Renji vs. Ikakku [Archive]

Momentum

01-27-2007, 05:55 AM

This thread should have stated the anime Ikkaku or the manga Ikkaku. Believe me, it matters.

Definitely agree with you there...

Simply Renji would because he uses kidou and the her arts besudes just his sword like ikkaku does bankai or no bankai

Renji doesn't even use kidou...

Renji would win because of his bankai but Ikkaku isnt that bad but renji would win with his zebimaru!

Please explain? Not just because hes got Zabimaru..and it would be nice if you could read the rules...

Are we talking about the manga characters? If so I'm siding with Ikkaku, his bankai is destructive and the size is just unbelievable...Ok Renji's bankai has the ability to reconnect/disconnect right? Ikkaku can just keep swinging his massive weapon around deflecting Zabimaru and eventually Renji's reiatsu will likely to run out because he does use reiatsu to control Zabimaru right? Renji might even put up a good fight but he'll lose...

Give me good reasons how Renji could win then I'll side with him...

sham16

01-27-2007, 02:31 PM

Ok... I voted for Renji since I am still behind in the manga section but finished the anime. But if you ar talking about the Renji in Anime no contest on Ikkaku but if your talking about Ikkaku and his Bankai ill have to get back on you on this one since I have ot yet been able to reach that part yet.

Kay™

01-27-2007, 02:40 PM

its obvious renji win....he manage to touch byakuya and what ikkaku done? nothin impresive as i see(in manga) well in movie.....different story then......

Mitsuketa

01-27-2007, 08:26 PM

Yeah, Renji would most likely win but Ikkaku it would probably be a LONG fight

Momentum

01-27-2007, 09:23 PM

its obvious renji win....he manage to touch byakuya and what ikkaku done? nothin impresive as i see(in manga) well in movie.....different story then......

Managed to touch Byakuya? Yeah...his sword was cut before he was able to do so and plus Byakuya didn't even get a single scratch....I mean Renji didn't even make him bleed, so I wouldn't say he was able to touch Byakuya. I know he made Byakuya kneel for a second but that meant nothing. Are you even up-to date with the manga? Have you seen Ikakku's bankai? Are you not impressed?

dragado123

01-28-2007, 07:37 PM

Axdsilva

01-28-2007, 08:08 PM

People are only saying Renji, cause he's been in the spotlight more, but Ikkaku, has only shown his Bankai once, after resorting to try not to use it. He tried not using his shikai, so he got so bloddied up because of that.

davidn15

01-28-2007, 08:10 PM

abari's bankai has more reach

Axdsilva

01-28-2007, 08:12 PM

But not much speed, Ikkaku has more agility with his.

Rihaku

01-28-2007, 09:42 PM

We could compare Renji and Ikkaku's shikai performances against Ichigo. This has the elegant advantage of sidestepping the whole Bankai thing - I think it's safe to assume that if one person's Shikai performance is stronger, their respective Bankai performance would be proportional.

Consider Ichigo and Renji's battle versus Ichigo and Ikkaku's. Not much of a contest there. Note that Ichigo had to go silver-eyed to defeat Renji, while he wasn't really trying against Ikkaku.

Setsuna Ai

01-28-2007, 11:08 PM

wow my post got deleted from days ago.WOW

Anyways I don't think it's a valid argument to make Renji's bankai proportional to ihs shikai. TRUE it's STRONGER. but he hasn't mastered it. When you have a flame that you can't control, then you're the one who's going to burn. A much more controlled and mastered bankai is a good advantage. You can throw the flame at the enemy while he's getting pwned by his.

Momentum

01-29-2007, 03:44 AM

I say Ikkaku because

he does have more experience with bankai plus Renji asked him himself to become a captain after Aizen and the other 2 captain left. The only reason why he doesn't want to be a captain is because he wants to fight with Zaraki
And so yea thats is the main reason why Ikkaku would win. Even though i think it will be a somewhat close match.

Yep, if you guys think that Renji is stronger than Ikakku then why doesn't he become a captain himself rather than telling Ikakku to be one? (that MIGHT be sign meaning Ikakku is stronger than him...)

Consider Ichigo and Renji's battle versus Ichigo and Ikkaku's. Not much of a contest there. Note that Ichigo had to go silver-eyed to defeat Renji, while he wasn't really trying against Ikkaku.

Just because he lost to Ichigo doesn't mean he'll lose to Renji...

Anyways I don't think it's a valid argument to make Renji's bankai proportional to ihs shikai. TRUE it's STRONGER. but he hasn't mastered it. When you have a flame that you can't control, then you're the one who's going to burn. A much more controlled and mastered bankai is a good advantage. You can throw the flame at the enemy while he's getting pwned by his.

Exactly Ikakku has more control over his bankai while...well Renji doesn't have that much control over his...

Oja777

01-29-2007, 04:18 PM

I suppose Ikkaku for the same reason that he knows how to use his bankai and it looks more bad ass.

http://gaarex.blog.jeuxvideo.com/images/mn/1146492280.jpg

BWoods

01-30-2007, 04:13 AM

I think the battle comes down to how long it lasts. If he manages to keep the fight short and overwhealm his opponent, Renji definatly has the advantage. Renji has shown the ability to release his Shikai without calling Zabimaru's name. Which gives him an advantage when he goes for his Bankai release.

He is also the better rounded fighter of the two, his swordsmanship isn't as good as Ikkaku, nore is his strength, but he is more practiced in Kidou since Zaraki bars the 11th division from using it, and I'd give the defensive nod to Renji as well, since ikkaku's bankai foregoes defense and speed and puts much of it's strength into attack power.

BUT! If the fight were to last longer than a few blows (say a 2 or 3 minute fight) then the advantage slides towards Ikkaku. His swordsmanship is nearly unmatched by anyone else in the series, his style doesn' t make room for error (using both the sheath and sword, switching hands, keepng his timing between attacks.) When he uses his Shikai, his abilities only increase. Then Bankai, this is were he is head and shoulders better than Renji.

Renji's Bankai eats a massive amount of Reitsu to be able to use, and since he hasn't mastered it, he wastes energy whenever he attacks or even moves it. Ikkaku on the other hand, has trained with his Bankai (I even believe he was the one that 1) tought Renji how to fight and 2) tought Renji how to obtain Bankai) and knows it inside out. And when the dye is released from it's blade, it's attack power increses. Though Zabimaru can take a hit and still be usable, it was totally thrown out of whack by Byakuya using a kidou in which he skipped the chant. Imagine what kind of damage Ikkaku's bankai would do to it.

My pick would be Ikkaku.

Gettles

01-30-2007, 05:23 AM

You people mentioning ability at Kido while making Renji's case could very well be significantly overstating his ability. I do not believe we have ever seen him so much as attempt any kind of spell. Remember, although he was in 5th it was for a very brief time before being transfered to 11th, where Kido is frowned upon. This is where he was taught most of his ability in combat (by Ikkaku no less) and their philosophy towards combat has with out question influenced him.
His time in 6th is also a non factor as he has been there for no longer than five months during which it is doubtful he could have become adapt enough at kido for it to have any meaningful outcome in a fight against someone of Ikkaku's skill.

L'Arc Enzeru

01-30-2007, 07:00 AM

I bet Renji win altough Ikkaku's Ban kai has big destruction power.

Rihaku

01-30-2007, 07:04 AM

Well, we don't know how powerful Ikkaku would be if bound by a Binding Art 1 for even a fraction of a second. Since he has no defenses immobolization would be death against an opponent as large as Zabimaru.

Momentum

01-30-2007, 07:07 AM

Once again, Renji DOESN'T I MEAN DOESN'T use kidou...

Kay™

01-30-2007, 07:12 AM

hmmm renji will win.....since he has a bankai and also ikkaku doesnt have and for those shinigami without bankai to win shinigami with bankai is to have a high amount of reitsu ex:zaraki and i don see ikkaku have a high reitsu..so renji will win

Momentum

01-30-2007, 07:16 AM

Omg Ikakku Has Bankai Ffs...

BWoods

01-30-2007, 07:42 PM

Ikkaku does have a Bankai. It drastically increases his attack power and when it's released it begins to release a dye out of a dragon etching on the main blade's side. When the dye is emptied then the full destructive power of the Bankai is released.

*Hopes he got the description right, hasn't read that manga chapter in a while*

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/5341/up715429vl3cziz4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

5000

01-30-2007, 07:43 PM

Abari Renji well win so esay!

Night Prowler

01-31-2007, 01:29 AM

Ikakku easierly.

He's Bankai is easy to use and he can carry on as long as he wants where Renji cant last longer than 5 minutes without it falling apart.

And the reason why he lost to Ichigo is 'cause he knows his high reiatsu level would be found out and he knows that Zenpachi would want to fight him and he doesn't want to fight him he wants to serve him.

Momentum

01-31-2007, 04:01 AM

Abari Renji well win so esay!

Please explain how? And ffs people stop the spam...

And the reason why he lost to Ichigo is 'cause he knows his high reiatsu level would be found out and he knows that Zenpachi would want to fight him and he doesn't want to fight him he wants to serve him.

Another good reason...(Thank you Night_Prowler for bringing this up)

Jay3205

01-31-2007, 04:20 PM

Ikkaku would probably win because it is essentially power vs. power in which Ikkaku would have the advantage. On top of this, Renji's bankai attacks in fairly obvious ways (i.e. head on or swiping to the side) where Ikkaku can use swordsmanship to make things much more difficult to defend against.

However, I think Ikkaku is not quite as strong as he is given credit for. Ichigo barely had Renji's level of strength when he entered Soul Society, but he managed to beat Ikkaku without much injury. Ikkaku should be able to use VC level strength (but not bankai) without Zaraki wanting to challenge him.

