cities are described as a cowardly attack without any honor. (The idea of the united nations, a few months later an attack that went against everything that the idea stood for.)

Dunno if the histroy books have been revised in America since then.
The funny thing is, everyone hates Hitler more than Stalin, while Stalin killed far more people and was just as insane...

Exactly, Histoy is just a record, a record mad according to the writer or viewers veiwpoint. It can be changed but the past cannot. Well unless u have time travel.

:eek13: *has an idea*

The whole time paradox thing, we've been talkin about how there cant be anymore matter in the universe than already exists, or any less. Now if the universe works on this equation, and also acts somewhat like a Program, Then wouldnt it make sense to say, if we went back in time, we would take the place of a similar being in that time period. Say an ancestor, or relative, and if in the right period, even ourselves. Kind of how when you move a file from a folder with an identical folder, your computer either replaces the identical file, or does not allow the file into the folder.

this is all metaphorically speaking of course....

[Sahiden]

That is the principe of the same matter in the same space... It's probably impossible to take the form of an ancestor as their personality is their own. You can't take over anyone's personality in the same time as now, so certainly it also isn't possible in the past.

The time paradox is the eternal loop you get when travelling backwards through time.

[Tokoyami]

That is the principe of the same matter in the same space... It's probably impossible to take the form of an ancestor as their personality is their own. You can't take over anyone's personality in the same time as now, so certainly it also isn't possible in the past.

The time paradox is the eternal loop you get when travelling backwards through time.

Your personality is a result of your mind. Your mind, brain, is made of matter. There for the matter would be replaced. If only for a set period of time.

[General Cox]

even if it is possible wouldnt we know that someone had come back from the future?

wouldnt it be more than likely for them to have left something advanced behind or be seen and be known not to be from this time?

[Sahiden]

Your personality is a result of your mind. Your mind, brain, is made of matter. There for the matter would be replaced. If only for a set period of time.

You see... That isn't proven either. As a personality exists before the brains have fully developed.
Therefor it's not a cause-result kind of thing.
I've observed this when my baby brother was born... It's really creepy.

If you would be at least 1% of a believer you would at least believe that personality is a part of the soul, which isn't physical.

Replacing matter... isn't really possible... Because then the other person would end up in your body, making return impossible, unless you're gonna make a new time machine before the research even existed.

There are too many gaps, and paradoxes to make time travel even theoretically possible. So the closest guess to the truth is probably it's either impossible or nearly impossible to archieve.

[Tokoyami]

You see... That isn't proven either. As a personality exists before the brains have fully developed.
Therefor it's not a cause-result kind of thing.
I've observed this when my baby brother was born... It's really creepy.

If you would be at least 1% of a believer you would at least believe that personality is a part of the soul, which isn't physical.

Replacing matter... isn't really possible... Because then the other person would end up in your body, making return impossible, unless you're gonna make a new time machine before the research even existed.

There are too many gaps, and paradoxes to make time travel even theoretically possible. So the closest guess to the truth is probably it's either impossible or nearly impossible to archieve.


I didnt want to involve religion to much in this topic, it can add to many factors. Religion is faith or beleif.

I kno its not proven, a theory is not a proven statement, its just an idea, when a theory is proven then it is no longer a theory, as it becomes law.

That is my theory to answer the question of there being to much matter in the universe if u were to travel back in time. But as i think about it, maybe u would replace someone, maybe your existence would take the place of matter scattered through out the universe. I just beleive if u came back in time, your atoms would take the place of others, even if only for a second.

[Sahiden]

Basically you're saying you would travel back in time, even if it needed to take other people's lives in order to perform it.

I made serious errors in my life... But I wouldn't sacrifice a single soul to go back to the moment it all started.

Before a theory becomes law, it often becomes a hypothesis: A theory that is virtually possible, but can't yet be proven by Humans.

Why would it sacrifice Human lives... Because it might possible to manipulate matter on a small scale, but in order of altering that person to your own self, his particles would get scattered, and the person can't be rebuilt. A machine that influences the matter of the WHOLE universe is maybe a little bit not meant for Humans...
(It would get abused anyway...)

