New oil find, should we pull out of the middle east?

[Mashu-truth seeker]

With the new find by Chevron in the Gulf, it should raise America's oil reserves by 50%. Along with the proposition that all of the coal industry could generate enough diesel fuel to power the trucking industry in the U.S. effectivly leaving the oil for Gas-only fuel production.

In the near future, supposedly, we'll be able to become sufficient without the need for foreign middle east oil, so, the question, should we pull out of the middle east, or stay?

Personally I think we should pull out, I'm a liberal, and before the war I felt that tyranny and dictatorship were the reasons for the constant violence in that region. However after 3 years of this I'm starting to realize that nothing will be able to stop their hatred for each other or us. Religious zealotry and blind fear have made me realize they can't be helped and that we're wasting billions of dollars on a battle we can't win, and with the current finds I think we should pull out of the region COMPLETLY, if they can't help themselves, or, don't want to, then let them be, I'm tired of the world attempting to help solve their problems for them.

Discuss

[Hisaki]

We should pull out, most certainly, but we won't. The biggest pull of Middle Eastern oil is the Petro-Dollar Recycling system; the oil trade is conducted entirely in dollars. Since other nations can't print dollars, they're in a bind as far as oil goes. Let's take Japan as an example... They need oil, so they sell us a car, and we give them money... Now to buy oil, they have to give those dollars back to us. Essentially, the entire Middle East is one gigantic credit card for the United States.

Because of this system, 70% of Saudi Arabia's wealth is in one bank account in New York. It's dumbfounding when you think about it. If we can increase our own oil production, great; that's more money that we can get.

Also, Saudi Arabia has begun considering making a switch from selling oil in dollars to selling it in Euros. This would devastate us, since we would need to sell products to Europe to be able to buy oil, and our economy would quickly collapse, as our economy, relative to our nation's size and productivity, is vastly disproportionate. Iraq also switched to the Euro a few months before we invaded... Curiosly, when we overthrew the Saddam regime, the oil currency switched back to dollars. But since the Euro is worth more than the dollar, Iraq consequently took a loss of 25% in its economy.

Simply put, oil is too precious a resource for the United States to be able to ignore. If we leave the Middle East alone, and they switch to Euros, our economy is doomed. Naturally, I don't support military action against other countries, nor do I think the system is particularly fair... But those in power have abused this system since the 60s, and the invasion of Iraq may be taken as a sign that they're prepared to go to whatever lengths they need to in order to maintain it.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Oh I agree, but the whole thing is we may be able to become self sufficient, not even needing to be dependent on their oil. If anything their the ones whos economy would collapse, except that China now has as much need for oil as we do. Saudi would just switch to selling it to china. We actually don't get the majority of our oil from them anyway, Venezuela is our big oil friend.

But I also don't think we'll pull out, theres to much time, effort and money we have 'invested' over there to simply drop everything. I can't imagine how many rigs/trucks/and people we'd have to pull back, which would mean lost jobs and, yes, a drop in our economy, but soon something will need to be done because we're only digging ourselves deeper and deeper. If a hit to our economy is needed to remove ourselves from that region than so be it.

We need to stop worrying about every OTHER country and start doing something about our own. With the amount of foreign aid we chuck out its amazing we're even still alive as a country, with the health care system, social security and fuel crisis as bad as they are. I guess I'm just tired of the world expecting us to carry them on our backs for the rest of their lives or until we crumble beneath the weight.

[Habanero]

Excuse me...

"I guess I'm just tired of the world expecting us to carry them on our backs for the rest of their lives or until we crumble beneath the weight."

The rest of the world thinks pretty much that you (U.S) keep poking your nose to anywhere it doesn't belong. Do you think that by waging wars in middle-east (because of oil I may add) you're helping somebody? You should be taking a little more critical point of view on U.S's, and particularly Bush's doings.

[Nihsnek]

Battle we can't win????? Last time I checked, Iraq is a free country. Iraq is now a democracy. Iraq is not controlled by a man with 2million deaths on his name. Yes, there may still be some terrorism here and there, but can't you see we are winning?

Also, if your a liberal, then you obviously know about the oil in Alaska. Which left-wingers won't let us get. Why? Who knows.

[Hisaki]

Battle we can't win????? Last time I checked, Iraq is a free country. Iraq is now a democracy. Iraq is not controlled by a man with 2million deaths on his name. Yes, there may still be some terrorism here and there, but can't you see we are winning?

Also, if your a liberal, then you obviously know about the oil in Alaska. Which left-wingers won't let us get. Why? Who knows.

Actually, if we completely exhausted the oil fields in Alaska, we'd get about 13 billion barrels of oil, at about 42 gallons per barrel, for a total of 546 billion gallons of oil. On average, the United States burns about 360 million gallons of oil per day. Since you need a few gallons of oil to make one gallon of gasoline... The supply of oil in Alaska won't last more than two months, and it will cause incredible amounts of damage to an ecosystem already ravaged by oil spills.

As for the situation in Iraq, well, that's a debate for another thread. Though a nation breaking down into civil war and almost entirely lacking electricity or running water doesn't seem like a victory to me.

[MazdaRxEight]

not anytime soon, the oil found wont be usable until 3 to 4 years from now

they got 5 miles of earth to dig and a 1mile of water in between.

but i think we should get out anyways...

[Mashu-truth seeker]

mmm, thanks Hisaki, I don't think they understood what I meant by a "war we can't win". What I meant was the entire middle east as a whole, its not going anywhere, us being there isn't doing any good, if anything we're just getting in the way of a gang war...

And Habanero, do you really understand how the world views us? I guess you don't because no matter what we do, we're the brunt of all the world's anger. If we stopped giving out foreign aid the world would have a fit, if we pulled out of Iraq and let it slide into complete chaos the world will say its our fault, if we stay there we're looked upon as occupiers. It doesn't matter now what America does, we'll always be the 'evil' superpower to countrys like, shall I say, Finland etc. Also, read my post next time, I want to PULL OUT of Iraq and the entire middle east as a whole, and I hate Bush, for various reasons I won't get into. But I'm sorry, I'm flaming now and not debating.

I am a liberal by the way, and as Hisaki said, the reservoirs found in Alaska are miniscule compared to what we need as a whole, everyday. But with the synthetic fuels, the coal-diesel propositions and the new oil find in the gulf I think we're on our way to becoming much more self sufficient.

Ya, thats what I heard, its like 28k feet down, not counting the water, whew, thats gonna be expensive, but I'm not talking about pulling out of our contract for mid-east oil right away, once these new projects get going though it could very well be a possiblity...

[Habanero]

And Habanero, do you really understand how the world views us? I guess you don't because no matter what we do, we're the brunt of all the world's anger.

Didn't I say just that? And that is completely U.S's own fault. Terrorists wouldn't have any interest on U.S or europe, if the developed countries would have established only trade relations and didn't interfere with their religion or the way the country is lead. U.S has made too may wrong moves after the 2nd WW in the world politics (especially during the last 6 years), so it'll be very hard to get rid of the reputation of greedy warmonger.

U.S had a huge potential to actually becomes something totally different. But I'd say there's something wrong if you have to wage wars in order to keep your economics strong.

U.S doesn't seem to give a shit about climate either, because it would have too big a negative effect on your economics.

Bottom line, U.S is ripping the world apart waging wars all the time because of money. U.S keeps on polluting the atmosphere more and more because they would lose money otherwise. It's kind of hard to conceive U.S as a helpful and caring nation when it keeps on doing stuff like that. Respect flies out of the window seeing that U.S has elected someone like George Bush jr. to be their president. Twice...

[Mashu-truth seeker]

OMFG, your sooo ignorant, what would happen if we became isolationists, your country and many others would fall into a economic downslide. We have 300 MILLION PEOPLE!! Finland has what? oh, 5 million, a MASSIVE difference. I'd like to see how YOUR country would handle that many people if conditions allowed it (land size etc) Any country that gets our size or larger runs into some pretty big problems with trying to handle economics, security, health care, transportation, taxes, foreign relations, domestic policy, the list goes on...

And why blame the normal people, its our corporations that are stingy war mongers, NOT ME! So stop blaming ME for my country's problems, I didn't vote for Bush. Besides we can't do anything right in the eyes of the world, no matter which direction we go. We're the world police, when was the last time your country did ANYTHING on a global level? Finland makes about as much impact on world affairs as Moldova (look it up).

And you have no room to talk when your country and many others sit back and just whine about 'america does this wrong, america does that wrong' when we're one of your largest trade suppliers. We export over 2 trillion dollars worth of goods to you every year including aircraft and parts, computers, peripherals and software, electronic components, electric machinery, chemicals, telecommunications equipment and services, medical equipment, and some agricultural products. Where as you export only a value of 3 billion dollars worth of goods to us. I wish we would become isolationists for about 5 years just to watch ignorant people like yourself realize what would happen.

And speaking of WWII the only reason Finland attacked the germans was because of allied pressure, you would have been content letting them role over the world, hell you helped them attack the Soviet Union before Americas involvment.

Also please never, ever say we "interfere with their religion or the way the country is lead" when it comes to country's we're currently in. I understand you would like nothing more than to let the entire world walk on its own two feet without assistance but it won't happen, (besides oil) we've been trying to remove the ridiculous regimes and pursecution throughout that region (though it'll never work). I'm sure your fine with letting women and children become puppet slaves to men with FAR worse intentions then our own. But of course the nordic country's have always been 'neutral' HAHAHAHAHA!!!

