Chad vs. Kenpachi

[jack_zenith]

Seeing as they're bothe power types, who do you think will win?

[smach]

this is a stupid one, unless you're referring to the manga, which i doubt can be used in the general section.

[jack_zenith]

Yeah, Im referring to the manga Chad. Btw, I see people using the manga versions of the characters all the time in the General section.

[Undying]

Chad.

Zaraki is dead weight.

He can't beat the things Chad beat.

So there.

[h3h3h3]

Sado-kun takes this.

[Konpachi]

You people underestimate Kenpachi WAY too much...

[Undying]

And people like you overestimate Kenpachi WAY too much.

He's weak.

Get over it.

[Lust]

zaraki is too overated,he nothing even compare with the espada

[Undying]

Or arrancar at all.

[Lust]

well i think he might can pawn some arrancar since hitsu manage to pawn some weakling one...but the espada? nope

[Undying]

Hitsu beat them only due to surprise effect.

But yeah.

Zaraki is probably on Numero level.

A privaron would take him apart.

Chad should be roughly a little above Yammy's level in brute strength,

[Starlight]

Whaa? The last time I checked Chad couldn't even come close to beating a captain. Did I miss something or is this a cruel joke....I think Kenny wins this fight by the way.

[Lust]

well if you see the anime..hmm yup he still sux but the creator of this thread say...REFER to manga thus...he pawn zaraki

[Undying]

Whaa? The last time I checked Chad couldn't even come close to beating a captain. Did I miss something or is this a cruel joke....I think Kenny wins this fight by the way.
There's the enigmatic force known as manga where we gain our powers.

[h3h3h3]

Whaa? The last time I checked Chad couldn't even come close to beating a captain. Did I miss something or is this a cruel joke....I think Kenny wins this fight by the way.
Well Sado-kun was fighting back then with the toughest captain so that does not tell much.:lol

[leprousharry]

I think that Chad would resist long but be beaten realy bad, but would survive, as he always did. I think that the Reiatsu of Zaraki alone would stun Chad.

Zaraki is very limited by his lack of super-powers, but he's still a realy tough opponent.

The only thing that made Chad that far is his ability to survive to anything, but if you remember well, he have won only few battles (one hollow, few unseated shinigami, one gillian) and loose against stronger opponents (Shunsui, Yammi, an Arancaar, Noitora).

Each of the opponents that Chad won against would be pulverised againt Kenpachi. Even if Zaraki is of the weakest captains (due to his lack of super-power), we must not underestimate him.

To conclude, my opinion on Chad surviving long but be beaten at the end. Zaraki would probably not kill him, thinking Chad could be stronger eventualy.

[Undying]

You... don't read manga, do you...?

[cupnoodles]

chad gets owned. the dude is useless wherever he goes.

[Lust]

didnt you read undying post..?

[smach]

chad would win. why? coz i find his newlyfound powers and bankai-level abilities to be quite good. the arancar he fought seemed to be above komamura's bankai level, and i'm willing to bet that zaraki can't grab an attack and fend it off like ulqiorra or shinsui either. also, chad's speed also goes up when he uses his new powers.

for those who don't read the manga: you better be prepared for some major spoilers
>>> Chapter 259 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/259/08/) <<<
>>> Chapter 260 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/260/01/) <<<
>>> Chapter 261 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/261/01/) <<<

[cupnoodles]

didnt you read undying post..?
if you're talking to me, the answer is no.
and if you're gonna tell me to back up my 2 cents with proof, citation, written essays, research, or whatever, i rather not.
it was just my 2 cents.
though i'll admit i may be a bit biased against chad since i've always hated him for being incompetent.

[Jay3205]

Zaraki should be above Yammi's (unreleased strength). Ichigo could block his punch without even flinching or being moved. Since Ichigo's bankai gives him speed only and not strength, Zaraki should be above Yammi's unreleased strength. Since Chad has struggles with opponents weaker than Yammi, Zaraki would win. Chad's long range blasts won't help him without a surprise element.

[Seff vi Britannia]

I've said it before Undy, i'll say it again. Hits and Renji, without limits, would have torn apart Illforte and Shawlong.

Manga chad takes this. To be fair, his defence is amazing, far more than zarakis "cut me" attitude. His attacks are powerful, especially La Muerte, and i think that when we're talking pure power attacks, if Zaraki gets hit, he's a bit buggered.

@Jay. Chad got a major powerup. He ripped gantenbeim apart.

[smach]

off topic:

I've said it before Undy, i'll say it again. Hits and Renji, without limits, would have torn apart Illforte and Shawlong. hitsugaya probably would've had no problem, but renji admits that he got lucky coz of the surprise element that was brought by the limit release.

