is it just me?

[mind_fissure]

is it just me or is it a little too convenient that bush reveals hes held suspected terrorists in secret prisons just before a video that incriminates them pops up? not only that but this one is subtitled. i believe that this bit of information has been manipulated by the government. i wonder to what end though. what's every ones' thoughts on it? (they should make a topic for world news)

[Vampyrelord]

Bush may be a lying worm but you are giving him way too much credit here.

Their war on terror has displayed nothing but incompetance and idiocy.

[Nihsnek]

Bush may be a lying worm but you are giving him way too much credit here.

Their war on terror has displayed nothing but incompetance and idiocy.

Last time I checked..

This is the debate section. Debate = Facts. Not randomized crappy opinions. And yes, that is a crappy opinion.

Please don't start opinioned threads with this crap, stop stirring the kettle.

[Kichi_Sama]

is it just me or is it a little too convenient that bush reveals hes held suspected terrorists in secret prisons just before a video that incriminates them pops up? not only that but this one is subtitled. i believe that this bit of information has been manipulated by the government. i wonder to what end though. what's every ones' thoughts on it? (they should make a topic for world news)

Ok....first off, it is a kinda loaded question you're asking here....but in answer, we need to really know everythigng!

Question it, why all of a sudden has this video come to light, why is it subtitled, whos made it, why have they made, when did they make it.....

There's too many whys whats and what nots surrounding this - it's a pot stirrer of an question and it could get messy!

[Neve]

@ Nishnek - It isn't your place to give your opinion on that, nor to call other people's posts 'crappy' - your post is a lot worse than vampyre's because it's a direct insult with the vulgar term 'crappy' of another's opinions. The thread is fine, and if people don't agree with it, it's even better, because then people actually debate. I won't warn you for now, but don't post something like that again, okay?

@ Vampyre - the post seems slightly iffy imo...you probably should back up your opinions with more supporting arguments next time for it to be considered a proper post. That said, this section has been without a fully active mod for some time, so while it is eventually my goal to remove all posts that don't have supporting arguments such as this one, I don't want to come down too harshly straight away.

[Nihsnek]

@ Nishnek - It isn't your place to give your opinion on that, nor to call other people's posts 'crappy' - your post is a lot worse than vampyre's because it's a direct insult with the vulgar term 'crappy' of another's opinions. The thread is fine, and if people don't agree with it, it's even better, because then people actually debate. I won't warn you for now, but don't post something like that again, okay?

Funny, I saw your original statement directed at Vampyre and I was going to move on. But, if this is how you want the debate section ran, fine with me.

The war on terror has demonstrated the strength of America, atleast some of us. We won't let terrorism hit us and walk away from it. This has already been proved previously. This war has given terrorism a direct blow. Israel defending itself has given terrorism a direct blow.

Luckily, Vampyre can say what he wants while he's not in the U.S. If we didn't defend ourselves, we would have been hit. Harder. Do you think John Kerry would pose a threat to the terrorist? NO!

How many people must be sacrificed! How many people must die for people to realize this! 1 million? 2 million? How many!?!!

@ Nihsnek - Emotion aside, Don't bash fellow debaters...thank you and have a good day. - Fect

[Kichi_Sama]

Funny, I saw your original statement directed at Vampyre and I was going to move on. But, if this is how you want the debate section ran, fine with me.

The war on terror has demonstrated the strength of America, atleast some of us. We won't let terrorism hit us and walk away from it. This has already been proved previously. This war has given terrorism a direct blow. Israel defending itself has given terrorism a direct blow.

Luckily, Vampyre can say what he wants while he's not in the U.S. If we didn't defend ourselves, we would have been hit. Harder. Do you think John Kerry would pose a threat to the terrorist? NO!

How many people must be sacrificed! How many people must die for people to realize this! 1 million? 2 million? How many!?!!

None. Terrorism is about retaliation. Cause and effect. The question should truly be....how far is America willing to push the envelope? Cos surely the harder they push, the harder the terrorist will push back!

[C.Payne]

Bush= Terrorist
Terrorist= Brains of Bush >_> Next lesson class is how to laugh when tony blair is kicked out of office.

I find both of them both as bad as each other to be honest. Bush does pointless things and the terrorists run about blowing themselves up for their god.

[Neve]

@ Nihsnek - I don't have to justify myself to you. I have no shame in editing my post after feeling the original unsuitable for the situation. You're officially warned. Any further argument or comments on this subject will get you banned. If you wish to know the reasons for your being warned, PM me, and I will be happy to oblige.

I apologise to everyone else in the thread for the disruption.

[Tokoyami]

@ Nihsnek - I don't have to justify myself to you. I have no shame in editing my post after feeling the original unsuitable for the situation. You're officially warned. Any further argument or comments on this subject will get you banned. If you wish to know the reasons for your being warned, PM me, and I will be happy to oblige.

I apologise to everyone else in the thread for the disruption.
dont worry about it.