Even if the matter problem would be solved (in a gruesome way... But any solution is a solution.), there still is the time paradox. If you went back and changed the world, then there would never be a you that invented a time machine to fix something. If that is so, then you never jumped back and you never changed anything, so the world would still become something you wanted to fix.... (keeps looping)
And even if the time paradox would get solved (good luck, they're called paradoxes for a reason) There still is the teleportation paradox. Which is a bit more, 'realistic'.

[Tokoyami]

Basically you're saying you would travel back in time, even if it needed to take other people's lives in order to perform it.

I made serious errors in my life... But I wouldn't sacrifice a single soul to go back to the moment it all started.

Before a theory becomes law, it often becomes a hypothesis: A theory that is virtually possible, but can't yet be proven by Humans.

Why would it sacrifice Human lives... Because it might possible to manipulate matter on a small scale, but in order of altering that person to your own self, his particles would get scattered, and the person can't be rebuilt. A machine that influences the matter of the WHOLE universe is maybe a little bit not meant for Humans...
(It would get abused anyway...)

Even if the matter problem would be solved (in a gruesome way... But any solution is a solution.), there still is the time paradox. If you went back and changed the world, then there would never be a you that invented a time machine to fix something. If that is so, then you never jumped back and you never changed anything, so the world would still become something you wanted to fix.... (keeps looping)
And even if the time paradox would get solved (good luck, they're called paradoxes for a reason) There still is the teleportation paradox. Which is a bit more, 'realistic'.

:doindadom <----- he's sooooo cool

Thats not what i meant, you would take there place in that time period, but when u left, the person who's place you took would return. Not just wiping that person out of existence. And some changes would be drastic, but not every change would effect the future so that you wouldnt be there. Also, you wouldnt have to take the place of another human, your molecules could take the place of other molecules in the galaxy and universe, not just one human being.

Also, i didnt make my theory to solve the time paradox, i made it just to solve the issue of there being to much matter in the universe at one time.

[Sahiden]

You solved the matter thingy. But what you would build is a machine that manipulates ALL the matter in the universe. It would be so easy to abuse.

[General Cox]

Basically you're saying you would travel back in time, even if it needed to take other people's lives in order to perform it.

I made serious errors in my life... But I wouldn't sacrifice a single soul to go back to the moment it all started.

Before a theory becomes law, it often becomes a hypothesis: A theory that is virtually possible, but can't yet be proven by Humans.

Why would it sacrifice Human lives... Because it might possible to manipulate matter on a small scale, but in order of altering that person to your own self, his particles would get scattered, and the person can't be rebuilt. A machine that influences the matter of the WHOLE universe is maybe a little bit not meant for Humans...
(It would get abused anyway...)

Even if the matter problem would be solved (in a gruesome way... But any solution is a solution.), there still is the time paradox. If you went back and changed the world, then there would never be a you that invented a time machine to fix something. If that is so, then you never jumped back and you never changed anything, so the world would still become something you wanted to fix.... (keeps looping)
And even if the time paradox would get solved (good luck, they're called paradoxes for a reason) There still is the teleportation paradox. Which is a bit more, 'realistic'.

But would that soul really be sacrificed? When you went back you would change the future wouldnt you? you wouldnt have to go back in time to sort out those problems because you have already gone back and changed it.

The thing would get so abused its not even funny, i wouldnt ever want there to be a time machine because of the damage it would do to the timeline.

Also scares me about computers that learn and stuff to become something like in the matrix and that film will smith was in

[Tokoyami]

You solved the matter thingy. But what you would build is a machine that manipulates ALL the matter in the universe. It would be so easy to abuse.


lol, i was going for the universe would manipulate the matter, and we would just travel from time to time, taking the place of molecules in the time period for a moment. But yea, it would be abused, and the results could be catastrophic.

Shit, i would use it to slap someone, over and over again. I mean wouldnt that be fun?

[Sahiden]

You could do that....
Or you could conquer the world.

