How did we get here??? and where are we going??

[EiTheL]

Originally posted by EleCtRoN in the Ogame.org forums
After reading the fabric of the cosmos a book by Brian Greene i began to question the universe and wondered where it came form. I mean something cannot come out of nothing but then this means that there was no beginning there is just Universal expansion and crunching for and infinite time into the past and an infinite time into the furture.

So where did it start i mean for something to create the universe that thing must have been created by something else leaving us with an endless chain of creators.

What is time a fourth direction in which all things move along through parralell realities. ?

I know some of you are really clever so please fill me in on your knowledge and tell me opinion on the questions above.

I thought this was a interesting topic so i would like to bring it here to see your opinions. what i said was:
i'm not going to read all the previous posts (i will read sevral tho) so if i say anything already said then you can flame me by PM ;)

anyway first, there are two theories about where we came from. Darwin's theory and the religious theory (there may be more but i will focus on the christian theory because I am christian). according to darwin, it started with the big bang where everything was first made, dark matter and Hydrogen. What happened next is large masses of hydrogen came together and compacted and in a while, creates a star, eventualy the star will die and everything it has (H, He, O, C, N and all the other simple elements) is spread. they clump up, making a mass which makes planets which orbis the sun. Some comets are formed and orbit suns and all that good stuff.... there are four elements necessery to have/begin life. N, H, C and O. When comets orbit the sun, when it gets close to planets it actualy drops these elements onto the planet. It HAS been scientificly proven that certian chemicals CAN make spontanious reporduction. so somewhere in the universe, those elements come together to make the first cells which evolve into complex cells then evolve eventualy to humans.

Now the religious theory, God made humans and everything around us, thats basicly it in a nutshell. I will talk about eveloution in a later time, comparing religous theory and darwin's theory.

EDIT: i just read the last post a bit, just to keep in mind, different civilations use different calanders, for example the jewish calander is at 4000 years or something like that so dates can vary unless it has been stated that it used the christian calander(which is what we use today)
so.. what do you think?

[M-50]

I think that in my religion that our deities made the world and everything, like many other religions believe so. But practially I also believe that we were created from carbon, aka the main element of us being carbon and other elements created from the big bang and supernova(plural.)

[Joe Black]

Actually, it is very interesting you would bring up the concept of "Dark Matter", especially in the interesting world of atomic theory.

Due to the theory of atoms and basic collision calculations, scientists are lead to believe in the existance of "anti-matter". [Look up the string theory and atomic physics, and it should bring the topic in more detail Myself, I'll attempt to find an article]

This "anti-matter", in theory, is actually what you are lead to expect, the opposite of all actual things. (hard to imagine isn't it?) After all of this, another theory emerged, where to have all matter, you must have the "anti-matter" to balance the universe equation.

Basically, the slightly depressing idea of "In the Beginning, there was nothing, and continues that way till the end of Time". (4th dimension, which is mentioned in the first post)

Look forward to more replies to this topic.

[Habanero]

New theories of the beginning of the universe are made quite frequently, but there just isn't enough information to say anything for certain.

The universe didn't come out of nowhere though. Since there isn't actually a thing called vacuum, or nothingness. The Space itself is sometimes described as a vacuum of some sort in sci-fi and literature, but that's not the case at all. The space is "full" of materia, it's just scattered very sparsely.

On the subject, wherever there is space, particles and anti-particles keep spawning all the time. Usually they cancel each other out, but like in the case of Hawking's radiation, this phenomena is clear to be seen (Those that are more into physics probably know what I'm talking about).

Surprisingly, at least some of the observations from outer space and assumptions about the beginning of the universe resemble the conditions that are created by the black holes all the time. The Hawking's radiation would explain how can there be difference in materia - anti-materia relation too. I'm not saying the universe was created from a black hole, but there are some undeniable similarities.