Undying

01-31-2007, 07:42 PM

However, I think Ikkaku is not quite as strong as he is given credit for. Ichigo barely had Renji's level of strength when he entered Soul Society, but he managed to beat Ikkaku without much injury. Ikkaku should be able to use VC level strength (but not bankai) without Zaraki wanting to challenge him.
And the reason why he lost to Ichigo is 'cause he knows his high reiatsu level would be found out and he knows that Zenpachi would want to fight him and he doesn't want to fight him he wants to serve him.
Like already said... Ikkaku wasn't going all out on Ichigo.

Now as for the fight, I say Ikkaku. Ikkaku's bankai makes him just stronger (the effect is just amplify his direct power, without anything else), so he should be able to break through Renji's bankai and reach him. Since Renji's weapon will take some time to reform, Ikkaku's bankai, which has the advantage of being multiple weapons, will hit Abarai, and probably kill him.

But still, Renji's bankai has a longer reach and can move quite quickly, and also Renji would probably not remain immobile while flailing his snake around.

Also, Renji's bankai has abilities, and without knowing them, we can't really measure.

Ikkaku's bankai just keeps on making him stronger and stronger.

Kisuke Urahara

02-12-2007, 12:40 PM

I think Renji has this, I think Ikkaku is high vice-captain level, while Renji is low captain level, Renji has this, even if it is close.

Momentum

02-13-2007, 03:51 AM

I think Renji has this, I think Ikkaku is high vice-captain level, while Renji is low captain level, Renji has this, even if it is close.

It'll be more understandable if you can explain why Renji has this...

captainmawaluigi

02-13-2007, 06:07 AM

Basically mobility. I am not sure if you guys watched the Filler, but Renjis Bankai can not only move around, but attack on its own. Baldy could not defend all of the attacks, and the cannon beam attack that Renji has, and thats what it basically comes down to. Renji killing Baldy before Baldy goes into superpower mode......if Baldy can go into super power mode, then maybe he would beat Renji. Renji is also kinda weak at kidou, but I am sure a surprise shot or two could take Baldy off guard.

Momentum

02-14-2007, 02:43 AM

Renji never NEVER uses kidou and what cannon beam attack are you talking about??

Kyouka Suigetsu

02-14-2007, 03:26 AM

Renji never NEVER uses kidou and what cannon beam attack are you talking about??

*cough* manga *cough* Baboon Bone Cannon

Kisuke Urahara

02-14-2007, 07:07 PM

Honjo

02-14-2007, 08:40 PM

It's a tough one, but in my case I would have to say Renji, after all he did manage to force out byakuya's bankai and block his senka, something I doubt ikkaku could do, and something that Ichigo couldn't do until achieving a captain level of power, not only that but Ichigo was fairly pushed to beat Renji, being seriously wounded in the process.

koolspot

02-14-2007, 09:03 PM

Anime Ikkaku cant beat renji... but manga ikkaku can...

Momentum

02-15-2007, 02:58 AM

Renji has achieved bankai at quite a high level, and though Ikkaku has too, Renji has experience as a vice-captain and has been working very hard to defeat Byakuya and even forces Byakuya touse bankai when they fought, To me, i think Renji has enough Bankai attacks and experience to pull this off

Yet Byakuya still raped him without even getting injured...

It doesn't matter if Ikakku is not yet a VC hes good enough to be Captain. But chooses not to because he wants to serve Zaraki. Ikakku still has more experience than Renji...

Yep, if you guys think that Renji is stronger than Ikakku then why doesn't he become a captain himself rather than telling Ikakku to be one? (that MIGHT be sign meaning Ikakku is stronger than him...)

Sigh quoting my own post in case you guys don't read the posts from the past...

It's a tough one, but in my case I would have to say Renji, after all he did manage to force out byakuya's bankai and block his senka, something I doubt ikkaku could do, and something that Ichigo couldn't do until achieving a captain level of power, not only that but Ichigo was fairly pushed to beat Renji, being seriously wounded in the process.

Well of course Renji was able to block Byakuya's Flash Blossom he has been around with Byakuya for quite a long time hasn't he?

Honjo

02-15-2007, 10:31 AM

Yet Byakuya still raped him without even getting injured...
It doesn't matter if Ikakku is not yet a VC hes good enough to be Captain. But chooses not to because he wants to serve Zaraki. Ikakku still has more experience than Renji...
Sigh quoting my own post in case you guys don't read the posts from the past...
Well of course Renji was able to block Byakuya's Flash Blossom he has been around with Byakuya for quite a long time hasn't he?
Of course Renji didn't stand a chance against byakuya, but that has little to do with whether Renji could beat ikkaku, the very thought of ikkaku fighting byakuya makes me cringe, I mean skill wise he lost to a relatively weak Ichigo, and considering the fact that at the time Renji didn't possess Bankai himself, I think it's fair to say that over the course of time Renji has simply surpassed Ikkaku.
I dont think just having Bankai makes Ikkaku strong enough to be a captain just yet, as Renji also has Bankai yet obviously isn't as strong as any of the current captains, also having more experience doesn't mean more strength, a point bleach constantly pushes as the series continues.
True, Renji has probably seen senka more then anyone else due to him being his VC, but I think it's unlikely that renji can only see byakuya's senka and can't see anything of equal speed from anyone else.

h0f5

02-15-2007, 12:45 PM

Ikkakus bankai has a limit too... it dosent just keep getting stronger without stop... it reaches its peak of its power when the dragon becomes red...

Ikkaku and renji are both failures in kidou, but comparatively, renji is more of a rational fighter as compared to ikkaku, who fights for the pleasure of fighting. This fighting style surely gives renji an advantage.

Kisuke Urahara

02-15-2007, 09:59 PM

Momentum

02-16-2007, 02:12 AM

I would also like to add that Renji's bankai currently has more attacks than Ikkaku's, he can swing it normally, it can break up if sliced and has baboon bone cannon for really long range attacks, it is very strong and hard to fight against, Byakuya raped him, but I am sure Ikkaku would not put up a better fight, Ichigo found it easier to defeat Ikkaku then he did to defeat Renji.

Why? Because Ikakku wasn't going all out on Ichigo.. ffs

I dont think just having Bankai makes Ikkaku strong enough to be a captain just yet, as Renji also has Bankai yet obviously isn't as strong as any of the current captains, also having more experience doesn't mean more strength, a point bleach constantly pushes as the series continues.

Then why did Renji ask him to become a Captain then?

Honjo

02-16-2007, 08:31 AM

yachiru_kid

02-16-2007, 09:22 AM

hey remember that ikkaku has bankai and has completely mastered it but he decided not to become a captain like yumichika. so i reckon ikkaku's better than renji even though i haven't seen his bankai yet but im still not sure i'm just guessing ok!^_^

yachiru_kid

02-16-2007, 09:24 AM

http://www.animewallpapers.com

Momentum

02-16-2007, 07:48 PM

I think Renji asked Ikkaku to become captain since he had achieved Bankai, it seems to me that Renji was simply mistaken in thinking that anyone with Bankai could be a captain, not to mention that this was before Renji had Bankai himself, it simply makes sense that given Renji's determined personality he has surpassed ikkaku, we can't really go on things like maybe Ikkaku was holding back since we dont really have any concrete proof, sure Ikkaku didn't use Bankai but it seems to me that he was using all his other ability's at the time at maximum effort,I also find it hard to believe Ikkaku would go easy on Ichigo considering his life was on the line, in the end, I think it comes down to the fact that despite Bankai, Ikkaku's combat ability is relatively low, we already know that without using his Bankai he lost against Ichigo when Ichigo was at about third or fourth seat level, and while Renji could probably last a fair length of time against most of the current captains, Ikkaku simply couldn't, I think a simple shunpo or senka attack would take Ikkaku down before he knew it.

Renji was asking Ikakku to become a Captain because of bankai?? Omg so has Renji then shouldn't he become one too?? Pfft... Ikakku taught Renji how to attain bankai therefore Ikakku has more experience than Renji...

Like already said... Ikkaku wasn't going all out on Ichigo.

Even Undying is saying Ikakku wasn't going all out on Ichigo...

I think a simple shunpo or senka attack would take Ikkaku down before he knew it.

Don't bother bringing in those techniques in...why? Because Renji doesn't know how to use senka or how to shunpo. ;p

Gecko4lif

02-21-2007, 08:43 PM

renji because of his bankai he would have a larger field of attack giving him the advantage he could attack ikkaku before he even got close... and yes ikkakus bankai could easily chop zabimaru into bits but reni can disconnect/reconnect zabimaru at will maing it impossible for ikkaku to win
yeah i think his range and mobility would defeat ikkau

Momentum

02-22-2007, 02:29 AM

yeah i think his range and mobility would defeat ikkau

Renji's range sucks all he does whip his zabimaru around making it easy to dodge. Mobility? Renji has hardly any sort of mobility... Did you see that fight when he was fighting Byakuya???? He hardly moved, all he did was just stand whip his thing around and no Renji doesn't shunpo which means hes got a disadvantage in mobility.

jonat3

02-22-2007, 03:11 AM

Shikai Renji is definately stronger than shikai Ikkaku. However, Ikkaku has way more experience with his bankai. So i'm not sure who would win.

Zorokai

02-23-2007, 01:52 PM

renji would win =] tho a good fight

Momentum

02-23-2007, 08:07 PM

renji would win =] tho a good fight

Uhh why does Renji win? FFS people stop posting one lined posts ;p

Shikai Renji is definately stronger than shikai Ikkaku. However, Ikkaku has way more experience with his bankai. So i'm not sure who would win.

