So wait...what IS Ichigo?

[LegendaryXM90]

Ok, I've watched up to episode 113 now. I haven't read the manga. Here are some things I've noticed based on what Ichigo has done in the anime:

1. He's removed his mask multiple times (Ep. 19/58)
2. He's had half a mask multiple times (Ep. 58/Some random Bounto episode)
3. He's a shinigami.

So wait. From what I've observed, Viazards remove their masks, Arrancars are wearing pieces of their masks, and shinigami have no masks.

So...WTF IS ICHIGO???

[pero_renji!]

Hes a human ^^.Like human shinigami with hollow powers rofl :D.

[Nicole]

This'll be a spoiler, but...



I believe Ichigo's a vaizard. Later on, he'll go to train with them and be able to use a full mask to cover his face to power him up for a short amount of time, like a vaizard.

Now if we knew more about what vaizards were, I could answer your question better.


My speculation is that Ichigo's a vaizard.

[Kagebu]

Ok, I've watched up to episode 113 now. I haven't read the manga. Here are some things I've noticed based on what Ichigo has done in the anime:
1. He's removed his mask multiple times (Ep. 19/58)
2. He's had half a mask multiple times (Ep. 58/Some random Bounto episode)
3. He's a shinigami.
So wait. From what I've observed, Viazards remove their masks, Arrancars are wearing pieces of their masks, and shinigami have no masks.
So...WTF IS ICHIGO???
You got it wrong. Vaizards don't remove their masks, they gain masks. You see, Vaizards are Shinigami who gain Hollow powers, and activate those hollow powers by forming a Hollow's mask on their faces. Hirako is able to materialize his Hollow mask at will, while Ichigo is still not in control over his Hollow. You can discern all of this if you payed more attention to the little details. Ichigo is a Vaizard.

Arrancar are Hollows who remove their masks and gain Shinigami powers, though they still have renmants of their masks remaining. If you'll notice, all Arrancar have gained a Zanpakutou. Basically, Arrancar have broken masks and a Zanpakutou.

[Alerane]

From what I've seen my opinion is he is most like the vaizards

[Kodoku]

Hiroku, I think that's his name, specifically says Ichigo is the same as him. Pretty good evidence to say Ichigo is a vaizard, methinks.

[dragado123]

Ichigo is a vaizard. Although the definition for vaizard is different then what he is o well.

Vaizard definition - A group of banned shinigami that escape shinigami to gain hollow powers. (or something like that. If i'm wrong please correct me :))

So yeah that's what Ichigo is. He has hollow power but is not a banned shinigami so yea.

[Sinist3r]

yup ichigo is a vaizard...


He was able to become a shinigami with large spirit powers on earth because his father was a captain before....
Later with urahara's training he gained a hollow spirit within him

[theblack_dragon]

i think he is half viazard did it accur to anyone that mr. hat and clothes did this to ichigo during training

[Fallen One]

I believe that Sandal Hat ( Pimp hat guy ) new Ichigo had a hollow deep down made before, just not activated. So during the training he activated his hollow and now its growing and growing untell.. its comeplete. Because Sandal Hats here would not have know the Viazards where comming without knowing what they where comming for, Ichigo.

[spiderman121]

From what I can see, Arrancars and Vaizards are basically the same thing, failed attempts at becoming a higher spirt being that has the strengths of hollow and shinigami and no weaknesses. The only difference between them is thier orginal state - hollow or shinigami. In theory, there would be no difference between a perfected Arrancar or Vaizard, but since there is no perfected of eithier, they hold different definitions. I do not think Ichigo is failed attempt, but unfortunatley has to evolve into his final state. To me it seems that Ichigo is Urahara's pet project that is endorsed by his dad (which is way to informed). Urahara probabley had Ichigo planed out either before he left soul society or immediatley after. I think Ichigo's difference will be that he will merge Ichigo, Hollow Ichigo, and Zangetsu into one sound mind and body. Time will tell, but I think he fall under a different definition that we have not been made aware of yet.

[Que Sera Sera]

Maybe Kubo Tite may introduce a new type of spirit...Something like what ichigo is now

[theblack_dragon]

i think he is Urahara's but come on i think it was planned because he knew aizen was looking for the device that was given to rukia so he tried to corrct eveything but i noticed that all the training ichigo got Urahara's did it as well
so what is Urahara cause he is still is mystery so me hence
why he left the soul society.....for earth

[Decado]

about Urahara:
why he left the soul society.....for earth
he didn't leave... he was kicked out for his experiments etc..

bout Ichigo:

Ichigo's a Vaizard.

- A shinigami with a hollow inside
- He will learn to control the hollow
- His mask allows him hollow/shinigami type abilities
- Temporary Mask + Zanpakutou = Vaizard

I think Ichigo's difference will be that he will merge Ichigo, Hollow Ichigo, and Zangetsu into one sound mind and body. Time will tell, but I think he fall under a different definition that we have not been made aware of yet.
Maybe. But Shinji & co.... they all have the hollow within, and they are Vaizard.

[spiderman121]

Do Vaizards still have a spirtual entity that they can communicate to in thier Zanpaktou? It seems Ichigo has not been able to "communicate" with his since his episode with the the hollow ichigo takeover. I would think this is just coincidence, since he still has Bankai which seems to be a Zangetsu function.

[Decado]

that's kind of answered in the manga at this point..


Hollow Ichigo states he is "Old Man Zangetsu" but Ichigo doesn't believe him.
ie/ He has taken over Zangetsu.

therefore, whenever ichigo heard Zangetsu, he now hears Ogihci - namely because Ogihci is taking over not only his zanp, but his entire soul

[spiderman121]

Ichigo, is of course, still human - not gigia (spelling?) but a normal human kid. He borrowed some powers from Rukia, but I do not think they truthfully mean anything. As a human, being a spirit, he regained his spirit power, meet his true Zanpaktou (Zangetsu), became a shinigami and appeared to pick up a dormant hollow all at the same time. I'll admit he appears to follow any definition of Vaizard, but I think this is a coincidence. He never seems to follow any conventional pattern we have seen. Urahara seems a little to smart to have not known this would happen to Ichigo and not dumb enough to stick the thing in Rukia, so Aizen could get it at his convience. I am still thinking that being human first, gaining Death god and Hollow at apparently the same time, kind of throws him out of the Vaizard realm. Once again, I do not understand the manga enough to debate anything that arises in it, but the Vaizard that introduced himself to Ichigo, led me to believe that the hollow side was added after being a Shinigami.

[Decado]

@spiderman121:


I am still thinking that being human first, gaining Death god and Hollow at apparently the same time, kind of throws him out of the Vaizard realm
His father was a shinigami, which already made him a shinigami beforehand, therefore he was never "just a human."

Grand Fisher's quote: "so he was a true blood"

the Vaizard that introduced himself to Ichigo, led me to believe that the hollow side was added after being a Shinigami.
Of course. This is most probably the case with ALL the Vaizard.

His hollow form came about during the "shattered shaft" incident, where Urahara had ichigo in that hole, and his spirit was being eaten until Ichigo escaped, with the mask on his face.
That is when the hollow form materiliased itself.

Some ppl actually debate this, saying that he had a hollow within before, but it only released itself to the surface during this time.
I don't believe this, b/c I'm following facts given to us.

[spiderman121]

Of course, bleach has just enough loop holes, and half explinations so we can never truely guess what is going to happen - make for a great anime.

Ichigo seems to always to get his power or progress in unusual ways. I still can not get my mind around why he always has shikia. I just have a feeling Urahara is a lot more than we are being shown and Ichigo is still not at his final state.

[rhoden23]

i agree with spiderman. ichigo is still not on his final state..

[Decado]

Final state?
care to elaborate?

We've seen him "released" as that beast anyway in the manga... if u've read it you'll know which part i mean - when he's training with the Vaizard.
That's when his hollow has dominance and he becomes that walking lizard type creature.
That's his final state, if you read the manga... and he can only get there if Ogihci completely takes over.

[Undying]

Ichigo is a Visored. He had fully developed shinigami powers, hence the Shattered Shaft worked with him.

Then he achieved a mask, and a Hollow inside him.

The Visored are, by definition, "shinigami who gained a Hollow within them".

Ichigo fits the description perfectly.

Therefore, Ichigo is a Visored.

And as for "arrancar", the are "Hollows who broke their masks". In order to be labeled "arrancar", you must first be a Hollow. Since Ichigo wasn't a Hollow, he's not an arrancar.

I think that pretty much answers all possible questions...

[T_Ichigo]

well I've already predicted that he's a vaizard, I wrote a thread about my thouhgts somewhere, hmm don't remember

[Pi-Chan]

Definately a Vaizard. Like Undying said, he fits a Vaizard perfectly.

[Slixer]

he's a Vizard just not a good one, Hollow Ichigo is Zangetsu's Evil side or at least he says so in the manga

[dragado123]

Ok well he doesn't actually fit into the category Vizard 100%

A vizard doesn't actually mean that you just learn hollow powers and all it also states that you are a exiled or banned shinigami. Ichigo is not a exiled or banned shinigami.

[Setsuna Ai]

Ok, I've watched up to episode 113 now. I haven't read the manga. Here are some things I've noticed based on what Ichigo has done in the anime:
1. He's removed his mask multiple times (Ep. 19/58)
2. He's had half a mask multiple times (Ep. 58/Some random Bounto episode)
3. He's a shinigami.
So wait. From what I've observed, Viazards remove their masks, Arrancars are wearing pieces of their masks, and shinigami have no masks.
So...WTF IS ICHIGO???
I may have misunderstood you but... (sorry about the spoilers!)

Vaizards are not people who remove their masks. They are simply renegade shinigami who gained strong hollow powers. The mask they wear when unleashing their power is not only proof, but as I said, unleashes their true power. Arrancars are hollows who removed their masks. Fragments of their mask is a sign of that transformation. Shinigami are simple..soul slayers. They wear no mask for they do not have traits that Vaizards and Arrancar share. Both groups tried to attain forbidden powers from each "family". Ichigo, to answer your question, is a supremely strong shinigami (a trait from his father) who gained hollow powers through hollow transformation, thus making him a Vaizard. It's only his stubbornness that makes him classify himself as a Shinigami.



@dragado, being banned or exiled isn't a qualification or requirement people need to pass to be a Vaizard. It is only a similarity that the Vaizards share. The only reason why they are called "renegade" shinigami is because most of them..or at least all of them were banned for trying to become Vaizards in the first place. It was forbidden from the start and they knew it. The mere desire to become a Vaizard exiled them from Soul Society.