I don't believe that much in some higher/supernatural beings, but yet I'm very interested about the subject. So here's my two cents on keeping the conversation going on :p

[Sal1981]

I think that in my religion that our deities made the world and everything, like many other religions believe so. But practially I also believe that we were created from carbon, aka the main element of us being carbon and other elements created from the big bang and supernova(plural.)
Where did the deities come from? Or does the existence of this universe not entail their existence?

If you immediately say that they always existed, then why couldn't the universe do so?

If the universe didn't always exist, but these deities did, then you're making a special pleading, that something that doesn't entail everything (i.e. the universe) can't be applied to these deities.

However if you allow for the universe to not existing at some point, and allow these deities to be sacrosanct to this principle, then you'll spiral down an infinite regress. Who created the deities, and who created the super-deities that created the deities ... and so on.

[toxxin]

Where did the deities come from? Or does the existence of this universe not entail their existence?
If you immediately say that they always existed, then why couldn't the universe do so?
If the universe didn't always exist, but these deities did, then you're making a special pleading, that something that doesn't entail everything (i.e. the universe) can't be applied to these deities.
However if you allow for the universe to not existing at some point, and allow these deities to be sacrosanct to this principle, then you'll spiral down an infinite regress. Who created the deities, and who created the super-deities that created the deities ... and so on.

Hmm this is true. The common problem among all theories of the universe. I suppose there are only 2 ways to look at it....either we will never figure it out, or indeed deities do exist and did create a universe in a single given point in time, and just will never figure out why. And the circle of thought continues.

[Aelix]

I thought this was going to be a God vs. Darwin thread, but its more of a Brian Greene apreciation thing. I saw an episode of NOVA (pbs) with Brain Greene and then bought his book "The Elegant Universe" good read, havent finised. THe anti-matter is VERY interesting, if anti-matter is the opposite of matter, or "things", is anti-matter nothing? no.
If there is some diety out there who created this, i think that at one point either we will find out or It will tell us, maybe. Ive looked into this a little and found some very intersesting theories and there are acutally THREE theories about how we came to be. There's It was only God||Darwin was totally right, natural selection, probablity demaded that this happend |AND WHAT I BELIVE IN a combination of both. Is it not possible that God (Im a Christian) desigend natural evolution? that God made it so that we would come along through the means of what Darwin explained? I think so, but you may not.

Where are we going? this has not been blatenly adresed yet.(sorry if you have) hmmm, its a stumper most defiantly. One day, a bajilon years from now, the universe will colapse on it self! Right now our universe is expanding, with momentum from the big bang, or so ive been taught. If so, what is the universe expanding ON? anti-matter? When it collapses, what will happen to US, the human race? will we have already wiped oursleves out or will we be still ambling about in our own solar system? all these questions and no answers! the answers that we get only lead to more and more questions! as our knoledge of these things increases, so does the amount of things we dont know! its the ultimate paradox.
back on subject, the sum of what ive said: err typed:
-God wrote/desigend what Darwin explained
-Were going to keep advancing, and at an even faster rate, realizing we know nothing!!!!
-We know everything about how the world/universe works on our scale. we know why and how the apple dropped on Newton's head. We are in full knowledge about Newtoniean physics, but we've barely scracted teh surface of the whole Quantum theoie/String theore thing
-and thats my two cents, and they are refundable, might delete this later on.......

[DJ StarScream]

What he is saying is true we shall have to move soon as the earth will no long accept are fouling up the planet and as the sun is eating itself If we stay here we will all die so we have to find a sutible planet or attempt to find planet X lets just hope that we do not have to go to planet x or are we already on planet x and we just need to go to earth?

[Evanesque]

There are two different views to be expressed in this situation. One is religious and the other scientific.

According my beliefs, God created the world and the universe. We increased in numbers and settled onto this world. Now while we are here, we are to live an honest and peaceful life with dedication to Him and be kind to others including our enemies.

Our religions and beliefs guide us throughout our lives until we die. When we do die, we all return to God. It is stated that life isn't eternal. There will be a time when all must return to Him and you will be judged according to the life you lived in this world and your behaviour.

