All captains are not created equal [Archive]

Houdenji

01-23-2007, 11:06 PM

I get the distinct feeling that in bleach even within the captains there are some major power diferences, or at least things are not as they seem. Let me elaborate.

Most people would like to think that Kenpachi is one of the strongest captains... I happen to disagree to a large extent. I think he's probably in the mid range of captain power, definitely not bottom, but not the highest by any means.

Judging from the encounters we have seen so far with bleach characters, and what we know of the captains, we can see that Ichigo was by no means more powerful than all the captains when he came to save rukia. However there are some isolated groups of encounters that make things difficult to judge power between them, but lets see what we can do.

First we have Ichigo's fights, Kenpachi and Byakuya are here. Ichigo was able to defeat Kenpachi before even learning to flash step. While Kenpachi didn't go all out from the beginning, he did end at full power for the last strike which was more or less a draw. At this level Ichigo would have been pounded by Byakuya. it wasn't until after achieving bankai that he could fight on equal footing with byakuya. I think its safe to say that Byakuya > Kenpachi...

We also know from Kenpachi's fights that he put the hurt on Komamura and Tousen. Even tho we really didn't get a chance to see Komamura's bankai in action, I still consider Komamura and Tousen to be the weakest of the captains.

Hitsugaya and Ichimaru, the single fight they had seemed to put Hitsugaya on top. Had there been no interference, I believe Hitsugaya WOULD have killed Ichimaru. Also we see how easily Hitsugaya does away with one of the higher level Bounto (anime series only) that even the other captains had at least some kind of trouble with the others. Ichigo also had issues with this particular foe. I would easily put Hitsugaya on the same tier as Byakuya and Ichimaru somewhere close to, but probably behind, Kenpachi.

Mayuri is a loner. His only fights have been with Ishida who had some unknown amount of extra power from breaking the glove, so we can't really say where he compares there. And his fight with the Bounto (anime series again) also seemed rather inconclusive in measuring his power. What we do know is that his Zanpakuto is very powerful, and his adaptations and awareness of surroundings is pretty stinking high. If i HAD to place him somewhere, itd be just above Kenpachi, but there's no way to tell for certain.

Yamamoto, Ukitake, and Kyoraku are ahead of the other Shinigami captains. I don't think anybody doubts that Yamamoto is, probably, by far the most powerful. Ukitake and Kyoraku are his oldest and most experienced captains. They have both been captains for, I think, 2000+ years. Most other captains have only been so for what seems to be less than 200 years each from what we know. A few captains we don't know enough history on to tell. But we do know that Ukitake and Kyoraku are Yamamoto's oldest captains, and that's got to count for something. The long incantations on their three Zanpakuto imply, from a literary standpoint, a more powerful Zanpakuto than most. Hitsugaya's is also a bit longer than most. I think if we ever do see them actually fighting, They will blow away pretty much anyone. Even though Ukitake has bad health, according to Yamamoto, he's always been in that state meaning he has achieved 2000+ years of captain despite his frailty. Tho for that reason I am inclined to think Kyoraku is stronger, even if by a little bit.

Three more loners...

Soi Fong is another loner, but her flash skills are on par with Yoruichi, even if she does lose the technique battle in the end. I would also put Soi Fong ahead of Kenpachi... sorry.

Aizen is obviously very very powerful. Although even with his power, I wouldn't put him above Yamamoto, else he probably would have destroyed everything already, he knew he couldn't take everyone as he was. But im sure he's probably above Ukitake and Kyoraku.

And lastly theres Unohana who probably has a low fighting power, but whos to say (or care).

... So if i HAD to put the captains from the begining of the series in order... it would go something like this:

1. Yamamoto

2. Aizen

3. Kyoraku
4. Ukitake

5. Hitsugaya
6. Byakuya
7. Soi Fong

8. Mayuri
9. Kenpachi
10. Ichimaru

11. Tousen
12. Komamura

13. Unohana

(double spacing indicates larger gaps in power)

Now this is debateable on a lot of grounds. For example thing's are rarely as simple as 'this person is more powerful than this person' down the line. Fighting styles, powers, and individual circumstances create a rock/paper/sissors effect when fighting. Kenpachi is pretty resiliant but against something like Mayuri's shikai, he probably would lose.

So this is just my list from what I've gathered from the series. Even though I'm sure Kenpachi would own with a shikai/bankai, I still don't think he would be able to hang with the likes of Ukitake or Kyoraku using bankai.

And my final disclaimer is that I have made a few assumptions in here which are not backed up by the series, but I did my best to decide logically from what I know about the Bleach universe and Japanese philosophy as it pertains to anime/manga in general.

gdo01

01-23-2007, 11:15 PM

I think you'll find the general consensus is that Hitsugaya is in the bottom tier of captains and not the top. Don't ask me for info on that but its what I've noticed. Anyway there have been several topics on this. Basically the only certainties are Aizen and Yamamoto on top, Kyouraku and Ukitake below them, Byakuya and Kenpachi below them,. Tousen and Komamura below them. Everyone else is completely subjective and could be anywhere.

Undying

01-23-2007, 11:19 PM

EndlessSky

01-23-2007, 11:42 PM

Yes, I agree with Undying.... he should be more towards the bottom, no way is he stronger than Byakuya, Tousen or any of the guys he is above in that list and I think you give Ichimaru Gin too little credit as well.

Nood

01-23-2007, 11:48 PM

Another thread of nothing.
So you think that the people ranked the same, actually arent exactly same? Are you insane thats crazy logic...
Another skin of this and I'll cry blood.
Guys get over it until we see all the captains in atleast 12 different circumstances and fights, use all their power in all the fights, we can not judge who is stronger then who, or not as accurately to put them in a line.

Houdenji

01-24-2007, 12:01 AM

I happen to strongly disagree with you putting Hitsguaya anywhere near the top.

Hitsugaya is a weakling. During his fight with Ichimaru he was being toyed with.

Aside from that, I pretty much agree with everything.

I don't see whats wrong with putting him close to the top... Ichimaru certainly didn't look like he was toying with Hitsugaya, in fact, Hitsugaya controlled the entire fight. Ichimaru made facial expressions which implied something other than 'this is fun'. and was caught helpless right before Ichimaru attempted to kill Hinamori. The animation of that moment also included a closeup of Ichimaru's eyes with darkened borders for the top and bottom of the screen which indicates surprise, generally if you are toying with someone, you do not lose control of a match. Only cowards and weaklings attack helpless and unconscious people. And if that's what he HAD to do to try to gain an advantage over Hitsugaya, then it proves he was in a worse spot than he anticipated. Without Matsumoto jumping in, Ichimaru was going to be stabbed through the back.

"ZOMG BUT GIN TOTALLY KNEW HITSUGAYA WAS GONNA DO THAT AND SET UP THE FIGHT SO IT WOULD GO LIKE THAT... REALLY!"

Anything claiming that Ichimaru was toying with Hitsugaya is pure, unfounded speculation. We have no other reference for Ichimaru fighting other than against Hitsugaya. Hitsugaya on the other hand, discluding Aizen who we all know is much stronger, has had 2 other battles (1 anime, 1 manga) in which he utterly destroyed his oponents when having access to his full potential (in the manga he had to have the Reitsu limit raised before he could beat the espada, but did so in a timely fashon once it was raised).

Until some kind of evidence is brought to light, thinking that Ichimaru is more powerful than Hitsugaya is pure fan-boy-ism.

Houdenji

01-24-2007, 12:05 AM

Another thread of nothing.
So you think that the people ranked the same, actually arent exactly same? Are you insane thats crazy logic...

huh?

Guys get over it until we see all the captains in atleast 12 different circumstances and fights, use all their power in all the fights, we can not judge who is stronger then who, or not as accurately to put them in a line.

I know we can't tell for certain. I thought it'd be fun just to see what we can come up with from what we do know. Sorry for repeating a topic, I'm new.

gdo01

01-24-2007, 12:11 AM

For the record, Hitsugaya did not beat an Espada once the limit was lifted. That was Shawlong Qufang who was defeated because of that. Luppi was the defeated Espada but Hitsugaya never managed to kill him. I'd rather not speculate how the fight would have continued but it did look like Hitsugaya was on the ropes when he decided to use all the moisture in the atmosphere but Luppi was no where near any position of winning at the time either. Unfortunately, we've seen no other Captain-Espada fight and many believe that Luppi was hardly an Espada. As for the anime, the only reason Hitsugaya fought Koga (and in fact it is probably the reason why he was even in the arrancar arc) is to satisfy the fanboys and fangirls (just like the scene where Kenpachi and Byakuya do nothing other than "escort").

I personally do not think that Hitsugaya is weak but the fact that he lacks experience does make it more likely that he is in the bottom 7 and definitely not in the top 6. Either way, I agree that most of these are completely subjective and are mostly opinions based on whether we give a damn about the character or not , thats why I'd rather base rankings on broader terms rather than specific 1,2,3,4,... ranking.

Houdenji

01-24-2007, 12:25 AM

Sorry about the misinformation, I was running on memory and it's been a while since I read those chapters.

I do see how the lack of experience would count toward something, seeing as we use Kyoraku's and Ukitake's experience as one of their stronger points. I still think He'd be higher than Kenpachi and Ichimaru at least.

I didn't really want to list things, but only did so because I thought it would be the least confusing way for the readers... That's why I implemented the additional spaces, I would rather list in a tier system. Also there are many people who are very subjective. I just attempted to place from my knowledge, knowing thered be some differing opinions. Like who really knows how a fight between Soi Fong and Kurotsuchi would play out. Conversely, its safe to say that Byakuya could kill Komamura pretty easily.

DFlux

01-24-2007, 01:17 AM

We can't for sure say if Aizen is weaker than Yama-jii, specially not based on the fact that he would have destroyed everything. Think about it: you want power, you want to rule the worlds, but you destroy them first? Who will you have to lord over then?

Only cowards and weaklings attack helpless and unconscious people.

I agree that Ichimaru is a coward (afraid of death to the max) but in no way a weakling. One of the things that makes people like him and Aizen so much more powerful than others is their ability to control their anger (unlike the slash-happy [how hypocritical] Tousen). His complete control of himself during that fight, and having the presence of mind to attack whatever is closest to Hitsugaya's heart shows you just how powerful he can be in manipulating his fight. And I never thought for a second that he was about to lose. Do not forget that the man has bankai and he could have easily called it if he really thought he would die.

Most importantly, he is Aizen's right hand man. I think that speaks volumes about his power level.

XV Barixn

01-24-2007, 02:04 AM

1. Yamamoto
2. Aizen
3. Kyoraku
4. Ukitake
5. Hitsugaya
6. Byakuya
7. Soi Fong
8. Mayuri
9. Kenpachi
10. Ichimaru
11. Tousen
12. Komamura
13. Unohana

Is this before Arrancar Arc or during/after Arrancar Arc?

Tousen and Ichimaru seem to become even more powerful, especially Tousen with his demonstration of cutting off Grimmjow's iron-skin arm.

Houdenji

01-24-2007, 02:06 AM

jonat3

01-24-2007, 02:59 AM

very true. Watching the episode again, I can see how people could get the idea that Ichimaru was better than I was making him out to be. But I still think the fight belonged to Hitsugaya. Every actual "hit" was made by Hitsugaya. The rip in the little joust they had and the capturing of Ichimaru's arm are the only physical contact outside of swordplay that was made. While we can speculate all we want, going solely on the fight; Hitsugaya had the edge.