Yes, Renji lacks control over his bankai. Ikakku uses flash step (look back at Ep. 51 if you don't believe me). Ikakku could POSSIBLY work out Renji's shikai that it can stretch out three times before returning to its normal state (he can use flash step to his advantage) etc etc... Good fight but Ikakku pretty much wins this... ;p

Gettles

02-24-2007, 04:34 AM

Yes, Renji lacks control over his bankai. Ikakku uses flash step (look back at Ep. 51 if you don't believe me). Ikakku could POSSIBLY work out Renji's shikai that it can stretch out three times before returning to its normal state (he can use flash step to his advantage) etc etc... Good fight but Ikakku pretty much wins this... ;p

What do you mean that Ikkaku could POSSIBLY figure out Zabimaru's attack pattern? Ikkaku is a more experienced fighter who TRAINED Renji. He probably knows all the holes in Renji's style better than anyone else. Really, it seems that Ikkaku has every advantage in this fight.

Momentum

02-24-2007, 08:53 AM

What do you mean that Ikkaku could POSSIBLY figure out Zabimaru's attack pattern? Ikkaku is a more experienced fighter who TRAINED Renji. He probably knows all the holes in Renji's style better than anyone else. Really, it seems that Ikkaku has every advantage in this fight.

Exactly thats what I'm trying to say... ;p Ikakku trained with Renji so he basically knows how he fights...

sham16

02-28-2007, 01:46 PM

Lol maybe you guys should not be putting all those in plain site I think you should use spoiler tags...

As for the fight... Ikkaku wins, why? wait for more episodes of bleach if you dont read manga...

captainmawaluigi

03-04-2007, 01:36 AM

How can this be a spoiler, when Ikkau has yet to use his bankai in the anime?

But yeah...this is a spoiler I guess

anyway, Renji loses for one reason...experience

The reason Renji lost vs his captain, is experience, he cant control his bankai that well yet, even with all them cool attacks.

And he is kinda weak with it, its either tired or not healed yet or this move will hurt it or whatever.

However, Ikkua says, he keep his shikai released so that it is always ready to fight and uses less energy to activate(kinda like Goku saying to Gohan..lets stay in SS mode or in chemistry for your activation energies, how SN2 reactions take a lot more energy because they are unstable)

Anyway, with that, I am sure that Ikkua will be able to crush some part of Renjis bankai, and one thing Renji was about, was close and far combat. However, with his bankai, he hasnt really shown any close combat attacks, which is what Ikkua is all about. So a slash or two there, and what will Renji do? He sure wont use Kidou

h0f5

03-04-2007, 01:35 PM

Im kinda amazed you guys can talk about how hitsugaya is slow and whatever, and renji is so damn fast because he got baboon bone cannon in the hits vs renji thread, but that point never got mentioned here. Dont see ikkaku's bankai being alot faster than hitsugaya, but whatever :)
Ikkaku might have some more experience? He dosent want to reveal his bankai to fight. in terms of fighting experience, he, who cannot use his bankai, has even less experience than renji who can use his bankai openly to practice.
If ikkaku trained with renji, ikkaku knows renji's moves. so does renji know ikkaku's moves. Geez.
As for everyone who said ikkaku didnt go full out on ichigo, wrong. Basically we are comparing ikkaku shikai and renji shikai. Obviously ikkaku not going into bankai has nothing to do with anything. In fact, because he had already attained bankai by then, his reiatsu, because he had attained bankai, was probably substantially stronger than renji who had not. Fact that Ichigo could defeat ikkaku with more ease than renji shows that renji is stronger by ikkaku by quite a bit.

Gettles

03-04-2007, 07:28 PM

[COLOR="#111"]
As for everyone who said ikkaku didnt go full out on ichigo, wrong. Basically we are comparing ikkaku shikai and renji shikai. Obviously ikkaku not going into bankai has nothing to do with anything. In fact, because he had already attained bankai by then, his reiatsu, because he had attained bankai, was probably substantially stronger than renji who had not. Fact that Ichigo could defeat ikkaku with more ease than renji shows that renji is stronger by ikkaku by quite a bit.

But even than, against Arrencars Ikkaku forced the one he was he was fighting to release before even going Shikai. Renji was in Bankai before the Arrencar he was fighting released.

Dashiva

03-04-2007, 10:25 PM

Right now I would bet on Ikkaku, cause he's more experienced.

But if we'll judge only bankai abilities, Zabimaru is FTW. It's sheer destructive power is close to that of Hoozukimaru, but it also can use kido-based attacks, has more range and isn't prone to Hoozukimaru's weapon destruction abilities due to it's ability to recombine.

h0f5

03-06-2007, 09:42 AM

But even than, against Arrencars Ikkaku forced the one he was he was fighting to release before even going Shikai. Renji was in Bankai before the Arrencar he was fighting released.

He didnt force him. Edorado said himself that he going into shikai was to teach ikkaku who loved fighting the fear of not being able to win nomatter how hard he tried, so that the next time he faced the arrancar, he would not have such a attitude.

But that battle is pretty hard to deduce, because renji himself had a 5 times limit. While renji said himself that he would have trouble fighting il forte without the limit, its not known how much trouble he would have against the arrancar.

VinScythe

03-07-2007, 04:36 AM

What I really want to know is if Zaraki can still beat them both.
Right Yumichika called Ikakku the second strongest man on the squad, but recalling from him he made himself out to be the strongest.. One can't really deter if he is reliable anymore, Renji might just still lose being new to the game and all, but outmatching that tremendous will of Ikakku it is quite a par for who has the greater attack power.

But then seeing Ikakku's "broken" performance in contrast to the cruel treatment Ichigo handed to Yami, the captain Zaraki ideal still rather stands.

Momentum

03-08-2007, 05:38 AM

Ikkaku might have some more experience? He dosent want to reveal his bankai to fight. in terms of fighting experience, he, who cannot use his bankai, has even less experience than renji who can use his bankai openly to practice.
If ikkaku trained with renji, ikkaku knows renji's moves. so does renji know ikkaku's moves. Geez.
As for everyone who said ikkaku didnt go full out on ichigo, wrong. Basically we are comparing ikkaku shikai and renji shikai. Obviously ikkaku not going into bankai has nothing to do with anything. In fact, because he had already attained bankai by then, his reiatsu, because he had attained bankai, was probably substantially stronger than renji who had not. Fact that Ichigo could defeat ikkaku with more ease than renji shows that renji is stronger by ikkaku by quite a bit.

Ikakku doesn't really want to reveal his bankai, why? Because he is fighting for the fun of it. And just because he lost to Ichigo doesn't really mean he'll lose to Renji ;p

Now I've read chapter 204-205 where Ikakku was fighting Edorado I didn't see very well him dodging Edorado's attacks but ever since I watched episode 118, Ikakku was moving beyond my belief which I think was very impressive. He even tricked Edorado by switching his blade and his sheath. I've never seen Renji move like that before and I don't think he can't even trick his opponents. I think Renji wouldn't even stand a chance against Edorado because his mobility sucks. Have you seen him? he hardly moves especially when hes in bankai.

Kay™

03-08-2007, 10:27 AM

nouscomd,please give your reason why you say renji will win and not to type short word like "renji will win,renji is no match with ikkaku and etc"
for me...yes renji got the upperhand since his bankai is long range but if ikkaku complete doin that move(forgot the name,he use it before when agaist the arrancar) and then...thats a different story...so personally i think ikkaku will win

Night Prowler

03-08-2007, 12:57 PM

He didnt force him. Edorado said himself that he going into shikai was to teach ikkaku who loved fighting the fear of not being able to win nomatter how hard he tried, so that the next time he faced the arrancar, he would not have such a attitude.
But that battle is pretty hard to deduce, because renji himself had a 5 times limit. While renji said himself that he would have trouble fighting il forte without the limit, its not known how much trouble he would have against the arrancar.

Would like to clear this up, an Arrancar only has ONE relise and thats on the same level as a Shinigami's Bankai, thats why Ikkaku's shikai didn't help against Edorado.

I'm still with Ikkaku on this and I think the next episode will clear all this up.

_mike_

03-08-2007, 01:04 PM

my moneys on ikkaku. ikkaku was a higher ranking officer in the 11th div than renji when he was there. and renji left the 11th for fuku taichou of the 6th div. even though renji is a VC and ikkaku a "3rd" seat, this does not mean that renji will win just coz of his title. ikkaku was higher ranking for a reason. strength and skill and reiatsu and ofcourse experience.

TousenKonameX

03-10-2007, 12:43 AM

Ikakku would defeat Renji by far. Bankai or shikai. Zabimaru just would not be able to handle the power of Ikakkus Bankai. Also Ikakku has more experiance and less fear and can control his recklessness.

Bankai_Kratos

03-10-2007, 12:52 AM

Unless you people know the scope of Ikkaku's Bankai then you shouldn't really judge.

Jay3205

03-10-2007, 04:08 AM

I'd bet Ikkaku would win. From the new episodes, he seems to be a better swordsman and also has an all power bankai.

I'm betting Ikkaku was first thought of just to be some lower shinigami that Ichigo would beat, yet be able to put up somewhat of a fight. Then, KT eventually decided to make him have a "secret bankai", which would account for Ichigo's easy win over Ikkaku despite Ikkaku's supposed power.

h0f5

03-10-2007, 09:33 AM

Would like to clear this up, an Arrancar only has ONE relise and thats on the same level as a Shinigami's Bankai, thats why Ikkaku's shikai didn't help against Edorado.

I'm still with Ikkaku on this and I think the next episode will clear all this up.

Well i thought the release was considered shikai, but whatever. Release and whatszup. Its not a spoiler anyway if you get what i mean.

Chiwofen

03-10-2007, 05:02 PM

Ikakku would win because he's had his Bankai for a lot longer than Renji. He has much more control over it. Also, the only reason he isn't a VC (or maybe even Captain) is because he refuses to be one.

But when it comes down to it, Renji has not had his bankai long enough to master it. Ikakku probably has.

Zorokai

03-16-2007, 02:30 PM

wow so many think ikakku =]
same here i think ikakku would win cos hes cool and doesnt give up so i think that ikakku would win cos hes cool tho it would be hard because renji's BAN-KAI is really powerful and has many skills while ikakku's BAN-KAI is purely strenght only so it would be hard but ikakku wins my vote by a bit =]

Yūki Miaka

03-20-2007, 08:31 PM

koolspot

03-20-2007, 08:36 PM

Now everyone is going to Ikkaku´s Side...

When i voted for Ikkaku he was losing in the poll...

I don´t like to say: ¨I Told you¨

Momentum

03-21-2007, 03:53 AM

Even though Ikkaku has had his bankai longer than Renji, we do not see untill just recently ( in the Anime at least... I do not read the manga so I do not know it appeared before now)... Renji's used his more than once and it has more than one attack method... so I think Renji would win...

The reason why we see Renji's bankai more was because we see him a lot more than Ikakku. Now for Renji's attack methods. Its like saying ninjas have a higher possibility of winning against samurais when samurais usually win. Just because Ikakku doesn't have a lot of attack methods doesn't mean he'll lose.

ikkaku's girl

03-21-2007, 06:28 AM

I swear, I didn't pick Ikkaku-sama because he's my favorite. Hard to believe? I don't care...

Depending on the circumstances, Ikkaku-sama could make easy work of Renji. Renji seems like he would get too emotional if the fight had something to do with someone he cared about *cough Rukia cough*. In anycase, I think emotionally, Ikkaku-sama will always have a leg up on Renji.

Physically, Renji would prob have the upper-hand in a battle. I mean, Renji is a Vice Captain, I think that deserves a lot of respect. He is also considerably larger than Ikkaku-sama.

Technique-wise, Ikkaku-sama would absolutely school Renji! Ikkaku-sama's relentless and powerful attacks would rip Renji to shreds! Zabimaru's powers definitely have weaknesses that Hoozukimaru could def take advantage of!

But, while we're talking about Ikkaku-sama, does anyone know when the anime will cover his past? I don't read the manga, so no spoilers please!

Momentum

03-21-2007, 07:41 AM

Physically, Renji would prob have the upper-hand in a battle. I mean, Renji is a Vice Captain, I think that deserves a lot of respect. He is also considerably larger than Ikkaku-sama.

It doesn't really matter whether you're a vice-captain or not. Talking about strength Ikakku stopped Edorad's arm with his back. Now if that was someone else they would've broken their back and be squashed. Ikakku was still standing on his two legs.

But, while we're talking about Ikkaku-sama, does anyone know when the anime will cover his past? I don't read the manga, so no spoilers please!

Should be in the next episode hopefully...

Yūki Miaka

03-21-2007, 02:02 PM

The reason why we see Renji's bankai more was because we see him a lot more than Ikakku. Now for Renji's attack methods. Its like saying ninjas have a higher possibility of winning against samurais when samurais usually win. Just because Ikakku doesn't have a lot of attack methods doesn't mean he'll lose.

Ok... I see what you mean....So ok it is possible for Ikkaku to win but I still stay to my original answer that Renji would win.

koolspot

03-21-2007, 08:23 PM

It's not anout have more attacks or not, Ikkaku proved that he is stronger than a lot of people, he was fighting for fun with Edorad, and now Edorado is a little scared and taking Ikkaku seriously...

Ikkaku is better than renji, he just hide his abbilities...

REnji is not weak, but even is a close match Ikkaku wins

koolspot

03-22-2007, 11:14 PM

The Episode 119 should kill this thread, Ikkaku WINS...
bye...

ikkaku's girl

03-26-2007, 11:40 PM

The Episode 119 should kill this thread, Ikkaku WINS...
bye...

lol! Nicely put!

Zanga

03-27-2007, 02:40 AM

LOL Ikakku would own Renji inside out. Probably would need his shikai against zabimaru since Zabimaru is more of a long range blade, cant see Renji fighting at the speed of Ikakku with that giant sword.

Anoir

03-27-2007, 06:10 AM

i would just like to point out before his transfer to Byakuya's squad rengi was like sith seat in eleventh division and yes i know he trained a lot more after he transferred.

But why I say Ikkaku would win is not a matter of bankai or even strength but of speed.

Ikakku from what i've seen is a lot faster then rengi and much more agile (flips and what not) also i've never even seen Rengi do Shunpo and I have seen Ikakku do it several times.

(yes i know just because I haven't seen him do it does not meean he can't but ll I've ever seen rengi do is stand and swing his sword)

Jay3205

03-27-2007, 07:40 PM

Ikkaku does seem alot more agile than Renji. Once Renji uses bankai, he barely seems to move at all. Ikkaku undoubtedly has the skill to get in close, so he would have an advantage.

ikkaku's girl

03-29-2007, 08:30 PM

Ikkaku does seem alot more agile than Renji. Once Renji uses bankai, he barely seems to move at all. Ikkaku undoubtedly has the skill to get in close, so he would have an advantage.

I agree, and you can't say Renji stands still because his bankai is large, because Ikkaku-sama's bankai is made up of three huge metal weapons. And even with those blades, he is able to move at lighting speed. Renji would def. get his ass handed to him on a platter.

Hollow_Man_ct

04-04-2007, 08:33 AM

Ikkaku would win if they are on their normal forms.

Renji would win if they are on shikai forms.

Bankai for both, hmmm... I say Ikkaku, but barely.

Momentum

04-05-2007, 10:26 AM

Ikkaku would win if they are on their normal forms.

Renji would win if they are on shikai forms.

Bankai for both, hmmm... I say Ikkaku, but barely.

Even in shikai form Ikkaku could possibly win. I mean Ikkaku trained Renji so basically he knows Renji's attack patterns, how many times can Zabimaru can stretch out etc... but hell since Ikkaku trained Renji he possibly knows more.

Hollow_Man_ct

04-05-2007, 01:27 PM

In this post I used Ichigo as a stepping stone, Since Ichigo beat Ikkaku depending on sword combat alone he then beat Renji but in the fight with renji he couldn't beat him in swordsmanship so he had to use Getsuga Tenshou which proved that the fight was tougher for Ichigo than the one with Ikkaku.

Ichigo>>Renji>Ikkaku but in shikai form.

Jay3205

04-05-2007, 09:05 PM

At the time, Ikkaku was apparently holding back quite a bit when he fought Ichigo. There would be no reason why Ikkaku would be defeated so easily by shikai Ichigo but be able to keep up with an arrancar unless he was holding back. Probably a retcon of sorts. Also, Renji mostly beat Ichigo due to having higher strength for most of the fight and using his zanpakutou ability instead of swordsmanship.

Hollow_Man_ct

04-06-2007, 07:01 AM

^^ Negative, Ikkaku didn't hold up the arrancar on shikai, in fact once he pulled out his shikai he immediately was smashed to the floor and had to use bankai when he saw there was no use, also, the sole reason he used shikai at that time was to increase his reiatsu a bit so that he can deflect a bit of edorado's attack.

Ikkaku was FORCIBLY held back when he fighting Ichigo because if he used bankai or such his secret would have been blown out.

Ichigo's final blow to ikkaku was part zanpaktou, part reiatsu and part swordsmanship but in ratios 1:1:2. why? he hit the mid section of the middle part of houzikimaru which has the highest possibility to be broken there so he took that chance and cut ikkaku.

XenoCyde

04-06-2007, 08:19 AM

I would probably put all my money on renji, well he's really strong if he can strengthen his skills either way i still think renji will win.

Jay3205

04-06-2007, 05:32 PM

^^ Ikkaku was smashed after the arrancar released. Until then, he could hold up quite well with the unreleased arrancar using only his unreleased zanpakutou. If base Ikkaku could keep up with an arrancar, there should be no reason he'd lose to Ichigo unless he held back a large amount of power and wasn't fighting all out.

Hollow_Man_ct

04-06-2007, 06:35 PM

Ikkaku held up well??? he was punched silly, twice almost dying and then he used shikai to raise his reiatsy to be able to live, he didn't even stand straight once the arrancar released.

he did NOT hold back against ichigo with anything but bankai, the reason houzokimaru was pierced through was the shape of the weapon, good swordmanship from Ichigo's side and his elevated reiatsu at the moment of slicing. face it Shikai Ichigo>>Shikai Renji>Full-Shikai Ikkaku.

Ichi-Zoro 3

04-06-2007, 07:05 PM

Ikkaku has more advantage because he can completely and easily manipulate his bankai while renji doesn't have much ability to be agile and control his bankai

XenoCyde

04-06-2007, 07:07 PM

well there is difference in time... Ikkaku, learned bankai first before renji...

Momentum

04-07-2007, 01:56 AM

No way... shikai Ikkaku can beat shikai Renji... It'll be so easy for Ikkaku to dodge Renji's while hes flailing his Zabimaru around seeing Ikkaku has more agility and is more agile. He can therefore rush towards Renji. Renji doesn't shunpo so his mobility sucks once again. So what does he do when in shikai form? Not much really... Sure he can jump and stretch his Zabimaru out... but that doesn't really do anything against Ikkaku. He can also use his tri-fold staff to simply defend himself when Renji tries to attack him but what can Renji do to defend himself while his Zabimaru is stretched out and Ikkaku is really close to him like one meter away? Again nothing. Dodging wouldn't also help like what he did when he was fighting Ichigo...