Hm....The War on Terror. Well its true, this war on terror has struck at the big terrorist groups and such. But it is physically impossible to completely stop terrorism. there are simply to many people in the world to check or track to see if they are the enemy. It is an endless war with a purpose to me.

Bush.....

He's the president, so he gets that respect. But i dont view him as a authoritative figure. As a person, he's just this wimpy looking, big eared gnome lookin mofo whos bad with speech but knows how to make the ignorant crowd beleive in his ideas.

For the main subject, i dont think the government made the tape or anything. But its probable that they realeased it at the right time to make the president look good. Imo

[Fect]

2 Things we need to stop:

1) Short Posts, usually unwarranted.

2) Bashing anyone is a no-no. If I were to leave it alone, we would have some people on 1 side of the camp, most of the rest on the other, and few in the middle.

3) Mods don't have to tell the members why they took an action or posted as such, so long as it does not result in disciplinary action. For example, I don't have to justify that I have a #3 after saying I have two things to say.

[Nihsnek]

None. Terrorism is about retaliation. Cause and effect. The question should truly be....how far is America willing to push the envelope? Cos surely the harder they push, the harder the terrorist will push back!

Wrong. How can they push back if there's no terrorist groups left? The real question is, how far is America willing to stand-up to terrorism?

I laugh when I get warned for displaying some truth. I don't really see where I was bashing? I made several points, in a calm manner. Am I being single-out due to my views? Several bashing posts were directed at me before this, not a single word said. Yet, when I say the word "crap", hell's fires raise up. If you guys think I am trying to "emotional hurt" someone with internet "bashing", then I guess there's no need to keep debating.

[mind_fissure]

there is no such thing as destroying terrosim unless you plan on destroying an entire people of certain type of thinking and belief structure. people that are americans as well as muslim or islamic. it is more likely they will attack us again because of what we have done in the middle east.

[Nihsnek]

there is no such thing as destroying terrosim unless you plan on destroying an entire people of certain type of thinking and belief structure. people that are americans as well as muslim or islamic. it is more likely they will attack us again because of what we have done in the middle east.

Haha. I'm not sure you can 100% completely destory an idea, yet you can cripple it until it's on its knees. It is more likely that they won't attack us for what we've done in the Middle East: don't screw with America or anyone else.

[Vampyrelord]

@itsovernow: Sorry for the short post.

Haha. I'm not sure you can 100% completely destory an idea, yet you can cripple it until it's on its knees. It is more likely that they won't attack us for what we've done in the Middle East: don't screw with America or anyone else.

Or else you will join the hundreds of thousands of innocents who have died in Iraq, Afghanistan and Lebanon because of the Bush administration's aggressive incompetance.

The war on terror has cost billions of dollars (and the US government already has a massive budget deficit due to expensive wars and ridiculously low taxes) and thousands of lives, not just of loyal soldiers, but mainly of innocent civilians.

Do you realise that an average of 60-100 people die EVERY DAY due to violence in Bhagdad?

[mind_fissure]

Haha. I'm not sure you can 100% completely destory an idea, yet you can cripple it until it's on its knees. It is more likely that they won't attack us for what we've done in the Middle East: don't screw with America or anyone else.

that is an exteremly foolish way of thinking. you can bomb the middle east all you want. it won't matter to the terrorists that live in america. it will not hinder their progress, it will make them angry and hasten their progress knowing their familys are dieing. you can cut the branch off of a tree but that tree will continue to grow. all your doing is cutting off a branch the only way to kill the tree is to kill all of the people that have that belief structure including american citzens. in doing so i believe we would create a whole lot of enemys though, which would include myself.

[Wolfman Walt]

Or else you will join the hundreds of thousands of innocents who have died in Iraq, Afghanistan and Lebanon because of the Bush administration's aggressive incompetance.
Wait, so the Lebanon-Israel War is now our fault too? Cause you know, for a moment, I thought Hezbollah started that one when they started to mess with Israel and Israel decided not to sit this one out. I also like how you toss this out as the "Bush Administrations Incompetance" that gets these people killed instead of the actual problems such as Iran's funding of Hezbollah which is basically a thinly veiled front for the Iranian army, anarchists who wish to destabilize the Iraqi government, and people who were ousted out of power and now want back in. I forgot that THOSE people aren't the ones killing the innocent folks, it's the Bush Administration.

Do you realise that an average of 60-100 people die EVERY DAY due to violence in Bhagdad?
No I didn't, how about some evidence there instead of just saying a statistic. I'd also like to know why that average has such a big gap; 60-100 people isn't an average, it's a guesstimate.

you can bomb the middle east all you want. it won't matter to the terrorists that live in america.
it will make them angry
Then it matters to them.

[mind_fissure]

what i meant when i said "it doesn't matter to them" is that what happens in iraq won't stop the terrorists in america.

[Vampyrelord]

No I didn't, how about some evidence there instead of just saying a statistic. I'd also like to know why that average has such a big gap; 60-100 people isn't an average, it's a guesstimate.