[gundamwing0]

I think with his new power he would stand on = ground with zaraki

[Guy]

Chad, with manga powers, will most likely win.

It seems like Zaraki really isn't the badass warrior that we all thought he was.

[lilmajin]

Jay3205 - Ichigo's bankai increases his speed AND his strength.

Manga Chad would ace Zaraki, it wouldn't be funny.

[Zanga]

Provide me a manga chapter saying that it also increases his strength, cause all I remember is Byakuya explaining that Zangetsu condensed itself into a small form allowing Ichigo to fight at supersonic speed.

Or am i just pulling things out of my ass?

[Zorokai]

100% zaraki cos hes mental!!

owns loads apart from ichigo hahahaaa

have fun and have a nice day =]

[Jay3205]

Zanga is right, Ichigo's bankai only increases speed. Nobody ever mentions anything about Ichigo getting stronger. Grimmjaw even notices that the only thing different about bankai Ichigo is his speed.

[Zanga]

I would not say ACE right through him. Zaraki would put up one hell of a fight, especially since Chad got something he was seriously lacking. Speed and a defence.

But Zaraki DOES(or one can assume) have goood instincts, he wouldn't be wearing those bells to taunt the opponent if he couldn't do the same, AND his close combat is good, him being able to take out two captains with pure skills

FYI, don't pull the "He fought tousen first" shit. Before Tousen went bankai, Komamaru and him engaged Zaraki in close combat after using their shikais together and were murked heavily.

Zaraki stopped both their 2 swords with his 1 blade(and one hand i might add), sent Tousen flying into a wall 100 ft away AND flipped Koma over(note, Koma is much bigger then even Zaraki) like he was dead weight =/ Don't pull the Zaraki doesn't know how to fight shit, cause he does.

But with Manga chad it can go either way.

[smach]

Provide me a manga chapter saying that it also increases his strength, cause all I remember is Byakuya explaining that Zangetsu condensed itself into a small form allowing Ichigo to fight at supersonic speed.

Or am i just pulling things out of my ass? oh and i guess the black getsuga tenshou isn't worth shit, just as powerful as the shikai...and all that reiatsu ichigo released before going bankai on byakuya also vanished into thin air.

bankai increases power 5-10 times automatically, so of course it increased his strength. the thing is that power also goes to his body making him able to shunpo so fast especially compared to other bankais and makes his getsuga tenshou more powerful. but that same powerup that ichigo gets from bankai also fucks him up coz his body can't handle all that power for long so he gets 'wiped out by his own reiatsu', just like ogichi said.

I would not say ACE right through him. Zaraki would put up one hell of a fight, especially since Chad got something he was seriously lacking. Speed and a defence. yea zaraki would lose in the end but if he starts off at full power instead of the "cut me" attitude then i think it would be an interesting fight to watch.

But Zaraki DOES(or one can assume) have goood instincts, he wouldn't be wearing those bells to taunt the opponent if he couldn't do the same, AND his close combat is good, him being able to take out two captains with pure skills i think the bells were for helping weak opponents like when he fought ichigo...the bells helped ichigo defend himself from zaraki when zaraki snuck behind him (possibly using shunpo)

zaraki didn't take out the two captains, he only took out tousen.

FYI, don't pull the "He fought tousen first" shit. Before Tousen went bankai, Komamaru and him engaged Zaraki in close combat after using their shikais together and were murked heavily.

Zaraki stopped both their 2 swords with his 1 blade(and one hand i might add), sent Tousen flying into a wall 100 ft away AND flipped Koma over(note, Koma is much bigger then even Zaraki) like he was dead weight =/ Don't pull the Zaraki doesn't know how to fight shit, cause he does. zaraki throwing the two on their asses doesn't show that he knows how to fight, it just means he could kick their asses when they were unreleased. but that doesn't mean he doesn't have skill, his fight with ichigo is proof of that.

i personally think tousen was hiding some stuff/holding back in the fight with zaraki coz that would explain him being able to slice grimjow's arm off when bankai ichigo couldn't only graze him.

But with Manga chad it can go either way. manga chad gets the speed of sonido, which is probably on par with zaraki if not faster. his new shield can block a long-range attack like a shikai getsuga tenshou while zaraki has his bare reiatsu. the left hand can now stop (not just block) a long-range attack and also has the la muerte thing which took out the fully released gatenbien (sp?).