Hollow_Man_ct

04-07-2007, 07:20 AM

Momentum

04-07-2007, 12:53 PM

^^ RENJI CAN SHUNPO! why do most people have the impression that the only true "shunpoers" are captains, yourichi and Ichigo?? did you not see the anime at all? Renji short-shunpo-ing across fields next to Ichigo? damn, to avoid a long discussion like the one with Zaraki and gin, take my word, Renji can shunpo.

No he can't... Ok then give me solid proof because what you just said before isn't that convincing. If you say he can shunpo why didn't he use shunpo against Byakuya, Ichigo etc...? Oh but he'll choose to use shunpo AGAINST Ikkaku? No.

also, renji uses kidou (not that good but still, near Rukia's level after becoming a VC while Ikkaku has NILL kidou abilities, see Ikkaku's chat with Iba while they were drinking) which is an advantage, currently I believe that if Renji wanted, he would show the same amount of agility with shikai as anyone else.

Yeah uses kidou but he never uses it BECAUSE he officially sucks at it and he knows it and also it doesn't matter if Ikkaku can use kidou. So for the sake of this thread ignore the usage of kidou unless a new manga chapter shows us Renji using some kidou techniques...

currently I believe that if Renji wanted, he would show the same amount of agility with shikai as anyone else.

Ok he wants to but he can't. Why? If he could, he'll have a MASSIVE advantage during battles and he'll use it ANYTIME. It definitely does give you an advantage in battles after all.

also, Renji learned his lesson when he was fighting Ichigo, his max combo flaw should be fixed seeing how close Ichigo's swing was at that time, again kidou comes in handy here.

Forgive me if I don't understand this but his attack lag will always stay with him and oh kidou is once again useless.

Renji wins in Shikai, loses in unreleased, and a evenly fought match with bankai but loses at the end.

No disagree with you there... Ikkaku might win in shikai. And as for bankai, since its so destructive theres a possibility that it can crush Zabimaru into bits and pieces, impossible for Renji to reattach it.

T_Ichigo

04-11-2007, 10:21 PM

Jay3205

04-11-2007, 11:39 PM

Erhm, no Renji can't shhuynpo, or at least he hasn't showed it in the anime. I would guess that Ikkaku would be the winner since he has more battle experience, and his battle techniques are of high level. Ikkaku knew how to fight for real when Renji still was a n00b, that says alot as long as Ikkaku hasn't advanced himself since then, of course.If you go by the anime, Renji can shunpo (while moving his entire bankai during the shunpo). Still, I would go with Ikkaku being a better swordsman. He doesn't have any special ability with his shikai or bankai, so the only way for him to hope of defeating an opponent is to have excellent sword skills.

T_Ichigo

04-11-2007, 11:48 PM

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm could you please exemplify ? maybe I've missed it .. somehow ..

Jay3205

04-12-2007, 05:02 AM

^^It was in one of the latest episodes, where Ururu comes to help him. The arrancar is distracted by Ururu (or a mod soul, I don't remember), and Renji uses shunpo to go between the arrancar and Ururu/mod soul. It's quite surprising, since he moves his entire bankai during the shunpo.

Momentum

04-12-2007, 05:46 AM

Well ok after watching episode 120 I now believe Renji can shunpo but heres another question... Does he use it frequently? Thats my first time seeing him do that too...

Jay3205

04-12-2007, 05:55 AM

He doesn't use it frequently, but he really doesn't need to. His bankai is more for attacking opponents who are far away, so he wouldn't need to shunpo to get close to them. It's a better idea to let the bankai do all the moving while he stays far away.

Momentum

04-12-2007, 06:36 AM

^^ Yup and knowing Ikkaku he'll try and get close to Renji as quick as possible so his bankai won't be very effective.

Grimjaw_Bankai

04-13-2007, 06:58 PM

Ikkaku all the way he will own that red-haired-overly-tattooed-vice-captain soooo yeahhh

Chi

05-29-2008, 06:57 AM

Now this is an interesting fight, Ikakku trained Renji but only to a point. Both have high rankings, both aren't proficient Kidoh users. It's apparent that Renji isn't the same as he was when they trained so they're a little different. Lets do this.

Llamaking

05-29-2008, 08:13 AM

I think that Ikakku would win this fight.

He's much quicker than Renji, and I feel that he'd be able to move around Renji's moves and his Bankai much easier than Renji would be able to dodge Ikakku's moves.

If Renji is able to land a hit, then I can see the battle more toward his favor - but I don't see Renji being able to land a hit on Ikakku.

sacrifice4

05-29-2008, 02:33 PM

Madarame Ikkaku would beat the shit out of Abarai Renji. Ikkaku has Bankai for a longer time, and is more experienced with it, whereas Renji is far from mastering his.

newbsrule

05-29-2008, 10:39 PM

i believ it would be a draw because as u say they both cant do kidoh very well and they r both tough fighters who dont giveup when injured

KholdStare

05-30-2008, 12:41 AM

Ikkaku definitely has this one. He has had bankai for a much longer time and he probably could have been promoted to Captain if he had shown that he actually has a bankai.

Renji realizes that he has NOT yet surpassed Byakuya but he asks Ikkaku to become a captain so he probably does believe that Ikkaku is Captain level.

Momentum

05-30-2008, 02:30 AM

Old debate.

Link: Renji vs. Ikakku (http://forums.bleachportal.net/showthread.php?t=28019&highlight=ikkaku+vs.+renji)

Anyway, none of them are good with kidou and 11th's specialty is combat hence Ikakku will have the upper hand. Not to mention that Ikakku was the one who taught Renji how to attain bankai also meaning that he has way more experience. Also judging from the manga and in my opinion, Ikakku can take more beating than Renji.

Chi

05-30-2008, 02:49 AM

I dunno, I think Renji has had tougher opponents the Ikakku... 8th espada while Ikakku went against the 15th. Renji had Ichigo and Byakuya while Ikakku had just Ichigo... before renji did. So its really not that easy... and like Urahara said, the only person who can teach you how to attain bankai is your Zanpakuto no one else.

edit: Hey Kholdstare, sorry about starting a thread when one already existed, any chance you could merge em?

Momentum

05-30-2008, 03:16 AM

I dunno, I think Renji has had tougher opponents the Ikakku... 8th espada while Ikakku went against the 15th.

Renji (along with Ishida) still had a hard time fighting Szayel. Mayuri just had to jump in and finish the fight.

Renji had Ichigo and Byakuya while Ikakku had just Ichigo... before renji did.

Renji lost to Ichigo who didn't even have a proper zanpakuto (Byakuya jumped in and owned Ichigo.) Ikakku lost to Ichigo because of plotkai.

and like Urahara said, the only person who can teach you how to attain bankai is your Zanpakuto no one else.

Ahh, Urahara also provided a way how to learn bankai faster. Ichigo...? So... isn't that "teaching" as well? :rolleyes

Renji loses this.

Chi

05-30-2008, 03:20 AM

Momentum

05-30-2008, 03:28 AM

true, but renji wasn't Urahara's student... I also think that Ikakku underestimated Ichigo and let to his defeat. I think its a draw

Ichigo was not trained by Urahara until Byakuya owned him.

I also think that Ikakku underestimated Ichigo and let to his defeat.

That is very naive. It is evident that Ikakku was going easy on Ichigo otherwise he could of went all out and used bankai. He let Ichigo won so Kenpachi would fight him later hence plotkai.

The rebellious Renji was moved to the 11th Division and eventually rose to the 6th seat. During his time in the 11th Division, he befriended Ikkaku Madarame, who taught Renji how to fight. It was also shown that Renji was aware that Ikkaku had a bankai, but refused to use it to train Renji.

KholdStare

05-30-2008, 07:28 AM

true, but renji wasn't Urahara's student... I also think that Ikakku underestimated Ichigo and let to his defeat. Plus in SS renji gave Ichigo a greater beating then Ikakku gave Ichigo, I think its a draw

Hmm, I don't think Ikkaku underestimated Ichigo. He asked him who his teacher was and Ichigo told him it was Urahara. Then Ikkaku said it would be an insult to hold back so he won't.

I merged the threads but I was not able to keep the poll for your thread and the poll of the old thread is shown instead. Sorry.

ninjabot

05-31-2008, 07:45 AM

I'm actually going with Renji on this one. Experience is good in a fight, but versatility is better. Renji has the distance advantage aswell as the ability to split his bankai into peices and reform it at will. Zabimaru's shikai form can be split into seperate blades aswell, but can be controlled via Renji's mind almost like SKY (Higa Zekkou). If he could do that with his bankai, he could keep Ikakku confused with a hail of large projectiles before rushing in for a close range attack with shunpo.

There's also that "baboon bone cannon" attack he has (the big energy blast he used to kill Ille Forte). Ikkaku's bankai seems brittle aswell, seeing as though it focuses on offensive power alone. It can't endure too many head-on collisions with Zabimaru before pulling off that super-attack. The question is whether Renji can avoid it when it comes.

Chi

05-31-2008, 09:22 AM

Well that's the thing, I think Ikakku might be able to slice through Renji's bankai baboon bone pieces. But for how long can he do it with the brittleness of his weapon and Renji ability to avoid a direct hit should Ikakku get close cause lets face it, he's defense in bankai is totally reliant on keeping his opponent at bay and not letting them get close.

Zanga

05-31-2008, 05:47 PM

You can't slice Renji's bankai so to say nor can you smash it. Renji showed us that raising his spirit power can repair his pieces. And we also know that Renji can seperate his pieces at will.

