9/11 conspiracy theory. Discuss Prove/Disprove

[Tokoyami]

I understand this is still a sensative issue to many. It was a tragic and traumatic event and affected the lives of everyone. But it is still an issue. If you find that your cant debate on this subject, or that ure uncomfortable with it. Dont post here.

Many of us have heard of the 9/11 conspiracy ideas. Some have watched videos. Ive watched one and i have questions, im watchin another tonight. I did not loose anyone in 9/11, but still, in 6th grade, when the towers fell i could do nothin but hold back the urge to cry. Im a man, but im sensetive still. But while holding back the tears, my mind raced. Being around my dad and grandma, ive grown to be someone who analyzes what I see. My parents are engineers, so i guess its in me to analyze. To me, it didnt add up

The screen in class showed the towers smoking. Then finally they collapsed. I shuddered, but my mind raced. "why had the towers fallen when they were struck at the top?" I concluded that from the fire, the inside of the upper floors collapsed, falling thru to the bottom floors, causing a collapse. But i was young, and didnt kno what i kno now. Later i saw images of the pentagon after being struck. I was told an airliner hit it, like the towers, hijackers, attacking america. But again, my mind raced. "wheres the plane?" i looked and looked, but i saw nothing but a burnt side of a building, some parts still slightly burning. "wheres the plane?" My eyes squinted lookin for it. But i dismissed it as the thought of goin over my friends crossed my mind.

Every once in a while, i'd think about it, how it didnt add up. But never thinkin much of it. Till recently, my friend justin brought to my attention a video about it being a cover up. It presented to me the idea that 9/11, the event that killed so many, that struck the hearts of everyone in the nation, was actually staged by some of the people running the country. It showed evidence that the WTC was a demolition. It showed that it couldnt have been a Airliner that hit the pentagon. It showed how the majority of our airforce happened to be called off to practice drills far off away. It showed mysterious stock transactions, ones that if the world trade center and ofther stocks went down suddenly around 9/11, would give people a profit, put options. Sound clips, cell phone calls from an airplane, something that was not possible ((look it up)) in 2001, much much more. etc etc

I couldnt sleep that night, my mind was again racing. The video i had shown, it asked the same questions i asked 5 years ago. It presented evidence to support and answer those questions. I went to bed at 10 and didnt get to sleep till 2. Was it possible? the government staged this to manipulate peoplse emotions? or maybe its some other thing.

I didnt kno what to think, all i knew now was, i need some answers. I need to reasearch, look at photos and videos of that day. I need to know, why did alot of the evidence in the conspiracy video make sense, match what i had seen and what i sub conciously let slip by?

Was it all planned? or known about? WTF happened?

Heres the debate. What do you think about these 9/11 conspiracy theories? Do you beleive these ideas? do u beleive its evidence? Can u prove or disprove these ideas?

I watched these two videos. and am watching this third.

Before posting, please watch them as well, tell me what you think and what u beleive after watching them.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5946593973848835726&q=9%2F11+conspiracy
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3...de+center&hl=en
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1016720641536424083&q=The+Truth+about+9%2F11 (( in the progress of watching)).
What do you think? Cus something definately doesnt sit right with me at the moment.

[crash5s]

Well I was 1. in the military when it went down (military intel at that), 2. saw the plane hit the pentagon (and worked at the pentagon), 3. watched everything become a complete cluster **** as we tried to get approval to shoot down planes.

The conspiracy theories are about as true as "little green men live at area 51, the CIA shot JFK, Elvis was an alien, Tupac is alive".

The only “cover up” is how our government completely screwed up, failed to react to the evidence, and then failed to stop it. But the same issue is why hurricane Katrina screwed us.

But hell, as long as we keep the crazy people buying into the conspiracy theories, and not paying attention the real failures, that let’s our government get away with it. So bring it on.

[Wolfman Walt]

9/11 Conspiracy theories all fall apart when one thing is considered - all the people that would be needed to pull it off. We're talking about thousands of people. Sorry, just not possible. Next topic.

Being that we have someone who was actually there on the forum, I think we can pretty much safely say that there was no real conspiracy.

[Tokoyami]

Well I was 1. in the military when it went down (military intel at that), 2. saw the plane hit the pentagon (and worked at the pentagon), 3. watched everything become a complete cluster **** as we tried to get approval to shoot down planes.

The conspiracy theories are about as true as "little green men live at area 51, the CIA shot JFK, Elvis was an alien, Tupac is alive".

The only “cover up” is how our government completely screwed up, failed to react to the evidence, and then failed to stop it. But the same issue is why hurricane Katrina screwed us.

But hell, as long as we keep the crazy people buying into the conspiracy theories, and not paying attention the real failures, that let’s our government get away with it. So bring it on.
*sigh* would u at least watch the video before you dismiss it as insignificant....:o...u talk as if you kno everything it presents..

^eddited^

[Wolfman Walt]

Why? These videos are all the same, they cut up facts and cut out important things so you see what the director wants to see. No signs of aircraft litering the pentagon fair ground? Well duh, ofcourse they're not gonna let you see pictures of that, it would totally defeat their argument.
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/pentagon1b.jpg
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/pentagon1a.jpg
These are both pictures from the pentagon for reference. Notice the airline's logo there in the background in the first picture.
So once again, is this really neccesary?

[crash5s]

I did, it's all BS. A plane hit my office building, I saw it fly into it. I saw the people remove the parts of the plane after, and pull dead, and dieing people from it. I was in the Navy, the plane flew into the Navy wing of it. There are countless pictures of this going down, and military members pulling their friends dead bodies from the mess, while the fire department is removing the remains of hte plane.

As for the WTC, well steel weakens after a certain point. This isn't the voodoo physics that people try to push, it does weaken, it does cave. It's really simple, also buildings are made to implode rather then topple and take out part of the city.

Unlike you I was there, I was part of "big brother" at the time, it was my building that was hit. And I can say for certain, no military member would have kept shut while thousands of Americans, and dozens of bothers in arms (which despite what you think makes us closer then blood relatives we depend on each other for our lives) were slaughtered, by the very nation we swore to protect.

[Tokoyami]

Why? These videos are all the same, they cut up facts and cut out important things so you see what the director wants to see. No signs of aircraft litering the pentagon fair ground? Well duh, ofcourse they're not gonna let you see pictures of that, it would totally defeat their argument.
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/pentagon1b.jpg
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/pentagon1a.jpg
These are both pictures from the pentagon for reference. Notice the airline's logo there in the background in the first picture.
So once again, is this really neccesary? The video didnt need to let you see it. It told you about it. It also encourages you at the end to do your own research about what was discussed or what you wana know.

EDIT: for the record, most of the "conspiracy" videos and theories talk about how the government let the attacks happen somewhat, not that they directly caused thm.

I did, it's all BS. A plane hit my office building, I saw it fly into it. I saw the people remove the parts of the plane after, and pull dead, and dieing people from it. I was in the Navy, the plane flew into the Navy wing of it. There are countless pictures of this going down, and military members pulling their friends dead bodies from the mess, while the fire department is removing the remains of hte plane.