In the scientific perspective, we have evolved from animals and as time passes, we will slowly change and give rise to superior species. Survival of the fittest (Charles Darwin's theory) plays a big role. Those weak will falter while those strong enough to protect themselves, adapt to their environment and gather food will prevail. A continuous struggle will take place throughout as it is a battle for life.

Well, that's my opinion.

[athenaofstarlite]

In the center of the universe, there is a huge black hole.

As far as I know, all of the galixies are orbiting and slowly approaching this black hole. As time goes by (say a million-google years from now), all of the galixies will have approached and been incorporated into this black hole. Finally, everything collapses inward, and as the black hole begins to break in on itself, it explodes, much like a supernova, only on an infinately larger scale. Tada, THE BIG BANG.

In this way, I avoid the "creation of dieties" problem. If time is circular, then nothing is ever created or lost, much like energy. Everything simply is, and will be forever, because forever never really happens...get it?

As for evolution, I believe that God, or a superior being, guided it. But I also believe that humans are distinctly seperate from animals, in the ways of language, morals, and society, all of which I believe God instilled upon early humans. In a way, S/He chose us to be His/Her followers, and "created" us to be the way we are - complex, perseptive of each other, compassionate, and beautiful, much like a parent. (This is a variation on one of the basic Quaker beliefs, and used as the premise for the equality of man we (me being a Quaker) so firmly believe in.)

My theory, what do you think?

[Habanero]

In the center of the universe, there is a huge black hole.
As far as I know, all of the galixies are orbiting and slowly approaching this black hole. As time goes by (say a million-google years from now), all of the galixies will have approached and been incorporated into this black hole. Finally, everything collapses inward, and as the black hole begins to break in on itself, it explodes, much like a supernova, only on an infinately larger scale. Tada, THE BIG BANG.


I'll have to correct this a *bit* :winking56

There are huge black holes in the centers of every big galaxy. The one in the center of our galaxy is some million times the mass of our Sun. The Milky Way is a spiral galaxy where most of the materia cycles around the center in a spiral formation, but not much of it is actually drawn closer to it. The materia just orbits around it the same way Earth does around the sun. Black holes start to defy the laws of physics only when something goes inside the event horizon. So we're safe. Except that our galaxy is starting to merge with another one in a few hundred million years, so that may cause some trouble :p

As far as I know, we don't know the location of the center of the universe. I'm not actually sure whether it's possible to locate it at all (not saying anything for sure about that though).

Sort of off-topic but... anyways :rolleye09

[athenaofstarlite]

@ Habanero:

There is a huge black hole in the center of universe. We can locate it by noticing the absense of light as it pulls it in or something...I learned about it last year. And yes, we are growing closer to it all the time. This is why we are going to collide with the Andromeda (sp?) in a few million years. As all the galaxies begin to converge, it will happen several more times. Though all the galaxies are formed around black holes, the one in the center of our universe is much much larger, pulling all matter inward onto itself.

[Habanero]

A black hole in the center of the universe could be possible yes, and all black holes are located in the same way, but care to enlighten me how to locate the center of the universe...? Because of the relative expanding of the universe and all the complications when calculating astronomical distances I just find that a bit hard to believe that it's actually found. I'd like you to prove me wrong with some articles though, since I haven't heard anything about it.

And again, black holes do not pull materia, no matter the size. All systems in space, from planets to galactical super groups have a momentum of their own. Andromeda belongs to the same little galaxy group with us and it just happens to have the same course. nothing special about it.

But again, please prove me wrong if you can :)

[shadow_of_89]

black holes have such a great gravitation that it curves and engulfs the light.....so if u go near a black hole no matter the size u will get sucked and reduced to almost nothing...the theory that there is a black hole in the middle of the universe is pure speculation and btw where do u locate the middle of the universe?
Oki please read the theory concerning the creation of life....so a romanian physicist through discharges in plasma managed to create similar structures like the living cells with the ability to regenerate,grow and multiply and the only thing they don't have is a genetic code(which u get in time).......oooh and the existence of a black hole in the middle of every galaxy might be a speculation too.....

