Sasuke vs Kisame [Manga]

[Zephiroth]

Who would win a fight between Sasuke and Kisame ? I think it would be a tie between Sasuke and Itachi but what about Kisame ? Kisame seems alot weaker ( which he probaly is ) and we've never seen the full extent of Sasuke's new powers yet , so ... who do you think would win an all-out fight between Sasuke and Kisame ?

[Draco]

That is hard to tell. Kisame has the largest amount of chakra through out the akatski, on the other hand sasuke did something that nobody else could do (kill orochimaru). That is tough, so i say sasuke because of the fact that he has the sharingan on his side.

[Seff]

Kisame at 70% chakra held off two jounins and two chuunins with ease for a long time. Sasuke managed to kill a dying orochimaru in single combat.

Kisame gmv.

[Zephiroth]

Its true that Kisame has the highest amount of chakra ( that just brough Neji to my mind xD , since he can easily break Kisame's huge chakra ) but Orochimaru managed to beat Naruto at 4 tails ( and that was a whole load of chakra ) while Sasuke easily disposed of Orochimaru.

[GoldenFire]

Actually I think it was at 30% not 70%.

I'm sure that itachi is stronger than kisame, but a fight between sasuke and kisame would be interesting. I would probably say Sasuke, because he has the sharingan on his side and has shown he can deal with large chakras like the kyuubi earlier on. He was also hiding his abilities from oro earlier. But its still very difficult to say, but because itachi is stronger than kisame I'd say Sasuke also has a good chance.

[Gettles]

I don't think Sasuke has much a chance, beating Orochimaru hardly counts as a show of strength as he was pretty much dead already, it was like beating up everyone in a cancer ward and than boasting about how you took on 15 guys at once. Kisime on the other hand has been established as a legitimate powerhouse.
In fact, in a one on one fight, I think Kisame has the advantage against Itachi even.

So outside of "OMG The Sharaigan got another sudden power up for no apparent reason!" coming into play again Kisame should take it easy.

[Zephiroth]

But if Kisame was doing a one-on-one fight all Itachi has to do is look him in eye. Also , Itachi can cast illusions with a single finer. If Kisame got too far off , Itachi can just use Amaterasu right ? And now that Sasuke has the same Sharingan ... he can do that too.

[ninjabot]

Actually, Mangekyou Sharingan is needed for Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Sasuke only has 3rd level Sharingan, because he didn't kill his best friend Naruto, which is the catylist to gain Mangekyou. Then again, Kusanagi swords are rumored to cut through anything in the Naruto-verse, so Samehada wouldn't pose a problem for Sasuke. Kisame's uber chakra won't help him overpower Sasuke if he can't lay a finger on him because of his Sharingan. Then their's the fact that Chidori Nagashi paralyzes multiple opponents at once, meaning Mizu Bunshin is a waste.

Sasuke wins.

[6thEspada]

i think sasuke would win just for the simple fact that he can manipulate lightning chakra which obviously is waters weakness and kisame's strength but this would be a good match though since kisame has a huge amount of chakra and also kisame has yet to show the full extent of his abilities and neither has sasuke so who knows what they are capable of

[Milan]

I think Sasuke would win this one. It woud still be a cool fight, I hope it happens sometime.

[Seff]

Erm, no, orochimaru didn't beat four-tails Naruto. He got his ass whooped, and three demon gates broken, before Yammato stopped Naruto.

[Gettles]

But if Kisame was doing a one-on-one fight all Itachi has to do is look him in eye. Also , Itachi can cast illusions with a single finer. If Kisame got too far off , Itachi can just use Amaterasu right ? And now that Sasuke has the same Sharingan ... he can do that too.

Easier said than done. If anything, Kakashi vs Zazuba proved that a good mist nin can cause a lot of trouble for the Sharingan, the heavy fog and water clones can make connecting with Amaretsu and Tsukuyomi a very difficult task, especially when coupled with Itachi being pretty much blind. Also the fact that he can only use those two attacks a very limited amount of times while Kisame will be able to drain his charka even further means it would be a very uphill battle for Itachi.

[.Rik-uh-shey]

sasuke would win since kishimoto gave him the one technique that cant be beat and totally wtfpwns all enemies. the sharingan...

[shouta_azuki]

sasuke would win because he has mangekyou sharingan

[Kenta]

kisame himself is not that strong. he is weaker than zabuza, but his cheapass sword sucks up chakra which he feeds on thus the reason he has huge amount of chakra. sasuke will use the eye jutsu on him and win, just as how he won against orochimaru.

[kujahlegend]

Kisame isn't weaker than Zabuza -.-
And Sasuke probably doesn't have mangekyo yet...

[Project #22329]

Lets analyze....

Kisame and Itachi together would have a hard time fighting Jyraya...one of the legendary sanin. Which also fought Orichimaru together with Tsunade, of course 4 eyes (Kabuto) helped Orichimaru...

Sasuke alone defeated Orichimaru INSIDE Oruchimaru's soul exchange world or something like that...i dont remember...did he beat Kabuto or just left...?

Itachi? yes he could deff defeat Oruchimaru, he once threw him out of Akatsuki using sharingan.

Anyway, I think it's clear that he would have enough strength to beat that freaking fish, i dont like Kisame.....

You may argue that Kisame is a water based ninja and Uchiha clan is a fire based...which puts Sasuke at disadvantage...But the jutsus could be copied...besides...Sasuke mastered Sharingan

Well thats strickly my opinion
I might be wrong XD


It would be an interesting battle to watch but as you know, they dont have interest in each other.

[Seff]

Sasuke does not have mangekyou. He has the final form of the normal sharingan.

Sasuke beat a dying Orochimaru. Big deal. I'm going to walk into a care home, kill some people, then boast about it. NOT.

Kisame, on the other hand, held his own for a long time against a jounin, two chuunins, and a special jounin with six gates open. He did this while at 70% chakra.

In addition, Kisame knows about the sharingan, and he knows that it can't do jack sh*t if you don't look at it-Sasuke isn't a genjutsu whiz like Itachi.

Also, the only lightning based move sasuke has is chidori and it's variants, which takes time to charge, so Sasuke's fire jutsus are at a disadvantage.