Actually, they count the bodies as they arrive in the morgue.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19iraq.html?ex=1310961600&en=63fa30b7b648ac31&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

The overwhelming majority of these deaths are in Baghdad.

The invasion was badly planned - well, it was a stupid idea in the first place, but it was sure to aggrivate the Muslim extremists, and it has done so.

[Nihsnek]

Or else you will join the hundreds of thousands of innocents who have died in Iraq, Afghanistan and Lebanon because of the Bush administration's aggressive incompetance.

Do you realise that an average of 60-100 people die EVERY DAY due to violence in Bhagdad?

"Aggressive imcompetance"
He is aggresively failing a task?


Competence is the ability to perform some task.
Incompetence is its opposite. Competency means a sufficiency of means for the necessities and conveniences in life.

How did we "fail" the Iraq war? Did we fail by putting one of the most dangerous men ever, out of office and capturing him? Did we fail by crippling Al-Qaeda so that they are slowly crumbling? Ever day that passes, they get weaker.



The war on terror has cost billions of dollars (and the US government already has a massive budget deficit due to expensive wars and ridiculously low taxes) and thousands of lives, not just of loyal soldiers, but mainly of innocent civilians.

Wait, wait, wait. Massive budget due to ridiculously low taxes?????? So your in favor of taking more money from the people that run this country, and put it towards something that can easily be paid off? As Keyes' has stated several times, and what is just plain common sense, a country will go into debt due to a terrorism attack and fighting a war.

[Shinomori]

How did we "fail" the Iraq war? Did we fail by putting one of the most dangerous men ever, out of office and capturing him? Did we fail by crippling Al-Qaeda so that they are slowly crumbling? Ever day that passes, they get weaker.

No, we failed by going in un-supported, un-sanctioned, and un-welcomed. We've turned the whole world against us, Iraq is now a shithole full of armed militants, and we STILL haven't gotten the guy who ACTUALLY was responsible for the 9/11 attacks that got us into this mess in the first place.

Sounds like a failure to me!

And for the record, Al-Qaeda isn't getting weaker. If anything, they're getting stronger. Every day that we stay in and meddle in Middle Eastern affairs, more people join their side.


Wait, wait, wait. Massive budget due to ridiculously low taxes?????? So your in favor of taking more money from the people that run this country, and put it towards something that can easily be paid off? As Keyes' has stated several times, and what is just plain common sense, a country will go into debt due to a terrorism attack and fighting a war.


LOL.

Trillions of dollars are not "easily paid off". In fact, if all the countries in the world were to have us pay off our debts right now, we'd completely disintegrate as a country.


And we have a ridiculously large budget due to the current administration's inability to regulate their spending efficiently.

Since the start of the Bush Administration, federal spending has risen by 22%. Part of it is due to the war, true. Defense spending IS up 34%. However, non-defense spending is ALSO up 28%.

Compare this to the Clinton Administration, where non-defense spending actually went DOWN by .7%, and (after 6 years) had only seen a spending
increase of 3%, much due to inflation.

I think the numbers clearly show that the reason we have such an incredible debt is due to the Bush Administration's whimsical spending habits.

However, the tax cuts do also play a part. With such clearly political cuts (1.3 TRILLION DOLLARS IN TAX CUTS in June 2001, 350 billion more in May 2003, 136 billion for CORPORATIONS ONLY in October 2004 ), it's obvious that he was too busy trying to bribe his way into office by throwing money at everyone and everything. IF we had that extra 1.75 TRILLION DOLLARS of federal spending money, don't you THINK we wouldn't have as large of a deficit? NO. We wouldn't.

Incompetency by President Bush and this Congress has allowed America to sink into the depths of mediocrity as the most indebted nation and one of the most disliked nations.

Refute THAT.

[Tokoyami]

No, we failed by going in un-supported, un-sanctioned, and un-welcomed. We've turned the whole world against us, Iraq is now a shithole full of armed militants, and we STILL haven't gotten the guy who ACTUALLY was responsible for the 9/11 attacks that got us into this mess in the first place.
Sounds like a failure to me!
And for the record, Al-Qaeda isn't getting weaker. If anything, they're getting stronger. Every day that we stay in and meddle in Middle Eastern affairs, more people join their side.
LOL.
Trillions of dollars are not "easily paid off". In fact, if all the countries in the world were to have us pay off our debts right now, we'd completely disintegrate as a country.
And we have a ridiculously large budget due to the current administration's inability to regulate their spending efficiently.
Since the start of the Bush Administration, federal spending has risen by 22%. Part of it is due to the war, true. Defense spending IS up 34%. However, non-defense spending is ALSO up 28%.
Compare this to the Clinton Administration, where non-defense spending actually went DOWN by .7%, and (after 6 years) had only seen a spending
increase of 3%, much due to inflation.
I think the numbers clearly show that the reason we have such an incredible debt is due to the Bush Administration's whimsical spending habits.
However, the tax cuts do also play a part. With such clearly political cuts (1.3 TRILLION DOLLARS IN TAX CUTS in June 2001, 350 billion more in May 2003, 136 billion for CORPORATIONS ONLY in October 2004 ), it's obvious that he was too busy trying to bribe his way into office by throwing money at everyone and everything. IF we had that extra 1.75 TRILLION DOLLARS of federal spending money, don't you THINK we wouldn't have as large of a deficit? NO. We wouldn't.
Incompetency by President Bush and this Congress has allowed America to sink into the depths of mediocrity as the most indebted nation and one of the most disliked nations.
Refute THAT.

