Soul society screwed up?

[bacons extra]

I haven't read the manga, so if this is question is easily answered through the manga than sorry.

I've watched all the anime episodes up to date and I have say soul society is screwed up. I mean why are the people who aren't shinigami so poor and displaced. I mean in bleach universe isn't that place supposed to be heaven. That sucks its like either become a mindless soul eating beast or go a poverty sticken world where you may die again. It seems soul society position on this is look the other way. It also appears there all about order and nothing for its people.

I may be just be just me or my ignorance(not read on manga) but I think soul society itself needs some type of reformation. I just think its pretty ridiculous they're fighting to save souls, only to put them in a more precarious situation than they might have been before they became ghosts.

let me know what you guys think(other than Im an idiot who hasn't read the manga, which i will but when I read I read in bulk so I have to find time to sit down and do it :) )

[SHiKaMaRi]

There are like, 80 districts in North Rukongai, 80 in South Rukongai, another 80 in East, another 80 is West. The 1st district is always the best, peaceful and lawful, whereas 80 is full of... violence and others. Soul Society isn't all screwed up, really.. Just depends on which district you go to.

[Centro]

I think its 80 districts in total, not 80 on each point of the compass.

And I think an important point to remember is that only souls with spirit power need to eat. The rest just like eating. So they aren't really starving or anything. There are shops and thieves and stuff just because people are greedy.

[SHiKaMaRi]

I think its 80 districts in total, not 80 on each point of the compass.

And I think an important point to remember is that only souls with spirit power need to eat. The rest just like eating. So they aren't really starving or anything. There are shops and thieves and stuff just because people are greedy.

Mm, I checked Wikipedia and it said 320 districts in total, 80 on each side of the compass.

[Centro]

Ahhh true, there are 320, my bad.

[Iro]

Personally, i imagined soul society to be a place where you can be happy, where you feel safe, more likely like a perfect place to be, heaven or paradise in other words but after seeing the true soul society i had the feeling of uncertainty, maybe its probably i expected soo much and then it turned out to be what it is now. I dont know... it just needs improvements :)

[Undying]

Well actually, Rukongai isn't much different from real-life - some places are filled with crime and otehrs, while some places are peacful and stuff.

I think that it has to do with something in Buddhism that states that there isn't a real Heaven for people who haven't reached enlightemet...

[athenaofstarlite]

Well actually, Rukongai isn't much different from real-life - some places are filled with crime and otehrs, while some places are peacful and stuff.
I think that it has to do with something in Buddhism that states that there isn't a real Heaven for people who haven't reached enlightemet...

That's true - and probably the best explaination, considering that 84% of Japan is Buddhist. However, I did think, while watching the SS arc, that SS needs a better system. The Shinigami stay cooped up in Seiretei and never seem to help, or even see the souls in the rest of Rukongai. Reform might happen if Yama-jii dies.

[Hattori]

Actually, SS's concentration of power is extremely unfair. Remember that the sections closest to Seireitei - Districts 1 and such - are still extremely poor when compared to Kuchiki Byakuya, whose scarf alone can purchase ten manors.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

I say POWER TO THE SOULS!! lol, in another thread I said SS should be run by a council government with voting for all the souls of all the districts. Base the principal on a normal democracy with representatives from the 320 districts... Or perhaps in SS communism might work since no one really needs to work or eat, just exist, hehe

[Cloud]

theres really nothing wrong with SS. the only problem is in the souls greedyness. they dont need to eat/work/do anything really, yet they choose to attack each other for food and wealth which really isnt neccesary. Rukongai could easily be a Utopia if the ones living in it werent so corrupt and greedy

[Mashu-truth seeker]

All it really needs then is policing, like a normal country, just some authority in general instead of these demi-gods that do nothing but scoff at your existance by wearing what they do, living where they are and gloating about it basicly, lol Have every district begin a police force thats overseen by the captains and divisions. Because I agree in general, its not a nice place to live unless your nobility...

[ManjiSTP]

Yeah, as I've said before elsewhere, SS is basically a centralised bureaucracy which is very conservative and stuck in its ways.

Basically, power resides in one place, and there's no real way to influence it (unless you have some hypnotic powers and a murderous streak!) and since shinigami live for so long, the leadership will be around for aaaages.... This means that the whole system is very rigid and dry, and debacles like the "let's all execute Rukia for no apparent reason" can happen. Yamamoto is clearly very old, even for a shinigami, and his two closest friends (he says that they are practically his sons) Ukitake and Shunsui, are now mainky against his opinions and his way of ruling.

The problem is, SS is essentially a bureaucracy - that is, it's run off paperwork and everything is departmentalised... It really makes for a clumsy and inefficient system. All sorts of errors can be made and go unrectified for such a long time and almost everyone involved is but another cog in the vast machine.

I imagine this will play a part in Bleach later on - I'm up to date with the manga and it hasn't been really brought to the forefront yet, but there are several hints about it so far, many of which have been made in the anime.