/end flame rant

[dragoneyes001]

OMFG, your sooo ignorant, what would happen if we became isolationists, your country and many others would fall into a economic downslide. We have 300 MILLION PEOPLE!! Finland has what? oh, 5 million, a MASSIVE difference. I'd like to see how YOUR country would handle that many people if conditions allowed it (land size etc) Any country that gets our size or larger runs into some pretty big problems with trying to handle economics, security, health care, transportation, taxes, foreign relations, domestic policy, the list goes on...
And why blame the normal people, its our corporations that are stingy war mongers, NOT ME! So stop blaming ME for my country's problems, I didn't vote for Bush. Besides we can't do anything right in the eyes of the world, no matter which direction we go. We're the world police, when was the last time your country did ANYTHING on a global level? Finland makes about as much impact on world affairs as Moldova (look it up).
And you have no room to talk when your country and many others sit back and just whine about 'america does this wrong, america does that wrong' when we're one of your largest trade suppliers. We export over 2 trillion dollars worth of goods to you every year including aircraft and parts, computers, peripherals and software, electronic components, electric machinery, chemicals, telecommunications equipment and services, medical equipment, and some agricultural products. Where as you export only a value of 3 billion dollars worth of goods to us. I wish we would become isolationists for about 5 years just to watch the rest of the world go into utter chaos and come crawling back to us on their hands and knees.
And speaking of WWII the only reason Finland attacked the germans was because of allied pressure, you would have been content letting them role over the world, hell you helped them attack the Soviet Union before Americas involvment.
Also please never, ever say we "interfere with their religion or the way the country is lead" when it comes to country's we're currently in. I understand you would like nothing more than to let the entire world walk on its own two feet without assistance but it won't happen, (besides oil) we've been trying to remove the ridiculous regimes and pursecution throughout that region (though it'll never work). I'm sure your fine with letting women and children become puppet slaves to men with FAR worse intentions then our own. But of course the nordic country's have always been 'neutral' HAHAHAHAHA!!!
/end flame rant

for one thing Hisaki has the oil for dollars part correct!

if your country decided to pull out of the middle east the US economy would fold almost immediately because OPEC the next day would switch to Euros leaving the US with a 8 trillion dollar debt it can NOT support with its exports.
the world would have a run on the US dollar that would make the depression look like a vacation.

the oil in the north is mainly in the Canadian north west territories not Alaska which only has a small portion of the total and tapping it will destroy the land and millions of animals will suffer or die<<< no exaggeration since millions have already died.

you obviously have little or no clue as to the US foreign policies in the middle east the US has: deposed the government of Iran and imposed the Shaw of Iran on them(who then proceeded to steal as much as he could from the country), They facilitated the rise to power of Saddam Hussein and armed him for decades during the war with Iran (the 2million deaths that was earlier mentioned are mostly Iranians payed for by US weapons) the mustard gas used on curds and also used during the war with Iran by Iraq (completely against The Chemical Weapons Convention) were ignored completely by the Regan administration. Syria has had several coups funded and facilitated by the CIA, Kuwait was removed from Iraq by the British the US ignored Saddam when he said he was going to retake Kuwait effectively telling him to go ahead since they had no objections. they armed and trained the Mujahidin in Afghanistan (Bin laden's group in particular) and then left them hanging in the wind. they even told Bin Laden they were going to attack Afghanistan and depose the Taliban one year prior to 9/11 and were already moving forces to the area when 9/11 occurred the fact the Taliban decimated the opium industry in Afghanistan the previous year to 3% of its original levels and effectively cut the CIA's favorite source for covert cash off may well be why Bin Laden was so quickly found guilty of 9/11.

the list of times the US has behind the scenes or overtly interfered with middle east politics is so long it'd take dozens of pages to list them all.

the US dollar does not run the world. the euro is actually stronger with a similar population base if the British dropped the pound and joined the euro it would have over 450 million people behind it and if the OPEC nations did switch that number would probably surpass the billion mark quite easily.
the only thing protecting the US economy is Hegemony and that's why your troops are getting killed in Iraq not because Saddam is a prick who deserved ousting.

[Habanero]

Err... You got issues... Maybe I was being a *bit* hostile there, but you took it to whole another level.

When did I say that U.S should stop trading? Would you point that out please? Plus, as hisaki pointed it out, you wouldn't last very long without trade relations either. Are you aware that U.S consumes vastly more resources than any other nation?

You didn't vote for Bush. Gratz, you belong to the clever minority. I'd say ratifying the Kyoto contract would make U.S look good to some extent, wouldn't it? Noone has made U.S to be the "world police" but themselves.

Now I think you should be clever enough to realize that Finland, as it is, can't possibly make any huge impact to the world because of lack of resources. So according to you I don't have the rights to criticize the way U.S has been fucking up the world? As you said, Finland has only a bit over 5 million people, do you think we could make any kind of impact on the way U.S is acting, when even UN fails in doing that?

And speaking of WWII the only reason Finland attacked the germans was because of allied pressure, you would have been content letting them role over the world, hell you helped them attack the Soviet Union before Americas involvment.

I didn't talk about WW2, only the times after it. And please... don't talk about things you don't have knowledge about. For example Finnish history...

I understand you would like nothing more than to let the entire world walk on its own two feet without assistance

I suspect you understand by now that I never implied anything like that.

Also please never, ever say we "interfere with their religion or the way the country is lead" when it comes to country's we're currently in. (besides oil) we've been trying to remove the ridiculous regimes and pursecution throughout that region (though it'll never work). I'm sure your fine with letting women and children become puppet slaves to men with FAR worse intentions then our own. But of course the nordic country's have always been 'neutral' HAHAHAHAHA!!!

It will never work the way U.S is doing it. Tossing Billions of dollars/euros in form of bombs to countries, destroing vast amounts of infrastructure and killing thousands of innocent poeple is the way to go then huh? There may be some unselfish motive behind invading other countries, but they are outshined by commercial reasons by far. Getting better conditions for women and children, by killing thousand, is in my opinion very quesionable.

Forcing them into democracy sounds like a good idea, untill you realize that there are a lot people who don't want it. Same thing with religion.

I am not ignorant, but I'm being very critical on U.S's doings at the moment, since I don't really see any reasons to not be. On the other hand, I think you are being very naive when it comes to U.S's doings all around the world. Anyway, apart from the emotional charge you included in your post, I'm actually enjoying to hear opinions from a person who seems to think completely other way than I do. Tone down the emotional part a bit, read my post a bit more thoroughly, put some more reason to it. Though this is going way off-topic already, I think this will turn out to be a nice debate. If admins let it to go on that is...

[Mashu-truth seeker]

What do you expect when the U.S. is being screamed at by all sides to do 3000 different contradicting things all at the same time. And no, after WWII the united States was looked upon to be a strong ally in times of need by many countrys, which, with the amount of resources we had, was fine. But now its spun out of control, Oh and I understand about the laundry list of infiltrations/**** ups we've been the cause of in the middle east, but I realize now that no matter what, those people are going to try and kill each other and those around them, just like afghanistan, we gave them tons of weapons to fight the russians because we saw them as a bigger threat. Then we finally really look at what kind of people that are running that country and well, we shot ourselves in the foot.

So many backstabbings/cowardly acts of violence have happened over there that it becomes ridiculous to even assume that ANYTHING you try to do over there isn't going to backfire in some way. And I've agreed from the beginning that we should've never gotten involved with the chaotic politics of the middle east, but, the consuption rate of our country mixed with all the others means they have a precious commodity, one that hopefully in the future will not be needed. Also, all of the attempted operations we've done in the middle-east haven't been in some attempt to cause more and more chaos there which is what I feel from other countrys, as if we just love death and destruction.

When you said that we should've just established trade relations with them, well you can't really establish trade to a region that is in a constant state of war. It's like being poisened (oil) and some of the antidote is in the middle of a pit of cobras. Personally I think that we shot ourselves when we allowed the oil industry to suppress the alternate energy sector.

And I'm sorry, I was far to hostile... but it gets aggrivating to be accused of things that aren't within my realm of control to begin with, it just comes down to not having a choice in this country, the only politicians here are lawyers, greedy, self-absorbed lawyers. Every country has its problems but when you become such a super power based on SO much money all the problems become a dilluted grey mass of shit thats almost impossible to pick through. And no, you never said you wanted trade to stop, I just think so many countrys depend on us yet scream about what a bad job we're doing that it seems sort of backhanded ("Thanks for the goods! Murderer!"), thats an extreme exaggeration but its sometimes how it feels..

Plus our country is SOO relient on a communist nation that I would say has MANY more problems than we do, China. Yet as far as foreign relations and action they're almost isolationists, besides exports and their imports of steel/industrial goods. Yet they get almost no shit, they're gonna take over the world through economics but everyone just accepts that... strange.

/end rant

[Habanero]

Well, those are pretty much my thoughts too. This kinda ended this off-topic road :Haha

Oh, and I wasn't referring to you, as an individual, in the posts I made, I meant you as an american.

Dragoneyes and Hisaki made good points about the subject. It'll be very hard for U.S to completely pull out from the middle east. Impossible even perhaps. Nothing further to add really... :rolleye09

[Mashu-truth seeker]

OK, well, then...umm uhhhh -_-' MORE OPINIONS!! I demand it!

Oh, and Dragoneyes, this isn't a bash, I just think its funny when you said that theres no point to tapping into and killing millions of animals in the north for oil, then I read your sig:

"Nothing says you've been here like: ten thousand heads on pikes!!!!
Proud Member of: People Eating Tasty Animals."

Lol, I just thought that was funny :p

[dragoneyes001]

OK, well, then...umm uhhhh -_-' MORE OPINIONS!! I demand it!
Oh, and Dragoneyes, this isn't a bash, I just think its funny when you said that theres no point to tapping into and killing millions of animals in the north for oil, then I read your sig:
"Nothing says you've been here like: ten thousand heads on pikes!!!!
Proud Member of: People Eating Tasty Animals."
Lol, I just thought that was funny :p

well if you consider the animals that would be dieing are a huge part of north Americas ecosystem you might clue in to why its a bad thing to kill millions of them off by crappy oil drilling practices.

migrating species account for a large portion of what keeps our nature working kill them off in the north and the south will suffer for it. the US in particular can't afford the loss considering how developed the country already is.

birds eat insects kill the birds the insects flourish without predators to stop their overpopulation trees plants and animals will be swarmed there are a lot of insects you really don't want running rampant better think about that before your worry about how much oil you can drill out of Alaska.

and I'm really getting sick of hearing Americans constantly saying they support the world since its false! they do give to others but if it wasn't for the US's over-consumption of just about everything and their oil/dollar many of those countries wouldn't need the help. most countries have sufficient GNP to sustain their populations the fact they need to collect US dollars for oil imports is by and large the greatest limiting factor since they need to create trade that will import US dollars which may not be profitable for the country's industry or current GNP so in effect they are capable of producing profitable products but since they need dollars they have to change what they produce for those dollars and lose the profit from what they can produce easily needless to say the G-8 (and yes I'm aware my country is part of it) has been keeping the worlds poor POOR to bolster their own wealth.

you can say you don't believe me if you want but go ahead prove me wrong show where the US has consistently given billions of dollars to the same country year after year after year, because helping someone with one big loan at a heavy interest rate does not constitute supporting a country.
its called loan sharking.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

I wasn't saying we should drill, I stated earlier that there's no point in drilling for oil in Alaska or Canada, it destroys ecosystems that are already on shaky ground... I was just making a joke about your sig because it contradicted what you said, just funny.

And I agree, We are both the cause and solution for many countrys finacial situation, which, with our debt, and most of those countrys inability to repay, everyone loses soo. But what are you gonna do, we're so developed now how are you gonna stop this inevitable downslide, kill us off? :p

When you find a solution that works tell us, because the options that economists have put forth don't work and thousands of ideas have been exausted.

[dragoneyes001]

the solution is simple produce more than you consume.

how about the US conform to the same rules it expects others to follow.

it might also solve the US's obesity problem since so many would be forced to get off their fat asses and do something productive.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Wow, did you know we only have a 5% unemployment rate? For a country our size thats amazing. Plus, along with Japan, Americans have FAR less vacation time than anyone else in the world... And we're taking less and less of it. Learn about production in america and our work ethics before you post uninformed opinions.