[mthegreatone]

so looking at the big picture....this means that vaizards aren't really bad people. from what i'm trying to understand from this thread the shinigami gain hollow powers by choice, and not so much that the powers were forced on them. which means they can still be themselves as long as they control the hollow within them.

i'm just trying to understand this because the way vaizards have been introduced in the anime make them look like bad guys IMO............and yeah i haven't read the manga so i don't know squat about the whole vaizard/arrancar situation.

[thousand sakuras]

i think ichigo is an arrancar vizard crossbreed. he does have a mask therefore he is a vizard, but he stripped it of so hes an arrancar.

[dragado123]

@dragado, being banned or exiled isn't a qualification or requirement people need to pass to be a Vaizard. It is only a similarity that the Vaizards share. The only reason why they are called "renegade" shinigami is because most of them..or at least all of them were banned for trying to become Vaizards in the first place. It was forbidden from the start and they knew it. The mere desire to become a Vaizard exiled them from Soul Society.

Well i guess that does make sense lol.

@thousand sakuras, the only reason he is stripped out of his mask is because he doesn't know how to control the hollow powers yet. Once he does learn how to control the power then he is able to put on the mask whenever he wants just like how Hiroko did when he was somewhat fighting Ichigo on episode 110. (even though he didn't put it on he could've)

[Setsuna Ai]

so looking at the big picture....this means that vaizards aren't really bad people. from what i'm trying to understand from this thread the shinigami gain hollow powers by choice, and not so much that the powers were forced on them. which means they can still be themselves as long as they control the hollow within them.
i'm just trying to understand this because the way vaizards have been introduced in the anime make them look like bad guys IMO............and yeah i haven't read the manga so i don't know squat about the whole vaizard/arrancar situation.
to put it without adding in any MAJOR spoilers, you aren't necessarily a bad person for obtaining vaizard level. Yes they do seem like bad guys thanks to how Hirako introduced their kind. In a way based on how your point of view is, Vaizards CAN be bad guys just on how you look at it. You see, the mere lust for power, which was what the Vaizards had in mind (you don't need proof, it was very well implied that people had to do a lot of research to become) thus they had a choice. I guess they chose power, and to some people choosing power may mean you are not only selfish but a person who has the desire to fight/kill, I guess in some terms, that can be called being evil. I suggest reading the manga or to wait for more anime episodes to have some explanations.

[spiderman121]

Decado - Final state? care to elaborate?

I have read the manga, but I am not able to follow it 100% because of the layout. What I mean is that Ichigo will be trained by the Vaizard, because that is the only apperent group that can help him proceed. He does fit the Vaizard characteristics perfectly, by all current appearences. I think this is deceiving though and this is why. Back to my point that Arrancar and Vaizards are apparently both the same thing, a forced attempt at gaining the opposite powers, but failing to perfect the proccess. On the Arracar side, this appears to be obvious due to the "hole" and Vaizard having no obvious signs that I can see. If the process was worked out 100% perfect, than you probabley would not be able to tell if they started as a hollow or shinigami. They would then follow under a different category. Now as Ichigo falls into this, he apparently awakened his death god and hollow powers during the shattered shaft episode. Without any fact as of yet in the anime that I can see, I am still guessing this is a unique way that was not done by the other Vaizards. Thus he will accept training from the Vaizards, since they are the only people that have some experience in that area. I think Ichigo's final state will be that form of a 100% perfected Arracar or Vaizard, which of course we have not even seen or know if it is actually possible. You can not deny that Ichigo appears to never follow the rules as any other charcter in bleach. The method of awaking his death god powers, permanent Shikai, and the apperent tampering by Urahara. - could be that he is a Vaizard, but I would have to say it would be a tremendous let down in the story, due to his wild history line.

[goodie]

Ok, at the start, Ichigo was a human, with Shinigami powers buried in his soul, he then gained another set of powers from Rukia, he then proceeded to get his ass handed to him by Buakyua (sp), and lost them.
He then gained them back, in a one shot try at becoming a Shinigami, the downside is if he failed he became a hollow. Because Ichigo took so long to become a Shinigami, he gained a inner hollow, although he remained mostly in charge.
And later on, Ichigo learns to control his inner hollow, so he can keep his sanity, during this process, Ochigo takes over his body, while Ochigo and Ichigo fight it out in Ichigos inner world, for control. During this time, Ichigo becomes fully hollow, and its implied (IMO) a very strong Hollow at that.
After he controls his hollow, he is able to bring down his mask, at will, and gain a power boost (think of it how in the Buakyua fight when his mask came out he was suddenly able to kick ass, but only Ichigo is in control ^^), And use Hollow powers (its implied that these powers cant be used without the mask, but no one has actually said this), Such as Cero (the big beam that the menos fires at him in the first 15 or so eps iirc).

[Full Metal Ichigo]

There's something that bugs me about the situation. During the "Shattered Shaft" exercise, Urahara mentioned that something was strange about the fact that the hollow mask was forming first. He stated that when a plus becomes a hollow, the body changes first, followed by the mask (as was shown when Sora became a hollow). What's the significance of the mask forming first? It could mean that he already had a hollow in him and had "awoken" in the Shattered Shaft.

However, (yes, I'm going to contradict my own post...it's not like this answer is the correct one...or is it? okay, enough shennanigans!) since Ichigo was already a Shinigami (even though his powers hadn't awakened at this point), it's possible he was become a Vizard.

[Undying]

It's no possible, it is. Ichigo fits the prerequisite for a Vizard 100%.

A shinigami who gained a Hollow. Ichigo had shinigami powers all along (Zanegtsu: "but he (Byakuya) failed to notice that you had your own shinigami powers!"), and when the Hollow started forming, he resisted.

The result was that both a Hollow was created inside him, and he had shinigami powers. I.e., a Vizard.

[Pyramus]

yeppers! Undying knows all! But now that his hollow is tryin to take control of him forever, i wonder if the Vaizard can help him!

[thematrix]

Ichigo IS NOT A VAIZARD.

Goddamnit cut the bullocks. Hes NOT a VAIZARD!

Ichigo is "The One", every storyline like this has one like him, hes the character in the storyline thats different and setup to be more then everyone else.

Arancars are hollows who take of their masks.
Vaizards are shinigami who gain their masks.

When you die, you either become a Shinigami, Hollow or if you have no power, a plus.

Ichigo didn't die, and he became both Shinigami and Hollow at the same time, he never was one and became the other, he was always both.

Hes the central caracter of this manga and anime.
Hes what both sides want to become but can never truely be.
Hes the one and only pure hybrid.

[.Zero Nue]

Dude I may have to disagree with that.. He did died on one of the earliest episodes in order to regain his powers... What Urahara did to him is making him die inorder to regain his true powers.

[thematrix]

If he was dead he would need a faux body yet hes wearing his real body still.
He doesn't need soma fixers either.

He didn't die and hes became both shinigami and hollow at the same time.

Hes is the cliché center person in a powerup storyline. The one that is what everyone else wants to be but never can or will be.

[dragado123]

Ichigo IS NOT A VAIZARD.

Goddamnit cut the bullocks. Hes NOT a VAIZARD!

Ichigo is "The One", every storyline like this has one like him, hes the character in the storyline thats different and setup to be more then everyone else.

Arancars are hollows who take of their masks.
Vaizards are shinigami who gain their masks.

When you die, you either become a Shinigami, Hollow or if you have no power, a plus.

Ichigo didn't die, and he became both Shinigami and Hollow at the same time, he never was one and became the other, he was always both.

Hes the central caracter of this manga and anime.
Hes what both sides want to become but can never truely be.
Hes the one and only pure hybrid.

Seriously i would have to 100% disagree ................ Ichigo did not became a shinigami by absorbing power from Rukia or died to get them. He got his shinigami power from Isshin and then Rukia just awaken his power. He did not became a shinigami and a hollow at the same time. Urahara was the one who gave him Hollow power at the same time restore his shinigami power. And in your definition, u said vizard are shinigami who gained their masked so how is it different then how Ichigo gained his mask? So yea Ichigo is a vizard

[Decado]

Ichigo IS NOT A VAIZARD.

Goddamnit cut the bullocks. Hes NOT a VAIZARD!

Ichigo didn't die, and he became both Shinigami and Hollow at the same time, he never was one and became the other, he was always both.


Hes the one and only pure hybrid.
he was always part shinigami b/c of his father.

Thus, he was a shinigami who gained hollow powers... as i've said before in this thread wiht my validations... he's a Vaizard.

[spiderman121]

I do not think it is that simple. If he was always a shinigami, he would not had to find his death god powers and would not have had a chance of becoming a hollow. His first manifestation of death god powers, would be his first true point of being a shinigami. If you go by that, he would be technically a Arrancar, due to becoming a hollow at first (by at least a few seconds). But he has no "hole" so therfore he can not be an Arrancar. He therefore has to be a Vaizard or something else. Since we have not been shown the proccess of how Vaizard obtain thier hollow side, we can only speculate. I do think Ichigo is the product of Urahara's expermentations. I think he is the "something else". Call it a perfect hybrid or whatever, but his circumstances do seem at odds for the current Vaizard. Though I think Vaizard are the only group that can help him progress, untill his true nature becomes apparent.

[Kimochi]

he is totally a vaizard.. he's a hollow + shinigami!! only that he's on the good side..
he know's how to control just like vaizard makes them no differ from him

[dragado123]

I do not think it is that simple. If he was always a shinigami, he would not had to find his death god powers and would not have had a chance of becoming a hollow. His first manifestation of death god powers, would be his first true point of being a shinigami. If you go by that, he would be technically a Arrancar, due to becoming a hollow at first (by at least a few seconds). But he has no "hole" so therfore he can not be an Arrancar. He therefore has to be a Vaizard or something else. Since we have not been shown the proccess of how Vaizard obtain thier hollow side, we can only speculate. I do think Ichigo is the product of Urahara's expermentations. I think he is the "something else". Call it a perfect hybrid or whatever, but his circumstances do seem at odds for the current Vaizard. Though I think Vaizard are the only group that can help him progress, untill his true nature becomes apparent.
Well because he was born in the human world how do you expect a person to just learn about shinigami and stuff like that. He needs proper training but i think Isshin just didn't want to. The only reason why he has a hollow power is because of Urahara and his method of getting shinigami power back.
he is totally a vaizard.. he's a hollow + shinigami!! only that he's on the good side..
he know's how to control just like vaizard makes them no differ from him
Well actually hollow + shinigami = arrancar. It's suppose to be shinigami + hollow = vizard.