[TwilightFlower]

And we have come full circle to what may happen if Yamamoto, the main supporter of the current system, dies.

Right now, SS is in a pretty good position to witness some sort of restructuring of the system. There are quite a few captains, vice captains, and seated officers that we know of who are from some of the less savory districts of Rukongai. They understand the problems with Rukongai and likely have some desire to correct the problems. Yes, becoming Shinigami was their way out, but that doesn't mean they have forgotten their roots. If Yamamoto is out of the picture, new modes of thinking will be allowed to surface (depending on who succeeds him) and things might have a chance to get better.

[Hattori]

Someone should just kill Yamamoto/all the stick-in-the-mud Shinigami (except Byakuya, he's cool) and assert their power. In fact, here at the Club Bleach RPG, that's exactly what we (read: I) are/am trying to do.

[TwilightFlower]

Personally I don't see why Aizen just didn't go that route instead of running. I think he could take on the old man. I can actually see Aizen killing Yamamoto off during some major battle, causing either an immediate retreat on the part of SS or an emergent leader to take the field and eventually be promoted. I hope the latter occurs and that after this new leader takes charge, things will loosen up and improve in SS.

[Decado]

It is shocking to find that once you die and go up to heaven / SS, you really do have no choice but to live out another life, and that too could be in a dump.
I read a book just recently that had this little 'story' in it - it might be from something religious like the Bible i'm not sure - but it does apply:

'There was a man who was very rich and lived a good life and he prayed regurarly. He kept faith in God all his life but never once did he help those around him. When he died he was taken to heaven and an angel appraoched him to take him where he would live.
They first passed he richest area, with huge palaces and all around him were things of gold and jewels, etc. He asked if he was to live there and the angel said no. They kept moving and they got to a slightly poorer place, where the housees weren't made of gold but were still very nice.
The man repeated his question and the angel again answered no. They kept going on like this until he reached a muddy palce by a river. The house there was built of worn out timber, hastily put together with mud. It was very small. The angel said this was his home. The man asked y.
The angel said 'it was all they could do with the materials he'd sent up.'
~
It could be that the ppl who are "assigned" to the poorer areas are there for a reason.

[Thelindra]

thats....so sad >_<"
it tells us that we help one anotherr?

[Decado]

lol, yeah. i'm surprised u took the time to read that!!
but yeah...i guess for some ppl the suffering never stops
ie/ if they're not in a position to help any1 and if the above is true

[Thelindra]

keke, i lovee stories like that^^
suffering= karma optained?
*thinks*

[Decado]

does any1 actually know the source of that story? its most likely not from the book i just read (a fiction - so if it is the author created it). i read another one sorta like that in the same book but it was much much better, tho i'm not sure if i should actually post it here...is there a another section it would fit in...somehow? lol

[Thelindra]

lol, if u do post it, rememeber to send me a link of it, keke^^

[keikai89]

On the whole, I would agree with you. When I first watched the anime, the way Rukia portrayed Soul Society to be, was something more heavenly, rather than what it really turned out to be afterwards when Ichigo and friends showed up to rescue her. It wasn't what I had imagined it to be. I suppose the captains and higher order people care more about settling outside disputes like Hollows and troublemakers rather than the comfort of those souls sent in their care. It has its own pros and cons, since they do need to take care of all those outside troubles in order to maintain Soul Society as it is. It would have been better if they could treat the souls nicer, rather than treating them like 'Beggers'.

[ManjiSTP]

That's a nice story, but remember, the people that did anything truly wrong in life go to hell. Only people that didn't sin during their life get to go to SS at all. Though, it is pretty hard to tell what the souls in Rukongai were like in life, because once they end up in one of the districts they'll have to change to survive - their environment will change them, basically. Everyone in Zaraki, the worst area, will have to become some cut-throat bastard or they'll be killed. If they end up in the nicest area then they can afford to be relaxed and much more friendly.

Also remember that families from the real world never really end up together in Rukongai. It's unlikely that the members of the same family should vary so much in terms of karma time and time again. It seems to me that it's entirely random where souls go in Rukogai - if anything that's another way that it's so unfair. Not only does it break up families but it also doesn't reward you for what you did in life (aside from the fact that you must have been reasonably good or else you'd have ended up im hell.)

As a sort of side note, I think there's been quite a contadiction about the souls in Rukongai. I'm 90% sure that at some point in the fillers somebody said that the souls of Rukongai can't die, but they can still feel pain and suffer. Well, not only is that obviously wrong since shinigami themselves can die (hence people accepting Aizen's death, Kaien, any shinigami ever killed in the line of duty,etc.) so if Rukongai souls couldn't die then they could just easily overwhelm Seireitei, but we also see Renji and Rukia's childhood friends' graves as well, after they eventually succumb to the risks of living in such a dangerous area. I'll look into this if I get the time (and can be bothered to re-watch filler...)

[chakra25]

You guys have to remember that the definition of "Heaven" is different from the Western part of the world. The word "Heaven" in Bleach does not mean "Paradise" as in Christianity. It has nothing to do with Christianity.