Before... As of the beginning of the series because, yes, it does seem that Tousen and probably Ichimaru got stronger in HM. But we haven't gotten to see any of it yet. So this is all pre arrancar arc.

The amount of hits do not only determine a winner. From the fight, Hitsugaya fought good, but it seemed clear to me that he was just being toyed with. You only have to look at Gin's facial expressions to realize this. At no point in the fight was he ever truly cornered. And i doubt his aim for Hinamori was out of cowardice. More like pure malevolence. If you want to determine who really had the upper hand, just compare their facial expressions thorughout the fight. It's quite illuminating.

Besides, now that i've seen Hitsugaya fight a few times, it's more than obvious that reiatsu wise, Hitsugaya is only average. He's not that much stronger than either Ikkaku or Renji. The only thing that makes him exceptional, are the special properties of his abilities. And Gin on the other hand, is the right hand man of a guy that brought Grimmjow to his knees with only a glance.

h0f5

01-24-2007, 09:21 AM

Well talking about gin's facial expressions, anyone with the manga can look. The moment hyouinmaru was released ( after the page when kira was hit ) , ichimaru was not shown smiling at all. I couldnt care less about the anime rendition.

Oh well, my rating:

1. Aizen

2. Yamamoto

3. Kyoraku
3. Ukitake
4. Ichimaru
4. Tousen

7. Byakuya
8. Soi Fong

9. Hitsugaya
9. Mayuri
9. Kenpachi
13. Unohana

Nicole

01-24-2007, 01:30 PM

I'd probably put Hitsugaya above Unohana in a huge gap, if we're talking about combat power, here.

That's not to say that Unohana is super weak, either. She's just strong in other areas. :P

Habanero

01-24-2007, 01:45 PM

This must be about 100th topic of the same subject...

Just give it a half a year and maybe we can have some actual conversation instead of this worthless crap being repeated over and over again...

You people (except Nood) really seeing any difference in talking about different power levels of captains and (like this topic) saying that they aren't equal...? :whatevah:

Houdenji

01-24-2007, 03:10 PM

The amount of hits do not only determine a winner. From the fight, Hitsugaya fought good, but it seemed clear to me that he was just being toyed with. You only have to look at Gin's facial expressions to realize this. At no point in the fight was he ever truly cornered. And i doubt his aim for Hinamori was out of cowardice. More like pure malevolence. If you want to determine who really had the upper hand, just compare their facial expressions thorughout the fight. It's quite illuminating.

Facial expressions are one of the things I looked at when determining this. Don't confuse Ichimaru's temperment with control over the fight. Sure for the first attack sequence, nothing happened, everybody was fine. Then came the charge where Ichimaru's gi got ripped, the next several swings after that Ichimaru blocked very close to his head and had a very different look on his face, then in response he threw his rip and started his attack sequence on hitsugaya where hitsugaya looked concerned instead. Hitsugaya then trapped Ichimaru's sword and they stopped fighting again. Hitsugaya then went shikai and used misdirection to trap Ichimaru's arm and its VERY aparent that ichimaru did not intend for this to happen, at that point, Hitsugaya had the upper hand and the fight was cut short.

Besides, now that i've seen Hitsugaya fight a few times, it's more than obvious that reiatsu wise, Hitsugaya is only average. He's not that much stronger than either Ikkaku or Renji. The only thing that makes him exceptional, are the special properties of his abilities.

He is definitely a class above Ikkaku and Renji. Renji admited he may not have won in an all out fight from the beginning and Ikkaku almost died fighting his foe. Hitsugaya pretty much two shotted the 11th arrancar, the only reason he fell afterward was because he got beat up so much before the Limit release, and the fact that after his bankai left, he was pretty much drained of Reiatsu. If the condition of everybody at the end of those fights are what you are basing things off of, then Matsumoto is the most powerful one there... and we all know that's not true.

And Gin on the other hand, is the right hand man of a guy that brought Grimmjow to his knees with only a glance.

complete logical fallacy. Also we know that Gin and Tousen gained a large amount of power after going to HM. Since Tousen owns Grimmjow's arm, Grimjow beats up Bankai Ichigo, Ichigo could beat full power Kenpachi before even learning bankai, and Kenpachi makes lunch of Tousen... Ichimaru probably went through a similar power boost. But the fact that he's the "right hand man" of Aizen means nearly nothing. Being 1 of 2 shinigami that leave with a traitor doesn't mean you have any power, it just means you're evil.

DFlux

01-24-2007, 04:02 PM

Since Tousen owns Grimmjow's arm, Grimjow beats up Bankai Ichigo, Ichigo could beat full power Kenpachi before even learning bankai, and Kenpachi makes lunch of Tousen... Ichimaru probably went through a similar power boost. But the fact that he's the "right hand man" of Aizen means nearly nothing. Being 1 of 2 shinigami that leave with a traitor doesn't mean you have any power, it just means you're evil.

Actually, it is not a logical fallacy. We can see from Ichigo's attack on Yammi (the weakest of the Espada) that even Ulquiorra admits it would take a hell of a compacted reiatsu to cut through that hierro so easily. Even though Grimmjow was surprised, Tousen managed to take his arm clean off it one slash, putting him at least at Ichigo level (and Ichigo is inherently amazingly powerful).

Ichimaru must be exerting some level of intimidation over the Arrancar, no doubt about it. That puts him at at least Tousen level, and why shouldn't it? There's no proof he's not extremely powerful. The most telling sign is that since Hueco Mundo, we haven't seen him do anything.

And it does matter that he is Aizen's right hand man. Aizen would be the one who trained him to become captain, after all. That's not something you just ignore.

Undying

01-24-2007, 08:10 PM

You're basing your speculation on the anime, I see.

Check the manga. There was no fight at all, Hitsugaya just used Hyourinmaru (which Ichimaru blocked easily) and then froze Gin's arm, and then Gin just calmly nearly killed what was close to Hitsugaya's heart.

Now let's see, if Gin had succeeded in killin Hinamori, then you think Hitsugaya would have just sat down and went dead? Of course he would have whipped out his bankai at once (he did just that when Aizen killed Hinamori). If Gin was truly "afraid", he would have tried to stall or dodge.

Instead, he does the one thing that would bring Hitsugaya to fighting for real instead of just relying on Hyourinmaru's freezing: he tried to kill Hinamori.

Your logic just contradicts itself; if he was afraid or losing he would never have done the one thing that would have pushed Hitsugaya to the max.

As for Hitsugaya's power, firstly, him falling apart after the fight with Shaoling already points that he lacks stamina (Ikkaku and Renji both were still able to stand, Hitsugaya was down completely). That alone is already enough to point that he is weaker than other captains, because if a captain cannot go on fighting after sustaining such wounds, it means he's already weaker.

Interlude: there is no proof whatsoever that Hitsugaya's bankai takes any sort of toll on his stamina and/or physical health aside from what bankai usually takes. Even if you state that his collapsing was due to exhaustion from bankai coupled with those wounds, that already proves he's weaker because he cannot fight properly.

Next point in line, Hitsugaya's fight with Aizen. Hitsugaya who just activated bankai (after Hinamori was down - remember, Gin tried to kill Hinamori as well, and do you honestly believe that the effects would have been any differenrt?), was completely down after one single slash from Aizen.

The point is not that Hitsugaya is weaker than Aizen; we know that already (Aizen is the mega-villian, after all). The point is that Renji, who is supposedly a rank lower (and thus should be weaker than Hitsugaya), sustained one blow from Aizen (and note that the blows looked the same; Aizen flash-stepping forward and slashing once by drawing his sword) and did not collpase dead like Hitsugaya.

Renji was already wounded from his fight with Byakuya (and even though he was healed he did not fully recover) and he was tired from running with Rukia. So, Fresh and healthy Hitsugaya couldn't sustain one single blow from Aizen, whereas the weaker and wounded Renji could.

That points that Renji's stamina is higher than Hitsugaya's.

Next point, which I do not consider worthy because it is based on the anime, is Hitsugaya's fight with the Bount. He didn't manage to kill Koga, who was halfway giving up already, with his bankai. How weak is that?

Next, Hitsugaya VS Luppi. Luppi, the arrogant and snobby Espada, nearly killed Hitsugaya with his inital blow, and would have had the kid captain dead if he weren't so arrogant. And even when Hitsugaya recovered and fired his "ultimate attack" at Luppi, Luppi sustained what can be passed as minor injuries (minor for an Espada). Although we don't have other Captain's fighting Espada yet, note that Hitsugaya is weaker than the weakest 6th Espada.

If he is indeed one of the highest captains, don't you think you have just doomed Soul Society?

P.S And how could I forget the argument most stated in this thread, "Gin is Aizen's right hand man".

At least Tousen has gotten stronger (or at least managed to get past being a moron, he could have beaten Zaraki if not for idiocy. He could have chopped Zaraki's head off with one blow, basically. But that's a whole "how come Tousen > Grimmjow and Grimmjow > Ichigo but Ichigo > Zaraki and Zaraki > Tousen" debate, so I won't go into that now).

But does the same hold true for Gin? I doubt it. At least, there is nothing to point to it.

EndlessSky

01-24-2007, 09:48 PM

I for one think Gin is pretty strong, when havn't seen him fight much either, but if he is Aizens "right hand man" like most are saying, then wouldn't he be trusted and be confident of ablity if not second strongest under Aizen?

If you look at the Hitsugaya and Gin fight, it seemed like Hitsugaya was having a pretty hard time and was full of anger, and he was using his ice and everything (Don't know if he released bankai, but I know he told Hinamori to run far far away which means he probably gonna use something powerful and all Gin does is fight with his zanpakato (a wakashasi unreleased) and extends shinsou a few times, thats it, when Hitsugaya is using all this power and stuff (not sure how much) and Gin is just messing around hardly using even shikai.

jonat3

01-25-2007, 01:56 AM

Well talking about gin's facial expressions, anyone with the manga can look. The moment hyouinmaru was released ( after the page when kira was hit ) , ichimaru was not shown smiling at all. I couldnt care less about the anime rendition.

I wasn't referring to Gin's smiling, more of how Hitsugaya's face showed more instances of surprise throughout the fight than Gin's face. Face it. No person that supposedly has the upper hand would show such a face.

Facial expressions are one of the things I looked at when determining this. Don't confuse Ichimaru's temperment with control over the fight. Sure for the first attack sequence, nothing happened, everybody was fine. Then came the charge where Ichimaru's gi got ripped, the next several swings after that Ichimaru blocked very close to his head and had a very different look on his face, then in response he threw his rip and started his attack sequence on hitsugaya where hitsugaya looked concerned instead. Hitsugaya then trapped Ichimaru's sword and they stopped fighting again. Hitsugaya then went shikai and used misdirection to trap Ichimaru's arm and its VERY aparent that ichimaru did not intend for this to happen, at that point, Hitsugaya had the upper hand and the fight was cut short.

I NEVER rely on the anime as reference. The anime and manga have inherent differences. Because of these differences, any part added to the anime not present in the manga is not to be trusted.

He is definitely a class above Ikkaku and Renji. Renji admited he may not have won in an all out fight from the beginning and Ikkaku almost died fighting his foe. Hitsugaya pretty much two shotted the 11th arrancar, the only reason he fell afterward was because he got beat up so much before the Limit release, and the fact that after his bankai left, he was pretty much drained of Reiatsu. If the condition of everybody at the end of those fights are what you are basing things off of, then Matsumoto is the most powerful one there... and we all know that's not true.