Many are obese because people eat fast food all the time and are in high stress jobs... A fast paced job means no time to sit down and eat a normal meal, or time to exercise because you work 65 hours a week.

Also the United States is the world’s largest producer of manufactured goods and leads the world in innovation. Our technology is changing the world itself. Your on an American invented piece of equipment right now, your whole life has thousands of american inventions all around you. Where do you live and what are you reading by the way?!?!

[dragoneyes001]

oh really thats why your economy is 8 trillion dollars behind your GNP.

and unemployment numbers are quite eronious since they count the number of people collecting unemployment. the homeless who are no longer able to collect are not counted nore are many others who do not collect unemployment.

by the way the inventor was Italian he was working in the US:

Federico Faggin
Born Dec 1 1941

Memory System for a Multi-Chip Digital Computer
CPU
Patent Number(s) 3,821,715
Inventor Bio

Dr. Federico Faggin was born in Vicenza, Italy December 1, 1941. He graduated from Instituto Industriale at Vicenza in 1960. He received a doctorate in physics from the University of Padua in 1965. In 1968, he came to the US to join Fairchild in Palo Alto where he developed the original silicon gate technology. The 4004 project brought him to Intel in 1970. In 1974 he founded Zilog, Inc. which produced a new chip design for the fledgling personal computer industry. After a short stint with Exxon, he co-founded Cygnet Technologies in 1982 and Synaptics, Inc. in 1986 where he is currently president. He is a recipient of the Marconi Fellowship and IEEE W. Wallace McDowell award.

as far as working too much only a small part of your work force actualy does more than 40hr weeks the numbers you said are misquoted because its a statistic on household hours a two income household does more than 65hrs a week. go ahead look it up.

besides as long as you dont produce what you consume your not producing enough regardless of your work ethics or advancements.

needless to say your talking to someone from another country well known for its inventors or did you forget we invented the radio and the telephone and velcro and basketball and countless other items you use every day!

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Hmm, lets see, Tesla lived in America through most of his inventing years (nearly 60 years) and became a citizen in 1891 soo, there goes the radio. I guess all you see is were he was born, but that would be a backhand to immigrants everywhere. Unless you want to break it down into the many inventors, Scottish, German, Italian, American and French were all part of progressing pre-finalized radio technology.

Edison was from america and is credited for inventing the carbon telephone transmitter. Alexander Graham Bell was from Scotland but became a naturalized citizen of the U.S. in 1882, but died in Canada, so which is it, is he a Canadian or American Inventor? He worked in Boston for years and in Nova Scotia. And though he was from Scotland I don't consider that his primary country.

Basketball is a proffesional sport which I think only perpetuates problems of its own, which a Canadian did invent, whoo hoo, such a world changing invention.

Velcro was invented by a Swiss man named Georges de Mestral that lived in the Alps, so where are you from? Canada, Scottland, Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland, which is it? I'm guessing Canada which would explain your pure ignorant hatred for us... But good job anyway on getting 3 out of the 4 right /golf clap... If you are from Canada then your biggest advancements have been with the oil industry.

Oh and the computer, if you want to get technical, was originally invented by Charles Babbage (English), and Claude Elwood Shannon was the founder of practical digital circuit design, he was American. Also out of the first 5 operative digital computers 3 were American, one German and one from the UK. Of true personnal computers the Xerox Alto is considered the first and was invented by two Americans, Butler Lampson and Chuck Thacker. Most modern CPUs are primarily von Neumann in design, he was Austrian but became a naturalized citizen of the U.S. in 1937 and died here in 1957, the other modern CPU designs are from the Harvard Mark I. Almost all advancments in the field of personal computers have come from American companys, MITS, Apple, IBM, and Microsoft. Do a little more research next time.

And in this day and age, when did ANY developed country not need imports of some kind? Besides, we export more grain and food than any other nation in the world. Sure we need a lot of imports, but so does Canada, become an isolationist country and see how fast you'll survive, HA, you wouldn't, just like we wouldn't. In 2005, 59% of Canadian imports came from the United States, we share the world’s largest and most comprehensive trading relationship, which supports millions of jobs in each country. Basicly, we can't live without each other... This is all assuming that your Canadian, because you won't state outright and your stated "inventions" were completely wrong.

Last thing, of course unemployment numbers are eronious, but ALL country's are, you have to have a statistical basis so I'm using the known numbers. And when did the homeless want a job? I don't think we should even count them anyway, most of them live as they do because its their choice, and their not adding to our economy or taking away from it so remove them entirely... Unless you want them, because I think something could be worked out so we can ship them to you, ya know, give em some jobs in your oil sector, I mean your only the second largest oil officiandos in the world.

And the reason we're 8 trillion dollars behind is because of our attempt at keeping the rest of the fucking world secure and oil happy, yours included...

[Vampyrelord]

Also, if your a liberal, then you obviously know about the oil in Alaska. Which left-wingers won't let us get. Why? Who knows.

Actually, we ARE drilling in Alaska. The only area we are not allowed to drill in is the beautiful North Slope - a national park.

[Habanero]

And the reason we're 8 trillion dollars behind is because of our attempt at keeping the rest of the fucking world secure and oil happy, yours included...

Here we go again...

It's not that simple. U.S consumes more than 25% of the whole world's oil production. So I'd say you're keeping, not others, but yourself oil happy.

And I still think that without U.S's attempts to "secure" the rest of the world, world would be a better place...

[Wolfman Walt]

It's not that simple. U.S consumes more than 25% of the whole world's oil production.

The interesting thing is that the DOE report that number is from is actually from 1999. Since then, China has greatly expanded its economy and is #2 in energy usage. In the next 24 years, they're slated to overtake the United States in energy (specifically Oil) usage. While there's no doubt that the effect of what you're saying is true (we use a hell of a lot of oil), we're not the only ones, and honestly, I'd like to know how those figures have changed since the report.

And I still think that without U.S's attempts to "secure" the rest of the world, world would be a better place...
Didn't we receive blame/criticism for not sticking our noses into the affairs of certain things like the Rwandan genocide? I mean, I think Clinton has publically stated that specific incident as one of the biggest regrets he (and others) had about his administration. I definetly don't think the world is a better place for allowing that to happen, do you?

[Vampyrelord]

Thank you for that, Wolfman, but I assure you, we could have done better without:

Vietnam
Guenada (so much for democracy)
Afghanistan (opium production has soared since the Taliban fell)
Iraq (enough said)

And many more besides (we have Raegan to thank for most of them, shame I'm too young to know all of his many blunders...)

Rwanda was one of those unique cases. You know why?

IT HAD THE UN'S BLESSING.

[Wolfman Walt]

Thank you for that, Wolfman, but I assure you, we could have done better without:

Vietnam
Guenada (so much for democracy)
Afghanistan (opium production has soared since the Taliban fell)
Iraq (enough said)

And many more besides (we have Raegan to thank for most of them, shame I'm too young to know all of his many blunders...)

Rwanda was one of those unique cases. You know why?

IT HAD THE UN'S BLESSING.

No, we could have done better with Vietnam as a democratic country rather then a communist country had that war been allowed to fight the way it was supposed to be fought instead of being limited by politics.

I'm proposing you mean "Grenada," though I'm curious as to why there's a "So much for democracy" in your statement. I won't lie and pretend that I'm as familar with the history of Grenada as others, so perhaps you could explain it to me.

So you're indicating that Afghanistan was better off under a tyranical rule of an oppressive government that would stone women as well as harbor and support major terrorists? You also forgot to mention that even though opium poppy was banned by the taliban, it still account for 75% of the world's supply. True, it's increased by 12%, but you act as if there was no opium fields in the country before the US war in Afghanistan.

No no, I don't think enough has been said about Iraq. I'm curious how you feel the country was better under a brutal dictator who would only have been succeeded by his even more brutal sons. While the country is definetly not stabilized, I don't see how it's any worse off.

I suppose you're also gonna pass off the Korean conflict as one of those "rare and special cases" as well, right?

Edit: Also - I think you're really up playing the UN's "blessing". They didn't respond to it, no, but they didn't give it some sort of official authorization. More then likely, there were politics holding hands of UN Peacekeepers there as usual when it comes to military operations.

[dragoneyes001]

Hmm, lets see, Tesla lived in America through most of his inventing years (nearly 60 years) and became a citizen in 1891 soo, there goes the radio. I guess all you see is were he was born, but that would be a backhand to immigrants everywhere. Unless you want to break it down into the many inventors, Scottish, German, Italian, American and French were all part of progressing pre-finalized radio technology.

Marconi was ahead of Tesla for one thing and second i was speaking of Canadian, Reginald A. Fessenden is best known for his invention of the modulation of radio waves and the fathometer.

but then the history of any invention will be global 90% of all inventions claimed as US inventions are based on global participation like kerosene which though developed in the us was invented by a Canadian Dr. Abraham Gesner
working in the US. same could be said of the British James C. Floyd
who made the first commercial jetliner in Canada yet there are ones like the pacemaker and the zutsuit which were developed in Canada yet even so if you decide to take each individual part that made those to their original inventors you'll be skiping across the globe.

And the reason we're 8 trillion dollars behind is because of our attempt at keeping the rest of the fucking world secure and oil happy, yours included...
Oil happy? that's funny since we export oil to you not import oil from you.
same for electricity lumber coal and since 86% of exports from Canada end up in the US i think we export more to you than we import from.

yup forgot where the Velcro was from my oops and I'm not afraid to admit error when it is a mistake yet like i posted the CPU was not originally American regardless of later developments the first voice radio was Canadian regardless of your disdain for sports it was a Canadian who invented basketball and your Bell history is lacking.

but getting back to the topic of the thread if the US ever managed to remove its dependency on oil (not bloody likely with oil companies running your country) you would still have your economy held hostage to world oil sales since the oil/dollar is your economies safety net keeping your shortfall of trade to consumption rate from becoming due. with the black sea and Ukraine areas moving up quickly in grain production and exports (if they can get the quality levels up) they will rival western suppliers for the world market they already match Australia's and Canada's exports and currently are cheaper and they have barely tapped the total available potential of the regions this will make the Ukraine region self sufficient and since they have a large oil reserve they will not be constrained to the US dollar for oil especially since it's profitable for them to switch to the euro for oil the same was true of Iraq which made 25% profit on all its currency when it changed to the Euro for oil after the US took Iraq they switched back to the dollar costing Iraq 25% of its entire money <<<< not exactly doing Iraqis a favor there. but who cares if its good for the US eh?

edit:

So you're indicating that Afghanistan was better off under a tyranical rule of an oppressive government that would stone women as well as harbor and support major terrorists? You also forgot to mention that even though opium poppy was banned by the taliban, it still account for 75% of the world's supply. True, it's increased by 12%, but you act as if there was no opium fields in the country before the US war in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan was already slated to be invaded by the US 1 year prior to 9/11 the reasons: to lose the taliban (now why was the Taliban suddenly bad enough for this action?)
the year before they erradicated the opium fields of Afghanistan to 3% of its original output this changed the world supply of opium by almost 2/3'rds they still had tons of processed opium in storage yet with the Taliban running things the fields were being torched so that supply was going to wither away and billions of dollars would stop flowing to the groups who traded in the opium one of which was the US's CIA who uses the profits from the opium to fund its opperations outside of the US.


as for the UN and Rwanda: I was a UN peace keeper in Rwanda it was not condoned by the UN it was a political game of look the other way by the security council led by the US's thinly vailed attempt to avoid the word Genocide.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

hmm, lets see, Oil companys run your country too last I heard, oh, yep, yep they do... And by Oil happy I meant us being a sort of, middle-man if you will, Opec is actually the middle man, but we're the ones that are called upon to solve oil crisis's across the globe. And besides, why IS everyone bitching at us about the oil industry, Opec are the ones that are controlling the world, we're not part of Opec. Look at the fuel crisis in the 70's, Opec cut oil to raise the cost of oil across the globe. If anyone should be bitched at it's them...