IN many Asian traditions, Heaven is referred to a second world or second life. You live your spirit life in a spirit world just like on earth. In Asian funerals, you can see people burning "ghost moneys, paper cars, paper house, and paper servants. When you burn those items you are giving your dead relatives money, cars, and a house in the spirit world.

The truly evil person are sent to hell. Based upon the crimes or evil acts in the real life, there are different level of punishment. You just don't burn in hell like the christian tradition. For example, if you rape someone, you spend an eternity climbing a mountain with knives sticking out of everywhere. Ouch!

You can expect crappy part the spirit world as well. Because they still preserve their human nature in the second life. There are no truly evil ones since they are passed off to Hell like the hollow in the parrot episode. I guess in Bleach, the shinigami acts as the police and military of the spirit world. The Office of 46 is the government of Soul Society which makes the laws. Shinigami enforces them.

[ManjiSTP]

You guys have to remember that the definition of "Heaven" is different from the Western part of the world. The word "Heaven" in Bleach does not mean "Paradise" as in Christianity. It has nothing to do with Christianity.
IN many Asian traditions, Heaven is referred to a second world or second life. You live your spirit life in a spirit world just like on earth. In Asian funerals, you can see people burning "ghost moneys, paper cars, paper house, and paper servants. When you burn those items you are giving your dead relatives money, cars, and a house in the spirit world.
The truly evil person are sent to hell. Based upon the crimes or evil acts in the real life, there are different level of punishment. You just don't burn in hell like the christian tradition. For example, if you rape someone, you spend an eternity climbing a mountain with knives sticking out of everywhere. Ouch!
You can expect crappy part the spirit world as well. Because they still preserve their human nature in the second life. There are no truly evil ones since they are passed off to Hell like the hollow in the parrot episode. I guess in Bleach, the shinigami acts as the police and military of the spirit world. The Office of 46 is the government of Soul Society which makes the laws. Shinigami enforces them.

Yeah that's what I think. I even made the same point that there won't be any truly evil people in Rukongai because they'll have gone to hell. Though I did say that people may well turn evil once they have to survive in some of the worse areas.

It's similar in some ways to the afterlife in DBZ, where it's a big bureacreacy. In DBZ it's handled more jokingly, but all the paperwork, departments and coldness are the same. I say "coldness" because the workers in these afterlives, don't really care so much about their "clients" - they're just letting the system deal with them.

Anyway, I don't know where the idea of "heaven" in Bleach even came from. It's stated clearly several times that it isn't heaven. That such a place doesn't even exist. Aizen says that he wants to make a true heaven, with a god and all that - and that he will be the god. He points out that many people are disappointed when SS doesn't match up with their expectations, based on the mortal views of the afterlife, heaven, Shangri-La or whatever you want to call it.

[Undying]

IMO Soul Society=Feudal/Shogunate Japan in terms of sociality. Notice that we have all the nobility stuck in one place (much like Feudals, but more like the Shogun times: a Shogun (Spirit King) and a whole army defending him - the Gotei 13, the Royal Guards) and a generally uraban (though sometimes more rural) area surrounding him, with things such as crime, red-light distrcits, and the such in abundance the further you are from the main power).

[ManjiSTP]

Yes, but to be honest that blueprint is a pretty universal one, even in modern cities. All cities have the lovely, pristine area that is surrounded by proressively worse slums or at least run-down undesirable area. Then as you get further out, and the city fades, you get nice areas again (like where Kuukaku live, in the case of SS).

I think the key with SS isn't so much the inequality per se - as that could have been represented simply by having the shinigami all as knights or rich lords in mansions with no responsibilities - but the bureaucratic side, as time and time again it goes back to departments, ranks, permissions, duties and duty-bound people (Ukitake and Byakuya) as well as the epic inefficiency that only bureaucracy can give rise to.

[TwilightFlower]

I think in some measure the inequality is almost expected. You can't have that many individuals in one place without some form of inequality arising. That's human nature and that doesn't fade away or leave us after death. But the red tape that everyone has to go through to get stuff done is just ridiculous. I mean, Renji asked Byakuya's permission to release his sword before their battle. Renji was going against his captain and still asked for permission to do so.

Granted, Renji is a pretty devoted VC, but it shows you the mindset that the Shinigami have gotten into.

[ManjiSTP]

There's also the socio-political theory (ooh, get a load of me... :p) that states, to put it simply, that in order for there to be a ruling class, they must have something to rule over. Certain theories state that there needs to be suffering, poverty, conflict etc for the middle and upper classes to sort of float on top of.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Yes, thats all well and good but it doesn't change the fact people don't really need to DO anything in SS... When you don't have to eat or sleep what is there to keep you occupied, most people work jobs and earn money for those two things alone. I don't even understand how theres a 'currency' system there so how is there rich and poor... I don't see the SS mint or anything of the sort. It's just a plot device, the show would be pretty boring if SS was just a bunch of people talking about past lives/philosophy.