[Tokoyami]

You could do that....
Or you could conquer the world.
:angry: or go super saiyan.

honestly, i dont think you can travel through time. It would create to an loopholes and crap. In any event, i dont beleive the past can be changed. :eek13:

[ningo]

And lo, history has been rewritten on club bleach! Perhaps i can't read, but I can't find any trace of the infamous "Scientific proof that men are superior to women" thread...I can't say I agree with destroying all trace of it...may I ask which mod/admin carried out the dastardly deed?
[edit]
Ok, it's in the recycle bin, I see now. I'd still like to know who dumped the thread, and why. There wasn't anything in the thread that was unsuitable for minors to read, and as it was in the debate section, shouldn't have been closed for containing inflammatory remarks...people are entitled to their views( even if they are prejudiced), so long as they express them politely.

[Sahiden]

It became quite insulting and caused more flaming among members than it did anything good. I kinda ignited a flame there by posting that piece I read in the newspaper about some research on the topic. So I asked an admin to remove the thread.

[Sandal Hat]

And lo, history has been rewritten on club bleach! Perhaps i can't read, but I can't find any trace of the infamous "Scientific proof that men are superior to women" thread...I can't say I agree with destroying all trace of it...may I ask which mod/admin carried out the dastardly deed?
[edit]
Ok, it's in the recycle bin, I see now. I'd still like to know who dumped the thread, and why. There wasn't anything in the thread that was unsuitable for minors to read, and as it was in the debate section, shouldn't have been closed for containing inflammatory remarks...people are entitled to their views( even if they are prejudiced), so long as they express them politely.I know,ask Tammy! :)

[Sahiden]

I think Lunatic get's the credit on this one. (I Pm'd him because he was online at the time.)

[ningo]

It became quite insulting and caused more flaming among members than it did anything good. That maybe so, but then the members flaming are at fault, and not the thread itself;hence the members' posts should have been moderated, not the thread. As previously stated, if in the debates section, something shouldn't be closed for being inflammatory...everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if that is prejudiced. People may not even argue from their own viewpoint...they might stick their neck out and say something outragrous, just to spice up the debate. But if it's in the debates section, then more or less anything goes...so long as it is suitable for minors to see...which previous thread was.
If this isn't seen as the case, could somebody please put up a rules sticky for the debate section...I mean it is inherently different from the other sections...the whole section is based around disagreement, so some pointers would be nice as to how far we can take it.

[Sahiden]

The thread was dead anyway... It was my fault it got re-ignited and I cleaned up my mistake. That's all.

[General Cox]

i actually think most of us are glad its dead tbh, anywho arent we kinda breaking the rules by not talking about the subject of this topic? So time travel eh?.....

[Tokoyami]

i actually think most of us are glad its dead tbh, anywho arent we kinda breaking the rules by not talking about the subject of this topic? So time travel eh?.....

Lol, but i think this topic is pretty much dead, unless someone has some interesting theories on how time travel could be possible. Or how to solve the many loopholes it could cause. That was we could talk about if its possible to change the past.

Which i think its not.

[Sahiden]

I'm pretty sure it's impossible. (Unless the universe is a game....)

[General Cox]

i dont think it is either, we would know surely if someone had gone back in time, you wouldnt just not notice something appearing would you

[Sahiden]

No, you wouldn't notice.... Because if it happened before you actually existed, then it never had been diffirent to you. Only the traveller would know the diffirence.

[Tokoyami]

Well maybe you would notice, the mind works in ways we dont understand. Like a mother knowing her child is in danger even though she physically can see or hear her child.

[General Cox]

i think the people who were living at the time would notice, like a huge ball (the time device) turns up in the middle of a strete, think id notice that

[Sahiden]

Yeah, but how long till it's forgotten. You can't remember it forever.

[General Cox]

im sorry i dont have a big exciting like but id remember for my whole life if something just appeared out in the middle of my street, plus if there was someone who went back in time surely more would follow?

[Tokoyami]

im sorry i dont have a big exciting like but id remember for my whole life if something just appeared out in the middle of my street, plus if there was someone who went back in time surely more would follow?

What do u mean more would follow?