[Jay3205]

oh and i guess the black getsuga tenshou isn't worth shit, just as powerful as the shikai...and all that reiatsu ichigo released before going bankai on byakuya also vanished into thin air.

bankai increases power 5-10 times automatically, so of course it increased his strength. the thing is that power also goes to his body making him able to shunpo so fast especially compared to other bankais and makes his getsuga tenshou more powerful. but that same powerup that ichigo gets from bankai also fucks him up coz his body can't handle all that power for long so he gets 'wiped out by his own reiatsu', just like ogichi said.His reiatsu is compressed into his small form, giving speed. Bankai does not automatically give strength. If it did, then Ikkaku would not have a "power bankai" since everyone would get power. If ichigo was 10x stronger, then he would easily overwhelm Byakuya in a swordfight. Ichigo's reiatsu crushes himself because it remains in his body, giving him speed.

There's also the fact that nobody ever states Ichigo gets physically stronger, and that Grimmjaw notes that only his speed increased.

zaraki throwing the two on their asses doesn't show that he knows how to fight, it just means he could kick their asses when they were unreleased. but that doesn't mean he doesn't have skill, his fight with ichigo is proof of that.

i personally think tousen was hiding some stuff/holding back in the fight with zaraki coz that would explain him being able to slice grimjow's arm off when bankai ichigo couldn't only graze him.Actually, it shows he can swordfight if he is not crazy with excitement. It's like saying "Grimmjaw doesn't know hand to hand combat. He just knows how to beat non-vaizard Ichigo".

I also doubt Tousen was holding back against Zaraki, since he was about to die.

[* J k y]

chad basically will get ripped to peices because his definetly not as powerful...as zaraki..reitsu wise

[Zanga]

bankai increases power 5-10 times automatically, so of course it increased his strength. the thing is that power also goes to his body making him able to shunpo so fast especially compared to other bankais and makes his getsuga tenshou more powerful. but that same powerup that ichigo gets from bankai also fucks him up coz his body can't handle all that power for long so he gets 'wiped out by his own reiatsu', just like ogichi said.

That 5-10 times power increase is put into the normal bankai's *massive* size. Tensa Zangetsu is different since it compressed itself into a tiny form, so that 5-10 power increase goes into his speed. Not his strength.

zaraki throwing the two on their asses doesn't show that he knows how to fight, it just means he could kick their asses when they were unreleased. but that doesn't mean he doesn't have skill, his fight with ichigo is proof of that.

Well people now seem to believe that Zaraki only knows how cut not fight, which is infact not true.

And the point I was trying to make was, Kenpachi OVERPOWERED TWO other captains AT ONCE. They BOTH dived at Zaraki but he stopped both of them with only one hand. The only thing in that battle that could overpower zaraki in that battle was Tengen's bankai form(which could possible overpower anything....). So people who're saying "Ch4ds nuw ubah powaz w1ll ovastr0ng zaragay" are wrong, cause he most likely cant. It would be a battle of raw strength.

That's why I believe it would be one hell of a fight, Chad won't take down Zaraki instantly, nor in under 5 minutes. It wouldn't be a battle like his with Ichigo, because in that fight, it was all about pure spirit power that was being splashed around like a water out of a super soaker.

This is a battle of raw man-ness.

[h3h3h3]

Zanga good points you making me lean to Zaraki. :D

[smach]

His reiatsu is compressed into his small form, giving speed. Bankai does not automatically give strength. If it did, then Ikkaku would not have a "power bankai" since everyone would get power. yes, ikkaku's bankai increases his power only, nothing more, nothing less. that's just how simple his bankai is from what we've seen so far.

edorado makes that clear when he fights ikkaku:
Power! His bankai doesn't augment his kidou, nor does it increase his speed or defensive abilities. It's just a huge amount of power! Pure destructive force!

If ichigo was 10x stronger, then he would easily overwhelm Byakuya in a swordfight. Ichigo's reiatsu crushes himself because it remains in his body, giving him speed. ichigo could be stronger than byakuya, but the fact that his power keeps decreasing due to his body lacking adequate tolerance to sustain his reiatsu is what eventually gave byakuya the upper hand when they were using senkei...then ogichi came...etc.

There's also the fact that nobody ever states Ichigo gets physically stronger, and that Grimmjaw notes that only his speed increased. grimjow only asked a rhetorical question...that may not mean much to some but it's enough for me. ichigo was also able to stop yami's punch one handedly, which i doubt was equal to or weaker than jidanbou's 10-attack thingy.

Actually, it shows he can swordfight if he is not crazy with excitement. It's like saying "Grimmjaw doesn't know hand to hand combat. He just knows how to beat non-vaizard Ichigo". to me swordfighting is basically a cutting technique, which means it's confined to swords only. that's why i don't think kicking tousen and putting komamura on his ass counts as swordfighting. if anything, it's more street and can be classified as a barehanded technique.

but if u guyz are referring to swordfighting as beating your opponent with unreleased zanpakutos or shikais/bankais without using any special techniques then zaraki really beat them.
senkei byakuya vs bankai ichigo would be a good example but shikai byakuya vs shikai renji would be a bad example coz renji has that extension thing going for him and byakuya's zanpakuto is no longer in one piece and doesn't resemble a sword.