Iraq has been beaten to death already but we invaded for three things, stability in the middle east (which means stability for oil), taking a terrible regime out of power, and the ultimate BS reason, WMDs, which has ALWAYS been about the most retarded lie I've ever heard from an administration... Now I understand your country was against going into Iraq in the first place, but then Canada had the balls to give us advice on who to implant in their government, I mean, screw you (not you specificly, Canada), if you didn't want us in their in the first place, stay out of the situation entirly. Look how many countrys backed us when we went in, its not like this was a U.S. only invasion so stop blaming just us for whats happened. But from what it sounds like, your all about letting tyrannical gov's stay in power, better that than them lose money right?

[crash5s]

Pulling out of the Middle East is a broad statement.

For one, it's only because of America that the current Saudi goverment is still in power. If we bail on them that country could errupt into civil war. It's also only through our protection that the UAE and Kuwait are so well off. Those are two of our best allies and great countries to live in. My time in the UAE was great.

If we completely pull out we hang all of those people out to dry, that's pretty fd up if you ask me.

Then you have Israel. Now despite all their hostile actions (and I don't agree with any of them) that's another screwed up situation. Created by Britain, after WW2, and they have been attacked constantly. If we back out of that mess Israel will end up slaughtering all the countries around it. They have more then enough power and the truth is they only hold back so America doesn't look like even more of a jackass then we do now.

Finally Iraq. This is another cluster ****. Saddam was our friend, hell we sold him the WMD's (chemical weapons) because he was at war with Iran. Then he goes bonkers and attacks Kuwait and the Saudi goverment asks us to (pretty much) you created him you fix him. Fast forward 12 years of sanctions (and bombings) and we have the problems we do now. Honestly despite what you think of the war "you break it, you buy it", that's our mess.

I fail to see how pulling out of the Middle East does anything but create problems.

[saycheese]

HELL NO! you know what happens when you dam up a river and then razing it? its hard to predict what will happen when all foreign forces pull out of the region, but it certainly cant be good as it will eventually lead to the bombings/attacks of america, and my country, for helping america in their bloody rampage. its a situation where you cannot really leave, and you must go on with it. but for america, their actions are breeding more terrorists than killing them imo. they really ought to stop playing political games, set their economy to war status and let loose their dogs of war. that way, i am betting all the fighting in iraq and afganistan could finish in about half a year to a year, though it will also be bloody. the american mistake of the iraqi invasion costed them quite dearly, and they're too arragant to admit that and change their policies.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

hmm, interesting, I'm not really sure that if we were to pull out that the Saudi's wouldn't just pull out from us and start selling to China because they're beginning to need it as much as we do... I'm just tired of watching a game of cat and mouse that won't end no matter how long or how much money we pour into the region. They need to solve their own problems that mainly stem from their hatred for anyone of another religion, even people of different sects of their own. It would be like the Babtists attacking the Lutherans... its just insane...

[crash5s]

hmm, interesting, I'm not really sure that if we were to pull out that the Saudi's wouldn't just pull out from us and start selling to China because they're beginning to need it as much as we do... I'm just tired of watching a game of cat and mouse that won't end no matter how long or how much money we pour into the region. They need to solve their own problems that mainly stem from their hatred for anyone of another religion, even people of different sects of their own. It would be like the Babtists attacking the Lutherans... its just insane...

It's not so much that they wouldn't sell us oil, it's that the country would implode. It's run by a small group of princes, the population is very radical and poor, and they stay in power with totalitarian laws and appeasing the radicals. Yet a lot of the security the nation has against outside forces (all of which would love to see it break up and egg on the radicals) is by proxy of America. Everybody knows that if you mess with Saudi America will jump down your neck.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Yah, thats true... We are keeping them, in a sense, protected... I'm sure China could fill those boots pretty easily tho, lol :p I think tho, in time, we'll need to start slowly removing ourselves from foreign oil or it could, once again, become a major crisis in the future if something big happens over there.

[crash5s]

Yah, thats true... We are keeping them, in a sense, protected... I'm sure China could fill those boots pretty easily tho, lol :p I think tho, in time, we'll need to start slowly removing ourselves from foreign oil or it could, once again, become a major crisis in the future if something big happens over there.

China won't bother.

Russia has massive oil/gas resources. Yet never developed them largely because in the cold war nobody wanted to buy fuel from them and thus help Russia build it's military power. Now that's not the case. Furthermore Russia has been having problems with radical Islam for a lot longer then the US/Western Europe.

China has always been a Russian ally, Russia is more then able to provide China (and the US for that matter) with fuel. And currently they are busting their asses to tap into what they have.

The solution to the problem is working with the Russians, and we are.

Let's also keep in mind that when we talk oil, we are really talking petrolium. Which is used in everything from vasaline, to plastic, to just about anything made today. Even if we cut our reliance on it as a fuel, that does not change the fact that we can't manufacture most of he products we use without it.

That is probably the greatest reason why we haven't gone with nuclear/wind/water power by now. Because even though it offers unlimited energy for almost nothing, it still does not solve the problem that petrochemicals are the basis for modern manufacturing.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

yes, everything you said was spot on, but they could solve that by growing large quantities of low grade marijuana, from the oils and extracts to the hemp itself, it could revolutionize the entire system, and scientists have already made plants with nearly 0 THC content, so potheads can't get a use out of it... Almost everything we use oil/trees for could be produced in mass quantities of hemp, at much MUCH lower cost and higher effectivness, but this is for another debate, so, yes, I agree completely on what you just said, we need the black stuff even if we switched to alternate energy sources.

[dragoneyes001]

hmm, lets see, Oil companys run your country too last I heard, oh, yep, yep they do... And by Oil happy I meant us being a sort of, middle-man if you will, Opec is actually the middle man, but we're the ones that are called upon to solve oil crisis's across the globe. And besides, why IS everyone bitching at us about the oil industry, Opec are the ones that are controlling the world, we're not part of Opec. Look at the fuel crisis in the 70's, Opec cut oil to raise the cost of oil across the globe. If anyone should be bitched at it's them...
Iraq has been beaten to death already but we invaded for three things, stability in the middle east (which means stability for oil), taking a terrible regime out of power, and the ultimate BS reason, WMDs, which has ALWAYS been about the most retarded lie I've ever heard from an administration... Now I understand your country was against going into Iraq in the first place, but then Canada had the balls to give us advice on who to implant in their government, I mean, screw you (not you specificly, Canada), if you didn't want us in their in the first place, stay out of the situation entirly. Look how many countrys backed us when we went in, its not like this was a U.S. only invasion so stop blaming just us for whats happened. But from what it sounds like, your all about letting tyrannical gov's stay in power, better that than them lose money right?

for one thing Canada is by no means run by the oil companies especialy since only one province is the major oil producer of the country the only other area with similar oil capabilities is NWT which has easier to tap oil reserves but is far more remote.

as for OPEC in 1973 the US and Saudi Arabia made a deal to trade oil exclusively in US dollars in exchange for the Saudies investing in US stock which is why you recently found out via the press that the Middle east pretty much owned your ports(you might be too young to remember soon after that deal all the Saudies running around buying up half of your country).

this is also why Iraq was attacked regardless of your fantasies about removing a tyrant (too bad it was your country who put him in power eh? and if you bothered to look you might be sickened to know just how many psycopathic leaders the US has been instrumental in empowering over the last 50 years) they changed 13% of the worlds oil supply to euros from the dollar and you still can't see why the US had to oust Saddam?.

by the way telling your country to not support one leader they were planing on because he was going to be a real problem in the region is advice not telling them who to implant. needless to say the US later droped him because of his past.

and like i said if your country didn't create these idiot tyrants for your own ends you wouldn't need to depose them when they finaly bite you in the ass.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Fantasies, are you mental? It is a reason, not the main reason but a piece of the puzzle non the less, and what has Canada done for anyone except themselves? Your one of the most self-absorbed, arrogant nations in the world, oh, and by the way, your Prime Minister is as much of a wack-job as our president...

You have a half trillion dollar debt. Long waiting lists in your healthcare system. Your military isn't fully funded or equipped with vehicles and weaponry of the same quality as us. Post secondary education isn't available to everyone regardless of financial means. The horrid mess you've created within the aboriginal communities isn't cleared up. Your farmers are still going bankrupt. Your housing costs in your country are sky-high etc etc.

None of these things have been dealt with in your country so maybe you should concentrate on that, which is what your good at anyway. And please don't tell me Canada isn't run by Oil company's, I'm a welder here and I see it everyday. We get TONS of bits, well-heads, pipe, joints, subs, collars all from Canada.

The oil sands in Alberta comprise the largest known hydrocarbon reserves, estimated at over 300 billion barrels of currently recoverable oil. The oil sands contain bitumen, a viscous mixture of hydrocarbons that requires melioration into crude oil before it can be refined into various fuels. Recovery of the oil is energy intensive, environmentally disruptive, and expensive (although the soaring cost of oil is making extraction more profitable).

The presence of oil and minerals in Lubicon (aboriginies) territory attracted the oil company, Petro-Canada, and other Big Oil interests such as Shell and Imperial Oil. Japanese logging giant Daishowa came to clear-cut the trees on Lubicon territory. The Canadian state itself exists on the basis of the expropriation of native land and resources, the subordination of native politics. In 2002, over 1,700 well sites and several kilometers of pipelines had already been erected in Lubicon territory. The federal government and Alberta government are complicit in this theft of Lubicon land and resources. Your native people are being put ‘out of the way’ for oil and gas exploration work AND your the biggest supplier of oil to America IN THE WORLD! 18% to be precise... So don't act like your country isn't doing its own ridiculous, enviroment ruining, people displacing acts of destruction all in the name of big oil, because you do...