[General Cox]

well if one person could time travel, then more would follow, and it wouldnt just be from one time either, they could come back from all of time to any point! its like going to the moon once they sent the first lot up there they sent another few to make sure, and another.......

and one day itll probably be the same as flying from edinburgh to london and probably take about the same time too

thats what time travel (if it does happen) will be like in the future, the family guy movie does it quite well actually

[Tokoyami]

well if one person could time travel, then more would follow, and it wouldnt just be from one time either, they could come back from all of time to any point! its like going to the moon once they sent the first lot up there they sent another few to make sure, and another.......

and one day itll probably be the same as flying from edinburgh to london and probably take about the same time too

thats what time travel (if it does happen) will be like in the future, the family guy movie does it quite well actually

lol, peter with time travel, i have to see that.

O i understand. I would hope if we figured it out that the government wouldnt make it so public, and only use it in case of a apocalypse like emergency.

[jagged]

Ok excluding time travel i would say that the only way to truly change your history is to know or predict your future. Many people change there lives this way its natural but its the matter of what if i did make the other choice and trying to see what your parallel decision might have done to your life. Such people as Saddam Hussein and Hitler Stalin and ghengis Khan, are all good examples of history that is remembered and changed through their own decisions. They changed there normal human selves in to giant super tyrants of this world because they wished to be remembered and live through history. cuz truly who do u remember more the good guys or the bad.

Excluding Ghandi...

[Tokoyami]

I havent thought about ghandi since the 5th grade......

Its true that most remember the bad more than the good. But i fail to understand what u mean by knowing our future to change our past.

EDIT: i mean if we know our future according to a decision we make, then we can change the future and alter our destiny. But i dont see how that will affect the past.

[jagged]

This effects our past by forseeing what decisions we make in the future. For example you make the choice of being a politician instead of computer technician cuz u like it. You then start growing in the political ranks and eventually become the leader of your country.... now you never really forsee this far but its a different history then becoming a computer techy and not really being remembered in our history thats changing your future and your past. The future is really no different then your past just ones not for certain ( I hope you have the intelligence to know that the future is uncertain). No insults but they both are relating contrasting time periods.

Times complicated though... so its hard to understand on how a person thinks so dont think about it too hard science can be wrong and theories can be false.

[Tokoyami]

I dont think thats correct. You cant change the past by seeing the future. From your example, it wuld seem this would help you choose a path torwards the future. But not change anything you did before your saw the future of a choice.

[m4jqp]

go play chrono trigger :P

[Polygon]

You can't change the past. If you had a time machine you could alter it from what you lived through.If you somehow manage to make it different it still isn't changing the past, because it hasn't been changed even if you have lived another reality.

[Sahiden]

go play chrono trigger :P

Refferation to a game isn't a good thing in this case. Because Chrono trigger doesn't follow the paradoxal theory. (basically, the game does have the paradox when you think about it. But the creators didn't bother to try to solve the paradox... The game was good, but certainly unrealistic.)

I haven't tried to explain this a whole lot (mainly because it's even harder than the "Does God exist" topic.) (and I'm still not going to go theoritically based)
But I'll try making a point now in this topic. (I hope I'm not gonna kill it)

Time travel is impossible, as long as the paradox is in effect.
The problem with a paradox is, that it's (almost in some cases) impossible to solve. So the point isn't how to solve the paradox, but how to evade it.

1) The Universe is a game, with a preset past and an alterating future.
If all of this is a game, then nothing is impossible. You only have to rewrite the code of the past while preserving your own program code in the system.(Though it may give bugs to the program.)
This would be a simple solution, but it's very very unlikely.

2) Time is a 4 dimensional circle.
If you would have a 4D circle, then you can travel through time. Because Time loops. An alteration would make the circle delete a parallel universe, and write your altered version in it's place. Once the loop is done. Everything will revert.
(I'm not explaining it on a higher level, as it would probably be too confusing. I read it in a scientific magazine in Belgium. I hardly understood the theoretical stuff around it.)

3) Time doesn't exist.
If there is no time, but every moment is a preset shard of momentum. Then Time travel is possible. Altering it, isn't hard either, as every possibility already exists.