I also doubt Tousen was holding back against Zaraki, since he was about to die. yea, so it's either what i said or he got some humongous power boost after going to hueco mundo...either way it would explain him being able to cut off grimjow's arm even though zaraki beat him along with his wimpy-looking bankai.

That 5-10 times power increase is put into the normal bankai's *massive* size. Tensa Zangetsu is different since it compressed itself into a tiny form, so that 5-10 power increase goes into his speed. Not his strength. if reiatsu or any kind of strength goes to your body then it would only make sense that your overall strength would also increase. if it has no effect then i doubt zaraki would still have that cut me attitude as his defense.

Well people now seem to believe that Zaraki only knows how cut not fight, which is infact not true. i not implying that he doesn't know how to fight, my point is throwing one kick and flipping someone over doesn't really show good fighting skills. all he did for the most part in the double team is stand there while they attacked. in fact, the only time we see him move is when in tousen's bankai.

like i said before, the proof of his fighting ability/skill is in the fight with ichigo coz although he wasn't blocking any attacks that ichigo made, he was also able to manouver himself quickly and somewhat effeciently whenever he swung his sword.

And the point I was trying to make was, Kenpachi OVERPOWERED TWO other captains AT ONCE. They BOTH dived at Zaraki but he stopped both of them with only one hand. The only thing in that battle that could overpower zaraki in that battle was Tengen's bankai form(which could possible overpower anything....). now that i totally agree with, hands down.

So people who're saying "Ch4ds nuw ubah powaz w1ll ovastr0ng zaragay" are wrong, cause he most likely cant. It would be a battle of raw strength.

That's why I believe it would be one hell of a fight, Chad won't take down Zaraki instantly, nor in under 5 minutes. It wouldn't be a battle like his with Ichigo, because in that fight, it was all about pure spirit power that was being splashed around like a water out of a super soaker.

This is a battle of raw man-ness.so by raw strength you're refering to physical strength, aka muscles, right? if so then wouldn't chad win since we did see him taking out the 3rd seat officer in shinsui's squad using only one pokemon up into the sky hit?

[Habanero]

From the manga perspective, I'd say Zaraki would get trashed in a few clashes. I don't see any way he could harm Chad, nor defend against his attacks.

[Zanga]

if reiatsu or any kind of strength goes to your body then it would only make sense that your overall strength would also increase. if it has no effect then i doubt zaraki would still have that cut me attitude as his defense.

Reaitsu doesn't make you stronger, but acts more like a sheild. A layer of reaitsu is basically on your skin, stopping attacks that are much too weak. That's why Zaraki has that 'cut me' attitude, because only someone with *more* spirit power than can cut him. Ichigo 5-10 times boost would go into his Ierro(not sure if that's the word. Steel skin basically), making him uncuttable to most.

But Zaraki did not even use spirit power. He just plain and simply overpowered two captains at once. And you can't say they weren't released, because it seems their shikai do not have a form, but a motion or ability, but Zaraki took these two shikai attacks and wasn't even fazed. So basically two captains who both went shikai did nothin against Zaraki.

[T_Ichigo]

That 5-10 times power increase is put into the normal bankai's *massive* size. Tensa Zangetsu is different since it compressed itself into a tiny form, so that 5-10 power increase goes into his speed. Not his strength.

erhmm ...
http://www.animestocks.com/gallery_files/images/Bleach/Screenshots/Episode%20Screenshots/Episode%20114/013_animestocks%5Bcom%5D.jpg
Still sure that Tensa doesn't boost power ? look at the picture and tell me.
Increased speed -> increased amount of power: Highly logical and rational ? isn't it ?

As for the question, currently I would bet Zaraki is the winner since Chad is still too weak.

[DatLatina!]

kenpachi.

[DFlux]

No no, remember, the compression allows him a small, light bankai with "all the destructive power" of bankai. It's the size that allows him the speed, not just the extra power itself.It's the lightweight nature that allows him such a great advantage. But it can still cut, very much so, since compressing into the blade means that the entire thing is basically really dense reishi. I doubt it's the blade itself that leads him when he shunpos around. Basically, people think it's not destructive because it's so small, but it's pretty much kidou based like Tobiume.

Plus, it's just a testament to his immense reiatsu: he has enough to cut right through Yammi, fire GTs, and still go at super speed, at least for a while. That's quite the spillover there.