[crash5s]

in 1973 the US and Saudi Arabia made a deal to trade oil exclusively in US dollars in exchange for the Saudies investing in US stock which is why you recently found out via the press that the Middle east pretty much owned your ports(you might be too young to remember soon after that deal all the Saudies running around buying up half of your country).

What do you mean by “recently found out”? America has been in bed with the Saudi royals for decades, this is widely known. In addition the UAE and Kuwait are some of our closest allies, have been for many years. Their control of our ports isn’t even a problem. Consider how many American ships operate out of their ports. As far as vast sums of cargo transported by sea (which lets face it all imports are) those countries are our best friends. They are also close military allies.

You make it sound like this is a problem. When in fact it's one of the reasons we are so close with them, it's an asset.

this is also why Iraq was attacked regardless of your fantasies about removing a tyrant

Spoken like a fool. I was in the military under Clinton, and under Bush Jr. Truth is we never stopped the first Gulf War. We had been debating taking Saddam out the entire time. Nobody has any illusions about it (other then conspiracy theorists). Our puppet dictator went off the deep end and we decided it was time to get rid of him.

? and if you bothered to look you might be sickened to know just how many psycopathic leaders the US has been instrumental in empowering over the last 50 years)

Way to point out the obvious. Now PRIOR to America being the super power how many psychotic leaders did Europe install? Far more then we have. The truth is any nation in power does the exact same crap. If you want to place blame it goes back to the UK, France, and Spain, who royally fucked up everything before America came in power. Yeah we haven't been much better, but a large part of our screw ups have been picking up the mess European super powers created and now blame us for.

they changed 13% of the worlds oil supply to euros from the dollar and you still can't see why the US had to oust Saddam?.

Here's a clue, that's NOT the reason. For one we could care less about that, for another the EU is a doomed project and has no political power. It's a farce created for the sole reason of trying to compete with America... and even then some of it's most critical nations aren't fully playing ball (go UK and GER).

We've wanted to take out Iraq since the first Gulf War, it's just (up till now) we were lead by people with rational thought. our current president is a moron who acts before he thinks, and HIS logic on it was that Saddam tried to kill his dad. It was a personal issue, nothing more.

and like i said if your country didn't create these idiot tyrants for your own ends you wouldn't need to depose them when they finaly bite you in the ass.

All global powers do this. And honestly even if we have to dipose of them, if that saves us money, lives, and effort in the long run, so be it. That's the way of the strong, use people to your advantage, throw them away when they get cocky. Not to long ago America was the "puppet" we learned from the best.

BTW Masha has it right

[peacmaker]

We have this knowgele, why not make our own fuel, beside the middle east is in a mess and everytime something happenings it blame on the U.S. and oil.

[crash5s]

We have this knowgele, why not make our own fuel, beside the middle east is in a mess and everytime something happenings it blame on the U.S. and oil.

Because fuel isn't the critical issue in all of this... petrochemicals of a usable quality for industry is.

We can run this country off nuclear and wind power, and run cars by water and electricity. None of that changes that our industry to make just about anything, depends on petrochemicals.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Yah, The secondary industries is the issue, plastics etc. Thousands of manufacturing industrys depend on it and without petrolium they become screwed, but as I stated, growing large quantities of hemp and using the extracts could be the solution for that problem. This is all assuming that we can even become self sufficient, which is a dream in many respects, but one I want to hold onto...

[crash5s]

Yah, The secondary industries is the issue, plastics etc. Thousands of manufacturing industrys depend on it and without petrolium they become screwed, but as I stated, growing large quantities of hemp and using the extracts could be the solution for that problem. This is all assuming that we can even become self sufficient, which is a dream in many respects, but one I want to hold onto...

Self sufficient, not for several decades. However using a mix of canadian, american, and russian petrochemicals (thus no more middle east) is possible within 20 years, should all projects go as planned.

[dragoneyes001]

Fantasies, are you mental? It is a reason, not the main reason but a piece of the puzzle non the less, and what has Canada done for anyone except themselves? Your one of the most self-absorbed, arrogant nations in the world, oh, and by the way, your Prime Minister is as much of a wack-job as our president...
You have a half trillion dollar debt. Long waiting lists in your healthcare system. Your military isn't fully funded or equipped with vehicles and weaponry of the same quality as us. Post secondary education isn't available to everyone regardless of financial means. The horrid mess you've created within the aboriginal communities isn't cleared up. Your farmers are still going bankrupt. Your housing costs in your country are sky-high etc etc.
None of these things have been dealt with in your country so maybe you should concentrate on that, which is what your good at anyway. And please don't tell me Canada isn't run by Oil company's, I'm a welder here and I see it everyday. We get TONS of bits, well-heads, pipe, joints, subs, collars all from Canada.
The oil sands in Alberta comprise the largest known hydrocarbon reserves, estimated at over 300 billion barrels of currently recoverable oil. The oil sands contain bitumen, a viscous mixture of hydrocarbons that requires melioration into crude oil before it can be refined into various fuels. Recovery of the oil is energy intensive, environmentally disruptive, and expensive (although the soaring cost of oil is making extraction more profitable).
The presence of oil and minerals in Lubicon (aboriginies) territory attracted the oil company, Petro-Canada, and other Big Oil interests such as Shell and Imperial Oil. Japanese logging giant Daishowa came to clear-cut the trees on Lubicon territory. The Canadian state itself exists on the basis of the expropriation of native land and resources, the subordination of native politics. In 2002, over 1,700 well sites and several kilometers of pipelines had already been erected in Lubicon territory. The federal government and Alberta government are complicit in this theft of Lubicon land and resources. Your native people are being put ‘out of the way’ for oil and gas exploration work AND your the biggest supplier of oil to America IN THE WORLD! 18% to be precise... So don't act like your country isn't doing its own ridiculous, enviroment ruining, people displacing acts of destruction all in the name of big oil, because you do...

your trying to compare apples to oranges for a country that killed its aboriginals like they were vermin your one to talk.

the treaties with our natives are questionable to begin with like the fishing rights that let natives fish commercially out of season for one then they whine that stocks are depleting.

by the way the lubicon are from alberta and most of the disputes center around who profits from the resources you might want to look up a bit more on the subject and not just take the media spin since the natives have great public relations its easy to whine about this and that but if your goal is only to profit without the expense of extraction (yes they make millions of dollars per year as compensations) the only time they make a fuss is when they are unhappy with just how many million dollars are being payed to them otherwise they would be the first to dig every last drop of oil out of the sands. there is plenty of evidence that the natives are actualy worse when it comes to exploiting the resources than the rest of us they want imediate profit and have shown they will over use resources to that end its true in logging fisheries mining and in some oil fields what makes you think this area would be any different?

yup getting a broken hip here may take a few weeks to be scheduled for the final surgery but at least the senior wont be eating cat food for the rest of their natural lives because of the bill from the hospital.

the dept is approx. 400 billion of which we actually are paying down on the debt and not just the interest. and the big difference between our debt and yours our international credit rating is based on the debt and production while yours is being counted by the hegemony of oil for dollars and that is exactly why your idiot president is so hell bent on controlling the middle east because the US can't afford to have its dollar devalued based on production vs debt. in effect if the US dollar does go tits up our currency will hurt but will not get dragged down to worthlessness.

by the way I agree with you about Harper being a major wack job the only saving grace is he's a minority government which means he's limited to just how much he can screw up.

What do you mean by “recently found out”?

guess you live under a rock if you didn't notice the big huff over the major ports of the US being controled by middle eastern countries.

[crash5s]

guess you live under a rock if you didn't notice the big huff over the major ports of the US being controled by middle eastern countries.


What "big huff" last I checked (as a US citizen and a government worker) it was a minor issue, and nothing changed. Yet the international community makes it out to be a big something, when honestly most American/UAE people don't give a crap, and those are the two parties that count.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

You REALLY don't understand what I'm trying to get at apparently, I'm trying to let you realize your country is just as fucked up as ours, but in different, more self-centered ways. And the genocides of our Indians were many many years ago, yours are happening today, which from the ultra-high horse your on seems sort of hypocritical, just a little, plus your government is just trying to assimilate them into your culture instead having to dole out land for them, such a better solution what with their high drinking rates and unemployment, just take away their ENTIRE culture!!

And good stuff with your "a few weeks to schedule". Except when you DO get the surgery its of a much poorer quality and then your bound for more and more after that. Our medical system is fucked up, I'll be the first to admit that but yours is just as bad in different areas, like time and quality, which for patients that need organs can spell certain doom. But thats ok because you don't have to pay a lot of money for it right? Which means the docters are less apt to do a good job etc etc...

Oh and when you said if the US dollar goes "tits" up your currency won't get hit that bad. Well sorry to tell you this but your country would go down the shitter right along with us simply becuse of the co-reliance we have with each other... You think you have problems with export tariffs with the US now HA, wait till that happens. I just wish your country would stop its anti-american propoganda because its been turning your youth into little disillusioned retards that in the end is only going to hurt your relationship with us, which, if something major happened, we're the only line of defense you have, unless your Duddly Do-Rights can handle it, that would be a sight to see. I mean your country even screens American music coming into your country, if thats not over zealous I don't know what is.

And our ports being 'taken over' is BS, we're in an ALLIANCE with them, jesus christ you make it sound like its bad that we have relations with them, even though you've been the one harping on our 'terrible' influence in the middle-east. Which DO you support, the US or them? Neither I guess, just Canada right...

But obviously your just gonna stay on your pedistal of denial and will continue to think America is 'evil' where as your country is perfect which is fine, put a screen up like all of your peers, become blind hate mongers, that'll solve problems. And next time you want to say hegemony think back to how you got your country, I believe that would be.... oh you get the idea.

[crash5s]

While I agree with everything you sadi 100% I feel this needs more

And our ports being 'taken over' is BS, we're in an ALLIANCE with them, jesus christ you make it sound like its bad that we have relations with them, even though you've been the one harping on our 'terrible' influence in the middle-east. Which DO you support, the US or them? Neither I guess, just Canada right...


This sums it up right and quick. Don't know about the rest of you but I've been in Saudi, the UAE, Dubai, and Kuwait, as both military, and civilian. These guys are some of allies, even more so then Israel, we trust them completely and we need to.

Bitching that "hey your ally that you let inpsect your nuclear aircraft carries and have been best friends with for the past 30 years controls a port and thus you are at risk" is beyond stupid.

I don't know how else to say it but those are some of our best friends, when i worked at the pentagon after I was out of the service I saw some people from their daily. These are not people we need to fear.

For christs sake, what should we do, bomb our friends?

[Wolfman Walt]

the year before they erradicated the opium fields of Afghanistan to 3% of its original output.

Actually it was reduced to 2% by my figures. Unfortunetly, the year before the reissued decree to ban poppy still produced 75% (or 4000 tons) of the world's opium. The only reason why it was "erradicated" was because the Taliban began to actively try and get rid of it by burning fields and actively arresting people who grew the crop. This only contributes to the Talibans ruling style as the people became grossly impoverished, relying on humanitarian aid to actually feed the population. So while opium is a problem now, it was also a problem then, not only that, but the Talibans "removal" of that problem (Which I can almost garuntee would be temporary) resulted in the neccesity of humanitarian aid.