And I'm pretty damn sure it's easier to avoid those giant blades from hitting your bankai then it is the avoid 1000 half-invisible Senbonzakura blades. Both have shunpo and can do it with their bankai, and there's no way anyoen can prove who is faster than the other.

So Renji has range, ability to easily avoid his attack, and has enough power to break down massive 100 ft tall pillars, which should translate to Ikkaku's bankai breaking sooner or later, and he also has a ranged attack and mostly can do Higa Zekkou in bankai form.

Renji's got this.

Momentum

06-01-2008, 12:27 AM

There's also that "baboon bone cannon" attack he has (the big energy blast he used to kill Ille Forte).

The technique is slow to activate.

You can't slice Renji's bankai so to say nor can you smash it. Renji showed us that raising his spirit power can repair his pieces. And we also know that Renji can seperate his pieces at will.

Ikkaku's bankai is shear power. He'll have no problems crushing Renji's bankai into small pieces.

And I'm pretty damn sure it's easier to avoid those giant blades from hitting your bankai then it is the avoid 1000 half-invisible Senbonzakura blades. Both have shunpo and can do it with their bankai, and there's no way anyoen can prove who is faster than the other.

Same goes Ikkaku, he'll have no problems dodging Renji's bankai because its that slow. Ikkaku will sure aim for Renji instead of his bankai.

So Renji has range, ability to easily avoid his attack, and has enough power to break down massive 100 ft tall pillars, which should translate to Ikkaku's bankai breaking sooner or later, and he also has a ranged attack and mostly can do Higa Zekkou in bankai form.

What can a long range fighter do against a short range fighter? Again, Ikkaku has more experience in terms of fighting so he should have no problems dodging Renji's bankai.
Of course, when Ikkaku's bankai comes in contact, it becomes more powerful or when Ikkaku gets harmed. In translation, the bankai becomes more powerful as the fight drags on. I'm sure Renji will be down on the ground by the time it reaches the full limit. Ikkaku won't be needing to power it up himself because its already that powerful.

Zanga

06-01-2008, 12:54 AM

The technique is slow to activate.

Didn't seem like it's slow, Renji screams the attack name and the next page you see a 2 page spread of him dying.

Ikkaku's bankai is shear power. He'll have no problems crushing Renji's bankai into small pieces.

Show me a scan where Renji's bankai has been smashed and is unable to put them back together. If it's smashed or crushed, rearrange itself back into place, said by Renji himeslf in his fight against Byakuya. You have to completly dissapate the piece to fully get red of it.

Same goes Ikkaku, he'll have no problems dodging Renji's bankai because its that slow. Ikkaku will sure aim for Renji instead of his bankai.

Show me a scan of its slowness. It's pretty damn fast imo since Byakuya was running away from it, and eventually caught him in mid-air btw.

What can a long range fighter do against a short range fighter? Again, Ikkaku has more experience in terms of fighting so he should have no problems dodging Renji's bankai.
Of course, when Ikkaku's bankai comes in contact, it becomes more powerful or when Ikkaku gets harmed. In translation, the bankai becomes more powerful as the fight drags on. I'm sure Renji will be down on the ground by the time it reaches the full limit. Ikkaku won't be needing to power it up himself because its already that powerful.

As the battle prolongs, his bankai will being to shatter, and unlike Renji, he can't instantly fix his bankai. And I don't understand why you 'assume' Ikkaku can go straight for Renji. Renji is not slow, and Ikkaku hasn't shown us he's really fast.

And even though Renji may have learned from Ikkaku, Renji has trained every single day to get stronger, while Ikkaku mentions in his fight with Ichigo it's been a long time since he's fought, so though it may not close the gap in their fighting abilities, it certainly proves the gap isn't as large as you think it is.

SenpaiRetsu

06-01-2008, 10:02 AM

I voted for Renji, his bankai is much better, it's extremely hard to damage and it has long and short range capabilities. if he wraps it around him it's a shield. he can fight very long range and it has a powerful projectile. in the battle of bankai's this is no contest.

Yumi-chan

06-01-2008, 10:30 AM

i think ikkaku would win ..because...i'm a ikkaku fangirl..hehe xDD
his bankai is kicking asses and he's way more passionate when fighting xD

Momentum

06-01-2008, 11:11 AM

Didn't seem like it's slow, Renji screams the attack name and the next page you see a 2 page spread of him dying.

Actually, it is THAT slow. His bankai has to stretch out before it even fires.

Show me a scan where Renji's bankai has been smashed and is unable to put them back together. If it's smashed or crushed, rearrange itself back into place, said by Renji himeslf in his fight against Byakuya. You have to completly dissapate the piece to fully get red of it.

No scan, but its not impossible especially with Ikkaku's bankai.

Show me a scan of its slowness. It's pretty damn fast imo since Byakuya was running away from it, and eventually caught him in mid-air btw.

I'll take back what I said. Though its not that slow, he still doesn't have that much experience to use it properly.

As the battle prolongs, his bankai will being to shatter, and unlike Renji, he can't instantly fix his bankai. And I don't understand why you 'assume' Ikkaku can go straight for Renji. Renji is not slow, and Ikkaku hasn't shown us he's really fast.

I've never seen Renji shunpo that many times though I don't know if can. If he does know how to, then he would of won most of his fights easily. He should of defeated a numero in a short amount of time. I also think that its impossible for Renji to shunpo while in bankai because of the size. More weight means less speed. Renji barely moves when hes in bankai.

And even though Renji may have learned from Ikkaku, Renji has trained every single day to get stronger, while Ikkaku mentions in his fight with Ichigo it's been a long time since he's fought, so though it may not close the gap in their fighting abilities, it certainly proves the gap isn't as large as you think it is.

I don't see why Renji still asked Ikkaku to be a captain then. If he was more powerful than Ikkaku then he should of been a captain instead.

I voted for Renji, his bankai is much better, it's extremely hard to damage and it has long and short range capabilities. if he wraps it around him it's a shield. he can fight very long range and it has a powerful projectile. in the battle of bankai's this is no contest.

Well if it Renji's bankai curled around him then that would leave him immobile. That would make it much easier for Ikkaku to land a hit with a high chance of ending the fight.

SenpaiRetsu

06-01-2008, 01:27 PM

Actually, it is THAT slow. His bankai has to stretch out before it even fires.

No scan, but its not impossible especially with Ikkaku's bankai.

I'll take back what I said. Though its not that slow, he still doesn't have that much experience to use it properly.

I've never seen Renji shunpo that many times though I don't know if can. If he does know how to, then he would of won most of his fights easily. He should of defeated a numero in a short amount of time. I also think that its impossible for Renji to shunpo while in bankai because of the size. More weight means less speed. Renji barely moves when hes in bankai.

I don't see why Renji still asked Ikkaku to be a captain then. If he was more powerful than Ikkaku then he should of been a captain instead.

Well if it Renji's bankai curled around him then that would leave him immobile. That would make it much easier for Ikkaku to land a hit with a high chance of ending the fight.

good point, however renji isn't very big. so he could cover himself and still attack and have room to spare. he doesn't need range in this fight so much because ikkaku is goin to get in close to do damage.

Another major thing i'm not sure about is whether renji swings his bankai or not. does he control it with his mind and doesn't need to even swing it or does he have to pull it back? if he doesn't have to swing it then it's a huge advantage, but if he has to swing everytime, the gap of recoil and swing is such a huge amount of time it'd be over. lets face it if ikkaku's bankai hits anyones body directly even once, they're dead. unless u have steal skin of course :0

Also who says zabimura needs to be extended to shoot the cannon?

FullMetal Rebel

06-01-2008, 02:09 PM

Ikkau takes this

Ikkau has more experience in combat, more firepower, more speed, and his range is decent enough to hack away Zabimaru's weak bonds in Bankai. Ikkau has him in close combat no questions asked. Renji has the advantage at a far range, but Ikkau can easily close the gap. Plus Renji's bankai is immature and hard to control.(Near useless also)

xiphosforr

06-01-2008, 02:26 PM

i reckon ikkaku would win just cuz i think he's the better fighter, he also enjoys it more

Zanga

06-01-2008, 06:13 PM

Well ok after watching episode 120 I now believe Renji can shunpo but heres another question... Does he use it frequently? Thats my first time seeing him do that too...

Well it looks like there was a time where you accepted he could shunpo.

This post was the first one on the last page.

Actually, it is THAT slow. His bankai has to stretch out before it even fires.

Well it was only shown in the anime, but if you're going to say that, I can say a Cero's slow then, since it has to charge up, just as Zabimaru has to stretch out.

I don't see why Renji still asked Ikkaku to be a captain then. If he was more powerful than Ikkaku then he should of been a captain instead.

It's natural for the student to think highly of their teacher. It's just like how Gohan surpassed Goku without knowing it. He assumed Goku was holding back in his fight against Cell because he was comparing Goku's power to his own, it's all the same.

Well if it Renji's bankai curled around him then that would leave him immobile. That would make it much easier for Ikkaku to land a hit with a high chance of ending the fight.

Like SenpaiRetsu had stated, it was only take one line of many to cover Renji.

Momentum

06-03-2008, 10:22 AM

good point, however renji isn't very big. so he could cover himself and still attack and have room to spare. he doesn't need range in this fight so much because ikkaku is goin to get in close to do damage.

Yet his bankai is still big. His bankai speed and reaction time is slow. Ikkaku specializes in close combat while Renji long range hence Renji will suck in long range. Also watch episode 120 or 121 when Ilfort and Renji were fighting. Notice how close Ilfort was breaking through Renji's bankai. With Ikkaku's amount of power within the bankai, he can also perform the same feat. Imagine when his bankai reaches the full limit.