You don't understand a thing Renji said. Why did Renji win so easily? THE SURPRISE ELEMENT. Now, compare his situation with Hitsugaya's situation. THEY ARE EXACTLY THE SAME. There is virtually no difference between their fights. In other words, the reason Hitsugaya won against Shawlong was also because of the surprise element. It would be hypocritical to state that Renji was the only one to use the surprise element when Renji's actions were exactly the same as Hitsugaya's actions. Even both of their opponent's reactions were similar.

Had Hitsugaya and Renji fought without the limit, they would both not have had the surprise element and their fights would rely on luck, EXACTLY like Ikkaku's fight. We can conclude from all this that Renji's, Ikkaku's and Hitsugaya's reiatsu are only oughly equal to that of a gillian arrancar. Even if Shawlong was the strongest gillian arrancar of them all, he's still a gillian arrancar. So that Hitsugaya performed exactly the same as Renji definately shows that Hitsugaya isn't alot stronger than either Renji or Ikkaku reiatsu wise.

As for Luppi, he only was able to beat him, because Luppi was stupid enough to turn his back on Hitsugaya. No matter how strong you are, a weak enemy will still be able to damage you if you give him all the time of the world. What Hitsugaya did was basically a charge attack megaman style. It's an attack he can only use if he has enough time to charge up. Hitsugaya could have beaten Shawlong with this move even WITH the limit on his powers, but he couldn't use it against Shawlong, because the attack requires an amount of time to charge.

complete logical fallacy. Also we know that Gin and Tousen gained a large amount of power after going to HM. Since Tousen owns Grimmjow's arm, Grimjow beats up Bankai Ichigo, Ichigo could beat full power Kenpachi before even learning bankai, and Kenpachi makes lunch of Tousen... Ichimaru probably went through a similar power boost. But the fact that he's the "right hand man" of Aizen means nearly nothing. Being 1 of 2 shinigami that leave with a traitor doesn't mean you have any power, it just means you're evil.

Funny. You call my argument a logical fallacy and then you turn around and state something that hasn't been confirmed in the manga and state it like it's fact. We don't know that Tousen and Gin got stronger going to HM. Tousen chopping of Grimmjow's arm means nothing. Perhaps he got stronger, but you could also argue that Grimmjow may have underestimated Tousen's justice. Afterall, Tousen supposedly hates bloodshed, so Grimmjow may have misjudged Tousen. But that's al speculation, just like your arguments.

Houdenji

01-25-2007, 03:46 AM

Oh, well... it seems the majority vote is against me. I could go respond to everything, but im sure you guys could respond back and the like. In the end we're going to have to agree to disagree. I just started on these boards and I don't want to start off with arguments =P

A note on anime vs manga... I didn't start manga until the Bounto arc started on the anime when I was checking stuff out on wiki and saw that Bounto wasn't there. So that's where my manga knowledge starts. I assumed that the manga and anime were close enough for these comparisons. Aparently the manga paints a very different picture of the encounter. Quick question tho, is the same guy in charge of writing storyline for both manga and anime? sorry i forget his name. Or does he have writers to add the anime stuff?

On a lighter note: I was glad to see that most people agree that Kyoraku and Ukitake probably deserve some of the highest spots. I was worried since they have less of the 'cool factor' and how we haven't really seen either of them fight that they wouldn't be acknowledged properly.

jonat3

01-25-2007, 03:53 AM

Oh, well... it seems the majority vote is against me. I could go respond to everything, but im sure you guys could respond back and the like. In the end we're going to have to agree to disagree. I just started on these boards and I don't want to start off with arguments =P

Lol, i don't really mind arguments.

A note on anime vs manga... I didn't start manga until the Bounto arc started on the anime when I was checking stuff out on wiki and saw that Bounto wasn't there. So that's where my manga knowledge starts. I assumed that the manga and anime were close enough for these comparisons. Aparently the manga paints a very different picture of the encounter. Quick question tho, is the same guy in charge of writing storyline for both manga and anime? sorry i forget his name. Or does he have writers to add the anime stuff?

Kubo Tite is bleach's creator. And i believe his involvement with the anime is only limited. He did do a few things in the anime, like the designs of the bounto from the filler arc.

On a lighter note: I was glad to see that most people agree that Kyoraku and Ukitake probably deserve some of the highest spots. I was worried since they have less of the 'cool factor' and how we haven't really seen either of them fight that they wouldn't be acknowledged properly.

Yeah, would be nice to finally see these two in action. I suspect they could possibly be as strong or even stronger than Byakuya.

Durothill

01-25-2007, 12:44 PM

heh, I'd drop the debate about hitsuga its been rehashed so many times. The balance of evidence puts him probably at best midway among the captains, though i think people are overestimating Renji by putting him on par with hitsuga. Using the arrencar fights as a base assumes all the arrencar faced in that battle were of the same strength just for a start.
Basically i'd advise waiting a little while, we'll se more of the captains and be better able to judge later.
I am a little worried that they're being marginalised at the moment, with all the powerjumps for the ryoka and the uppertiers of the espada seemingly far beyond them.
Oh just as a finall aside, my gut definitley wants to put ukitake and Kyoraku above byuka, they clearly seem to have more experience and have been so at ease throughout the manga points to confidence in their abilities.

jonat3

01-25-2007, 02:46 PM

heh, I'd drop the debate about hitsuga its been rehashed so many times. The balance of evidence puts him probably at best midway among the captains, though i think people are overestimating Renji by putting him on par with hitsuga. Using the arrencar fights as a base assumes all the arrencar faced in that battle were of the same strength just for a start.
Basically i'd advise waiting a little while, we'll se more of the captains and be better able to judge later.

Hell, i'm not saying Renji could beat Hitsugaya. Just that REIATSU WISE, they aren't that far apart. Like i said, even if Shawlong was the strongest gillian arrancar of the lot, he's still a gillian arrancar. The differences in power between gillian arrancars are not that wide apart compared to the difference in power between a gillian arrancar and an adjucas or even a vastoorode arrancar.

Naturally, there's more involved in a fight than just reiatsu, so even if Renji had the same amount of reiatsu, Hitsugaya's special ice ability would still give him the advantage over renji (i think).

VinScythe

01-25-2007, 04:59 PM

I would not underestimate Komamura's strength that much, his Bankai would probably rip through Tousen's layer. Taking a high level spell from allmighty Aizen(not only that but 5th division's specialty is in demon spells) and yet it doesn't take him much of a struggle to stand back up in anger at Tousen, Hitsugaya was done in by a slash to death(and you cant tell if that was shikai or just the blade)
If he's Yamma's body guard i would also suspect him to be capable of handling renegade Mayuri and Kenpachi.

Aizen probably is weaker and even afraid of Yammamoto, he could easily vanish and slit the old man's neck, but I'm more likely guessing the old man's reiatsu is strong enough as to the point where Ichigo attack first merely scratched Zaraki

Durothill

01-25-2007, 05:00 PM

ah ok i see what you mean. Well we may find out who is stronger in the not too distant future as Renji and Hitsuga seem to get the most of the spotlight out of the shinigami :).

AznPoi

01-26-2007, 05:50 AM

There's only a few points that I'll disagree with.

Hitsugaya has been taken care of.
----------------------------------------------
As for Soi Fong being lower than Byakuya. Soi Fong is faster than Byakuya if I remember correctly by a huge gap.

Proof: Yoruichi using shunpo while carrying Ichigo is a lot faster than Byakuya. Yet, in the fight Soi Fong Vs Yoruichi, Soi Fong was able to match Yurichi step by step if not better until Yurichi pulls out her UBERNESS but we still didn't get to see much of it either.

So I think Soi Fong should be above Byakuya.
----------------------------------------
Unohana is also one of the older captains so I think she isn't the weakest even though she's a medic.
----------------------------------------
Ukitake in his prime (before sickness) would have been one of the top, but with his sickness it really varies. When fighting that Hollow that killed Kaien, his sickness happens to hit him right there and he couldn't even chase the hollow.

Ukitake is a hard one since it's all very situational. Whenever, Ukitake coughs up blood he becomes useless.

I would move Ukitake either to the bottom or the middle. Until they fix his illness, it all depends. When he fought Yama with Shunsui, he was fine. When he fought the hollow and the sickness occurred then he was basically useless.

Houdenji

01-26-2007, 10:14 PM

There's only a few points that I'll disagree with.

Hitsugaya has been taken care of.

indeed, quite thoroughly.

----------------------------------------------
As for Soi Fong being lower than Byakuya. Soi Fong is faster than Byakuya if I remember correctly by a huge gap.

Proof: Yoruichi using shunpo while carrying Ichigo is a lot faster than Byakuya. Yet, in the fight Soi Fong Vs Yoruichi, Soi Fong was able to match Yurichi step by step if not better until Yurichi pulls out her UBERNESS but we still didn't get to see much of it either.

So I think Soi Fong should be above Byakuya.

True, but we also saw how Byakuya's Bankai could keep up with Bankai Ichigo (who im guessing is faster than regular Yoruichi). I'd still say that one is up in the air due to not knowing Soi Fong's Bankai. But they seem pretty close to me. Either one could be ahead really, I happen to lean toward Byakuya.

----------------------------------------
Unohana is also one of the older captains so I think she isn't the weakest even though she's a medic.

That is true. Simply in the past, medic's have generally had lower fighting powers. I refuse to go into this one because we have 0 anything on Unohana. She could seriously be anywhere in the list. I just put her at the bottom based off of how medic's are portrayed in most anime/manga. We just have too little information, she has to be put at the top or the bottom, I chose the bottom.

----------------------------------------
Ukitake in his prime (before sickness) would have been one of the top, but with his sickness it really varies. When fighting that Hollow that killed Kaien, his sickness happens to hit him right there and he couldn't even chase the hollow.

Ukitake is a hard one since it's all very situational. Whenever, Ukitake coughs up blood he becomes useless.

I would move Ukitake either to the bottom or the middle. Until they fix his illness, it all depends. When he fought Yama with Shunsui, he was fine. When he fought the hollow and the sickness occurred then he was basically useless.

I sorta covered this. According to Yama, Ukitake has always poor health. His acheivements as a Captain for 2000 years has been done in spite of his sickness. I won't say its a moot point, but I think his Reiatsu and skill in fighting probably enough above the rest to discount the random sickness encounters. Also, if you live with a sickness for 2000 years, I'm assuming you learn a few things as to how to work around it. Aside from his random spasms, He could probably tear through most captains inbetween coughs. A lot of it comes down to the frequency of the unexpected bloody coughs. But you never know, he could have had a few small coughs durring the Yama fight, and the Kaien one being one of his worst coughs ever... Perhaps he can fight through some, or perhaps they don't happen enough for him to feel the need to avoid fighting.

And playing on the normal anime/manga stuff again (which isn't law by any means, but an ok way to fill in gaps in information), A fighting character with illness is normally uncomparably powerful without the indefinite sickness. Of course Bleach has, on more than one occation, completely blown out of the water things I would normally expect.

Again bottom line, we just don't know.

Good thoughts on everything tho, very good points =).

AznPoi

01-27-2007, 07:06 AM

Na, Byakuya's bankai never was able to keep up with Ichigo. It's just that Ichigo's bankai just made him slower and slower the longer he uses it since he didn't properly trained his bankai.

Therefore, I think Soi Fong would be above Byakuya. If Byakuya's bankai made him faster, then Soi Fong would make her faster also.