As for the WTC, well steel weakens after a certain point. This isn't the voodoo physics that people try to push, it does weaken, it does cave. It's really simple, also buildings are made to implode rather then topple and take out part of the city.

Unlike you I was there, I was part of "big brother" at the time, it was my building that was hit. And I can say for certain, no military member would have kept shut while thousands of Americans, and dozens of bothers in arms (which despite what you think makes us closer then blood relatives we depend on each other for our lives) were slaughtered, by the very nation we swore to protect.
cool thanks, thats somethin i wanted to hear.

Anyone else have a say about this? 21 minutes throughhttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5946593973848835726&q=The+Truth+about+9%2F11

[Panzergraf]

*sigh*

I've seen the videos before.
Older than time itself, and so forth.

I'm going to sum up everything with this one link:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

[crash5s]

The video didnt need to let you see it. It told you about it. It also encourages you at the end to do your own research about what was discussed or what you wana know.

The video is a biassed crock of lies. I was there, it flew into the wing of my service.

*sigh*, i guess i cant get anyone who watched these video's opinion here either...

I watched them, and have seen them before. I'll do you one better, I was there when it hit. I was also on military coms after it while we tried to sort it out.

EDIT: for the record, most of the "conspiracy" videos and theories talk about how the government let the attacks happen somewhat, not that they directly caused thm.

BS. The military, CIA, FBI, NSA (which is by proxy military), and NRO (which is by proxy military), were not allowed to share information. If they had been, we would have known about it and stopped it. The problem is bearucratic BS that was out of anybodys control. This started in the era of Edgar H, that's decades ago.

We were inept, lazy, and unable to share information. As a result thousands of civilians lost their lives. And the strongest military in history was caught with it's pants down.

[Tokoyami]

*sigh*
I've seen the videos before.
Older than time itself, and so forth.
I'm going to sum up everything with this one link:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons
Ive already seen that. But thank you.

Anyone else?

EDIT: for the record, most of the "conspiracy" videos and theories talk about how the government let the attacks happen somewhat, not that they directly caused thm.

yea, sry i should have said, most of the ones ive seen.

[Lunatic]

wow, really interesting (watches movie)...I wish though that someone would take one of these movies and release a full documentary with actual citing sources of where all these docuemnt closeups and everything were from...it would definetly increase its credibility... very interesting, i dont kno wat to believe, i was in school when this happened and we could see the smoke from the outside window and i live out in long island thats like 45 min drive.

[Tokoyami]

wow, really interesting (watches movie)...I wish though that someone would take one of these movies and release a full documentary with actual citing sources of where all these docuemnt closeups and everything were from...it would definetly increase its credibility... very interesting, i dont kno wat to believe, i was in school when this happened and we could see the smoke from the outside window and i live out in long island thats like 45 min drive.
Only source ive come to rely on is this.

http://cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

cus it says something, and shows you the article where it came from.

[crash5s]

wow, really interesting (watches movie)...I wish though that someone would take one of these movies and release a full documentary with actual citing sources of where all these docuemnt closeups and everything were from...it would definetly increase its credibility... very interesting, i dont kno wat to believe, i was in school when this happened and we could see the smoke from the outside window and i live out in long island thats like 45 min drive.

It is what the government says, and I'm NO fan of our government, and hate Bush.

On 9/11 people flew planes into buildings because of our abuse of other nations, and our beliefs. That's that.

We didn't catch it because our military and intel agents were not allowed to share critical information because that would equate to letting the millitary (and by proxy the nsa and nro) spy on Americans, which is against our constitution. So we were caught with our pants down in the most spectacular failure of our armed forces, and government intel in history since Pearl Harbor.

Thousands died a death we could have prevented, but laws and bad leaders screwed that up.

A plane flew into my office, at that into the wing of my service. People died. At that I've lost people I served with in other nations, in combat at that, in a pointless war since. All in the name of terrorism for a war I don't support. People I depended on for my life, people I would risk my life for.

It's not anything more then that.

EDIT-

The exact details on what went down, how we failed, are above TS, due to the nature of if we give that out, we give out how we can be hit. So it won't be public for another couple decades... just like how we kept our failures in WW2 secret.

[Tokoyami]

It is what the government says, and I'm NO fan of our government, and hate Bush.

On 9/11 people flew planes into buildings because of our abuse of other nations, and our beliefs. That's that.

We didn't catch it because our military and intel agents were not allowed to share critical information because that would equate to letting the millitary (and by proxy the nsa and nro) spy on Americans, which is against our constitution. So we were caught with our pants down in the most spectacular failure of our armed forces, and government intel in history since Pearl Harbor.

Thousands died a death we could have prevented, but laws and bad leaders screwed that up.

A plane flew into my office, at that into the wing of my service. People died. At that I've lost people I served with in other nations, in combat at that, in a pointless war since. All in the name of terrorism for a war I don't support. People I depended on for my life, people I would risk my life for.

It's not anything more then that.

EDIT-

The exact details on what went down, how we failed, are above TS, due to the nature of if we give that out, we give out how we can be hit. So it won't be public for another couple decades... just like how we kept our failures in WW2 secret.
Thanks, i didnt know some of that. Only one question, whats TS?

[crash5s]

Thanks, i didnt know some of that. Only one question, whats TS?

Top Secret

The only levels of security know to the public are this

Confidential, Secret, Top Secret, Crypto, TS/SCI, ATOMAL, Q

[athenaofstarlite]

The towers collapsed even though they were struck at the top because the fires went down inside and melted the structural supports.

Everything else you said is fair game. We may never know what really happened. But we do know that the US armed future Al Queda members in the 80s and had ties with them. Anything is possible.

[Tokoyami]

LOLS ALL THE QUOTES ARE BELOUNG TO US

Hope this doesnt turn into comebacks and flames.

Yes, in the Loose change video it did explain that theyre was no large wreckage found at the pentagon. And that they were small enough to be carried by hand.

with that, i wanna present this website, that goes thru how a boeing did hit the pentagon, and that all the evidence fits.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html

[Wolfman Walt]

Edit: So now we're trying to censor me and Tokoyami to make you look good, Itsovernow? As originally said, you're a mod. You should take the community's well being over that of your own personal interest. If you have rules, they need to apply to everyone, not just the people you choose. If you cannot do your job, I suggest you recuse yourself from your position for being an ineffective mod.

*YOUR QUOTE DIED BECAUSE IT WASNT PRETTY ENOUGH LOLZ*

I didn't bother watching the movie AGAIN because they almost all say the same things between editions. I'm sorry that I don't have an hour and a half to waste watching Loose Change AGAIN just because someone exposed a major flaw in their devious plan, but I have more important things to do, like watch paint dry.

If YOU watched the video, instead of spending your time trying to correct me, it said "There was no evidence of a plane crashing here" and tries to imply that there was no crash of an airplane. The only time it said what you said was when he was quoting another person, that however was not the video's point. The video's point was that there was no virtually no reckage and infact there was. There was ALOT of wreckage. Yes they did (eventually) show the photos I showed, but what they didn't do was tell you that those are each different pieces from the plane or the fact that there are multiple pieces with the airlines insignia on it, but this was only after they made the point that there was almost no wreckage. It's Loose change trying to manipulate the facts to fit their argument.

In addition, how close was that guy who Loose change was quoting? Why did he say "No evidence of it crashing near the pentagon" when it crashed right INTO the pentagon? The video relies on a quote from some CNN reporter who was standing atleast 20 or 30 feet away from the incident and it's only ONE reporter. That's just not reliable in my eyes. If the video included something along the lines of a report from the wreckage workers, it might have been abit more believable, but this is just the report of an untrained observer who even got the incident wrong.

Then the video tries to say what the official explanation is (That the jet fuel vaporized the plane) which ISN'T the official explanation. If you watch defense videos of jets crashing into concrete walls at 500 miles per hour to test the effects of a jet crashing into the walls of a nuclear power plant, they jet almost disintigrates, which suprise suprise, happened here, which EXPLAINS why there's no large debri.

I also like how no one bothers to mention that almost all of Loose Change's source "American Free Press" is owned and operated by a Neo-Nazi Halocaust Denier who thinks that 9/11 was a plot conducted by Jews, cause you know, Jews have been behind everything evil for the past century or two.

So here's an idea, before you go and try to tell me how to argue or what to argue or that I haven't watched a video that's full of so much retard it isn't funny, turn off your computer, go into your playroom, and go bother someone else.

Edit: Also, if you're gonna edit my message, atleast don't screw up the way my message is layed out by globbing it all together in one giant mass.

[Ollson]

I'm not sure what i believe.
I understand how they could have collapsed.
Steel melts at around 1300C (if i'm not mistaken) but at 800C, they'll probably loose alot of their strength and would probably start to bend.
But what i don't understand is why did Bush just sit quietly for 9 minutes and read after he heard about the attack.
And why didn't they reveal all the evidence right away.
Why did they wait as long as 5 years to release some of the evidence.
That doesn't make any sense to me.
Why keep something this big from the public if you have nothing to hide?

[dragoneyes001]

Having spent a good portion of my life building structures of all kinds including high rises the conspiracy theory that discounts the collapse of the two towers is flawed for the most basic reasons.

1) the buildings were hit by planes that entered in turns spreading the damage over a few floors at the same time the entrance of the planes would scrape a large quantity of fire protection from the steel structure.

2) in each building all the engines stayed within the buildings: this means that each multiton engine bashed around inside taking every pillar out till they finally lost momentum and a pillar stopped them.this weakened the building most.(a five ton engine moving at over 500miles/hr will take a few posts out before losing enough momentum to stop)

3)they get the reason for the center collapse completely wrong take a look at the twin towers each had the heavy outer shell that held the glass in place these worked as ribs holding the outer structure up longer than the inner floors the building was going to collapse from the inside first no matter what made the floors start to fall.

4) they try and say there were charges placed ahead of the collapse: Not so! the flashes your seeing are electrical bursts as the wires inside the building get shredded because of the collapse and massive shorts cause the flashes. the windows puffing out is also because of the collapse the amount of compressed air preceding the collapse blows out the windows whichever one is weakest will pop out first having popped a window out of a 10th floor apt because of playing the music too loud Ive watched this effect first hand the speakers did the exact same thing by moving the air in a sealed apt too abruptly for the window to hold increase this by a thousand and you'll see the window explode outward.

5) in one video they try to show a missile shot just before the entrance into the tower( by an airliner lol) they stop framed the action and blew it up to some ridiculous zoom to prove this yet if they knew anything about video they would know that it is a bunch of angled frames that overlap to make a smooth transition from frame to frame when stop framed you get ghosts from both the last and next frames which when coupled with extreme zoom will distort into flash like effects on the viewed frame maybe the author should take a bit of photography/filming in school it would help him not look uninformed.

[Thisisntfreedom]

Well! Facts are facts! You can't debate facts!

The towers were hit by airplanes. Not missiles. The towers collapsed due to steel's durability...

This forum is becoming a censored area. Mainly, the only people being censored are people with fact-based arguments, usually right-winged.

You can warn people, you can ban people...but you can't run from the truth! Facts are facts, don't get upset because you disagree with them...

We all have the authority to question censorship! This is a debate forum! NOT A KINDERGARDEN!

[dragoneyes001]

Well! Facts are facts! You can't debate facts!

The towers were hit by airplanes. Not missiles. The towers collapsed due to steel's durability...

This forum is becoming a censored area. Mainly, the only people being censored are people with fact-based arguments, usually right-winged.

You can warn people, you can ban people...but you can't run from the truth! Facts are facts, don't get upset because you disagree with them...

We all have the authority to question censorship! This is a debate forum! NOT A KINDERGARDEN!

actually Nihsnek you got banned for repeatedly insulting remarks directed at people as opposed to disagreeing with their points and aiming your remarks at the points.

it really doesn't matter what side your on since you obviously think I'm left wing due to my opposing beliefs on many subjects yet I've been asked to avoid any questionable comments as well.

they don't want a free for all of insults in the debates section regardless of your stance on a subject.

[Nihsnek]

actually Nihsnek you got banned for repeatedly insulting remarks directed at people as opposed to disagreeing with their points and aiming your remarks at the points.
it really doesn't matter what side your on since you obviously think I'm left wing due to my opposing beliefs on many subjects yet I've been asked to avoid any questionable comments as well.
they don't want a free for all of insults in the debates section regardless of your stance on a subject.

Hey dragon,

Well, first of all, that wasn't me. That was my RL friend.

Also, if you notice, if I ever throw an insult, it's not a directed at someone, it's directed at the idea.

I don't think Thisisntfreedom wants a "free for all of insults", he wants no idea censorship.

Back on to the topic:

I still don't see how people can debate facts!?! That's what happened, so that's the bottom-line. You can make guesses , and randomized opinions, but that doesn't change what happened.

[dragoneyes001]

Hey dragon,

Well, first of all, that wasn't me. That was my RL friend.

Also, if you notice, if I ever throw an insult, it's not a directed at someone, it's directed at the idea.

I don't think Thisisntfreedom wants a "free for all of insults", he wants no idea censorship.

Back on to the topic:

I still don't see how people can debate facts!?! That's what happened, so that's the bottom-line. You can make guesses , and randomized opinions, but that doesn't change what happened.

well its possible yet unlikely two people talk and punctuate the same and happen to switch being online within seconds of each other.

but who care's.

the buildings followed every law of physics when they colapsed regardless of how the video makers think it should have happened.

they obviously don't know how materials and failures in structure work if they can not see that the buildings did exactly what they are supposed to do under the circumstances that occured.

[Panzergraf]

Dragoneyes has experience building skyscrapers, and it seems like he knows what he's talkning about.
And Chrashe5 WAS AT THE FREAKING PENTAGON WHEN IT HAPPENED!
So for gods sake listen to them instead of eating everything some random kid feeds you through his biased, shitty video!
And also listen to Wolfman Walt, at least he's well informed.
Being an experienced moderator/admin at several forums myself, I know you should NEVER EVER try to censor ideas or opinions.
You can and should censor personal attacks and insults, but not ideas.
Besides "Censorship will only strengthen the power of an idea."
When will you people learn that you don't argue with the decisions of the moderation? EVER? NOBODY has the right to question ANY decisions of those above them. Clear?
Wow, that's just extreme.

Steel loses half its strength at 600-something degrees C.
So jet fuel burning at 800 would indeed weaken the structure, as someone mentioned.
Not that this last part is a real attempt at disproving those theories, it's merely trying to keep this post on-topic.

To quote Thisisntfreedom:
"Well! Facts are facts! You can't debate facts!"

[Lunatic]

(admins/mods=plz do not censor any msgs relating to opinion, i have cleaned it all out of garbage said by both sides)

The discussion can continue...

What do you guys think of Flight 93 and what the movie had to say about that...it was kinda strange i mean, i dunno how many of u have seen the new movie that just came out...Flight 93... lol evne though i havent seen it my friend told me about it...the documentary movie says all the phone calls and all that stuff was fake...i dunno wat to believe anymore lol....(this is soooo gonna be brought up in A.P. US. class)

[Panzergraf]

Haha:Haha

As I just said to WW before you posted that:
"[03:41] Dr. Panzergraf: and while i typed that, the thread suddenly went back to being 2 pages again
[03:42] Dr. Panzergraf: the irony is that these guys are the ones accusing the US govt of hiding facts and silencing the truth"

I almost feel like making a short film about "The 9/11 thread on Club Bleach", complete with spooky music and far-fetched theories and then post it on the net.

[hasuke]

(admins/mods=plz do not censor any msgs relating to opinion, i have cleaned it all out of garbage said by both sides)

The discussion can continue...

What do you guys think of Flight 93 and what the movie had to say about that...it was kinda strange i mean, i dunno how many of u have seen the new movie that just came out...Flight 93... lol evne though i havent seen it my friend told me about it...the movie says all the phone calls and all that stuff was fake...i dunno wat to believe anymore lol....(this is soooo gonna be brought up in A.P. US. class)


personally, I feel you should beleive FACTs, and say **** off to conspiracy theorists, movies, and books. Keep in mind movies are made overly dramatic, and conspiracy theorists are retards (seen the maddox post about 9/11 conspiracies? Namely the fact that if america set this up, they would have no problem killing a few more people who have the possibility of spilling the truth. After all America is a nation of brutal war mongering MONSTERS hurhur.)

EDIT: Kind of like this: WE HAD NO PROBLEM KILLING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. HOWEVER IT IS UNETHICAL TO KILL FIVE OR TEN CONSPIRACY THEORISTS WHO COULD REVEAL OUR PLANS. OH ME OH MY WHAT EVER SHALL WE DO? THE TRUTH IS OUT AND WE ARE FUCKED.

[Lunatic]

After all AMERIKKKA IS A VIOLENT NATION OF BRUTAL MONSTERS.)

if you mean that, then why wouldn't the conspiracy theory be somewhat valid in its points...i mean after whats happened in the past 5 years and how my life personally has changed and what Bush has done...all the power hes gained using 9/11 as an excuse i mean...it could all be true..

[Wolfman Walt]

And he'd risk losing all that power to three kids with a mac? Get real, those guys would have been dead before that movie was ever loaded on the internet and we'd be discussing cheese curds processing ethics.

[hasuke]

I'll admit milking 9/11 is pretty lame. But it being a set up is pretty fucking farfetched. Hey, I guess the Japanese were payed off by the americans to do Pearl Harbor, eh?

Hell, the Nazis were actually a pro-jewish organization, until America payed them off to hate Jews and start another war! (of course, Jews start ALL the wars, thanks mr gibson!)

/sarcasm

As such, I take conspiracy theories like heaps of steaming shit. Which is basically all they are, except it's widely known that shit is in fact real, where as all of this conspiracy crap isn't.

[dragoneyes001]

OK you want to go by a: "it was set up by the republicans" theory?

lets work on just how that could have been played out.

the amount of time to create and execute the plan would be approx from the time of the last republican government.

at the time the US was friendly with Bin Laden certain members in the hierarchy of the republicans(the string pullers) hatch a plan to cement republican values onto the US because they see the US as becoming too liberal and downright decadent and weak.

so how to force the nation to willingly dump their rights and jump into a much more strict rule?

it would take a major threat directed at the US directly preferably in the US.

what kind of threat could they create that would cement public opinion in their favor and not be easily solved by simple might of arms?

terrorists!

OK now they have the idea and a general subject they want to get going.
so how to get terrorists to hit the US?
there is one well established group is in Afghanistan we already know the leader so we could probably make inroads to convincing him that there are openings in the US his group could hit but we need to give him a bit of incentive to get started thinking of hitting the US.

they send CIA agent to convince Bin Laden that the US is going to be a pain in the Middle east vs his wishes and they also mention they will be ousting the Taliban from Afghanistan about a year before 9/11.
in the mean time another agent undercover proposes a few possible plans to attack the US. in passing mentions using planes to crash into targets in the US. Bin Laden bites the bait.

now the timing was all set up so the current president Clinton was constantly harassed with controversy and under one form or other legal process to keep him too busy to be looking internationally and the contacts with the terrorists was timed to be in his second term so there would be a change of government prior to any attack. the republicans put forth GWB for president. this is because of his fathers record although not perfect it'll help get votes they need for the plan they invest heavily in getting him elected.

problems occur and the vote is too close they pull strings and play a game with votes in Florida.

(so far very few people are involved with the overall plan and many only know the part they happen to be part of which taken as a single subject has no likelihood of raising eyebrows)

the intelligence agencies start getting word of a plan to hit the US using planes (fortunately most of the security offices are run by conservatives)
after a few phone calls most of the leaders dismiss the warnings as unlikely or unbased the rift between agencies keeps them from comparing notes.

one well placed advisor keeps an eye open in case the administration gets too many warnings.(this person does know the plan).

so the president does not need to have any idea whats going to occur nor would ninety nine point nine percent of the administration directly around him either only a number of well placed republicans with pull enough to hear from several security sections or even be part of the top of one or two of them.plus several other people like the undercover agent and his contact but the total number of people who would know enough of the plan to know it was going to be an attack against the US would have been very small and its easy to lose the agents just blow their cover and they would be corpses.

now the attack occurs and history shows how well fear makes the voting public jump on the bandwagon of adding more and more amendments to the constitution and how laws can be added that make the government allowed to do as it wants.

now before anyone gets all serious about this its simply a speculation not to be taken seriously.

[Delta]

OK you want to go by a: "it was set up by the republicans" theory?

lets work on just how that could have been played out.

the amount of time to create and execute the plan would be approx from the time of the last republican government.

at the time the US was friendly with Bin Laden certain members in the hierarchy of the republicans(the string pullers) hatch a plan to cement republican values onto the US because they see the US as becoming too liberal and downright decadent and weak.

so how to force the nation to willingly dump their rights and jump into a much more strict rule?

it would take a major threat directed at the US directly preferably in the US.

what kind of threat could they create that would cement public opinion in their favor and not be easily solved by simple might of arms?

terrorists!

OK now they have the idea and a general subject they want to get going.
so how to get terrorists to hit the US?
there is one well established group is in Afghanistan we already know the leader so we could probably make inroads to convincing him that there are openings in the US his group could hit but we need to give him a bit of incentive to get started thinking of hitting the US.

they send CIA agent to convince Bin Laden that the US is going to be a pain in the Middle east vs his wishes and they also mention they will be ousting the Taliban from Afghanistan about a year before 9/11.
in the mean time another agent undercover proposes a few possible plans to attack the US. in passing mentions using planes to crash into targets in the US. Bin Laden bites the bait.

now the timing was all set up so the current president Clinton was constantly harassed with controversy and under one form or other legal process to keep him too busy to be looking internationally and the contacts with the terrorists was timed to be in his second term so there would be a change of government prior to any attack. the republicans put forth GWB for president. this is because of his fathers record although not perfect it'll help get votes they need for the plan they invest heavily in getting him elected.

problems occur and the vote is too close they pull strings and play a game with votes in Florida.

(so far very few people are involved with the overall plan and many only know the part they happen to be part of which taken as a single subject has no likelihood of raising eyebrows)

the intelligence agencies start getting word of a plan to hit the US using planes (fortunately most of the security offices are run by conservatives)
after a few phone calls most of the leaders dismiss the warnings as unlikely or unbased the rift between agencies keeps them from comparing notes.

one well placed advisor keeps an eye open in case the administration gets too many warnings.(this person does know the plan).

so the president does not need to have any idea whats going to occur nor would ninety nine point nine percent of the administration directly around him either only a number of well placed republicans with pull enough to hear from several security sections or even be part of the top of one or two of them.plus several other people like the undercover agent and his contact but the total number of people who would know enough of the plan to know it was going to be an attack against the US would have been very small and its easy to lose the agents just blow their cover and they would be corpses.

now the attack occurs and history shows how well fear makes the voting public jump on the bandwagon of adding more and more amendments to the constitution and how laws can be added that make the government allowed to do as it wants.

now before anyone gets all serious about this its simply a speculation not to be taken seriously.

Thats a fine bit of speculation, which is the point of everyone here, there isnt a scrap of evidence to suggest that anything like that happened, same thing with UFOs, a complete lack of verifiable physical evidence. The "controled demolition of the twin towers" theory has been shown to be flawed as has the pentagon being hit by a missle, we even have someone who was there, so while it's intereting to speculate thats all it really is.

[dragoneyes001]

Thats a fine bit of speculation, which is the point of everyone here, there isnt a scrap of evidence to suggest that anything like that happened, same thing with UFOs, a complete lack of verifiable physical evidence. The "controled demolition of the twin towers" theory has been shown to be flawed as has the pentagon being hit by a missle, we even have someone who was there, so while it's intereting to speculate thats all it really is.

exactly and to tell the truth i really don't give the powers that be enough credit to pull it off without an oliver north. lol they are too likely to get it wrong but then again if they did try to set it up they may have gotten it wrong and something far bigger than they expected happened.

[sakashii]

In my opinion, I think this was all planned. And I also think that the Media might have covered some stuff. Isn't it a bit weird how its still a big deal until now? And why did they just suddenly blame it all on Islams?
i do also reckon that its so detailed, and there are closeups that prove that there is something wrong.

[dragoneyes001]

In my opinion, I think this was all planned. And I also think that the Media might have covered some stuff. Isn't it a bit weird how its still a big deal until now? And why did they just suddenly blame it all on Islams?
i do also reckon that its so detailed, and there are closeups that prove that there is something wrong.


ok i'll re explain:

the close ups are flawed! they are from video not film so they have a few inherent issues that create the unusual stuff your shown in the video.

video uses //////// frames that look like this they overlap so the top of the last frame overlaps the curent frame which is over the next frame.

when you zoom in on video you go past the set dots per inch in which the video was made which distorts the frames the more you zoom. add to this they slow the frame rate and you will get a lot of very colorful errors on the screen it also creates a time distortion between still frames meaning theres some frames that will not show clearly do to the overlap yet the information between the clear frames exists its just not supposed to be interpreted out of time synch.

[Wolfman Walt]

If they killed all the conspiracy thoerists, it would only validate thier claims. Noob.

Hard to validate claims when their claims never get out, that's kind of the point. You don't let someone make a documentary about how the government planned 9/11 and then silence them, you silence them before they ever get off the ground and are able to openly talk about it.

Good job on flaming, care to call someone a "jew" again or something that every one will ignore and you'll just edit out to make yourself look good, or have we moved onto to different insults that don't involve religion?

[Vampyrelord]

Hard to validate claims when their claims never get out, that's kind of the point. You don't let someone make a documentary about how the government planned 9/11 and then silence them, you silence them before they ever get off the ground and are able to openly talk about it.

Good job on flaming, care to call someone a "jew" again or something that every one will ignore and you'll just edit out to make yourself look good, or have we moved onto to different insults that don't involve religion?

Actually he has a point in that it is easier to kill and individual than an ideal. Holocaust deniers have a much stronger case because it is illegal to deny the holocaust in some countries, which makes a conspiracy seem more likely. They should be allowed to say whatever they want because it just shows how stupid they really are.

By the way, I wouldn't pick a fight with Unholy if I were you, he happens to own the place...

[Wolfman Walt]

Actually he has a point in that it is easier to kill and individual than an ideal. Holocaust deniers have a much stronger case because it is illegal to deny the holocaust in some countries, which makes a conspiracy seem more likely. They should be allowed to say whatever they want because it just shows how stupid they really are.

And look at how succesful those folks are. Holocaust deniers are a VERY small minority (to my knowledge, which actually may be wrong being that I've never met a holocaust denier....ever....in my entire life), so while it may strengthen the idea in their community that it's real, it does nothing to strengthen the idea all around and convince other people. Ofcourse ANY perceived action against them would strengthen their ideal, these people are so paranoid delusional, that putting "Holocaust" in a text book strengthens their ideas because they feel so justified at that point to tell the truth.

And trust me - it's not that hard to kill off an ideal. Russia managed to accomplish it almost with ease. Trust me, if our government was half as evil as we think they are, Dylan Avery wouldn't be sitting high as he is now, instead the moment he discussed this idea with James Gandolfini he'd have been thrown in a cell in Gauntanimo bay and dissapear forever.


By the way, I wouldn't pick a fight with Unholy if I were you, he happens to own the place...
Thanks - but unlike some people in this community, I don't care if he's the owner. His behavior is ridiculous and defiant of the rules set by his own community. Ownership does not mean immunity. Rules should be followed by everyone or else they shouldn't be followed by anyone.

[Kazuma Shawn]

9/11 is a tragic event that everyone'll remember,regardless of time and place..Here's a few conspiracies that i found..

The Claim : Explosives brought down the Twin Towers.Critics of the official explanation point to such clues as the pattern and timing of the dust and debris blown out from the floors,the vertical fall of the towers and two seismic tremors that coincided with their collapse..

The Claim: Fighter jet within the range of the hijacked planes must have been under orders to stand down, since none from the 28 Air Force bases in the area was scrambled..