[cursed kyuubi]

kisame himself is not that strong. he is weaker than zabuza, but his cheapass sword sucks up chakra which he feeds on thus the reason he has huge amount of chakra. sasuke will use the eye jutsu on him and win, just as how he won against orochimaru.you shouldnt underestimate kisame because we havent seen the extent of his powers and plus if he was weak he would probably benn paired with zetsu but instead he is with itachi an uchiha so he probably will know how to evade the sharingan.and for the orochimaru part once suigetsu was freed he said that everyone wanted to kill orochimaru but sasuke had a bigger chance because he trusted sasuke more so if he didnt he would have probably ended up like suigetsu or juugo

[Project #22329]

Sasuke does not have mangekyou. He has the final form of the normal sharingan.

Sasuke beat a dying Orochimaru. Big deal. I'm going to walk into a care home, kill some people, then boast about it. NOT.

Kisame, on the other hand, held his own for a long time against a jounin, two chuunins, and a special jounin with six gates open. He did this while at 70% chakra.

In addition, Kisame knows about the sharingan, and he knows that it can't do jack sh*t if you don't look at it-Sasuke isn't a genjutsu whiz like Itachi.

Also, the only lightning based move sasuke has is chidori and it's variants, which takes time to charge, so Sasuke's fire jutsus are at a disadvantage.

Mastered sharingan = 3 pupils....

Maybe Oruchimaru was dying, but he is still a stong figure.

Gai's team is mostly close and taijutsu combat...Kisame a ninjutsu user has a huge advantage.

Sasuke by now is able to summon...
Besides it's obvious that Kisame is going to be beaten, probably even by a weaker figure than Sasuke....

[Gettles]

Besides it's obvious that Kisame is going to be beaten, probably even by a weaker figure than Sasuke....

That doesn't mean anything the fact is just about every chacter is going to beaten. Kisame, Itachi, Sasuke everyone outside of Naruto with his main character protection, every character will most likely be beaten by someone weaker than them under questionable circumstances.

[GoldenFire]

Kisame, on the other hand, held his own for a long time against a jounin, two chuunins, and a special jounin with six gates open. He did this while at 70% chakra.


He was using 30% of his chakra in that body not 70, which would make him even stronger.

Also Kisame has admitted that itachi is stronger than him, so the question is how far away Sasuke is from itachi. We haven't seen either of their full powers so this discussion is mostly speculation. We know Kisame has a massive amount of chakra and we have yet to see him fight at his full power, likewise with itachi and sasuke. All we know is that they are all very strong.

If sasuke is close to itachi's level which I think he is then i would say sasuke is stronger, but Kisame definitely wont go down without doing damage to sasuke.

[Seff]

Mastered sharingan = 3 pupils....
Maybe Oruchimaru was dying, but he is still a stong figure.
Gai's team is mostly close and taijutsu combat...Kisame a ninjutsu user has a huge advantage.
Sasuke by now is able to summon...
Besides it's obvious that Kisame is going to be beaten, probably even by a weaker figure than Sasuke....

Big difference between Mangekyou and 3 pupil sharingan.
Orochimaru didn't put up much of a fight either. He basically turned into a snake and got ownt by the sharingan. That's what killed him, not sasuke's superior combat abilitiy. And because Kisame isn't likely to go taijutsu on Sasuke, the Sharingan will do little.
Also, oh wow, summon :rolleyes.
Kisame is a kage-level ninja, i have no doubt he could perform a king/boss/queen level summon. Sasuke dosen't have enough chakra to do that.



By allowing Orochimaru to "die", Kishimoto has actually been clever.
-Lets Sasuke go after Itachi and meet up with Naruto.
-Because Oro WAS dying, there isn't a sudden massive jump in Sasukes power's.
-Because Oro isn't teachnically dead, he can come back.

[Project #22329]

@Dark
"Big difference between Mangekyou and 3 pupil sharingan. "
I know....

you really like Kisame dont you?
:D

By what I've seen so far, I mean I've seen alot of Kisame and his jutsu. I've also seen alot of Sasuke's....from what Sasuke showed already...He's gotten stronger but from just this, no he cant beat Kisame.

But I still think Sasuke has a chance at beating Kisame...
I'm not saying you're wrong, I like Sasuke more, and think he's got more crazy shit comming up.

Like I said it's my opinion.....

[kujahlegend]

Kisame and Itachi know Sasuke killed Orochimaru. Neither of them showed any kind of concern, even when they learnt that they were the likely targets for "Hedi".

At the moment we can only say that Itachi + Kisame are confident that Sasuke's team is still at a disadvantage against them. At best I think Sasuke will only be on par with Kisame in combat capabilities, and until he develops Mangekyo he still can't touch Itachi.

We must remember that Kisame, having been Itachi's partner for a long time, will have seen the Sharingan and even Mangekyo being used alot. From this he is likely to have a great understanding of its powers and have a few methods to counter them.

[Seff]

Nope, i don't like Kisame. Especially in the anime, his new seiyu killed him off bigtime for me.

However, the fact is, Sasuke will get torn apart by Kisame's wide, area of effect water Jutsus, and close combat prowess (unless you're suggesting Sasuke is better in taijutsu than Gai) and he does not have enough chakra to pull off a boss-level summon like naruto, and invariably, Kisame (who is stated to have an enormous chakra) can.

In addition, it is a common misconception that Sasuke has mangekyou. He does not have mangekyou, and, unless he pulls a kakashi, will never get it, because he would have to kill Naruto, who is protected by plot-no-jutsu.

[Kay™]

yes area of effect water...
you forgot sasuke got static field? to think logically water conduct to water thus kisame will be shock plus sharingan can see kisame movement...all we know bout kisame technique is water and his sword that can absorb chakra i suppose

[Gettles]

yes area of effect water...
you forgot sasuke got static field? to think logically water conduct to water thus kisame will be shock plus sharingan can see kisame movement...all we know bout kisame technique is water and his sword that can absorb chakra i suppose

Wasn't it stated that Water>Lightning> Rock because elemental advantages in Naruto are completely insane Naruto.

[Seff]

yes area of effect water...
you forgot sasuke got static field? to think logically water conduct to water thus kisame will be shock plus sharingan can see kisame movement...all we know bout kisame technique is water and his sword that can absorb chakra i suppose

To electrocute an area of water about the size of what Kisame pulled on Gai, you would need a lot more than Chidori. Also, If sasuke is stuck in the water, using Chidori would just damage Kisame. It wouldn't kill any sharks or stop sasuke from drowning.

And the sharingan dosen't really help against a waterfall or a sneak attack :/

[Undying]

Um... (fake) Kisame held against a powerful Jounin, a couple Chuunin (Tenten and Lee were Chuunin right?), and another newb Jounin without much trouble until Gai took out his Gate moves.