Undying

01-27-2007, 12:52 PM

frbbls

01-27-2007, 02:20 PM

Plus, everyone is always looking for the ends of the fights, and not of abilities.
There are loads of combinations within these ranks you've placed them where they are wrong.

Place Mayuri versus ANY melee-based Captain, Kenpachi, Soi Fong... Give him one hit, and he's won. Im sorry but Kubo just intended him to lose versus Ishida because he could then bring on the mighty Quincy technique to please the fanboys.
Same as i've said in another thread about the Byakuya - Ichigo fight, if Byakuya wasn't stubborn to kill Ichigo with one sword, Ichigo would have been mashed that day.
If Tousen didn't try to play around with Zaraki and stabbed him the instant his bankai got into action he would have simply walked all over him.

It's really Kubo's way how we interpret power levels of the captains. But we dont actually match them versus eachother by their abilities and so forth.

But place Mayuri versus any long/mid range captain, and Mayuri would get owned. There is no real 1 2 3 ranking system, it's really all about who is being matched up against who.

Well one might say **** persons reiatsu is bigger then **** but based purely on fighting abilities there are multiple rankings for every captain.

If Mayrui wasn't being the sadistic twat he is, playing with his enemies, he can overpower any captain with just one hit, i call that powerful.
Seeing Kubo gave him this nasty personality, we guess we will always see Mayrui fail and it's sad because he's really interesting imo ;D.

sniperz

01-27-2007, 02:53 PM

well his bankai could have owned most captains unless they can counteract his poisons. ( i mean mayuri)

well he can die anytime but he can like 8 kills 1 death XD < dota styles eh XD lolz

Houdenji

01-27-2007, 06:18 PM

Byakuya's bankai didn't make him faster, he states as much himself. It's Ichigo's speed that dropped.

So yeah, even if Ichigo is at first faster than Yoruichi (and Soi Fon was pretty close to Yoruichi, remember?), then over time he slowed.

And we had an ancient thread somewhere where we hada discussion "who is faster, Yoruichi or bankai Ichigo". We didn't really reacha conclusion, though.

Now this may be another anime vs manga issue. But I didn't mean Byakuya's actual speed. If it was in the manga as well, when Byakuya used his hands to guide his Bankai, He moved fast enough to actually trap Ichigo, but Ichigo then knocked down every tiny blade, something im fairly certain Soi Fong couldnt do. I remember well the Ichigo slowing down thing, it wasn't what I meant. Also, even if Soi Fong is faster in general, Byakuya is no slouch.

You could very easily be correct. I still think Byakuya would come out on top of that fight, however.

Plus, everyone is always looking for the ends of the fights, and not of abilities.
There are loads of combinations within these ranks you've placed them where they are wrong.

Place Mayuri versus ANY melee-based Captain, Kenpachi, Soi Fong... Give him one hit, and he's won. Im sorry but Kubo just intended him to lose versus Ishida because he could then bring on the mighty Quincy technique to please the fanboys.
Same as i've said in another thread about the Byakuya - Ichigo fight, if Byakuya wasn't stubborn to kill Ichigo with one sword, Ichigo would have been mashed that day.
If Tousen didn't try to play around with Zaraki and stabbed him the instant his bankai got into action he would have simply walked all over him.

It's really Kubo's way how we interpret power levels of the captains. But we dont actually match them versus eachother by their abilities and so forth.

But place Mayuri versus any long/mid range captain, and Mayuri would get owned. There is no real 1 2 3 ranking system, it's really all about who is being matched up against who.

Well one might say **** persons reiatsu is bigger then **** but based purely on fighting abilities there are multiple rankings for every captain.

This was partly what I said in my origional post. There's always a paper/rock/sissors setup. I tried to emphasis that if I absolutely HAD to make a list, that's how I thought it would go. However things like Reiatsu and experience do make a major difference as well. Yama could hand's down defeat any of the other captains reguardless of their abilities.

I think something like a tier list can be made (with more complete information anyway). It's done in every major video game. I know this isn't a video game, but it shares some qualities with what we are attempting to do. Most games are designed for balance and players still come up with, more or less, fairly good representations of who is where. We have it more complicated because we don't have all the information, but we don't know that there is even power difference between the captains, and not just abilities like you would see in a video game. You can say out of the 12 other captains, this person can beat X number, this person can beat X number and so on. That's one way to attempt it.

Not saying we're anywhere close to correct, but thats what this discussion is about. Seeing what we DO know and CAN figure out about the captains and how they match up to each other. This also doesn't mean that any captain will always beat every captain below him on the list and lose to every captain above him. It's just a placement of overall effectiveness.

Your points on Mayuri are very good. Why not put together how you think he would fare against different oponents, that could end up moving him up or down on our own little 'tier list'.

If Mayrui wasn't being the sadistic twat he is, playing with his enemies, he can overpower any captain with just one hit, i call that powerful.
Seeing Kubo gave him this nasty personality, we guess we will always see Mayrui fail and it's sad because he's really interesting imo ;D.

I really like Mayuri too... when(if) I finish my fanfic, I'll post it here and let you read it. Kisuke is the main character, but I get into Mayuri's personality and thought process a bit.

frbbls

01-27-2007, 10:25 PM

Actually, Maybe i would try to give an indepth view of Mayuri based on what whe have seen in the manga and stuff, though i haven't checked the anime since the fillers began and i understood he was shown in the anime as well does someoe have an idea which episode it was with him fighting, or is he just using the plain ol' babyworm of doom?

I still stand by my opinion Mayuri is one of the more powerful captains, though not really in the combat area. His reaitsu may be lower then others but still. There are multiple ways to win, to either overwhelm the enemy with battle prowess or to simply make him so much weaker then you, and THATS what Mayuri is all about.

And one thing i found a good use for Unohana. I reckon if Mayuri has to face off versus Unohana he might aswell just stab himself in the heart. I bet Unohana has got everything a medical shinigami needs to counter his poison and nerve-blocking abilities.

Houdenji

01-27-2007, 11:09 PM

The anime filler espisode with Mayuri fighting is episode 101. Not too shaby for a filler fight. However, like any filler... they reuse most things from previous episodes since they can't invnet anything new that doesn't show up later in the manga.

And one thing i found a good use for Unohana. I reckon if Mayuri has to face off versus Unohana he might aswell just stab himself in the heart. I bet Unohana has got everything a medical shinigami needs to counter his poison and nerve-blocking abilities.

stabbing himself in the heart won't do much, he'd have to chop off his own head to die. Or just stab himself in the neck to ooze his way out of the fight.

Undying

01-27-2007, 11:20 PM

I think he would stab himself whevere just ot get away from her, she's the lady of doom, that one.

And also, if you were refering to the speed of the Senbonzakura Kageyoushi cloud of petals, you are indeed right, by using his hands, Byakuya can double the speed in which they travel (hence he was able to catch even bankai speed Ichigo).

And while it's true that Soi Fon's sword is nowhere near fast enough to knock of every single Senbozakura Kageyoushi blade (start couting, there should be at least a couple million), I don't think she'd let Byakuya have that chance.

Her fighting style is probably based off on attacking as quickly as possible and killing as quickly as possible - like a ninja. The ninja strikes from the shadows, fast and silent, and kills with a blow - two in her case.

Also, Shunko might affect Senbonzakura in some way we don't know - maybe the concentrated Kido would deflect the petals, or something similiar. At any rate, since they are both Kido/Speed users (Byakuya also has sword fighting, but Soi Fon has an equally effective hand-to-hand so I am removing this third factor), we can't deduce anything, really.

Now as for Mayuri... for all I hate him ebcause he's a sadistic freak (and I happed to hate sadistic freaks *shrug*), I know that he's very powerful. In fact, I bet he can bring down most of the Gotei with his poison and he won't even have to run around and fight - hence his reiatsu is low, otherwise he'd pretty much be unbeateable.

The only captain in the Gotei that I see no hope for is Hitsugaya. The little midget is just too weak. Unless he somehow grows into a properly badass man (a la Ryuuken, the second badass white-haired bishounen in the series), nothing will change my thinking about him.

Zack_jenkins

01-28-2007, 06:14 AM

im glad people are starting to realize mayuris strength... he is way above hitsugaya, i would put him in at least spot 5.. after yamamoto,aizen,ukitake,and kyoraku i mean his bankai completely immobolizes anyone on the area..... so even if an enemy can get out of attack range the poison filling the air would affect them... he is completely underrated while he is one of the best captain in the series.... he is definately better than kenpachi,byakuya,gin, and soi fong... all she can do is move fast... and thanks to mayuris body poisons dont affect him making suzumbachi useless

but thats my opinion

DFlux

01-28-2007, 07:53 AM

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if a poison could immobilise him at least, if not kill him. He may be immune to known poisons, but I think someone (say, Urahara) could have poisons he'd never even dream of.

Anyone else find it a little creepy that Konjiki Ashisogi Jizo's poison is made of his own blood? That would have be some pretty nasty elixer he's got in his veins.

Zack_jenkins

01-28-2007, 08:00 AM

yeah thatr is pretty crazy if you think about it... and its not made of his blood the poison is not the enitre thing

Motorola

01-28-2007, 10:12 AM

More information concerning Whitey-Chan:

During his fight with the Arrancar, he was only able to defeat his opponent after the limit was removed. However, before the limit was removed, Ikkaku was able to use his bankai and defeat his opponent. This just shows that Ikkaku with probably half the spirit energy that Whitey had, could defeat his opponent and still live.

This further proves that Whitey is a weak ass Captain, though I won't discredit him for looking cool. Also, Renji states that Ikkaku is captain level. We can only come up with one conclusion: Whitey is the weakest of the 13 captains.

Anyhow, as for the rest of the argument:

How can you say that Kenpachi is not the strongest captain, when that is stated? I forgot who and when it was stated, but I remember for a fact that it was stated that Kenpachi is the strongest of the 13 captains. Not only is he the strongest, he just looks and acts cool. Soifong is a weakling. In any fight, speed is not a deciding factor unless it was a race, but which in this case it is a fight and not a race. In the world of fighting there are 3 aspects(4 if you count balls/confidence): speed~strength~technique. Having one or two, in Soifong's case speed and/or technique, does not make her better than Byakuya. He clearly shows that he has all 3 aspects of fighting. Although Kenpachi may not be the fastest captain, we do know that he is the STRONGEST and that he does have technique(referring to his ownage on Tousen); Kenpachi is a very smart fighter and his confidence gives him an edge. Who can be more badass than a guy that gives his opponent an advantage?

Habanero

01-28-2007, 10:33 AM

Euhm... You don't really have your facts right do you...?

When Hitsugaya and the others were fighting the arrancars, Ikkaku was not affected by the strenght limiting since he's not a captain nor a vice-captain.

About Kenpachi, claiming he is the strongest of all captains is something you'll have to back up. I've watched all the episodes 2-3 times and read the manga pretty carefully but I don't remember anyone saying that he's the strongest. Apart from his subordinates of course, but they're his fan boys anyway. His spirit power may well be strongest of the captains apart from Yama, but the lack of bankai makes him very vulnerable against really strong opponents.