The Claim: WTC7 also contained explosives since fire alone has never felled a modern skycraper.Authorities have delayed releasing a WTC 7 report to hide the truth..

[chiking1]

I highly doubt it was a setup, for one, why would the government deliberately kill its citizens? I don't see much of a point. Also, if they really did set up the whole thing, what makes you think they won't kill the people spreading it too?
I've been getting a lot of email lately from people sending me this stupid 9/11 conspiracy video called "Loose Change." I've tried to ignore it for months now, but you morons keep forwarding it to me, and I keep having to add more email addresses to my spam filter. The ironic part is that I'm a huge conspiracy nut, and even I can't stomach this bullshit. For example, I believe that there is a small, reptile-like creature called Chupacabra that sucks the blood of goats in Mexico. Area 51? Hell yes. Roswell? Pass me the Kool-Aid. But "Loose Change" elevates bullshit to an artform. Watching this video is like being bukakked with stupid.

Unlike others who debunk 9/11 conspiracy theories, or "cons" for short, I'm not going to bother with going through intricate point-by-point rebuttals, or pointing out the hundreds of factual inaccuracies and outright lies in this "documentary," because I don't need to. In fact, I can debunk the entire story with one simple observation:

The fact that this man is alive...

...is proof that "Loose Change" is bullshit.

Here's why:

1. The man in the picture above is Dylan Avery. To be more precise, the fact that Dylan, his friends, and family are alive, is proof that "Loose Change" is bullshit. He, along with a couple of his friends, created a 9/11 conspiracy video claiming that the US government and the military caused 9/11. Take a closer look at the last part of that last sentence: he's claiming that the US government, for whatever ends, killed nearly 3,000 innocent Americans, and tens if not hundreds of thousands of more lives in the conflicts that ensued because of it.

2. Since Dylan's arguing that the government has no problem killing 3,000 innocent people, this raises the question: if his documentary is true, and we've established that the government has no ethical qualms about killing thousands of its own people, then why wouldn't the government kill Avery and his friends as well? What's a few more lives to them to ensure the success of this conspiracy?

Whatever reason it may be that the government supposedly orchestrated this conspiracy, it must have been worth it to them to cause so much suffering and loss of life. So if there's any truth to this, then you can bet your ass that the government wouldn't let a couple of pecker-neck chumps with a couple of Macs and too much time on their hands jeopardise their entire operation by letting this stupid video float around on the Internet. I can picture you morons emailing me now: "BUT MADOX, MAYBE DYLAN POSTED IT ON THE INTERNET BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT HAD A CHANCE TO REMOVE IT LOL." Yeah, too bad this rebuttal is inconsistent with the premise of Dylan's shit-festival of a movie: that the WTC was brought down "in a carefully planned and controlled demolition ... and it was pulled off with military precision." Now we're expected to believe that the same government that was able to commit the largest terrorist operation in history--with military precision no less--is suddenly too incompetent to sniff out and shut down a little website set up by some college losers within days, if not minutes of its creation? The US government has the capability to monitor every electronic communication made anywhere in the world, yet we're expected to believe that they wouldn't be able to nix this kid long before his video ever became popular?

I win. There is no conspiracy. Eat my shit, losers.
If you want the pictures, go to http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

[Kazuma Shawn]

Words are going around that the whole conspiracies was meant to be a reason for an attack on Afghanistan..Wars wars wars..When would it ever end..

[Tokoyami]

I highly doubt it was a setup, for one, why would the government deliberately kill its citizens? I don't see much of a point. Also, if they really did set up the whole thing, what makes you think they won't kill the people spreading it too?

If you want the pictures, go to http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons
So that site trys dismiss's Loose Change as a reliable source. Which....from the get go...if u watch it, it takes stuff out of context.

so about that other 20 some video conspiracy and/or 9/11 videos.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003&q=9%2F11+mysteries

Watch that and skip to 9min exactly.

If the North Tower burned for 3 hours and didnt collapse why did it collapse then and it did now? Maybe cus the plane hit it.

[Jack Van Burace]

I'll admit milking 9/11 is pretty lame. But it being a set up is pretty fucking farfetched. Hey, I guess the Japanese were payed off by the americans to do Pearl Harbor, eh?

Hell, the Nazis were actually a pro-jewish organization, until America payed them off to hate Jews and start another war! (of course, Jews start ALL the wars, thanks mr gibson!)

/sarcasm

As such, I take conspiracy theories like heaps of steaming shit. Which is basically all they are, except it's widely known that shit is in fact real, where as all of this conspiracy crap isn't.

Japan never did pearl harbor actually.

The US government knew that they were going to strike there and at that exact day, because of transmission interception. And it was going to be declared war also, but the guy holding the war declaration, to hand it to the US embassy, was put on a waiting room and made wait there for about 8 hours. So, even early to deliver it, the handing over of the letter was, after this misterious 8 hour waiting, too late, and the US used it up to call it a "backstab". One thing that proves this is the fact that none of the bigger carriers were docked that very day, and US called it luck. Only smaller carriers and foot soldiers (too many of them) were killed that day, and yes, it was on US gov's plans to sacrifice them in order to justify the nuking of Iroshima.

So I see no big problem in believing that the US did help the terrorists reach out their goals on 9/11, and were willing to sacrifice all those lives to justify their war acts.

[Delta]

Japan never did pearl harbor actually.

The US government knew that they were going to strike there and at that exact day, because of transmission interception. And it was going to be declared war also, but the guy holding the war declaration, to hand it to the US embassy, was put on a waiting room and made wait there for about 8 hours. So, even early to deliver it, the handing over of the letter was, after this misterious 8 hour waiting, too late, and the US used it up to call it a "backstab". One thing that proves this is the fact that none of the bigger carriers were docked that very day, and US called it luck. Only smaller carriers and foot soldiers (too many of them) were killed that day, and yes, it was on US gov's plans to sacrifice them in order to justify the nuking of Iroshima.

So I see no big problem in believing that the US did help the terrorists reach out their goals on 9/11, and were willing to sacrifice all those lives to justify their war acts.
Here's the problem w/ the idea that the US wanted to nuke hiroshima so they let pearl harbor happen: date of the 1st successful test of the atomic bomb, July 16, 1945. Date of Pearl harbor, 7 December 1941. So barring the existance of time travel I find it kind of hard to believe the us just wanted to nuke Japan for shits and giggles.

[Jack Van Burace]

date of the 1st successful test of the atomic bomb, July 16, 1945. Date of Pearl harbor, 7 December 1941.

Who exactly gave you these dates? I bet you also believe that the Wright brothers invented the plane, don't you?

[Delta]

Who exactly gave you these dates? I bet you also believe that the Wright brothers invented the plane, don't you?

Bomb date (source (http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa050300a.htm))

pearl Harbor date (source (http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/pearlhbr/pearlhbr.htm))

And w/ the plane, are talking about that guy in New Zealand who they think invented it a few months before the Wright Brothers?

[Jack Van Burace]

Bomb date (source (http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa050300a.htm))

pearl Harbor date (source (http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/pearlhbr/pearlhbr.htm))

And w/ the plane, are talking about that guy in New Zealand who they think invented it a few months before the Wright Brothers?

Nope, I'm talking about the real inventor, Alberto Santos Dumont, in Paris. No foreign expert has been able to put their hands on that lousy tape to verify it's date and authenticity, despite insistent offers. They say they made their slingshot plane before Santos Dumont's presenting of a plane in Paris, and they won't let anyone verify if it's true. And just for the record, that thing was not a plane for it couldn't take off on it's own. How amusing that they claim to have 'slingshot' their "plane" less than a week before Santos Dumont. Very easy to fake.

Now it was Sun Tzu who said you should never show your enemy your true strength. How many times has a person said "I'll do this in this amount of time", and actually did it without beeing ready before? No country who owns nukes will ever tell you the true amount, or how long do they have it. Of course the Navy will tell you their first successfull test was after Pearl Harbor. If they could allow such a disaster to happen, lieing about that date is easy.

[Delta]

Nope, I'm talking about the real inventor, Alberto Santos Dumont, in Paris. No foreign expert has been able to put their hands on that lousy tape to verify it's date and authenticity, despite insistent offers. They say they made their slingshot plane before Santos Dumont's presenting of a plane in Paris, and they won't let anyone verify if it's true. And just for the record, that thing was not a plane for it couldn't take off on it's own. How amusing that they claim to have 'slingshot' their "plane" less than a week before Santos Dumont. Very easy to fake.

Huh, never heard of that, mby i'll look into it sometime.

Now it was Sun Tzu who said you should never show your enemy your true strength. How many times has a person said "I'll do this in this amount of time", and actually did it without beeing ready before? No country who owns nukes will ever tell you the true amount, or how long do they have it. Of course the Navy will tell you their first successfull test was after Pearl Harbor. If they could allow such a disaster to happen, lieing about that date is easy.

A bit confused what you're trying to say here, are you saying they had the bomb before they said they did?

[Jack Van Burace]

Huh, never heard of that, mby i'll look into it sometime.

Of course you didn't. You're from US, aren't you? Right after Santos Dumont was shown on movie, flying and landing on an airplane, the Wright bros. came up with a tape claiming it to be from a week before, and that they were the real inventors. US press of that time rushed to claim them the true inventors, and to say it was an american invention. Who in your country would ever try to break the myth? Of course you learned diferently and of course noone in there will ever take interest in looking deeper in this matter.

A bit confused what you're trying to say here, are you saying they had the bomb before they said they did?

Yes! Following what I'm saying, there's no point in telling the true date of making that bomb: a) because it would rise the suspicion that the back-stabing wasn't really what they said (if they were making up a scheme, it couldn't have flaws); and b) it looks much more beatifull to say that they did it from the need to fight against a dire backtabing enemy, than just to win a war.

[Delta]

Yes! Following what I'm saying, there's no point in telling the true date of making that bomb: a) because it would rise the suspicion that the back-stabing wasn't really what they said (if they were making up a scheme, it couldn't have flaws); and b) it looks much more beatifull to say that they did it from the need to fight against a dire backtabing enemy, then just to win a war.

The problem w/ that is we didnt even know how separate the "enriched" uranium (U-235) from the uranium that is useless to making atomic bombs (U-238) until work started on creating the bomb. There are also tons of people that were there working on it and they talk about the R&D that went into making the A-bomb, if you have evidence to he contrary i'd love to see it.

[Jack Van Burace]

The problem w/ that is we didnt even know how separate the "enriched" uranium (U-235) from the uranium that is useless to making atomic bombs (U-238) until work started on creating the bomb. There are also tons of people that were there working on it and they talk about the R&D that went into making the A-bomb, if you have evidence to he contrary i'd love to see it.

What kind of evidence could there be of this? Only that R&D was never this fast, and is higly doubtfull that they went through with finding out about all this stuff in such short notice. Developing this kind of new technologies take years, and you cannot ignore the secret developing of these technologies that probably had been done. If it was so easy, every country these days would have their own nuke, it isn't a knowledge grown overnight.

[Delta]

What kind of evidence could there be of this? Only that R&D was never this fast, and is higly doubtfull that they went through with finding out about all this stuff in such short notice. Developing this kind of new technologies take years, and you cannot ignore the secret developing of these technologies that probably had been done. If it was so easy, every country these days would have their own nuke, it isn't a knowledge grown overnight.
You can find out how to make an atomic bomb on the internet, thats no problem, the problem is getting the materials for it. We did have a huge number of scientists given billions of dollars (worth even more back then) to work on this problem exclusively for years. People that studied the bombs afterward have said that the bombs could have been much more destructive, so it's not like they were built perfectly or well even.

[Jack Van Burace]

You can find out how to make an atomic bomb on the internet, thats no problem, the problem is getting the materials for it. We did have a huge number of scientists given billions of dollars (worth even more back then) to work on this problem exclusively for years. People that studied the bombs afterward have said that the bombs could have been much more destructive, so it's not like they were built perfectly or well even.
Anyways, my point is that there's no way to tell how long did they actually had a nuke ready, and that the testimonial of the japanese man who was sent to deliver the war declaration is such as he was made to wait in a room for 8 hours. I'm not saying that the japanese weren't attacking early, I'm saying they weren't going to attack from behind. And there's got to be an explanation to why the US ignored on purpose the japanese messager. To why the main carriers disappeared from Pearl Harbor on that exact day. Why else would they let this kind of attack to happen? Of course, there's no way we will ever find enough evidence that this was done like this, otherwise somone else would have found it already.

[Delta]

Anyways, my point is that there's no way to tell how long did they actually had a nuke ready, and that the testimonial of the japanese man who was sent to deliver the war declaration is such as he was made to wait in a room for 8 hours. I'm not saying that the japanese weren't attacking early, I'm saying they weren't going to attack from behind. And there's got to be an explanation to why the US ignored on purpose the japanese messager. To why the main carriers disappeared from Pearl Harbor on that exact day. Why else would they let this kind of attack to happen? Of course, there's no way we will ever find enough evidence that this was done like this, otherwise somone else would have found it already.

Well dude, there is such a thing as coincidence, and this is the debates section, if your going to make a statement like "the us let pearl harbor happen cuz the wanted to nuke japan", you cant expect for people not to want some evidence.

[Jack Van Burace]

Ok then, I refrain from that statement, since I cannot present any evidence of that, just like noone has evidence that CIA killed JFK, or that the tape the Wright bros. presented was fake. And speaking of him, I came to think of another possibility, which is that JFK wouldn't sign in for making an atomic bomb for nothing. Pearl Harbor made it an unquestionable decision. So they would only have made the bomb afterwards, but still, having allowed Pearl Harbor for that purpose. But I can't say that, since I have no evidence of it whatsoever ;-p

EDIT: By the way, CIA had been reactivated when Bush jr. took over again. Funny coincidence.

EDIT#2: Take away Pearl Harbor, a government that sends it's youth to war, that bombs a foreign country just to get oil, has no reason to not have allowed some terrorists to blow up the twin-towers if it suited their goals.

[Delta]

EDIT#2: Take away Pearl Harbor, a government that sends it's youth to war, that bombs a foreign country just to get oil, has no reason to not have allowed some terrorists to blow up the twin-towers if it suited their goals.