Now, provided, it was only a fake, and like Itachi demonstrated not really powerful (Naruto and Kakashi beating Itachi? When Hell freezes over and then lights up again). So, let's say 30%-70% Kisame held against all of them without much trouble until the gates.

Sasuke so far hasn't shown anything as impressive... beating a sick Orichimaru (rejection of the body weakens him, apparently...), beating some unknwon ninja...

Kisame wins.

[ninjabot]

Yeah, Kisame wins, because beating 2 Jounin and 2 Chuunin is waaaaay more noteworthy than defeating 1000 Jounin or Chuunin (or mixture thereof). Without breaking a sweat I might add. Or killing them, which has to be harder. The fact that Sasuke doesn't have Mangekyou is a blessing in disguise, because Itachi can pull off what...2 mangekyou techniques before needing to rest? Sasuke will be able to spam katon's or Chidori versions of his choosing thanks to the curse seal giving him that chakra boost.

And the way elements work in naruto is: Lightning beats Earth...Fire beats Wind...Water beats Fire...and I think Wind beats Lightning and Earth beats Water.

Also, I'm not sure, but I think Juugo will be able to counteract the CS2's aftereffects, letting him use his full power with no adverse reactions. Speculation.

The only things that would allow Kisame to win this fight would be if:

1: He was fast enough to outpace 3rd lvl. Sharingan (no).
2: Sasuke's CS2 is the same strength that it was back when Sasuke beat Naruto (which I doubt).
3:Sasuke doesn't go mini-Itachi on him and starts mind-raping him with Genjutsu.
4:Sasuke doesn't copy any of Kisame's jutsus (send water sharks after him, see how he likes it)
5:Kusanagi doesn't cut through Samehada, as it should.
6:Orochimaru didn't teach him any uber jutsus (which we already know he did).

So basically don't look at Sasuke's eyes, don't use taijutsu against him, don't use ninjutsu against him, don't let Sasuke perform handseals, and don't use his Samehada against him, then Kisame TOTALLY wins.

[Gettles]

Yeah, Kisame wins, because beating 2 Jounin and 2 Chuunin is waaaaay more noteworthy than defeating 1000 Jounin or Chuunin (or mixture thereof). Without breaking a sweat I might add. Or killing them, which has to be harder.

We have no information about the full number, ranks, or even if they were even ninja.
Besides, faceless cannon fodder ninja's don't count.

The fact that Sasuke doesn't have Mangekyou is a blessing in disguise, because Itachi can pull off what...2 mangekyou techniques before needing to rest? Sasuke will be
able to spam katon's or Chidori versions of his choosing thanks to the curse seal giving him that chakra boost.

All this while Kisame constantly is on the attack and draining his charaka.

And the way elements work in naruto is: Lightning beats Earth...Fire beats Wind...Water beats Fire...and I think Wind beats Lightning and Earth beats Water.

So outside of Chidori, Sasuke is in a lot of trouble.

Also, I'm not sure, but I think Juugo will be able to counteract the CS2's aftereffects, letting him use his full power with no adverse reactions. Speculation.

As you said, speculation.
The only things that would allow Kisame to win this fight would be if:
1: He was fast enough to outpace 3rd lvl. Sharingan (no).
2: Sasuke's CS2 is the same strength that it was back when Sasuke beat Naruto (which I doubt).
3:Sasuke doesn't go mini-Itachi on him and starts mind-raping him with Genjutsu.
4:Sasuke doesn't copy any of Kisame's jutsus (send water sharks after him, see how he likes it)
5:Kusanagi doesn't cut through Samehada, as it should.
6:Orochimaru didn't teach him any uber jutsus (which we already know he did).
So basically don't look at Sasuke's eyes, don't use taijutsu against him, don't use ninjutsu against him, don't let Sasuke perform handseals, and don't use his Samehada against him, then Kisame TOTALLY wins.

1. Your right, but again bringing in the thick fog limits Sasuke's effectiveness as unless he stands still and waits for the strike, he is just rushing blindly with no knowledge of if he will even hit something.
2. Yes, Sasuke is stronger. But how can you say that Kisame isn't still stronger?
3. Have we ever seen him do something like that? I am believe "random sharingan power ups that haven't happened yet" shouldn't count.
4. Kisame justsus are still more effective.
5. What makes you say this? Sasuke doesn't have the legit Kusanagi, just a replica and neither has even been shown to do something of that nature.
6. Just knowing the jutsu isn't enough. If he doesn't know when to use them he is still screwed.

[ninjabot]

Well, excuse me for assuming they would send more than "canon fodder" to catch a Sannin and the last of the Uchiha clan.

1: That makes sense about the mist, got nothing for that one, aside from the fact that Snakes sense heat. Who needs to see when he can let his snakes sense out Kisame the same way Kakashi's dogs did Zabuza? Sniff him out, then bind him long enough for a Chidori to finish the job.

2: Point well made. He could very well be stronger. You've made one point.

3: No, we've never seen Sasuke trap someone inside of an alternate dimension that exists within a Genjutsu...aside from Orochimaru...and Naruto. Now that he has "control" of Orochimaru's world, what's to say he can't use Orochimaru's Genjutsu against Kisame? Now that he knows how it works and how to counter it, he must be able to replicate it aswell. Not to mention what he did to Naruto. Simply don't allow Kisame to use his huge chakra, and Sasuke will have no problems with those advantageous water jutsus.

4:More effective in the sense that Sasuke uses katon jutsu? Another point I happened to take lightly. Rest assured that won't be the gamebreaker here though, considering Sasuke will just "turn off" Kisame's chakra the same as he did to Naruto.

5: It has been stated that the Kusanagi cuts through anything, but sense it couldn't cut through Enma (still damaged it) or 4 tail Naruto's chakra skin (that's 4 tail Naruto though), I could see why you might think that Sasuke's, because it's a replica, would be weaker. We have to take his chakra manipulation into consideration though, and how it increases the sword's destructive ability. I guess I could consider this Kisame's advantage...

6: Not knowing when to use them? Like, assuming Sasuke wasn't Jounin level already, maybe you'd be right. Assuming he didn't have prior training from a Sannin. Assuming he wasn't already one of the best ninja in his class before leaving Konoha. You see an opening, you attack: textbook strategy.

[Undying]

1: That makes sense about the mist, got nothing for that one, aside from the fact that Snakes sense heat. Who needs to see when he can let his snakes sense out Kisame the same way Kakashi's dogs did Zabuza? Sniff him out, then bind him long enough for a Chidori to finish the job.
I don't think Kisame is dumb enough to let himself be caught in it. But this is mere speculation, we cannot agree on this, we can just go on inventing new scenarios, so it's nothing.
3: No, we've never seen Sasuke trap someone inside of an alternate dimension that exists within a Genjutsu...aside from Orochimaru...and Naruto. Now that he has "control" of Orochimaru's world, what's to say he can't use Orochimaru's Genjutsu against Kisame? Now that he knows how it works and how to counter it, he must be able to replicate it aswell. Not to mention what he did to Naruto. Simply don't allow Kisame to use his huge chakra, and Sasuke will have no problems with those advantageous water jutsus.

Mist.
4:More effective in the sense that Sasuke uses katon jutsu? Another point I happened to take lightly. Rest assured that won't be the gamebreaker here though, considering Sasuke will just "turn off" Kisame's chakra the same as he did to Naruto.
Whoever said Sasuke can turn off anyone's chakra beside Naruto's? You're assuming it, because Sasuke turned off Kyuubi. Since Kisame doesn't have Kyuubi, there's no reason to assume Sasuke can turn him off. And also, water beats fire, so Sasuke is left with only the Chidori, and that's not overly effective.
5: It has been stated that the Kusanagi cuts through anything, but sense it couldn't cut through Enma (still damaged it) or 4 tail Naruto's chakra skin (that's 4 tail Naruto though), I could see why you might think that Sasuke's, because it's a replica, would be weaker. We have to take his chakra manipulation into consideration though, and how it increases the sword's destructive ability. I guess I could consider this Kisame's advantage...
So far what we've seen is Sasuke making his sword into a battery. And as you've said, Sasuke's Kusanagi is a mere replica, and we haven't seen it cut through anything beside humans yet.
6: Not knowing when to use them? Like, assuming Sasuke wasn't Jounin level already, maybe you'd be right. Assuming he didn't have prior training from a Sannin. Assuming he wasn't already one of the best ninja in his class before leaving Konoha. You see an opening, you attack: textbook strategy.
Jounin level in power, yes. In battel expreience and knowledge, no proof so far.

[Jay3205]

I'm betting Sasuke would win. He can already apparently do shape + nature manipulation, which is apparently makes for some uber jutsu. Also, he does have the training of a san-nin and is considered a genius.

I'm guessing that he would get beaten, until all of sudden he busts out "that jutsu". Since Sasuke probably won't be learning many new advanced techniques, I'm guessing his "that jutsu" is something that can match Naruto's fuuton rasengan, in which case Kisame would be screwed if he got hit by it.

[Seff]

Ok, well, it's like this...a 30% chakra Kisame can match Gai, Lee, Neji, and Tenten in combat all at the same time, and he fought evenley in close against Gai until Gai opened the gates.

(can i just add Gai needed to open six gates to finish off a weakened Kisame.)

So, you're suggesting that Sasuke could open all 8 gates? Because if Gai needed 6 to kill Kisame at 30% chakra (might have been 70, i forget) then that's what sasukue will need, unless you're implying that sasuke has better taijutsu than gai -_-

[Undying]

Ok, well, it's like this...a 30% chakra Kisame can match Gai, Lee, Neji, and Tenten in combat all at the same time, and he fought evenley in close against Gai until Gai opened the gates.

(can i just add Gai needed to open six gates to finish off a weakened Kisame.)

So, you're suggesting that Sasuke could open all 8 gates? Because if Gai needed 6 to kill Kisame at 30% chakra (might have been 70, i forget) then that's what sasukue will need, unless you're implying that sasuke has better taijutsu than gai -_-
It was 70%, not 30%... the leader said "we still need 30% of your chakra" (if I remember right... somebody who actually cares please verify). In any event, those clones/copies/whatever they are weren't as powerful as the original one... Itachi actually lost to Kakashi and Naruto, of all people. Itachi is so higher above them, this is not even funny.

[Seff]

Wikipedia says Kisame at Itachi "clones" had only 30% of their chakra.

[Undying]

Might be a misinterpertations, since I do remember the scanlation being "we need 30%", but meh.

[kujahlegend]

well actually, I thought the AL said he still needed 30% of Kisame's powers oO
Didn't say anything about Itachi's :/

So maybe, the clone could be anywhere between 1% - 70% of Kisame's full power.
And dunno about Itachi.

[Seff]

he needed 30% of Kisames power to make the clone. Therefore, the Kisame fighting team Gai was at 30%. Neji still commented on how much chakra Kisame had.

(from wikipedia.)

[Juujika]

Might be a misinterpertations, since I do remember the scanlation being "we need 30%", but meh.
The leader needed 30% of kisames chakra for the sealing process, then take in the fact kisame used a jutsu that used someone elses body which greatly reduces the jutsu list someone is able to do with the clone since the chakra amount is horribly reduced.

So even if it was 70% of his chakra that went into the clone, which i doubt it was it probably was about 30% of kisames chakra that the clone was able to use for jutsu purposes. Kisames most powerful jutsu's werent able to be used at all, same with itachi in the fight between naruto and kakashi. When itachi was escaping from the first attempt on naruto he used some jutsu with black fire which i think was extremely powerful but with the clone he couldnt even attempt it.

[ninjabot]

Both statements could be right I believe. If 30 percent of their chakra went into the clones, then another 30 percent could be placed into the Jinchuuriki extraction jutsu, leaving 40 percent with them for...whatever.

Also, I'm not suggesting Sasuke's taijutsu is better than Gai's. I'm suggesting he's more powerful than Gai. Compare Gai's 6 gates to OTK Naruto during his fight with Sasuke. It's barely as destructive as that was, and back then CS2 Sasuke was equal if not greater than that in power. Now that Sasuke's grown, well...there you go.

Waitasec...mist? That's what's gonna save Kisame from Sasuke? Mist? Kisame isn't dumb enough to fall for Sasuke's snake trap, but Sasuke's supposed to be dumb enough to fall for a jutsu he's already experienced before?

[Undying]

Also, I'm not suggesting Sasuke's taijutsu is better than Gai's. I'm suggesting he's more powerful than Gai. Compare Gai's 6 gates to OTK Naruto during his fight with Sasuke. It's barely as destructive as that was, and back then CS2 Sasuke was equal if not greater than that in power. Now that Sasuke's grown, well...there you go.
Gai may very well held back most of his destructive power. Or his attack has far less area effect that Naruto's. It still doesn't change the fact that it may cause more damage to the bodyof the attatcked. Simply because it has no explosions around it doesn't mean it doesn't kill. Sasuke isn't made of rock, after all.

Waitasec...mist? That's what's gonna save Kisame from Sasuke? Mist? Kisame isn't dumb enough to fall for Sasuke's snake trap, but Sasuke's supposed to be dumb enough to fall for a jutsu he's already experienced before?
Yes, mist. Kisame can simply cover the area in mist, completely reducing Sasuke's sharingan efficiency. After all, it was KAKASHI who had his sharingan back then, not Sasuke. Sasuke is probably unaware that mist can be used to reduce sharingan efficiency as he never fought a mist-user while using the sharingan.

[Bankai_Zangetsu]

the akatsuki did say he has the highest chakra in all of akatsuki ... maybe if it because of his sword even though i doubt that cuz he sword only eats chakra it doesnt give it to him

[Draffut]

Who would win a fight between Sasuke and Kisame ? I think it would be a tie between Sasuke and Itachi but what about Kisame ? Kisame seems alot weaker ( which he probaly is ) and we've never seen the full extent of Sasuke's new powers yet , so ... who do you think would win an all-out fight between Sasuke and Kisame ?

Lets see here, alot of crazyness being stated here. First off, I believe Kisame would beat Sasuke, but not by a whole lot. Now for the silllyness.

A tie between Sasuke and itachi is rediculous, and not even worth speaking of. Itachi would rock his face.

There are a couple limitations to the Sharingan, one of the major ones being thta you have to have the physical limitations to copy other's abilities. This makes Sasuke copying Kisame's insanly high Chakra jutsu's out of the question. Also, his blade has nothing on Kisame's sword.

That is hard to tell. Kisame has the largest amount of chakra through out the akatski, on the other hand sasuke did something that nobody else could do (kill orochimaru). That is tough, so i say sasuke because of the fact that he has the sharingan on his side.

Sasuke killed someone alreayd on his deathbed. Not much of an acomplishment.

Its true that Kisame has the highest amount of chakra ( that just brough Neji to my mind xD , since he can easily break Kisame's huge chakra ) but Orochimaru managed to beat Naruto at 4 tails ( and that was a whole load of chakra ) while Sasuke easily disposed of Orochimaru.

Ya, he will break Kisame's chakra just like he broke Naruto's.

Orochimaru didn't beat the 4 tails he survived until Yamato saved him. big difference.

kisame himself is not that strong. he is weaker than zabuza, but his cheapass sword sucks up chakra which he feeds on thus the reason he has huge amount of chakra. sasuke will use the eye jutsu on him and win, just as how he won against orochimaru.

Where the hell does it say he gets the Chakra his sword shaves off? You are a moron, and please stop making up stuff that has no bearing. and WTF eye jutsu? You mean counter Kisame's jutsu's with his SHaringan? He can't do this becuase of Kisame's chakra reserve. but I already covered that.

Yeah, Kisame wins, because beating 2 Jounin and 2 Chuunin is waaaaay more noteworthy than defeating 1000 Jounin or Chuunin (or mixture thereof). Without breaking a sweat I might add. Or killing them, which has to be harder. The fact that Sasuke doesn't have Mangekyou is a blessing in disguise, because Itachi can pull off what...2 mangekyou techniques before needing to rest? Sasuke will be able to spam katon's or Chidori versions of his choosing thanks to the curse seal giving him that chakra boost.

Here we go, more people gettign off on the Sasuke emo-fest. time for fun.

Kisame held off 4 powerful main charecters, at only 30% energy. Sasuke beat up a few hundred random people. This is a manga, so it has no real relivence since none of them were notible at all. Kakuzu/Hidan beat up a ton of Monks without breakign so much as a sweat, and it was aluded to the monks being at atleast marginally powerful. this duo still lost to a group of a jounin/2 chunnin/a cheerleader. Beating no name people is nothing in a series like this.

Your MS arguement is also silly, since you dont HAVE to use those jutsu's. but having them helps if you need them, who cares how much chakra it takes. Just becuase Kakashi has the MS, does he walk around time-warping anything that moves. Obviously not.

And the way elements work in naruto is: Lightning beats Earth...Fire beats Wind...Water beats Fire...and I think Wind beats Lightning and Earth beats Water.

This is a mute point. this isn;t Pokemon, and that whole thing was silly. then the fact that he can't shot jutsu's at the capacity of Kakuzu/Kisame makes it negligible regardless

The only things that would allow Kisame to win this fight would be if:
1: He was fast enough to outpace 3rd lvl. Sharingan (no).
2: Sasuke's CS2 is the same strength that it was back when Sasuke beat Naruto (which I doubt).
3:Sasuke doesn't go mini-Itachi on him and starts mind-raping him with Genjutsu.
4:Sasuke doesn't copy any of Kisame's jutsus (send water sharks after him, see how he likes it)
5:Kusanagi doesn't cut through Samehada, as it should.
6:Orochimaru didn't teach him any uber jutsus (which we already know he did).
So basically don't look at Sasuke's eyes, don't use taijutsu against him, don't use ninjutsu against him, don't let Sasuke perform handseals, and don't use his Samehada against him, then Kisame TOTALLY wins.

1: Outpace it? He can overpower it. Speed is not the only method to beating a Sharingan. How will Naruto ever beat Sasuke if it is? And if you dont think Naruto will later beat Sasuke in a rematch.... you are delusional. Also, he faces a mist ninja (as others have said)

2. the CS brings out your full potential. His full potential has incresed, but I highly dout it is as great of an increase as before.

3. Many methods have been shown to escape Genjutsu's. you assume Kisame can't (Which would be silly for a ninja of his level) And unless Sasuke has gained something HUGE we havn't seen, he doesn't have Tsykiyomi to rape Kisame with. Also, despite Sharingan's affinity to Genjutsu's, Sasuke has not shown to have a high proficiency with them (though he may)

4. To copy jutsu's, you hav to have the capabilty to use those jutsu's. If Sasuke can use S ranked water aligned jutsu's at the massive chakra capacity Kisame can, I will be amazed.

5. Why should it? becuase you have a Sasuke hard on? if it gets near SAmeheda, Kisame's blade will suck the chakra and Chidori right out, before it has a chance to cut anything. Sasuke's blade was repelled by Yamoto's wood, so to assume it cant beat any otehr weapon with ease is sillyness.

6. Ya, he knows Uber jutsu's. Or atleast 1. No real reason to argue this point.

Suffice to say, unless Sasuke shows a big improvement we have not seen (MS, A larger Chakra capacity then Itachi, ect.) Kisame would win this matchup. Thoguh I admit, nott by alot.

But then again, I usually forget to take into account Kishi's hardon for Sasuke. Which could easily end up with Sasuke beating the AL and Yondaime (back from the grave) at the same time, single handedly, with one jutsu. He's tried to pull that random crap off before. The series name may be changing soon....

[Juujika]

Lets see here, alot of crazyness being stated here. First off, I believe Kisame would beat Sasuke, but not by a whole lot. Now for the silllyness.
A tie between Sasuke and itachi is rediculous, and not even worth speaking of. Itachi would rock his face.
There are a couple limitations to the Sharingan, one of the major ones being thta you have to have the physical limitations to copy other's abilities. This makes Sasuke copying Kisame's insanly high Chakra jutsu's out of the question. Also, his blade has nothing on Kisame's sword.
Sasuke killed someone alreayd on his deathbed. Not much of an acomplishment.
Ya, he will break Kisame's chakra just like he broke Naruto's.
Orochimaru didn't beat the 4 tails he survived until Yamato saved him. big difference.
Where the hell does it say he gets the Chakra his sword shaves off? You are a moron, and please stop making up stuff that has no bearing. and WTF eye jutsu? You mean counter Kisame's jutsu's with his SHaringan? He can't do this becuase of Kisame's chakra reserve. but I already covered that.
Here we go, more people gettign off on the Sasuke emo-fest. time for fun.
Kisame held off 4 powerful main charecters, at only 30% energy. Sasuke beat up a few hundred random people. This is a manga, so it has no real relivence since none of them were notible at all. Kakuzu/Hidan beat up a ton of Monks without breakign so much as a sweat, and it was aluded to the monks being at atleast marginally powerful. this duo still lost to a group of a jounin/2 chunnin/a cheerleader. Beating no name people is nothing in a series like this.
Your MS arguement is also silly, since you dont HAVE to use those jutsu's. but having them helps if you need them, who cares how much chakra it takes. Just becuase Kakashi has the MS, does he walk around time-warping anything that moves. Obviously not.
This is a mute point. this isn;t Pokemon, and that whole thing was silly. then the fact that he can't shot jutsu's at the capacity of Kakuzu/Kisame makes it negligible regardless
1: Outpace it? He can overpower it. Speed is not the only method to beating a Sharingan. How will Naruto ever beat Sasuke if it is? And if you dont think Naruto will later beat Sasuke in a rematch.... you are delusional. Also, he faces a mist ninja (as others have said)
2. the CS brings out your full potential. His full potential has incresed, but I highly dout it is as great of an increase as before.
3. Many methods have been shown to escape Genjutsu's. you assume Kisame can't (Which would be silly for a ninja of his level) And unless Sasuke has gained something HUGE we havn't seen, he doesn't have Tsykiyomi to rape Kisame with. Also, despite Sharingan's affinity to Genjutsu's, Sasuke has not shown to have a high proficiency with them (though he may)
4. To copy jutsu's, you hav to have the capabilty to use those jutsu's. If Sasuke can use S ranked water aligned jutsu's at the massive chakra capacity Kisame can, I will be amazed.
5. Why should it? becuase you have a Sasuke hard on? if it gets near SAmeheda, Kisame's blade will suck the chakra and Chidori right out, before it has a chance to cut anything. Sasuke's blade was repelled by Yamoto's wood, so to assume it cant beat any otehr weapon with ease is sillyness.
6. Ya, he knows Uber jutsu's. Or atleast 1. No real reason to argue this point.
Suffice to say, unless Sasuke shows a big improvement we have not seen (MS, A larger Chakra capacity then Itachi, ect.) Kisame would win this matchup. Thoguh I admit, nott by alot.
But then again, I usually forget to take into account Kishi's hardon for Sasuke. Which could easily end up with Sasuke beating the AL and Yondaime (back from the grave) at the same time, single handedly, with one jutsu. He's tried to pull that random crap off before. The series name may be changing soon....

Wow, i have to say this guy knows how to throw together a good reply. So many good points to counter back the sasuke fangirl/boy hard ons. Alot of your point i agree on.

The thing about sasuke, he doesnt feel like a Genjutsu user with his sharingGan, he uses it to more improve where he lacks skill at which is a logical thing. Have slow speed? watch Rock lee and match his speed, Cant hit very hard? Watch Rock lee and copy his punches and kicks.

So a fight between kisame and sasuke, wont be a Genjutsu vs a Ninjutsu user. It'll be a Ninjutsu vs Ninjutsu user, and I believe that since kisame only donated 30% of his chakra to a clone which highly reduces the Jutsu list kisame can attack with.

Plus i doubt that would team Itachi with someone very weak, Itachi isnt the type to protect the weak, so Kisame would need to be strong to be teamed with Itachi. Since itachi has to depend on kisame if he uses his sharingGan too much and visa versa.

[kujahlegend]

the most recent episode just said the clones had 30% power of the original

[Juujika]

the most recent episode just said the clones had 30% power of the original

well you cant really use that, Subbers like DB usually cut corners and dont translate word for word. They usually use sentences that translate well. Same goes with translaters for manga chapters, But for the most part yes, it was 30% in the clones.

[6thEspada]

He was using 30% of his chakra in that body not 70, which would make him even stronger.
Also Kisame has admitted that itachi is stronger than him, so the question is how far away Sasuke is from itachi. We haven't seen either of their full powers so this discussion is mostly speculation. We know Kisame has a massive amount of chakra and we have yet to see him fight at his full power, likewise with itachi and sasuke. All we know is that they are all very strong.
If sasuke is close to itachi's level which I think he is then i would say sasuke is stronger, but Kisame definitely wont go down without doing damage to sasuke.
correction although kisame admitted to being able to lose to itachi in battle among all of akatsuki kisame posseses the most chakra and even neji claimed that he hadn't such a massive amount of chakra since naruto so now lets see if he was at 30% while fighting neji's team then just imagine how massive his chakra really is so i think that unless sasuke can endure against kisame or atleast finish him quickly he his going to have alot of difficulty trying to defeat him.well either way you put it sasuke will still have a hard time defeating kisame period.and although sasuke is one of my favorite characters in naruto he is a bit overrated like people making him sound like he a god when he's probably in the same level as naruto i jus believe that unlike naruto, sasuke knows how to make use of his power and use it to its fullest potential but naruto has yet to realize his potential so he still has a long way to go. that's the only boundary that seperate sasuke from naruto

[ninjabot]

Well, that certainly was alot of...something. Few mistakes on your behalf though:

The statement about the ninja army Sasuke dispatched oh-so-awesomely was based on common sense. Who in their right minds sends no-name thugs to capture a Sannin and his apprentice? Rest assured if it's not a political matter (in which case Anbu ops would have been sent) then this would be atleast an A rank mission. What level ninja usually take on A rank missions? Jounin. Likewise the flack jackets could have helped me come to that conclusion, but mostly common sense.