Anyway, Chad takes this. Because Chad can murder with a swing of his left arm. Zaraki fought a little shikai-powered Ichigo and still only managed a draw. I don't care about him overpowering Tousen, that would just mean that the original Bankai Tousen was not as strong as Bankai Ichigo, which is not unbelievable, imho.

[DatLatina!]

ok u got a point there kenpachi managed a draw

[Zephiroth]

Okay , now lets take a good look at this.
On Bleach episode 126 , Chad was training with Renji , who was suppose to be a few leagues stronger than him since Urahara asked him to train Chad. Now ... Bleach episode 126 of the anime is pretty close to the part where they go to Hueco Mundo , and thats the latest installment to the improvement of Chad's strength. Please also remember that the people at Soul Society are also refining their powers for the battle with Aizen , so don't square them out just yet. Now , Renji is someone who can barely touch Byakuya , who is at Captain level. If you ask me , despite all of Urahara's training , Renji is still leagues away from Byakuya ( if Byakuya is also getting stronger , which i believe he is ). Zaraki is also captains level , and if he is improving strength , Chad would'nt stand a chance against him. Zaraki's riatsu is far stronger than Chad's , so if Chad were to land a fist on Zaraki , Zaraki would barely take damage. Also , i think Zaraki can own Chad without going all out ( removing his eyepatch ) , but if it was needed , Zaraki can remove his eyepatch and go all out on Chad , in otherwords , killing him :Haha
So my literally ... i think Zaraki would own Chad :winking56

[DatLatina!]

wait did bleach 126 come out wait no duh it thur.

[Jay3205]

Still sure that Tensa doesn't boost power ? look at the picture and tell me.
Increased speed -> increased amount of power: Highly logical and rational ? isn't it ?

As for the question, currently I would bet Zaraki is the winner since Chad is still too weak.Well, there's nothing saying shikai Ichigo can't block Yammi's attack. After all, Jidanbou made even larger craters and Ichigo blocked it just the same. Since Ichigo's bankai has the effect of speed, it doesn't mean his power is increased. Byakuya doesn't all of a sudden get physically stronger when he uses bankai, as it's not part of the effect. If it did have any effect on his strength, somebody probably would've said something about it by now. Instead, they only comment on his speed. Perhaps if he did a shunpo strike, it would be stronger, but there's no hint that he it just gives him physical strength any more than Mayuri or Hitsugaya's bankai.

[Habanero]

Physical strenght has very little to do with any event in Bleach anyway. It's the difference in reiatsu that makes you hold still even when opponent way bigger and physically stronger than you comes smashing like a madman.

I'd assume Ichigo gets also some more destructive power out of using his bankai in addition to the speed effect. It just sounds a bit off if he didn't... But, that's just my view :)

[Zephiroth]

Habenero has a point there , since the new Espada have a whole load of Riatsu and thats why Ichigo can barely heart Grimjow. Now if you think of it , i guess perhaps Bankai increases in Riatsu ? Making the user stronger in may ways. So if you think of it ... Zaraki's insane riatsu may prevail after all.

( Also note that speed has been making a big impact on battle results too , Aizen is 10x faster than Ichigo , and he easily managed to give Ichigo several harsh cuts in no time when he blocked Ichigo's attack with his finger )

[Zanga]

Physical strenght has very little to do with any event in Bleach anyway. It's the difference in reiatsu that makes you hold still even when opponent way bigger and physically stronger than you comes smashing like a madman.

I'd assume Ichigo gets also some more destructive power out of using his bankai in addition to the speed effect. It just sounds a bit off if he didn't... But, that's just my view :)

Well i guess that's why Kubo blessed him with his right arm sheild, since Chad doesn't have the crazy reiatsu to stop attacks with.

[Habanero]

He has quite a crazy reserve of reiatsu as far as I can see. But one thing he doesn't have is Ierro, no matter how hollow-like his abilities are, that's why he needs something to block powerful attacks with :winking56

[T_Ichigo]

Well, there's nothing saying shikai Ichigo can't block Yammi's attack. After all, Jidanbou made even larger craters and Ichigo blocked it just the same. Since Ichigo's bankai has the effect of speed, it doesn't mean his power is increased. Byakuya doesn't all of a sudden get physically stronger when he uses bankai, as it's not part of the effect. If it did have any effect on his strength, somebody probably would've said something about it by now. Instead, they only comment on his speed. Perhaps if he did a shunpo strike, it would be stronger, but there's no hint that he it just gives him physical strength any more than Mayuri or Hitsugaya's bankai.

Skip Jidanbou lol, he's just a gateguard.
Well you're right, Ichigo was able to stop Yammi's punch in shikai-mode, but ..
he would hardly be able to cut through Yammi's iron skin if he didn't use Tensa Zangetsu. I believe that was also why he decided to release his bankai =/.
To cut through something iron-like such as Yammi's skin requires alot of strength, that is what I believe, hence: Increased speed -> increased powermass, face it dude it's highly logical.