Personally I don't understand why theres not MORE chaos there just because everyone has such an overabundance of time. In the end I think the rich and poor aren't divided on those terms but on Spirit power, seems the most well off souls are the ones that can walk around unchecked because no one is "powerful" enough to stop them. And the system the central court uses was probobly made by a bunch of bored well off Shinigami with nothing else to do but come up with a system that would funnel the money their way, and whos gonna oppose them?

[ManjiSTP]

Ehh... It's pretty hard to explain. I don't know if you've read 1984 or Brave New World, but there's a lot of ideas about this sort of thing in there. Basically, if the ruling classes want to survive they need a lower class that suffers indefinitely. It doesn't matter if it makes sense, as long as the heirarchy is upheld.

It's sort of like the way in which corporations always make new things for us to strive for. One minute we want nice neat hair so we should by product A and B, but the next minute the "just got out of bed" look is cool, so now we want product X and Y. Or maybe fashion's not your thing - maybe it's books, films, games... hardware for your PC. Whatever it is, there's sure to be an inexhaustible supply of new stuff and upgrades - all employed to keep you spending your hard earned cash. If you just stopped wanting these pointless things, you wouldn't have to work or study as hard - but then the whole system would grind to a halt.

SS is like that, there's no real point to it, but it's a system with a high and low class. The low class aren't happy but begrudgingly accept it, especially since they don't really know how to change it, and the high classes happily leave things as they are. Every so often a higher class person has the moral strength to sense the injustice but they are just one voice amongst many and get drowned out. Even if they succeed, a new heirarchy is formed and the whole thing repeats itself. Like I said, if you haven't, reading Brave New World and/or 1984 would explain mankinds weird addiction to this seemingly futile system.

[TwilightFlower]

Actually, souls do have certain needs. Souls still need water, even though most of them don't need food. Some souls do still need food to survive. They still need clothing and shelter, and we know they do sleep, although I'm not sure if they actually physically need it. There are still needs that need to be met the same way they are in life. A currency system is necessary.
Plus, it is not in human nature to want to suddenly drop everything and get along. Human nature makes us want to be better than someone else. It's the pack instinct. Nobody wants to be the omega of the group. Everybody has to have at least one person below them in some way. The souls in Soul Society aren't just suddenly going to get along because they are dead. Human nature is still human nature. That means that you need some sort of government or policing system to help deal with problems that may arise. The current system is flawed, but that doesn't mean that there should be no system whatsoever. The biggest problem is that the Shinigami are so focused on defending Soul Society, especially given the current situation, that they are forgetting to take care of their domestic affairs.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Oh I agree, Its just that in a place where 1. you live hundreds of times longer and 2. your not expected by society to become something thats productive than whats the point in not just attempting to become more powerful over hundreds of years or opposing the system etc etc...

I mean if I lived in SS after a couple hundred years of doing nothing but living in a slum I might actually try and rise against the Court but in SS theres non of that. Most of the time through history people can only live that poorly for so long before there's grave consequences. I mean with millions (if not billions) of souls in SS that live the way they do I think realisticly they would have done something drastic by now and would still be continuing to do it (freedom fighters or the like).

When you said they don't know how to change it and begrudgingly accept it, well, it would be like 5 million to 1 in favor of the normal souls. And obviously there's many souls out there that do have greater spiritual power, maybe not on the lines of the shinigami, but like when you see Renji and Rukia in the slums playing with energy and kidou. I'm sure if a rebellion happened on a mass scale (which probobly wouldn't take much) the inner court would fall and the people could implant there own power...

[ManjiSTP]

Oh dear... Another massive post! Well, this is my last before bed time, so I just wanted to get out everything I was thinking. Try and read it if you have the time. :)

That's true, but it's also true of real life. All around the world there are societies lead in directions they don't want to go in, by very few people. It's a fact that at the last US election only 25% of American's voted Republican, but because so few people voted that was enough for them to get in. Still, the other 75% seems to be happy to sit on their hands and either slightly moan about it or do nothing at all.

In China you have about 1.5 billion people almost totally controlled by a mere fraction of that amount. They could easily rebel but the idea is totally alien to them - not least because of the censoring of any rebellious material, even such things as an episode of something like Saved By The Bell where AC Slater "rebels" against Mr. Belding would be banned. :rolleyes: As a result the people just can't harbour the idea of rebelling or changing their own fates.

I have a friend who is Romanian. His country was ruled by communists for many years. Even things such as Pepsi was banned and his mom's house was actually raided by the police because her "friend" told them that she had something ridiculous like Coca Cola or American chocolate... In the end the people, pretty much all of them, rose up against the government. Even up until the end the whole event was covered by the worldwide press as an almost terrorist attack on the benign government.

As soon as the Romanian people had beat the communist government (eventually even the army joined with the people) they actually executed the dictator and his wife live on Romanian television. That was the level of hatred that they quite rightfully felt against him. Even then, it took years and years for them to rise up against them, and that's a rare case of the people actually standing up for themselves and winning.