Now with everything that everyones said here, and all we know about this administration, the condition of the country, the economy, and these 2 wars we are fighting, does anyone feel insignificant?

I mean we've received tax cuts ((yay)) but these two wars we are fighting are hurtin the economy ((aw fwuk)). IT seems like Bush's only purpose for re-election was the war in iraq and the "war on terror".

[Nihsnek]

No, we failed by going in un-supported, un-sanctioned, and un-welcomed.

Un-supported? UN-SUPPORTED!?! No need to waste my time replying to that nonsense. Un-welcomed...well, let's see...your not supposed to be "welcomed" when your at war with someone are you? If you mean the Iraqi people "unwelcomed" us, then yet again, you are wrong.

We've turned the whole world against us, Iraq is now a shithole full of armed militants, and we STILL haven't gotten the guy who ACTUALLY was responsible for the 9/11 attacks that got us into this mess in the first place.
Sounds like a failure to me!
And for the record, Al-Qaeda isn't getting weaker. If anything, they're getting stronger. Every day that we stay in and meddle in Middle Eastern affairs, more people join their side.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/06/terrorr.detainees/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/09/04/transcript.tue/index.html#second

Some of the lastest.


Trillions of dollars are not "easily paid off". In fact, if all the countries in the world were to have us pay off our debts right now, we'd completely disintegrate as a country.
And we have a ridiculously large budget due to the current administration's inability to regulate their spending efficiently.
Since the start of the Bush Administration, federal spending has risen by 22%. Part of it is due to the war, true. Defense spending IS up 34%. However, non-defense spending is ALSO up 28%.
Compare this to the Clinton Administration, where non-defense spending actually went DOWN by .7%, and (after 6 years) had only seen a spending
increase of 3%, much due to inflation.
I think the numbers clearly show that the reason we have such an incredible debt is due to the Bush Administration's whimsical spending habits.
However, the tax cuts do also play a part. With such clearly political cuts (1.3 TRILLION DOLLARS IN TAX CUTS in June 2001, 350 billion more in May 2003, 136 billion for CORPORATIONS ONLY in October 2004 ), it's obvious that he was too busy trying to bribe his way into office by throwing money at everyone and everything. IF we had that extra 1.75 TRILLION DOLLARS of federal spending money, don't you THINK we wouldn't have as large of a deficit? NO. We wouldn't.
Incompetency by President Bush and this Congress has allowed America to sink into the depths of mediocrity as the most indebted nation and one of the most disliked nations.
Refute THAT.

Oh Shinomori, you once again ignore the facts.

If you know anything about economics, then you will know that tax cuts not only allow people to invest in this country more, but also boost the economy.

Why exactly is the non-defense spending up? Katrina???? 9/11????

[Habanero]

Un-supported? UN-SUPPORTED!?! No need to waste my time replying to that nonsense.

Yes, un-supported. There was pretty much one man in the whole world who was waving his banner for U.S at that point. Mr. Blair. You got some reluctant back-up forces, but in general I'd say you went there pretty much on your own.

Very nice explanation of the current economic shithole U.S has gotten itself into is in this thread:http://forums.bleachportal.net/showthread.php?t=18844

Read Hisaki's and Dragoneyes's posts in particular.

[Wolfman Walt]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19iraq.html?ex=1310961600&en=63fa30b7b648ac31&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

The overwhelming majority of these deaths are in Baghdad.

That's not evidence, thats you conjecturing again. It never ONCE says 60-100 people a day in baghdad. It just says a majority. Well guess what a majority is, 51 or higher. That's a really large disparity you have and it just doesn't cut it. I also like how you quote stuff from June when in August violence went down to a much lower number.

There was pretty much one man in the whole world who was waving his banner for U.S at that point
What, did Japan, ROK, Australia, Poland, etc suddenly stop counting as countries? You can try to debase them by saying they were reluctant, but that just isn't evidence. The fact is they sent troops when they were asked to.

what i meant when i said "it doesn't matter to them" is that what happens in iraq won't stop the terrorists in america.
And that's why we have police and federal agencies to stop them.

[Shinomori]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/06/terrorr.detainees/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/09/04/transcript.tue/index.html#second
Some of the lastest.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Kill one, another rises to take their place. It's one of the fundamental tenets of organizations, terrorist organizations being no exception.

