Yoruichi vs Byakuya [Manga Spoilers]

[SenpaiRetsu]

^Another unprovable claim. The kidou part I mean. Shunko is kidou combined with hand to hand. Nothing else. We don't know what level of kidou, nor how difficult it is to combine with melee attacks, so we can't just say her kidou is greater than Byakuya's just because she knows a trick that he doesn't. Soi Fon, a character who hasn't been shown to be skilled in kidou either, can use Shunko aswell.

Are we going to assume her kidou is better than Byakuya's aswell? Or Rukia, because she can combine two different kidou into one? That's another neat kidou trick Byakuya hasn't used, so maybe she's better at kidou than Byakuya is too?

Ok ninjabot i'll concede that to you. let's say for the sake of argument that byakuya skills in kidou are better(which is doubtful) but let's assume it. and you are all saying that just because her hand to hand combat is good doesn't gurantee her swordsmanship is equal to her hand to hand skills. Ok i'll even give you that. We'll say for the sake of argument that they are not equal.

I have said months ago in this post that i don't think Yourichi can beat Byakuya if he has SKY out and she doesn't have her zanpakuto. I don't think it's likely that it'd even get to that point but lets say he does release. Let's be fair then and compare maximum to maximum.

If Byakuya unreleased with a sword is roughly equal, a little better, or a little worse than Yoruichi without one. then by default her with a sword is going to clearly make her>>over him both unreleased. and don't give me that "o her swordfighting skills might not be that great" no matter what someone with a sword is going to be more dangerous than if they didn't have one. more range and more killing power. and so let's say they both go bankai. at a minimum no matter what Yoruichi's bankai abilities may be she'll get at least a 5X boost, knowing her heritage she's probably going to get the full 10X boost.

So that means she's faster, stronger, and WAY more experienced. she was a captain when Byakuya was a kid still. What do you say to this?

[Distained]

If both's specialty is speed and one is faster than the other(Yoruichi>Byakuya) then shouldn't that person have the higher chance of winning?

If Soifon couldn't win then why should Byakuya be any different, she seems to be faster, & understands Yoruichi's fighting style better. She basically copied it. Ontop of that Byakuya used his Bankai against Ichigo who did this in response

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/163/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/163/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/163/15/

And I'm pretty sure Ichigo isn't faster than Yoruichi. Yes Ichigo gains a speed increase in his Bankai, but Yoruichi gains one in Shunkou.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/158/15/
"That energy is installed into the user's arms and legs to enhance them for battle..."

So unlike Ichigo who only gains a speed increase, she gains both power & speed from a technique that isn't Shikai or Bankai. Also she's able to fire that energy as a Kidou blast. Her speed is already greater than Ichigo's w/o Shunkou, so with it Byakuya would be forced to use Cicada to stand a chance against her, which is her own technique so ofcourse there's the chance she's better with it. So with that out of the way Byakuya has no known way of increasing his speed further to match hers, he even admitted himself that his upperhand against Ichigo came from his repeated battles up to that point.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/15/
He lost alot of stamina which wont happen if Yoruichi & Byakuya get into it in a fair fight. However rusty she's gotten between current time & when she left doesn't really matter assuming Byakuya is no where near as strong as she was...her speed which seems to matter alot in a fight vs Byakuya is good enough to pull the win imo

[xiphosforr]

i think if Yoruichi used her soul slayer she'd have a better chance of winning, but i doubt she could beat Byakuya

[Jay3205]

If both's specialty is speed and one is faster than the other(Yoruichi>Byakuya) then shouldn't that person have the higher chance of winning?

If Soifon couldn't win then why should Byakuya be any different, she seems to be faster, & understands Yoruichi's fighting style better. She basically copied it. Ontop of that Byakuya used his Bankai against Ichigo who did this in responseSoi Fon is just a fast melee fighter. Byakuya's speed makes very little difference considering his bankai is much faster than he is, is able to defend, is able to attack, has multiple forms, and can surround/attack from literally every angle.

And I'm pretty sure Ichigo isn't faster than Yoruichi. Yes Ichigo gains a speed increase in his Bankai, but Yoruichi gains one in Shunkou.How much faster Yoruichi becomes hasn't been shown, and there's nothing to signify that shunko (that is split between providing strength & speed) would make a bigger speed improvement than a bankai fully dedicated to speed.

If Yoruichi could win, please explain...
1. Why she'd run away? It's better to fight 1 weaker captain on a bridge than 5+ stronger ones later on an open field.
2. Why she said nobody could beat Byakuya?
3. Why she said "ONLY you (Ichigo) have the potential to beat Byakuya"?
4. Why train Ichigo specifically so he could beat Byakuya, when the process is difficult, not guaranteed to work, and can be avoided entirely just by letting Yoruichi fight?

If Byakuya unreleased with a sword is roughly equal, a little better, or a little worse than Yoruichi without one. then by default her with a sword is going to clearly make her>>over him both unreleased. and don't give me that "o her swordfighting skills might not be that great" no matter what someone with a sword is going to be more dangerous than if they didn't have one. more range and more killing power. and so let's say they both go bankai. at a minimum no matter what Yoruichi's bankai abilities may be she'll get at least a 5X boost, knowing her heritage she's probably going to get the full 10X boost.By default, having a sword isn't going to guarantee her to be more effective. To use a sword, you want to be as far as you can from the opponent while still being able to cut them. That means, if you fight another swordsman, you'd better hope his skills are worse than your own, which isn't likely if he spends all his time on swordsmanship and you focus nearly exclusively on melee. If you get too close, you aren't taking advantage of the swords length, and you introduce more problems like having your arms grabbed, and you can't swing hard against an opponent that is too close.

[Esca]

1. Why she'd run away? It's better to fight 1 weaker captain on a bridge than 5+ stronger ones later on an open field.
2. Why she said nobody could beat Byakuya?
3. Why she said "ONLY you (Ichigo) have the potential to beat Byakuya"?
4. Why train Ichigo specifically so he could beat Byakuya, when the process is difficult, not guaranteed to work, and can be avoided entirely just by letting Yoruichi fight?

If you notice, the battle had to be split up into pairs in order for it to work and be fair. I don't think Yoruichi could take both Byakuya and Soi Fon on and win. You also have to remember their mission was to bring the Hougyoku back, fighting everyone TOO earlier would mess everything up and screw them over. Same with Aizen's plan.

Could have meant those on the bidge, excluding herself and Ukitake.

Concerning the "ONLY you," it could be "ONLY you out of your friends".

The above reasons, and I'm sure there were some hidden motives. I mean, look who sent them.

It's not wise to fight every chance you get, it will mess up what you're trying to accomplish. My apologies if this was difficult to understand, I was distracted.

[SenpaiRetsu]

If you notice, the battle had to be split up into pairs in order for it to work and be fair. I don't think Yoruichi could take both Byakuya and Soi Fon on and win. You also have to remember their mission was to bring the Hougyoku back, fighting everyone TOO earlier would mess everything up and screw them over. Same with Aizen's plan.

Could have meant those on the bidge, excluding herself and Ukitake.

Concerning the "ONLY you," it could be "ONLY you out of your friends".

The above reasons, and I'm sure there were some hidden motives. I mean, look who sent them.

It's not wise to fight every chance you get, it will mess up what you're trying to accomplish. My apologies if this was difficult to understand, I was distracted.

I completely agree. Soifon stated that Yoruichi was to be arrested because she helped Urahara escape from SS. Whether captains like each other or not they are still on the same side. If Yoruichi stepped in than Ukitake would have had to step in to help defend Byakuya. Not because Byakuya is weak or anything, but if he's going against people like drifters or Ganju then Ukitake will not double team them. Byakuya is quite capable. But for a former captain, and head of the secret mobile ops corps, then that would have actually been an all out battle. She really wouldn't have stood a chance of fighting both of them.

@Jay, Yoruichi did not go there to fight Byakuya, she didn't even go to there save Rukia. she went to assist Ichigo, so that he could do Urahara's bidding. nothing more. She fought soifon for personal reasons, basically to show off that she still pwns her.

[Chi]

For real, though... Soi Fong a captain class oponent with her Zapakuto release was still no match for Yorouichi who didn't even have a sword present. That's is the difference in power between her and the rest of the mid-tier captains which Byakuya clearly falls under.

[Distained]

Soi Fon is just a fast melee fighter. Byakuya's speed makes very little difference considering his bankai is much faster than he is, is able to defend, is able to attack, has multiple forms, and can surround/attack from literally every angle.

Yeah, but obviously that isn't enough for the faster characters of the series. Ichigo played with him to start with & payed for it. Yoruichi isn't inexperienced to make Ichigo's mistakes.

How much faster Yoruichi becomes hasn't been shown, and there's nothing to signify that shunko (that is split between providing strength & speed) would make a bigger speed improvement than a bankai fully dedicated to speed.

His bankai is fully dedicated to improving his regular speed. His regular speed isn't Yoruichi speed. She should at least be onpar with Bankai Ichigo using Shunkou even if we're assuming it is a very low speed increase.

If Yoruichi could win, please explain...
1. Why she'd run away? It's better to fight 1 weaker captain on a bridge than 5+ stronger ones later on an open field.
2. Why she said nobody could beat Byakuya?
3. Why she said "ONLY you (Ichigo) have the potential to beat Byakuya"?
4. Why train Ichigo specifically so he could beat Byakuya, when the process is difficult, not guaranteed to work, and can be avoided entirely just by letting Yoruichi fight?

1. She didn't go there to fight/save anyone. Her purpose was to help train Ichigo & make sure he wasn't killed. She did that.
2. "No one" is too vague, she could've meant none of his group.
3. Same as 2, out of his group he only had that potential.
4. If she was supposed to do everything for him Urahara would've just went instead, she didn't even know Ichigo at that point. Nothing for her to gain by fighting his battles.

By default, having a sword isn't going to guarantee her to be more effective. To use a sword, you want to be as far as you can from the opponent while still being able to cut them. That means, if you fight another swordsman, you'd better hope his skills are worse than your own, which isn't likely if he spends all his time on swordsmanship and you focus nearly exclusively on melee. If you get too close, you aren't taking advantage of the swords length, and you introduce more problems like having your arms grabbed, and you can't swing hard against an opponent that is too close.

She may use a knife or weapon suitable to her melee fighting style, every character uses a weapon suiting their style.

[Zanga]

For real, though... Soi Fong a captain class oponent with her Zapakuto release was still no match for Yorouichi who didn't even have a sword present. That's is the difference in power between her and the rest of the mid-tier captains which Byakuya clearly falls under.

Uhm so what if Soi Fong had her shikai out? When it comes to an opponent like Yourichi, her shikai is almost obselete since all you had to do is dodge her little blade, and we all know Yourichi is faster than Soi Fong. And besides, Yourichi was on the run for the majority of the fight, but just beat Soi Fong cause the stupid girl was over-emotional.

I'm pretty damn sure Soi Fong's bankai could've dealth with Shunko.

4. If she was supposed to do everything for him Urahara would've just went instead, she didn't even know Ichigo at that point. Nothing for her to gain by fighting his battles.

Urahara is unable to enter the Soul society, as shown when the group first goes through the gate.

[Distained]

Uhm so what if Soi Fong had her shikai out? When it comes to an opponent like Yourichi, her shikai is almost obselete since all you had to do is dodge her little blade, and we all know Yourichi is faster than Soi Fong. And besides, Yourichi was on the run for the majority of the fight, but just beat Soi Fong cause the stupid girl was over-emotional.

I'm pretty damn sure Soi Fong's bankai could've dealth with Shunko.



Urahara is unable to enter the Soul society, as shown when the group first goes through the gate.

lol

Released Soi Fong < Yoruichi
Shouldn't that mean.
Bankai Soi Fong < Shunko Yoruichi

Since she relies on her own strength it'd make sense that she have a technique equal to a Bankai power-up and Shunko seems to be her power-up move.

Emotional or not, she got her move canceled out in the end by a more experienced fighter. Also Soi Fong's Shikai 2hit kill made it impossible for Yoruichi to be the aggressor in that fight, unless she wanted to be killed.


And Urahara not being able to go through doesn't change the fact that it wasn't her battle to fight.