1: You're confused. You can't overpower someone's ability to see where you're going to strike. It sounds like what you're implying is that Kisame's attacks will be so powerfull that the sharingan won't see where they're coming from? I'll need an elaboration to understand what you're trying to say for this one. I'm aware Naruto will beat Sasuke, that's been stated to death, and it's plain shounen common sense.

Also with the mist: again, no. Sasuke had prior training from someone with lots of sharingan experience (Kakashi), assuming Kakashi told him the sharingan's weaknesses is logical. Again back to the common sense...

2: Full potential, that's fine. Whether it be from an actual increase in power or just a stimulation of what's already latently there, CS2 still will up the anty, so...not sure what the point of stating that was. My reason for mentioning it was to remind everyone that it increases Sasuke's chances of winning, which is what it will do here.

3: Again, Kakashi's 3rd lvl. sharingan allowed him to endure tsukuyomi. Sasuke's allowed him to stop, manipulate, and reverse Orochimaru's mind control genjutsu during the "fight" where he tried to take over Sasuke's body. Sasuke showed Kabuto the same genjutsu, to let him know where Orochimaru was held captive, meaning yes, he can use genjutsu of high levels. Not mangekyou sharingan levels, but high levels none the less.

As for anti genjutsu methods there's: causing pain to oneself to awaken them from the genjutsu, using Kai to disperse the genjutsu, or haveing at the very least 3rd lvl. sharingan. Kisame can do two of those three, so you're mistaken. There aren't many ways to get out of genjutsu. Many ways to prevent it though, like fighting with your eyes closed or not looking into one's eyes. Then again, there are genjutsu that don't require eye contact...not saying Sasuke knows any but, just doing my best to enlighten.

4: There has yet to be any canon statement that says a sharingan user needs to have the same amount of chakra (or more) inorder to copy someone's ninjutsu. If that were the case, then during the Chuunin tournament Sasuke would have needed to have chakra equal to or greater than Kakashi inorder to copy Chidori. I think Chidori was B-rank, and Sasuke was only a genin, so he wasn't supposed to be able to pull off something so difficult. Lee's taijutsu was too advanced for his body, but he still could pull it off. He could perform both Lee's taijutsu, and Chidori, within his bodys limitations. By that logic, Sasuke can perform Kisame's jutsus, within his body's limitations. If a genin can pull off B ranks effectively, then a Sannin apprentice (let's just say jounin...) can pull off an S rank. What kind of sense?

Classroom: "Common Sense!"

Good job!

5: The kusanagi was pushed out by wood while Sasuke was tending to more important buisiness. What would have happened if both the wood and the sword clashed at full impact? Common se...never mind, that's been stated to death. Samehada doesnt't even cut solid things, it maims and smashes it. It doesn't cut through nunchaku that could or couldn't be special (referring to Gai's nunchaku) so why would it fair well against a Kusanagi (even if it's just a replica, it's a kusanagi replica).

Well, you were right about one thing: that was fun, if not redundant. So in conclusion class, we've learned:

1: Use common sense before posting, it saves the you and the person who has to wade through your mistakes lots of time.
2: If you're going to call people morons, try to justify it. Not likeing something they like or disagreeing with something as trivial as their opinion does not justify it. If they're mistaken, there are respectable ways to correct them. Calling names isn't one of them.
3: Disclaimers are your friend. Post beforehand things like: "this is just my opinion" or "I've got no proof, but etc." That way when things are typed that are quite possibly nonsense, it won't be held against you. *nice guy pose*

You know, after reading everything I just typed, I've come to the conclusion that CB is slowly corrupting me...sorry if all that came out sounding a little...malicious.

[Undying]

The statement about the ninja army Sasuke dispatched oh-so-awesomely was based on common sense. Who in their right minds sends no-name thugs to capture a Sannin and his apprentice? Rest assured if it's not a political matter (in which case Anbu ops would have been sent) then this would be atleast an A rank mission. What level ninja usually take on A rank missions? Jounin. Likewise the flack jackets could have helped me come to that conclusion, but mostly common sense.
Or they weren't sent to catch them. Or someone hopes that a thousand Genin would be enough to overpower two people. Too many holes.
Also with the mist: again, no. Sasuke had prior training from someone with lots of sharingan experience (Kakashi), assuming Kakashi told him the sharingan's weaknesses is logical. Again back to the common sense...
Or has he? It's possible that Kakashi trained Sasuke only how to utilize Sharingan during active combat.
3: Again, Kakashi's 3rd lvl. sharingan allowed him to endure tsukuyomi. Sasuke's allowed him to stop, manipulate, and reverse Orochimaru's mind control genjutsu during the "fight" where he tried to take over Sasuke's body. Sasuke showed Kabuto the same genjutsu, to let him know where Orochimaru was held captive, meaning yes, he can use genjutsu of high levels. Not mangekyou sharingan levels, but high levels none the less.
Tsukoyomi raped Orochimaru's mind-control. Beating that is nothing much. And Kakashi didn't endure Tsukuyomi... he was floored.
4: There has yet to be any canon statement that says a sharingan user needs to have the same amount of chakra (or more) inorder to copy someone's ninjutsu. If that were the case, then during the Chuunin tournament Sasuke would have needed to have chakra equal to or greater than Kakashi inorder to copy Chidori. I think Chidori was B-rank, and Sasuke was only a genin, so he wasn't supposed to be able to pull off something so difficult. Lee's taijutsu was too advanced for his body, but he still could pull it off. He could perform both Lee's taijutsu, and Chidori, within his bodys limitations. By that logic, Sasuke can perform Kisame's jutsus, within his body's limitations. If a genin can pull off B ranks effectively, then a Sannin apprentice (let's just say jounin...) can pull off an S rank. What kind of sense?
Classroom: common sense! If you try to do a Jutsu that uses up more chakra than you have, you won't pull it off.
1: Use common sense before posting, it saves the you and the person who has to wade through your mistakes lots of time.
Same goes to you >_>.