[GreenKnight]

You got it wrong. Vaizards don't remove their masks, they gain masks. You see, Vaizards are Shinigami who gain Hollow powers, and activate those hollow powers by forming a Hollow's mask on their faces. Hirako is able to materialize his Hollow mask at will, while Ichigo is still not in control over his Hollow. You can discern all of this if you payed more attention to the little details. Ichigo is a Vaizard.

Arrancar are Hollows who remove their masks and gain Shinigami powers, though they still have renmants of their masks remaining. If you'll notice, all Arrancar have gained a Zanpakutou. Basically, Arrancar have broken masks and a Zanpakutou.

Yes you are correct. I agree compleately. :toocool:


Well because he was born in the human world how do you expect a person to just learn about shinigami and stuff like that. He needs proper training but i think Isshin just didn't want to. The only reason why he has a hollow power is because of Urahara and his method of getting shinigami power back.

I belive the answer to this question is that the humans die and go to soul society. Then they go to the academy and get trained and become a deathgod. Then after becoming a deathgod they decide they want more power(like Aizen) or w/e and run away from soulsociety and join the hollow world and gain hollow powers. Thus becomming deathgod first and hollow 2nd which = Vaizards.

[Livinginadreamworld]

I'm going to go with the seeming minority here and say Ichigo is something different from a Vaizard. It's what he's closest to right now, but the thing about a character like Ichigo is he always goes to the next level. He always rises above everyone else and becomes something that will save the day.

Aizen's goal is to become the perfect combination of hollow/shingami right? It's made apparent that a person who did would obtain the greatest amount of powers. Yet the Vaizard and the Arrancar have varying amounts of power. But none of them (I'd suspect) would have the strength of Aizen or the perfect combination of shingami and hollow.

Which means while Ichigo may be a vaizard now, he's destined to be at that higher level when it comes time to take down Aizen.

[esrz22]

Yeah, I don't see Ichigo being a Vaizard. Remember, they gain Hollow powers and all. But, Ichigo didn't. He got his Hollow side at the same time he gained his own Shinigami powers. This may be nitpicky, but I have the feeling it'll mean something.

[candyb3ar]

ichigo is a vizard that cannot hold or maniuplate his powers as of yet, these vizards are able to pick and choose when they wanna change, where as ichigo has no control of this ,and hense why they wants him...to teach him...plus other stuff that i cannot say...:)

[dragado123]

Yeah, I don't see Ichigo being a Vaizard. Remember, they gain Hollow powers and all. But, Ichigo didn't. He got his Hollow side at the same time he gained his own Shinigami powers. This may be nitpicky, but I have the feeling it'll mean something.
Wait r u sure that Ichigo got his hollow power the same time as shinigami power? Cuz wat i thought was that Urahara was the one who made Ichigo gained hollow power when Ichigo wanted to revive his shinigami power

[esrz22]

Wait r u sure that Ichigo got his hollow power the same time as shinigami power? Cuz wat i thought was that Urahara was the one who made Ichigo gained hollow power when Ichigo wanted to revive his shinigami power
Urahara was making him get his powers (his own powers, as opposed to those syphoned from Rukia) at that time. When he emerge, he had both the Hollow part and the Shinigami part. It seemed to me he got them at the same time. :toocool:

[Decado]

He couldn't have got them at the same time as i said on the last page, and the page before...

His father is a shinigami. Thus shinigami is in his blood. he was always a shinigami, the moment he was born. just cos he wasn't wearing the robe and slaying hollows doesn't mean he wasn't one. He had the power within, in his blood but he never learnt how to use it - only borrowing Rukia's powers for that short time.

Urahara simply brought it out. He was already a shinigami, and thus received the hollow powers later.

He is a Vaizard.

[Lust]

yea....in a episode(dunno which one) shom him in the form of vaizard

[sniperz]

well for wat i know. he gets stronger at the moment he fought grimjow at the latest manga.it shows him having the new power of 11 seconds hollow mask to improve great str/speed but he needs to practise more if he needs to like 1 minute over? well that might be a very strong ichigo in the future lol.from wat i know. he seems to obtain the control of hollow a bit.we have to see wats gonna happen at manga.but now its about chad getting freaking strong after getting another hand.looks like chad has a captain lvl reaitsu soon.

[Undying]

@thematrix: jeez, cut the bullocks will ya? Sheesh.

Zangetsu: "but he (Byakuya) failed to notice you had your own shinigami power".

Ichigo is not "the one" or other bullshit like that. He's a fucking Vaizard.

Ichigo was A SHINIGAMI BEFORE HE GOT A HOLLOW.

He's a Vaizard.

[spiderman121]

Undying - So what constitutes a Shinigami. How many humans might have 'hidden' death god powers, but will die, got to soul society and train before they become a death god? Do they have to manifest thier powers before they become Shinigami or is it some birthright and anyone that has death god powers that are unware, is a Shinigami? I do not recall them ever going into detail on what series of events or criteria are needed to be an actual Shinigami. When Ichigo borrowed Rukia's powers, he was not considered a Shinigami - just a ryoka with borrowed death god powers. I don't agree with this 'One' thing, but I do believe that there are a lot of factors that make him being a Vaizard not absolute. I am done beating a dead horse, but Vaizard or not, there is definatley room for other possibilities.

[Decado]

When Ichigo borrowed Rukia's powers, he was not considered a Shinigami - just a ryoka with borrowed death god powers.
I've already answered this in previous posts....

he was not a Shinigami because he took her powers. He is a shinigami from birth, because his father is one. It runs in the blood.

He was always a shinigami. As i said before, he just didn't know how to control/be one. As i said before, (again - read other posts too everyone) just b/c he was not wearing the robe slaying hollows didn't mean he wasn't a shinigami. He had it in his blood b/c his father is a shinigami. That's y he kept leaking his reiatsu everywhere, and y his power is so high.

Again: He was a shinigami before he took Rukia's powers.
He was one before he got the hollow powers.

That means he's a Vaizard (at this point in time, all definitions point to him being a pure Vaizard.

As u said earlier in your other posts spider... he could go on to exceed this, as he is the hero and all that. So the possibility of something after vaizard may exist in the future, but not atm. He is currently a Vaizard.)

[spiderman121]

So that makes Ichigo's sisters shinigami then?
All, they would need is a 'shove' in the right direction.

[gdo01]

So that makes Ichigo's sisters shinigami then?
All, they would need is 'shove' in the right direction.
Well, Karin already can see all spirits and Yuzu is almost at that point too. If Ichigo can get that powerful by age 15, I think his sisters are going at a good pace. Too bad the moment they do get shinigami powers is the moment Bleach becomes Bleach GT.

[tenebrusmke79]

Ichigo IS a vaizard. I am going to say something that all of you haven't mentioned before: Shinji said "We are kin"... meaning Shinji knew Ichigo was a vaizard... so there you are.. Ichigo is a Vaizard (he had Shinigami power BEFORE the hollow powers even started to emerge (thanks to Isshin).

Also, @ thematrix: this isn't Matrix, Ichigo isn't Neo, or any of the "Ones" from that movie series. Sorry.. Ichigo is a whole different entity.

[orange big heart]

What complicate things is that Ichigo is still a shinigami HUMAN with a real body not dead yet!
Vizards are (spirits) shinigames who gained hollows powers.
am I wrong? Anyone agrees with me?

[hellfang]

ichigo's hollow mask is pretty cool. lol

[Damascus]

Ah, I had forgotten the fact that he has Shinigami blood in him. In that case if he would be a Vaizard. I was going to give the same argument of him having "gained" his Shinigami and Hollow powers simultaneously. Then again, he wasn't a literal Shinigami at birth (ie, not a spirit), he was still a human. In that case if you count the emergence of Shinigami powers with Urahara as his actual "becoming" a Shinigami, he would be a sort of Vaizard/Arrancar hybrid.

[sosolid]

ya weird how shinji and the others can do hollow mode while human and ichigo has to go shinigami then hollow

[hellfang]

this stuff is a bit complicated lets just say ichigo is special ok...lol

[Undying]

Ah, I had forgotten the fact that he has Shinigami blood in him. In that case if he would be a Vaizard. I was going to give the same argument of him having "gained" his Shinigami and Hollow powers simultaneously. Then again, he wasn't a literal Shinigami at birth (ie, not a spirit), he was still a human. In that case if you count the emergence of Shinigami powers with Urahara as his actual "becoming" a Shinigami, he would be a sort of Vaizard/Arrancar hybrid.
Shot down by: But who said the Vizards aren't the same? It's possible that they gained Hollow and shinigami powers at once, too, like Ichigo.

[Inner_Hollow]

I think that Ichigo is a unique creature altogether, he could potentially be a true hybrid.

[tenebrusmke79]

I had a thought last night while watching the later episodes in the 50s, Byakuya said that only a very few of the nobles can have the power to learn/use a bankai, so this got me to thinking, I wonder if Ichigo could have a distant relative within a noble family of the Shinigami, or else that Isshin could have a relation that is part of a noble family. I think I may be wrong, but I was just thinking that this could possibly happen.

[metalkupo]

What complicate things is that Ichigo is still a shinigami HUMAN with a real body not dead yet!
Vizards are (spirits) shinigames who gained hollows powers.
am I wrong? Anyone agrees with me?

I think that is the key distinction people must remember when trying to understand what we will learn about Ichigo.

His father was a shinigami, and Urahara awoke his hollow side (Whether intentional or not is a debate all its own.) which leaves Ichigo in the classification of a Vizard. He is still human though, so that could explain the differences (Such as the amazing growth rate) between him and the other Vizard.

I think Ichigo as a unique character stems from the fact that he is the only shinigami who has hollow aspects while still being a human.

[Damascus]

Shot down by: But who said the Vizards aren't the same? It's possible that they gained Hollow and shinigami powers at once, too, like Ichigo.

Good point. I guess the whole issue there is how to actually describe what a Vizard is... :\ Cause I know Isshin said it was Shinigami who later gained Hollow powers.

[Kimochi]

one thing to say about ichigo . as i know ichigo is the REAL NATURE vaizard . where else the other vaizard is a mecha.
ichigo has the natural blood or a shinigami as his father is a shinigami .

[Undying]

So, um, what? So you're saying that aside from the Four Great Noble families, no shinigami in Seireitei is a shinigami?

Nice logic...

[kareen]

ok first of all technically ichigo is only half human considering his dad might have been in a gigai, and yes ichigo is a vizard, being the fact that he was always a shinigami (wether he knew it or not) then attained hollow powers, in episode 111 grand fisher says that ichigo is of pure blood and again ichigo is indeed a vizard

[paulsan2112]

ok, this thread intrigued me enough to register...
first post, regular reader for short time now...

(just so you know, i don't read the manga, only forums and wiki, so don't get pissy if i don't know exactly what will or won't happen, but i do know more than just the current anime episodes of course...)

just know that wiki currently lists ichigo as shinigami/vizard.
also know that wiki references the vizard as not exactly specific as to whether it is a SOUL TYPE or an ORGANIZATION (most likely both. all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are sqares... where does that leave ichigo, if he doesn't commit affiliation with the vizard GROUP, even if he is a vizardized soul-type [what I'm saying is that there may yet be another term for what a 'vizard' is that exactly means their race, as opposed to the 'vizard' as an organization. just like all arrancar aren't espada. oppositely, the race, if you will, of souls might correctly be called vizards, and the other vizards are or aren't refering to an organization coincidentally. ichigo could ineffectually be "insert 'scientific' race/soulterm here" (just an example fuketsu-shingigami) and not actually be aligned with the vizard organization, thus being like them in nature, but not one of them...
whew.

what is the implication of isshin being in gigai upon conception?
was his mother shini in gigai or just plain human (yet to be answered, correct?)?
so if he is a halfling, and not full blood shini (never understood the 'pure blood' if he could be a halfling...), then is his potential lessened, greater (a la gohan being more powerful, or at least advancing quicker, at half-blood in dragonball...), or uneffected?
on a side note, are shini powers like bloodlines... it's obvious when isshin kills arrencar grandfisher, that his attack resembles ichigos getsuga. would that make ossan zangetsu something like a sentient heirloom that skips many generations before showing his awsome powers again (somewhere it is alluded to great powers being many generations in gap). could zanpakutos be long-dead relatives that have transcended shini form? there seems to be something genetic in nature of the zanpaketos... (isshins even looks similar in hilts of unreleased forms...)
IF the ichigo bloodline is somehow related to a noble family, would that mean greater power, or does that have no effect?
is he even a shinigami (before answering that, i know he is. but it seems he isn't even that exactly... shinigami, by nature, are 'death gods' and in spiritual in nature... sure, he can escape gigai, but is that temporary death? [death in bleach being very vague]. it seems kinda gray to me. seems he is truly just a 'representative' as long as he is still living...)?
ichigo's bankai: unusual to say the least, at least in SHINIGAMI terms... notice in full release, it is almost safe to say that he basically fuses with zangetsu? what other creatures in bleach uni fuse with their zanpakutos (hint: at least one type that was in spoilers in earlier post... maybe others?).... this makes me think he is closer to a true hybrid, at least in potential. notice only incomplete hybrids fuse at this point (i'm uncertain as to what a release in vizard form is? do they fuse, or just have a regular bankai while also having the boost from the inner hollow and the ability to use certain hollow powers.
when was he vizardized: some say when he was shinigamizized(?) ie, when he "regained" his powers (read:both at the same time) or either that he was always a shinigami and that he was forced/tricked/coerced/experimented on/accidentally circumstantiated into vizardness via kisuke's methods... all that to say this:
honest question; when was the 'orb' (name escapes me) that aizen obtained placed in rukia? it escapes me. the reason is, if it was before her first meeting with ichigo, then whether or not you considered him shini at that time, I can't but help to wonder if the whole vizard thing was set in motion when she piered him (sounds rather sexual...). at least, maybe a seed was planted? this could all be wrong assuming it was hidden in her sometime afterward (which is probably the case). it would at least, to some extint to me, explain the unusual sequence/circumstances of transformation when ichigo got his hollow/shini powers back. also, this being anime, who's to say that having another shinigami force their powers onto either another shini or shini potential (ichigo or anyone else for that matter) wouldn't have some jolting effect or potential to taint his soul, thus also going back to the hollow seed being planted. it was a rather unorhodox method of transfering powers, and of course rukia didn't know (or rather, did she... guy that looked like ichi back in the day in SS...?) of his lineage when the power transfer took place. either way, it synergized his jump into shinigaminess...

some of this may be incorrect, or at least answered in the manga. most is off the top of my head, and i didn't reference much of anything. it's all either in this thread or wiki or the anime itself tho...

Let's just say that he has layers upon layers of UNUSUAL circumstances, at least relative to the bleach universe, surrounding him... so what is the deal with just sitting on the fence until this is resolved, if ever? I think, at this point, who knows what EXACTLY he is?

[paulsan2112]

BUMP. and not to double post for the sake of double posting. (an edit in a long post like that most likely would get looked over)




BUT, there were as many questions in there as there were points.




no one wants to reply at all? or is it beating a dead horse at this point?

[Undying]

ok, this thread intrigued me enough to register...
first post, regular reader for short time now...

(just so you know, i don't read the manga, only forums and wiki, so don't get pissy if i don't know exactly what will or won't happen, but i do know more than just the current anime episodes of course...)

just know that wiki currently lists ichigo as shinigami/vizard.
also know that wiki references the vizard as not exactly specific as to whether it is a SOUL TYPE or an ORGANIZATION (most likely both. all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are sqares... where does that leave ichigo, if he doesn't commit affiliation with the vizard GROUP, even if he is a vizardized soul-type [what I'm saying is that there may yet be another term for what a 'vizard' is that exactly means their race, as opposed to the 'vizard' as an organization. just like all arrancar aren't espada. oppositely, the race, if you will, of souls might correctly be called vizards, and the other vizards are or aren't refering to an organization coincidentally.
Vizard is a general term for the group that consists of shinigami who achieved Hollows powers. Ichigo, despite not being part of the group as of now, is stilla Vizard by nature.

It's like a pack of wolves. A wolf outside the pack is still a wolf, despite not being part of the original group.
ichigo could ineffectually be "insert 'scientific' race/soulterm here" (just an example fuketsu-shingigami) and not actually be aligned with the vizard organization, thus being like them in nature, but not one of them...
whew.
He's indeed not alligned with them as an organisation - i.e. his goals are different, probably - but he's still one of them.

what is the implication of isshin being in gigai upon conception?
was his mother shini in gigai or just plain human (yet to be answered, correct?)?
so if he is a halfling, and not full blood shini (never understood the 'pure blood' if he could be a halfling...), then is his potential lessened, greater (a la gohan being more powerful, or at least advancing quicker, at half-blood in dragonball...), or uneffected?
Being a "pure blood" (father shinigami - stated by Grand Fisher) means that the soul will have an easier time becoming a shinigami. In Ichigo's case, it meant that his shinigami powers began developing from the say he was born.

on a side note, are shini powers like bloodlines... it's obvious when isshin kills arrencar grandfisher, that his attack resembles ichigos getsuga. would that make ossan zangetsu something like a sentient heirloom that skips many generations before showing his awsome powers again (somewhere it is alluded to great powers being many generations in gap). could zanpakutos be long-dead relatives that have transcended shini form? there seems to be something genetic in nature of the zanpaketos... (isshins even looks similar in hilts of unreleased forms...)
Not really. The appearance of the attack in the anime is an added thing. It was a regular slash, and that's that. And as for inheritance, well, maybe - after all, a child would have something of his parents in him, right? Same applies for a zanpakto, probably.

IF the ichigo bloodline is somehow related to a noble family, would that mean greater power, or does that have no effect?
It would mean greater power as the nobles are simply all pure bloods.

is he even a shinigami (before answering that, i know he is. but it seems he isn't even that exactly... shinigami, by nature, are 'death gods' and in spiritual in nature... sure, he can escape gigai, but is that temporary death? [death in bleach being very vague]. it seems kinda gray to me. seems he is truly just a 'representative' as long as he is still living...)?
Shinigami, like Vizards, are defined by the existence of powers. Since Ichigo possesses the powers of a shinigami, Ichigo is a shinigami.

ichigo's bankai: unusual to say the least, at least in SHINIGAMI terms... notice in full release, it is almost safe to say that he basically fuses with zangetsu? what other creatures in bleach uni fuse with their zanpakutos (hint: at least one type that was in spoilers in earlier post... maybe others?).... this makes me think he is closer to a true hybrid, at least in potential. notice only incomplete hybrids fuse at this point (i'm uncertain as to what a release in vizard form is? do they fuse, or just have a regular bankai while also having the boost from the inner hollow and the ability to use certain hollow powers.
Future manga spoiler: Since the Hollow is merged with Zangetsu, and thus uses his powers, and Ichigo is merged with the Hollow inside him, there are some parts of Zangetsu that show on Ichigo.
That, or Ichigo's bankai is just unique in that that the "huge" part in it is not something palpable, but rather, and effect.

when was he vizardized: some say when he was shinigamizized(?) ie, when he "regained" his powers (read:both at the same time) or either that he was always a shinigami and that he was forced/tricked/coerced/experimented on/accidentally circumstantiated into vizardness via kisuke's methods... all that to say this:
honest question; when was the 'orb' (name escapes me) that aizen obtained placed in rukia? it escapes me. the reason is, if it was before her first meeting with ichigo, then whether or not you considered him shini at that time, I can't but help to wonder if the whole vizard thing was set in motion when she piered him (sounds rather sexual...). at least, maybe a seed was planted? this could all be wrong assuming it was hidden in her sometime afterward (which is probably the case). it would at least, to some extint to me, explain the unusual sequence/circumstances of transformation when ichigo got his hollow/shini powers back. also, this being anime, who's to say that having another shinigami force their powers onto either another shini or shini potential (ichigo or anyone else for that matter) wouldn't have some jolting effect or potential to taint his soul, thus also going back to the hollow seed being planted. it was a rather unorhodox method of transfering powers, and of course rukia didn't know (or rather, did she... guy that looked like ichi back in the day in SS...?) of his lineage when the power transfer took place. either way, it synergized his jump into shinigaminess...
Too much spoilers to put in one place... but either way, according to what Aizen said, it appears that the Hougyoku was plaved in Rukia before she even became a Shinigami. However, even if the orb was used on Ichigo, he is still a Vizard by definition: a shinigami who achieved Hollow powers, through whatever means.
some of this may be incorrect, or at least answered in the manga. most is off the top of my head, and i didn't reference much of anything. it's all either in this thread or wiki or the anime itself tho...

Let's just say that he has layers upon layers of UNUSUAL circumstances, at least relative to the bleach universe, surrounding him... so what is the deal with just sitting on the fence until this is resolved, if ever? I think, at this point, who knows what EXACTLY he is?
I know what he is, exactly: a VIZARD.

[Undying]

ok, this thread intrigued me enough to register...
first post, regular reader for short time now...

(just so you know, i don't read the manga, only forums and wiki, so don't get pissy if i don't know exactly what will or won't happen, but i do know more than just the current anime episodes of course...)

just know that wiki currently lists ichigo as shinigami/vizard.
also know that wiki references the vizard as not exactly specific as to whether it is a SOUL TYPE or an ORGANIZATION (most likely both. all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are sqares... where does that leave ichigo, if he doesn't commit affiliation with the vizard GROUP, even if he is a vizardized soul-type [what I'm saying is that there may yet be another term for what a 'vizard' is that exactly means their race, as opposed to the 'vizard' as an organization. just like all arrancar aren't espada. oppositely, the race, if you will, of souls might correctly be called vizards, and the other vizards are or aren't refering to an organization coincidentally.
Vizard is a general term for the group that consists of shinigami who achieved Hollows powers. Ichigo, despite not being part of the group as of now, is stilla Vizard by nature.

It's like a pack of wolves. A wolf outside the pack is still a wolf, despite not being part of the original group.
ichigo could ineffectually be "insert 'scientific' race/soulterm here" (just an example fuketsu-shingigami) and not actually be aligned with the vizard organization, thus being like them in nature, but not one of them...
whew.
He's indeed not alligned with them as an organisation - i.e. his goals are different, probably - but he's still one of them.

what is the implication of isshin being in gigai upon conception?
was his mother shini in gigai or just plain human (yet to be answered, correct?)?
so if he is a halfling, and not full blood shini (never understood the 'pure blood' if he could be a halfling...), then is his potential lessened, greater (a la gohan being more powerful, or at least advancing quicker, at half-blood in dragonball...), or uneffected?
Being a "pure blood" (father shinigami - stated by Grand Fisher) means that the soul will have an easier time becoming a shinigami. In Ichigo's case, it meant that his shinigami powers began developing from the say he was born.

on a side note, are shini powers like bloodlines... it's obvious when isshin kills arrencar grandfisher, that his attack resembles ichigos getsuga. would that make ossan zangetsu something like a sentient heirloom that skips many generations before showing his awsome powers again (somewhere it is alluded to great powers being many generations in gap). could zanpakutos be long-dead relatives that have transcended shini form? there seems to be something genetic in nature of the zanpaketos... (isshins even looks similar in hilts of unreleased forms...)
Not really. The appearance of the attack in the anime is an added thing. It was a regular slash, and that's that. And as for inheritance, well, maybe - after all, a child would have something of his parents in him, right? Same applies for a zanpakto, probably.

IF the ichigo bloodline is somehow related to a noble family, would that mean greater power, or does that have no effect?
It would mean greater power as the nobles are simply all pure bloods.

is he even a shinigami (before answering that, i know he is. but it seems he isn't even that exactly... shinigami, by nature, are 'death gods' and in spiritual in nature... sure, he can escape gigai, but is that temporary death? [death in bleach being very vague]. it seems kinda gray to me. seems he is truly just a 'representative' as long as he is still living...)?
Shinigami, like Vizards, are defined by the existence of powers. Since Ichigo possesses the powers of a shinigami, Ichigo is a shinigami.

ichigo's bankai: unusual to say the least, at least in SHINIGAMI terms... notice in full release, it is almost safe to say that he basically fuses with zangetsu? what other creatures in bleach uni fuse with their zanpakutos (hint: at least one type that was in spoilers in earlier post... maybe others?).... this makes me think he is closer to a true hybrid, at least in potential. notice only incomplete hybrids fuse at this point (i'm uncertain as to what a release in vizard form is? do they fuse, or just have a regular bankai while also having the boost from the inner hollow and the ability to use certain hollow powers.
Future manga spoiler: Since the Hollow is merged with Zangetsu, and thus uses his powers, and Ichigo is merged with the Hollow inside him, there are some parts of Zangetsu that show on Ichigo.
That, or Ichigo's bankai is just unique in that that the "huge" part in it is not something palpable, but rather, and effect.

when was he vizardized: some say when he was shinigamizized(?) ie, when he "regained" his powers (read:both at the same time) or either that he was always a shinigami and that he was forced/tricked/coerced/experimented on/accidentally circumstantiated into vizardness via kisuke's methods... all that to say this:
honest question; when was the 'orb' (name escapes me) that aizen obtained placed in rukia? it escapes me. the reason is, if it was before her first meeting with ichigo, then whether or not you considered him shini at that time, I can't but help to wonder if the whole vizard thing was set in motion when she piered him (sounds rather sexual...). at least, maybe a seed was planted? this could all be wrong assuming it was hidden in her sometime afterward (which is probably the case). it would at least, to some extint to me, explain the unusual sequence/circumstances of transformation when ichigo got his hollow/shini powers back. also, this being anime, who's to say that having another shinigami force their powers onto either another shini or shini potential (ichigo or anyone else for that matter) wouldn't have some jolting effect or potential to taint his soul, thus also going back to the hollow seed being planted. it was a rather unorhodox method of transfering powers, and of course rukia didn't know (or rather, did she... guy that looked like ichi back in the day in SS...?) of his lineage when the power transfer took place. either way, it synergized his jump into shinigaminess...
Too much spoilers to put in one place... but either way, according to what Aizen said, it appears that the Hougyoku was plaved in Rukia before she even became a Shinigami. However, even if the orb was used on Ichigo, he is still a Vizard by definition: a shinigami who achieved Hollow powers, through whatever means.
some of this may be incorrect, or at least answered in the manga. most is off the top of my head, and i didn't reference much of anything. it's all either in this thread or wiki or the anime itself tho...

Let's just say that he has layers upon layers of UNUSUAL circumstances, at least relative to the bleach universe, surrounding him... so what is the deal with just sitting on the fence until this is resolved, if ever? I think, at this point, who knows what EXACTLY he is?
I know what he is, exactly: a VIZARD.

[xmontx]

i would think ichigo is a mixture of both kinds. i remember one time where he was trying to save rukia from being transferred back to soul society when the 6th capt and renji came into the real world. then i remember the capt saying he lost his shimi powers b/c the say he was defeated or something to that...so i'm guessing that time he lost his powers...then urahara came along and turned ichigo into a hollow? and he broke his mask to get back his shimi powers that the capt removed from ichigo? this is based on what i saw on anime...so i may have interpreted it differently

[sniperz]

it proofs theres one chance in becoming a hollow or vizard.

and since ichigo is on the righteous places,he overcomes the vizard transformation with the help of uruhara. uruhara would nv notice byakukya coming too coz he might be doing experiment which we never knows.and he wouldnt want to disturb the gotei 13 captain using force.so after ichigo got whacked by byakukya, uruhara helped ichigo overcome that power level.

so now ichigo is par with byakukya or even higher ! +D

tat proofs vizard + shinigami > byakukya . but byakukya is still strong but he took 1000 years for those bankai stuffs. so it means he will get rusty when fighting ichigo.


ichigo can surpass wat the manga chapter's enemies are "arrancar" . esp the weakest of the 10 espada. ichigo is near par with few of them. but still he needs uber training if he wants to fight AIZEN.


aizen is very very very strong in reaitsu and confusion attacks. ;( tats ichigo's target.

[Undying]

i would think ichigo is a mixture of both kinds. i remember one time where he was trying to save rukia from being transferred back to soul society when the 6th capt and renji came into the real world. then i remember the capt saying he lost his shimi powers b/c the say he was defeated or something to that...so i'm guessing that time he lost his powers...then urahara came along and turned ichigo into a hollow? and he broke his mask to get back his shimi powers that the capt removed from ichigo? this is based on what i saw on anime...so i may have interpreted it differently
Byakuya thought that Ichigol lost his powers. However, Ichigo only lost Rukia's powers, not his own, as stated by Zangetsu a few episodes later.

[sniperz]

yea ichigo is a shinigami afterall. byakukya is juz a sucky captain not knowing tat too. rofl.~

[bluec5834/IchixMatsuxHime]

From what I can see, Arrancars and Vaizards are basically the same thing, failed attempts at becoming a higher spirt being that has the strengths of hollow and shinigami and no weaknesses. The only difference between them is thier orginal state - hollow or shinigami. In theory, there would be no difference between a perfected Arrancar or Vaizard, but since there is no perfected of eithier, they hold different definitions. I do not think Ichigo is failed attempt, but unfortunatley has to evolve into his final state. To me it seems that Ichigo is Urahara's pet project that is endorsed by his dad (which is way to informed). Urahara probabley had Ichigo planed out either before he left soul society or immediatley after. I think Ichigo's difference will be that he will merge Ichigo, Hollow Ichigo, and Zangetsu into one sound mind and body. Time will tell, but I think he fall under a different definition that we have not been made aware of yet. Well actually vaizards are shinigami who i am not saying this us correct but... had waited to long to become soul reapers in spirit like ichigo [not sure] this applies to all of them but but they are basically three beings zanpaktou hollow and shinigami the shinigami being the one in control in a good situation an arrancar is a hollow who gets shinigami power but is only hollow and zanpaktou no shinigami piece like the vaizards

[themicahman]

ichigo is obviously as shown on the tv show is a viazard theres all the evidence for it. but i agree with what somoene else said that ichigo may kindve merge wit the hollow and learn to control its powers for himself. instead of the hollow taking over.

[davidn15]

i think ichigo's a vaizard. he's not as strong as the other vaizards but with some more training he'd would have a really good fight

[themicahman]

i know i am labeled a leacher etc. (not true) its just because havnt been on for a month or so lol. but i know everything about the anime portion. and from my perspective its just a coincidence ichigo hasnt contacted zangetsu or talked with him. if you have a named zangpakuto ur w/e you can talk with it etc. wether a viz or not. HOPE I HEPLED!:redbiggri

[themicahman]

i know i am labeled a leacher etc. (not true) its just because havnt been on for a month or so lol. but i know everything about the anime portion. and from my perspective its just a coincidence ichigo hasnt contacted zangetsu or talked with him. if you have a named zangpakuto ur w/e you can talk with it etc. wether a viz or not. HOPE I HEPLED!:redbiggri
???????????????? the post i said this to is gone now lol w/e hope this helped somoene lol.

[bluec5834/IchixMatsuxHime]

well since we all know bleach is all our lives here basically Ichigo is a vaizard they say that hirako says they are kin and therefore are the same ichigo might not be a special case he could just be a little different

[Seta]

Ichigo is definitely a Vaizard :)

[reiko2]

I just thought that since Ichigo is now Shinigami ... he is a Vaizard too and he has Zangetzu , wow .. hes too strong 0__o

[Seta]

he's a Shinigami Substitute, besides as posted previously in this topic, Vaizards are Shinigami's who have obtained Hollow powers.. just as Hollows who have removed their masks to obtain Shinigami powers are Arrancars.

[paulsan2112]

I guess i'm just still not convinced. too many questions remain unanswered, at least in the anime, for me.

as for the difference between the anime and manga; whatever. I go by the anime exclusively, and that is why i post in this forum, not the manga one.

I don't really see how the manga could possibly supercede what happens in the anime, if it is just that; what happened in the anime. How does that mean the manga is MORE correct? Are you suggesting the animators made a mistake? Again, how do you know it's not a better way of SHOWING what happens? How do you know the changes, if any, are not for the better?

I would guess some people seem biased and subjective, especially when I doubt anyone here, regardless of being a manga reader or not, really knows all the answers.



Feel free to discuss and argure why or what; it just seems a little premature to me at this point. If the anime comes outright and says: this is THAT explicitly, then I will agree at that point.

I also, would like to think of the anime as more factual (oh snap, he said it), barring scenes that might have been excluded from the manga. There is no guessing as to what happens EXACTLY, in what manner, and in what time frame, as in between frames in the manga. Call it ignorance is bliss. Clearly, the manga is closer to a book which would grant the reader liscense to interpret differently. Granted, an illustrated novel (ie, manga) would allow for less interpretation than a book, but still more than a full-time animated storyline. There has to be variables in the manga, as you can just read from this thread alone.

I KNOW the anime originated from the manga. But, it is it's own entity now. If we are talking anime, it (the anime, not the manga) is always correct. IF the question was brought up "what is ichigo exactly" in the MANGA forum, I'm sure there could very well be a different answer. That is moot, as this was brought up in the anime section. It should be answered using anime precidents. Never, in the anime section, should it be said the anime is wrong. That is illogical on every level.

What I'm saying is; it's easy to discredit someone, but unless very explicitly proven otherwise, it's open for interpretation (or what would there be to discuss, or what purpose for forums, to discuss FACTS alone?). Now, you could say so-and-so is VERY LIKELY/UNLIKELY, but that still makes it a possibility, and in a ficitonal anime of all things, even the impossible is possible.







Not picking a fight. This is a gentlemen's discussion:

"Being a "pure blood" (father shinigami - stated by Grand Fisher) means that the soul will have an easier time becoming a shinigami. In Ichigo's case, it meant that his shinigami powers began developing from the say he was born. "

Doesn't really answer my questions regarding bloodline. What I was pointing out is that 'pure' blood seems awfully close to 'full' blood which would mean that his mother was shini as well, at least if that's how it was supposed to be interpreted.

"Not really. The appearance of the attack in the anime is an added thing. It was a regular slash, and that's that."

How can you say that so matter-of-factly? Maybe that's how the creator wanted the manga readers to see it (refer to the beginning of this post). There are plenty of slashes in this anime alone that are less curved and less resembling of getsuga attacks. IF it is an added thing, I for one appreciate it being visually elaborated on, and think it's cool that father and son have visually similar attacks... at least at this point.

"It would mean greater power as the nobles are simply all pure bloods."

This I don't disagree with per se, just wondering where you got that from, or is it conjecture. There are so many powerful personalities, that they all can't belong to one of 4 bloodlines. Thus, that would mean the majority of POWERFUL personalities, DON'T belong to noble clans. So, speaking in terms of ratio, it doesn't seem at least to be impressive or important. More of a dignitary thing. If there is a comment or a line however that says one way or another, I really would like to know. And, I don't just mean allusions to noble clans; I mean where it's specified they are more powerful. (could be! not saying it doesn't exist!)

"Shinigami, like Vizards, are defined by the existence of powers. Since Ichigo possesses the powers of a shinigami, Ichigo is a shinigami."

Where is it defined, the definition of shinigami? It doesn't seem so black and white to me. Shinigami simply means 'death god' and whether it is argued they are 'deathlike' figures or simply an entity that is the harbinger of death, they are tradionally EITHER DEAD OR UNDEAD, but very much not living. How many shinigami in this anime, or manga for that matter, don't come from soul society? That is ichigo only. Think about it: his conception was from either two gigai (in the case of a shini mother) or one gigai and one 'regular' human. (could his figure get any more Christlike?). Does that make him half-dead? Are gigai technically alive? (we know they are enough to do natural functions, like child conception, at least). Sure, he is shini when he goes into spirit form... but he has POWERS when in regular mode (sensitivity to souls = power). Special case.

"Future manga spoiler:
Spoiler: manga spoiler regarding the Hollow:"

Since it is in spoilers, I won't quote the following. However, the questions I asked in that paragraph were rhetorical. I was pointing out that: vaizard were once shinigami. They have/had regular shini bankai. They then got vaizardized. Vaizards and arrencar are both hybrids. Hybrids (at least arrencar, apparenly, going on what I have read) are unique in that they FUSE with their zanpaketos. Since the order for ichigo goes straight to the fusion (bankai, at least in appearence), that skips over the entire regular, over the top bankai all the other vaizards had. Let's put it this way. If ichigo was a shini from SS, he would eventually have a bankai like the rest. Over the top. To be arbitrary, say laser beams shoot out of every direction when he bankais (his inner animal is a penquin with laser guns.... helllllloooooo fight club.) THEN, he goes bad and decides to vaizardize. NOW his bankai in viz form is more of a morph of him in a penguin suit shooting laser beams.

Since Ichigo either A) went strait to a more hybridized bankai, as it would have been all along. He always would have a viz type bankai (A SPECIAL CASE because even if he never vizordized, he has an unusual bankai... all other viz had regular ones before vizification) or B) was vizardized after training with kisuke and everyone, us and ichigo himself, missed what his 'regular' bankai (laser beams) would have been (since his current one is more of a viz [or at least hybrid] bankai) and all we see is viz bankai (penguin suit with laser guns) (ANOTHER SPECIAL CASE since he never got a chance to develope a regular bankai). Ichigo goes straight to fusion-type bankai just like he goes straight to shikai release by simply unsheathing his sword. A third possibility could be that all vizards originally have viz-type bankais, even before vizification, but are more predisposed to wanting to become vizards, but that is more of a phychology-driven answer.

"Too much spoilers to put in one place... but either way, according to what Aizen said, it appears that the Hougyoku was plaved in Rukia before she even became a Shinigami. However, even if the orb was used on Ichigo, he is still a Vizard by definition: a shinigami who achieved Hollow powers, through whatever means."

Thank you for answering when hougyoku was placed in rukia, I didn't remember that. However, if it was before she became shinigami, then I could see even more the possibility of it AFFECTING (er, not really USING it because that would mean she would have concious thought that's what she was doing to him) him, twisting him in some way, when she transfered power... since it was there when she first met ichigo, regardless of his latent shinigami powers. While I don't know HOW the other vizards came to be (was the orb used... was it chain removal-training whatever... are they naturally occuring in any way... was kisuke involved with any [including himself?!]), I doubt it was exactly as ichi was.
Take a) unusual gray area shinigami with maybe gigai parents or a halfling, b) unusual power transfered forcefully (not common if ever even happening), c) unusual power transfered by a shini that JUST SO HAPPENS to silently be a vessel for the hougyoku, d) unusual (unusual for shinigami, or unusual for vizards even?) order of transformation when training with kisuke, e) unusual shikai and bankai at any point, f) unusually large amount of reatsu, and throw that all together in a pot. All those points are fact, and all are unusual. That is why I think it is reasonable to say he is either an unusual vizard, something greater than vizards could hope for, or something VERY similar to vizards, just not quite one given all the unusual circumstances. This of course does NOT rule out that he IS a vizard. In fact, it's a stronger case that he IS a vizard, or something like it. It does, however, leave chance or probability that something else is going on...

RARITY:

regular person<shini<shini captain level<hybrids such as vizards and arrencars<whatever ichigo is.


In terms of cars:

skylines (spirits such as shini) are rare. GTS and GT-ST's are standard skylines (shini), while GTT's are rarer and more powerful (vizards). But GT-Rs, still being a skyline and very similar in appearence and many other aspects, are ENTIRELY different vehicles altogether (ichigo). They drive different*, they handle different, their power potential is different, and they have different internals, and roll off a different part of the assembly line.



I just don't think people should say they KNOW EXACTLY when there are too many loopholes, and plot holes altogether. It isn't stated fact anywhere one way or another (fyi, one character, who may even be mistaken [in terms of mistaken internally in the anime for plot purposes/twists] for all you know, that states that ichigo is like 'us' or like 'them' doens't mean he is one of them (by nature, not organization), or even that he is like them at all).

Conjecture, all of opinions, and assumptions, even if they are good ones.























* trust me.

[Toukestu Zero]

on the main subject...ichigo's a human,who became a shimigami represntitive,who became a vaizard

[h0f5]

problem is, we arent discussing about the bleach anime, were discussing about bleach as a whole. The only reason there is an anime forum is so you guys who only watch the anime dont get spoiled. HOWEVER, the anime is a adaptation from the manga, which obviously means that the manga is more accurate. The anime not only interprets the manga, it also adds, to its own discretion, extra scenes. I dont remember much, but this includes the lengthening off the hitsugaya vs gin fight considerably, giving hitsugaya an extra hit against aizen and stuff like that. In simpler words : the anime forum, is just a manga forum that dosent go into manga events and stops at the anime events. So calling fillers shit and the anime inaccurate is in every way accurate.

Its not THAT impossible for a normal shinigami to become vaizards and get kicked out of soul society. Even in hueco mundo, arrancar are naturally ocurring, albeit weaker than hogyouku ones.

[paulsan2112]

problem is, we arent discussing about the bleach anime, were discussing about bleach as a whole. The only reason there is an anime forum is so you guys who only watch the anime dont get spoiled. HOWEVER, the anime is a adaptation from the manga, which obviously means that the manga is more accurate. The anime not only interprets the manga, it also adds, to its own discretion, extra scenes. I dont remember much, but this includes the lengthening off the hitsugaya vs gin fight considerably, giving hitsugaya an extra hit against aizen and stuff like that. In simpler words : the anime forum, is just a manga forum that dosent go into manga events and stops at the anime events. So calling fillers shit and the anime inaccurate is in every way accurate.

Its not THAT impossible for a normal shinigami to become vaizards and get kicked out of soul society. Even in hueco mundo, arrancar are naturally ocurring, albeit weaker than hogyouku ones.

Orly? Then why isn't this thread, or why wasn't it started, in the manga forum?
Bleach would not have near as much popularity, if it weren't for the anime. As much as that may seem to supprise you (I know it doesn't), I bet that's why some people cling to the manga so much, so they appear to know more, or appear to have been around longer, or whatever.
How gracious of the manga readers to bestow an anime forum to us lowly anime-watchers :whatevah: ... how condescending!
How many ways must it be put? The anime can never be incorrect, if it is in anime terms you are speaking of. That means, the anime and the manga are two separate things, ESPECIALLY if the anime doens't follow the manga.
Maybe your post would carry much more weight if this thread were started in the MANGA, or even GENERAL bleach forums, but it wasn't.

Again, I would like to say, maybe this is the telling, in anime form, that gets certain messages across better. Maybe, he (TK) wanted to tweak certain things. Afterthoughts, that he wanted displayed more specific or slightly changed, or things he wanted to eleborate on for a BETTER, MORE ACCURATE (relative to his vision of bleach, the only correct version, it being his idea and all...) retelling. I'm sure TK has either tite (<-punny) control, or is in the least someone that has to get the go-ahead from about any details. Or are all manga readers so patronizing that they think they know everything, including TK's heart on the matter? Or maybe he just said, "do whatever you want, as long as it sells" to the anime writers and illustrators. Either, way, I like the anime. Tell me any of this couldn't easily be a possibility, other than opinions on the matter. I wonder what Tite Kubo himself would say to posts such as this.

It's like any other novel to movie, or comic book to movie adaptation:
Of course it never really seems to follow it exactly. That doesn't make it wrong. Where is it written in stone that any adaptation has to follow 100% or it is wrong? "Wrong" being a relative term anyways, isn't really the best way to put it. "Not faithful to the manga" would be better. But, to say 'wrong' simply implies the manga is RIGHT, and I don't see that disclaimer anywhere on the anime, or are they just not translating that /sarcasm/? Once it takes on a different medium, that medium will have some fans exclusive to medium type. Of course there will be some bleed-over, but more often than not, just 'fans' of the written medium that want to feel like they have been around the block longer than the newcomers, or are more 'hardcore' fans, or are a part of some underground that they wanted to keep that way. To me, the just come across as whiny. Sometimes, it ruins the fun. We are here for fun, right?





One thing I'm noticing, being new to these forums, but not a newbie to forums in general, is the superior attitude that seeps from many of the manga readers. I would say, unless everyone grovels to your knowledge base and posts, that many of you have a very UNWELCOMING attitude to discussion.

[Undying]

Regarding the difference between the anime and manag:

Anime is an adaption of the manga. Therefore, it can in no way supercede what is stated in the manga.

Yes, the animators do make mistakes, and yes, they alter the material in ways that make the anime wrong. If you check the first chapter of Bleach, you will see many differences between it and the first episode.

As a matter of fact, Ichigo's entire reasoning why to save Rukia is, although stated the same way in the anime and manga, makes it appear as though Ichigo likes Rukia in the anime, while in the manga, it is rather clear that his main reason is not love.

Also, scene alterations, added dialogues, scene order changes. All these are changes from the original material.

Therefore, in any place that there is an argument between the anime and the manga, the manga is correct.

Second reason is that the manga is the original thing, the original idea and the original maker. Therefore, the anime, since it's not made by the same man, cannot be as accurate.

Therefore, do not attemp to argue with the manga. It is the only correct part of Bleach.

[Feign]

One thing I'm noticing, being new to these forums, but not a newbie to forums in general, is the superior attitude that seeps from many of the manga readers. I would say, unless everyone grovels to your knowledge base and posts, that many of you have a very UNWELCOMING attitude to discussion.Yes, but by hanging out with the ones seeping attitude, perhaps we'll gain some of our own and start developing our innate elitest powers. (this was a joke, this was only a joke)

Really, my opinion is that Ichigo is a Vaizard on technicality alone. As of the anime, he hasn't joined with the vaisards nor does he support whatever agenda they have.

From what I understand, the vaisards were Shingami for a Very Long Time before their lust for power drove them to even try to get a mask. On top of that, it seems that there is a significant amount of power or sacrifice they must gain to get a mask once they ever begin along the path. Of course, this is just a feeling I get from little details in the show.

Basicly, since Ichigo is already at that level of power within his own human lifetime. So he still has a long life, and even longer afterlife ahead of him to develop those powers and become the strongest Vaisard ever... Providing he doesn't get destroyed at the end of the series or something...

[Undying]

One thing I'm noticing, being new to these forums, but not a newbie to forums in general, is the superior attitude that seeps from many of the manga readers. I would say, unless everyone grovels to your knowledge base and posts, that many of you have a very UNWELCOMING attitude to discussion.

By any chance refering to me?

And yes, manga readers happen to know more than you. You know more, you act like you know more. That's just natural.

[paulsan2112]

Opinions! Biased at that...

Regarding the difference between the anime and manag:

Anime is an adaption of the manga. Therefore, it can in no way supercede what is stated in the manga.

Yes, the animators do make mistakes, and yes, they alter the material in ways that make the anime wrong. If you check the first chapter of Bleach, you will see many differences between it and the first episode.

As a matter of fact, Ichigo's entire reasoning why to save Rukia is, although stated the same way in the anime and manga, makes it appear as though Ichigo likes Rukia in the anime, while in the manga, it is rather clear that his main reason is not love.

Also, scene alterations, added dialogues, scene order changes. All these are changes from the original material.

Therefore, in any place that there is an argument between the anime and the manga, the manga is correct.

Second reason is that the manga is the original thing, the original idea and the original maker. Therefore, the anime, since it's not made by the same man, cannot be as accurate.

Therefore, do not attemp to argue with the manga. It is the only correct part of Bleach.



...



"Anime is an adaption of the manga. Therefore, it can in no way supercede what is stated in the manga."

It isn't superceding if you are referring to what is presented in the anime, and from anime standpoints/precidents only. Again, how is one medium more correct? Never was it argued that the anime is more 'correct'. It was stated, however, it could be another view/twist/refinement closer to what TK might have originally had in mind. As long as TK is listed as a credit, and he is the creator that I ASSUME holds artistic liscencing, I am going to assume as well that he knows everything that is broadcast, and OK'd it.

"Yes, the animators do make mistakes, and yes, they alter the material in ways that make the anime wrong. If you check the first chapter of Bleach, you will see many differences between it and the first episode."

Again, why is it a 'mistake' if it is different? About every idea presented in your post was already commented on in my previous post. Most importantly, what I think is the misuse of words such as 'wrong' 'incorrect' and 'mistake'. That's all relative opinion, mon ami, the only person that I would say knows indefinately is TK. I have already alikened the anime-manga dynamic to an songwriter that sings with slightly different lyrics or notes, that he/she feels to be better, in a later display of the work. It happens all the time. Especially live.

"If you check the first chapter of Bleach, you will see many differences between it and the first episode.

As a matter of fact, Ichigo's entire reasoning why to save Rukia is, although stated the same way in the anime and manga, makes it appear as though Ichigo likes Rukia in the anime, while in the manga, it is rather clear that his main reason is not love.

Also, scene alterations, added dialogues, scene order changes. All these are changes from the original material."

I'm not sure why you point any of this out, since it was never argued to the contrary. Rather, I have been in agreement, that from what I understand of the manga, that the anime differs at times... this has been my understanding and view all along. I know they differ, that idea is integral to the point that I have been TRYING to make.

"Therefore, in any place that there is an argument between the anime and the manga, the manga is correct."

No. The manga originated first, that is all. In BLEACH ANIME POVS, the manga is valueless. In a general bleach arguement, or in one that deals with MANGA POVS, that might hold true. Again, the term would be that the anime is UNFAITHFUL, not INCORRECT, in regards to the manga, if there was any discrepancy discussed.

"Second reason is that the manga is the original thing, the original idea and the original maker. Therefore, the anime, since it's not made by the same man, cannot be as accurate."

Maybe I am misunderstanding that TK is listed on the credits. If I am, or if anyone knows undoubtably that he has nothing to do with the anime, then I do appologize in advance. Even if it were a different storyteller, it then becomes his version, and since we are still the audience, that means we can't say his version is incorrect. Only then, that it differs from TK's version.
from Wiki (yes, I know wiki isn't the end-all...):
"Bleach ( ブリーチ, Burīchi?, romanized as BLEACH in Japan) is a manga and anime series by Tite Kubo, mangaka of Zombie Powder."


"Therefore, do not attemp to argue with the manga. It is the only correct part of Bleach."

Again, correct to who? Certainly not the anime-only followers?!
















All this over the anime showing the isshin attack resembling getsuga more than the manga?

[Undying]

KT has absolutely nothing to do with the Bleach anime. The only person biased here is you, my friend. The anime is not another view of the manga, it is an adaption by compltely different people who alter and change things compltely unrelated to KT.


No. The manga originated first, that is all. In BLEACH ANIME POVS, the manga is valueless. In a general bleach arguement, or in one that deals with MANGA POVS, that might hold true. Again, the term would be that the anime is UNFAITHFUL, not INCORRECT, in regards to the manga, if there was any discrepancy discussed.
That is called being biased. The anime is incorrect either way, mon ami, because it's an adaption.

Again, correct to who? Certainly not the anime-only followers?!
Moreso to anime only watchers, because you don't know what is the correct version.
All this over the anime showing the isshin attack resembling getsuga more than the manga?
I don't even care about that =\. Not only that, but tbh I can't see why are you putting so much omprtancy to this... it's just another scene alteration.

Wikiepdia is not a trustworthy source. Unless the information there is confirmed by the manga or other trustworthy sources, whatever brought there is BS.

Also, your inability to accept the fact that whatever you state may be wrong simply because it is stated so in the original work makes me laugh :).

Oh and also, of course KT would be stated in the credits, it's an adaption from his work.

[paulsan2112]

Yawn. OK, now that the thread is completely jacked...

KT has absolutely nothing to do with the Bleach anime. The only person biased here is you, my friend. The anime is not another view of the manga, it is an adaption by compltely different people who alter and change things compltely unrelated to KT.


That is called being biased. The anime is incorrect either way, mon ami, because it's an adaption.


Moreso to anime only watchers, because you don't know what is the correct version.

I don't even care about that =\. Not only that, but tbh I can't see why are you putting so much omprtancy to this... it's just another scene alteration.

Wikiepdia is not a trustworthy source. Unless the information there is confirmed by the manga or other trustworthy sources, whatever brought there is BS.

Also, your inability to accept the fact that whatever you state may be wrong simply because it is stated so in the original work makes me laugh :).

Oh and also, of course KT would be stated in the credits, it's an adaption from his work.



...



"KT has absolutely nothing to do with the Bleach anime."
Source? Really, not being a dick, I wanna know.

"The only person biased here is you, my friend."
Yes, I am biased, in that I don't read the manga. You are biased in that you like the manga so much, I think your feelings on the matter are skewed towards it, and that's ok, as long as others can have their views without being told they are wrong.

"The anime is not another view of the manga, it is an adaption by compltely different people who alter and change things compltely unrelated to KT."
If that is true (once again, sources?), then so be it. Then it really just comes down to which version you prefer. Understanding that there are two versions then, does not make one more correct than the other. But, I highly doubt (assumption on my part!) that KT has nothing furher to do with the anime. I could easily be wrong.

"That is called being biased. The anime is incorrect either way, mon ami, because it's an adaption."
adaptation:
noun 1. the act of adapting.
2. the state of being adapted; adjustment.
3. something produced by adapting: an adaptation of a play for television.
Synonyms: adjustment, adoption, alteration, conversion, modification, refitting, remodeling, reworking, shift, transformation, variation... these all point to the fact that things will change, if only so slightly. Of course it will be different. Different is not wrong.
Once it is an adaptation, in different medium, it takes on its own personality.
Are you saying that an adaptation is, by nature, wrong? ("The anime is incorrect either way... because it's an adaption") That really doesn't make sense. Again, 'wrong'... ah, nm, I'm at repeating myself....

"Moreso to anime only watchers, because you don't know what is the correct version."
You really don't get it do you? In terms of ANIME only, we know the ONLY correct version! You see? Even if it is a different author/source, which I still don't think it is.

"I don't even care about that =\. Not only that, but tbh I can't see why are you putting so much omprtancy to this... it's just another scene alteration."
Well, then why argue it? It didn't seem like a coincidence to me. I think it was there for a reason, regardless if it was added after the fact. I only bring it up, because it was really the only thing I talked about that was different in the anime and manga, which I wouldn't even have known if you didn't bring up (since I obviously don't read the manga).

"Wikiepdia is not a trustworthy source. Unless the information there is confirmed by the manga or other trustworthy sources, whatever brought there is BS."
My quote when citing wiki:
"...from Wiki (yes, I know wiki isn't the end-all...):"
I was just stating that it still says he has something to do with the anime, which is more than has been shown to me that he hasn't. I would say wiki is more trustworthy than a forum such as this, especially when there is a lack of citations. Also, for all I know (or you know), the authors that have worked on that entry are/were manga fans. There is certainly A LOT of info from the manga on wiki, so I'm sure someone would have corrected that by now. Manga is not an end-all either. We aren't talking about the bible, or history books, or real-life news. We are talking about a fictional anime/manga, so all sources are included. Usually, differences are pointed out in wiki, albeit usually larger discrepancies. If you authored it, it would be OK to quote, but not whoever else?

"Also, your inability to accept the fact that whatever you state may be wrong simply because it is stated so in the original work makes me laugh :)."
....?.... what original work are we talking about? Your inability to execute a rational arguement, at times, makes ME laugh, :). Anyways, I have stated time and again, that I don't know all the answers, state my own opinions/conjecture/assumptions, have asked questions (showing my lack of knowledge wherever), and have explicitly said: I may be wrong time and again. So, no, I accept making mistakes and being wrong from time to time as happening. I am the one sitting on the proverbial fence here, in a lot of respects. It's hard to be wrong when you point out you don't know and don't take any side other than the side that I don't know. All I ever wanted was a quote, page scan, article, or something other than opinion to iron out any gray areas I might have...

"Oh and also, of course KT would be stated in the credits, it's an adaption from his work."
Yes, yes. Adaption/adaptation... everyone loves that word. I know what it is, you know what it is; what is being argued here is not what the anime is. I understand original authors must be stated in the credits. What that does not rule in or out, is his function with the anime. I say he could still be active with it, just out of assumption. What you apparently are saying is his only role was to write the manga. I'm sure there's evidence one way or another, and if you know of any, please be kind enough to share. Again whether TK or some random guy or a group or writers, or a mix of any of those are what is pumping out the bleach animes, I like them. I prefer them. And they are correct to the anime, even if unfaithful to the manga.



This is the anime forum, is it not?







This disagreement is unnecessary and exhausting at this point. Neither side really will yield (although I will if someone can cite something of value other than taking their word for it).

[Feign]

By any chance refering to me?
And yes, manga readers happen to know more than you. You know more, you act like you know more. That's just natural.
While I agree with you in this arguement, I feel the need to point out that you are sounding like a pretentious jerk.

HOWEVER, that's off topic, so I'll continue with something relavent.
The manga is the absolute authority from which all facts on the Bleach world are derived. Also, when one makes any assumption on something happening in the story, the manga overrides anything that the anime says.

However, in the anime, things in the anime are correct, but only when pertaining to the anime... Oh, hey, funny thing, we're in the "Bleach Anime" section of the message board.

Granted, i'm rather new here, so who knows, the sky may be yellow and that "Bleach Anime" may actually say "Bleach World". :cool:

[paulsan2112]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not going to be the catalyst of this...

And, I would agree that bleach anime applies to bleach anime.

Maybe some people could be nicer, and welcoming. Of course, you could tell them they could be nicer in a nicer way .... er? Nicer.

Feign, undying was asking me.
Undying, that post was in response to nOf5. But I meant it for any manga reader that acts holier-than-thou. Since it wasn't in response to you, I guess you either have a guilty concience or has this been brought up before. If that's how you act, then I meant you. I have nothing against nOf5 or Undying, but I think you two and some others come across as abrasive and/or condescending at times. Maybe you feel that's aloted to you, being a mod and manga reader. I think it's uncalled for. I'm sure you both know plenty more, at least in as far as what WILL happen, and any discrepancies. How you chose to show and apply your knowledge is a personal decision, however.



And, I like arguing for the sake of arguing. But sometimes, enough is enough.

[Feign]

Maybe some people could be nicer, and welcoming. Of course, you could tell them they could be nicer in a nicer way .... er? Nicer.
True, I suppose I was a bit... hyperbolic there.

Perhaps I should edit to take out the emphasis...

I'm not going to make it nice though, I really don't think nice is an appropriate responce. Call me a forum Hollow if you will, that's just my opinion.

[Undying]

While I agree with you in this arguement, I feel the need to point out that you are sounding like a pretentious jerk.
And I have every intention of continuing being one ^-^.

And no, the anime forum existst because not eveyrone reads Bleach manga, and the anime watchers need a place to talk. However, when it cmes to discussions, manga pwns anime :lol

Yeah, well, you can't really say that the adaption is correct when comapring to the original, right? Let's give an example, what if someone used the LOTR movies to discuss LOTR books. Would you take him seriously if he stated that he was correct because the movies are "another look on the books"? Of course not...

So I don't take you seriously =O.

Oh and yeah, once you get to know me, you'll be shocked to discover I'm a nice guy. King of spammers FTFW.

We had this topic slip way past the off topic now... any need to continue having it here or may I close it, oh high and mighty members? XD

[Pie <3]

Oh and yeah, once you get to know me, you'll be shocked to discover I'm a nice guy. King of spammers FTFW.


Liar liar pants on fire.:p


manga pwns anime


Psh , anime > Manga.


Offtopic : So did I understand all of this right?

Ichigo is half gangster , right?

[Undying]

@Pie - spamming is a no no. Only the King of Spammer (aka: me-sama) is allowed to spam. XD.

And don't get me wrong, I was not trying to continue this debate, it is sort of useless since I wpned you all already. Manga pwns anime =). I was merely brining an example for possible future references.

[paulsan2112]

And I have every intention of continuing being one ^-^.

And no, the anime forum existst because not eveyrone reads Bleach manga, and the anime watchers need a place to talk. However, when it cmes to discussions, manga pwns anime :lol

Yeah, well, you can't really say that the adaption is correct when comapring to the original, right? Let's give an example, what if someone used the LOTR movies to discuss LOTR books. Would you take him seriously if he stated that he was correct because the movies are "another look on the books"? Of course not...

So I don't take you seriously =O.

Oh and yeah, once you get to know me, you'll be shocked to discover I'm a nice guy. King of spammers FTFW.

We had this topic slip way past the off topic now... any need to continue having it here or may I close it, oh high and mighty members? XD



fair enough. agrees to disagree and all that.

[Feign]

And no, the anime forum existst because not eveyrone reads Bleach manga, and the anime watchers need a place to talk. However, when it cmes to discussions, manga pwns anime :lol *opens mouth to argue, but is stopped as he is hit with a revelation. He immediately rethinks his approaching statement.*

Wow, I'm enough of a n00b that I just now, right in this very post realise that I'm trying to argue with The Mod... And rule one is that The Mod always wins.

Sooo anyway, this being my first impression and all... Umm...

*bows politely and goes to hide in a corner for a while.*:lol

[uraharakisuke153]

i think he is half viazard did it accur to anyone that mr. hat and clothes did this to ichigo during training

Thats clogs fool.. Sandals. Would he have won any other way..? I think not.

^_^

[theblack_dragon]

clearly you are looking spelling medal so sorry for you. anyways thanks for the correction and yea i got his name now Kisuke Urahara just could npt remember at the time

[Undying]

@Feign: I'm just a regular user with some priviliges, unless there's some violation of the rules I'm just as you are =). Well, I am a veteran of CB (over a year old!), but other than that, I'm not God or anything (as much as I like going all "Mods are Gods" Xp).

At any rate, this thread seemed to have descended into really irrelevant discussion. Any future reason for it to be?

[Feign]

@Feign: I'm just a regular user with some priviliges, unless there's some violation of the rules I'm just as you are =). Well, I am a veteran of CB (over a year old!), but other than that, I'm not God or anything (as much as I like going all "Mods are Gods" Xp).Ah, well, "better to overestimate and be surprised than underestimate and be beaten" I always say... Well some of the time... When it applies... which is very rarely. *cough* Yeah, anyway.

At any rate, this thread seemed to have descended into really irrelevant discussion. Any future reason for it to be?
Can't think of any. The question was answered repeatedly and the tangent got beat like a dead horse.