The only reason almost any of the world's dictatorships have failed is because of outside interferece, letting the people know that there is another way - hence Romania's ban on all western produce, and China's massive censorship of everything including the internet, actually helped by such companies as Google - whether it be Nazi Germany or the Catholic Church's dominion of Europe, an outside idea or an outside force debased the whole thing and turned the usually stagnant world upside down.

To link back to Bleach, that's what I think will perhaps happen... The Arrancar, or maybe even the Vaizard, will be that outside force and that new idea. As the rule of Soul Society by Seireitei and the shinigami has gone pretty much uncontested for who knows how long, now that there are some new, powerful forces around, it's only a matter of time until everything starts to weaken and crumble.

As it stands, some of the most noble and well-meaning people are actually operating from outside SS at the moment - Kuukaku, Yoruichi, Isshin and Urahara - as well as Ichigo, Chad and Ishida (and all their friends) and of course, the Vaizards. Then you have visible signs of uprising within SS, like Ukitake and Shunsui, not to mention the traitorous actions of Aizen, Gin and Tousen. It's also noticable that most of the people who first turned up against Aizen were outsiders - Ichigo and co., Renji and Kuukaku. Then later, Yoruichi herself came with Soi Fong to put her blade to Aizen's throat. These outside forces are really showing up SS, and anyone who's paying attention from within SS will lose faith in their rigid masters.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Yes normally it does take an outside force to do such things but remember, theres a constant new supply of freethinking souls pouring into SS on a daily bases, its not like they've always been under constant rule, most weren't born there... If you just died and ended up in a slum in SS wouldn't you probobly ask some questions and eventually get fed up with how your treated? Many in SS were assumingly in the middle class in a past life, if you were doing alright in the human world and ended up there why wouldn't you try to start a revolution or at the least bring the issue up...

And besides comparing China to SS isn't really applicable, the amount of souls verse division members is staggering, plus the shinigami don't have ICBM's or tanks or jets etc... just single powerful souls that can get injured and can die, I still think that realisticly the people would have risen up by now, especially considering the odds.

But the shinigami are pretty intimidating :p

[Thelindra]

where will be a rise and fall to every thing, no matter how powerful it has once been.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Actually I just thought of something, wouldn't that just be the best thing Aizen could do? Just start a revolution of the people then while the shinigami are having to deal with millions of plus's he can have the Arrancar come in and mop up... talk about a rock and a hard place... maybe that would be to much for our 'heros' to handle though...

[TwilightFlower]

Which is why Aizen won't do that even though he should know that it's a pretty good plan.

Although the fact that the Bounto are trying to do that selfsame thing in the filler concerns me. I can see the idea of Soul Society's faults playing into the story somehow. I don't know that it will, but I could see how it would fit. If the Bounto use up that storyline now, then it's less likely to come up later. The whole issue is more likely to be skirted later so that it doesn't look like a repeat plot point.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

True, but we're already getting a repeat rescue plot :p

[ManjiSTP]

The thing is, though, that the Rukongai souls are ridiculously weak compared to the shinigami. Renji could swing Zabimaru and kill about 50 or 60 of them in one go! Imagine Komamura doing his bankai on them, or even Yama's shikai - bye bye everyone in a 2 mile radius!

Even though Rukongai has a fresh influx of souls all the time, they are broken up all over the place. Families and friends will never really meet. Also, the whole place looks the same and has offers no chance for personal expression or development. Therefore, pretty quicky, the new souls are assimilated into the never-changing way of life... I mean, think about it, these are people from all over the world, but they all happily live in Feudal Japanese buildings with a tech level to match. Just like any slum, it strips people's identity away to a large extent, and with all the problems it has, it forces them to look inwards and not at the bigger picture.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

I agree for the majority of sheep like people but still, do you really think that SS would rage war on the souls of Rukongai? Half the captains would probobly help the needy people and switch sides let alone I doubt ANY of them would release their Zanpaktos on them... Well, maybe Mayori or Zaraki but I can't really see any of the others just slaughtering thousands upon thousands of people. It would be one of those, "Well, guess we have to listen to them" kinda deals.

But I don't think it would really be that far of a stretch to figure that some of, if not many of the new souls coming into SS would at least attempt to do something about the current management/administration. And I don't think it's hard to believe that some of the Rukongai are pretty powerful themselves, really, how many personal fighters/warriors are out there that no one in the inner courts has ever seen.

[TwilightFlower]

If, however, the souls were used in conjunction with another form of attack, they might have a chance at success. It's a long shot and it would have to be very carefully calculated, but it could be done, with someone like Aizen leading the way.

[ManjiSTP]

Oh, the reason I mentioned that the shinigami would easily destroy the Rukongai people was in reponse to you saying that in other places like China the goverment have a martial control over the people, unlike in SS. I was just saying that the Rukongai souls must know that the SS would take them apart in an instant, if they so desired.