[Jay3205]

If you notice, the battle had to be split up into pairs in order for it to work and be fair. I don't think Yoruichi could take both Byakuya and Soi Fon on and win. You also have to remember their mission was to bring the Hougyoku back, fighting everyone TOO earlier would mess everything up and screw them over. Same with Aizen's plan.

Could have meant those on the bidge, excluding herself and Ukitake.

Concerning the "ONLY you," it could be "ONLY you out of your friends".

The above reasons, and I'm sure there were some hidden motives. I mean, look who sent them.

It's not wise to fight every chance you get, it will mess up what you're trying to accomplish. My apologies if this was difficult to understand, I was distracted.Yoruichi didn't know Ukitake and Shunsui would actively help her side. If Yoruichi fought on the bridge, it would be her + Ichigo vs Byakuya & Ukitake, of which Byakuya should be taken out fairly quickly considering how much faster some people think she is. Rescuing Rukia later meant taking a chance of fighting Byakuya, Yamamoto, Unohana, Soi Fon, and quite possibly Ukitake and Shunsui if they did not unexpectedly help. She would've been much better off fighting on the bridge.

All these exclusions are things that are purely fan-based and are not written. It's like me saying, "Well, Yamamoto meant Shunsui & Ukitake had the best teamwork/teamwork-power of any captains... except all the ex-captain vaizards, Hanatarou, and whoever else I need to name to win the debate". Of course he never said half of that, and Hanatarou could theoretically use his zanpakutou to kill a captain in 1-hit, so it must be valid. "When Byakuya says he can double the speed of his bankai with his hands... he could also triple or quadruple it, but simply stopped at the speed that was enough to surround Ichigo". "Ulquiorra said Ichigo's reiatsu briefly went higher than his own... but he only meant higher than his non-released, non-battle-ready form". The list could go on and on and be made to prove anything if we start using what could've been implied instead of what was actually written.

@Jay, Yoruichi did not go there to fight Byakuya, she didn't even go to there save Rukia. she went to assist Ichigo, so that he could do Urahara's bidding. nothing more. She fought soifon for personal reasons, basically to show off that she still pwns her."Urahara's bidding" wasn't anything, or at least nothing shown to the readers. The presumed mission was to save Rukia, which admittely requires beating Byakuya, which apparently could've been accomplished easily but she instead ran. There was no need to assist Ichigo since Ichigo wouldn't be in danger if she'd just beat Byakuya right there. If Ichigo needed bankai, he could've attained for the purpose of standing a chance against the other 7+ captains that would soon follow, had Aizen not reappeared.

Yeah, but obviously that isn't enough for the faster characters of the series. Ichigo played with him to start with & payed for it. Yoruichi isn't inexperienced to make Ichigo's mistakes.How is not having an omnidirectional, ridiculously fast and deadly, defensive and offensive attack not good enough? Yoruichi isn't Aizen, and she isn't Yamamoto. If Yoruichi was faster than bankai Ichigo, then a weighted Yoruichi would still be very far from needing cicada to escape Byakuya.

His bankai is fully dedicated to improving his regular speed. His regular speed isn't Yoruichi speed. She should at least be onpar with Bankai Ichigo using Shunkou even if we're assuming it is a very low speed increase.That's based on the assumption that Yoruichi is already multiple times faster, which there isn't support for. The last time I checked, if I am multiple times faster than someone, and I strong enough to make craters with my punches, a bit of extra weight isn't going to let them catch up to me. The only fast thing she's done is escape from Byakuya, while nearly getting caught. If she was multiple times faster, she wouldn't nearly get caught, unless Ichigo somehow is 10x her weight.


1. She didn't go there to fight/save anyone. Her purpose was to help train Ichigo & make sure he wasn't killed. She did that.
2. "No one" is too vague, she could've meant none of his group.
3. Same as 2, out of his group he only had that potential.
4. If she was supposed to do everything for him Urahara would've just went instead, she didn't even know Ichigo at that point. Nothing for her to gain by fighting his battles.1. If her purpose was solely to train Ichigo, why not let Urahara train him instead? There's no point in going from training with Urahara to going to SS just to train more. If she didn't think she'd have enough time beforehand, then her mission obviously wouldn't be to train him even more... it would be to go save Rukia, which is what they actually say.

2. "No one" isn't vague when talking about a specific place. "Nobody on this forum speaks 55 languages" isn't going to mean "nobody except me, you, and the other dozen people I secretly implied but don't mention". Similarly, "nobody there (there = bridge) could win" isn't vague. The only clearer way would be to say "nobody there, including you, Ganju, Rukia, and Ukitake's hiding VCs" which is redundant.

3. See #2

4. Urahara couldn't go. Yoruichi's only reason to go was because Urahara asked. She had nothing to gain from training him, fighting Soi Fon, and possibly getting arrested either, but she still did it.

[Zanga]

lol

Released Soi Fong < Yoruichi
Shouldn't that mean.
Bankai Soi Fong < Shunko Yoruichi

Since she relies on her own strength it'd make sense that she have a technique equal to a Bankai power-up and Shunko seems to be her power-up move.

Emotional or not, she got her move canceled out in the end by a more experienced fighter. Also Soi Fong's Shikai 2hit kill made it impossible for Yoruichi to be the aggressor in that fight, unless she wanted to be killed.


And Urahara not being able to go through doesn't change the fact that it wasn't her battle to fight.

lolz Yourichi > Shikai Soi Fong? Wait lemme go re-read that chapter.

Nope, all I read was Yourichi running away the entire damn fight, and basically won with shunko. She wasn't doing a good job of running away either, she got hit about 5 times, meaning 5 butterflies on her body, meaning sooner or later Yourichi would've died had she not pulled out Shunko, which she did in a desperate attempt to win.

And if you acn pull out a logical explanation to how Shunko makes Yourichi 10 times stronger which is what a bankai does, pretty sure Bankai Soi Fong > Shunko Yourichi.

If Yourichi has her zanpaktou though, the story changes.

[smach]

My logic isn't flawed; I have no idea why you're talking about snails and rocks, since the situation you've described is nothing like the one you're arguing against.Actually, it is. My point is that having greater speed doesn't guarantee victory against the slower person who's only a couple feet away from the finish line. Byakuya was further away from Rukia than Gin was, and also had no defense against Shinsou because Ichigo destroyed his sword, which would've definitely improved his chances of survival. If they were the same distance away from Rukia then Byakuya would've definitely made it before Shinsou even cleared half the distance.

You implied that Shinsou was slow... so slow that a cero could move 10+ ft in the time it takes it takes Shinsou to move 1cm. However, shunpo is depicted as too fast too see by normal standards... the fighters appear to disappear while using shunpo. Cero is clearly visible, as is the significantly faster bala. This means a shunpo is faster than a cero. If Shinsou were as slow as you claimed, then it would be impossible for it to hit someone mid-shunpo since the shunpo would be faster, especially considering how far Byakuya managed to get behind Aizen. However, that clearly is not the case, meaning Shinsou is indeed fast, more than fast enough to move 1cm while cero moves 10ft.Ceros, or energy blasts in general, get executed at the speed of light, or somewhere close to it. If ceros were slower than Shinsou then we should (and definitely would) see more frames of their execution than those of Shinsou...which has been the other way around for as far back as I can remember.

If a cero is fired from close range then dodging is not going to be as easy as you make it seem. Ichigo has only managed to dodge once, which was after firing a KGT into it. And even then, it was a last minute evasion, which was possible only because he released his attack at the same time that the cero was executed.

Also, according to your perspective, Hitsugaya is much faster than Byakuya because he dodged the same Shinsou that hit Kuchiki, even though he was millimeters away from the tip of the blade. So by your own explanation, Byakuya's speed is equivalent to Matsumoto's, who also managed to intercept at the last second.

What part of TIMING don't you understand. Cero is not instant; a baseball pitch is not instant. As has been demonstrated many many many times (in fact, EVERY TIME), cero requires a few moments to charge/lift up hand/gather energy in their mouth, nearly always more than .5 seconds. That is more than enough time for a superhuman to prepare to dodge or dodge; they are not forced to only move after the cero is fired. That is like trying to dodge an arrow once it has been fired, as opposed to when it's being aimed.Aside from the anime, I don't recall any ceros having much time to charge up in the manga, with the exception of Shinji's and Ichigo's hollowised form, along with Grimjow's mega-cero...all of which were undoubtly more powerful than the ones we usually see. And even out of those exceptions, none of them were dodged or shown to be evadable.

Also, cero is not faster than the fastest character. If it were, it would be unblockable and uncounterable, which it clearly isn't.Well...it is arguable that Yoruichi simply couldn't dodge because she had other issues at hand at that moment.

(Going by your reasoning)Urahara can dodge a bala, which is 20x faster than cero, which you claim is too fast for Byakuya to dodge, (which by your reasoning) means Urahara 20x faster than Byakuya, who can nearly catch up to weighted Yoruichi. For Yoruichi to have the title of flash queen, it would mean her speed is AT LEAST comparable (not necessarily equal) to Urahara. Therefore, unweighted Yoruichi is 20x faster than Byakuya, meaning the weight of Ichigo was 20x Yoruichi's weight. Something in that line of reasoning seems... off.Don't forget to include into your statement that the "weighted Yoruichi" you're referring too was not even being serious at that moment, while Byakuya was.

Your comparison of weight to speed is flawed and I don't see the point of trying to make such a ratio so you're better off discarding it. If that logic was valid then Yachiru should be amazingly fast or at least amazingly strong because she tiptoed to the top of a building with Zaraki on her shoulder.

Also, it would be retarded for SS to give a title like "Flash Goddess" to Yoruichi when her speed is mediocre; on the flip side, Byakuya should also have a similar title like "Flash Prince" since his speed is supposedly really close to Yoruichi's...which still wouldn't explain his inability to react at the bridge.

Stop starting with the assumption that Byakuya can't react to Yoruichi; that is what you "assume"so you can't prove it by posting your assumption.Uh...if he could react to Yoruichi (WHO WAS MESSING AROUND) then he would've managed to at least land a hit on her...which he didn't do. On the other hand, Yoruichi had more than one opportunity to finish him off but didn't take them, because her goal/motive was not to fight or kill anyone.

Funny... my neighbor effortlessly dodged the neighborhood bully by running away, all while carrying a bag of books. This surely must mean that he can beat the bully and his omnidirectional weapon in a fight.Exactly. If your neighbor was fooling around with a sack of books heavier than himself, and still managed to wait for the bully's punch to be in front of his face, just to appear +20ft behind the bully at the last second, with a smile on his face, it is completely logical for him to destroy the bully and his truckload of shrapnel...because your awesome bully can't effectively react to his movements.

Either way, what you posted in no way refutes what Yoruichi said. Yoruichi was "there", and she said "NOBODY there" could win. No matter how much you try to dance around that, it is clearly written. Being able to win and being able to run away are not the same thing. At no point is Byakuya unable to react to Yoruichi, as he clearly is able to follow her and attack. Unable to react is what happened against bankai Ichigo... i.e. not being able to move before the opponent has already executed their attack.So let me get this straight: Since Yoruichi was able to go to the other side of the bridge while Byakuya's sword was rapidly approaching her from -2ft away, she will definitely not be able to execute an attack before Byakuya can even react. Wow...what type of logic is it where effortlessly dodging a point-blank range attack proves you can't attack your opponent before he can even react..?

Regarding Yoruichi's words, it is pretty clear that we have totally different perspectives or ways of analyzing the situation; you take it word for word while I take into account past events and grammar ie the bridge scene and the context of the question she was answering. It's up to you if you want to disregard it for now and let manga prove itself, or drop this whole topic altogether.

1)She did have reason to fight him. There was no need to save Ichigo, since Ichigo was not injured. Beating Byakuya would've prevented the need to save Ichigo, since the danger would be removed. Your 1st point is analogous to saying "I need to save Billy from the dog, though Billy is uninjured, and I can easily beat the dog, who I can easily beat before it can react to me. Therefore, I'll run away instead."Ichigo wasn't injured...? You may want to rethink that.

You also seem to be forgetting that there was a senior captain on the scene as well, along with two witnesses keeping their distance who could've reported the incident and called for reinforcements if an actual fight erupted.