[Habanero]

black holes have such a great gravitation that it curves and engulfs the light.....so if u go near a black hole no matter the size u will get sucked and reduced to almost nothing...

Yep, if you get inside the event horizon, the tidal forces caused by the gravity will rip you to elementary particles. That would probably be quite painful... :p

the existence of a black hole in the middle of every galaxy might be a speculation too.....

I think I said every big one, like ours. And I can tell you, it's not a speculation :winking56

[Rihaku]

1. It is entirely possible for something to come out of nothing. The fact that it goes against flawed human intuition can hardly be counted as a strike against it. What makes you believe that the human brain is even remotely equipped to comprehend cosmis forces utterly beyond any relation to our senses?

2. Time as linear (that is, having a fixed beginning and end ) is another flawed conception straitjacketed by Western thought. Most Eastern philosophies regard time as circular.

3. It's important to realize that the "Theory" of evolution is a theory much as the "Theory" of gravity is a theory - that is, not in scientific debate. The vast, vast majority of scientists of any stripe or caliber agree that evolution and natural selection occur. Do NOT presume that evolution always produces "superior" species in our moral terms. Evolution produces species which are most adapted to surviving and propogating under the circumstances surrounding them. Such genetic versimilitude is one of the reasons 45% of Americans will experience cancer before they die. Also, evolution does NOT preclude (disprove) Christianity.

4. Don't see really what black holes have to do with the creation of our universe.

5. Sal makes a nice point about God.

[Habanero]

1. It is entirely possible for something to come out of nothing.

4. Don't see really what black holes have to do with the creation of our universe.

If you read my first post, it actually sort of proves the nr.1. Materia spawns "out of nothing" around black holes, i wrote that in the first post of mine. After that it was just derailed by some "non-relevantish" posts :rolleye09

[shadow_of_89]

Mater does NOT spawn from nothing near black holes.....it's just a misconception ....It's a physical phenomenon that i will have to talk about with my teacher...he told me the entire process but i can't reproduce it right now...i will come back with a complete answer .....anyways black holes tend to eliminate some of the excess mater that is being sucked in........to have black holes creating something u must think properly on what is their capability and what do they really do......
What does it make u say that something can be created from nothing?prove it....it's like me going hey i'm gonna build a building from thin air(which u can) but from nothing is just nonsense and not scientifically accepted
Time was never said to be linear in modern conception and it cannot be seen as circular either.....time varies for each person(limited theory of relativity and generalized theory of relativity)
L.E. In a relativistic approach u can actually see the bird die and after the bullet shot from the gun of the hunter....

[Habanero]

If you read the replies more closely, you (aswell as I) wouldn't have to spam this thread babbling about black holes. It's called Hawking's radiation. There isn't a thing called vacuum actually, because wherever there is space, particles and anti-particles keep spawning, but it's very hard to detect that event since they cancel each other out in an instant. But on the line of event horizon, it happens that either the particle or antiparticle gets sucked into the hole and shoots the other part away from it. Thus materia is "coming out of nowhere".

Read the posts before answering.

[mind_fissure]

Some thing breathed life into a planet that was dead like a spark to the fire and eventually it lead to intelligent beings that could question where that spark came from. thats the best answer i can give you. which isn't much of a answer but i'm just an intelligent being asking questions myself :) at least i hope so.

[Epyon94]

Where did we come from?
In my opinon the Big Bang theory is the most logical from my point of veiw, or it might be that I grew up with that theory as the commonly accepted theory amongst my family and town.
After the creation of the universe Evolution took place and natural selection happened and so on and so forth.

And now for the fun stuff, my personal theory on the future of humanity...