That's why this filler crap about recruiting them is so laughable. They join because the beard guy can regenerate wounds? Well they can't and if they meet any seated shinigami they're gonna get immolated!

[Hattori]

Yes normally it does take an outside force to do such things but remember, theres a constant new supply of freethinking souls pouring into SS on a daily bases, its not like they've always been under constant rule, most weren't born there... If you just died and ended up in a slum in SS wouldn't you probobly ask some questions and eventually get fed up with how your treated? Many in SS were assumingly in the middle class in a past life, if you were doing alright in the human world and ended up there why wouldn't you try to start a revolution or at the least bring the issue up...
And besides comparing China to SS isn't really applicable, the amount of souls verse division members is staggering, plus the shinigami don't have ICBM's or tanks or jets etc... just single powerful souls that can get injured and can die, I still think that realisticly the people would have risen up by now, especially considering the odds.
But the shinigami are pretty intimidating :p

Doesn't matter how many people there are. There's Senbonzakura Kageyoshi to keep them in line. And no Rukongai citizen could possibly hope to hurt a captain, or even a vice-captain. Byakuya alone could put down a rebellion of all 320 Rukongai districts by using his Bankai, and they wouldn't even be able to get close enough to scratch him

1. Because he's too damn fast.
2. Because Senbonzakura Kageyoshi will kill millions of them at a time faster than they can approach him.

It's the equivalent of medieval peasents going up against modern SWAT using automatic rifles and with full-body armor. The peasents won't be able to damage their overlords with their crappy armaments while the masters are capable of slaughtering them in massive quantities very rapidly.

Also, an upper class doesn't need a suffering class below it. It only needs a working class. That's the social structure of BNW - the Double Alphas indoctrinated everyone else to work productively without suffering, but in doing so, stripped them (in Huxley's viewpoint) of their "humanity."

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Now give all 320 districts bows.... lets see the petals to arrows ratio then. Bottom line billions vs 20+ isn't really a fight, sure millions of souls would die but they would overwhelm them.

Especially considering Ukitake/Shunsui would inevitably switch sides, plus Rukongai would most likely have Kuukaku/Urahara/Yoruichi and the main hero's on their side. I just see it like 1 man holding 20,000 people hostage for many years, sure he has a tommy gun but eventually those 20,000 are gonna go for it.

[ManjiSTP]

Yeah, we know that Ukitake and Shunsui would, but Rukongai doesn't. If they knew that there were people on the inside that would side with them, they may be driven to rebel.

Also, I doubt there's so much as one person in Rukongai that could even scratch Kenpachi... And as I said - Yama's shikai would just disintergrate any poor soul (hehe, literally!) that's remotely anywhere near him.

All that said, I do think that later on something along the lines of what your talking abouit may well happen. My feeling is that SS is being set up as a bit of an outdated place that's totally lost touch with things. Rukongai, for all it's problems, has been shown to be an honest place full of good people. Also, many of the shinigami will have strong memories of their time there, like Rukia, Renji and Kenpachi.

Oh, but by the way, aren't there only 80 districts in Rukongai? I thought that Zaraki (where Kenpachi came from and named himself after) was the worst district and the 80th one?

[Mashu-truth seeker]

There's 80 in each direction from what I understand... But anyway I'm here to say I would rebel at least, "better to rule in hell than serve in heaven" ya know, I'd rather die by the hands of some stuck up shinigami rather than have to live under them being persecuted everyday... Plus with as blind and ignorant as the inner court is about rukongai Kuukaku and the rest could easily train some souls up in a few years to help.

[ManjiSTP]

Ok, I'll help you storm the Whitehouse (or the political centre of wherever your from) if you help me storm Parliament! :D It'll be like the end of V For Vendetta, but only we won't die... I hope!

[Hattori]

Now give all 320 districts bows.... lets see the petals to arrows ratio then.

Irrelevant. None of the arrows has enough power to scratch a captain, so it makes no difference. Compared to a captain, a Rukongai soul is about as strong as a microbe - the human body is capable of fighting off billions of microbes with about a 1-2 day fever.


Bottom line billions vs 20+ isn't really a fight, sure millions of souls would die but they would overwhelm them.

Millions would die, but they wouldn't overwhelm them. You forget that no one in SS can damage a captain except another being of captain-level power. It'd be like trying to destroy the Great Wall of China with leaves.


Especially considering Ukitake/Shunsui would inevitably switch sides, plus Rukongai would most likely have Kuukaku/Urahara/Yoruichi and the main hero's on their side. I just see it like 1 man holding 20,000 people hostage for many years, sure he has a tommy gun but eventually those 20,000 are gonna go for it.

Ukitake has tubercolosis, and Shunsui's lazy. Besides, Yamamoto's stronger than both of them combined, and SS still has the vast majority of captains, vice-captains, and the Gotei 13. Also, SS has Mayuri. What do you think a group of peasents is going to do against a bio-engineered plague? How difficult would it be for a soul as twisted as Mayuri's to contaminate every water system within a hundred miles of Seireitei? Mayuri's Bankai alone is the equivalent of a biological weapon - and Yamamoto's Bankai is probably the SS equivalent of a nuclear strike. Ichigo can't beat Yamamoto.