Motorola

01-28-2007, 10:51 AM

Perhaps that first part is so. I do recall that the spirit power is limited for vice captains and captains. I guess I just assumed it was for all shinigami that has a certain amount of spirit power. Even so, Renji does state that Ikkaku is captain material. Anyhow, on the side note, I recall during the S.S. arc that it was stated that Kenpachi is the strongest captain leading the strongest division. It's clear that he does have the most spirit power making him the strongest. As for proof, I only have my word(I deleted all the episodes I had.) I'm not a Bleach junkie, I just watch it and sometimes read the manga- not a hardcore fan seeing as how the story line is based on DBZ type action(now, I'm not bagging on DBZ. It's probably my all-time favorite anime). Power ups(CHARGING UP), new forms(FREEZA, SUPER SAIYAN), etc... How the hell can Ichigo go into Hueco Mundo when he didn't even train properly? His arse is quite weak. We're talking about a guy that can barely handle Grimjow, which easily got his hand cut off by Tousen, a weak arse captain that got raped by Kenpachi. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Tousen got stronger, but even then Grimjow is a joke compaired to Tousen, Gin and, especially Aizen!

frbbls

01-28-2007, 02:49 PM

Actually, you should be a Bleach junkie entering these kinds of discussions.

To settle some 'so called facts' of yours about Zaraki.
Zaraki is said to be the strongest captain around in the SS arc, leading the physical battle division. He is called strongest mostly because of his enormous natural reiatsu seeing he didn't had a shikai or bankai available at that time. But i reckon Yama for obvious reason has way more. And for his increadible stamina, you saw how both he and Ichigo were mangled after that fight. Taken loads of hits and still giggling like a little girl who's playing with barbies. He is just nowhere (sadly, because he's just awesome) near a Byakuya level or any tactical advantage using person, say Mayuri.
He will always be the underdog where he just runs into battles and gets brutally outthinked and well, raped to say the least.

Though IF Zaraki makes a hit, hah, then it's a different story, he can take the punches but he can also make the punches. All in all for Bleach goes the saying intelligence > strenght. Strenght is a good thing to have, but if you are able to fully utilize your, well the captain's abilities, then your in a higher standard then when you just have a maniac running around. releasing his reiatsu and chop buildings down. Which was kinda cool harhar ;D.

Soi Fong's speed not a factor? I'm 100% sure she would beat the crap out of Zaraki. We all know if your speed is probably high, your strenght is lower and vica versa, but Soi Fong doesn't need to make a lot of hits, she just needs 2 on the right place and it's over. She would murder Zaraki haha.

Saying Kenpachi is a smart fighter? Haha, really you should kinda think over your life. He takes his joy out of battles, which makes his fearsome, normally people don't act this way when in a battle. Sorta like the frenzy troops of Germany and the Vikings in the past, the shocktroops. Because enemies have never seen such joy of getting into a fight which they really wouldn't want to fight and stay home with the family, they tend to get afraid. Because which fools would have so much energy and joy when your not good at fighting?

Anyhow, back to Zaraki, he might maken a smart move when inside Tousen's bankai but cmon' Tousen could have just stabbed him in the heart and it was over.. Hope you can follow me here... So his so called 'ownage' on Tousen isn't really happening. It's for the fans haha. (Like me). And what kinda technique did he use in fighting Tousen? Nothing, he relied on his own body, while yet again some won't have done that, he is able to take the hits and live.
Which i think no other captain would have survived.

All in all it comes down to one thing why Zaraki is just so awesome, and sadly overrated. And im saying this as a fanboy, i should really commit suicide now.
Zaraki has a body that can take the beating of 5, has the strenght of 5 men and has the brain of 1/5 of them. His natural reiatsu has given the edge in all of his fights now, and aswell his explosive energy burst and joy when fighting.

Zaraki is good, versus non bankai captains/non released arrancars/and so forth.
So thats why, BRING ON HIS BANKAI! o//.

davidn15

01-28-2007, 02:59 PM

Well talking about gin's facial expressions, anyone with the manga can look. The moment hyouinmaru was released ( after the page when kira was hit ) , ichimaru was not shown smiling at all. I couldnt care less about the anime rendition.

Oh well, my rating:

1. Aizen

2. Yamamoto

3. Kyoraku
3. Ukitake
4. Ichimaru
4. Tousen

7. Byakuya
8. Soi Fong

9. Hitsugaya
9. Mayuri
9. Kenpachi
13. Unohana

I dont know about that. Tousen had a lot of trouble with Zaraki and Zaraki is definitely not second weakest

Zack_jenkins

01-28-2007, 04:54 PM

kenpachi is in no way the strongest it has been said that shunsui and ukitake are unrivaled on the battlefield by generations young and old..... soi fong is an amazing captain in the fact that she has speed to rival that of bankai ichigo... she could kill most captain in a few minutes.... hitsugaya is a weak captain.. he probably isnt the weakest (weakest being komamura, and tousen) he is also the youngest so he has the least experiance... i belive by the time that he is say byakuyas or kenpachis age he would be a very powerful captain... but for right now he is a weakling as far as captains go

davidn15

01-28-2007, 05:14 PM

(weakest being komamura, and tousen)
ur forgetting unohana she's definitely weaker

Zack_jenkins

01-28-2007, 05:21 PM

she is head of the fourth division which is excluded from battle and combat therefore she must be excluded from strength gauging as well... i was just speaking as far as captains who have actually been in combat... i understand she is by far the weakest i just excluded her on purpose

frbbls

01-28-2007, 05:43 PM

By far the weakest?

And you base that on? Since we havent seen anything it is easy to assume shes weak because she leads a medical division, but comparing this to naruto, well it might have some thruth in it. Medical ninjas are really really powerful, just notice Tsunade and Kabuto to name a few.

She probably knows every little mistake in the human's body only to exploit her knowledge in a battle. Breaking certain bones, slicing arteries, rip important muscles.
I'd bet shes as Mayuri a pain in the ass for melee fighters.

Zack_jenkins

01-28-2007, 06:09 PM

yeah that is true but as it has been stated people in the fourth division usually cant even swing a sword properly.... so by assuming she can shut down major arteries and wut not by her knowledge of the human body that doesnt mean she is strong enough to pull it off... im just saying chances are and most people wil agree with me unohana is the weakest captain

frbbls

01-28-2007, 06:17 PM

Based on things other Shinigami have said.
I think it's weak to go by that, even Mayuri in my opinion is based in highmid class just because of his abilities and tendency to gather as much data on anyone as possible. Which makes him get an enormous advantage over people who don't bother.

Same as Unohana might be exellent at Kidou, which makes her a killer with high Kidou, just look at the Aizen/Komamura deal. She doesn't need to swing her sword much for that.

Zack_jenkins

01-28-2007, 06:21 PM

true im not saying that we know she is the weakest but based on speculation alone she probably is the weakest... for all we know she could be ne of the strongest but we havent seen her fight yet so all we can assume is by her division she is the weakest.... im not saying that i know for a fact she is the weakest but for all we know so far she is

Motorola

01-28-2007, 06:45 PM

In the end, Whitey is the weakest captain! That's all that matters. He definitely is cool looking, but he's a little kid. I would say he is even weaker than the 4th division captain. Now we know that the 4th division doesn't even carry zanpaktous, but she has one. Her intelligence was also praised by Aizen, which did not even attempt to kill her because she would own him(haha just kidding)!

As for Kenpachi, I will stick to saying he is the strongest Captain and can't be defeated by any other Captain. Just wait 'til you see his Shikai and Bankai(I'm assuming he will learn it in the future!). Kenpachi can move fast, he just doesn't do it often. You can see that he flash steps in Soul Society quite a bit when trying to find a battle with his Vice Captain(forgot her name).

Anyhow, if you say Kenpachi could have gotten killed in one hit by tousen, just look at Byakuya, he had two instances when he could have died in a second by Ichigo. Don't get me wrong here, I like Byakuya; he definitely is cool. He looks and acts cool, but Kenpachi is too much of a beast to pass up.

davidn15

01-28-2007, 06:51 PM

Zack_jenkins

01-28-2007, 07:09 PM

i also agree kenpachi is by no means the strongest... but he is by no means the weakest either.... he is probably near the top 5 maybe 6 at worst

davidn15

01-28-2007, 07:12 PM

kenpachi would be near unstoppable if he learned bankai. could you imagine how powerful that would be

Zack_jenkins

01-28-2007, 07:13 PM

yes he would be near unstoppable.. i mean he beat a captain level shiniagmi without even know the name of his sword proving that he is a great warrior and with his extremely high riatsu i belive he could hold his banaki out longer than any other captain

frbbls

01-28-2007, 07:14 PM

Anyhow, if you say Kenpachi could have gotten killed in one hit by tousen, just look at Byakuya, he had two instances when he could have died in a second by Ichigo. Don't get me wrong here, I like Byakuya; he definitely is cool. He looks and acts cool, but Kenpachi is too much of a beast to pass up.

I haven't implied that Byakuya was unbeatable that fight. I know Ichigo had his fair number of chances aswell. They are both just too stubborn to do it fast, sticking to one's honour and word and the other is just a soft pussy not intending to kill anyone if he doesn't have to.

Im just saying that you can't build around the fact because Kenpachi survived Tousen's bankai that Kenpachi >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tousen.
Although, Tousen had to pull out his bankai for him. But to say this, if you can use it why don't? Some people might think of him that he's weak pulling out his bankai, but it's the ONE thing that really hurts a melee fighter most, his eyesight. Well i would gave done it the instant i was attacked by Zaraki, i rather disable the enemy and chop him up to my leisure then to actually have to overpower Zaraki and get badly wounded myself.
Same as with Komamura he was able to block the attack from his big badass avatar. Zaraki is a powerhouse, and i love him aswell <333, but realisticly, Zaraki would crumble beneath Byakuya and Mayuri, though he might just laugh at Mayuri for cutting him up. But noone lives forever ;].

davidn15

01-28-2007, 07:19 PM

yeah byakuya would destroy zaraki and the only reason mayuri would win is becuz of that damn poison and paralysis stuff

Zack_jenkins

01-28-2007, 07:25 PM

that is very true mayuris poison is a cheap but effective way of winning.... kenpachi is strong but not the strongest... but i will keep saying it if he ever learns banaki then he would own everyone

davidn15

01-28-2007, 07:27 PM

if mayuri didn't have that he'd be one of the weakest. i want to see yamamoto in some serious action really bad

Zack_jenkins

01-28-2007, 07:30 PM

yeah i agree i want yamamoto to be put ina situation where he needs to use bakai that would be sweeeeeeet

davidn15

01-28-2007, 07:33 PM

his shikai was pretty big, his bankai could probably take out seretei

Zack_jenkins

01-28-2007, 07:50 PM

yeah.... i would liek to see him fight aizen.. that would be liek the ultimate high power fight.... it would be like 2 gods duking it out... man i wish we could see that... but chances are we never will... chances are ichigo is going to fight aizen

Houdenji

01-28-2007, 08:35 PM

Kenpachi is a little smarter than people give him credit for. His ability to come out on top of the fight with Tousen shows he's got at least some intelligence. He generally perfers to just duke it out, instead.

And I noticed a lot of people saying that Tousen could have just ran Kenpachi through and that would have been that. It's not as easy as all that. We already know that Kenpachi does have a bit of physical resiliance above some of the other captains. and running somebody through around the ribs is actually pretty difficult already, Tousen did get serious toward the end, and even when he did actually stab Kenpachi, it was in the stomach where it is much easier to actually go all the way through. I seriously doubt Tousen could have finished Kenpachi off in one stroke, but maybe.

I still think Kenpachi is pretty far down on the list, middle at best. He's just not as bad as some people are making him out to be.