Capturing/killing a whole 14 people won't do any good when you're fighting a multinational orginzation with THOUSANDS of members that are all willing to die for their cause, especially when the recruitment for the aforementioned organization is RISING.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,642825,00.html

And the reason more people joined is....THE IRAQ WAR!

At least, that's what EXPERTS say.

But I'm SURE you'd know better, wouldn't you?

[*Hollow*Ichigo]

1 thing is sure there certainly more den bush is saying and as always theres always a coverup to prevent panic same as global warming every1 knows dat the worlds gunna flood in like a couple centuries.

[Icestorm]

what creates extremists? extremists are created by the sense of hopelessness, how is it possible to stop that kind of mindset? other than to revamp entire countries? Religion is only the scape goat.

[Vampyrelord]

Shinomori is right. If they weren't driven by religion, they would be driven by nationalism. The simple truth is that they see their culture as being under assault from the west.

Israel's invasion of Lebanon only strengthened Hizbollah (on the last day of the fighting they launched more bombs into Israel than on any previous day) and our invasion of the Middle East has only srengthened the powerful militias. They say: "Look, foreigners are here, fighting and killing and occupying our land. They want our oil, and they want to make us live by western law and religion" - And because Bush is a Christian Fundamentalist, and because he's always talking about democracy in the middle east, and the crusade on terror, a lot of people believe them. We have also sparked off a sectarian conflict which is to this day ripping the country apart as the different militias fight for control.

A few weeks ago the BBC reported that a government investigation stated that Iraq is more likely to break down into civil war than to form a stable democracy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5240808.stm

And even if we DO get a democracy, they will just vote in terrorists!

[Tokoyami]

Un-supported? UN-SUPPORTED!?! No need to waste my time replying to that nonsense. Un-welcomed...well, let's see...your not supposed to be "welcomed" when your at war with someone are you? If you mean the Iraqi people "unwelcomed" us, then yet again, you are wrong.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/06/terrorr.detainees/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/09/04/transcript.tue/index.html#second
Some of the lastest.
Oh Shinomori, you once again ignore the facts.
If you know anything about economics, then you will know that tax cuts not only allow people to invest in this country more, but also boost the economy.
Why exactly is the non-defense spending up? Katrina???? 9/11????
Non defense spending is up because we are spending more on offense. Fighting on other fronts to be exact.

And because Bush is a Christian Fundamentalist, and because he's always talking about democracy in the middle east, and the crusade on terror, a lot of people believe them.
We shouldnt push democracy onto the middle east. I kno nobody, in there right mind, sees that ending well.

[Nihsnek]

Absolutely ridiculous.
Kill one, another rises to take their place. It's one of the fundamental tenets of organizations, terrorist organizations being no exception.
Capturing/killing a whole 14 people won't do any good when you're fighting a multinational orginzation with THOUSANDS of members that are all willing to die for their cause, especially when the recruitment for the aforementioned organization is RISING.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,642825,00.html
And the reason more people joined is....THE IRAQ WAR!
At least, that's what EXPERTS say.
But I'm SURE you'd know better, wouldn't you?

What experts? The kid down the block?

You don't seem to understand...which doesn't surprise me. When leadership in an organization weakens, then the group losses strength. They are put in more fear, more fear that their attacks won't destroy us. When they understand that whatever they do, it won't break us.

14 people don't matter eh. I'm guessing they grow money trees over in the Middle East? Every group needs a money-man, no money = nothing.

By Israel kicking Hezbollah's butt, Hezbollah is now stronger??? So, Hezbollah got so strong that they had to beg for mercy...ok...

P.S: Thank you Wolfman more making some points.

[Tokoyami]

What experts? The kid down the block?
You don't seem to understand...which doesn't surprise me. When leadership in an organization weakens, then the group losses strength. They are put in more fear, more fear that their attacks won't destroy us. When they understand that whatever they do, it won't break us.
14 people don't matter eh. I'm guessing they grow money trees over in the Middle East? Every group needs a money-man, no money = nothing.
By Israel kicking Hezbollah's butt, Hezbollah is now stronger??? So, Hezbollah got so strong that they had to beg for mercy...ok...
P.S: Thank you Wolfman more making some points.

That domino effect of destruction for an organization only applies to those groups that rely on the leader for strength. Terrorist groups dont operate in such away. If Osama was found, killed, or died, it would not weaken his followers or group, another would rise up and take his place.

Terrorist groups dont operate like governments whenit comes to military strategy and chain o command.

on top of all that. Why do you think they will crumble if we kill a few leaders?

[Shinomori]

What experts? The kid down the block?
You don't seem to understand...which doesn't surprise me. When leadership in an organization weakens, then the group losses strength. They are put in more fear, more fear that their attacks won't destroy us. When they understand that whatever they do, it won't break us.
14 people don't matter eh. I'm guessing they grow money trees over in the Middle East? Every group needs a money-man, no money = nothing.
By Israel kicking Hezbollah's butt, Hezbollah is now stronger??? So, Hezbollah got so strong that they had to beg for mercy...ok...
P.S: Thank you Wolfman more making some points.