2) Fighting would've solved everything, as the only way to take back Rukia was to beat Byakuya. The situation is no different from Ichigo beating Byakuya and taking Rukia and Yoruichi doing the same. It inevitable results in a fight. If taking Rukia without a fight was an option, there would be no point in specifically training to fight Byakuya, since as Yoruichi stated, fighting a captain class opponent was a scenario to be avoided at all cost.Adding to the point above, Ichigo didn't think the situation through; his instinct blinds his judgment and leaves no room for intelligence to come into play. And you're still forgetting about his injuries from the Zaraki fight.

3) So you're saying, fighting 1 person on a bridge, where you can't be surrounded by other opponents and when you have a *supposedly* large speed advantage, is somehow worse than attacking in an open field with 6+ captains there, with the majority of them being stronger?Refer to the points above. Factor in that her reiatsu and location would alert almost every person of importance so either way, she'd be facing multiple captian class shinigami. Be it on a narrow bridge or an open land field, the odds of defeating multiple captian level opponents are still low. Even for the fastest character of the series.

4)Ichigo can use getsuga tenshou, but doesn't know the name. It would not affect his ability to fire it off whenever Yoruichi creates an opening, nor would it hamper his ability to fend off other captains/vice captains that may come. Either way, it's better than running away and risk fighting all the captains later.Ichigo doesn't even know how to use his zanpakuto. Before learning bankai, all he could do is utilize it at the last minute as his grand finale, which also resulted in him passing out as well. He didn't even know the name of the attack, so how do you expect him to suddenly fire on command..? The injuries he got from Zaraki were still in bad condition, so what makes you think he would've lasted very long against Byakuya?

I also don't get how he'd even hit Byakuya. Are you trying to imply that Byakuya would just stand still while Yoruichi gives Ichigo the signal to fire? What is she going to do, grab Byakuya and yell to Ichigo to fire a GT that he can't even use at will? The same Ichigo whose use of shikai was faulty to say the least?

5) Resistance is not futile if you can win. The opposite of futile resistance is successful resistance. A successful resistance would be beating the person who is attacking you.Along with the one who is behind him...and stopping the hidden bystanders from alerting others...and keeping your reiatsu concealed so the other captains don't detect you and come to the scene...and taking all four of your comrades with you (the half-dead ryoka and soul, the two shinigami with no strength or speed, the quincy, and the blonde)...all without raising commotion or alerting others to your location(s).

Even though the strength is the same, the damage is different. The only "impact" in those scans is typical manga blur and flash, accentuated by how much damage it's causing. By your reasoning, Jidanbou is far stronger since his "impacts" are much larger than anything Yoruichi or Grimmjaw do barehanded.Jidanbou's "impacts" are large because he's a gigantic fellow himself. A paper fan will create more breeze than a knife, but the latter will surely inflict more damage. And there's also the issue of reiatsu.

This whole "blur and flash" you're talking about...I don't get it. Whenever an SFX is put there, it is meant to signify something, or at least highlight it.

Secondly, how do you know Soi Fon is weaker than Yammi? There's no comparison between the two. Possibly, Soi Fon could have done the exact same thing, doing the exact same damage, but perhaps injuring herself a little bit more.Retarded argument. The arancar are specifically said to have steel skin, which is immune to the average sword. Also, are you now trying to imply that Soifon has skin that's stronger than Yammi's, let alone Zaraki's?

Finally, the difference is because the *massive injury* was caused by hitting the head and stomach on an unaware opponent, as opposed to a resisting arm. Let a martial artist punch through a brick. Now let them punch another martial artist in the arm, while they're resisting or blocking. The brick will be broken; the opponent's arm will not be broken, at least not to the degree of the brick (i.e. split in half). Now, break the person's arm with a wooden bat. This does not mean wood is harder than brick.Hierro > Shinigami skin. If Yoruichi used the same amount of strength then Soifon should've fared worse than Yammi, regardless of where she got hit. And there should've still been large impacts comparable to Yammi's fight.

Also, Yammi wasn't hit in the stomach; he was propelled using the hand he was reaching out with, just like Ichigo. And Yoruichi also used one hand only, both times.

You need to accept that the espada's hierro is only inferior when compared to those characters of senior captain status. Otherwise you're gonna be claiming plotkai pretty soon.

Urahara says it when he explains how he analyzed Yammi's bala.Page, please?

"Particles" have a mass and are moved by energy. If cero is made of particles and a spirit body is made of particles, then there is no reason a cero should have some impossibly fast speed that is impossible to attain otherwise. Either way, there's no way to say a cero isn't the same type of "energy/spirit particle" as a quincy arrow.The point is the spirit particles are converted into different forms, some of which are more mobile and agile than others. Just because two items share a common ingredient doesn't mean they'll have the same attributes. Sure, cero may not be the fastest thing there is, but it's also not as slow as you make it out to be.

Okay... he blocked it, or at least he shielded himself from part of the force of the cero, which is the same concept as blocking. The fact that he had enough time to fire his own cero and nullify Ulquiorra's cero implies that it is indeed possible to dodge, at least when he is not surprised by the "omg! random dude can do cero" factor. That is, unless Urahara is fast enough to dodge a cero whereas Grimmjaw is not (*unlikely*).Uh...staying in the path of an attack doesn't mean you can dodge it. Grimjow stayed right in the path of both ceros and tried his best to minimize damage inflicted by firing his own and sacrificing an arm. How that translates to his ability to dodge is beyond me.

Blocking means repelling the attack, or at least not attaining any damage from it. Grimjow got hit...both times.

1. She then goes to save the others, or lets Ichigo get the others. Of course, getting the others would be alot easier when she doesn't have to worry about Byakuya hunting her and Rukia.Because every other shinigami will undoubtedly ignore her and Ichigo and Rukia and Hanatarou and Ganju as they run around the whole of SS looking for the others...right?

2. Yoruichi "easily" (apparently not easily, as she needed cicada) outpacing Byakuya hints that she is faster, and that is all it hints at. It doesn't hint that Byakuya can't react to her, as he clearly shows he can. It doesn't hint that she can outpace his significantly faster bankai, or that she is on par with bankai Ichigo. Those theories are all completely speculative and don't have evidence to back them up.The stupidity of this argument is stunning to say the least. You blatantly disregard the fact that she EASILY dodged a sword at the last minute and appeared on the other side of the bridge, leaving Byakuya shocked as to why he didn't land his hit. If she can do that, where is your proof that she can't punch, kick, or cut him when she actually gets serious and doesn't have any handicap on her shoulder?

3. Attacking fast in 1 direction against 1 opponent is different from making fast attacks against millions of "opponents" in every direction, not that Yoruichi was doing thousands of punches and kicks in 2 seconds anyway.She has the speed to move much faster than Byakuya can react to, which she demonstrated against the militia, something that even Ichigo has yet to accomplish.

You fail to realise is that Ichigo slowed down and let Byakuya try to attack him again. If he maintained the same speed he used when he had his sword in on Byakuya's neck, and after he deflected all the petals, Byakuya's super hand-control would've been moot from the very beginning.

4. Senkei sharply increases the attack power. Any small chance she may have of deflecting SKY would be lowered in senkei.Byakuya himself said he doesn't use it omni-directionally and he'd still need to be able to hit Yoruichi with SKY for Senkei to be effective...plus he's gonna have no defense whatsoever to Yoruichi's strikes.

5. Once again, you're assuming your opinion is fact, and then using it to argue. If Byakuya could not react to Yoruichi's movements, he could not follow her on the bridge. He would not be able to appear in front of her at the end of the bridge, and Yoruichi would have no need to use cicada. Since this is not the case, it is CLEAR that he can react to that level of speed.No, I'm not assuming anything. That brief moment where she hopped to the other side of the bridge would've been more than enough to end the little chase as quickly as it started.

[Jay3205]

Actually, it is. My point is that having greater speed doesn't guarantee victory against the slower person who's only a couple feet away from the finish line. Byakuya was further away from Rukia than Gin was, and also had no defense against Shinsou because Ichigo destroyed his sword, which would've definitely improved his chances of survival. If they were the same distance away from Rukia then Byakuya would've definitely made it before Shinsou even cleared half the distance.Fact 1: Byakuya reached Rukia before Shinsou did. Therefore, Byakuya was ahead of Shinsou

Fact 2: Shinsou managed to somehow catch up to him. By logic, if Byakuya was ahead of Shinsou and faster than Shinsou, it would be impossible for it to catch up to him.

If this were not the case, it would mean Shinsou reached Rukia before Byakuya, which is obviously false. Therefore, Gin can control Shinsou to make it extremely fast or slow enough for pre-Zaraki-fight Ichigo to block. Either way, there's no reason to continue talking about shinsou, as it has no relation to Yoruichi or Byakuya.

Ceros, or energy blasts in general, get executed at the speed of light, or somewhere close to it. If ceros were slower than Shinsou then we should (and definitely would) see more frames of their execution than those of Shinsou...which has been the other way around for as far back as I can remember.I stopped reading at "ceros are executed at the speed of light", since that's an utterly ridiculous claim. Last time I checked, no person or attack in Bleach could circle the planet over 5 times in a second.

Aside from the anime, I don't recall any ceros having much time to charge up in the manga, with the exception of Shinji's and Ichigo's hollowised form, along with Grimjow's mega-cero...all of which were undoubtly more powerful than the ones we usually see. And even out of those exceptions, none of them were dodged or shown to be evadable.Ceros always take time to charge. The fact that they gather energy before they shoot, as well as the fact that people can say "oh no! it's a cero" before the blast is executed means it takes time. Sure it's not much time for normal people, but for a characters who have ultra-reflexes and can move dozens of meters in an instant, it's enough time.

Don't forget to include into your statement that the "weighted Yoruichi" you're referring too was not even being serious at that moment, while Byakuya was.

Your comparison of weight to speed is flawed and I don't see the point of trying to make such a ratio so you're better off discarding it. If that logic was valid then Yachiru should be amazingly fast or at least amazingly strong because she tiptoed to the top of a building with Zaraki on her shoulder.

Also, it would be retarded for SS to give a title like "Flash Goddess" to Yoruichi when her speed is mediocre; on the flip side, Byakuya should also have a similar title like "Flash Prince" since his speed is supposedly really close to Yoruichi's...which still wouldn't explain his inability to react at the bridge.How was Yoruichi not serious... or better yet, prove she was any less serious than Byakuya. Byakuya's expression never changes, hence he's serious despite not fighting at his full potential. Yoruichi smiles and jokes, even when she "can't recognize Soi Fon's attacks".

*I'll ignore the weight ratio, since apparently, size has little correlation with strength. Then, Yoruichi's monsterous strength would mean carrying Ichigo had little effect on her speed.

Also, "Flash Goddess" is just the name for being the best at shunpo, or at least very good at it. It doesn't mean she exceeds the next best candidate by a wide margin, and whatever margin she was better by would severely be reduced due to the 100 years of improvement everyone else had. Yoruichi talks about thinking she wouldn't "have to use" that technique against Soi Fon, meaning she was pushed to her limit without using it. Byakuya's "inability to react" is due to thinking he actually made a hit, which is a reasonable assumption considering she fell back *bleeding*.

Uh...staying in the path of an attack doesn't mean you can dodge it. Grimjow stayed right in the path of both ceros and tried his best to minimize damage inflicted by firing his own and sacrificing an arm. How that translates to his ability to dodge is beyond me.

Blocking means repelling the attack, or at least not attaining any damage from it. Grimjow got hit...both times.The fact that he could react means if he were faster (i.e. released and not surprised), it's quite possible he could dodge. Also, blocking doesn't have to be 100% successful to be a "block". He can block part of it, which he did.

Jidanbou's "impacts" are large because he's a gigantic fellow himself. A paper fan will create more breeze than a knife, but the latter will surely inflict more damage. And there's also the issue of reiatsu.

This whole "blur and flash" you're talking about...I don't get it. Whenever an SFX is put there, it is meant to signify something, or at least highlight it.But Jidanbou is far weaker, meaning Yoruichi (or any captain) should make equivalent craters due to their vastly superior strength.

Also the whole "blur and flash" is just that. If an impact is shown when someone gets hit, it just means there's an impact... not that the person is exploding due to some huge force.

Retarded argument. The arancar are specifically said to have steel skin, which is immune to the average sword. Also, are you now trying to imply that Soifon has skin that's stronger than Yammi's, let alone Zaraki's?You misread. I said Soi Fon is stronger, not her skin is stronger. You basically said Yammi is stronger than Soi Fon, implying that Soi Fon could not do to Yammi what Yoruichi did. I said nothing about their skin strength being equal. I said she could likely do the same exact thing, while sustaining slightly more damage.