Since I'm an animewatcher, I would still go for Zaraki since Chad hasn't prove anything yet.

[Jay3205]

^^ Cutting through Yammi's arm and blocking a punch are pretty different. I could stop a steel fist using a sword, but I could not necessarily chop through it.

Anyways, increased speed does not mean increased power. If it did, then all of Ichigo's sword strikes should land with 10x more power, which they do not. Speed is the effect of his bankai, not power. Hitsugaya, Byakuya, and Mayuri don't get 10x physically stronger in bankai. They just get whatever effect their bankai gives, and that's all they get.

Even though Grimmjaw asked a retorical question, it does make it quite clear that Ichigo's power did not improve with his speed, as it wouldn't make sense to even say that if Ichigo's power rose.

[DatLatina!]

chad is strong that when i think his trainin is over he b very strong but ken-chan hes a little dif since hes a shinigami in all cause u know when chad faced 1 of the captians but he lost

[Milan]

I'd say Kenpachi will win.

[DatLatina!]

u think so? wow i cant decide

[smach]

Ichigo was able to stop Yammi's punch in shikai-mode did he really stop it in shikai? to me it looked like he came just in time and yami stopped charging his open hand when he saw ichigo. the first time yami threw a fist was after ichigo went bankai, and then got his hand chopped off.

Anyways, increased speed does not mean increased power. If it did, then all of Ichigo's sword strikes should land with 10x more power, which they do not. Speed is the effect of his bankai, not power. Hitsugaya, Byakuya, and Mayuri don't get 10x physically stronger in bankai. They just get whatever effect their bankai gives, and that's all they get. ichigo's bankai condenses all the power of bankai and keeps it within him and his zanpakuto. reiatsu increases overall strength coz if it didn't then zaraki wouldn't be able to slice off an entire building in one swing, without even touching it. hitsugaya, byakuya, and mayuri do get the effect of their bankai, which is an ice dragon, countless petals, and an oversized caterpillar with a baby's face as its head. they don't get physically stronger coz the power of bankai takes another form and doesn't go into their body.

[Jay3205]

ichigo's bankai condenses all the power of bankai and keeps it within him and his zanpakuto. reiatsu increases overall strength coz if it didn't then zaraki wouldn't be able to slice off an entire building in one swing, without even touching it. hitsugaya, byakuya, and mayuri do get the effect of their bankai, which is an ice dragon, countless petals, and an oversized caterpillar with a baby's face as its head. they don't get physically stronger coz the power of bankai takes another form and doesn't go into their body.And Ichigo's ability is speed, not power. It compresses reiatsu to give speed. That's the stated ability of it, so there's not much reason to believe it gives power (at least not much if any) since nobody ever says anything about it, and there are comments supporting the fact that only his speed increases. If you look at the actual evidence, there is nothing saying his physical power increases... it's only speculation. Ichigo would severely own Byakuya in a swordfight if he got 10x stronger physically, which didn't happen. At the least, Byakuya's sword should've been broken several times since Byakuya does not get physically stronger and the reiatsu of his bankai is divided among hundreds of swords.

At the minimum, if Ichigo's strength does increase, it is apparently not enough for anybody ever to comment on it, so the increase must not help him much if at all.

[smach]

And Ichigo's ability is speed, not power. It compresses reiatsu to give speed. That's the stated ability of it, so there's not much reason to believe it gives power (at least not much if any) since nobody ever says anything about it, and there are comments supporting the fact that only his speed increases. If you look at the actual evidence, there is nothing saying his physical power increases... it's only speculation. an increase in strength/reiatsu should also improve his abilities coz if not then ichigo shouldn't have been able to cut zaraki just coz he got more reiatsu from zangetsu, and zaraki shouldn't even be a captain or much of a threat at all.

Ichigo would severely own Byakuya in a swordfight if he got 10x stronger physically, which didn't happen. At the least, Byakuya's sword should've been broken several times since Byakuya does not get physically stronger and the reiatsu of his bankai is divided among hundreds of swords.

At the minimum, if Ichigo's strength does increase, it is apparently not enough for anybody ever to comment on it, so the increase must not help him much if at all.ichigo gets that power of bankai in his body but can't really use/control/tolerate all of it, which is why ogichi and vaizard powers come into play later on.

hey i got a question: does this have anything to do with ichigo blocking yami's punch?