Mayuri would probably still lose to certain captains; Yama, obviously, most likely Ukitake and Shunsui, and I think simply because of the nature of Byakuya's Zanpakuto powers that he'd win. Soi Fong could go either way. It's possible that Mayuri has studied all of the other captains in depth and has a counter poison for her, then yes, he could win. But if a poison sample was unavailable to him, then it comes down to who gets the first few hits. If Mayuri can get a hit early on, then he's probably got it, but that would be pretty difficult considering Soi Fong's speed. So that one could go either way. Mayuri would probably take the rest of the captains. *maybe* Hitsugaya could win if he didn't mess around and goes straight for Bankai. Keep Mayuri at a range and fly above the poison of Kojiki Ashozi Jizo. Eh... who knows.

yeah.... i would liek to see him[Kenpachi] fight aizen.. that would be liek the ultimate high power fight.... it would be like 2 gods duking it out... man i wish we could see that... but chances are we never will... chances are ichigo is going to fight aizen

laff.

Kuroi Getsuga Tenshou

01-28-2007, 08:57 PM

before i get to certain conclusions it's far better to wait and see Shunsui,Ukitake and Unohana in action!! I really want to see them we'll probably have a lower chance of seeing Unohana in action since her squads focuses more on medical assisting and thing like that! but still I wanna see her!

frbbls

01-28-2007, 09:21 PM

Well do consider Mayuri has an arsenal of inventions to back up his lack of real combat prowess.
Like the instant regeneration injection.

DFlux

01-28-2007, 09:29 PM

Another thing I'm wondering... why is Ukitake so ill? I mean, he's got tuberculosis, after all. We have cures for this, nowadays. So either his weakness is permanent in Soul Society, or they just really need to get with the times. It's a shame for one of the best captains to go out of commission just because he's coughing up blood.

Undying

01-29-2007, 06:58 PM

Heh, I still don't get why people put Zaraki high =/. He's cool and all, sometimes, but he's not the strongest or even close to that. Even if he achieves bankai. Why? because his bankai will be something physical and probably with no proper defence, so the things stay as they are. Anyone who thinks will beat him. (of course you need some power, too, but you have to be ab;e to think, first).

As for Ukitake, I don't think he can cure his illness. One reason might be that Soul Society doesn't have a cure for that, and living cures don't affect the dead (harhar).

Or (and this is I think the real reason) his illness is meant for plot usage, for example him getting beat because of it.

Phasmatis

01-29-2007, 11:26 PM

I'd say that Mayuri is very close to the top. Judging by the fact that his opponents generally have no idea what he is capable of, and the amount of damage he can take without dying. Than, coupled with all of his little tricks (that chameleon-paint trick is sweet), he makes a tough opponent. Kenpachi has such a great Reiatsu, he is probably high up there as well. Tousen seems kind of low to me, since he basically can't do a thing to Kenpachi even WITH his Bankai.

My opinion, anyways.

Gettles

01-30-2007, 08:14 AM

It is pretty hard to effectively rank the captains considering so much of what we have to argue with is pure speculation. The fact is the only Captain vs Captain fights we have to work with (which are the only true way of establishing where one Cap stands compared to another are Yanamoto vs Shunsui and Uketaki (where Yana had a definite advantage), Gin vs Hitsugaya (No decision), Kenpachi vs Tousen (Kenpachi winning), and Konamura vs Aizen(Aizen). Beyond that we have very little to work with.

I'm just going to add my two cents to who I feel are the more debatable of the positions, Kenpachi and Mayuri.

Kenpachi is interesting. Due to the his lack even a Shikai he is the only Captain without any form of special ability to fall back on. Despite this he still manages to be a very formidable foe due to his freakish endurance and tolerance for pain combined with extraordinary reitsu and physical strength. Furthermore, although rarely shown he is surprisingly intelligent(or at least effectively resourceful) he is also a very capable swordsmen(he was able to simultaneously take on both Konamura and Tousen in a swordfight without either of them being able to get a hit in on him). All things considered he is a very dangerous fight to any close range fighter(the exception being Soi Fong, who can circumvent his endurance). Meanwhile people with a powerful mid to long range attack have an advantage against him (although it can be debated how effective Gin would be against Kenpachi.) Overall, I would say he falls as a solid mid-tier captain. I also feel the need to add, that of the Captains, he has by far the most potential for growth and it is not unreasonable to think that he could potentially advance to rival the likes of Shunsui or even old man Yanamoto himself.

The other debatable one I feel is Mayuri. He strikes me as a true wild card. On one hand, his poisons and his swords ability to induce paralysis added to his enhancements to himself (such as his extending arm and regenerative medicines) are very powerful and make him a major threat. But at the same time, he appears to be hampered by physical limitations. His strength seems below average, his reitsu unimpressive, his skill with a sword unremarkable (this is a major setback as his sword cannot induce paralysis should he be unable to land a blow). This leaves us with an interesting problem. As powerful as his weapon is he is limited in most other regards. Against close range fighters he falls short as it calls into question his ability to land a blow against more skilled swordsmen. Against longer ranged enemies he is also at a disadvantage. He is shown he is more than willing to fight dirty, but at the same time his tricks are much less likely to work against more experienced fighters than Ishida. Using Nemu to restrain his opponent isn't likely to be effective against someone like Soi Fong or Byakuya who are far too fast for her to catch up to, or the likes of Kenpachi or Konamura who can easily over power her. As deadly as his Bankai's poison is, it is slow acting and gives other more than enough time to retaliate, should he ever survive long enough to use bankai.

This leaves us with an interesting situation with Mayuri who seems like he could easily fall anywhere between high-mid tier to low tier.

Zack_jenkins

01-30-2007, 02:30 PM

i agree gettles... mayuri is an interesting captain while he doesnt seem to have the prowess to take on other captains he is still strong in his own sense.... he can regenerate anything maing him very versitile and hard to beat no matter how long the fight goes on... and even if soi fong was to land a hit with suzumbachi he could easily just go liquid form and escape making it completely pointless to continue the fight.... so in conclusion if he was to go bankai then infect an opponent with the poison he could easily just escape and let the poison ill them off....

kenpachi definately isnt high tier nor is he low tier he is near the middle but feared by most becaseu of his extremely high riatsu and durability... he could by no means beat yamamoto or shunsui or ukitake.... i belive it would be a close match between him and byakuya becasue fo the fact that he is able to use his high riatsu to stop people from cutting him.... so if he was able to unleash all his riatsu then byakuya might not een be able to cut him maing it very hard for byakuya to win... i personally wouldnt put him above byakuya because of byakuya talent in the kido arts.... like renji said when he was fighting byakuya it was amzing how he could get soo much power out of a middle class kido spell without the incantation.... imagine byakuya using a high class kido spell with incantation... i belive e could wipe out most captain level people with an attack liek that

Kuroi Getsuga Tenshou

01-30-2007, 05:17 PM

but he's not the strongest or even close to that. Even if he achieves bankai. Why? because his bankai will be something physical and probably with no proper defence, so the things stay as they are.
Yeah that's true. since your Bankai represent's your Soul's will and whatever personality you have will resemble in it! Since Ichigo needed alot of power and speed in a short amount of time....he got himself Tensa Zangetsu! well back to the topic, I' have yet to see what Mayuri's Bankai will actually do against an Espada, last time we really saw him use his Bankai was against A Quincy (Ishida) but probably he couldn't use it effectively since quincy's are wide range type fighters (from far away)!

jonat3

01-30-2007, 05:25 PM

Actually, surprisingly enough Zaraki isn't offense based. His strength lies more in defense. All of Zaraki's power come from his own soul. He hardly uses any of the reiatsu from his zanpakutou. Which is why Zaraki's defense against attacks is so high. When Zaraki attacks, he's using his own reiatsu, not that of his zanpakutou.

If Zaraki manages to have bankai, it will be similar to Ichigo that it will probably be energy based, but it will probably be defensive in nature.

Undying

01-30-2007, 06:06 PM

Hmm...

Let's go and look at random shit to have something to write over here...

First, Tousen. Actually I'd rank him near the high people. Why? Because mr. Tousen's bankai can be an instant win.

If he weren't stupid (and if Kubo-sensei wouldn't have wanted ot show Zaraki owning for the fans), he's have beaten Zaraki at once. He can cut him easily enough, and one stab through the neck is enough. Zaraki can't survive a stab through the neck anymore than anyone can.

Next random fight we look at, Zaraki VS Ichigo. I know, I know, Ichigo maun character yada yada yada. But let's see, as soon as Ichigo gained his full power he almost beat Zaraki.

Some people would argue against it saying, Zaraki wasn't using his zanpakto's reiatsu, but I ask, what proof is there that Zaraki's zanpakto supplies him with more reiatsu, as does Zangetsu? I haven't seen anything to point to that - in fact, given Zaraki's crazy personality, I bet it will be something defensive like jonat3 said, or just a bigger weapon (like Ikkaku's shikai and bankai).

Also, Kenpachi's "awesome reiatsu", which as we saw is pretty much nothing against captain level opponents when it comes to defense.

He may be able to resist shikai-level attacks rather well, but that's because his sword is already released (even if it's not completely released because he doesn't know the name). So stop putting him to high, he's at an automatic disatvantage against all captains because he lacks bankai :o.

Also, Mayuri, his abilities and so on put him against some opponents, but not all. If he tried to use Nemu, any sensible captain would slice through her (can you imagine Byakuya really letting her grab him?). So that's ineffective.

His "inventions" cannot possible be superior to a zanpakto, so using them won't be effective (unless of course he has something to make it harder on his opponent to fight, like creating smokescreens and so on, which will prove useful, but not necessarily a great advantage).

However, his shikai and bankai already give him a huge advatage, because as a rule nobody is fast enough to get in and kill him and get out without breathing in his poison from the bankai. His hiskai is slightly less useful but against melee based opponents (like Zaraki, Hitsugaya, Tousen, Komamura), it would prove extremely effective.

Basically like was already mentioned, Mayuri is excellent VS melee fighters (provided their speed is not beyond super and allows them to get in, land a killing stroke and get out with taking a single breath), but sucks against ranged fighters because his bankai's effectiveness is greately decreased and his shikai becomes virtually useless.

So let's look at it this way, to properly rank the captains we need to know their abilities first...

[/rant mode off]

Motorola

01-31-2007, 05:56 AM

In the end, Zaraki Kenpachi owns all. You can not just say that Tousen could have easily stabbed him. Again, Ichigo could have also killed Byakuya in an instant, so saying that is nonsense. Remember now, Zaraki owns by himself seeing as every other shinigamis fight in pairs.

Zaraki FTW.

Zack_jenkins

01-31-2007, 11:17 PM

omg how are people still saying stuff liek this.... zaraki is by no emans the most powerful captain.... people would say that becasue they are zaraki fans... not becasue they actually look at facts.... i like zaraki alot better than most of the captains hes prolly my 3rd fav captain but that doesnt make him the strongest he is by no means low tier and by no means the best... high middle tier at best

EndlessSky

02-01-2007, 12:43 AM

I thought we weren't suppose to post things like , "Zaraki owns all", and "Zaraki FTW" and provide actually reason and information.

Also, I don't care how cool you think Zaraki is, or what, it is not gonna make him the strongest captain or strongest guy in Bleach, the name is given to the one who loves battle the most, not nessicarly the strongest.

I guess Ichigo beating him with not even bankai isnt good enough for people.