Where are we going?
(WARNING!! I will most likly sound like a fashist Pig so beware!!)
From an evolutional stand point we have effectivly stopped natural selection.
This is because natueal selection functions be elimiating those who have genes that inhibit their survival, while allowing the survival and procreation of those who's genes enhance them in such a way that they survive long enough to mate. Now through the creation of medical treatments that can prolong the life of people who's genes inhibit the gene their survivial in the natural world we have effectivly weakend the gene pool. This combined by the fact that we can change the enviorment to suit our needs has also weakend humanity as a race, and allowed those with "bad" genes to survive and procreate.
I should point out that what I mean by "bad" genes are not neccicaly people who are over weight or such as in somercumstances those people would survive much better than others. A prime example of this in nature is bears who gain weight during the summer and fall, and then hibernate during the winter. While hibernating the bears body feeds off the fat that is had gained during the months of its activity. Now back to the issue at hand.
These combined factors have stopped evolution as we know it, being that a spieces evoles as a whole, and addapts to fitthe sercomstances.
Rather I believe that humaity will evolve into a number of sub-races. They will start out very similar, much like humaity is now (the largest difference now being skin color), but over time will evolve into radically different sub-races, until Humanity is no longer a single race so much as it has become a class of species like felines or canines... (some may argue that this is already the case, but I am not one of them)
Then as always happens humaity, which is afraid of what it does not understand will prosecute those from the emerging sub-races, and thus seed fear and hatred against those who are percieved as normal.
This entire process will take thousands if not millians of years, so I'm fairly sure that we will no longer be living on earth, by the time it has become as spererated as I believe it to end up being...
Some may say that what I say make no sence, and I guess in part they may be true, that is of course until you take a closer look at the background behind my theories.
Once you do that I believe that you may come to agree with me, or call me a radical (which I guess I am in some ways, but that is besides the point)

This lecture is conluded and I now leave the floor to the next post to continue this debate...
Oh and feel free to rip apart what I have said here, if there are anyquestions I will answer them...

[James Cizuz]

Just a little incite before people start bashing evolution because it's a "theory".
No religions creation story is a theory, it's a hypothesis, simply because there is no evidence, and the only hypothesis on to how it happened was in the book they worship.

A theory is a gathering of massive amount of evidence, hypothesis, observational evidence, and tests. Almost all things in science are theories, and to become a law it has to be explained in every way, and proven in every way.

Gravity is still a theory because they can not agree why the force exists in the first place.

Evolution is a theory simply because they can not reproduce how basic elements can form RNA to start life. Everything else in evolution is proven, except the starting point, which could of simply of been from radiation, say solar winds, or gamma rays when the earths atmosphere when it was thin in early days.

Darwin does not state the big bang, he explains evolution.

Every religious creation story is silly to say the least, it explains why nothing exists, the only answer you get is "God made everything, he also made everything in such a way that all evidence proves to him not making it and makes you not believe in him, and not believing in him means you go to hell, so he wants you to go to hell, or mindlessly follow him"


The big bang does not state, as many say that everything came into existence from nothing. It states energy that gathered in an area became a singularty(like a black hole), then when it became so massive, and so much energy packed into a small space(say 100 billion galaxies into something the size of a planet) it creates massive ammounts of heat, then it gets to a point where it would be so hot it explodes, then when it cools hydrogen is formed. Hydrogen makes suns, suns fuse helium, helium fuses carbon, etc to finally iron, then suns start a massive explosion themselves because iron kills the sun fusing all elements in an instant, making the elements with have now. They come together, form planets. Then evolution takes over.


Also, there is evidence for the big bang(mostly models, and observational(such as all matter is moving outwards, and if you track it back all matter known would be in the same place 13.6 billion years ago)) and other stuff like background radiation.

That also comes into, why would god, not want you to believe in god, by making EVERYTHING in existence evidence against him. Then make a rule if you do not believe, you are tortured forever. You can not say satan did it, because if you did you would be saying it was satan who created the universe, since everything in the universe points to no creator.

We follow the Julian calender, which was stolen by christians.

We will continue to evolve and change. We will die off in some religious war when scientists finally prove without a doupt god does not exist and it causes a major war because of it. The world will continue turning.

[EnzJon]

Here's what I believe:

Now, you've got to understand me. I'm a Catholic Christian, and I firmly believe that God is there and things like that.

I believe that God created the Big Bang, and it was through the Big Bang that the Earth and everything else was formed. I know what you're going to say. The bible says that God made humans and light and animals and everything in seven days, right? Not necessarily. It could have actually been seven years, seven decades, etc. It was through that time that unicellular organisms were created and they, through natural selection and evolution, eventually evolved into the human being.

As some additional information, Pope John Paul II also has endorsed this opinion.

It was also previously mentioned about God and why he lets everything be so terrible. Without God, we wouldn't be here. There's no possible way that humans could have just... happened. Like an accident or something. This is all part of His plan. And why does he leave the world the way it is now? In Mary's last apparition, she told the people that this would be her last apparition, and that she would make no more effort to warn the people of their current way of life. The next time that we would see Mary would be the end of the world.

The majority of the human race has turned against God, believing instead in the empty, evil promises of the devil.

In short, God is everything, without Him, there would be nothing. God loves us, and we should all love him back.

[VampyreLord]

@ EnzJon that's exactly what I belived, back when I was a good Catholic

Evolution will not stop unless we stop reproducing. Perhaps we aren't evolving very quickly, or in any specific directions, but the simple fact is, we continue to die and to have children, meaning the genepool is constantly changing. Some people are more likely to survive than others, and over time (millions of years) our race will likely have changed into several different species...

[II Xion II]

I believe that the true purpose of life is to contemplate the true happiness of the Being through the comprehension of the suffering of the human soul. How can one know true happiness without having experienced and comprehended real suffering? The only way that this can be achieved is through the annihilation of the inhuman and bestial elements which control the human organism through the body's mental, emotional, and sexual/motor/instinctive centers. I believe that these elements control the human psyche and use the human organism like a marionette. These elements are fundamentally the seven deadly sins and must be purged from the mind via a true catharsis.

I do not deny the doctrine of evolution, but it does not concern me. Evolution and involution, pleasure and pain, life and death; all are but two sides to the same coin and through the very concept of duality I believe one can find true comprehension. By comprehending the dualism that encompasses the world and by paying a meticulous amount of attention to one's own psyche, one can fundamentally free themselves from true pain and suffering. This all relies heavily on the study of the Kabbalah (not Madonna Kabbalah) and in-depth concentration and meditation. I can attest personally to the peace and extraordinary feeling that is true concentration.

As for where we are going, I believe that the world has entered into the Age of Kali-Yuga, the Iron Age, and that a loss of morals followed by an increase in depravity and intellectual whorism will lead to the ultimate destruction of this very civilization. In fact, I truly believe that the faux science of this age and the rampant materialism of this epoch is the true Antichrist and that the world is trapped within a ego-induced bliss and sense of security.

These may sound highly foreign and outlandish to some people, but I assure people that I have heavily research both mentally and consciously the many aspects of these beliefs. I have oscillated in my life between Catholic fanaticism and libertarian atheism/materialism of the most extreme types, and I have finally started to stop following the incessant dialogue of the mind and to investigate with full consciousness and concentration. Those are my views (highly simplified and abridged) regarding the purpose of life and the direction in which civilization is headed.

[James Cizuz]

Unlike what you are trying to base how being smarter will bring down this world, it does not work that way. The iron age has come and gone, the atomic age has come and gone, the fusion age is starting, the technology age is still on-going. This is the computer age.

We have not lost one moral. Please give me any loss of morals.
Rules: Can not use outdated rules, especially if they don't apply to today and have no means of actual reason. Ie. Any rule in any holy text.

What your trying to say is the dumber we are the more we won't kill eachother off? Being smarter to advance our race into a civil race is bad I guess.

Other then meditation not working, I should know I do it for 1 hour a day. No not because some religion asked me to, no religion made up meditation. You can not claim to have made up the collection of thoughts in a peaceful area.

Well atleast you don't deny proof for evolution like most do. One can free themselves from pain? I agree, it's a feeling. You don't need to attain a higher level of consiousness or anything to get rid of pain. Thats one reason that if hell did exist i'm not afraid, pain is simply a feeling. The more you feel it the more your used to it, also if you just ignore it, or tell yourself it's just a feeling and to not let it hurt you. Furthermore pain does not come from the pain, it comes from your nerves, they send pain signils, without them you would never feel it.

I can right now break my arm with little pain, of course I would not do that to prove a point because I need my arm. Pain is not something you should want to get rid of, it lets you know something is wrong. However you do not have to let it hurt you. One example I can give is when me and a friend always have dumb chalanges. Such as ice packs directly on the balls for about 3 hours, or lying out in the snow with no shirt and shorts on till someone gives up. Withstanding preasure points, putting alot of weight on your arm or stomach or any area, like 200 lbs in dumbells to see who lasts longer. Nothing that will actually damage you, but it's fun. Other then that we would not do anything to damage our bodies not because of the pain simply because that would be dumb.

[CrushDance]

This is a hard question IMO. Like you said something can't come from nothing, same with God. He would have had to come from somewhere also.

See it's impossible :(

[II Xion II]

This is a hard question IMO. Like you said something can't come from nothing, same with God. He would have had to come from somewhere also.
See it's impossible :(

I would just suggest adding a little more "substance" to your arguments next time. Epistemology and ontology would not exist if everything was so black and white. Any religious person would argue that God has always existed and hence was not created from anything. If you study the innate concept of beginnings and ends, you might come to the conclusion that these are just pre-programmed ideas that have no bearing on reality. This idea could simply be an illusory, effervescent one that restricts reasoning without such a concept. As much as you think your proof works, it doesn't. Philosophically, if a step in the logic of your reasoning fails (this would be an epistemological failure, due to taking "everything must have a beginning and an end" as an axiom), then your entire argument does so too. I am not saying it is wrong, but that possibility cannot be ignored and is why epistemology (the study of knowledge itself and the knowable) is still thriving, even with the Dawn of the Age of "Reason."


Unlike what you are trying to base how being smarter will bring down this world, it does not work that way. The iron age has come and gone, the atomic age has come and gone, the fusion age is starting, the technology age is still on-going. This is the computer age.

First of all, the terms I was using were not anthropological in nature. Second of all, just because you think everything is improving does not mean it is. There is still rampant war (worse than all the ages before us), massive famine, many inequalities (especially in socioeconomic status), natural destruction of the planet, and enormous suffering. We are closer to annihilating ourselves than ever before, if that is what you call "advanced" or "progress," then by all means we are the most "advanced" and "progressed" people to ever inhabit this Earth. Science has solved NONE of these problems, macrocosmically it has only exacerbated the situation via the introduction of new weapons and pollutants.

We have not lost one moral. Please give me any loss of morals.
Rules: Can not use outdated rules, especially if they don't apply to today and have no means of actual reason. Ie. Any rule in any holy text.

You seem to be the dictator of what is moral. By restricting what can and cannot be moral to your personal whims and then expecting me to name what is moral out of what is left (nothing!!!) is logically absurd. That's like saying "run to the store to get bread, but you can't move." I am not so much referring to "morals" as to global, innate principles passed down through such texts. "Morals" are a product of their time and are ever-changing, but what is universally held sacred does not have to be so. Ethics, as a philosophical school, exists to just debate this problem, so don't expect to answer it with one sentence next time.

What your trying to say is the dumber we are the more we won't kill eachother off? Being smarter to advance our race into a civil race is bad I guess.

Again you are jumping the gun by associating smart with technologically advanced and with science. Just because you think that we are smarter does not make it so and is vastly cynical towards earlier eras in our history. Being alive for 70 years or so, I am sure qualifies people to criticize earlier civilizations. Do you know that the world's foremost expert on the cryptic Sumerian language and culture believes aliens visited them and helped advance civilization? It is strange that experts (especially foremost ones) can disagree. Guess that proves that just because you think you are smart that you are right.

Other then meditation not working, I should know I do it for 1 hour a day. No not because some religion asked me to, no religion made up meditation. You can not claim to have made up the collection of thoughts in a peaceful area.