Well, there's nothing saying shikai Ichigo can't block Yammi's attack. After all, Jidanbou made even larger craters and Ichigo blocked it just the same. jidanbou didn't make any craters, he swung his axe at ichigo. he ripped the tile-like surface off the ground in ss when he was isolating ichigo and when he took his last swing at ichigo before taking out the second axe

[Jay3205]

an increase in strength/reiatsu should also improve his abilities coz if not then ichigo shouldn't have been able to cut zaraki just coz he got more reiatsu from zangetsu, and zaraki shouldn't even be a captain or much of a threat at all.A pure increase in reiatsu just gives overall power. However, Ichigo's bankai just doesn't give reiatsu. It channels the reiatsu and compresses it to give speed, which is why it just doesn't make his getsuga tenshou 10x bigger or 10x physically stronger.

ichigo gets that power of bankai in his body but can't really use/control/tolerate all of it, which is why ogichi and vaizard powers come into play later on. He has a ton of reiatsu in his body, but that doesn't mean physical power.

jidanbou didn't make any craters, he swung his axe at ichigo. he ripped the tile-like surface off the ground in ss when he was isolating ichigo and when he took his last swing at ichigo before taking out the second axeDidn't Ichigo make a crater when he blocked?

There's still the point that nobody ever mentions Ichigo's strength increasing through bankai. If nobody ever mentions it, even when his ability is laid out for the readers through Byakuya, then why should I assume he has it?

[DatLatina!]

i think kenpachi is the winner i think

[T_Ichigo]

I could stop a steel fist using a sword, but I could not necessarily chop through it.
You can't stop it without power. It doesn't matte if you you've got speed, without power you would just being pulled back 10 meters away. But with power you can both block it, and cut through it just like Ichigo did.

He has a ton of reiatsu in his body, but that doesn't mean physical power.
That means potential, if he one day is able to completely control his reiatsu, then probably his physical power will massively increase as well.

There's still the point that nobody ever mentions Ichigo's strength increasing through bankai. If nobody ever mentions it, even when his ability is laid out for the readers through Byakuya, then why should I assume he has it?
Acutally I think it has been mentioned once, which was also the first time Ichigo released it.
"A bankai which makes you fight with full force" recognize that quote ?

[Jay3205]

You can't stop it without power. It doesn't matte if you you've got speed, without power you would just being pulled back 10 meters away. But with power you can both block it, and cut through it just like Ichigo did.That's not the point. The point is that blocking an object and cutting through it are completely different and require different amounts of "hardness" of the weapon. I could block a steel bat using a steel sword, but I couldn't necessarily chop through it.

That means potential, if he one day is able to completely control his reiatsu, then probably his physical power will massively increase as well.That will be because his useable reiatsu will increase, and all his stats would increase. However, that would be just because his reiatsu increased, not due to the effect of his bankai.

Acutally I think it has been mentioned once, which was also the first time Ichigo released it.
"A bankai which makes you fight with full force" recognize that quote ?A bankai that is small enough to be wielded like a normal sword allows you to use it to its fullest potential/force. It doesn't mean his strength increased.

Byakuya's bankai is so huge that he can not hit the opponent with its "full force" since maybe 200,000 petals will hit, a few more will add weight behind the attack, and the other hundreds of millions will essentially be doing nothing but floating around or hitting rocks. However, when Ichigo with bankai attacks, whatever he hits receives the full force of the attack... power is not wasted on tons of petals where only 1% of them can actually hit the opponent at any given time.

If Ichigo received a notable strength increase, he should cut through Byakuya's defense since Byakuya's entire bankai does not block while Ichigo's entire bankai (just his sword) is attacking.

[DatLatina!]

I noticed though how come a lot of people like usin kenpachi for comparing

[h3h3h3]

Zaraki > Renji > Chad.

[Undying]

Renji hasn't beaten anyone powerful in this arc. Chad's new upgrade gave him enough power to completely trample on a Privaron. Renji didn't even do that.

I'd say Chad.

[suburbanhell]

Kenpachi. Unless Chad finds a way to get MUCH, MUCH stronger.

[Undying]

He already did, so there.

[leprousharry]

Well... I think Chad is a bit slower than Kenpachi. Kenpachi might not have shunpo, but he was still fast, in his fight against Ichigo. Although, he would probably say : "Hit me first!" and "Bam!", Chad would have used his "Back hand of the pimp..." Thus, Kenpachi would be screwed, essentialy because he's stupid.

[Undying]

He was faster than noob Ichigo. Not much of an achievement.

[suburbanhell]

He already did, so there.

Well I don't know that yet. :P

[Undying]

Your luck.

[h3h3h3]

Bad luck.

[DatLatina!]

chado,chado

[Infinite]

Chad takes this one. I think he is faster then Kepaichi, and possibly stronger too. Kenpachi wouldn't really be able to keep up...