Zulehan

02-01-2007, 12:48 AM

RE: Ichimaru v. Hitsugaya

Houdenji,

I agree with you that Hitsugaya had the upper hand, but I'm not convinced that Ichimaru, though making a cowardly or desperate move after Hitsugaya froze one of his hands/arms, and obviously having been surprised and not having so much fun the whole way through, was commited in seriousness the way you would be if you truly felt that your life hung in the balance. Certainly he felt his life in danger when Hitsugaya "tagged" him much to his surprise after the ice dragon that was sent at him was "cancelled", but I don't think he felt it was nearly over. If it weren't for the convenience of Hinamori being in proximity and an easy target, I believe he would have then committed himself in seriousness at this point and probably even immediately released bankai.

Gin does have a bankai, right? I'm under the impression that, of all the current captains, only Zaraki is without one.

Zack_jenkins

02-01-2007, 02:39 AM

well gins bankai has never been shown in the manga/anime but it has been shown in a few games (not sure if it is actually his bankai or w/e but this si wut i read) it involves him shooting his sword straight into the sky like his shikai... but instead of it just shooting up there it makes thousands of swords extend down around him striking his opponent... i believe that may be wut they make his bankai as... bt more controlable like after shooting it being able to regulate the number of swords and the area in which they are brought down

gdo01

02-01-2007, 02:46 AM

Motorola

02-01-2007, 05:01 AM

I'm sorry that Kenpachi was labeled the strongest Captain. I don't know why people keep denying the fact that his strength is incomparable amongst the other captains. He has the most spirit power among the captains. He even uses a patch to LIMIT HIS OWN POWER. LMFAO, He is too powerful. You can take the fastest guy in the world and put him up against the strongest guy in the world. Most likely the fast guy will be puny as hell; his arse would get smashed in an instant. STRENGTH, BABY. STRENGTH.

Now, I don't like Kenpachi the most out of the Captains. I probably like him just as much as Byakuya or Hitsugaya just because they look cool; however, Kenpachi is strong as hell, homie.

Zack_jenkins

02-01-2007, 05:31 AM

ok so wut if he has the strongest riatsu... he lacks any long range abilities for one... meaning a long range fighter with high speed could kill him in an instant... like say byakuya... second of all there is yamamoto... he is definately stronger than kenpachi or else he wouldnt be captain commander... kenpachi doesnt take orders from anyone who is weaker than him... thats just how he is ..... guess wut... he takes orders from yama-jii... thats proof right there he isnt the strongest... i agree he is high up there... prolly 5th or 6th... but no way is he higher... first off yama-jii he leads them all meaning he is indeed strongest... secondly yamamoto said that shunsui and kyoraku couldnt be matched on the battle field by anybody old or young... guess wut that means kenpachi.... and lastly... byakuya is an amazingly high level kido user meaning not only can he use high powersword tecniques he also has kido to fall back on... renji said it himself it was amazing how byakuya could create such amazing power from a mid level kido spell with no incantation... soo therfore kenpachi could by no means be the strongest captain of them all... until you give everyone here solid proof that kenpachi could beat yamamoto then we will all prolly agree... kenpachi isnt the strongest

jonat3

02-01-2007, 05:39 AM

While Zaraki is strong, he's not the strongest. He has the MOST potential out of all of them (except for maybe Hitsugaya). I agree on one thing and one thing only. Zaraki is the strongest of all the captains......if we are talking about personal strength.

A shinigami's strength is based on 3 things:

- Personal strength, which would be the reiatsu from the plus soul itself
- Zanpakutou strength, which would be the souls will to fight. I believe the strengths between zanpakutou can differ as well
- Cooperation between shinigami and zanpakutou

If we compare him to Ichigo, Zaraki's personal strength is far greater, but Ichigo's cooperation with his zanpakutou is superior. I also happen to think that the reiatsu of Ichigo's zanpakutou happens to be above that of other swords. Some zanpakutou, like those of Komamura are so strong they can shatter the ground, yet other zanpakutou are incapable of doing so. If individual souls can vary in power, it would be logical to assume the same holds true for zanpakutou's as well, since a zanpakutou is part of the soul afterall and each and every one of them is different.

Zaraki's personal strength is exceptional, perhaps the highest of all the captains. As for his zanpakutou, i think its power is below that of Zangetsu (and maybe even Komamura), but it could potentially still be a powerful sword above the average.

While Zaraki's personal strength may be the highest, his overall abilities still make Zaraki only between average captain level and mid-captain level (like Byakuya). He's strong enough to beat normal captains, but Byakuya is atleast 5-10 times stronger than him when using bankai.

Zack_jenkins

02-01-2007, 06:28 AM

jonat3

02-01-2007, 07:06 AM

well all that is a good point except for the stuff about komamura... see when he hits the ground and it shatters the earth its not the sword itself it is his intiial release... which makes a giant sword appear and swing at the same rate as komamura.... soo yeah his is very powerful and also he is as a person... i mean look at him a 7 foot tall racoon dog.... yeah i think if i saw one in real life i wouldnt be messing with it....

No, Komamura destroyed the ground with the spiritual pressure of his sword BEFORE he used his shikai. Zaraki himself stated that it was an impressive feat to be able to do that.

If i think about it, it's not so surprising that Komamura's sword is so powerful. If a zanpakutou is a shinigami's will to fight, animals in particular are pretty ferocious. So someone like Komamura is bound to have a powerful sword.

Motorola

02-01-2007, 10:25 AM

Yamamoto is not a Captain; he is the commander of the 13 squads. If I remember clearly, I stated that Kenpachi is the strongest captain. He has the most reiatsu, thus making him beastly stronger than other captains. Although he may not have the best fighting abilities, he is by far the STRONGEST. I'm not saying that all the other captains are a walk in the park for him. Of course each captain has their strengths and weaknesses; however, if we compare pure power, Kenpachi wins.

Habanero

02-01-2007, 11:45 AM

Euhm... Yamamoto IS the captain of the first division. Zaraki may have the most reiatsu excluding yamamoto, and yes he would probably win everyone else if they had "un-released" fights. But using all their abilities, I'm fairly sure few captains would mop the floor with him :whatevah:

DFlux

02-02-2007, 02:04 AM

Yup, Yamamoto is Captain-Commander, meaning his is both a captain and commander of the captains.

As was said, you can have tons of reiatsu but like Ichigo in the early days, if you can't control it, it will hardly be of benefit to you. Look at Aizen. He has MASSIVE reiatsu but he holds it back without help from the leeching eyepatch. Therefore, Kenpachi would have trouble using that reiatsu AGAINST anyone, maybe for defense.

Zack_jenkins

02-02-2007, 02:06 AM

wow all the facts proving that kenpachi is nowhere near the strongest captain and people still belive he is the strongest.... its amazing

kingofheartskj

02-02-2007, 06:38 AM

wow all the facts proving that kenpachi is nowhere near the strongest captain and people still belive he is the strongest.... its amazing

I agree. It is actually kind of sad. Kenpachi is by far my favorite captain but only because of his personality. I do not believe he is the strongest captain but i also would never place him down at the bottom few on the list either like the op.

As a fan though I will post a few things in regards to zaraki.

Many people will say that since Ichigo beat Kenpachi before he ever had bankai that Kenpachi is weaker than Byakuya since Byakuya was on equal grounds with Ichigo at that time. I will comment on this first. During that whole fight it is clear that Kenpachi is not trying until the last blow and at that point he had let Ichigo hit him a ridiculous amount. Not to mention Ichigo wouldn't have survived that fight without the mask as is stated by Yoruichi. But Ichigo still had higher power in bankai than in shikai right? No. Never is it stated that Ichigo's power increased when he went bankia. In fact all I believe is said about his bankai is from Byakuya and I think he said something along the lines of "So you compressed your reitsu in order to improve your speed'. Ichigo's power never increased so much as his speed did. He merely was faster with the same strength. So it is a fair argument to say that the power level of Ichigo's final attack vs. Byakuya was the same level as his final attack vs Kenpachi since he stated vs Byakuya he was pouring all of his power into that one attack and when he fought Kenpachi he told Zangetsu to use ALL of his power. Key word, "ALL". What made Ichigo fall at the end of both fights wasn't neccessarily the damage he recieved but the fact he used all of his power and thus was completely drained.

Next some would say that Byakuya's abilities are stronger than Kenpachi's (or lack there of). Kenpachi's body can take a hell of a beating. It isn't because of just physical prowess. It is the same reason Ichigo can take such a beating. All that reitsu in his body blankets him from force of many attacks. Ganju (weak I know), Renji, and other's took Byakuya's Shikai and Bankai respectively without dying. Granted they may have died without medical treatment right away they still survived initially. Ichigo took Byakuya's bankai and didn't get cut up. He merely got slammed into the ground. Yes he did take SOME damage but he didn't have blood come from all over his body like Renji. It can be inferred that Kenpachi can take a harder hit than Ichigo. Also if Kenpachi takes off his eye patch who is to say he couldn't stop the petals completely?

I know it has been stated that reitsu cannot stop a captain level attack alone. This has not been completely proven though. When Byakuya and Ichigo are fighting before Ichigo goes bankai he fires zangetsu at Byakuya as Byakuya is using his Shikai. We see it hit Byakuya but we never know if it blew the petals away or not. Perhaps the hit just hit byakuya and distracted him from completing his attack or maybe it blew it away. Some would say that reitsu can't stop a attack but we do know that reitsu and Byakuya's attack can make contact since he uses the petals to block Zangetsu's attacks. Since Zangetsu's shots are merely a high mass of reitsu it can be then inferred that reitsu can in fact stop Byakuya's attack if you have enough. Thus Zaraki without his eye patch could possibly stop the onslought from Byakuya.

What about Byakuya's speed? Well I won't go into this as much. We know Kenpachi has quick hands and reactions. The way he was avoiding fatal blows in split seconds against Tousen shows his reactions are far greater than people give him credit for. We also have seen he doesn't need to see his enemy to react.

I am tired and won't go further. There is always the fact that Byakuya also uses the magics and Kenpachi uses none but we have seen from the first episodes that raw power can break binding techniques and such so I won't bother talking about this.

I have stated I am a fan of Kenpachi and I may be biased but I have shown that he is quite capable of standing up to a captain like Byakuya. I think there are many other captains he could stand up to and even beat. The problem is you can't call him the strongest because of that. He has some qualities that just make it impossible to tell how effective he really can be. Some would say that his lack of thinking would get him killed and I tend to agree that a very smart enemy with the right abilities could take him out. The problem is we have seen him in 2 fights (I don't count filler arcs for nothing) so we have no idea how smart he really is in fights. You don't fight as much as him and for as many years without having some kind of fighting intellegance.

So I wish people would quit claiming he is so weak when it is impossible to tell lol.

I also wish the fanboys would stop saying he is the strongest because it is impossible to tell. I mean it is 99% true he is not as strong as Yama-jii because comon, the old man is the shit. Not to mention Aizen would eat Kenpachi. Other than those 2 captains there are too many "buts" or "what ifs" to determine what captain is where. My main point posting here was just to post that Kenpachi isn't as weak as some people like to say.

I do have a question though. Why does Mayuri act so afraid of Kenpachi in the SS arc. His abilities could give him the advantage vs Kenpachi IF he could hit him before Kenpachi landed a blow. (Kenpachi's blows could destroy an opponent.) Why does he always seem fearful of Kenpachi? Maybe it is just becuase Kenpachi is nuts.

One other thing that bothers me. I am starting up on the Manga because I want to see if Yachiru EVER shows any new peaks at her power. I have my own ideas of her strength level but I keep them to myself until I can actually see her do something.

7th captin

02-02-2007, 06:46 AM

what the hell is going on here :madfire:

who is messing with koma-koma:face82: <<<<<< can't blame him for being

komamura's fan:biggrinlo

why does everybody think that koma is weak? is it just because he ran from zaraki? or is it just that he was defeated by aizen?

u can't judge on something that u don't know.

do u know what are the abilities of his bankai? of course u don't because they didn't show it .... maybe he can merge with the giant armor and could turn everything to dust .

his shikai is so strong that aizen couldn't block it like he did with the hollow who tried to kill renji , kira , hisagi , hinamori .... and remember that he could see through aizen's illusion when he saw aizen is near tousen and near him.

so he could kill him before using kido but

he was surprised that he didn't know what to do.he survived from aizen's kido because he says that it's hard to control. now come on he is a captin of a squad that specialized in kido .

come to think of it i think aizen was out of reiatsu that he couldn't use it properly.

in the bount arc there is a shinigami who

was controlled by mabashi stabbed koma right through the heart and didn't shed one drop of blood because he has a strong reiatsu just like ichigo and zaraki.

im not saying that koma is the second or the third strongest captain . im saying that he is a strong captain.

not to mention that he is one of the oldest captains in the gotei 13 and he was in the days were aizen was still a vice captain so what i mean is that he has much experience and he is a personal guard for yammamoto.

zaraki isn't near the strongest captains in the gotei 13 . the fact is all the captains are equal except hitsugaya and unohana because from what i saw in the bount arc hitsugaya has a limited bankai because i saw that the crimson rings are starting to disappear and that made think that it's limited unless if it's like a count down for a powerful move.

about unohana i think that her zanpaktu is only used for healing so i can't say she is strong.

that's my opinion.

Habanero

02-02-2007, 11:14 AM

I'm sorry but... Is there a one fact right in the post above...?

I don't see a single claim that would actually be true :p

7th captin

02-02-2007, 11:29 AM

i didn't say it is true ... it's speculation.. beside we don't know a thing about komamura.

what about the bull$hits about zaraki that says he is the strongest captain? he was defeated by ichigo who only have a shikai not a bankai.

if ichigo fought zaraki with bankai he would easily been defeated.

same thing to komamura he would've squashed him like a bug.

for me all the captains are equal except unohana and hitsugaya cuz like i said unohana is a medical shinigami and hitsugaya ... hmmmm i don't know a thing about his bankai.

note: everything i said in the previous post is just my opinion and im not saying it's true. but some facts are true like the stabing fact

Habanero

02-02-2007, 03:02 PM

Ah okay... You just wrote it on informative style instead of speculative. Well, these forums have a tendecy to eat people alive who make unbacked-up comments :p

Nevermind then :)

jonat3

02-02-2007, 06:57 PM

I agree. It is actually kind of sad. Kenpachi is by far my favorite captain but only because of his personality. I do not believe he is the strongest captain but i also would never place him down at the bottom few on the list either like the op.

As a fan though I will post a few things in regards to zaraki.

Many people will say that since Ichigo beat Kenpachi before he ever had bankai that Kenpachi is weaker than Byakuya since Byakuya was on equal grounds with Ichigo at that time. I will comment on this first. During that whole fight it is clear that Kenpachi is not trying until the last blow and at that point he had let Ichigo hit him a ridiculous amount. Not to mention Ichigo wouldn't have survived that fight without the mask as is stated by Yoruichi.

So what? Ichigo was holding back as well. He begun fighting seriously after Zaraki pulled his eyepatch. And the hollows influence was only minimal. It only pulled out potential that was already there. Don't pay attention to plot kai or anything like that. Far simpler to compare them at their strongest. Ichigo without holding back and Zaraki without holding back both clashed against each other. It ended in a draw. Case closed.

But Ichigo still had higher power in bankai than in shikai right? No. Never is it stated that Ichigo's power increased when he went bankia. In fact all I believe is said about his bankai is from Byakuya and I think he said something along the lines of "So you compressed your reitsu in order to improve your speed'. Ichigo's power never increased so much as his speed did. He merely was faster with the same strength. So it is a fair argument to say that the power level of Ichigo's final attack vs. Byakuya was the same level as his final attack vs Kenpachi since he stated vs Byakuya he was pouring all of his power into that one attack and when he fought Kenpachi he told Zangetsu to use ALL of his power. Key word, "ALL". What made Ichigo fall at the end of both fights wasn't neccessarily the damage he recieved but the fact he used all of his power and thus was completely drained.

No, the manga pretty much proved that Ichigo's power in bankai increases as well. According to Isshin, if captain level shinigami use their sword without compressing it, it would have the size of a building. So every shinigami uses compression. Yet none of them gained a speedboost. Why is that? Because Ichigo uses a FAAAAR higher level of compression. He's not only reducing the size of his zanpakutou. He's reducing the 5-10 times increased energy as well. Make no mistake, it's not only speed that improves. If he only reduced the size of his zanpakutou, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to achieve such a huge speed difference.

Now, since his sword has a far greater density, it's attack power is increased as well. Heck, even the getsuga is stronger in bankai mode, because of the higher compression. No, Ichigo's bankai sword is simply at a different level compared to his shikai sword.

Next some would say that Byakuya's abilities are stronger than Kenpachi's (or lack there of). Kenpachi's body can take a hell of a beating. It isn't because of just physical prowess. It is the same reason Ichigo can take such a beating. All that reitsu in his body blankets him from force of many attacks. Ganju (weak I know), Renji, and other's took Byakuya's Shikai and Bankai respectively without dying. Granted they may have died without medical treatment right away they still survived initially. Ichigo took Byakuya's bankai and didn't get cut up. He merely got slammed into the ground. Yes he did take SOME damage but he didn't have blood come from all over his body like Renji. It can be inferred that Kenpachi can take a harder hit than Ichigo. Also if Kenpachi takes off his eye patch who is to say he couldn't stop the petals completely?

I somewhat agree here. Zaraki's defense is higher than Ichigo's. He should be able to shrug off Kageyoshi. But when Byakuya releases senkei or hakuteiken, Zaraki is simply dead meat. A match between Zaraki and Byakuya relies on a swordfight. Senkei had enough power not to be shattered by Ichigo's bankai sword. That's a testament to its power. Senkei would cut through Zaraki's sword like butter.

I know it has been stated that reitsu cannot stop a captain level attack alone. This has not been completely proven though. When Byakuya and Ichigo are fighting before Ichigo goes bankai he fires zangetsu at Byakuya as Byakuya is using his Shikai. We see it hit Byakuya but we never know if it blew the petals away or not. Perhaps the hit just hit byakuya and distracted him from completing his attack or maybe it blew it away. Some would say that reitsu can't stop a attack but we do know that reitsu and Byakuya's attack can make contact since he uses the petals to block Zangetsu's attacks. Since Zangetsu's shots are merely a high mass of reitsu it can be then inferred that reitsu can in fact stop Byakuya's attack if you have enough. Thus Zaraki without his eye patch could possibly stop the onslought from Byakuya.

See my point above.

What about Byakuya's speed? Well I won't go into this as much. We know Kenpachi has quick hands and reactions. The way he was avoiding fatal blows in split seconds against Tousen shows his reactions are far greater than people give him credit for. We also have seen he doesn't need to see his enemy to react.
I am tired and won't go further. There is always the fact that Byakuya also uses the magics and Kenpachi uses none but we have seen from the first episodes that raw power can break binding techniques and such so I won't bother talking about this.

That's because Zaraki has superior reiatsu than Tousen. The same thing can't be said of Byakuya.

I have stated I am a fan of Kenpachi and I may be biased but I have shown that he is quite capable of standing up to a captain like Byakuya. I think there are many other captains he could stand up to and even beat. The problem is you can't call him the strongest because of that. He has some qualities that just make it impossible to tell how effective he really can be. Some would say that his lack of thinking would get him killed and I tend to agree that a very smart enemy with the right abilities could take him out. The problem is we have seen him in 2 fights (I don't count filler arcs for nothing) so we have no idea how smart he really is in fights. You don't fight as much as him and for as many years without having some kind of fighting intellegance.
So I wish people would quit claiming he is so weak when it is impossible to tell lol.
I also wish the fanboys would stop saying he is the strongest because it is impossible to tell. I mean it is 99% true he is not as strong as Yama-jii because comon, the old man is the shit. Not to mention Aizen would eat Kenpachi. Other than those 2 captains there are too many "buts" or "what ifs" to determine what captain is where. My main point posting here was just to post that Kenpachi isn't as weak as some people like to say.
I do have a question though. Why does Mayuri act so afraid of Kenpachi in the SS arc. His abilities could give him the advantage vs Kenpachi IF he could hit him before Kenpachi landed a blow. (Kenpachi's blows could destroy an opponent.) Why does he always seem fearful of Kenpachi? Maybe it is just becuase Kenpachi is nuts.
One other thing that bothers me. I am starting up on the Manga because I want to see if Yachiru EVER shows any new peaks at her power. I have my own ideas of her strength level but I keep them to myself until I can actually see her do something.

Well, i do understand why you defend Zaraki. Heck, his power is indeed amazing. Just disagreed with you on his chances against Byakuya. Byakuya is just stronger than Zaraki. Period.

Jay3205

02-02-2007, 07:22 PM

Zaraki would lose against most captains because he does not have bankai. The other factors besides strength (such as speed, method of attack, and kidou prowess) would outweigh the fact that he can be cut up more than average without dying. On top of this, I doubt the shinigami limit is so high that Zaraki's reiatsu could be 10x that of another captain (thus equaling their bankai). Taking this into account, Zaraki is worst in just about every possible category of fighting except perhaps skill/experience and tolerance for pain.

Kuroi Getsuga Tenshou

02-02-2007, 09:32 PM

HOLD IT! there's seems to be alot of Zarakisisim and Zaraki-fanboys in here.....you all go and cool off and remeber the fact that Kenpachi got owned by Ichigo BEFORE he achieved Bankai, the only thing that backs up Zaraki is his Reiatsu nothing more nothing less, he got owned by Ichigo before even without he's eyepatch thing (you know the thing that supresses his reiatsu) there's hella uva' alot of Captains out there stronger than him, like : Shunsui, Ukitake, Yamamoto, Byakuya, and Ex captains, Aizen, Gin and Tousen yes Tousen can own him NOW, Blind people don't make the same mistake twice! then you have renegades like Urahara and Yoruichi, Ururu in her anti-shingami mode would scare the shit of out of him!!! then there's the Vaizards he's defenitely no match for Shinji, I bet even Hiyori could OWN him (hands up, hands down), and then there's still the Espadas and I bet that even Toushiro can own him too if he tries! unless he pulls out a *B* or *Shi* he won't even be in the top 30! he's someone that fights purely by Instinct, it's frightening too.....but there's more people popping up with Instinct then he has down there in HM!!!

Look I'm not trying to demotivate people that Like Zaraki Kenpachi because you have the freedom to like whatever character you wanna like! and of course you can be fan of whatever character you want to! but what you shouldn't do is state things that shouldn't be stated like makin your favorite character all powerfull god-like, like remember back in the days of DBZ there were alot of Kuririn, Yamcha, and Tien-Shinhan fans but by the time they got to Supersaiyan 2/3 even Piccolo was overlooked and it didn't mather anymore because it was all about saiyans from there and on!......just be carefull that's all I'm saying!