4) Time travel is possible, but altering isn't. Because the future is preset.
The great "Fate" theory, what if humans don't have free will. But just go along with their preset paths. Once again, travelling through time would be a preset event. So the line never gous back. It just CP's to go onwards.

5) Time is a being.
What if time isn't an object, but a non-matter sentient being.
You could travel through time, by becoming a being loose from time, as time itself would be. Alteration is exactly the same then. (Q:What about all the bad things happening then... A:What if the being is a sadist.)

All of these, are HIGHLY unlikely. But I made at least 5 points. Which "can" (I'm not saying "I" will) be theoretically explained. (Yes there are more than 5 solutions... I'm not gonna post all of them. (Dunno on "all" of the current theories.)
Once again: I DO NOT BELIEVE A SINGLE ONE OF THESE. Don't try flaming me or something. As this isn't my opinion on the subject. (I still go from the point.. It's impossible, unless some absurd theory would be true.)

[NykylaiHellray]

O.o why does this thread seem very pointless.

No history cannot be changed without the means of time travel, or rewritting a history book, to put it under another view.

E.g. someone finds proof that atlantis existed, damn we have to rewrite history.


That and time travel is the only way to change history, without either it is quite impossible.


Ok now thats talk about time travel, like Sahiden started to explain.

Now if you look at it as say a 4d shape from the outside, it is obvious to see in all aspects it is complete.
Meaning time in a 3d universe is allready written, creating the idea of no free will. Which means by going into the past, you will mearly be doing what has allready happened.

e.g. say you want to kill hg wells, you go back in time, try to kill him, though you **** up and get put in jail. HG wells visits and wants to know why you tried to kill him, you tell him about time travel etc. He writes book the time machine.

There is another theroy on time travel i am writting, though is different from all conventional theroies, which makes a way to avoid the paradox in a fashion, though this is to be still explored. I will post it if anybody is interested.

[8davryu suno8]

Nope.. it cant ;)... too tired to debate, still not debateable that much.. depends on the person ur debating with alot too..; also, its not a tilting matter^^

[Tokoyami]

O.o why does this thread seem very pointless.

No history cannot be changed without the means of time travel, or rewritting a history book, to put it under another view.

E.g. someone finds proof that atlantis existed, damn we have to rewrite history.


That and time travel is the only way to change history, without either it is quite impossible.


Ok now thats talk about time travel, like Sahiden started to explain.

Now if you look at it as say a 4d shape from the outside, it is obvious to see in all aspects it is complete.
Meaning time in a 3d universe is allready written, creating the idea of no free will. Which means by going into the past, you will mearly be doing what has allready happened.

e.g. say you want to kill hg wells, you go back in time, try to kill him, though you **** up and get put in jail. HG wells visits and wants to know why you tried to kill him, you tell him about time travel etc. He writes book the time machine.

There is another theroy on time travel i am writting, though is different from all conventional theroies, which makes a way to avoid the paradox in a fashion, though this is to be still explored. I will post it if anybody is interested.


Man wtf is up with yur avatar.....
No history cannot be changed without the means of time travel, or rewritting a history book, to put it under another view.

No PAST can be changed, history is just a record kept, not a demension or point in time.

im not sure i udnerstand the whole 4d thing, i'll look into it tho.

But Sahiden.....

If you would have a 4D circle, then you can travel through time. Because Time loops. An alteration would make the circle delete a parallel universe, and write your altered version in it's place. Once the loop is done. Everything will revert.

can u explain it in more detail for me? or send me a ppersonal message or link about it?

[NykylaiHellray]

excel saga ^_____^

[Tokoyami]

uhhh i think u posted on the wrong thread..

[Sahiden]

The 4D circle thing was in a magazine... I don't think I can remember the details. (Heck, it was a 2 pages long explication)
I dunno if i can find this on the internet..

[NykylaiHellray]

rok u asked what the hell was up with my avatar, and i replied it is excel saga ^^

[Tokoyami]

rok u asked what the hell was up with my avatar, and i replied it is excel saga ^^

o........ :redbiggri i knew that