Hierro > Shinigami skin. If Yoruichi used the same amount of strength then Soifon should've fared worse than Yammi, regardless of where she got hit. And there should've still been large impacts comparable to Yammi's fight.
Actually, no because Soi Fon was actually fighting back. A martial artist can break a brick, but this doesn't mean he's going to break the arm of every human he fights, despite brick being harder than skin and bone. Same thing here.

She has the speed to move much faster than Byakuya can react to, which she demonstrated against the militia, something that even Ichigo has yet to accomplish.

You fail to realise is that Ichigo slowed down and let Byakuya try to attack him again. If he maintained the same speed he used when he had his sword in on Byakuya's neck, and after he deflected all the petals, Byakuya's super hand-control would've been moot from the very beginning.She never displayed a speed Byakuya can't react to. Byakuya didn't react since he was surprised due to cicada, a purposely deceptive technique which Byakuya is also capable of. Also, Ichigo never "accomplished that feat" because he never fought multiple opponents, although he has appeared in multiple places.

Also, Ichigo was slowing down the whole fight. Hence his difficulty to get close to Byakuya a second time, and being equal with Byakuya's speed since the start of senkei.

Byakuya himself said he doesn't use it omni-directionally and he'd still need to be able to hit Yoruichi with SKY for Senkei to be effective...plus he's gonna have no defense whatsoever to Yoruichi's strikes.He never said he *doesn't. He said he'd defeat Ichigo with his two hands, and he's only used senkei twice ever against anybody. He didn't need it in either case.

Also, Byakuya could quite easily hit Yoruichi with SKY, considering his base speed is enough to catch up to her, and since weighted Yoruichi is close to unweighted Yoruichi in speed since by your own admission the strength/weight ratio doesn't hold.

No, I'm not assuming anything. That brief moment where she hopped to the other side of the bridge would've been more than enough to end the little chase as quickly as it started.That brief moment wasn't enough to end anything since Byakuya caught up and appeared in front. Quite equally, the "brief moment" Byakuya appeared in front of her would be more than enough time to cast a short binding spell instead of saying the long-winded "so you thought you could escape with that level of shunpo", making her an immobile target.

And finally, Yoruichi said *NOBODY there could beat Byakuya, while she was there. Going off what's written and only what's written, that includes herself. If you want to introduce unspoken, secret implied meanings, then I could quite equally introduce unspoken implications to disprove any statement about any character ever made by anyone in the manga. For instance, Yoruichi clearly meant "nobody could beat byakuya, except me, Hanatarou, and Ishida"... even though she never said that but somehow implied it. She also implied that Ichigo couldn't win "there" was because getsuga tenshou would hurt Rukia on the bridge, but anywhere else he'd completely own him with it in 1 hit.

[SenpaiRetsu]

@Jay it does make a difference ichigo's weight, Yoruichi even commented that that's the most she could do and still get away from Byakuya

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/120/04/

If not having a person on her shoulder didn't slow her down then why would she say that. in the page before that the said she had gotten ALOT weaker. not just a little. if her a lot weaker with no sword still embarresed Byakuya, how do u figure she'd fare in full shape with her bankai? Don't tell me he wasn't embarressed he wasn't shamed. Ukitake even said "what happened?" and he said "he lost interest" really meaning he wasn't going to try a futile attempt to apprehend her. Supposdely he's all about serving the law no matter what. Ichigo is a drifter and Yoruichi is a defector who has a warrant out for her arrest and he didn't chase them? sounds to me like he knew he had no chance.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/194/08/

look what she did to Yammi's face, that same hit would have knocked byakuya out cold.

[smach]

Fact 1: Byakuya reached Rukia before Shinsou did. Therefore, Byakuya was ahead of Shinsou

Fact 2: Shinsou managed to somehow catch up to him. By logic, if Byakuya was ahead of Shinsou and faster than Shinsou, it would be impossible for it to catch up to him.

If this were not the case, it would mean Shinsou reached Rukia before Byakuya, which is obviously false. Therefore, Gin can control Shinsou to make it extremely fast or slow enough for pre-Zaraki-fight Ichigo to block. Either way, there's no reason to continue talking about shinsou, as it has no relation to Yoruichi or Byakuya.Your conclusion is that Shinsou is faster than Byakuya/cero/shunpo because Byakuya was hit by it. That is a false assumption that doesn't take into consideration that he had a much larger distance to cover than Gin's shikai.

I stopped reading at "ceros are executed at the speed of light", since that's an utterly ridiculous claim. Last time I checked, no person or attack in Bleach could circle the planet over 5 times in a second.Well I don't know exactly how fast light goes but yea that was an exaggeration. But the point still remains that cero moves really fast, and is comparable to lightning speed.

Ceros always take time to charge. The fact that they gather energy before they shoot, as well as the fact that people can say "oh no! it's a cero" before the blast is executed means it takes time. Sure it's not much time for normal people, but for a characters who have ultra-reflexes and can move dozens of meters in an instant, it's enough time.Show me when it is that someone had enough time to say "oh no! it's a cero!" in the manga.

How was Yoruichi not serious... or better yet, prove she was any less serious than Byakuya. Byakuya's expression never changes, hence he's serious despite not fighting at his full potential. Yoruichi smiles and jokes, even when she "can't recognize Soi Fon's attacks".When did Yoruichi get serious? When Suzumebachi was released, as well as the encounter with Yammi and Ulquiorra. She doesn't smile and hop around when she starts taking things seriously. The fight with Soifon was a joke to Yoruichi till when Soifon proved Suzumebachi had improved and her speed had increased, meaning it wasn't some type of trick that confused Yoruichi.

*I'll ignore the weight ratio, since apparently, size has little correlation with strength. Then, Yoruichi's monsterous strength would mean carrying Ichigo had little effect on her speed.If you plan to keep going with it then there's tons of other crap that you could take into consideration, like strength, stamina, and other things I can't even think of right now, which in my opinion isn't worth anyone's time. That's why I think it's stupid to guage speed as a direct dependent of weight.

Also, "Flash Goddess" is just the name for being the best at shunpo, or at least very good at it. It doesn't mean she exceeds the next best candidate by a wide margin, and whatever margin she was better by would severely be reduced due to the 100 years of improvement everyone else had. Yoruichi talks about thinking she wouldn't "have to use" that technique against Soi Fon, meaning she was pushed to her limit without using it. Byakuya's "inability to react" is due to thinking he actually made a hit, which is a reasonable assumption considering she fell back *bleeding*.Yoruichi used shunko against Soifon because the latter chose to utilize it as well.

Regarding Byakuya, I wasn't referring to cicada; I was referring to the first time he swung at her.

The fact that he could react means if he were faster (i.e. released and not surprised), it's quite possible he could dodge. Also, blocking doesn't have to be 100% successful to be a "block". He can block part of it, which he did.And at the end of it all, the point still stands that he couldn't dodge any of them. Case closed.

But Jidanbou is far weaker, meaning Yoruichi (or any captain) should make equivalent craters due to their vastly superior strength.Jidanbou did not make craters; his swings created alot of turbulence, that's all. Unless you're trying to imply that they're comparable to the clashes between Ichigo and Zaraki, or Ichigo and Byakuya, or Ichigo and Grimjow, or Zaraki and Noitora. Reread the chapter(s) if you please.

Also the whole "blur and flash" is just that. If an impact is shown when someone gets hit, it just means there's an impact... not that the person is exploding due to some huge force.Moreover, it means the impact was quite massive or very strong, like in the situations listed above.

You misread. I said Soi Fon is stronger, not her skin is stronger. You basically said Yammi is stronger than Soi Fon, implying that Soi Fon could not do to Yammi what Yoruichi did. I said nothing about their skin strength being equal. I said she could likely do the same exact thing, while sustaining slightly more damage.Dunno if/when I supposedly said that, but my main point is/was that Yammi's skin is stronger than Soifon's so the attacks used on him were definitely stronger than those used on Soifon.

Actually, no because Soi Fon was actually fighting back. A martial artist can break a brick, but this doesn't mean he's going to break the arm of every human he fights, despite brick being harder than skin and bone. Same thing here.Nope, that's just another illogical way to view things. The composition of a brick is not as strong as that of skin; the bond between molecules is not as strong or elastic. Also, Yammi's skin is tough like steel, not feeble like brick...so out goes the whole brick comparison. If you're gonna use a comparison then use steel, because that's what hierro is related to anyways. In which case, steel > human skin.

QUICK NOTE: keep in mind that Yammi also has skin and bone. Also, bricks break apart easily because of their composition; bones stay solid but may get dented if hit with enough force.

She never displayed a speed Byakuya can't react to. Byakuya didn't react since he was surprised due to cicada, a purposely deceptive technique which Byakuya is also capable of. Also, Ichigo never "accomplished that feat" because he never fought multiple opponents, although he has appeared in multiple places.Dude, forget about cicada. I'm talking about the first time he swung at her. Also, cicada's effectiveness requires your ability to keep track of your opponent, and be able to tell when they're about to attack, which you can't do if your opponent keeps disappearing like Ichigo and Yoruichi.

Also, Ichigo was slowing down the whole fight. Hence his difficulty to get close to Byakuya a second time, and being equal with Byakuya's speed since the start of senkei.Which is why you need to quit assuming that Byakuya would somehow land a hit when Yoruichi can already move faster than him at her base speed.

He never said he *doesn't. He said he'd defeat Ichigo with his two hands, and he's only used senkei twice ever against anybody. He didn't need it in either case.Didn't he say that the swords wouldn't all attack at the same time because he only uses Senkei on those he's sworn to kill by his own hands?

Also, Byakuya could quite easily hit Yoruichi with SKY, considering his base speed is enough to catch up to her, and since weighted Yoruichi is close to unweighted Yoruichi in speed since by your own admission the strength/weight ratio doesn't hold.All I said is that your comparison/ratio is retarded and oversimplified.

That brief moment wasn't enough to end anything since Byakuya caught up and appeared in front. Quite equally, the "brief moment" Byakuya appeared in front of her would be more than enough time to cast a short binding spell instead of saying the long-winded "so you thought you could escape with that level of shunpo", making her an immobile target.First off I'd like you to get it into your head chanted kidou doesn't work on fast opponents. Secondly, that was Yoruichi messing around, who could still use cicada effortlessly...and it's also arguable that the whole "AMG nowayz" reaction she had was nothing more than her stunt with cicada because right after that abrupt moment she was on his shoulder smiling as she taunted him back.

And finally, Yoruichi said *NOBODY there could beat Byakuya, while she was there. Going off what's written and only what's written, that includes herself. If you want to introduce unspoken, secret implied meanings, then I could quite equally introduce unspoken implications to disprove any statement about any character ever made by anyone in the manga. For instance, Yoruichi clearly meant "nobody could beat byakuya, except me, Hanatarou, and Ishida"... even though she never said that but somehow implied it. She also implied that Ichigo couldn't win "there" was because getsuga tenshou would hurt Rukia on the bridge, but anywhere else he'd completely own him with it in 1 hit.Retarded, because the question was regarding the people Ichigo went to assist, Yoruichi could've clearly destroyed him on the spot, Ukitake would have to be included as well, and her motive was never to start a fight in the first place. Also, as I said before, let me know if you want to drag this grammar BS anymore so I can know whether I should just start ignoring these posts or pay attention to them.

[KholdStare]

I have just deleted two posts which basically said "Seriously this is still going on? ______ is clearly the winner".

This is considered spam and unless you have something to back your claim up, don't post.

[Jay3205]

Your conclusion is that Shinsou is faster than Byakuya/cero/shunpo because Byakuya was hit by it. That is a false assumption that doesn't take into consideration that he had a much larger distance to cover than Gin's shikai.It doesn't matter the distance. If a car starts off 100 miles behind you but ends up in front of you, you aren't going to catch up to it if you're slower. If Byakuya was a mile away, it wouldn't matter if he ended up in front and was faster. This isn't debatable; learn the physics equation for it if you don't understand.

Well I don't know exactly how fast light goes but yea that was an exaggeration. But the point still remains that cero moves really fast, and is comparable to lightning speed.I don't recall any cero moving over 90,000 miles per hour.