While I agree that the production is a problem, the question was "If Afghanistan was better off without the US's help" and I still honestly think the answer is 'no'.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Also, another thing about the ports, I think I'd much rather have strong allys running our ports than what we had before, which was the mafia. Unless Dragoneyes feels we we're better off with them, because I wouldn't want to piss off Canada...

[dragoneyes001]

LOL the rest of your post was pure BS and ignorant hate based rantings, this part is use pure stupidity.

What "big huff" last I checked (as a US citizen and a government worker) it was a minor issue, and nothing changed. Yet the international community makes it out to be a big something, when honestly most American/UAE people don't give a crap, and those are the two parties that count.

So good on you, you're gullible.

your really clueless aren't you! i'm laughing at your press for freaking out about it but guess your incapable of noticing that arent you?

the international comunity is laughing at the US press for making such a big deal of it.

You REALLY don't understand what I'm trying to get at apparently, I'm trying to let you realize your country is just as fucked up as ours, but in different, more self-centered ways. And the genocides of our Indians were many many years ago, yours are happening today, which from the ultra-high horse your on seems sort of hypocritical, just a little, plus your government is just trying to assimilate them into your culture instead having to dole out land for them, such a better solution what with their high drinking rates and unemployment, just take away their ENTIRE culture!!

"our indians are dead and burried we dont have to deal with them today so don't bring them up" nice just because you slaughtered them a while back does not make you any less dispicable for it.

as for the drinking by our natives that tends to be by the ones who want to ride life for free they wouldn't work if you put a gun to their heads they just want to sit on their asses and recieve the anual payments we make to pretty much every native group in Canada but i guess you didn't know that when is the last time you've talked to any? and the ones who do work are very hard workers real achievers they wouldn't go back to the reserves because they don't like the freeloaders there. then you have the people who feel they have to live on the reserves to uphold the native heritage these are the ones who actualy try and make something good of the places but are stuck with a bunch of drunk lazy bums who wont lift a finger to help themselves. and lastly you have the scammers those that will use every possible means to squeek every last cent out of native rights they fish commercialy out of season smuggle cigarettes and arms into the country log native land flat pump every last drop of oil off their land and mine the places dry.

the reason they don't want to integrate is simple it would mean they lose close to 500 million dollars in transfer payments and would need to pay the same taxes the rest of us do.

or didn't you know Canada is multi cultural? you know where a people is allowed to keep their heritage they would not be suddenly Canadian nor are east Indians or the slovaks or the greeks or the italians or the haitians...etc...
the heritage is not the issue millions of dollars and taxes are. Canada has been Canada for 200 years its not like we'll revert to the 1800's and the biggest problem for the natives is the reserves themselves where too many are not willing to get off their asses and make a living for themselves.

we were building free housing for one group an entire comunity as we finished a house they moved in before we could finish the next house the one they moved into had every inside door used as fire wood the carpets burned as well the tables used to gut and clean seals...etc... it got to the point we didn't want to keep building for nothing.
you'll say they live in hovels yet the house may look like crap but in the driveway are a 30,000$ pick-up a nice car two ski-doos and a fishing boat with two 90 horse motors they tend to hide them when the press is expected.

like i said they have great public relations the only group i take seriously when they gripe are the inuit who live way up north and have little opportunity yet they are also the group who have recieved the largest land claim in history (Nunavut our third territory).

And good stuff with your "a few weeks to schedule". Except when you DO get the surgery its of a much poorer quality and then your bound for more and more after that. Our medical system is fucked up, I'll be the first to admit that but yours is just as bad in different areas, like time and quality, which for patients that need organs can spell certain doom. But thats ok because you don't have to pay a lot of money for it right? Which means the docters are less apt to do a good job etc etc...

go ahead and keep believing that yet explain why so many US citizens come to see our specialists? sure it also goes the other way but your saddly mistaken if you think the care is inferior because its government funded.
where we have a problem is the administration is so top heavy it creates additional wait periods and since its all union its hard to cut out the dead wood to fix the problem.

Oh and when you said if the US dollar goes "tits" up your currency won't get hit that bad. Well sorry to tell you this but your country would go down the shitter right along with us simply becuse of the co-reliance we have with each other... You think you have problems with export tariffs with the US now HA, wait till that happens. I just wish your country would stop its anti-american propoganda because its been turning your youth into little disillusioned retards that in the end is only going to hurt your relationship with us, which, if something major happened, we're the only line of defense you have, unless your Duddly Do-Rights can handle it, that would be a sight to see. I mean your country even screens American music coming into your country, if thats not over zealous I don't know what is.

nope your painfully wrong on both counts here.

one yes trade would suffer but you think the 300 million US citezens are the only people who buy things? there are 6 billion other people in the world and to tell the truth I'd be glad if our country got off its ass and started making more inroads to overseas sales china is already climbing up as a big trade partner there are other we should pursue.

and you'd be surprised just how large a force could be fielded in the case of emergency we just don't keep a standing army of any numbers what you don't count are how many are trained millitary among our population.

bullshit like your softwood tarifs will do far more to sour relations between us than any gripes we might voice. if you think the thousands of lost jobs to closed mills won't make Canadians think little of you then your dilusional.

[Neve]

There's too much agression in this debate - I'd like both of you to tune it down or recieve an official warning.

Comments such as:

bullshit like your softwood tarifs

Bitching that

Are not in accordance with the rules, and further use of them will not go unpunished. Any queries about the rules may be directed at me via PM.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Well, I don't know what media you've been listening to, but really your country is so reliant on us and vice versa that its ridiculous. Have fun trying to sell to China, oh wait, they don't don't need anything Canadas selling except oil and metals which as you say is a small portion of your countrys industry. Try and sell em some softwood, oh wait, they don't need it, or how about your massive processed foods industry, damn, again, they don't need it... You export only 6 billion dollars worth of goods to them while they export over 16 billion to you, that means they're making money, not you. Thats why we're the country keeping you afloat and you us, and we always will, because with the decline in lumber and forestry trends half of your industrial sectors would go belly up without us.

And it is a fact that socialized medicine is poorer than non-socialized, sorry, but thats a fact of life, period. And I didn't say what we did with our Indians wasn't an atrocity, I'm just stating that with as high and mighty as you make your country sound you really have no room to talk...

Oh and the point of a standing army is FOR emergencys. Have fun trying get people armed, oh wait, you don't have guns... Your country is one of the least defended developed countrys in the modern world, and don't try and dispute that, we are your defense. Oh and its not your gripes that will sour relations with us, its your your pure, ignorant hatred for us that will be...

[dragoneyes001]

There's too much agression in this debate - I'd like both of you to tune it down or recieve an official warning.

Comments such as:





Are not in accordance with the rules, and further use of them will not go unpunished. Any queries about the rules may be directed at me via PM.


the word i used is a reflection of what the tarrif was it described the fact it was found to be illegal according to 17 NAFTA court rullings (just keep apealing) and the level of damage it did to the lumber milling industry.

if you know of a better word that would properly describe the same please post it.

our lumber industry is larger than the US's we have more trees put simply what the tarrif amounts to could be compared to the US telling the OPEC nations they will have to pay 32% tarrifs on all oil imported to the US because the OPEC nations have more oil and can produce it cheaper than US oil companies. i seriously dought that would fly very well and its pretty much the same for the lumber we can allow companies much greater stumpage because we have the resources the US does not so they imposed the tarrifs which failed every contractual rulling by NAFTA courts.

[crash5s]

your really clueless aren't you! i'm laughing at your press for freaking out about it but guess your incapable of noticing that arent you?

the international comunity is laughing at the US press for making such a big deal of it.

First the US public is laughing at the press for making such a big deal out of it. The American press tends to whip into a frenzy at the drop of a hat. That doesn't mean the American public does the same. Our TV is an odd mix of a reality show and a soap opera, nobody takes it seriously.

Really the average person here assigns the same gravity to the evening news as they do American idol. Yeah it's funny to see them throw a fit, but in the end it's all a joke.

[Jack Van Burace]

Wow, impressive! I just left the debates area for a month or two and I find this! lol! Original poster guy, do you really think US did well in invading Iraq? That you're a liberal, that you "were helping them" achieve democracy?? What fairy tale do you live in? What drugs are you on? The world didn't condemn US for nothing. "Carrying the world on our backs". I really would like to hear from you what did US ever done to the world. A liberal doesn't support war. A liberal doesn't support oppression, and therefore: CIA, US army, or any use of strength to achieve his own wellfare in the cost of others lives/wellfare/peace. Iraq wasn't that bad before US intervented. They were getting poorer because US forced their neighbours to impose sanctions on them. They had been attacked by Bush father, but never retaliated. Only thing you accuse them of, is that Saddan used chemical weapons against civilian areas in a past war against Iran. And were excluding the curds in the north. Well, good news for you: Israel does the same, and gets money from US every month! Wow! Your government hasn't only not invaded them, but given them money!

So, "Mr. Santa Claus", I just hope you never dream of expanding your "caring", "loving" and "compassion" for my country either. Your "friendship" is the kind of friendship we only hope for rapists, and torturers. People like the CIA your taxes pay for ^^

[Wolfman Walt]

A liberal doesn't support war. A liberal doesn't support oppression, and therefore: CIA, US army, or any use of strength to achieve his own wellfare in the cost of others lives/wellfare/peace.

So you know what a liberal automatically supports? That's pretty impressive indeed. Especially since I know a number of liberals who have supported the war. Infact, I know one who works for the CIA. CONUNDRUM!!!!

[Jack Van Burace]

So you know what a liberal automatically supports? That's pretty impressive indeed. Especially since I know a number of liberals who have supported the war. Infact, I know one who works for the CIA. CONUNDRUM!!!!
Yes, a liberal, by the word's meaning itself, relies on liberty. And Liberty IS the exact opposite of these things I mentioned. If a liberal works for the CIA, he's an hipocrate:toocool:

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Jack Van Burace:
OMFG, if a liberal works for the CIA their a hypocrite? Jesus man, you need to get your head on straight. How is it that if I believe in most of the values of the left wing party that I can't support the war? Also you said "I really would like to hear from you what did US ever done to the world". My country gives out more foreign aid than any other on earth, period. Hundreds of economys depend on our aid and you can sit there with a straight face and say that, however disconjointed it is...

Please reframe from doing any more random America bashing in the future, your not good at it. And if you would have read my posts in their entirety I admitted we went into Iraq first and foremost for stabilization and for Bushy's revenge, but we are attempting now to help the country, and please don't ever say we're killing thousands for nothing, because we arn't killing thousands at all, not even close. Besides, Saddam killed FAR more people under his regime than we ever dreamed of in our occupation of Iraq.