Sure, Rukongai has Urahara, but Urahara wouldn't resort to the methods Mayuri would employ. Sure, Rukongai has Yourichi, but she's 100 years out of shape and wouldn't be able to compete against two or more captains. Sure, Rukongai has Ichigo, but Byakuya's strong enough to cripple Ichigo to the point where Ichigo can't fight any longer, and then any other captain could come along and finish him. Unohana would probably support Yamamoto, thus depriving Rukongai of healing. And Rukia would probably defect to SS - we've seen her brother's influence on her.

We don't know how powerful Kuukaku is, but I doubt she's stronger than most captains, which would put Yamamoto way above her. If his Shikai alone was enough to incinerate everything in a fifty-foot radius before he attacked, his Bankai would probably be strong enough to totally own Rukongai single-handedly.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

But once again, what would the captains really do, just annihilate all the souls in SS? no, they wouldn't, I mean Byakuya is arrogant but he's not a mass murderer. what a great re-election campaign also, "we destroyed everyone in SS because they didn't like our rule" :p

And yes Manji, we shall take our fight to the problems itself. Though I don't know about you but I'm kinda shy on tanks right now, but let me see what I can muster up :D

[ManjiSTP]

Oooh, what about if
Hollow Ichigo and the Vaizards helped?

Yeah, Mashu, I don't think that the shinigami would want to harm the people of Rukongai, but I think some sort of conflict will arise - probably involving who I just mentioned in the spoiler tags, as well as their opposites, if you know who I mean.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

(wink, wink) I gotcha, lol And ya, they would be a great help... I keep forgetting about em... Plus if Yoruichi helped rukongai that means most likely Soi fon will as well, Plus Komamura won't decimate millions and Unohano CERTAINLY won't so, that leaves Yamamoto/Kenpachi/Mayuri/Byakuya fighting everyone we mentioned plus billions of Plus's, I think the scales tip in our favor good sir, bwahaha.... The proletariat will succeed!!

[Cloud]

(wink, wink) I gotcha, lol And ya, they would be a great help... I keep forgetting about em... Plus if Yoruichi helped rukongai that means most likely Soi fon will as well, Plus Komamura won't decimate millions and Unohano CERTAINLY won't so, that leaves Yamamoto/Kenpachi/Mayuri/Byakuya fighting everyone we mentioned plus billions of Plus's, I think the scales tip in our favor good sir, bwahaha.... The proletariat will succeed!!

It doesnt really matter. Yamamoto pwns as stated by Hattori a few posts ago and Kenpachi would be untouchable by most people except for Ichigo and possibly Urahara if he decides to not be lazy. Byakuya can take out all of the Rukongai souls and Yamamoto, Kenpachi, and Mayuri would be able to take out the ones helping them. Especially if Kenpachi has finally figured out his Zanpaku-tos name. If that is the case then the battle would easily take out the Rukongais and the others. Hell Kenpachi could probably just take them all on on his own if he had his Shikai and/or Bankai(If he had Bankai then he could for sure. With shikai then most likely he could).

Altho who knows if they would be willing to kill all of those people. Byakuya could just injure all of the Rukongai souls by just taking out a leg or something.

[ManjiSTP]

Actually, I don't think Kenpachi would attack Rukongai either. He only likes attacking strong foes, remember. He'd probably relish the chance to attack Yama. Besides, he named himself after a place in Rukongai, so he must feel attached to it.

Mashu "If there is hope, it lies in the proles", right? ;)

[Mashu-truth seeker]

So your saying Kenpachi/Yama/Mayuri and Byakuya could handle...

Urahara/Shunsui/Ukitake/Komamura/Hitsugaya/SoiFon/Yoruichi/Kuukaku/Ganju/Ichigo/Ishida/Chad/Unohano/Orihime/Tessai/Jinta/Ururu and the Vaizards which are all prime candidates for helping Rukongai, thats not including the billions of plus's, some of which might be powerful in their own right...

You guys are giving WAY to much credit to a few captains in my opinion. Like I said the proletariat will be succesful, DOWN WITH BIG GOVERNMENT!!

hehehe, Manji, it does, the little man will win eventually... oh who am I kidding :p

[ManjiSTP]

This Bleach themed politics conversation is like some embarrasing attempt by a teacher to make politics appeal to the kids... :p

One thing I didn't consider before is, like you said Mashu, there's a very high chance of powerful inhabitants of Rukongai. As I've said, Kenpachi came from there and he went straight from there to killing a captain and becoming one himself.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Ya, I mean I've argued politics all my life but arguing about SS politics is an all time low :(

Oh well, I still think my group would totally overwhelm yours Hattori, lol (Like how I'm calling it "my" group and "his" group :D)

[Cloud]

You are assuming that all of those captains that switched to "your" side would actually switch to your side. And while they may be kindhearted and want to help rukongai they cant just sacrifice the current standing of SS because then the hollows would eventually take over SS and then take over the actual world. Certain people such as Hitsugaya would figure that out and stay on "Hattoris" side. Plus if Urahara had really wanted to take down SS he owuld have just gotten a group together before to do it. Its not like he knew that Ichigo would show up and be a help for him. Urahara would do something if he thought that the issue was great enough. Plus as stated Shunsui is lazy and Ukitake has TB so they wouldnt fight and if they did then they would fight for Yama because he is like a father to them as far as i can tell. there go most of your people and the ones on "Hattoris" side could take out "your" side even if it would take some effort but sadly "Hattoris" side would win.