Show me when it is that someone had enough time to say "oh no! it's a cero!" in the manga.http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-236/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch236-10.jpg.php

They don't literally say "oh no! it's a cero", but they clearly speak more than enough, all during which he could be dodging if not for the surprise factor.

When did Yoruichi get serious? When Suzumebachi was released, as well as the encounter with Yammi and Ulquiorra. She doesn't smile and hop around when she starts taking things seriously. The fight with Soifon was a joke to Yoruichi till when Soifon proved Suzumebachi had improved and her speed had increased, meaning it wasn't some type of trick that confused Yoruichi.You assume it was a joke because neither were going all out? Well I guess Byakuya never fought Yoruichi seriously either then, making it a moot point.

Yoruichi used shunko against Soifon because the latter chose to utilize it as well.

Regarding Byakuya, I wasn't referring to cicada; I was referring to the first time he swung at her.The first time he swung at her, he responded perfectly to her dodge by appearing further behind her. Are we reading the same manga?

Dunno if/when I supposedly said that, but my main point is/was that Yammi's skin is stronger than Soifon's so the attacks used on him were definitely stronger than those used on Soifon.There is no connection between Yammi's skin and strength of attack in what you just posted.

Nope, that's just another illogical way to view things. The composition of a brick is not as strong as that of skin; the bond between molecules is not as strong or elastic. Also, Yammi's skin is tough like steel, not feeble like brick...so out goes the whole brick comparison. If you're gonna use a comparison then use steel, because that's what hierro is related to anyways. In which case, steel > human skin.

QUICK NOTE: keep in mind that Yammi also has skin and bone. Also, bricks break apart easily because of their composition; bones stay solid but may get dented if hit with enough force.The composition of a brick is far stronger than that of skin. Sharpen a brick and throw it at your skin, and see what happens. Then throw a piece of skin at a brick. If the brick is damaged, then you are right. Specifically, hardness is the opposite of elasticity, so of course it's not going to be more elastic. Either way, apparently Yammi's hierro doesn't bruise Yoruichi, yet Soi Fon can, so it disproves the "Yoruichi was fighting harder against Yammi" point.

Btw, I haven't heard of many people getting "dented bones".

Which is why you need to quit assuming that Byakuya would somehow land a hit when Yoruichi can already move faster than him at her base speed.I don't know why you responded this way, as I only was talking about Byakuya's bankai, which is faster than he is.

All I said is that your comparison/ratio is retarded and oversimplified.What is "oversimplified" about it? Don't bring up stamina, cause she only used shunpo less than a dozen times, as opposed to her maximum of several hundred. If you aren't going to argue on weight, then you can't make any claims regarding how much faster she is unweighted, throwing out your whole "she's fast enough to dodge a bankai" argument.

First off I'd like you to get it into your head chanted kidou doesn't work on fast opponents. Secondly, that was Yoruichi messing around, who could still use cicada effortlessly...and it's also arguable that the whole "AMG nowayz" reaction she had was nothing more than her stunt with cicada because right after that abrupt moment she was on his shoulder smiling as she taunted him back.First, I'd like you to stop thinking that being fast is a magical shield. If Byakuya can say "you thought you could escape at that level of shunpo", then in the same span of time, he could say "binding art 61: six light rod prison". This is not an assumption; it is a fact. Being fast won't change that fact.

Secondly, you say she's "messing around" when she's obviously running as fast as she can... at her limit. Any more weight/slowness, and she'd get caught, as she said. That is not messing around. I could run from a fight while simultaneously mocking the opponent as well, but I'm not seriously running away.

Thirdly, her "AMG nowayz" reaction doesn't matter. The fact is, she looked like she was hit, which is enough to make Byakuya believe she was hit.

Retarded, because the question was regarding the people Ichigo went to assist, Yoruichi could've clearly destroyed him on the spot, Ukitake would have to be included as well, and her motive was never to start a fight in the first place. Also, as I said before, let me know if you want to drag this grammar BS anymore so I can know whether I should just start ignoring these posts or pay attention to them.Retarded, cause there was no "question" at all. Ichigo thought he had a high chance of living, which Yoruichi shot down by saying NOBODY had a chance of living. NOBODY there. This wording is not vague. It means exactly what it says, and it means only what is written... nothing more. No grammar BS, it's simple word definition. If you want to be more specific, it was "not one person there". You are the one saying it has this hidden meaning which is nowhere written, nor indicated anywhere. There is a line between reading what's written, and selectively adding extra words to modify the story. If Yoruichi could "destroy Byakuya" then the entire mission could be accomplished right there. Yoruichi takes Ganju and runs, Ichigo takes Rukia and flies away, and it would be child's play to sneak into the unguarded 4th division to get the others. Ukitake had plenty of opportunity to intervene and stop Yoruichi, but didn't.

If you want to add unspoken, secret implications, then you could easily make Hanatarou > Shunsui + Ukitake, in which case you are arguing off of "Bleach - smach version" and not that actual story.

[SenpaiRetsu]

It doesn't matter the distance. If a car starts off 100 miles behind you but ends up in front of you, you aren't going to catch up to it if you're slower. If Byakuya was a mile away, it wouldn't matter if he ended up in front and was faster. This isn't debatable; learn the physics equation for it if you don't understand.

I don't recall any cero moving over 90,000 miles per hour.

http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-236/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch236-10.jpg.php

They don't literally say "oh no! it's a cero", but they clearly speak more than enough, all during which he could be dodging if not for the surprise factor.

You assume it was a joke because neither were going all out? Well I guess Byakuya never fought Yoruichi seriously either then, making it a moot point.

The first time he swung at her, he responded perfectly to her dodge by appearing further behind her. Are we reading the same manga?

There is no connection between Yammi's skin and strength of attack in what you just posted.

The composition of a brick is far stronger than that of skin. Sharpen a brick and throw it at your skin, and see what happens. Then throw a piece of skin at a brick. If the brick is damaged, then you are right. Specifically, hardness is the opposite of elasticity, so of course it's not going to be more elastic. Either way, apparently Yammi's hierro doesn't bruise Yoruichi, yet Soi Fon can, so it disproves the "Yoruichi was fighting harder against Yammi" point.

Btw, I haven't heard of many people getting "dented bones".

I don't know why you responded this way, as I only was talking about Byakuya's bankai, which is faster than he is.

What is "oversimplified" about it? Don't bring up stamina, cause she only used shunpo less than a dozen times, as opposed to her maximum of several hundred. If you aren't going to argue on weight, then you can't make any claims regarding how much faster she is unweighted, throwing out your whole "she's fast enough to dodge a bankai" argument.

First, I'd like you to stop thinking that being fast is a magical shield. If Byakuya can say "you thought you could escape at that level of shunpo", then in the same span of time, he could say "binding art 61: six light rod prison". This is not an assumption; it is a fact. Being fast won't change that fact.

Secondly, you say she's "messing around" when she's obviously running as fast as she can... at her limit. Any more weight/slowness, and she'd get caught, as she said. That is not messing around. I could run from a fight while simultaneously mocking the opponent as well, but I'm not seriously running away.

Thirdly, her "AMG nowayz" reaction doesn't matter. The fact is, she looked like she was hit, which is enough to make Byakuya believe she was hit.

Retarded, cause there was no "question" at all. Ichigo thought he had a high chance of living, which Yoruichi shot down by saying NOBODY had a chance of living. NOBODY there. This wording is not vague. It means exactly what it says, and it means only what is written... nothing more. No grammar BS, it's simple word definition. If you want to be more specific, it was "not one person there". You are the one saying it has this hidden meaning which is nowhere written, nor indicated anywhere. There is a line between reading what's written, and selectively adding extra words to modify the story. If Yoruichi could "destroy Byakuya" then the entire mission could be accomplished right there. Yoruichi takes Ganju and runs, Ichigo takes Rukia and flies away, and it would be child's play to sneak into the unguarded 4th division to get the others. Ukitake had plenty of opportunity to intervene and stop Yoruichi, but didn't.

If you want to add unspoken, secret implications, then you could easily make Hanatarou > Shunsui + Ukitake, in which case you are arguing off of "Bleach - smach version" and not that actual story.


@Jay i have to agree that a cero is not nearly as fast as the speed of light or lightening speed even. simply for the fact that a 'Bala" is 20X the speed of a cero. if the cero was even close to light speed then i don't think anything can move 20x light speed. A cero takes time to charge.

[Distained]

How is not having an omnidirectional, ridiculously fast and deadly, defensive and offensive attack not good enough? Yoruichi isn't Aizen, and she isn't Yamamoto. If Yoruichi was faster than bankai Ichigo, then a weighted Yoruichi would still be very far from needing cicada to escape Byakuya.

You obviously haven't carried Ichigo on your shoulders while running before :kamina:

That's based on the assumption that Yoruichi is already multiple times faster, which there isn't support for. The last time I checked, if I am multiple times faster than someone, and I strong enough to make craters with my punches, a bit of extra weight isn't going to let them catch up to me. The only fast thing she's done is escape from Byakuya, while nearly getting caught. If she was multiple times faster, she wouldn't nearly get caught, unless Ichigo somehow is 10x her weight.

Yoruichi is a chick running around with a full grown dude on her back. This is manga, but seriously. I'm sure Renji's top speed is way faster than what it was while carrying Rukia.

1. If her purpose was solely to train Ichigo, why not let Urahara train him instead? There's no point in going from training with Urahara to going to SS just to train more. If she didn't think she'd have enough time beforehand, then her mission obviously wouldn't be to train him even more... it would be to go save Rukia, which is what they actually say.

The execution date was coming up so they actually did have little time for more training. Yoruichi was there to TRAIN them, it's why she trained Chad & Orihime before going and also why she helped Ichigo reach Bankai. Only person she fought was Soi Fong, most likely for personal reasons.

2. "No one" isn't vague when talking about a specific place. "Nobody on this forum speaks 55 languages" isn't going to mean "nobody except me, you, and the other dozen people I secretly implied but don't mention". Similarly, "nobody there (there = bridge) could win" isn't vague. The only clearer way would be to say "nobody there, including you, Ganju, Rukia, and Ukitake's hiding VCs" which is redundant.
3. See #2

"None of us on this bridge has the potential to beat Byakuya." would be less vague. She said no one though and I'm sure some people were excluded from that, like Rukia, Ukitake, etc. It's not like Ukitake was getting ready to turn sides at that point so saying he cant beat Byakuya like it would actually matter makes no sense.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/120/05/

Ukitake was obviously not apart of "No one."

4. Urahara couldn't go. Yoruichi's only reason to go was because Urahara asked. She had nothing to gain from training him, fighting Soi Fon, and possibly getting arrested either, but she still did it.

She did have a reason to fight Soifon, her former subordinate. Could've been to stop her from causing trouble or from getting involved in Ichigo's fight. Maybe even just to see how strong she's gotten, either way she's the only person Yoruichi fought in SS so I think it's safe to say that her purpose there wasn't for fighting.

lolz Yourichi > Shikai Soi Fong? Wait lemme go re-read that chapter.

Nope, all I read was Yourichi running away the entire damn fight, and basically won with shunko. She wasn't doing a good job of running away either, she got hit about 5 times, meaning 5 butterflies on her body, meaning sooner or later Yourichi would've died had she not pulled out Shunko, which she did in a desperate attempt to win.

And if you acn pull out a logical explanation to how Shunko makes Yourichi 10 times stronger which is what a bankai does, pretty sure Bankai Soi Fong > Shunko Yourichi.

If Yourichi has her zanpaktou though, the story changes.

Anything could make someone 10x stronger in bleach. Kenpachi does is just by taking off an eyepatch, Ishida did it by snapping a part of his glove off. My point was Yoruichi wouldn't go into a fight with someone who can become 10x stronger without a trump card of her own.

[smach]

@SenpaiRetsu: but the charging time isn't soo long that anyone could dodge it, and it travels really fast once it's released. Which can't even be compared to Shinsou's frame-by-frame momentum.

Your conclusion is that Shinsou is faster than Byakuya/cero/shunpo because Byakuya was hit by it. That is a false assumption that doesn't take into consideration that he had a much larger distance to cover than Gin's shikai.It doesn't matter the distance. If a car starts off 100 miles behind you but ends up in front of you, you aren't going to catch up to it if you're slower. If Byakuya was a mile away, it wouldn't matter if he ended up in front and was faster. This isn't debatable; learn the physics equation for it if you don't understand.Read what I said. The point is Shinsou isn't as fast as you were making it out to be; so fast that Byakuya couldn't doge it.

I don't recall any cero moving over 90,000 miles per hour.I was referring to Byakuya's kidou, but fine. Ceros are still very fast, which is why we rarely see more than two panels of its charge+release. Once a cero is let loose, it is not that easy to dodge anymore. The charging time is also not that long, unless it's going to be a powerful one. And even when there were powerful ones, nobody was able to dodge. Why? because once it is released, the impact is almost instantaneous...hence why we don't see multiple panels of a cero in motion.

http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-236/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch236-10.jpg.php (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-236/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch236-10.jpg.php)

They don't literally say "oh no! it's a cero", but they clearly speak more than enough, all during which he could be dodging if not for the surprise factor.That is your belief, which you're entitled to have...but still doesn't prove that Grimjow could've dodged instead of, from your perspective, spend valuable time charging up another cero to minimize damage.

When did Yoruichi get serious? When Suzumebachi was released, as well as the encounter with Yammi and Ulquiorra. She doesn't smile and hop around when she starts taking things seriously. The fight with Soifon was a joke to Yoruichi till when Soifon proved Suzumebachi had improved and her speed had increased, meaning it wasn't some type of trick that confused Yoruichi.You assume it was a joke because neither were going all out? Well I guess Byakuya never fought Yoruichi seriously either then, making it a moot point.Reread what I said.

The first time he swung at her, he responded perfectly to her dodge by appearing further behind her. Are we reading the same manga?He would've been finished if Yoruichi was actually fighting and didn't have a body on her back because that split second where she hopped could've been used to mess him up. On the other hand, Byakuya can't hit Yoruichi because she can already cicada or shunpo her way out of it when transporting luggage, so she would destroy him if she actually fights.

There is no connection between Yammi's skin and strength of attack in what you just posted

The composition of a brick is far stronger than that of skin. Sharpen a brick and throw it at your skin, and see what happens. Then throw a piece of skin at a brick. If the brick is damaged, then you are right. Specifically, hardness is the opposite of elasticity, so of course it's not going to be more elastic. Either way, apparently Yammi's hierro doesn't bruise Yoruichi, yet Soi Fon can, so it disproves the "Yoruichi was fighting harder against Yammi" point.

Btw, I haven't heard of many people getting "dented bones".So, what are you saying...Yammi was beat using the same amount of strength that barely bruised Soifon?

Yammi couldn't and didn't punch Yoruichi, so how would he miraculously bruise her?

As for the whole brick crap, martial artists use thin layers of brick because they break easier...for the same reason they only use soft wood boards with age lines on them. Use the same amount of force on a normal human and it'll hurt like a b*tch, but it won't break anything.

And yea, you can get a dent on your bone...or, for the sake of proper wordage, you can get a small crack or fracture or something else that leads to a bone having bumps/indentations from past impacts.

I don't know why you responded this way, as I only was talking about Byakuya's bankai, which is faster than he is.Which is moot when his opponent can move faster than him even with a handicap on her shoulder.

What is "oversimplified" about it? Don't bring up stamina, cause she only used shunpo less than a dozen times, as opposed to her maximum of several hundred. If you aren't going to argue on weight, then you can't make any claims regarding how much faster she is unweighted, throwing out your whole "she's fast enough to dodge a bankai" argument.Fine then. Yoruichi's base speed is more than twice as fast as what she used on the bridge because Ichigo definitely weights more than her.

First, I'd like you to stop thinking that being fast is a magical shield. If Byakuya can say "you thought you could escape at that level of shunpo", then in the same span of time, he could say "binding art 61: six light rod prison". This is not an assumption; it is a fact. Being fast won't change that fact.Until the day I see a fast character get subjected to a chanted kidou in a fast-paced battle, I will rest my case and conclude that chanted kidou is moot.

Also, if Yoruichi could use cicada on him with a body on her back, I doubt dodging a kidou attack would be much of a problem.

Secondly, you say she's "messing around" when she's obviously running as fast as she can... at her limit. Any more weight/slowness, and she'd get caught, as she said. That is not messing around. I could run from a fight while simultaneously mocking the opponent as well, but I'm not seriously running away.She only increased her speed when she went to the roof of the little building.

Thirdly, her "AMG nowayz" reaction doesn't matter. The fact is, she looked like she was hit, which is enough to make Byakuya believe she was hit.And give her the opening to destroy him...which she didn't use but rather landed on his shoulder to piss him off...which according to you goes to show that Byakuya would've killed her had she not picked up Ichigo and left the scene.

Retarded, cause there was no "question" at all. Ichigo thought he had a high chance of living, which Yoruichi shot down by saying NOBODY had a chance of living. NOBODY there. This wording is not vague. It means exactly what it says, and it means only what is written... nothing more. No grammar BS, it's simple word definition. If you want to be more specific, it was "not one person there". You are the one saying it has this hidden meaning which is nowhere written, nor indicated anywhere. There is a line between reading what's written, and selectively adding extra words to modify the story.Why did you only take me back!!? This way Ganju and Hanatarou, and even Rukia may [be] killed!!

Yup, clearly no question there. And yea, Byakuya's so pwnsome that even a senior captain like Ukitake can't take him down; all he can do is grab his arm to make him stop his attack.

If Yoruichi could "destroy Byakuya" then the entire mission could be accomplished right there. Yoruichi takes Ganju and runs, Ichigo takes Rukia and flies away, and it would be child's play to sneak into the unguarded 4th division to get the others. Ukitake had plenty of opportunity to intervene and stop Yoruichi, but didn't.And they leave hanatarou behind..? And Ukitake just sits back and lets them escape? And Chad would miraculously go from being knocked out cold to fully functioning and able to suddenly use shunpo? And Ishida and Orihime would somehow get a text message telling them where to meet the others? And they would all magically go through the gates and back to the real world without anyone noticing them?

If you want to add unspoken, secret implications, then you could easily make Hanatarou > Shunsui + Ukitake, in which case you are arguing off of "Bleach - smach version" and not that actual story.Which is why I actually look at issues from multiple angles instead of being one-dimensional and taking everything word for word. By your logic, Ulquiorra is 101% guaranteed weaker than Urahara and/or Yoruichi because he said "At this point, we'd lose" meaning him and Yammi returned to HM because they're cowards.

[Jay3205]

Read what I said. The point is Shinsou isn't as fast as you were making it out to be; so fast that Byakuya couldn't doge it.I wasn't making it out to be "fast". I was making it out to be "not 20x slower than a cero".

I was referring to Byakuya's kidou, but fine. Ceros are still very fast, which is why we rarely see more than two panels of its charge+release. Once a cero is let loose, it is not that easy to dodge anymore. The charging time is also not that long, unless it's going to be a powerful one. And even when there were powerful ones, nobody was able to dodge. Why? because once it is released, the impact is almost instantaneous...hence why we don't see multiple panels of a cero in motion.The impact isn't "instantaneous", because people like Urahara don't have instantaneous movement to block it. Charging time is effectively part of the time of the attack. Otherwise, Hitsugaya's ultimate attack takes 5 seconds to do instead of the 30 minutes it takes preparing/charging it.

He would've been finished if Yoruichi was actually fighting and didn't have a body on her back because that split second where she hopped could've been used to mess him up. On the other hand, Byakuya can't hit Yoruichi because she can already cicada or shunpo her way out of it when transporting luggage, so she would destroy him if she actually fights.She can't use cicada if he blasted the whole bridge, which he had ample time to use. That "quick second" of jumping doesn't show anything, as he had a quick second of appearing in front of her.

So, what are you saying...Yammi was beat using the same amount of strength that barely bruised Soifon?

As for the whole brick crap, martial artists use thin layers of brick because they break easier...for the same reason they only use soft wood boards with age lines on them. Use the same amount of force on a normal human and it'll hurt like a b*tch, but it won't break anything.

And yea, you can get a dent on your bone...or, for the sake of proper wordage, you can get a small crack or fracture or something else that leads to a bone having bumps/indentations from past impacts.
Yes, Yammi was beat with the same amount of strength that barely bruised Soifon. Yoruichi without shunko and without a sword is very very close to equal with Soi Fon without sword/shunko.

And the bricks are no thinner the layer of skin on your arm, so the comparison holds.

Fine then. Yoruichi's base speed is more than twice as fast as what she used on the bridge because Ichigo definitely weights more than her.A 2x speed increase isn't going to save her from a bankai due to it's omnidirectional nature. That's like saying you're going to outrun a group of 1000 people who surrounded, despite you being 2x as fast as any individual, although in Byakuya's case the blades are likely faster.

Until the day I see a fast character get subjected to a chanted kidou in a fast-paced battle, I will rest my case and conclude that chanted kidou is moot.

Also, if Yoruichi could use cicada on him with a body on her back, I doubt dodging a kidou attack would be much of a problem.
It's not moot... it's a a plain and obvious fact which you're ignoring. Please explain to me what magical rule stopped Byakuya from saying "binding art 61" instead of that drawn out phrase that he said. Please explain what magical rule prevented him from just cutting her down instead of saying that drawn out phrase. Please explain how you can dodge something when there is no place to dodge to. A fast fish in a barrel can't dodge a missile launcher.

She only increased her speed when she went to the roof of the little building.Proof? No proof == can't say it happened.

Why did you only take me back!!? This way Ganju and Hanatarou, and even Rukia may [be] killed!!

Yup, clearly no question there. And yea, Byakuya's so pwnsome that even a senior captain like Ukitake can't take him down; all he can do is grab his arm to make him stop his attack.Ok. It's a question... doesn't change the result. And yea, Byakuya's so pwnsome that he can beat a captain who nearly coughed up a lung and let a weak hollow get away... the same captain who nearly coughed up a lung just from getting in a heated conversation.

And they leave hanatarou behind..? And Ukitake just sits back and lets them escape? And Chad would miraculously go from being knocked out cold to fully functioning and able to suddenly use shunpo? And Ishida and Orihime would somehow get a text message telling them where to meet the others? And they would all magically go through the gates and back to the real world without anyone noticing them?
Oh, I forgot about Hanatarou. Yoruichi could take him too, considering she wouldn't have Byakuya chasing her down, and Ukitake clearly wasn't going to. Chad doesn't need to shunpo. There's nobody that can stop him aside from a captain, which wouldn't be a problem considering the uber-fast Yoruichi and Ichigo would be there to defend. And Ishida and Orihime could surely be found, considering Yoruichi is uberly-fast as lightning and Ichigo has his "see spirit threads that lead to anyone he knows" ability. They'd get back through the gate the same way they would have if Aizen did not reappear.

Which is why I actually look at issues from multiple angles instead of being one-dimensional and taking everything word for word. By your logic, Ulquiorra is 101% guaranteed weaker than Urahara and/or Yoruichi because he said "At this point, we'd lose" meaning him and Yammi returned to HM because they're cowards.First of all, there is a difference between "multiple angles" and "inserting non-existant words multiple times to support a theory". I guess my "multiple angle" would be "Yamaji said Ukitake & Shunsui had the best teamwork of any of their peers... excluding every past vaizard, Hanatarou, Unohana, Zaraki and Yachiru, and Ikkaku". Even though that was never said, Hanatarou could theoretically 1-shot a captain with his ability, so it must be true. There's no difference in between your "angle" and this "angle"; both use non-existant support, so they're both equally valid "angles".

Also, Ulquiorra said Yammi could not win. However, since this statement is disputed, and many sources seem to use the same scans, I will get a new translation from a third party on a non-Bleach related forum, so the result should be an accurate, non-biased translation. I'll post the link soon if/when they answer and edit this post (or put it in my next post).

[smach]

I wasn't making it out to be "fast". I was making it out to be "not 20x slower than a cero".It's still significantly slower, hence Hitsugaya managing to dodge Shinsou and Matsumoto intercepting, while bankai Ichigo and Grimjow are yet to evade any cero. Hence cero covering large distances in one frame while Shinsou takes multiple frames to cover -30ft.

The impact isn't "instantaneous", because people like Urahara don't have instantaneous movement to block it. Charging time is effectively part of the time of the attack. Otherwise, Hitsugaya's ultimate attack takes 5 seconds to do instead of the 30 minutes it takes preparing/charging it.It is instantaneous to other characters, Urahara is an exception because he's the only one we've seen so far to dodge a really fast attack, and to intercept a cero before it even covered ten feet. Maybe Yoruichi could've dodged the same attack if she didn't need to cater for Ichigo and Orihime.

How does Hitsugaya even relate to the issue at hand? Cero charges and releases faster than most can even react to, so how is it suddenly comparable to an attack that takes more than half a minute to initiate?

She can't use cicada if he blasted the whole bridge, which he had ample time to use. That "quick second" of jumping doesn't show anything, as he had a quick second of appearing in front of her.Now that's just illogical. Is this "blast" some form of omnidirectional attack like a bomb filled with sharp objects exploding? You seem to be forgetting that she can get behind him again; she's not only limited to staying in front of him, you know. Just because she uses cicada doesn't mean she has to stay in the path of his godly blast.

That quick second of jumping shows that she could've destroyed him instead of going to the other side of the bridge. It's no different from Ichigo going from one side of the bridge to having his sword right on Byakuya's neck. Just face it, both opponents could've finished him if they wanted to.

Yes, Yammi was beat with the same amount of strength that barely bruised Soifon. Yoruichi without shunko and without a sword is very very close to equal with Soi Fon without sword/shunko.Speedwise, possibly. Strength...that's a different issue altogether.

And the bricks are no thinner the layer of skin on your arm, so the comparison holds.Watevz...iron skin =/= bricks

A 2x speed increase isn't going to save her from a bankai due to it's omnidirectional nature. That's like saying you're going to outrun a group of 1000 people who surrounded, despite you being 2x as fast as any individual, although in Byakuya's case the blades are likely faster.Keyword being BASE speed. As in, joking around speed. As in, not even being serious speed. As in, Byakuya can catch up to my BASE speed when I have weight on me but he can't do jack when I turn it up a notch with this luggage on me or if I use my BASE speed without this carcass hanging over my shoulder.

It's not moot... it's a a plain and obvious fact which you're ignoring. Please explain to me what magical rule stopped Byakuya from saying "binding art 61" instead of that drawn out phrase that he said. Please explain what magical rule prevented him from just cutting her down instead of saying that drawn out phrase. Please explain how you can dodge something when there is no place to dodge to. A fast fish in a barrel can't dodge a missile launcher.On the contrary, prove to me that some part of Byakuya's little dominance masquerade was not the effect of cicada like it was for Zomari.

Proof? No proof == can't say it happened.Proof? Byakuya quit trying, and Yoruichi completely disappeared from everyone's vision, including Ukitake.

Ok. It's a question... doesn't change the result. And yea, Byakuya's so pwnsome that he can beat a captain who nearly coughed up a lung and let a weak hollow get away... the same captain who nearly coughed up a lung just from getting in a heated conversation.Yup...the same captain who could run all the way from his quarters to the execution hill with a thick life-size plank of wood on him. The same captain who was in a heated battle against the megaduce of all shinigami, from the moment he left the bridge to the time when Tenteikura was used to inform people of Aizen's betrayal.

Oh, I forgot about Hanatarou. Yoruichi could take him too, considering she wouldn't have Byakuya chasing her down, and Ukitake clearly wasn't going to. Chad doesn't need to shunpo. There's nobody that can stop him aside from a captain, which wouldn't be a problem considering the uber-fast Yoruichi and Ichigo would be there to defend. And Ishida and Orihime could surely be found, considering Yoruichi is uberly-fast as lightning and Ichigo has his "see spirit threads that lead to anyone he knows" ability. They'd get back through the gate the same way they would have if Aizen did not reappear.So they would run to the gates and go back home, with Chad and Ichigo still having severe injuries...and Yoruichi would search the whole of SS looking for Ishida and Orihime because she won't be getting out of breath after taking thousands of steps around the whole of SS, and would still manage to connect with Ichigo and Chad...who will undoubteldly wait in the same location without attracting strong individuals...and they'll hop over the wall and go right through the barrier with no problem. Oh and lets not forget about good'ol Ganju whose unconsious...surely Ichigo, Chad, or Yoruichi should and would be able to carry him as well, while causing commotion as they try to get to the exit when they're right smack in the center of SS.

First of all, there is a difference between "multiple angles" and "inserting non-existant words multiple times to support a theory". I guess my "multiple angle" would be "Yamaji said Ukitake & Shunsui had the best teamwork of any of their peers... excluding every past vaizard, Hanatarou, Unohana, Zaraki and Yachiru, and Ikkaku". Even though that was never said, Hanatarou could theoretically 1-shot a captain with his ability, so it must be true. There's no difference in between your "angle" and this "angle"; both use non-existant support, so they're both equally valid "angles".My bad then...I don't get why I even thought that being much faster and stronger than your opponent would guarantee victory against them.

Also, Ulquiorra said Yammi could not win. However, since this statement is disputed, and many sources seem to use the same scans, I will get a new translation from a third party on a non-Bleach related forum, so the result should be an accurate, non-biased translation. I'll post the link soon if/when they answer and edit this post (or put it in my next post).IMO Ju-Ni was right on the spot: "At your level, it is impossible to win, no matter how much you try"

But sure...ask someone else about it.

[Esca]

To end the Cero argument, a Bala breaks the sound barrier, since Grimmjow has and he was slower(?), so a Cero must 20x slower than that. Done? Done.

My apologies, Khold, but nothing else really needs to be said about this.

[Jay3205]

It's still significantly slower, hence Hitsugaya managing to dodge Shinsou and Matsumoto intercepting, while bankai Ichigo and Grimjow are yet to evade any cero. Hence cero covering large distances in one frame while Shinsou takes multiple frames to cover -30ft.Ichigo have yet to see a cero that they weren't surprised by, fired at point blank, or tried to overpower.

It is instantaneous to other characters, Urahara is an exception because he's the only one we've seen so far to dodge a really fast attack, and to intercept a cero before it even covered ten feet. Maybe Yoruichi could've dodged the same attack if she didn't need to cater for Ichigo and Orihime.

How does Hitsugaya even relate to the issue at hand? Cero charges and releases faster than most can even react to, so how is it suddenly comparable to an attack that takes more than half a minute to initiate?It isn't instantaneous, unless Urahara is significantly faster than Yoruichi or can teleport, making the whole "flash god" title pointless.

Also, the point is that charge time is part of the attack. Whenever cero charges, people have time to notice it/make comments/stare at it with mouth open expression. It takes more time to say "impossible... cero" than it takes to shunpo, meaning it's dodgeable if they didn't spend time gawking at it and talking.

Keyword being BASE speed. As in, joking around speed. As in, not even being serious speed. As in, Byakuya can catch up to my BASE speed when I have weight on me but he can't do jack when I turn it up a notch with this luggage on me or if I use my BASE speed without this carcass hanging over my shoulder.Prove that she was "joking" around. She said that 1 person was her limit to get away. If she moved any slower, then she'd get caught, meaning she isn't "joking" by running for her life. Your claim is completely unsubstantiated. I could similarly say "Byakuya was joking more than Yoruichi... hence his inability to catch up. You just can't tell he's joking cause he never smiles or makes a joke. If he did his 'non-joking' speed he would win".

Proof? Byakuya quit trying, and Yoruichi completely disappeared from everyone's vision, including Ukitake.Byakuya quit trying, but that doesn't mean she got any faster. It means she's on a roof, and even if he can *almost* catch up, *almost* catching up will never catch her, meaning it's pointless. Also, she never disappeared from everyone's vision... that's just another random claim.

Yup...the same captain who could run all the way from his quarters to the execution hill with a thick life-size plank of wood on him. The same captain who was in a heated battle against the megaduce of all shinigami, from the moment he left the bridge to the time when Tenteikura was used to inform people of Aizen's betrayal.Yeah, cause he wasn't keeling over and spitting up blood. The same captain who fought a captain who did not seem to try to kill him nor use his full power would probably try to avoid a fight until he can't any more.

So they would run to the gates and go back home, with Chad and Ichigo still having severe injuries...and Yoruichi would search the whole of SS looking for Ishida and Orihime because she won't be getting out of breath after taking thousands of steps around the whole of SS, and would still manage to connect with Ichigo and Chad...who will undoubteldly wait in the same location without attracting strong individuals...and they'll hop over the wall and go right through the barrier with no problem. Oh and lets not forget about good'ol Ganju whose unconsious...surely Ichigo, Chad, or Yoruichi should and would be able to carry him as well, while causing commotion as they try to get to the exit when they're right smack in the center of SS.They'd use whatever plans they previously had to get back. Also, Ichigo's injuries weren't severe, unless severe means able to fly around and counter Byakuya's shunpo. Chad was already tended to by 4th division, so he wouldn't be dying. Yoruichi doesn't need to use flash steps to look for Ishida or Orihime, as there would be no need to rush at all, unless she's hiding from no-name guards. Ganju and Hanatarou wouldn't need help, since Ukitake wouldn't let them die. Ichigo could wait in the cave for 3 days, like he already did during his bankai training. If Aizen did not come back, that's basically what they'd be doing. But if you have a better idea of their escape plan (one where they escape, nobody is injured at all, they avoid every captain, Ichigo still gains bankai, and doesn't rely on unknown factors like Aizen or Ukitake's unexpected help), then tell it.

My bad then...I don't get why I even thought that being much faster and stronger than your opponent would guarantee victory against them.
That's like saying "I don't get why a fast, strong martial artist would lose to a guy with a machine gun from 50 ft away... he's stronger and faster!" Bankai changes everything.

IMO Ju-Ni was right on the spot: "At your level, it is impossible to win, no matter how much you try"

But sure...ask someone else about it.And nowhere does it say Ulquiorra losing... especially when he directly implies he wouldn't afterwords.

Here's what my theory assumes
1. Nobody on the bridge could win... as stated multiple times.
2. Yoruichi ran since she couldn't beat Byakuya.
3. She trained Ichigo since Ichigo might be able to beat Byakuya... as stated.
4. The purpose of going to SS was to save Rukia. Hence, if she has an opportunity to easily do it, she won't pass it up.

Here's what your theory assumes
1. Nobody on the bridge could win... except the hidden implication of Yoruichi and Ukitake.
2. Yoruichi ran from Byakuya, despite being able to illegedly "destroy" him in 2 moves and save Rukia. As stated, Ganju & Hanatarou would not be harmed further. Then again, it's not like they went to SS to actually save Rukia...
3. Yoruichi said only Ichigo could win... except the hidden implication of herself.
4. It is somehow a better idea to run from an "easily-destroyable" opponent than to risk fighting 5+ superior ones later.
5. Yoruichi was joking the whole time w/ Byakuya, despite saying she was operating at her limit.
6. Yoruichi was joking with Soi Fon, despite risking a 1-hit death, and admitting she HAD TO use shunko.
7. Yoruichi disappeared from sight, despite having the opponents follow her clearly.
8. Somehow, it's ok to treat "angles" with no written support to be as equally valid as the actual writing on the pages.

[Esca]

The purpose of going to SS was to save Rukia. Hence, if she has an opportunity to easily do it, she won't pass it up.

1 thing. How would she do it (and escape SS)? And if she DID do it, she'd be abandoning everyone else there, including Ichigo's brigade, Hanataro, and Whatshisface, who would probably be imprisoned and captured or executed as punishment. Yoruichi would succeed (if she managed to leave, which she couldn't), but rack up quite the body count.

[Jay3205]

^^ How would they escape escape if Aizen had not come back and Ukitake/Shunsui didn't help? Both factors were unforseen, they couldn't have worked them into their plans. They are extremely lucky it worked out like it did, since even if Yoruichi purposely spared Byakuya, and Ichigo beat Byakuya, they'd have to deal with all the other captains, and there would be no way to save everyone else.

[Esca]

^^ How would they escape escape if Aizen had not come back and Ukitake/Shunsui didn't help? Both factors were unforseen, they couldn't have worked them into their plans. They are extremely lucky it worked out like it did, since even if Yoruichi purposely spared Byakuya, and Ichigo beat Byakuya, they'd have to deal with all the other captains, and there would be no way to save everyone else.

I'm beginning to think, due to the Pendulum Chapters, that Urahara knew this would happen, or something along this line. Concerning Shunsui and Ukitake, there could have been contact with Yoruichi since they WERE using an item that was the Shihouin's to destroy Souhaku.

[Chi]

Here's what my theory assumes
1. Nobody on the bridge could win... as stated multiple times.
2. Yoruichi ran since she couldn't beat Byakuya.
3. She trained Ichigo since Ichigo might be able to beat Byakuya... as stated.
4. The purpose of going to SS was to save Rukia. Hence, if she has an opportunity to easily do it, she won't pass it up.

The correct translation is that: None of you back there could beat Byakuya!!! Ukitake and Yorouichi would clearly not apply. She meant Ganju, Hanatouru, Rukia or Ichigo couldn't beat Byakuya
First she didn't run away, it was a strategic withdrawl
The beating byakuya recieved wasnt' one of power as much as it was about destroying his resolve to want to kill his own sister.
The purpose was to save rukia and to try and keep the Hougokyou out of Aizen's hands.

Here's what your theory assumes
1. Nobody on the bridge could win... except the hidden implication of Yoruichi and Ukitake.
2. Yoruichi ran from Byakuya, despite being able to illegedly "destroy" him in 2 moves and save Rukia. As stated, Ganju & Hanatarou would not be harmed further. Then again, it's not like they went to SS to actually save Rukia...
3. Yoruichi said only Ichigo could win... except the hidden implication of herself.
4. It is somehow a better idea to run from an "easily-destroyable" opponent than to risk fighting 5+ superior ones later.
5. Yoruichi was joking the whole time w/ Byakuya, despite saying she was operating at her limit.
6. Yoruichi was joking with Soi Fon, despite risking a 1-hit death, and admitting she HAD TO use shunko.
7. Yoruichi disappeared from sight, despite having the opponents follow her clearly.
8. Somehow, it's ok to treat "angles" with no written support to be as equally valid as the actual writing on the pages.

It's not hidden, you really think Ukitake would lose to Byakuya despite having a 1000+ years experience on him and still not being anywhere near reaching his limit while Byakuya is close to maximizing his limit.
She left byakuya because Ichigo had to be the one to defeat him, it was his fight.
Only Ichigo could defeat Byakuya's resolve to kill his sister, not power wise! what good would a defeat at the hands of Ukitake serve??
Well as I recall she didn't have to fight 5+ superiors later on either, plus all the charges against her am sure if they sensed her reiatsu fighting byakuya it would have alerted other Captains
Yeah its called showing off!!! She didn't have to Ciada either but she did it as a way of showing their difference in power.
Yeah not joking but taking her lightly, but the min they got serious Soi Fong couldn't even get close enough to strike again
HUH???
Except there was something lost in the translation, i provided the correct one so many time but you insist upon ignoring it.

Because according to what you believe a 2000 year old High Ranking Capt (Ukitake) is weaker then a mid tier one thats been there less then 50-60 years(byakuya). And a former capt (Yorouichi) which was acknowledged as an equal by one higher ranking capt (shunsui) is weaker then that mid tier capt (byakuya). Which is more believable???

[Jay3205]

1. The correct translation is that: None of you back there could beat Byakuya!!! Ukitake and Yorouichi would clearly not apply. She meant Ganju, Hanatouru, Rukia or Ichigo couldn't beat Byakuya
2. First she didn't run away, it was a strategic withdrawl
3. The beating byakuya recieved wasnt' one of power as much as it was about destroying his resolve to want to kill his own sister.
4. The purpose was to save rukia and to try and keep the Hougokyou out of Aizen's hands.
1. None of "you" is not said. The literal English equivalents would be "not one person", which is the same as "nobody", not "none of you".
2. It doesn't make much sense to strategically withdraw if the opponent can be beaten in 2 hits.
3. Ok, but it doesn't really make sense to leave Rukia in a soon-to-be-executed state if she could immediately prevent it.
4. Either way, it's saving Rukia.

1. It's not hidden, you really think Ukitake would lose to Byakuya despite having a 1000+ years experience on him and still not being anywhere near reaching his limit while Byakuya is close to maximizing his limit.
2. She left byakuya because Ichigo had to be the one to defeat him, it was his fight.
3. Only Ichigo could defeat Byakuya's resolve to kill his sister, not power wise! what good would a defeat at the hands of Ukitake serve??
4. Well as I recall she didn't have to fight 5+ superiors later on either, plus all the charges against her am sure if they sensed her reiatsu fighting byakuya it would have alerted other Captains
5. Yeah its called showing off!!! She didn't have to Ciada either but she did it as a way of showing their difference in power.
6. Yeah not joking but taking her lightly, but the min they got serious Soi Fong couldn't even get close enough to strike again
7. HUH???
8. Except there was something lost in the translation, i provided the correct one so many time but you insist upon ignoring it.
1. How is Ukitake not "near his limit" and Byakuya "maximizing" his? Even if Ukitake were excluded, that in no way means Yoruichi is.
2. Ok, but that doesn't excuse "not 1 person there" had a chance of winning.
3. It wasn't Yoruichi's goal to stop Byakuya's resolve. In fact, her goal was apparently to get the hougyoku, which was sitting less than 5 feet from her.
4. She didn't have to fight 5+ captains because two fought Yamaji, Unohana and Hitsugaya decided to investigate Aizen, Tousen and Komamura fought the recently-healed Zaraki, and Gin was with Aizen. None of that can be predicted so accurately 100 years beforehand and incorporated into her plan.
5. I suppose it could be, but considering Yoruichi was at her 1-person limit, I doubt she had any room to show off and still save Ichigo. It seems somewhat similar to Byakuya's situation against the 7th espada.
6. Soi Fon's shunko is far less powerful than Yoruichi's, so of course a direct punch/kick isn't going to work on someone who is faster, stronger, and knows the improved versions of the same techniques.
7. It was said that Yoruichi "disappeared from sight", when it is evident that Byakuya clearly followed her movements.
8. There is nothing "lost in translation"... I'm providing the literal word-for-word equivalent by directly translating it myself. Ask someone else to give you a literal, accurate-as possible translation, and it will be the same as what I gave.

[Chi]

Kuchiki Byakuya
strength: 90
defense: 80
mobility: 90
kidoh: 90
intellect: 90
physical strength: 70
total: 510

Ukitake Juushiro
strength: 90
defense: 90
mobility: 70
kidoh: 100
intellect: 100
physical strength: 40
total: 490


That's the shinigami progress Byakuya is close to his maximum then Ukitake. I don't have stats on Yourouichi but this is about current gotei captains. And Ukitake has had more time so the difference in their abilities must be that varied.

Edit: Furthermore, the info i found was on the Manga Helpers website that Smach had provided pages and pages ago. I don't really want to look it up. But according to them, Yorouichi and Ukitake wasn't included in her statement.

Edit Edit: @esca: the fact that Ukitake is so old and no where near his maximum limit indicates he's far superior to Ukitake.

Edit edit edit: @Jay; it might have been space cat or one of the other translators I don't remember

[Esca]

Everyone has different maximums and limits, just thought I'd state that before something erupts/begins concerning the aforementioned fact.

[Jay3205]

That's the shinigami progress Byakuya is close to his maximum then Ukitake. I don't have stats on Yourouichi but this is about current gotei captains. And Ukitake has had more time so the difference in their abilities must be that varied.

Edit: Furthermore, the info i found was on the Manga Helpers website that Smach had provided pages and pages ago. I don't really want to look it up. But according to them, Yorouichi and Ukitake wasn't included in her statement.Nowhere does it say thats shinigami progress/potential. If a chart has combat ability/fighting power written above it, it means combat ability. I've seen charts just like that (even in Shonen Jump) that referred to a character's stats, and it didn't mean percent of full potential.

If it was potential, then there are 2 options:
1) Yamamoto isn't getting stronger, yet has about 40% potential of his physical strength. However, unless he's going to muscle up (highly unlikely at that age, and considering his speed is so high), it means he's now at 100% of his physical strength (which contradicts with the 40% written on the page).

2) Yamamo's 40% refers to his prime/youthful strength, and he only has 40% of that now and may not ever get his prime strength again. Then similarly, Ukitake could only have 40% of his strength, and may never get higher due to age/sickness.

Either way, it seems like a contradiction, or that stat doesn't actually reflect how much more they can grow. If it is a percent, then Ukitake's potential is not related to Byakuya's, so Byakuya's 1% could be Ukitake's 70% or vice versa, making any percentage useless for arguing who's superior. Also, I don't know what info you're referring to.

[smach]

Ichigo have yet to see a cero that they weren't surprised by, fired at point blank, or tried to overpower.Now you're really overrating this whole surprise factor. If the surprise factor is so great then people should die the minute they start to fight, because you can't expect or predict your opponents movements. Everyone would be like AMG, he just took out his sword! AMG, the sword went into the ground! AMG, theres countless gigantic swords all over the place! AMG, they just scattered into million of petals! AMG, I'm seeing petals!

Stop putting this whole surprise factor BS on a freaking pedastool. Even Ichigo was surprised when Byakuya first used his shikai and bankai on him, yet that didn't stop him from picking up his sword and going after Byakuya. This whole surprise factor issue is being made out to seem like the only thing that can make a shunpo-capable person get hit by a cero, whereas Hitsugaya can be shocked by a sword elongating itself while millimeters away form his eye, yet still manage to evade the hit.

It isn't instantaneous, unless Urahara is significantly faster than Yoruichi or can teleport, making the whole "flash god" title pointless.He wasn't even a captain for +50yrs and he's not the type to show off his abilities. Plus, like I've said more than once, there's the possibility that Yoruichi failed to dodge because of those she had to care for.

Also, reread what you just quoted. The above was CLEARLY stated in the reply you just quioted, but it seems to me like you're just ignoring things I say now.

Also, the point is that charge time is part of the attack. Whenever cero charges, people have time to notice it/make comments/stare at it with mouth open expression. It takes more time to say "impossible... cero" than it takes to shunpo, meaning it's dodgeable if they didn't spend time gawking at it and talking.Jeez...how many times have I told you to show proof that normal ceros leave people with enough time to say something? Every damn time I ask you to do so, it's almost as if that specific part of my post miraculously disappears from your replies. If you can't back up your claim then just drop it already.

If cero were as slow as implied then Yoruichi should be able to dodge it while carrying Orihime, the same way she dodged Byakuya's sword when it was right in front of her face.

Prove that she was "joking" around. She said that 1 person was her limit to get away. If she moved any slower, then she'd get caught, meaning she isn't "joking" by running for her life. Your claim is completely unsubstantiated. I could similarly say "Byakuya was joking more than Yoruichi... hence his inability to catch up. You just can't tell he's joking cause he never smiles or makes a joke. If he did his 'non-joking' speed he would win".

Byakuya quit trying, but that doesn't mean she got any faster. It means she's on a roof, and even if he can *almost* catch up, *almost* catching up will never catch her, meaning it's pointless. Also, she never disappeared from everyone's vision... that's just another random claim.If Byakuya's speed is so uber that he can catch up to Yoruichi, and Yoruichi didn't increase her speed when she went to the roof, I can't find the reason why we didn't see her shunpo away, nor do I see the point of Byakuya quitting when he could simply follow her all the way and kill two birds with one stone. After all, just because I'm "only a little bit faster" doesn't mean you can't react to my movements, or at least stay on my tail till I stop, right?

And you're still disregarding the fact that she had more than one opportunity to kill him, but simply never took it.

Yeah, cause he wasn't keeling over and spitting up blood. The same captain who fought a captain who did not seem to try to kill him nor use his full power would probably try to avoid a fight until he can't any more.Huh? Are you referring to Yamamoto? As in, the latter was going easy on him, so he wasn't caughing up blood..? That makes as much sense as saying that Yammi's health/stamina wouldn't go down if Urahara doesn't release his bankai and use every trump card he's got.

They'd use whatever plans they previously had to get back. Also, Ichigo's injuries weren't severe, unless severe means able to fly around and counter Byakuya's shunpo. Chad was already tended to by 4th division, so he wouldn't be dying. Yoruichi doesn't need to use flash steps to look for Ishida or Orihime, as there would be no need to rush at all, unless she's hiding from no-name guards. Ganju and Hanatarou wouldn't need help, since Ukitake wouldn't let them die. Ichigo could wait in the cave for 3 d