Also if you would have read what I fulley posted you would have caught the fact I was against the war in the beginning, but now that we're there whats the point in just letting it slide into civil war making everything that we've done completely go to waste. What drugs are you on? Plus we arn't the ones killing everyone there, its the insurgents and the Sunni/Shiite war thats claiming all of the casualties.

If you want to know what Saddam was doing under his reign of terror than just read Mayada: Daughter of Iraq, its about one woman's survival under Saddam's dictatorship, the things that he did to woman and prisoners there was horrendous, to the very definition of the word. Don't speak about things you know nothing about, please, and if at all possible go on another vacation from the debates section, I would appreciate it...

[Jack Van Burace]

lol! I'm not talking about the left wing political party. I'm talking about beeing politically liberal. That's independant of a party, that's up to you.

Now, about the American foreign policy, I'm sorry. I can't refrain from US bashing in the future. American I am, since America is a continent. But the US, during the cold war, supported dictators in whole South and Central Americas, as I someday already mentioned but you weren't here to read. Bill Clinton apologized formally for US supporting of Augusto Pinochet in the past, and HE surely killed a lot. He was the man who would fill in football stadiums and extermine everyone inside for political interests. CIA has done too much during the so called 'dirty wars' to be forgiven. And so, I'm sorry, but you have no idea of how 'helpfull' the american government intervenion has been throughout the world, and it is impossible not to think they might be on the exact same situation we were 2 decades ago.

US surely may have sent aid packages, invested in Tsunami victims. Be happy with you numbers! It surely helped war victims, starvation victims. But seriously, it didn't change my life at all. I don't think I owe you or your country exactly ZIP! Got it? And many more other people don't owe you anything either! Don't kid yourself.

Saddan was put there in first place by the americans, and you can also have numbers (I'm honest, I didn't even look for any numbers at all) that show he killed more and all. But US invasion surely killed a lot of inocents (Iraqis and US and british citizens) that weren't needed.

Lemme tell you just one more thing: american soldiers are jerks wherever they are. You go to a town where there is a base there, and see how people react there, whenever they grab on chicks on the streets by force, and talk loud and make a mess, just because they cannot be messed with. I know a lot of people in Germany who dislikes US because of the 'superbness' they act in the streets of germany, and care little about the ppl living there. In japanese cities as well.

I really don't hate the US. Everytime I've been there I was well treated. I have friends there. And many things made there I admire. But please don't ask me to "refrain from talking bad of america" again.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

I asked you to reframe from bashing america because your bad at it... You can certainly still spew some garbage but be warned it makes you look ridiculously ignorant. Plus I never said we haven't supported dictators, but when they get into power on their own or theirs no one to choose from in countrys such as these what do you expect. The world expects us to do something about problems, so we attempt to and get pissed on after it goes badly when it already was on a path self destruction in the first place.

Also, I never said that the countrys we give aid to owe us anything, but the second we would pull our aid they would scream for it back and blame us that their economy went belly up because they can't stand on their own two feet. Latin America is a perfect example of ultimate corruption in its truest form and nothing is going to change that fact no matter what anybody does about it. So many Latin country's economy's are based on illegal trade and operations its staggering. I can't help it if you can't clean up your own acts.

[Jack Van Burace]

The world expects us to do something about problems, so we attempt to and get pissed on after it goes badly when it already was on a path self destruction in the first place.

Never heard these "screams". WWII was just a help because Europe was facing the enemy in their own land. But I don't remember any other example than this incessantly repeating example.

And lemme get this straight, you wreck a place and then goes "oops, it was already on the way to self destruction anyway!". You still haven't given an example of aid you gave Latin america. Or an example of how I don't know what I'm talking about. Is it because I don't know the numbers??

[Mashu-truth seeker]

The most recent numbers I could find: In 2003 military aid from the US to Latin America came to $860 million dollars, just short of the $921 million spent on economic and humanitarian assistance in the same year. If recent trends hold, military aid may actually exceed economic assistance.

USAID spent approximately $100.8 million for programs in 2004 to create jobs, reduce poverty and improve the climate for trade and investment. To increase impact, USAID has targeted programs in seven departments that include Peru’s major coca-growing valleys, where USAID and other U.S. government agencies work to combat the flow of illicit narcotics to the United States and other markets and to discourage these areas from becoming breeding grounds for criminal activity. USAID also focuses on the Peru-Ecuador border area, where USAID is helping to encourage ongoing peaceful relations between the two countries.

USAID programs also aim to improve health and education services, support decentralization, improve environmental management, strengthen local governments and help reform the judicial system. Likewise infrastructure projects (e.g. roads, bridges, etc.) facilitate commerce and agriculture in remote areas, especially in former coca-growing areas.

Since 1995, MedAid has delivered over $4 million in medicines, medical supplies and medical devices to the people of Cuba, the network ensures that medical supplies go directly to the people needing care. One of our largest successes--SEBASTA 2000--brought enough medication to treat all of Cuba's cancer patients for one year. I could keep going on and on with regards to other Latin countrys.

Don't ever ask for an example of our aid giving prioritys or tell me that we don't send your countrys aid ok... we spend nearly 2 billion every year on central and south America.

[Jack Van Burace]

Ok, my turn. I don't want to get away from the topic, so I'll be very superficial:

Tobaco companies pay for making marijuana ilegal, since it only grown on the tropics, and the tropical countries would hold monopoly there. Just like the alchohol ban made Al Capone, marijuana ban makes drug lords, and it's US interest to fight narcotrafic. Marijuana is scientifically proven to be less adictive/lethal than tobbaco.

Improving trade = try to make ALCA go through, which would be a hasty profit for US but would wreck all of the other countries in a decade. Totally unwanted pact for us, that the US could pay much more to grasp: it would generate much more than the cost.

Military aid: US school maps show the Amazon jungle as an "International Area". The Amazon jungle is brazilian territory. My great grandfather was there at the first border check, when we linked it to our territory, and thus making him one of the minor national heroes of the past.
So, the so called military aid in Peru had to have a mirror (a brazilian correspondant soldier on the other side of the border for each marine present there) just to prevent a possible invasion of that territory. It has mineral and biological resources very much needed. US defends it to be "International Area" because of the world renowed importance of the Amazon jungle. But then again they don't "internationalize" Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, none of those beautifull natural world renowed importance places, so funny they should expect we to do it, LOL! And don't say no, W. Bush recently asked us for it, so no use denying his interests.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Ok, so you want us to pull our aid, alright, I'll make it an effort to get our aid pulled from your region, all 2 billion of it... since you obviously don't agree with it, it doesn't help anyone. We can't do good in this world by the thoughts of yours and many other countrys so I guess I'll just petition to stop the horrible aid programs we have set up for hundreds of nations across the glode.

I never thought I would see so many people so offended by our help. But I guess when you have the most, people will just hate you no matter what you do... I can't wait till China overtakes us in the economic arena so then maybe the whole world can ***** at their communist/isolationist butts.

[Jack Van Burace]

Man, stop wining. We won't give your country licence to kill even if you cry. It's not ok to start a war, to go into other people's territory, armed, and start killing people. Sometimes we elect a bad president here (like the current), and I say: "Man, good job! All the wreck he's making is well deserved! Don't vote for him next time..." It's perfectly ok to be in a bad administration we choose. As long as WE choose and WE get to take the hit for what we did. It's not like OTHERS choose, or even we choose and OTHERS pay for it. I am unable to understand what's so wrong about a country governing itself. Afterall, unsatisfied citizens could very well protest against leaders, and against dictators, Iraqis have shown they could form militia and fight back. They have shown they could bomb cars and organize themselves to depose Saddan if it was what they wanted before. Foolish of you to think that a country doesn't get the president it deserves...

[Mashu-truth seeker]

WTF!!!! do you even know the atrocities he commited, obviously you don't, like I said, your silence won't save you. Little militia bands don't make much impact against a hardened military force. Opression just seems to be ok to you which is just unbelievably amazing to me. Even if mass genocide happened in a country that chose its ruler youd be ok with it because they chose him and that no one should get involved. We went in because of like I said, 2 main reasons: to gain stability in the middle east and for revenge, yet the 3rd reason was to depose a tyrant that had ruled with an Iron fist for 30 years but your still ok with it. The world won't be a utopia if you don't get involved with outside issues. If everyone acted like saints ya, but they don't so action needs to be taken sometimes.

My god, does the past just not ring a bell with you? How many horrible things that have happened in the past had to be stopped by an outside force. Rome/Greece/Mongals/Nazis/Japanese for infinity have had to be stopped by outside sorces of control or domination would have been the result. Radical Islamic fundamentalism is a HUGE problem right now.

As for Saddam Documented chemical attacks by the regime, from 1983 to 1988, resulted in some 30,000 Iraqi and Iranian deaths.

Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds. The Iraqi regime used chemical agents including mustard gas and nerve agents in attacks against at least 40 Kurdish villages between 1987-1988. The largest was the attack on Halabja which resulted in approximately 5,000 deaths. 2,000 Kurdish villages were destroyed during the campaign of terror.

Iraq's 13 million Shi'a Muslims, the majority of Iraq's population of approximately 22 million, face severe restrictions on their religious practice, including a ban on communal Friday prayer, and restriction on funeral processions.

According to Human Rights Watch, "senior Arab diplomats told the London-based Arabic daily newspaper al-Hayat in October [1991] that Iraqi leaders were privately acknowledging that 250,000 people were killed during the uprisings, with most of the casualties in the south." Refugees International reports that the "Oppressive government policies have led to the internal displacement of 900,000 Iraqis, primarily Kurds who have fled to the north to escape Saddam Hussein's Arabization campaigns (which involve forcing Kurds to renounce their Kurdish identity or lose their property) and Marsh Arabs, who fled the government's campaign to dry up the southern marshes for agricultural use. More than 200,000 Iraqis continue to live as refugees in Iran."

The U.S. Committee for Refugees, in 2002, estimated that nearly 100,000 Kurds, Assyrians and Turkomans had previously been expelled, by the regime, from the "central-government-controlled Kirkuk and surrounding districts in the oil-rich region bordering the Kurdish controlled north."

"Over the past five years, 400,000 Iraqi children under the age of five died of malnutrition and disease, preventively, but died because of the nature of the regime under which they are living." (Prime Minister Tony Blair, March 27, 2003) Under the oil-for-food program, the international community sought to make available to the Iraqi people adequate supplies of food and medicine, but the regime blocked sufficient access for international workers to ensure proper distribution of these supplies. Since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces have discovered military warehouses filled with food supplies meant for the Iraqi people that had been diverted by Iraqi military forces. And you still think we should've stayed out it, remarkable...

