Urahara's lack of intelligence

[spiderman121]

Someone help me out here.
Urahara gets banned\kicked out of soul society for making an untraceable Gigai around 100 years ago. He keeps hidden with the Hogykou for all that time, while leaving info about it and the secret for removing it from a soul in SS. He then puts it into Rukia and she immediatley gets captured by Aizen, who has 2 methods for extraction, one left by Urahara, who ultimatley gets the Hogykou. He was definatley the only one, at the time, able to defend said Hogykou. From his apperent 'intelligence' why would he let it out of his sight, in the first place. Hard to get all the factors in, but you get the idea. What the heck was he thinking? Was he that stupid, to put it in a Gigai that Aizen would probabley be looking for, or did it as bait for some reason. I am a Urahara fan, sort of, but I can not get over how stupid that was, if he did not intend for it to get taken. Am I missing something.

[ghey b]

lol, im positive that he didnt realize aizen would be looking for her to capture the hogykou... and of course he left the info in SS, it was in the 12th Div. computer database anyway probably... im not sure why he put it in rukias gigai, mistake maybe??? help me out on that one..

[ultimate]

Urahara put in Rukia's gigai since the gigai would eventually suppress Rukia's spiritual powers thus she cannot be tracked and eventually she probably would turn into a normal human which would destroy the hougyoku... This special gigai was made by Urahara and he provided it for her when she realised she had to stay on earth since Ichigo took all of her powers in the first episode so Urahara kinda tricked her into using that gigai since she didn't know about hougyoku...

Aizen found out somehow and manipulated the event of Rukia's execution and she had to be brought back by Byakuya and Renji to be executed which would release the hougyoku from her body but of course she is not executed and Aizen used another method he most likely learnt from Urahara's notes about the hougyoku...

Btw I am not sure what I said is all correct, so if I am wrong, anyone feel free to correct me

[ghey b]

sounds right to me!

[Habanero]

Yep, he just saw a convenient way to destroy the hougyoku in Rukia. There's no way he could have known somebody was actually looking for it.

[spiderman121]

I know what happened...... but.....
Why change his method of hiding the hougyoku? I mean he gave Aizen his only opportunity to find it. I do not remember them saying the hougyoku would be destroyed because of the Gigai she was in. Only that she would be untraceable and that was the 'tattle tale' that Aizen was looking for. Even if that was true, 100 years of a perfect track record, then you throw it into Rukia? He could of thrown the hougyoku into a Gigai (with a mod soul or regular soul if a blank was not sufficient) and left it locked up in his training basement, if the Gigai played some critical role. It probabley would of been destoryed by now (100 years in a Gigai) that way. Assuming he wanted it destroyed. Who cares if he was unaware of Aizen looking for it. He knows of the Arrancars and Vaizards, from the latest episodes. Unless he just recently pickup that info, he would have to be smart enough to realize the hougyoku would be a desired item at the time. It just seems he did something really STUPID, or he WANTED it to get taken. - All the Gigai's I am refering to is the special Urahara's untraceable Gigai.

[DFlux]

First, Hougyoku, I take it, is a living being. From the way it's referred to by its name without "the", I assume this.

Also, when Aizen shows us his merger with it, it clearly puts out tendrils to grasp his fingers.

This means that, as a being, it probably emits its own force and needs to be masked. Now, if these gigais made a person human, that person would eventually die of natural causes. Since Urahara has been gone 100 years, it is logical to suggest that there might have been a host before Rukia, who died and Urahara needed another place to put Hougyoku. Conversely, it is perhaps most ideal to hide it in a soul but there was no possible host until Rukia showed up, and Urahara has been using very powerful methods to hide it until she arrived.

Although, it never specifies when exactly it was placed in Rukia, was it? It probably was and I'm misinterpreting this, but I kind of had the feeling he had placed it in the baby in Rukongai when he left and when she was hurt in Karakura Cho, he saw a unique opportunity to hide it completely by turning her human. Maybe that's just my imagination, though.

It wasn't necessarily stupid. Aizen was just a few steps ahead this time (tends to happen when you can't keep an eye on him from the human world).

[AznPoi]

Everyone makes mistakes.

If he hadn't screwed up then there would be no more Bleach. It would pretty much end or continue with Ichigo running around killing hollows instead of going to SS.

Every anime has to have people do something stupid so that the story can continue.

Naruto = 4th puts 9-tails into Naruto??? WTF???

[daewonder]

i find the title of this topic to be a complete oxymoron.