WOW.

Experts = leading journalists. Which you would KNOW if you actually paid attention to posts. TIME does not have "kids down the block" writing their renowned magazine.

Iraq != Lebanon.

Al-Qaeda != Hezbollah.

I didn't even MENTION them. The debate was about IRAQ and AL-QAEDA. Quit bringing your irrelevant bullshit arguments in here. The facts state that Al-Qaeda recruitment is RISING due to us going into Iraq. You're wrong. Face it. FACTS DO NOT LIE.

[Icestorm]

Id have to agree with Shino .. that was pretty dam irrelevant

the point being is that terrorists will always exist aslong as the world is like it is, meaning when there is still inbalance in the countries.. terrorism/extremists (extremists are what we are talking about right?) will always exist aslong as such hopelessness exists.. they find someone to blame (sometimes quite rightly) and therfore act on that blame, for they cannot do anything else..

Do you think that the worlds problems can be destroyed by simply killing the leaders of terrorist groups?

[Neve]

@ Shinomori

Such comments as

Quit bringing your irrelevant bullshit arguments in here

are not in accordance with the rules and further use of them will get you warned.

[Shinomori]

@ Shinomori

Such comments as



are not in accordance with the rules and further use of them will get you warned.

Yes, and so are off topic arugments.

But we'll just ignore that, shall we?

[Neve]

*sigh*

If you had read the rules, you would know that off-topic arguments do not merit a warning, official or unofficial, unless they go on for over a page. Swearing at other people's arguments do merit a warning, as does arguing with or commenting on decisions made by the moderation. You're officially warned, any further comments about this in the thread will get you banned. Should you happen to have any questions about the rules, you may address them to me via PM.

I apologise for the disturbance, everyone - feel free to resume the debate.

[mooks]

Hebollah are by no means weak, in any factor...

They are paying the rebuilding and rent for one year for all civilians affected by the Israeli bombing campaign, considering that over a million people are displaced; that is alot of building and rent... the government is not even able to move that fast...

About the terrorists... it's true- killing 14 or whatever will do nothing in the long run or short... Islamic fundamentalism was borne out of response of the mal-treatment of muslims. It's an idealogy, you can't fight an idealogy with weapons. Infact, the more that get killed... the stronger their movement becomes.

Ofcourse, the problem is that the people fighting the 'terrorists' do not know the root cause or reason. Or rather they prefer to define by themselves what they are thinking or conforming... phrases such as 'terrorists are against free speech/peace and democracy' is the most ignorant way to view any situation.

It's almost inconcievable to think that people want to destroy the United States and/or what it stands for, just because they want anarchy or the genocide of a nation. People are against the military campaigns, imperialism and economic domination by a foreign country... which is what the US is in the eyes of everybody (excluding the UK, Israel and Australia) around the world.

Obviously I wouldn't like hearing such things about my country- i would be doubtful, if not offended. So I guess it is understandable that the majority of the population would not want to believe what other people say their country is doing, but rather what their country is saying what their doing.

But eventually, or inevitably there has to be a point of realisation, or acceptance of the crimes or injustices caused and their initial effect (such as 'Islamic fundamentalism' 'terrorism' or whatever you wanna call it)

oh yeah, is it just me, or does Osama seem to pop up every time before Bush has some major election, poll or vote goes on??? check out the consistency of his mixtape releases anywhere online and cross-reference them with any major thing Bush is involved in

[Tokoyami]

Hebollah are by no means weak, in any factor...
They are paying the rebuilding and rent for one year for all civilians affected by the Israeli bombing campaign, considering that over a million people are displaced; that is alot of building and rent... the government is not even able to move that fast...
About the terrorists... it's true- killing 14 or whatever will do nothing in the long run or short... Islamic fundamentalism was borne out of response of the mal-treatment of muslims. It's an idealogy, you can't fight an idealogy with weapons. Infact, the more that get killed... the stronger their movement becomes.
Ofcourse, the problem is that the people fighting the 'terrorists' do not know the root cause or reason. Or rather they prefer to define by themselves what they are thinking or conforming... phrases such as 'terrorists are against free speech/peace and democracy' is the most ignorant way to view any situation.
It's almost inconcievable to think that people want to destroy the United States and/or what it stands for, just because they want anarchy or the genocide of a nation. People are against the military campaigns, imperialism and economic domination by a foreign country... which is what the US is in the eyes of everybody (excluding the UK, Israel and Australia) around the world.
Obviously I wouldn't like hearing such things about my country- i would be doubtful, if not offended. So I guess it is understandable that the majority of the population would not want to believe what other people say their country is doing, but rather what their country is saying what their doing.
But eventually, or inevitably there has to be a point of realisation, or acceptance of the crimes or injustices caused and their initial effect (such as 'Islamic fundamentalism' 'terrorism' or whatever you wanna call it)
oh yeah, is it just me, or does Osama seem to pop up every time before Bush has some major election, poll or vote goes on??? check out the consistency of his mixtape releases anywhere online and cross-reference them with any major thing Bush is involved in

Its not just you. I noticed somethin like that. I found a place where i can see all the tapes, i wanna do my own investigation into them. And im bettin on the chance that i'll find somethin wrong with them. When im done i wanna makea topic here about it.