[Jack Van Burace]

Yes. I saw a documentary of a british guy who was in Afghanistan, Iraq and in Palestine right before september the eleventh. Or right after, I don't remember clearly, but before US invasion. He managed to escape Saddan's 'media watch', some guards appointed to allow him into the city, and to prevent him of showing anything anti-saddan when staying there. Like, he couldn't show Saddan's butt in the statue he used to have. Or film military locations, which he disrespected with a hidden camera.

Anyways, he went to the bathroom and sneaked out of the guards watch, and into a café in Bagdad, interviewing a common citizen. He sez in the documentary (which unfortunately I don't remember the name) to the guy that he's safe. He can use a filter and hide his identity. He can speak with no fear of retaliation whatsoever, and that he wants to know how is the life of the Iraqis without censorship. The documentarist asks the man to speak freely, and say whatever he wants against the current regime. And know what he answered? "You're kidding me? This dictator thing is western media stuff (he knew how to speak english). We love Saddan! He builds us hospitals, he does what's best for our people. Thre has been wars against the curds, but we approve that...". It may sound like I'm making this up, but actually this is what moves me to think they weren't unhappy. They had the president the wanted. Even if he was overruling and all.

Ok, you talk then about slaughtering of entire ppls. Would you agree if Chile invaded USA for Augusto Pinochet's crimes? You wouldn't be able to leave your house during the night, and some of their bombings could hit your girlfriend's or relative's houses and kill them by accident. No indenization. But it would be ok as long as they deposed CIA for it's more than 60 years of oppression and manslaughtering, right?

And the Curds aren't really the matter. China did, and still does way more than that and I don't see anyone complaining. When USA invades China to stop forced abortion, peasant executions and political dissidents assassinations then I believe. But it was never the aid that took USA to Iraq. Mainly, because your government's own argument was firstly: "Saddan holds weapons of mass destruction!".

[dragoneyes001]

WTF!!!! do you even know the atrocities he commited, obviously you don't, like I said, your silence won't save you. Little militia bands don't make much impact against a hardened military force. Opression just seems to be ok to you which is just unbelievably amazing to me. Even if mass genocide happened in a country that chose its ruler youd be ok with it because they chose him and that no one should get involved. We went in because of like I said, 2 main reasons: to gain stability in the middle east and for revenge, yet the 3rd reason was to depose a tyrant that had ruled with an Iron fist for 30 years but your still ok with it. The world won't be a utopia if you don't get involved with outside issues. If everyone acted like saints ya, but they don't so action needs to be taken sometimes.
My god, does the past just not ring a bell with you? How many horrible things that have happened in the past had to be stopped by an outside force. Rome/Greece/Mongals/Nazis/Japanese for infinity have had to be stopped by outside sorces of control or domination would have been the result. Radical Islamic fundamentalism is a HUGE problem right now.
As for Saddam Documented chemical attacks by the regime, from 1983 to 1988, resulted in some 30,000 Iraqi and Iranian deaths.
Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds. The Iraqi regime used chemical agents including mustard gas and nerve agents in attacks against at least 40 Kurdish villages between 1987-1988. The largest was the attack on Halabja which resulted in approximately 5,000 deaths. 2,000 Kurdish villages were destroyed during the campaign of terror.
Iraq's 13 million Shi'a Muslims, the majority of Iraq's population of approximately 22 million, face severe restrictions on their religious practice, including a ban on communal Friday prayer, and restriction on funeral processions.
According to Human Rights Watch, "senior Arab diplomats told the London-based Arabic daily newspaper al-Hayat in October [1991] that Iraqi leaders were privately acknowledging that 250,000 people were killed during the uprisings, with most of the casualties in the south." Refugees International reports that the "Oppressive government policies have led to the internal displacement of 900,000 Iraqis, primarily Kurds who have fled to the north to escape Saddam Hussein's Arabization campaigns (which involve forcing Kurds to renounce their Kurdish identity or lose their property) and Marsh Arabs, who fled the government's campaign to dry up the southern marshes for agricultural use. More than 200,000 Iraqis continue to live as refugees in Iran."
The U.S. Committee for Refugees, in 2002, estimated that nearly 100,000 Kurds, Assyrians and Turkomans had previously been expelled, by the regime, from the "central-government-controlled Kirkuk and surrounding districts in the oil-rich region bordering the Kurdish controlled north."
"Over the past five years, 400,000 Iraqi children under the age of five died of malnutrition and disease, preventively, but died because of the nature of the regime under which they are living." (Prime Minister Tony Blair, March 27, 2003) Under the oil-for-food program, the international community sought to make available to the Iraqi people adequate supplies of food and medicine, but the regime blocked sufficient access for international workers to ensure proper distribution of these supplies. Since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces have discovered military warehouses filled with food supplies meant for the Iraqi people that had been diverted by Iraqi military forces. And you still think we should've stayed out it, remarkable...

put simply since the CIA backed the rise to power of Saddam Husein it seems pretty ironic to be so obviously astounded by the atrocities he commited.

where was the US when he was using mustard gas in the war against Iran?
they were backing him with weapons sales. never did the US object to his use of the chemical weapons in warfare even knowing it was in conflict with the CWC.

if Saddam was such a madman tyrant for so long why did the US stop desert storm and wait fifteen + years of more atrocities before confronting the problem? the decision was made by a republican government to allow him to stay in power for all those extra years when a huge multi national force was already in place to deal with him then.

also economic sanctions have a long history of doing nothing to the governing body because its the people who suffer for them Cuba comes to mind as an example. they are put forth in the hope the people will rise against their government, this is so the sanctioners don't have to raise a finger to deal with a problematic government its a shame so many governments that are problematic and downright tyranic are the very creations of US foreign interferance in those countries by backing people who oppose the government in power that is unfriendly to US wishes they empower some seriously dispicable people who at first are US friendly but as the years go by and the atrocities become public rebel against the US's presure to change or else and then you get people like Saddam Hussein, Momar Kadafi, Manuel Noriega, The Shaw of Iran and many many more around the globe.

heres a paper you should read before you discount south american drugs being shipped to the US by the US:

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/nsaebb2.htm

[Jack Van Burace]

Exactly my point. US interfearance is not only unwanted, but very harmfull wherever it was installed. Mashu view is very romanticised, and denies the true effect/driving force of these military actions. But I'm glad these are brought online. Only this way we get to confront these misconceptions. For instance, there might be some reader here who really thought Amazon jungle was international territory, like Bush's school books teach, lol! Or trully believes in 'Captain America', travelling through the globe to free inocents and disperse freedom, huahuahua. I'm sorry to mock, but sometimes a reality check is needed. Otherwise the US citizens will just keep on supporting this terrorist making machine (CIA), and not understanding why doesn't terrorism ever ends...

[Mashu-truth seeker]

I don't think either of you understand what my point is... What I'm asking is the tyrannical oppresion that Saddam impossed whether it was helped by the US, paved by the US whatever, is still alright? Because the opinion I'm getting from both of you, is since the US allowed him to take power, that its alright that he stay in power. Because of the thousands of deaths he committed during his reign were indirectly the cause of the US nothing should be done about him. I just don't understand why fixing a problem is a wrong doing.

Plus the conflict of interests in this country is staggering, yes the US allows the shipment of drugs and certain branches secretly promote it, that doesn't mean there arn't others that oppose it. Plus the fact that if we completely cut outside drug importation Columbia, Peru etc economy's crumble since its a major part of their infastructure.

You both act as if everyone in the US is a fucking clone of Bush, we're not, sorry, I've had a problem with republican rule since I've been born, but since its my country it = my fault. Well whatever, I'd like to see how you'd both handle it, I'm sure with as perfect and without sin your countrys are we could do so much more for the world by staying out of all foreign affairs completely. The world isn't black and white, its a giant washed out grey area thats so complicated that almost no decision is without consequence. The world isn't a magical utopia where there arn't mass atrocities and horrible dictatorships, theres always going to be suffering, theres always going to be poor, theres always going to oppressed, subjigated masses of people, but if nobody does anything about it then the world would be much worse off than it already is. I'm sorry if everyone can't be happy, that every decision means someone loses out but thats the way it goes.

Bottom line, our puppet dictator went wacko, the world community wanted to help depose him then went back on it and pussyed out, so we did. Then come 15 years later we decide to finish the job and everyone yells "don't do it" well if hes our problem arn't we the ones that have to solve it, either let him run rampent or take him out in a bloody fashion, there was no middle ground. All I know is if he would've went unchecked the casualties would have been FAR higher than any we've committed over there. So why is it so horrible that we stopped him? Please tell me why he was better in power than out. Please, tell me, I'd like to know, since obviously the atrocities that I mentioned arn't enough to convince you. Also, we as a country can't stop all the horridities across the globe without help, which again obviously no one wants to help with since most of the UN just wants to sit on their hands and say everything is alright. "Deposing a despotic leader isn't ok, why didn't you do it for everyone?" I'm done, if the world wants to despise the US than fine, I would like to see the globe without our influence for a year and then you can see how utterly and completly fucked it becomes.

[Jack Van Burace]

Ok, what did North Korea do to threathen US? They only got their bombs after Bush choose to ignore Kim Jon Ill's non agression treaty, so it can't be the problem. They went to Iraq for Weapons of Mass Destruction. They want to invade Amazon jungle. They want to invade Venezuela. And you still think they are doing it because they are nice people, just willing to help?! Now where the hell did you get that??

I don't think you're a Bush clone. I think you don't understand the world's current scenario, that's all.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

You still didn't awnser my question, you think he was better in power, obviosly yes... thats what I'm going to assume from now on, and time and time again I've said the reasons for why we went in but you just still seem to think I'm ignorantly saying it was for just the taking out of a tyrant... I won't repeat myself again, its getting old, I've become a broken record because no one really reads what I'm saying so I'm done with debating a hate monger....

[dragoneyes001]

I don't think either of you understand what my point is... What I'm asking is the tyrannical oppression that Saddam imposed whether it was helped by the US, paved by the US whatever, is still alright?

NO its not all right but IF the US didn't keep creating these freaking monsters who run rampant murder on their peoples and cause all sorts of strife there wouldn't be a need to remove them in the first place!

and that's the point you keep avoiding!

besides the worlds largest problem is the standard of living levels.
the rich countries are quite literally starving other countries to keep their standard of living.

as long as we don't as a world fix the inequality of life among all countries there will always be reasons like taking Iraq over to protect the oil for US dollars hegemony (Iraq had changed to Euros) Iran has had nuclear reactors and has been researching nukes for over 20 years yet suddenly its tossed to the public via the media yet its also interesting that Iran is also switching oil for dollars to Euros at pretty much the time we started hearing Bush complaining about Iran.
Venezuela has had four coups against its democratically elected leader since they dropped the US dollar for its oil.

all of these events are centered around countries that threaten the US standard of living not the public security since none of these have the means to attack the US by military not like Iraq was going to toss 100,000 guard at US soil and they did not have any rockets that could either.

you know its easy to say the world is this and that from the comfort of your warm living room but have you ever been to any third world countries? I have! i