:D

[spiderman121]

Maybe, I am over analyzing the circumstances, since they never go into details of his previous hiding procedures.
Urahara did leave enough info for someone to find out about the Hougyoku in SS. He left info on how to extract the Hougyoku while in a soul in SS. He made it very available by not ensuring Rukia’s whereabouts or safety. He had to of known that it was a desired item due to his apparent knowledge of the Arrancars and Vaizards. I know it does not make for a story if he did not have a ‘slip’ of common since. I really do not know what I am shooting for, but I almost think he set everything up. Or Aizen is just so smart, that he manipulated Urahara’s actions somehow. Who knows – dumb maneuver, outwitted, ultimate villain, or strategic maneuver for a situation we have not seen the reason for.

[DFlux]

It could very well be that now it's found, he wants Aizen to use completely spend Hougyoku on creating Arrancars. That may sound horrible on the surface level, but maybe he realised that until it is completely spent he cannot destroy it. Of course, he isn't willing to create such dangerous creatures himself, so why not let someone else do the dirty work? That way he could take out Hougyoku and the villain in one fell swoop.

[Undying]

Possibly. Personaly I think that Urahara isn't as all knowing as it seems.

He probably was unaware of Aizen's betrayal until after it occured, so he could not know that his hidden methods were discovered.

Also, why was he so eager to retrieve Rukia? I think that this points to the fact that he was scared that someone might find the Hougyoku (I believe he was already aware of the existanceof apossible betrayal, but I don't believe he was able to discern who it was), so he sent Ichigo and co. there on a seemingly suicidal mission, both to expose the villian and to retrieve the Hougyoku before someone found it.

I do not think he was truly aware that Rukia would be found so easily.

In fact, in the manga, during the Menos incident, Jinta notices a small bug-like mechanism that found Rukia.

So to me, this was mostly happenstance - the accidental arrival of the mechanism that alreted Soul Soeicty, and as a result Aizen discovered where the Hougyoku was.

Also, there's another point. Aizen says, at least in the anime as far as I can recall, that Urahara "hid the Hougyoku inside a child... that child was you, Kuchiki Rukia".

At any rate, the fact that in both the anime and the manga he says "by the time I discovered the Hougyoku's whereabouts, you already went missing in the real world" implies that the Hougyoku was inside Rukia before she got her Gigai.

Urahara probably messed with the events and tried to make sure she remain hidden in the real world via the Gigai, but the Hougyoku was there already.

[h0f5]

technically, if not for aizen's inteference, the central 46 would NOT have sent an order to arrest rukia. In that time, the hougyouku might have already been destroyed. According to normal circumstances, the central 46 would not have done so, that was probably what urahara was banking on.

[Undying]

Actually, of not for Aizen's interference, we wouldn't have Bleach, so let's not start this...

[*kaname*]

It was definitly implanted in Rukia before she got assigned to Karakura Town. Can Hyougyouku be destroyed by "normal" means? I don't think so. Urahara would have done it a long time ago, if he could.
But this untraceable gigai was a real stupid idea. It makes no sense to me. If a shinigami completely disappears, it's even more suspicious, isn't it?

[spiderman121]

If Urahara was aware of Arrancars and Vaizards, he would have to be insane to not realize that the Hougyoku would be sought after. Regardless of any knowledge of Aizen plot, he would of had to of been leary of it being aquired by the wrong people. Let say he just made a few mistakes and was outwitted by Aizen, by not knowing the situation at the time. He apparently watched Ichigo get almost killed and the Hougyoku taken out of his control. He told Ichigo that he thought he would learn more by getting his but kicked than by telling him what he was up against. I do not understand why he did not at least make an attempt to keep the Hougyoku from getting out of his sight at that time. He left all the information to needed for its use in SS, where she was to be taken, and out of any control of Urahara. Plot Hole? Did he just think he was too smart to be owned in the situation.

[Undying]

If Urahara was aware of Arrancars and Vaizards, he would have to be insane to not realize that the Hougyoku would be sought after. Regardless of any knowledge of Aizen plot, he would of had to of been leary of it being aquired by the wrong people. Let say he just made a few mistakes and was outwitted by Aizen, by not knowing the situation at the time. He apparently watched Ichigo get almost killed and the Hougyoku taken out of his control. He told Ichigo that he thought he would learn more by getting his but kicked than by telling him what he was up against. I do not understand why he did not at least make an attempt to keep the Hougyoku from getting out of his sight at that time. He left all the information to needed for its use in SS, where she was to be taken, and out of any control of Urahara. Plot Hole? Did he just think he was too smart to be owned in the situation.
That is most likely because Urahara was not aware of Aizen. He suspected that there were betrayers, probably, but he didn't know who.

So he sent Ichigo to retrieve the Hougyoku along with Rukia because he couldn't do it himself, but refrained from interfering when Byakuya and Renji took Rukia because he was afraid of being exposed or maybe because he knows he can't return to Soul Society and Renji and Byakuya can escape easily enough.

Another possibility is that he wanted to expose Aizen, and so let it go on a bit.

Of course, there is always the possibility that Urahara is working with Aizen.

[gdo01]

If Urahara was aware of Arrancars and Vaizards, he would have to be insane to not realize that the Hougyoku would be sought after. Regardless of any knowledge of Aizen plot, he would of had to of been leary of it being aquired by the wrong people. Let say he just made a few mistakes and was outwitted by Aizen, by not knowing the situation at the time. He apparently watched Ichigo get almost killed and the Hougyoku taken out of his control. He told Ichigo that he thought he would learn more by getting his but kicked than by telling him what he was up against. I do not understand why he did not at least make an attempt to keep the Hougyoku from getting out of his sight at that time. He left all the information to needed for its use in SS, where she was to be taken, and out of any control of Urahara. Plot Hole? Did he just think he was too smart to be owned in the situation.
We don't know the circumstances of how he was forced to leave Soul Society. One thing is for sure, if he could have returned to Soul Society, he would have to tie up all the loose ends he had left. But he apparently can't or else he would have fixed everything and Aizen would have found out nothing.

I think that Urahara had to leave Soul Society very quickly probably under protection by Yoruichi's squad. He would have had no time to hide all his research. In a last ditch effort, he put the Hogyoku in a poor commoner girl who was probably never going to be a shinigami. One day, he would come back to take it once he had figured out how to get rid of it.

Apparently, he never figured out how to destroy it and had to get Rukia to come to him once he figured out she was now a shinigami. She was seemingly under his protection for the short time between her Karukura assignment and the loss of her powers. Seeing Isshin's son getting involved, he did not interfere and saw that this new shinigami could be powerful enough to act as his proxy in Soul Society.

Now comes the stupid part: he gives Rukia an untraceable power-draining gigai. My only explanation for that is that he rigged the gigai so that it would eventually destroy the hogyoku as she became more powerless. Unfortunately, it did not work fast enough. She was found and captured. He did not interfere in the capture because it would put more suspicion on why a former shinigami would want to rescue a normal shinigami girl.

Not knowing about Aizen's conspiracy, he probably expected Ichigo would bring back Rukia to the real world. Then Urahara could take back the hogyoku.

[DFlux]

I wonder if Urahara personally knew Aizen. We don't know how long exactly Aizen was captain (at least 50 years), but we know Urahara left 100 years ago. It would be weird if they were once in the same squad.

But from Aizen's speech on Urahara, it seems they never really communicated. Still, when Shunsui said "another of our heroes is coming" it's obvious he knew something about Urahara, and Urahara probably knew something about goings on in Soul Society. But also, Ukitake doesn't seem like an upstart, and while he surely didn't want Rukia executed the way she was to be, why would he go through the trouble of trying to stop Soukyoku instead of going through the bureacratic process?

Urahara probably suspected one of the captains, but what could he do himself, really? I wouldn't be surprised if he still communicates with the older captains and told them to watch out for suspicious activity. But who would expect Aizen to successfully FAKE his death? That would immediately throw off the suspicion of anyone who doesn't know anything about his shikai.

[ultimate]

I think Aizen knew Urahara or had at least met him a couple of times before, before Urahara was exiled from Soul Society... Aizen knew Urahara's "base of operations" [I think that was how it was described in the anime] and predicted what Urahara was going to do to retrieve the hougyoku and his prediction was correct

Urahara probably knows what is going on in Soul Society one way or another and most likely suspected somebody would try to steal the hougyoku but I doubt he suspected it was Aizen or else he may have changed his plan [eg. use the Kuukaku Cannon to blast Ichigo and co. into Soul Society] unless his plan was the only method to get Ichigo and co. into Soul Society successfully... So I am quite sure Urahara and Aizen knew each other when Urahara was the 12th division captain though I doubt Aizen was in the 12th division, maybe at one point he might have been like how Renji used to be in the 11th division...

[spiderman121]

Is it ever explained or hinted at, who created the first Arrancar or Vaizard? Did they find it naturally, by accident, or expermintation. If it had happened by expermintation, I think Urahara was behind the first Arrancar at least if not the first Vaizord also. I would have to agree that Aizen would know or at least closely follow Urahara's work. I wonder is the Hougyoku was bait and so easily lost control of because it has a destructive side-effect.

[DFlux]

Aizen must be really jealous of Urahara, when you think about it. He accomplished what Aizen could never figure out. Aizen just steals, steals, steals.

But that's what puts Urahara ahead of the game in the end. The creator will always be forward of the copycat.

[Maconi]

Am I the only one that thinks Urahara isn't such a nice guy?

Why did he create Hougyoko in the first place?
Why was he creating untraceable Gigai's?

Also, didn't anyone else find the process in which he unlocked Ichigo's Soul Reaper powers a little, eccentric? He KNEW what he was doing, he created a Vizard. "Look, the mask is forming first. It shows his resistance." (not a direct quote)

Even in one of the latest anime episodes, Ichigo's dad said "It seems that they've contacted him, just like you said they would."

In my opinion, Urahara knew that the only thing that could stand up against Aizen's Arrancar, is a Vizard. Problem is, the Vizards ain't allies with anyone, so they aren't gonna do squat to Aizen.

So he creates Ichigo as a link between the Shinigami and the Vizard, to fight against Aizen.

So the point is, Urahara knew from the very beginning Aizen was going to obtain the Hougyoku, and use it for Arrancar. Urahara probably setup the meeting between Ichigo and Rukia, to expose Ichigo to the Shinigami way, and take advantage of the situation to create his vital link with the Vizard. He probably gave Rukia the Gigai, to keep her stuck in the real world long enough, to get them emotionally attached, and make Ichigo WANT to save her.

Now why Urahara put the Hougyoku in her to begin with, and why he knew Aizen would end up with it, is beyond me, I'll think about that later. But the above, is my speculation on the rest of the situation.

-Mac

[DFlux]

Maconi, he may be a bit of a shifty character, but I think he's a good guy. Soul Society has been breeding creepers for ages, I'll bet (just look at Mayuri and, of course, Aizen, not to mention all the corruption). Like many scientists, he possibly just wanted to see how far he could take the technology. The fact is he was responsible enough to seal the Hougyoku and try to hide it from anyone who would use it for harm, so he wasn't running around trying to create Arrancar and Vaizards.

It's likely that a genius like him (and yes, he is a GENIUS) would have realised it will eventually come to a head. As I say earlier, he may have had spies in Seireitei telling him someone's about to move in on the Hougyoku. What better reason is there to awaken Ichigo's powers and create his inner Hollow? Plus, I doubt he had many human-Shinigami to experiment on, so this might be the culmination of his research, the perfect hybrid.

He has made mistakes, no one is perfect, after all, some of them very morally dubious in their nature. But he wants to protect the world in the end, he does (why would a Shinigami want to become a Vaizard apart from greed? To better save humans, of course), he just has a very roundabout way of doing it. The only thing stopping him from being Mayuri's older twin is his conscience.

And why not Rukia? Assuming this was before he left Soul Society, he had no idea Byakuya would take her in. She was just a nobody, no Shinigami (presumably) would interact with her. Perfect until she suddenly shows up in Karakura Town.

[ultimate]

Am I the only one that thinks Urahara isn't such a nice guy?

Why did he create Hougyoko in the first place?
Why was he creating untraceable Gigai's?

Also, didn't anyone else find the process in which he unlocked Ichigo's Soul Reaper powers a little, eccentric? He KNEW what he was doing, he created a Vizard. "Look, the mask is forming first. It shows his resistance." (not a direct quote)

Urahara is different from Aizen, he created the hougyoku to experiment and further technology [its the same what scientists do in real life] whereas Aizen uses the hougyoku for greed and to fulfill his own desires..

As for the untraceable gigai, I think he created it so he could hide the hougyoku when he found out how dangerous it was but somebody found out about the untraceable gigai [maybe Aizen?] and revealed it to Soul Society and thus he was exiled... Urahara was probably planning to hide the hougyoku in an untraceable gigai all along, it was probably the only method to destroy it without actually using it...

Urahara most likely knew about the Vaizards before being exiled but I don't think he deliberately turned Ichigo into a Vaizard, that method was probably the only way to unlock Ichigo's Shinigami powers at that time...

In my opinion, Urahara knew that the only thing that could stand up against Aizen's Arrancar, is a Vizard. Problem is, the Vizards ain't allies with anyone, so they aren't gonna do squat to Aizen.

That time Aizen most likely didn't have any Arrancars yet and Urahara most likely didn't know that Aizen would be the one to betray Soul Society and Urahara was hoping that Ichigo would rescue Rukia and thus retrieve the hougyoku for him as well, if he knew that his plan would fail and every move he made was predicted by Aizen, he would have definitely changed his plan

As for the last part, I partly agree, Urahara may have setup the meeting between Ichigo and Rukia but its a small chance that he actually did set it up but it kinda makes sense... I don't think he chose Rukia, it was probably coincidence

[spiderman121]

There is a phrase that 'there are no coincidences'. Uhrahara is surrounded by them. In fact, every conflict in the Bleach world is either caused by him or enabled by him, whether he just did something stupid or he is getting his kicks off it. If he put the hougyoku into Rukia as a child, how can you rule out that he did not set up Byakuya with Rukia's sister in the first place? For that matter Byakuya and Uhrahara could have been acomplices in the whole ordeal somehow. The whole Isshin relationship, make me think Ichigo is a planed expirement that he has been waiting to perform for 100+ years. We can see, that morals are not exactly sacred regardless how 'good' they are. Too many coinidences to where you can go insane with the possibilities.

P.S. Can someone answer if the very first arrancar or vaizord creation is ever explained?

[Maconi]

I wasn't necessarily suggesting Urahara is an evil person, just too curious for his own good.

Just like maybe he didn't intentionally make Ichigo into a Vaizard to form a semi-alliance with them. But such an intelligent person, he had to of known it was a possibility, and it has obviously worked in his favor.

According to the anime and different discussions held within it, Arrancar have existed for quite some time, even without the intervention of Aizen. His goal is just to perfect the anomalies and turn them into his soldiers to take over/destroy the world/SS.

So Urahara would have knowledge of both Vaizard and Arrancar for a very long time, and foresaw the upcoming war, but eh who knows.

The one thing I wonder is... what is Aizen himself? A Shinigami? An Arrancar? A Vaizard? He's a scientist himself, it's very possible he could have performed whatever experiments on himself. But that's off topic I suppose...

-Mac

EDIT: And one thing that I've never truely understood... how is Ichigo already so powerful? I mean, before he even discovered his own powers, while fighting Renji for the first time he went kinda crazy like he already had the "hollow power" within him. With reguards to what spiderman said above my post, I really wonder if Ichigo's had his whole life planned out for him since birth, by certain figures.

[spiderman121]

EDIT: And one thing that I've never truely understood... how is Ichigo already so powerful? I mean, before he even discovered his own powers, while fighting Renji for the first time he went kinda crazy like he already had the "hollow power" within him. With reguards to what spiderman said above my post, I really wonder if Ichigo's had his whole life planned out for him since birth, by certain figures.

He was simply high on his rather large spirit energy. I do not think that had anything to do with hollow power at the time. It was a new experience and he probable had something like a superman complex from the sensation\high. That does not mean that he absolutley did not have some form of hollow power at the time. It was a way to introduce us to his ridiculous spirtual energy.

[Maconi]

He was simply high on his rather large spirit energy. I do not think that had anything to do with hollow power at the time. It was a new experience and he probable had something like a superman complex from the sensation\high. That does not mean that he absolutley did not have some form of hollow power at the time. It was a way to introduce us to his ridiculous spirtual energy.

Yea but that's my point, why does it just so happen that Ichigo has such a huge hoard of reiatsu, even with borrowed SR powers? (the only logical reason I can come up with, is his dad is just lucky and has a huge amount as well, and Ichigo inherited it)

-Mac

[DFlux]

Probably Ichigo inherited his father's reiatsu, plus anything a regular human would have, mixing to become extremely potent (perhaps his mother was also a shinigami, we just don't know at this point).

I wonder how long Urahara has been watching him. And though Isshin apparently couldn't save Masaki that day, what about Urahara? Surely he would feel Grand Fisher?

[CrimzonLogic]

OMG I LOVE THREADS LIKE THIS!!! they make me think, they confuse me, and they totally blow my mind!!!

aw man, i got some theories but im gonna have to think about how to put 'em...

[bbnflpn]

Am I the only one that thinks Urahara isn't such a nice guy?

Why did he create Hougyoko in the first place?
Why was he creating untraceable Gigai's?

Also, didn't anyone else find the process in which he unlocked Ichigo's Soul Reaper powers a little, eccentric? He KNEW what he was doing, he created a Vizard. "Look, the mask is forming first. It shows his resistance." (not a direct quote)

Even in one of the latest anime episodes, Ichigo's dad said "It seems that they've contacted him, just like you said they would."

In my opinion, Urahara knew that the only thing that could stand up against Aizen's Arrancar, is a Vizard. Problem is, the Vizards ain't allies with anyone, so they aren't gonna do squat to Aizen.

So he creates Ichigo as a link between the Shinigami and the Vizard, to fight against Aizen.

So the point is, Urahara knew from the very beginning Aizen was going to obtain the Hougyoku, and use it for Arrancar. Urahara probably setup the meeting between Ichigo and Rukia, to expose Ichigo to the Shinigami way, and take advantage of the situation to create his vital link with the Vizard. He probably gave Rukia the Gigai, to keep her stuck in the real world long enough, to get them emotionally attached, and make Ichigo WANT to save her.

Now why Urahara put the Hougyoku in her to begin with, and why he knew Aizen would end up with it, is beyond me, I'll think about that later. But the above, is my speculation on the rest of the situation.

-Mac
i agree, you said it better than i could. urahara knew what he was doing the whole time, he knew that this was gonna happen so he planed the whole thing with people he knew would do the job and take care of it. he probably gave ichigos dad an untraceable gigai in the first place, and had the whole thing set up with him, when he came to earth (so to speak) ichigos dad probably knew what azain was up too and knew that urahara was the only one who could think of a way to stop him once azain heard of uraharas research. his dad knew it was grand fisher who killed his wife, and that he didnt (or couldnt weather it was because he didnt get there in time or not) do anything to stop it from happening, but he was able to save ichigo (most likely what happend) because he knew that it was the plan in the first place, to get him mad enough to do something about it to make him use his powers but he didnt, he sliced up grand fisher real fast dont you think, but he does it now because the time has come to finish the plan now that ichigo is now a visard, hes saved rukia from azains plan, and got all the other shinigami to care about him as one of their own.

btw i have not read the manga this is only a guess about what is going on,

[DFlux]

From Urahara asking how it felt to be a shinigami after "20 years" I was under the impression Isshin couldn't even leave his body during that time (Masaki having died 6 years ago, it falls under there).

Do you think it's possible Urahara knows a thing or two about Aizen's personal power? I can't see how, since no one else did, but then, Urahara is a know-it-all and don't zanpakutou get recycled through the ages? Maybe Kyouka Suigetsu was wielded before and records were left of it.

[Undying]

I seriously disagree with a lot said in this thread... specifically Urahara's "all knowingess".

The man is not some sort of a God. Yes, he knows a lot, he schemes a lot, and he is genius enough to make most of his plans come to fruition. However, it's literaly impossible for him to know everything.

Things that he couldn't have possibly knows include; Rukia's adoption - her sister abandoned her when she was a babe, I doubt Urahara knew that Hisana was Rukia's sister. Otherwise he'd never have taken the chance to hide it in someone who might be snuffed to Seireitei any day.

Also, Aizen's betrayal. I doubt he was unaware of the possibilities the Hougyoku presents, and no doubt he knew about the possible greed - or scientific curiosity - that might make people want it.

However, there's just no way he knew Aizen would be the one to betray. There are a few reasons for that. 1. If he knew it was Aizen, he should have been able to get rid of him at the very start. There's no point in letting Aizen steal the Hougyoku. If he works with him, he should have just given it to him, and if he knew who it was, he whould have killed him back then. 2. Aizen fooled everyone - and no doubt that included Urahara. 3. Urahara may be a genius, but he can mak emistakes - I don't think he intended for Ichigo to become a Vaizard. It's just too obvious.

And obviously, he probably didn't know how good is Aizen. Look at it this way, Urahara has been outsmarted on every level so far. He failed to prevent the stealing of the Hougyoku (that is, if he knew someone was intending to steal the Hougyoku and didn't just have a paranoia attack).

He failed to properly gauge the strength of the Espada - he was surprised at Ulquiarra.

He failed to stop Orihime from being kidnapped. Unless he's working with Aizen (and that's unlikely because he didn't give him the Hougyoku already), he failed in all those things.

Urahara is genius, smart, and intelligent, but he's not all knowing.

Now, for the next part, let's see: Urahara probably had a paranoia attack and wanted the Hougyoku back, so he trained Ichigo and sent him there. I don't think it had anything to do with Aizen, he was just scared that the Hogyoku would be taken.

He probably severely underestimated Aizen's intellect and didn't realise that Rukia would be adopted into the Kuchiko family.

These two factors caused him to lose track of the Hougyoku, so he probably sent Ichigo there (seriously now, Ichigo had zero chance in Soul Society, realistically. It was mostly luck and Aizen that saved him). So, we reach the conclusion that although Urahara is a genius, he still made too many fatal mistakes.

[Maconi]

Well for one, I'm still questioning how concerned Urahara was over Hougyoku.

If he knew what it was capable of, even if he didn't suspect someone planning to steal it, he would have showed up and made up some excuse, or even explained it to Renji/Byakuya when they took Rukia back, unless he was cocky enough to think Ichigo could bring her back safely with the Hougyoku. (and he isn't stupid, if he really believed Ichigo could do it, he would have to belive in his powers, either knowing of his Viazard possibilities, or some sort of super legacy through Isshin)

Either way there are so many lose ends. Whenever Bleach ends, it's gonna smack us all in the face "OHHHHHHHHHH, why didn't we think of that?" lol

-Mac

[Undying]

I bet it would be just that. That's Bleach for you.

But personaly, I think Urahara wasn't trying to get the Hougyoku back. Rather, I think he figured that if Rukia was already taken he might as well use the chance to uncover whoever was trying to steal it (Aizen), and at the same time use the chance to perhaps overuse the Hougyoku and destroy it completely.

[DFlux]

Undying, that's what I think was the most likely objective. I mean, at first he would have been scared about someone getting Hougyoku, but once it was taken... why not take out the villain at the same time? He probably had NO idea that besides being amazingly intelligent, his opponent was also freakishly strong (as I say, I don't think he realised who was after it).

Too bad the barrier rejected him. I'm quite sure if he COULD have entered Soul Society that time, there would be no chance for Aizen to succeed.

But then again... there would be no Bleach.

[CrimzonLogic]

after reading undying's post, ive decided that my idea was stupid so i wont post it. and anything we talk about that hasn't happened in the manga/anime is just fanfiction(unless they have a flashback later showing that it did actually happen), so thats just one more reason why my idea was dumb! :redbiggri


Either way there are so many lose ends. Whenever Bleach ends, it's gonna smack us all in the face "OHHHHHHHHHH, why didn't we think of that?" lol
-Mac
yeah, it probably will, so theres really no point in discussing what might happen any further. lets not think about it, let it be a surprise. i'll just wait for the story to continue.

[spiderman121]

After watching the last 3 episodes, I have completly changed my mind about Urahara. Intelligent or not the guy gets his thrills from chaos. He did create the Hougyoku, for whatever reason, but realized that it would mean war, death, and a lot of unpredictable whatever. Its like a game for him and I think it would be the equivelent of a theme park of amusement in his head. I would say it is also, way out of his control, and he is enjoying that he is along for the ride. He is enjoying what trouble he is responsible for and getting his kicks watching it evolve to whatever will happen.

[Jay3205]

I think Urahara generally knew about Houkyouku and that a bunch of Arrancar would soon be formed, but I doubt he knew about everything. How could he "set up" a meeting between Rukia and Ichigo if he's been banned from SS since before Ichigo was born?

The way he restored Ichigo's power may have been eccentric, but it also may have been the only way to restore his power. He probably didn't know Ichigo would become a vaizard since Ichigo could've become a shinigami before the chain fully dissolved. There is probably no *restore-your-shinigami-power* pill that would restore his power.

[Feign]

I agree with Undying in that Uruhara definitely didn't know the future. Also that he placed the Houkyouku in Rukia long before she went to Earth, Likely before she even met Renji. Remember, there was a time when it looked like she wouldn't make it to adulthood, and if she had died with the Houkyouku in her soul, it would have gone with that soul to be reborn as a human, therefore becoming completely hidden somehow.

The Gegai that slowly turns a Shingami into a human would also have the same effect... Though it seems he created teh two seperately, and that gegai technology likely had a less noble purpose when it was designed.

In the same tone, I don't believe that Uruhara is a good guy. while he didn't have the Houkyouku when he 'recreated' Ichigo, he did still have all the knowledge that went into it. And that knowledge of the line between Shingami and Hollow allowed him to better the chances of Ichigo becoming a Vaizard.

I won't say that he predicted that a Shingami traitor would take the Houkyouku and use it to build an army, the possibility was clearly there. And in such a case, having a loyal ally who is true-blooded of captain-level decent and a Vaisard would prove very useful.

Aizen and Uruhara are both definitely the main strategists of this series. It seems like the two are playing chess with the Shingami and hollows as their pieces. Even with that much influence, a player can never see the game through to the end just from looking at the first moves.

[spiderman121]

Oh boy!! we come full circle on this thread.. Urahara is an idiot or he was dangleing the Hogykou out ther as bait. Either way, it just caused a lot of excitment and I still think Urahara is a little bit addicted to Choas and trying to manuver within it.

[SenpaiRetsu]

Oh boy!! we come full circle on this thread.. Urahara is an idiot or he was dangleing the Hogykou out ther as bait. Either way, it just caused a lot of excitment and I still think Urahara is a little bit addicted to Choas and trying to manuver within it.


Yes it did, and it showed how WRONG undying was haha. i don't know why i am amused but i am. i think it's because he puts so much effort in and he was way off.

[Undying]

Yes it did, and it showed how WRONG undying was haha. i don't know why i am amused but i am. i think it's because he puts so much effort in and he was way off.

Necrothreading for the lose?

Anyway, would you care to point me to where I was WRONG since it apparently gives you such a BLAST because it means that I may be WRONG and Unohana is in fact uberpowerful (a fact I never denied, but meh)?

If you're referring to my post in this thread about how Urahara wants to uncover Aizen, it's not wrong. At least not with the information we have right now. Do try and not force me to explain you why I was not wrong.

[xiphosforr]

i thin kits pretty obvious why he left the Hyougyouku to be taken...
because it's a t.v show and otherwise they would have to come up with a whole new story so really we should be thanking Urahara for making such an awesome arc for Bleach
:D
-bow down to his superior smartitude-

[SenpaiRetsu]

Undying quoteHowever, there's just no way he knew Aizen would be the one to betray. There are a few reasons for that. 1. If he knew it was Aizen, he should have been able to get rid of him at the very start. There's no point in letting Aizen steal the Hougyoku. If he works with him, he should have just given it to him, and if he knew who it was, he whould have killed him back then. 2. Aizen fooled everyone - and no doubt that included Urahara. 3. Urahara may be a genius, but he can mak emistakes - I don't think he intended for Ichigo to become a Vaizard. It's just too obvious.

1. He knew Aizen betrayed.
2. Didn't fool Urahara
3. He did intend for ichigo to become a vaizard, he knew about the mask


And obviously, he probably didn't know how good is Aizen.

4. He knew exactly how strong Aizen was. even as a VC he could counter the kidou captain.

It's cool so what u were wrong we're all wrong sometimes, i certainly am. Not knocking u for it just found it amusing how u came to the opposite conclusions as the current situation.

Use spoiler tags when appropriate. This is the anime section.

-KholdStare

[Undying]

Undying quote

1. He knew Aizen betrayed.
Wrong, he knew Aizen was involved with the Hollofication.
2. Didn't fool Urahara
Didn't he? What did Urahara know? That Aizen is somehow involved with Hollofication. Everything else until that point fooled Urahara just like everyone else.
3. He did intend for ichigo to become a vaizard, he knew about the mask
For one thing, he had no way of knowing (as far as we know) that the Shattered shaft would turn Ichigo into a Vaizard. Only when Ichigo began transforming into a Hollow he may have noticed something. For another, "knowing about the mask" =/= knowing said person is a Vaizard. The only way he could have known is if he heard about Ichigo in Soul Society form Yoruichi and other sources. There is no evidence whatsoever to intentional hollofication.
4. He knew exactly how strong Aizen was. even as a VC he could counter the kidou captain.
Lol. Show me where I mentioned "strength" in the sentence: And obviously, he probably didn't know how good is Aizen. Good =/= powerful. I have no idea what I meant with that line (hey, it was like yonks ago) but I'm pretty sure that I never meant anything about "power".

Also, Dankuu has been stated to block every Kidou below 90 and as such is no testament to Aizen's power.
It's cool so what u were wrong we're all wrong sometimes, i certainly am. Not knocking u for it just found it amusing how u came to the opposite conclusions as the current situation.
Lol. Tye said it way better than I:

Unraveling past speculation with currently released information is rather petty.
Yeah... Undying is never wrong.

[KholdStare]

When you post a manga spoiler accidentally, I realize that you can make a mistake. But it is quite irritating when you understand that you have posted a manga spoiler and you do NOT correct yourself. Please don't do this again in the future or there will be a penalty.

[mebidtt13]

I don't think it's "Lack of intelligent". I think it's just that he never though about it. No one really did. Who would know what Aizen's plans really was? So I think it has nothing to do with it xD

[Esca]

For one thing, he had no way of knowing (as far as we know) that the Shattered shaft would turn Ichigo into a Vaizard. Only when Ichigo began transforming into a Hollow he may have noticed something. For another, "knowing about the mask" =/= knowing said person is a Vaizard. The only way he could have known is if he heard about Ichigo in Soul Society form Yoruichi and other sources. There is no evidence whatsoever to intentional hollofication.

I am glad I bookmarked this page:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/63/11/

Urahara knew it'd turn him into a Vaizard as the only way for him to gain Shinigami powers was becoming a Hollow. I couldn't resist.

[Sin]

I'll add to Esca's post by posting this: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.12/18/

Kisuke apparently predicted this as being the worst possible situation that could happen, which means anytime in the past he tried to stop somethiing from happening means that he was only trying to prevent the worst outcome not that he was outsmarted by Aizen so therefore this thread is really nulled and voided.