Another major thing i'm not sure about is whether renji swings his bankai or not. does he control it with his mind and doesn't need to even swing it or does he have to pull it back? if he doesn't have to swing it then it's a huge advantage, but if he has to swing everytime, the gap of recoil and swing is such a huge amount of time it'd be over. lets face it if ikkaku's bankai hits anyones body directly even once, they're dead. unless u have steal skin of course

Watch any of the fights with Renji involved, he always swings whenever needed. Whats the point of having a sword hilt then? Again, the bankai speed and reaction time is slow because the head always goes first.

Also who says zabimura needs to be extended to shoot the cannon?

Watch episode 120 or 121 for your own benefit.

Bankai Special Ability: Zabimaru also gains a special technique known as Baboon Bone Cannon (hikōtsu taihō) after Renji becomes more adept with using his bankai. The technique fires a dense blast of spiritual energy from Zabimaru's mouth. Unfortunately, the technique costs a substantial amount of energy from Renji which usually causes an aftermath that breaks the segments out of formation.

Source: http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Renji_Abarai

Well it looks like there was a time where you accepted he could shunpo.

I can't deny that though I still don't see him use it that often which is making me think otherwise.

Well it was only shown in the anime, but if you're going to say that, I can say a Cero's slow then, since it has to charge up, just as Zabimaru has to stretch out.

You can't compare a sword technique with a hollow ability.

It's natural for the student to think highly of their teacher. It's just like how Gohan surpassed Goku without knowing it. He assumed Goku was holding back in his fight against Cell because he was comparing Goku's power to his own, it's all the same.

I wasn't a fan of DBZ hence I didn't actually care what was going on. You are using DBZ as an example after all which makes me not to believe that statement.

Remember, Renji still needs experience to get the most out of his bankai.

Undying

06-03-2008, 10:42 AM

Hmm. Il Forta nearly broke Renji's bankai when he was at 1/5 of his potential, so that's not a valid comparison to Ikkaku, who was going on 100% from the start and still almost got killed by an Arrancar most likely not much more powerful or even weaker than Il Forte.

Ikkaku at maximum power was cutting Edorad, but his bankai was breaking - Renji at maximum made toast out of Il Forte in three strikes.

As far as Zabimaru needing to be anything in order to fire Baboon Bone Cannon - maybe it needs to stretch, maybe not, but it's too fast for Ikkaku, who doesn't have a very impressive speed, seeing as he only specializes in close combat.

Greater speed, greater versatility, ability to attack and defend simultaneously, ranged attack, and his bankai doesn't break apart because he attacks something.

Renji wins, easily.

Zanga

06-03-2008, 07:12 PM

I wasn't a fan of DBZ hence I didn't actually care what was going on. You are using DBZ as an example after all which makes me not to believe that statement.

Huh just because it's DBZ that means it's not valid? The scenario's the freakin' same, where's your logic coming from.

And about the Zabimaru's technique, you still can't prove whether the Bone cannon is a slow technique. The anime made it looks slow, while the cannon manga made it seem like Illforte died in a few seconds

I can't deny that though I still don't see him use it that often which is making me think otherwise.

Doesn't change the fact that he has it. His only other real battle with his bankai was against Byakuya, and in that fight he didn't use shunpo because he didn't need it as Byakuya was on the run through most of the battle.

Lightey Natsume

06-03-2008, 10:49 PM

I think renjii wins.I think this mostly becuase renjii has more experiance with his bankai then ikkaku does although ikkaku is strong i beleve renjii shows more power overall than ikkaku.

Undying

06-03-2008, 10:57 PM

Technically, Ikkaku has more experience since he had bankai for longer than Renji. Although, since he most likely doesn't use it often, he may not be very skilled, it's a bit far-fatched to assume he didn't train with it.

Aside from that you're right, Renji shows a far more impressive amount of stuff he can do with his bankai.

SoiaXShinji

06-04-2008, 12:12 AM

i would have to say renji would win but thats just my honest opinion
i would like to understand how ikkaku would win with renji...really

Momentum

06-04-2008, 04:20 AM

Geez Undying, you just had to come back. Welcome back by the way...

Now as for the fight, I say Ikkaku. Ikkaku's bankai makes him just stronger (the effect is just amplify his direct power, without anything else), so he should be able to break through Renji's bankai and reach him. Since Renji's weapon will take some time to reform, Ikkaku's bankai, which has the advantage of being multiple weapons, will hit Abarai, and probably kill him.
LOL Ikakku would own Renji inside out. Probably would need his shikai against zabimaru since Zabimaru is more of a long range blade, cant see Renji fighting at the speed of Ikakku with that giant sword.

Change of heart?

And about the Zabimaru's technique, you still can't prove whether the Bone cannon is a slow technique. The anime made it looks slow, while the cannon manga made it seem like Illforte died in a few seconds

Of course the manga will make it look fast. Now its hard to say whether its slow or fast.

Doesn't change the fact that he has it. His only other real battle with his bankai was against Byakuya, and in that fight he didn't use shunpo because he didn't need it as Byakuya was on the run through most of the battle.

Shunpo would help him... greatly.

Meh, whatever. Its easy to say "Renji PWNZORZ!1!!" because he has more spotlight than Ikkaku.

Undying

06-04-2008, 05:47 AM

Geez Undying, you just had to come back. Welcome back by the way...
Someone had to kick ass...

Change of heart?
And... your point being? I reread the related material, I reviewed my conclusions, and I changed my opinion. It's a very simple thing.

Of course the manga will make it look fast. Now its hard to say whether its slow or fast.
I know Zanga will have something to say of his own, but I need to point out that when characters cannot react to an attack it is usually because it's too fast for them to react to it. For example; Il Forte couldn't react to Renji's attacks because they were too fast. When he started to manage to react, he still was too slow and couldn't dodge the attacks.

Shunpo would help him... greatly.
Renji is faster than Ikkaku anyway.

Meh, whatever. Its easy to say "Renji PWNZORZ!1!!" because he has more spotlight than Ikkaku.
:hmm: I didn't realize that having more spotlight is relevant to winning. Greater speed, a better bankai and the advantage of having multiple offense capabilities do.

Zanga

06-04-2008, 06:47 PM

Change of heart?

That was before I started reading the manga.

Of course the manga will make it look fast. Now its hard to say whether its slow or fast.

Manga = Cannon? If the manga makes it look fast, doesn't that mean it really is fast?.. Unless Kubo draws Zabimaru stretching out to fire his Bone cannon himself, I'm going to assume that it can just simply fire it with no stretching in any shape or form. The anime adds alot of unnecessary content which basically messes debates up.

Gingermadman

06-05-2008, 12:04 AM

Renji said he couldn't defeat that Arrancar if he started the battle at full strength.

Ikkaku had a blast while fighting his arrancar and was able to hold his own with a shikai for most of the time, destroying the arrancar as soon as he hit bankai.

Not totally conclusive but seems pretty obvious if you take in the factor of how long Ikkaku has been training with bankai compared to Renji and the fact he is so much more experienced.

Baldy takes it in my opinion.

Zanga

06-05-2008, 12:45 AM

Renji said he couldn't defeat that Arrancar if he started the battle at full strength.

Ikkaku had a blast while fighting his arrancar and was able to hold his own with a shikai for most of the time, destroying the arrancar as soon as he hit bankai.

Guess you need glasses, since the second Ikkaku brought shikai out, it was smashed to bits.

And whether 'having a blast' or not, it doesn't really prove anything, except the fact that you love to fight. Zaraki was 'having a blast' with Ichigo, but when you look at it, there's was a giant gash in his chest, nose was nearly cut off, lost a shit load of blood and his blade broke. Ikkaku was haivng a blast because his opponent wouldn't die to his simple attacks and managed to get in a lucky blow.

And Ikkaku didn't destroy him when he brought his bankai out. Last time I checked at the end of the battle, Ikkaku's bankai was destroyed to bits. He only got in some cuts because the nature of his bankai was a mystery to him, which is the massive increase in destructive power. Then Elorado matched Ryuumon Houzoukimaru's final attack in its most powerful state.

And bout the Renji part, despite him saying that, I think it's clear he would've won if they had started without the limit. Renji, though took wounds was able to block a released Illforte's attack(shown when he charged after Uryuu), shunpo'n himself and his entire bankai to block the attack. I'm pretty sure a Renji that is 5 time more powerful(meaning 5 times more reaitsu = 5 times stronger bankai) should be able to beat Ifforte.

Gingermadman

06-05-2008, 08:18 PM

My bad, he didn't even need shikai to fight an un-released arrancar.
Renji said he wouldn't beat him if he started at full power is enough said considering he said it himself , he wouldn't say that if it wasn't true. The only reason he won is that a sharp increase unsettled ill forte and he was able to find an opening, if he was fighting at full power he may never have found that opening.

Ikkaku could of instantly went bankai like renji/toushiro did and won extremly easily , Ikkaku's full power is well above Renji's full power , Don't see how Renji could win. Also considering just how much damage Ikkaku can deal with is insane , he took so many straight hits and he was still able to stand and pull out his bankai and win. I don't think Renji could of won against Edorad.

might want to cut down on the attitude too , "you might wana get some glasses" , pathetic.