And a C-average former cheerleader isnt smart enough to think of it in the 1st place, let alone keep it under wraps.

[Jack Van Burace]

And a C-average former cheerleader isnt smart enough to think of it in the 1st place, let alone keep it under wraps.

Indeed, but his father is very close to the CIA. Even after he retired, he kept asking for the reports to be delivered in his own home. He is the reason why Bush jr. reopened CIA when it was almost finished.

[Delta]

Indeed, but his father is very close to the CIA. Even after he retired, he kept asking for the reports to be delivered in his own home. He is the reason why Bush jr. reopened CIA when it was almost finished.

So what? I still fail to see how that has anything to do w/ killing thousands of your own countrymen and no1 finding out about it. I really just dont think that anyone in this government is smart enough to pull it off scott-free. And seeing how there isnt any physical evidence to the contrary.....

[Jack Van Burace]

So what? I still fail to see how that has anything to do w/ killing thousands of your own countrymen and no1 finding out about it. I really just dont think that anyone in this government is smart enough to pull it off scott-free. And seeing how there isnt any physical evidence to the contrary.....
What sort of physical evidence could there be? You think thye would have recorded anything on tape? You think any of the ppl involved would ever go public? The only piece of evidence I can give you is that the White House knew that the terrorists were going to strike there, because they admited it, but said they didn't give it proper attention. Think about it for a second, and you will realize that the "evidence" you need is just a way to deny it.

[Delta]

What sort of physical evidence could there be? You think thye would have recorded anything on tape? You think any of the ppl involved would ever go public? The only piece of evidence I can give you is that the White House knew that the terrorists were going to strike there, because they admited it, but said they didn't give it proper attention. Think about it for a second, and you will realize that the "evidence" you need is just a way to deny it.

If they planned it, demolished the towers themselves and fired a missle into the pentagon they would require the services of waaay too many people to ensure that there wouldnt be a leak.

[Jack Van Burace]

I never said that they did it themselves. In fact, when I quoted Pearl Harbor SUPPOSED participation on US gov/military entities, I was talking about facilitation, making it easier for the terrorists, and not doing it themselves. It surely would take too many to make it work, but not taking an important information ahead, and softening the security in key spots surely would take few ppl, and it would be easy, if you were the person in charge.

[Delta]

I never said that they did it themselves. In fact, when I quoted Pearl Harbor SUPPOSED participation on US gov/military entities, I was talking about facilitation, making it easier for the terrorists, and not doing it themselves. It surely would take too many to make it work, but not taking an important information ahead, and softening the security in key spots surely would take few ppl, and it would be easy, if you were the person in charge.

True, but all that is speculation.

[Jack Van Burace]

True, but all that is speculation.
Of course it is. But you would be surprised of how many "unquestionable truths" around you are also speculations :winking56

Nuclear weapons in Iraq is worth reminding, even though I was talking about scientifical truths, which I'm qualified to talk about, beeing already a fully fledged science teacher ^^ Just saying this before someone gets mad because started thinking my comments had something to do with God... or Mohammed :eek13: lol! Crazy world we're living in ain't it?

[Delta]

Of course it is. But you would be surprised of how many "unquestionable truths" around you are also speculations :winking56

Nuclear weapons in Iraq is worth reminding, even though I was talking about scientifical truths, which I'm qualified to talk about, beeing already a fully fledged science teacher ^^ Just saying this before someone gets mad because started thinking my comments had something to do with God... or Mohammed :eek13: lol! Crazy world we're living in ain't it?

but they must be there! it was "slam dunk" intelegence :rolleye09.

[Jack Van Burace]

but they must be there! it was "slam dunk" intelegence :rolleye09.
Huh? I swear I didn't get a word of what you're trying to say now... no offense...

[Neve]

Less one-liners here, please. Spamming will get you warned.

[Jack Van Burace]

Less one-liners here, please. Spamming will get you warned.
By one liner you mean: one line of debate, one line posts/replies, or monopoly of the thread? I'm really trying to use plural arguments, but Delta keeps insiting on "physical evidences" which I have no idea of how could there be any, and wasn't much explained to either...

[Delta]

Huh? I swear I didn't get a word of what you're trying to say now... no offense...
I was being sarcastic, in the days before the war someone (i forget who) said that the fact that the Iraqis had WMDs was a "slam dunk", in other words, they were 100% sure that they had them.

By one liner you mean: one line of debate, one line posts/replies, or monopoly of the thread? I'm really trying to use plural arguments, but Delta keeps insiting on "physical evidences" which I have no idea of how could there be any, and wasn't much explained to either...
All you've really said so far is that "it would be in Bush's best interest if he let 9/11 happen", which doesnt really prove much. certainly not that he let it happen. All I'm asking for is something that accually suggests that he knew it was going to happen, and let it.

[Jack Van Burace]

All I'm asking for is something that accually suggests that he knew it was going to happen, and let it.
The White House admited that they had knowledge of this attack by OBL, but they didn't pay attention to it because it sounded like a lunatic. I will try and search this article later for you, and see if I get the link posted here if I find. And this is not even a decent excuse for allowing a terrorist threat unchecked. If someone else has this and want to help me I would thank too, because it's been like, half a decade now. It'll be a little troublesome to find.

[dragoneyes001]

The White House admited that they had knowledge of this attack by OBL, but they didn't pay attention to it because it sounded like a lunatic. I will try and search this article later for you, and see if I get the link posted here if I find. And this is not even a decent excuse for allowing a terrorist threat unchecked. If someone else has this and want to help me I would thank too, because it's been like, half a decade now. It'll be a little troublesome to find.

you can find all the evidence of prior knowledge to 9/11 in the 9/11 report.

several warnings are listed within but the commision was underfunded and given a short deadline so they had no chance of actually following back why those warnings were never taken seriously by the republicans.

this fact is a large part of the conspiracy theory. why was the commision so gelded when it was about such an important question?

if they had funded them properly and given them a realistic deadline most of the conspiracies would not exist asuming theres nothing to hide except bad management of intel.

[Isis]

I watched a conspiracy theory video in my business class once because we didnt have any work to do, and well it really opened my eyes. It was way too far across the world for it to have an impact on me but I remember being glued to the TV watching everything that's happening, right from after the plane crashed to when the wtc buildings collapsed. With the evidence that the video brought forth, I was fortified at this new information. There's truth and speculations, and its obvious there's members who have very strong feelings either opposing/accepting this theory. I remember quite profoundly the negative impact it proved on muslims around the world and even if I'm not sure what to believe anymore, I have a gut feeling to not like Bush at all. I just don't. My cousin, who lives in Houston, Texas (Bush's hometown) says that although she doesnt like him, she can't say anything or else you will get in deep trouble. I think the system's corrupted but that's just me. I respect that Americans back him up 100%. I just can't help thinking back to this book I read once, Jennifer Government which talked about globalisation, and on the first page it showed the map of the world, but all you could see were two colours, the majority colour, taking up at least 95% of the mapbeing said the same thing: United States of America.

Links to the book if you're interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Government

http://maxbarry.com/jennifergovernment/