[Nihsnek]

WOW.
Experts = leading journalists. Which you would KNOW if you actually paid attention to posts. TIME does not have "kids down the block" writing their renowned magazine.
Iraq != Lebanon.
Al-Qaeda != Hezbollah.
I didn't even MENTION them. The debate was about IRAQ and AL-QAEDA. Quit bringing your irrelevant bullshit arguments in here. The facts state that Al-Qaeda recruitment is RISING due to us going into Iraq. You're wrong. Face it. FACTS DO NOT LIE.

Ladies and gentlemen! Another example of a lashed out attack!

Anyways, I was addressing Hezbollah and Israel to Vampyre. Which you would've known if you would've read. Simple.

Where did I say that recruitment wasn't rising? Where? Please, point it out to me, since i'm such a moron to you.

You still haven't addressed my real point, what about the money-man? Does money grow on trees? Are you to ignorant to make a reply?

You haven't really made a point....which once again, doesn't surprise me.

[Shinomori]

Show me where they've killed the "money-man", and where it shows that none other has replaced him.

Until then, I'll just ignore you like you do me.

Oh, and ION, I'm expecting you to warn him for calling me "ignorant."

Anything less would be unfair.

[Hattori]

I'm not going to take a side here; I'll just play devil's advocate and point out some things which seem illogical to me. Please address these so I may better understand your argument.

Ladies and gentlemen! Another example of a lashed out attack!

Please do not rub in moderator interventions. We do not exist as tools for you to further your argumentation.


Anyways, I was addressing Hezbollah and Israel to Vampyre. Which you would've
known if you would've read. Simple.

Merely the fact that the target of your argument was intercepted does not negate the validity of the interception.


Where did I say that recruitment wasn't rising? Where? Please, point it out to me, since i'm such a moron to you.

So you concede the point that terrorist recruitment is rising. Doesn't that mean you lose ground? The terrorists are getting stronger due to our actions - this is counter to your position, no?


You still haven't addressed my real point, what about the money-man? Does money grow on trees? Are you to ignorant to make a reply?

Actually, the Federal Board, as well as various independant research organizations, have shown that in the past five years, the difference between Bush's expected economic increase and the actual economic increase of the United States is on an order of trillions of dollars. His taxcuts have not even begun to make up for their negative direct impact on the United States economy.

You haven't really made a point....which once again, doesn't surprise me.

Refrain from insulting the other party, both of you. It is uncivil.

@Shinomori: He didn't use profanity, thus he wasn't warned.

[mooks]

It's really interesting how people can think they can fight an ideal with weapons... reminds me of Reagan's 'war on drugs' there seems to be wars on alot of inanimate objects and trains of thought... except an indentifiable enemy (like a certain country, ethnicity). Which reminds me of another thing... before 9/11, no american knew what a sunni or shi'ite was... they also didn't know the difference between Islam and the fundamentalism part (they still don't, actually) - all of a sudden, in a space of three or four years- they have become adamant experts on Islam, arabs and fundamentalism. The sheer fact that they cannot differentiate between al-qaeda and taliban, hezbollah and Iran and their relation or lack of to saddam shows they're inability to properly come to a conclusion regarding their actions.

If anyone would pay attention to the root cause of all these problems... it wouldn't be such a difficult thing to fathom.
Instead of concocting a scapegoat for their actions against America

[Icestorm]

I agree

they seem to conduct wars on the most insubstantial things that in all logic are impossible to be rid of. Perhaps if they get communism working around the world.. (LOL).. then they would be rid of the things that cause terrorism, until then more people die in a hopeless cause. This ofcourse is in all accounts a scape goat for America to spread democracy/ gain more resources that they do not have.

[Vampyrelord]

In my humble opinion we Americans have to think very carefully why these terrorists want to kill us. Sure, we can go over there, trash the religious regimes and give them democracy, but so what? They'll just end up voting for religious extremists again, and our military presence there gives them an excuse to cause all kinds of trouble.

1) We support Israel, no matter what they do. Heck, we stood by and praised them whilst they killed schoolchildren with cluster bombs.

2) We arrogantly send our troops all across the world, we support pro-American dictators like Pervez Musharraf (and Saddam too, until we needed a scapegoat) and we occupy areas of the Middle East.

These two things are the main reasons why these Muslim extremists hate us and are so capable of drawing such large support. If we minded our own business and stopped encouraging Israel to pick fights with the whole Muslim world, this extremism would be quickly abandoned.