Undying

06-06-2008, 12:05 AM

My bad, he didn't even need shikai to fight an un-released arrancar.
Ikkaku was being tossed around by an unreleased Arrancar - he lost teeth, got smashed through at least one wall, and was bleeding quite a bit. Ikkaku needed bankai just to have the chance to survive the fight.
Renji said he wouldn't beat him if he started at full power is enough said considering he said it himself , he wouldn't say that if it wasn't true. The only reason he won is that a sharp increase unsettled ill forte and he was able to find an opening, if he was fighting at full power he may never have found that opening.
You partially contradicted yourself, but more importantly, Renji said that had he gone full power from the start, the fight would have been a gamble. He did not know whether he would survive it or not.

Ikkaku said the exact same thing at the end of his fight; he said that he was lucky to be alive, and his condition shows he escaped death by a hair's breadth.

To simplify, Ikkaku and Renji are very close in stamina, combat ability, and power. The only differences are that Ikkaku takes his time to enjoy a fight (he did not release even shikai despite being tossed around by an unreleased Edorad, who wasn't even using his sword until right before releasing), and their abilities. Ikkaku's bankai us short-range and focused on power only, Renji's is more versatile, faster, and has multiple abilities, which gives Renji the edge.

Ikkaku could of instantly went bankai like renji/toushiro did and won extremly easily , Ikkaku's full power is well above Renji's full power , Don't see how Renji could win.
All speculation. If Renji was at 100% from the start and went bankai, his fight, just like Ikkaku's, would have been a gamble. He may have won and may not - which is exactly what happened with Ikkaku.
Also considering just how much damage Ikkaku can deal with is insane , he took so many straight hits and he was still able to stand and pull out his bankai and win. I don't think Renji could of won against Edorad.
Ikkaku and Renji can deal with similar amounts of damage - in fact, Renji can deal with more, seeing as his opponent cut him rather than smash. Also, he was able to fight rather well after being stabbed through the stomach, which should have immobilized him or hampered his movement.

Ikkaku absorbed most of the attacks with his shoulders and weapon, excluding two hits when Edorado just released and the final attack, which he survived by luck.
might want to cut down on the attitude too , "you might wana get some glasses" , pathetic.
If you're going to complain about attitude, might as well quote exactly what Zanga said - and he said "guess you need glasses". Which by the way isn't really attitude. Now, if he started mentioning your nerve endings... :winking56

Zanga

06-06-2008, 01:47 AM

might want to cut down on the attitude too , "you might wana get some glasses" , pathetic

Well I'm sorry you took it that way..which is what I would've said had you not tried acting like you're high and mighty.

So I'm not sorry ;)

Renji said he wouldn't beat him if he started at full power is enough said considering he said it himself , he wouldn't say that if it wasn't true. The only reason he won is that a sharp increase unsettled ill forte and he was able to find an opening, if he was fighting at full power he may never have found that opening.

Isn't the only reason Ikkaku got those bankai hits on Edorad because of his giant increase in power that no one could've possibly expected? It went down like this.

Ikkaku cuts Edorad's hand. Edroad is shocked.

Ikkaku uses Edorad's time of confusion to his advantage and shunpo's on top of Edorad and cut his arm. yep.

And Ikkaku's bankai's extremely weak defenses were also revealed. Edorad cracked Ikkaku's bankai by blocking not attacking, which mean Ikkaku's own power could be his own demise, and I'm pretty damn sure Hihou Zabimaru can take more of a beating then Edorad can.

Ikkaku could of instantly went bankai like renji/toushiro did and won extremly easily , Ikkaku's full power is well above Renji's full power , Don't see how Renji could win.

So what you're basically saying is that if Ikkaku(who had no limit on him what so ever) that had gone straight to bankai and killed an unreleased arrancar, that makes him stronger than Renji? So that means you believe a 100% power Renji going bankai can't kill an unreleased Illforte? I really hope you're not judging from the battle they had, cause I really don't want to bring up the Mathcraft in releasing the limit...

Also considering just how much damage Ikkaku can deal with is insane , he took so many straight hits and he was still able to stand and pull out his bankai and win. I don't think Renji could of won against Edorad.

So you're saying Renji can't take hits? I'm pretty sure him taking a Getsuga Tenshou, Senbonzakura Kageyoshi's direct attack and Aizen nearly cutting his arm off, all under the span of 2-3 days and walking away from it is a much greater acheivment than taking a couple smacks across the face and loosing some teeth.

A judging against the opponents both respective combatants fought is not always the best use of debating. It's basically saying Shikai Ichigo is stronger then Tousen since Tousen lost to Zaraki, whom himself lost to Shikai Icihgo. Whether he can beat Edorad is null and void because Renji has shown us abilities and his versatality to take Ikkaku on. Also, despite Renji admitting that he might've lost, it doesn't mean he would've gotten creamed. If anything it could've turned out like Ikkaku's fight with a fighter barely surviving.

Bankai Ikkaku barely surviving his fight is basically equal in meaning to Renji losing his fight, since it no doubt would've had around the same ending to Ikkaku's fight.

Momentum

06-07-2008, 04:51 AM

Someone had to kick ass...

And I just realized how bad it hurts.

I didn't realize that having more spotlight is relevant to winning. Greater speed, a better bankai and the advantage of having multiple offense capabilities do.

We ALWAYS see Renji which led to us learning more about him. Anything "new" about him, we'll know right away.

Manga = Cannon? If the manga makes it look fast, doesn't that mean it really is fast?.. Unless Kubo draws Zabimaru stretching out to fire his Bone cannon himself, I'm going to assume that it can just simply fire it with no stretching in any shape or form. The anime adds alot of unnecessary content which basically messes debates up.

The manga has pictures, it'll make it look fast. Its like reading an instruction manual of something. You have the idea of how it works BUT you don't actually know how it really works. Don't you understand better when someone shows you how to do something rather than trying to guess for yourself?

But whatever, I see the light. :)

Undying

06-07-2008, 12:05 PM

And I just realized how bad it hurts.
:biggrinki I can be user friendly...

We ALWAYS see Renji which led to us learning more about him. Anything "new" about him, we'll know right away.

I still can't quite see the relevance to that making Renji stronger. While it's true that a limited spotlight leaves more opening for the good old "woah, I haz learned new abilities in the million chapters you haven't seen my handsome face!" gambit, but I have trouble believing Ikkaku can pull out stuff that can outdo Renji's bankai. Although, maybe he can develop some sort of a specialty attack that does let him go over.

But that's speculation. By what we've seen, I'd say that Renji has the advantage of speed, bankai, and offensive versatility (hey, he CAN pull Kidou, even though it sometimes turns out to be a small pop and other times a massive explosion in Renji's face :Haha).

Gingermadman

06-07-2008, 05:20 PM

I'm not saying it as if Ikkaku would totally annihilate Renji , in fact i think this is probably one of the most even pairings in Bleach , i just think in a 1 against 1 battle Renji would be hard pressed to beat Ikkaku.

Experience with bankai against him , every time I've seen Renji use it I've been less than impressed with his fights (although occasionally the boost in speed in his bankai is impressive) . Like i said before if Renji can't find an opening for his bankai to hit hard he may never win , which is why the limit release surprised illforte enough for him to stay still (i think, been a while since i read that chapter) and take the bankais brunt head on.

edit. plus i agree i don't think Ikkaku's bankai has any special abilities, i think he's a pure sword (or giant axe/blade things) to sword guy.
I also don't think speed wise Renji has much going for him, whereas Ikkaku does. The weakest part about Renji's bankai i think is the fact you can shunpo inside and hit him , most of the time he'll do that annoying surprised face all these characters in bleach do and take it , although if he's fast enough he can wrap zabimaru around him although that could work in Ikkaku favour , seems like he'd enjoy using big thing hitting big thing.

i'm sorry if i came off high and mighty ,but this is my opinion and i really do think Ikkaku could take this, plus he gets 100 cool points for seeming like a demon when he released his bankai.

Chi

06-08-2008, 09:59 AM

hmmm... I still think Renji would take it in a bankai battle, Ikakku has no real way we know to avoid or withstand a direct hit from baboon cannon. Plus it SEEMS like renji has a greater pool of reiatsu then Ikakku.

JaguarX

06-15-2008, 12:08 AM

If anything, I'd say Renji is more of a tank than Ikkaku. The numerous times that Renji has taken beatings from various opponents and still had the drive to continue fighting, puts him just above Ikkaku, in my opinion. The two are well-matched in fighting ability, and swords, shikai, and bankai. Another reason Renji would fare better is because he has some good kidou abilities, that the squad 11 members rarely use. It would be a good close fight, but Renji's bankai has better defenses and offense than Ikkaku's. Ikkaku would not be able to cut through Renji's bankai because they are held together with his reiatsu. Renji wins this, the student has surpassed the master. :)

captainmawaluigi

06-15-2008, 12:45 AM

You guys keep using dbz style of logic, thinking a is stronger than b and that makes him stronger than c....once again its all on technique

Say they are the same power, just for the fights sake, look at the options Renji can showcase that Ikkau cant.

kidou and long range fighting. Just cuz Renjis shikai can whip out, it doesnt have too...he can still cut you in a saw like fashion, or use his split apart move, and rip you apart from a distance.

His final release is also superior. While Ikkaku is still warming up, renji will chase you down with his bankai, not giving Ikkaku the time to charge up....cuz he would be fighting for his life, and eventually die from a shot from the cannon. What can Ikkaku do to counter that? Renji can avoid Ikkakus attacks and dislocate his bankai, or, he can use a vertebra to protect himself from Ikkakus bankai and use his kidou to change things up.

How can you guys see renji take byakuyas bankai, almost die twice, and still get up to charge after his captain...and while Ikkakus fights are all epic, all he did was like..lose a tooth or two.....his body was not diced up like Renji's was, and even when fighting an espada and basically losing....look at the resolve renji showed with just his shikai and kidou!?! He would murk Ikkaku