You ignored ENTIRELY what I said. I brought up the topic of true meditation in regards to Easter tradition (where it is still laboriously taught in schools). What you are doing is emphatically now real meditation, if it was, then you would reach a lot of different conclusions about life since meditation is a way to access unadulterated, objective information, nothing more!


Well atleast you don't deny proof for evolution like most do.

No, I don't, because everything follows the processes of evolution and involution, from our morals to natural processes. Evolution does not discount anything (unless you are an extreme Christian literalist).

One can free themselves from pain? I agree, it's a feeling. You don't need to attain a higher level of consiousness or anything to get rid of pain. Thats one reason that if hell did exist i'm not afraid, pain is simply a feeling. The more you feel it the more your used to it, also if you just ignore it, or tell yourself it's just a feeling and to not let it hurt you. Furthermore pain does not come from the pain, it comes from your nerves, they send pain signils, without them you would never feel it.

You must have no clue about Eastern culture or views. If you did then you would delete that entire quote and redefine your argument. To say pain is physical is wrong at best!!! Any expert in psychology will tell you psychological pain in many cases equals or exceed that of physical pain. The tragedy of the human condition is enormous with people always suffering, always lamenting. What is true happiness? What is true freedom? One who only has their head grounded in sensual, indoctrinated thoughts could never truly comprehend the enormity of the world's suffering and the struggle to find one's existence. Science has indoctrinated you well, I am sorry I have to keep repointing out the fact that SCIENCE IS A PROCESS which is continually improving itself and edifying itself. Once you believe one thing, your freedom of thought becomes petrified and uninteresting. To define pain simply in terms of nerves is wrong on so many levels .

I can right now break my arm with little pain, of course I would not do that to prove a point because I need my arm. Pain is not something you should want to get rid of, it lets you know something is wrong.

I am literally tearing my hair out because you have either yet to see my point or are truly that ignorant (I am hoping it is the former). Pain does not have to be physical, what you are saying is highly patronizing and axiomatic. Everyone knows that physical pain is necessary for survival.

However you do not have to let it hurt you. One example I can give is when me and a friend always have dumb chalanges. Such as ice packs directly on the balls for about 3 hours, or lying out in the snow with no shirt and shorts on till someone gives up. Withstanding preasure points, putting alot of weight on your arm or stomach or any area, like 200 lbs in dumbells to see who lasts longer. Nothing that will actually damage you, but it's fun. Other then that we would not do anything to damage our bodies not because of the pain simply because that would be dumb.

Stop beating a dead horse, see my above three posts.

@James I am done posting in the space thread because I have already exhaustively explained my position and I don't feel like repeating myself (like I am doing here).

[Lisa.]

I really have no idea, and life is too short to speculate about these kind of things, we will NEVER find out anyway.

To be honest, I don't think there is anything after death, only oblivion.

[VampyreLord]

Lisa, CrushDance, please try to post longer arguments, hm?

[backwardsnemo]

my apologies first to anybody whos religious views i infringe upon.
I Personaly would love to belive in somthing but I cant find any ideas that stand up to a severe constructive argument. I had a very intresting talk with my teacher for debationg and we tried to do a debate over the existance of god it went somthing like this:

Teacher: God must exist because what made everything else?
Me: What made God?
Teacher: God was there origionaly and there was nothing before him.
Me: Prove it
Teacher: Fine but prove where it came from otherwise.

This Is my basic profe for my theories on human phycology, the fact that people need to belive, we have no idea of infinity, we cant imagon it just like we cant imageon nothing. We think black is nothing but it is infact that colour "Black".

I personaly belive that after death we seas to exist atall but I can't imageon what seasing to exist realy means. Therefor to make life easy for myself I think that we are stuck in a loop. The universe will forever run and we will forever die and be reeborn and it must continue. This is where the standard argument rips it up, where did it come from?

I cant answere it and I dont belive anybody ever will. In the words of the last samurai Do you belive a man has a destiny? I Belive a man dose what he can until his destiny is revealed.

I am known as the little buddha at school as i Dont speack much except for incitful rants like this. Thanksyou for listening