[shadow_of_89]

U are right.....i've recently talked with a palestinian that came into my country BC of the crisis that occured in Palestina and he told me that Israel is somehow is trying to do the same things like the germans did before and during the WW2
I don't know if this is true....and he didn't want to talk more about it....and concerning the islamic extremists i must say that those do not represent the religion itself...but only groups of interest

[Icestorm]

I disagree.. I think that there will always be some reason that terrorist exist, or is it that we are debating the reason for terrorists against America or terrorists in general? not sure.. but I think that in either case America will always pick fights. It is to put it simply a war-monger government.

[shadow_of_89]

I am not sure if America will hold on creating new fronts and trying to create a sphere of influence that will cover the entire world....As i see it the current government indeed creates anger and hatered and will eventually create a collapse

[Shinomori]

I disagree.. I think that there will always be some reason that terrorist exist, or is it that we are debating the reason for terrorists against America or terrorists in general? not sure.. but I think that in either case America will always pick fights. It is to put it simply a war-monger government.

Yes, and Australia is where all people go when they need to get stabbed by stingrays.

Generalization is BAD.

Now, let's do this nicely. Bush is a "war-monger". Eh...debatable. WMDs are the new Tonkin Gulf incident - they CLAIMED it happened so they could attack, but it turns out it really didn't. However, then you have the point that he was acting on his best interests because that was all the intelligence he has.

Let's see.

World War I. Definately NOT started by the US.

World War II. Also definately NOT started by the US.

Korean War. Started by the US, but started for a justifiable reason according to the information we had at the time.

Vietnam War. Started by the Vietnamese people themselves in an effort to start a rebellion against the current government. US joined fight on side of democratic South Vietnam.

Gulf War. Iraq invades Kuwait. US intervenes.

Gulf War II. Afghani (in all probability, anyways) terrorists attack America. US responds. US gets intelligence (later proven faulty) that there were "WMD"s in Iraq. US intervenes.



War-mongering my ass. That's called a course of safety. War-mongering is Hitler, Hussein, or Genghis Khan. NOT the United States.

Facts first opinions later, kthxbai.

[Vampyrelord]

Yes, and Australia is where all people go when they need to get stabbed by stingrays.
Generalization is BAD.
Now, let's do this nicely. Bush is a "war-monger". Eh...debatable. WMDs are the new Tonkin Gulf incident - they CLAIMED it happened so they could attack, but it turns out it really didn't. However, then you have the point that he was acting on his best interests because that was all the intelligence he has.
Let's see.
World War I. Definately NOT started by the US.
World War II. Also definately NOT started by the US.
Korean War. Started by the US, but started for a justifiable reason according to the information we had at the time.
Vietnam War. Started by the Vietnamese people themselves in an effort to start a rebellion against the current government. US joined fight on side of democratic South Vietnam.
Gulf War. Iraq invades Kuwait. US intervenes.
Gulf War II. Afghani (in all probability, anyways) terrorists attack America. US responds. US gets intelligence (later proven faulty) that there were "WMD"s in Iraq. US intervenes.
War-mongering my ass. That's called a course of safety. War-mongering is Hitler, Hussein, or Genghis Khan. NOT the United States.
Facts first opinions later, kthxbai.

As to the invasion of Iraq - completely untrue. We had absolutely no evidence at all that Saddam had WMDs, the capability to make WMDs, or that he was even attempting to aquire WMDs. It has already been proved (by a leaked document) that Bush and Blair were planning to invade Iraq in Spring 2003, regardless of what evidence there was concerning WMDs.

Reference:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1592724,00.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1663752,00.html

(I'll post some more links later, if need be)

Bush is unquestionably a war-mongerer. Why? He is gung-ho about war. He starts fights when we don't need them. He thinks invading countries is the answer to all the world's problems.

You also failed to mention all the wars we started in the Southern Hemisphere during the Cold war and our "Crusade" against communism. Have you forgotten all the dictators and warlords we supported simply because they weren't communists? We funded violence in countries like Guatamala and Malaysia throughout the Cold War in order to combat Communism.

[dragoneyes001]

for one thing GITMO has been well publicised since its start of use by Bush for terror detainees.

he would not have been revealing anything new by addmiting to its existance only that the detained are still being held under very questionable conditions without any likely charges against them.

[Icestorm]

agreed vampyre

"Vietnam War. Started by the Vietnamese people themselves in an effort to start a rebellion against the current government. US joined fight on side of democratic South Vietnam."

America has a bad habit of intervening where it is not needed.. They esculate battles into wars.

why do you think they rebelled? it was because of a corrupt American backed official that was taking all the food profits. Thats what started the Guerilla's. Or am I thinking of a different problem that America caused?

Did you know that there was going to be a Korean election coming up? America did.. and yet they still went ahead..

Simple things that could have been avoided, had America not become involved.