[koolspot]

Zaraki has shyumpoo so is faster than Chad. And if we are talking about manga i still doubt it...
So Zaraki Wins this one for me... And it is not just about speed, it is about power.

[Domhnall]

Zaraki > Renji > Chad.

Shi kai Ichigo = Zaraki

Manga Chad would rip Shi kai Ichigo apart.

[koolspot]

I don't wanna spoil but even in the future Chad is not that big deal, Kubo just want the people to be proud of him for a bit.

[Undying]

Zaraki has Shunpo? Now that is noose to me. When did he learn anything beside Zanjutsu?

Future manga Chad no big deal? That is knot true. Future manga Chad will hang Zaraki on the wall. He pwn'd an opponent that is stronger than Shikai Ichigo, and Shikai Ichigo was on the level with Zaraki.

[DatLatina!]

Oh yea I totally forgot about shunpo

[h3h3h3]

We actually don't know if he can shunpo, he has never needed to use it.

[Lex]

Zaraki of course! Why even ask?

[jonat3]

We actually don't know if he can shunpo, he has never needed to use it.

I think it's safe to say he can't. He doesn't seem like the type for it anyways.

[leprousharry]

Sado Yasutora one-hit-killed a Privaron Espada, wich is better than a Numeros, wich is about the power of Ikkaku Madarame, wich I think would beat Zaraki Kenpachi, when in Bankai (the same power he used against the Numeros).

[Domhnall]

We actually don't know if he can shunpo, he has never needed to use it.

Even if he could Chad was faster than a priverion espada who was using sonido.

Chad has a fantastic defence, he blocked the priverion espada's big released attack (which is at least on par with any of Zaraki's sword attacks) with his Right Arm of the Giant and he stopped the espada's strongest attack with his Left Arm of the Devil before he beat him in one hit. So he also has the strength to seriously injure Zaraki.

Now remember, kids. 100% Zaraki (no eyepatch) = Shi kai Ichigo

Manga Chad beat an opponent who is much, much stronger than shi kai Ichigo without breaking a sweat (once he was at full power).

[sweeter]

IMO, Shikai Ichigo = Bankai Ichigo in terms of power, but Shikai Ichigo < Bankai Ichigo in terms of speed and special technique, making it Shikai Ichigo < Bankai Ichigo overall.

Shikai Ichigo's reiatsu is being underrated just because he beat Zaraki with it. Zaraki's raw strength is not to be taken lightly, even by the Gotei 13 (Ch. 120, p. 9). Also, Shikai Ichigo, in the final reiatsu clash with Zaraki, was drawing power from both Zangetsu (Ch. 113, p. 10) and Ogihci (Ch. 112, p. 2 and Ch. 116, p. 17) while Zaraki's strength was being diminished (Ch. 113, p. 8).

On topic, Chad would most probably win this, assuming Zaraki has not improved since the SS Arc.

Chad has improved endurance (Ch. 259), new techniques--El Directo which 1-shotted an Arrancar (Ch. 244, p. 1) and La Muerte which 1-shotted a Privaron Espada (Ch. 261, p. 18), awakened Brazo Derecho del Gigante (Ch. 260, p. 4) AND Brazo Izquierdo del Diablo (Ch. 261, p. 1).

Even if Chad's power is somehow amplified because of Hueco Mundo, I think it would still be sufficient to take out Zaraki, though not too easily.

(:

[h3h3h3]

I think it's safe to say he can't. He doesn't seem like the type for it anyways.
Safe to say isn't enough unfortunately. There's been already many surprises in bleach. It's very highly possible Zaraki manages to shunpo. PS. Guys don't bother putting me to spoilz I read manga when it gets to Amine.

[jonat3]

Safe to say isn't enough unfortunately. There's been already many surprises in bleach. It's very highly possible Zaraki manages to shunpo. PS. Guys don't bother putting me to spoilz I read manga when it gets to Amine.

Ok, you got a point there. Still, it's quite an assumption to assume he has shunpou. If he's never done it, you can't assume he has it. No way to know for sure.

[sweeter]

^^ I'm pretty sure Zaraki used shunpo in Ch. 103. Although Zaraki's shunpo surely cannot be compared to, say, Byakuya's.

(:

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

Both of them have a threesome with Yachiru.

[jonat3]

^^ I'm pretty sure Zaraki used shunpo in Ch. 103. Although Zaraki's shunpo surely cannot be compared to, say, Byakuya's.

(:

That's not shunpou. It's his normal speed (which is still pretty fast). Ichigo was under an illusion that went on for an undetermined amount of time. More than enough for Zaraki to close in without being noticed.

[sweeter]

^^ Okay, if you say so.

(: