Kurosaki Ichigo Vs. Kaname Tousen.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Searched for a thread, couldn't find it. If there is one and i missed it, delete this please :)

So then, the orange-haired protaganist of the Bleach story against Aizen's blind no3.

Ichigo has Bankai and the mask. He's not suffering from "Ogichi problems", nor does he have "plot invulnerability"
Tousen is the new Tousen we saw cutting off Grimmjow's arm. He has enma kourogi.

If you're using manga evidence to support your argument, please post it in [spoiler*=Manga] [/*spoiler] tags please.


My opinion:

To be fair, i think Ichigo would take this. First off, we have the whole Kenpachi thing. Shikai Ichigo narrowly defeated "No eyepatch" Kenpachi. If we take Ichigo's bankai to increase his strength tenfold, and the mask to increase it twenty-fold, Ichigo's a whole 20 times stronger than Zaraki, who managed to beat Tousen in his own bankai. Of course, we don't know how much Tousen's strength has increased.

Now then; Tousen's bankai.
Zaraki only managed to defeat Tousen in it because he's so fearless, right?.
However, right before Tousen used bankai, Konamura leapt out of the way. My money would be on Bankai Ichigo being faster than Konamura, so he shouldn't have any trouble avoiding it. Also, i think that you are still able to sense reiroyku in Tousen's bankai. Remember when Zaraki was conjuring up images of Yachiru and Ikkaku? Yachiru "said" something like "Sense his spirit power" and zaraki replied "I can't do that anyway."

If Ichigo does get trapped in Tousen's bankai, all he does is pull down the mask. If Zaraki is fast enough to move out of the way of Tousen's sword strikes by touch alone, Masked Ichigo sure as hell is.


Post your thoughts/opinions.

[Bathala]

im havin doubts as to who would win but all i know is that in the anime:

Ichigo fought to a draw wit zaraki
Zaraki defeated Tousen
Grimmjow defeated Ichigo(in their first fight)
Tousen easily cuts off Grimmjow's arm which(to me) suggests that Tousen can defeat Grimmjow

[Seff vi Britannia]

There were several factors working against Grimmjow,

The "suprise" of Ichigo's Kuroi GT, which lead to...
..Grimmjows blind bloodlust...

And, He was in the prescence of Aizen.

Also, Ichigo owns Grimmjow the second time round, with his mask.

[Yuffie]

I think Tousen will win :3 He's more stronger :3 :3

[Undying]

To be fair, i think Ichigo would take this. First off, we have the whole Kenpachi thing. Shikai Ichigo narrowly defeated "No eyepatch" Kenpachi. If we take Ichigo's bankai to increase his strength tenfold, and the mask to increase it twenty-fold, Ichigo's a whole 20 times stronger than Zaraki, who managed to beat Tousen in his own bankai. Of course, we don't know how much Tousen's strength has increased.
Sealed Tosen cut off Grimmjow's arm. Bankai + mask + Getsuga Tenshou Ichigo wasn't able to fully slice off any of Grimmjow's appendages nor to even do more than a huge gash on unreleased + one armed + surprised Grimmjow.

So then, cutting power of sealed Tosen > cutting power of bankai + mask + Getsuga Ichigo.

So them, let's go into bankai and increase Tosen's power by a factor of ten...
Now then; Tousen's bankai.
Zaraki only managed to defeat Tousen in it because he's so fearless, right?.
However, right before Tousen used bankai, Konamura leapt out of the way. My money would be on Bankai Ichigo being faster than Konamura, so he shouldn't have any trouble avoiding it. Also, i think that you are still able to sense reiroyku in Tousen's bankai. Remember when Zaraki was conjuring up images of Yachiru and Ikkaku? Yachiru "said" something like "Sense his spirit power" and zaraki replied "I can't do that anyway."

You can't sense reiryoku in Tosen's bankai. Zaraki says, "I can't see or hear... and can't sense spirit energy, but I sucked in that anyway".

And as for jumping out of the way, that is assuming that the victom KNOWS what's coming up for him. Ichigo wouldn't know what will happen once Tosen unleashed bankai.

[Kimochi]

err .. two types of ichi ..

the one now .. without ogichi .. tousen would be winning of cux .. ichigo now is a little weak .. not strong enough against tousen ..

if ichigo were to fight after hollowfication, he would win .. maybe .. because he might be way stronger than he is now ..

[Seff vi Britannia]

Well, Tousen saying "ban-kai" might give Ichigo a clue as to whats going on.

And let's remember that Grimmjow was completely distracted when Tousen attacked him. He was completely focused on Aizen, had no defence ready whatsoever, and wasnt even expecting the attack.

Ogichi isn't trying to take over Ichigo, but if Ichigo suffers against Tousen, Ogichi will come out-he's still part of Ichigo's powers.

@Undying, point taken about Zaraki. I couldn't remember the episode completely.

Also, Tousen's bankai dosent appear to augment his speed, reiroyku, or strength.

And a bankai Ichigo was able to give Grimmjow a permenant scar, when he actually saw the attack coming and raised a defence.


-And let's stick with things we know. We don't know that Tousen is a vaizard. Personally, i doubt it.

[Undying]

Also, Tousen's bankai dosent appear to augment his speed, reiroyku, or strength.
bankai increases strength as default, otherwise it would be worthless form those who do not have a strength based weapon, as their power would not grow, leaving them every bit as weak as they were against an opponent warranting bankai.
And a bankai Ichigo was able to give Grimmjow a permenant scar, when he actually saw the attack coming and raised a defence.
But a Vaizard bankai using Ichigo was unable to do the same. Grimmjow didn't have another scar afterwards, and when he fought against Ichigo he was already weakened.
-And let's stick with things we know. We don't know that Tousen is a vaizard. Personally, i doubt it.
So do I.

Anyway, in both cases it was a surprise. In Tosen's case, Grimmjow was caught off guard. In Vizard Ichigo's attack case, Grimmjow was also caught by surprise, since he didn't expect such a power up within such a short time.

Now, in Tosen's case, Grimmjow was still two armed. In Ichigo's case, he was one-armed and weakened. But Ichigo was still unable to slash his through - he only did a gash on his torso - whereas Tosen, without bankai, was able to slash off Grimmjow's arm effortlessly.

And a bankai Ichigo was able to give Grimmjow a permenant scar, when he actually saw the attack coming and raised a defence.
No, it was also by surprise. Grimmjow didn't know Ichigo had a ranged attack. And if throwing your hands in front of you is called "defense", then it's really weird...
Well, Tousen saying "ban-kai" might give Ichigo a clue as to whats going on.
Yes, but not to the effects. Ichigo would never realize he will lose his senses until after he does.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Yes, but not to the effects. Ichigo would never realize he will lose his senses until after he does.

Point taken.

However, Let's bear in mind, with the vaizard Ichigo thing, that Ichigo had forced Ogichi to concede literally minutes before, and had no idea as to using the mask properly (i don't think he does even now, in the Ulquiorra battle.)

And i still think that being in Aizen's presence worked against Grimmjow an incredible amount. More than being caught off-gaurd by Getsuga Tenshou or even the mask did.

[Undying]

However, Let's bear in mind, with the vaizard Ichigo thing, that Ichigo had forced Ogichi to concede literally minutes before, and had no idea as to using the mask properly (i don't think he does even now, in the Ulquiorra battle.)
Let's also bear in mind that Ichigo has no idea how to properly use the mask still... until such time as he starts spamming Cero blasts all over the place, the mask is only useful as a power upgrade, and a temporary and unstable one at that.

And i still think that being in Aizen's presence worked against Grimmjow an incredible amount. More than being caught off-gaurd by Getsuga Tenshou or even the mask did.
It most likely did, as Grimmjow was probably scared of Aizen's wrath. But surprse is surprise, no matter what causes it.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Yup, i think it seems we're pretty much in agreement then, at least about Aizen and the mask. To be fair, until we see definate proof as to Tousen's power upgrade, we can't say for sure.

I fancy a Tousen vs. Ishida match :)

[Undying]

Yup, i think it seems we're pretty much in agreement then, at least about Aizen and the mask. To be fair, until we see definate proof as to Tousen's power upgrade, we can't say for sure.

I fancy a Tousen vs. Ishida match :)
Indeed :Domo .

Tosen VS Ishida eh?

Interesting. I say four-eyes win because he has more fans xD.

[Ichi-Zoro 3]

Don't think Tousen is very strong just because you saw him burn grimmjow's arm

grimmjow can't fight tousen that time coz aizen didn't allow him..

I think tousen is still weak.. Urahara or Ichigo can still pwn him

[Undying]

Cutting through the Ierro without even trying is called strong.

[Ichi-Zoro 3]

Cutting through the Ierro without even trying is called strong.

Whatever!! someday ichigo will beat him.

[smach]

Cutting through the Ierro without even trying is called strong.maybe arancar can also harden their ierro using reiatsu, the same way shinigami can use theirs to protect themselves or sharpen their swords.

that would explain why tousen was able to cut off the unsuspecting grimjow's arm.

[Jay3205]

^^ Ulquiorra is surprised that Yammi got his arm cut off so easily, even though Yammi was surprised by Ichigo's strength.

[squid]

UGH i hate tousen
but he would win
cause his bankai would take ichigo down
tho if ogihci came out himself and ichigo didnt summon him
ichigo would win

[smach]

UGH i hate tousen
but he would win
cause his bankai would take ichigo down
tho if ogihci came out himself and ichigo didnt summon him
ichigo would winif ichigo fought with natural instinct like ogichi then he would definitely win, but knowing ichigo he'd probably start trying to reason and ogichi would be forced to come out and take care of business, then ichigo would piss ogichi even more by surpressing him right before he finishes tousen.

[Jay3205]

Well, bankai Ichigo is fast enough to just run to the edge of the bankai if need be. Realistically, surprise would probably prevent him from doing this though.

[smach]

Well, bankai Ichigo is fast enough to just run to the edge of the bankai if need be. Realistically, surprise would probably prevent him from doing this though.or he could use a smart/dumb/ingenious move and let out a getsuga tenshou, which would probably rip through it...assuming the balloon isn't resistant to attacks.

[Jay3205]

Well, Tousen said it is possible to just run to the edge of the bankai to escape its effect, so I think the darkness and chains is just an area of effect rather than a physical edge. But I'm really not sure either way.

[smach]

Well, Tousen said it is possible to just run to the edge of the bankai to escape its effect, so I think the darkness and chains is just an area of effect rather than a physical edge. But I'm really not sure either way.where/when did he say that? but i'm with you too...not too sure about tousen's bankai and its features.

[Seff vi Britannia]

He said that in the Zaraki battle when he was ranting about how he had to kill him.

[T_Ichigo]

I just came to think of what Ichigo is capable of if it happaned that he was cought in Tousen's enmakourogi. But Ichigo himself, wouldn't stand and watch while Tousen releases his bankai and I'm almost convinced that Ichigo somehow would be able to dodge Tousen's bankai with a thought of his speed. And if we're adding his mask, then the rate of a successful escape from Tousen's bankai would be higher !!!
Still I don't know who would win since I've never seen Ichigo using his mask with consioussness.

Ierro = ironskin ? :S lol
I don't know why Grimmjow didn't dodge Tousen's strike, he ought to be able to do that, since he can dodge Ichigo's strikes with Tensa Zangetsu as if it was a toy.
If we take that into consideration, then at the moment I would say that Tousen > Ichigo :S correct me if I'm wrong

[Lust]

>_>
did you include the power up tousen get from aizen? beside... ichigo cant even beat grimmjow (in the anime) while tousen one hand can block the attack.....since grimmjow listen to him probably tousen is strong or he scare of aizen...and his bankai..maybe its change already due to the power up...but it still no prove yet...

[squid]

tousen would stall so long that ichigo would have a chance for ogihci to come out and probally beat tousen

[Lust]

hmm probably...but in 10 sec....if tousen bankai and make him blind...ichigo will transform back to normalafter the duration

[Seff vi Britannia]

it still remains to be proved that Tousen's recieved any kind of power up. He's still as naive and easy to manipulate as he was back in the SS arc, anyway.

[smach]

I just came to think of what Ichigo is capable of if it happaned that he was cought in Tousen's enmakourogi. But Ichigo himself, wouldn't stand and watch while Tousen releases his bankai and I'm almost convinced that Ichigo somehow would be able to dodge Tousen's bankai with a thought of his speed. And if we're adding his mask, then the rate of a successful escape from Tousen's bankai would be higher !!!
Still I don't know who would win since I've never seen Ichigo using his mask with consioussness.

Ierro = ironskin ? :S lol
I don't know why Grimmjow didn't dodge Tousen's strike, he ought to be able to do that, since he can dodge Ichigo's strikes with Tensa Zangetsu as if it was a toy.
If we take that into consideration, then at the moment I would say that Tousen > Ichigo :S correct me if I'm wronggrimjow wasn't fighting tousen, he was just standing there and then tousen decides to go all righteous on him at point blank range. ichigo used getsuga tenshou which slightly bruised a prepared grimjow.

>_>
did you include the power up tousen get from aizen? beside... ichigo cant even beat grimmjow (in the anime) while tousen one hand can block the attack.....since grimmjow listen to him probably tousen is strong or he scare of aizen...and his bankai..maybe its change already due to the power up...but it still no prove yet...what attack is this that tousen can block one handed, ichigo's getsuga tenshou? i doubt it. and like it's been pointed out in the manga section, hollows/arancars aren't known that well for cooperating with each other or anyone for that matter, so they're all basically cooperating out of the fear they have for aizen.

[Undying]

Ichigo cut off Yammy arm in BANKAI mode. Tosen sliced off Grimmjow's arm WITHOUT releasing. I think the difference in power is quite clear.

Oh and Ichigo, try as he might, was unable to cut through Zaraki, even with a bankai+Getsuga+Vizard mode. All he did was gash Grimmjow. Tosen sliced off Grimmjow's arm without utilizing any special moves.

I don't get why people don't see the difference in cutting power.

[smach]

Ichigo cut off Yammy arm in BANKAI mode. Tosen sliced off Grimmjow's arm WITHOUT releasing. I think the difference in power is quite clear.

Oh and Ichigo, try as he might, was unable to cut through Zaraki, even with a bankai+Getsuga+Vizard mode. All he did was gash Grimmjow. Tosen sliced off Grimmjow's arm without utilizing any special moves.

I don't get why people don't see the difference in cutting power.i'm gonna assume you meant to say grimjow, not zaraki. to me that shows that an arancar can harden their ierro when in combat, which would explain why tousen's unexpected sneak attack in the name of righteousness was able to take off grimjow's arm.

sure, tousen's reiatsu might be more than ichigo's shikai, but the difference might get leveled out by ichigo's bankai coz tousen's bankai doesn't give him any special abilities apart from leaving his oponent with only the sense of touch, which for zaraki was good enough.

unless tousen reveals some other hidden feature of his bankai i think ichigo would be able to beat him.

[Undying]

Yes, I mean Grimmjow, pardon my typo.

In any event, no Arracnar cannot harden their Ierro with more reiatsu. Proof? Ikkaku fought Edorado, and just when he was about to cut through his Ierro, Edorado used his SWORD to block. Now Edorado wasn't in a surprise attack mode (Ichigo attack Grimmjow in the first time with Getsuga by surprise, Grimmjow didn't know it had the Getsuga), so he COULD have hardened his Ierro.

So why hadn't he? Because he can't. Otherwise, he'd just harden his skin and let Ikkaku cut him for all his worth. It wouldn't matter because he can harden his armor at will. But clearly, he can't.

So Ichigo bankai Getsuga only gave Grimmjow a scar (Grimmjow tossed his HANDS in front of him to defend, but still had them when the attack subsided. The Getsuga hit him in the wrists, where it's much thinner than the shoulder where Tosen cut him). Tosen's UNRELEASED blade slashed Grimmjow's arm off without even trying.

Next up, Bankai + Vizard + Close Range Getsuga + surprise attack. If Grimmjow was able to harden his skin to deflect anything, he would not need his sword to defend. But he HAD used his sword to defend himself. And still Ichigo's Getsuga only gashed him, not cut through him.

From here it's clear to see that Tosen's cutting power surpasses Ichigo's by far. That wouldn't be possible without having adequate power to back it.

[Jay3205]

Besides, Ulquiorra comments on his surprise that Ichigo could cut through Yammi's hierro. There would be no need for this comment unless his hierro was indeed active when Yammi was surprise attacked, so the hierro must be active whether they are surprised or not. Besides, it's not like they can just change their skin density any more than shinigami can.

[byakuya999]

tousen would win

[smach]

ah well ichigo would win eventually coz he's the shounen protagonist but as it stands right now it seems pretty obvious that tousen would win...in short you guys got me convinced...i'm on you side now :)

[Seff vi Britannia]

There's more cutting power in a sword than in a blast of reiatsu.

I still think that you guys are setting too much by Grimmjows arm. He was in the presence of Aizen, and therefore weakened and distracted.

[Undying]

Getsuga > Ichigo's regular bankai cutting force. There is a LOT more cutting power in that blast of reiatsu.

Grimmjow wasn't entirely distracted, Tosen does blabber about how he wants to execute him and all.

[smach]

There's more cutting power in a sword than in a blast of reiatsu. flashback: zaraki pours all his reiatsu into beating ichigo and valaa!!! he can slice through an entire buiding...with one swing...without even touching the building!!!

I still think that you guys are setting too much by Grimmjows arm. He was in the presence of Aizen, and therefore weakened and distracted. to me he didn't seem that distracted, more like calm. he even shows disrespect to aizen >>> in the manga (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/11/) <<< when asked about his actions. when they're all having tea and aizen forces him to his knees using bare reiatsu.

Grimmjow wasn't entirely distracted, Tosen does blabber about how he wants to execute him and all. yea but i'm not so sure grimjow was expecting such an act "in the name of justice" by tousen. sure, everyone knows he finds himself to be righteous but i don't think anyone really expected him to go that far.doesn't he know what's gonna be involved in achieving aizen's goal? or more specifically to karakura town?

or what might happen to the espada once aizen gets what he wants? of what use are they gonna be to him later?

[Undying]

Mmm? If he wanted to execute Grimmjow, I was willing to bet he would do SOMETHING. I didn't expect him to slice off his arm, though.

But if a person saying "I'm going to execute you" is not enough to put one on guard (when the said person knows that whoever said it CAN execute him, I think the Espada aren't such retards that they don't know that their admin can't beat them), then Grimmjow deserved his demotion.

[smach]

Mmm? If he wanted to execute Grimmjow, I was willing to bet he would do SOMETHING. I didn't expect him to slice off his arm, though.

But if a person saying "I'm going to execute you" is not enough to put one on guard (when the said person knows that whoever said it CAN execute him, I think the Espada aren't such retards that they don't know that their admin can't beat them), then Grimmjow deserved his demotion.to me it seemed like grimjow took the whole threat matter lightly, probably figured tousen wouldn't be allowed to do such a thing. and i'm betting grim would've reacted and released if tousen was given the permission to execute him, or if tousen unsheathed his sword and approached him slowly. it's kinda like walking in the streets with your dad, who is strict as ****. you'd also be blown away by his actions if he unexpectedly unleashes hell on you.

unless aizen gave tousen and gin some powerups, or unless they were all pretending to be weak in SS, i think grim would've done some damage to tousen.

[Undying]

I pretty much doubt there was any power-ups, they haven't shown any change at all. They were pretending to be weak (for captains), in my opinion.

As for Grimmjow, as I said he wasn't completely ignroing Tosen, because the latter actually did fume about him.

[smach]

that little ***** pisses me off with his righteousness...if he feels so badly about loosing a couple arancar, whose plus souls probably went to SS after dying, then why isn't he against aizen since the souls he'll use to achieve his goal won't even go to SS? his character is kinda confusing to me...maybe he'll come to open his imaginary eyes in the future and make an attempt to stop aizen, in which he'll probably fail and die as regrets ever joining him in the first place.

well i wonder what the vaizards and SS and the fantastic four (urahara/isshin/yoruichi/ryuuken) are gonna do to defeat aizen...i bet some people will die in the end, especially yoruichi and urahara.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Yes, I mean Grimmjow, pardon my typo.

In any event, no Arracnar cannot harden their Ierro with more reiatsu. Proof? Ikkaku fought Edorado, and just when he was about to cut through his Ierro, Edorado used his SWORD to block. Now Edorado wasn't in a surprise attack mode (Ichigo attack Grimmjow in the first time with Getsuga by surprise, Grimmjow didn't know it had the Getsuga), so he COULD have hardened his Ierro.




Poor argument. Maybe Ikkakus attack was just too strong? If Edorado realised.
"Well shit, no matter how much i harden my ierro this attack is still going to cut through." He probably would draw his sword.

[Undying]

Then you're saying that Ikkaku > Tosen.

[Seff vi Britannia]

No, i'm saying that Ikkakus attack was two strong for Edorado. And Grimm didn't exactly have time to draw his sword. Please don't put words in my mouth.

[Undying]

Grimmjow put his arms up to protect from the Getsuga.

The Getsuga didn't slice off his hands at the wrists as it should have if it has as much power as Tosen.

Tosen sliced Grimmjow's arm at the shoulder where it's thicker than the wrist without releasing his sword into shikai, even.

Hence Tosen cutting power > Ichigo cutting power.

[diamondedge]

Tosen sliced Grimmjow's arm at the shoulder where it's thicker than the wrist without releasing his sword into shikai, even.

Hence Tosen cutting power > Ichigo cutting power.

Ha, I wanted to come up with exactly same arguments, but there is no need to now that you've said everything. I agree. Grimjaw didn't even realise what happened when his arm was cut off.
Yes, as you said, Getsuga hardly made a scratch on Grimmjaw's hands. So as for now, i have to go with Tousen.

[Lust]

Tousen will win for now (in manga)
anime...nah,ichigo cant win him since tousen pwn grimmy and grimmy pwn ichigo

[Mikado]

Tousen got some super-power up or he just went easy on Zaraki, cause Tousen looks faar stronger than ichigo. Plus Ichigo was frightend by Gimmi's power, and tosen wanted to pick a fight with him o.O. But since I follow the anime, I can't say to much about tousens power, but wiith speculations; Tousen owns Ichigo.

[Zorokai]

TUT ICHIGO THIS IS A VERY BIASED OPIONION HAHAHA

have a nice day people =]

[silverwolf801]

look people ichigo is curently having problems with the 4th rank espada what actually makes you think he is up to tousens level of strength

[Yanniv]

look people ichigo is curently having problems with the 4th rank espada what actually makes you think he is up to tousens level of strength

Who said Tousen was any stronger? I doubt Tousen is a Vizard and feel he is weaken than Grimmjow.

[h3h3h3]

Grimmy would have prolly killed Tosen in released form, and Aizen would've not interfere in it if he didn't know what Grimmy is capable of.

[Guy]

Err... ultimately: Ichigo, main character always win.

For now... don't really know. I'm leaning towards Tousen a bit. Tousen unreleased can cut off Grimmjaw's arm. Vizard Ichigo after training couldn't cut off any part of Grimmjaw's body, if I recall correctly. And still, after the vizardness wears off, Grimmjaw totally pwned Ichigo again. Since Tousen unrelease is most likely greater than Grimmjaw... I'm leaning towards Tousen, although there isn't enough proof.

[FullMetal Rebel]

Tousen.simply because of what he did to grimmy.(poor grimmy why does he get owned so much?).and ichigo isn't going to beat tousen at this point in the manga since he can't touch the 4th espada.and since Tousen is second in command he's stronger than the 4th espada who threw off Urahara's shikai like it was a fly.That alone says it.

[Jay3205]

Tousen would probably win. Even if he is a vaizard, vaizards don't really get any strength boost until they put on their masks. Tousen had no mask on and still did more damage than bankai Ichigo could. Granted that's probably caused in part by catching Grimmjaw off guard, but Grimmjaw's strength probably doesn't change enough to go from blocking bankai swords to getting cut like a hot knife through butter.

[Goddessfreya]

Ichigo hands down.

[Klavier Gavin]

I would say Ichigo will win this. It's either Ichigo has already pointed his sword at Tousen's throat before he could say Bankai, or Ichigo will get beaten up pretty bad and the hollow takes over. The hollow has a fighting style similar to Kenpachi, fearless and deadly.