[ManjiSTP]

So you're saying that Shunsui would allow the slaughter of innocents because he's lazy? :o

And Ukitake's TB would stop him from fighting? Well both of them were still about to try and take down Yamamoto, even with these traits you've highlighted.

I don't think that any of the decent shinigami would think of it as you suggest. The fact is, if they could kill Yama and any other of the "evil" shinigami, then they could take their place as defenders of SS. Anyway, what's the point of sticking with SS and keeping out the hollows, if your own people are acting like hollows and killing normal innocent souls?

[Cloud]

If your own people are killing innocent souls then all that Rukongai needs is some type of government. not a mass rebellion. Of course Sereitei should help them set up these governments tho so that the basic groundwork can be laid and then from then on they can rule themselves and end the senseless killings in their own parts.

As for Shunsui watching "the slaughter of innocents", they aren't soinnocent if they are attacking Sereitei. While Sereitei has basically ignored them there is a reason for that. Its because Rukongai sohuld rule itself IMO.

[ManjiSTP]

Yes they are! If you stand up for your rights you're not guilty of anything. It's not as if we're talking about a Rukongai citizen cutting a shinigami's throat for some spare change or something... And even then that would be a messy kind of poetic justice, anyway. So ok, it's not as if we're talking about a Rukongai citizen raping a shingami or something unforgivable and irrelevant to their plight.

[Cloudarc]

yeah i agree the only thing its missing is police to help regulate the crime and such happening in the districts but overall it dosent seem like a bad place to be

[Hattori]

Again, we don't need to factor Rukongai citizens into this. Mayuri could kill them all with a supervirus if he wanted to.

Secondly, no army fights until it possesses no more members. Losing 10% of your forces is enough to constitute a major defeat in modern warfare. Massacres above 30% are almost unheard-of in large-scale encounters. If Byakuya put down even a single section of Rukongai, the rest would be too scared to rebel for a good thousand years.

Yamamoto alone is powerful enough to deal with any single hero the "proletariot" possesses. Mayuri's Bankai can kill anyone who breathes so long as they don't possess the antidote, and considering it takes about fifteen minutes to take effect, even Urahara wouldn't be able to find a cure before the Vaizards started to die. Also, if SS rebelled, Aizen and his allies would most certainly attempt to exploit the weakness, so really, Aizen wins, but Ichigo/Chad/Ishida/Vaizards would be too busy fighting Aizen to pay attention to tyrants in SS (hence the situation now). Afterwards, none of them would be strong enough to face any of the captains, let alone Yamamoto, Byakuya in Senkei form, or Kenpachi.

[Mashu-truth seeker]

Well, it looks as though we're going to see a little of what we've been talking about from the looks of ep 97... And they explained exactly what we have been, and even stated that with the souls of Rukongai fighting it would put a major hinderance on the fighting abilities of the shinigami since non of them will whole sale slaughter the normal plus's. The later points I was trying to get across are just that, so we'll just have to wait and see how this "army" will effect the captain's fight with the bounto since they've already taken out the gate guards and are entering seireitei en-mass...

[EsDawg]

If people think about it Soul Society has caused alot of unhappiness. While the Bount seem to be an anomally from the anime fillers they raise an interesting question as to who the real bad guy is.

Aizen and crew betrayed Soul Society and are brewing their own army in Heuco Mundo. Tousen foremost among them makes you wonder what their real goals are. He may be deluded right now but his intentions seem pure compared to others.

The Quincy ('s, what's left of them) are pissed off at Soul Society for wiping them out. Ignoring their later pleas for cooperation. Then involuntarily being used as guinea pigs for Mayuri's lab experiments.

Vaizard's have been rogue for a while. They used forbidden techniques to get their hollows. But still they have some definite bitterness towards Soul Society and unknown motives.

Then you have Urahara, Isshin and crew. They don't seem to hate Soul Society or want to destroy it (that we yet know of). But still they're all outcasts eeking out an odd life in the world of the living.

IDK about you but it seems like Soul Society's kinda asking for the trouble.

[Pyramus]

Thats true, SS is puting itself in a tight spot! Bludy hell! I just realised! I could run SS better then those jerks at the 46 and stuff. We all could! We could sought a load of things out!!!

[CurlyQ1989]

Soul Society is supposed to be screwed up... it just adds to the plot ^__^