[Juujika]

Well, that certainly was alot of...something. Few mistakes on your behalf though:
The statement about the ninja army Sasuke dispatched oh-so-awesomely was based on common sense. Who in their right minds sends no-name thugs to capture a Sannin and his apprentice? Rest assured if it's not a political matter (in which case Anbu ops would have been sent) then this would be atleast an A rank mission. What level ninja usually take on A rank missions? Jounin. Likewise the flack jackets could have helped me come to that conclusion, but mostly common sense.
First of all, Shinobi are not created equal. A jounin of one village could rank as Chuunin or even Genin in another village, The point of the sasuke beating 1000+ no names was a simple way to make fangirls and boys know he grown some balls and got stronger. But beating no names compared to holding off one of the leaf village main Jounin and a new jounin, plus a chuunin while only on 30% of your max chakra is impressive. (Ten-Ten doesnt count, weapon users suck in naruto if they dont have a chakra nature with there jutsu.)
You're confused. You can't overpower someone's ability to see where you're going to strike. It sounds like what you're implying is that Kisame's attacks will be so powerfull that the sharingan won't see where they're coming from? the mist: again, no. Sasuke had prior training from someone with lots of sharingan experience (Kakashi), assuming Kakashi told him the sharingan's weaknesses is logical..
It was never said Kakashi trained sasuke in figuring out a way to battle in mist with his sharingan, Nor anything about how to advance the sharingan or how to use it properly. The one time kakashi commented on sasuke using the sharingan was telling him to watch rock lee so he could use it to match his speed.
Kakashi's 3rd lvl. sharingan allowed him to endure tsukuyomi. Sasuke's allowed him to stop, manipulate, and reverse Orochimaru's mind control genjutsu during the "fight" where he tried to take over Sasuke's body. Sasuke showed Kabuto the same genjutsu, to let him know where Orochimaru was held captive, meaning yes, he can use genjutsu of high levels. Not mangekyou sharingan levels, but high levels none the less.
Kakashi's sharingan didnt save him at all when he got into Tsukuyomi, it was his own will that allowed him to live, 72 hrs in that place if kakashi would have been weak minded he would have died. Sasuke was a noob in dealing with Orochimaru. Itachi never even seen that stupid inside world, He stopped Orochimaru with that jutsu right away. Sasuke didnt reverse that inside world with a genjutsu, like a noob he used the curse seal to fight again.. 2 times in the same chapter.. and Orochimaru thought naruto was weak for using the kyuubi heh.
There has yet to be any canon statement that says a sharingan user needs to have the same amount of chakra (or more) inorder to copy someone's ninjutsu. If that were the case, then during the Chuunin tournament Sasuke would have needed to have chakra equal to or greater than Kakashi inorder to copy Chidori. I think Chidori was B-rank, and Sasuke was only a genin, so he wasn't supposed to be able to pull off something so difficult. Lee's taijutsu was too advanced for his body, but he still could pull it off. He could perform both Lee's taijutsu, and Chidori, within his bodys limitations. By that logic, Sasuke can perform Kisame's jutsus, within his body's limitations. If a genin can pull off B ranks effectively, then a Sannin apprentice (let's just say jounin...) can pull off an S rank.
You need around the same chakra to pull a move off, Sharingan doesnt give you = free chakra cost when copying somones jutsu. At the Chuunin exame Sasuke was only able to do chidori two or three times in a row, but i doubt that was due to a lack of chakra, more to his inexperience with the jutsu. Plus the Chidori is a low costing attack jutsu for the damage it can do. Sasuke didnt copy lee's taijutsu, he just copied the speed and if sasuke had the muscle for it, thats why he could move at lee's speed with the weights on.
If Kisame has powerful jutsu's that are higher then sasuke's chakra then he cant copy it, He could attempt it and maybe produce a weaker verison but not the same strength if the chakra requirement is bigger. (though a doubt a shinobi would create a move with a huge chakra cost just to prevent an almost dead clan except for two copying his jutsu.)
The kusanagi was pushed out by wood while Sasuke was tending to more important buisiness. What would have happened if both the wood and the sword clashed at full impact? Common se...never mind, that's been stated to death. Samehada doesnt't even cut solid things, it maims and smashes it. It doesn't cut through nunchaku that could or couldn't be special (referring to Gai's nunchaku) so why would it fair well against a Kusanagi (even if it's just a replica, it's a kusanagi replica).
Kusanagi is only special in the sense it takes in chakra like a asuma's weapons and allows the user to push there chakra into it. If Samehada can eat chakra that is visible, maybe even internal if his big enough then i dont think sasuke using his push chidori though the sword move is going to work well. If samehada's ability to eat chakra wouldnt affect kusanagi then kisame would loose right there, but if samehada can stop that move then Kisame has the advantage.
1: Use common sense before posting, it saves the you and the person who has to wade through your mistakes lots of time.
2: If you're going to call people morons, try to justify it. Not likeing something they like or disagreeing with something as trivial as their opinion does not justify it. If they're mistaken, there are respectable ways to correct them. Calling names isn't one of them. You know, after reading everything I just typed, I've come to the conclusion that CB is slowly corrupting me...sorry if all that came out sounding a little...malicious you shouldnt use the "use common sense line" in your reply, All we do is talk about what a possible out come could be and disscuss the facts that we seen so far. Rarely are we able to take two situation to make a perfect and logical out come in power. So keep that kind of in your face stuff to yourself, and just have fun talking about the possiblities :redbiggri

[ninjabot]

By "endure" I meant "survived. He even said that he wouldn't have lived through the strain had it not been for the sharingan. And Tsukuyomi beat Orochimaru's genjutsu because it's practically the pinnacle of Genjutsu power. We've yet to see any Genjutsu that rivals what Tsukuyomi does, but we've seen something come close (both Oro's Genjutsu and Tsukuyomi relie on the manipulation of an entire alternate dimension, if that ain't powerful, then I don't know what is). If sharingan is supposed to be so much the uber, then why are we taking it lightly all of a sudden?

And as far as not having enough chakra to pull off a jutsu...where's your proof that Sasuke doesn't have that kind of chakra? He can't spam lots of S-ranks, don't get me wrong. But that doesn't mean he can't squeeze one or two out before exhaustion sets in. I'm not saying he's gonna make a clown of Kisame by throwing everything he's got back at him because that would be a waste of time and chakra, especially since they won't be as effective against Kisame anyway. Just saying he can copy them. And use them.

So like...hah! My common sense is more common than yours! Err...sensible than yours!

[Juujika]

By "endure" I meant "survived. He even said that he wouldn't have lived through the strain had it not been for the sharingan. And Tsukuyomi beat Orochimaru's genjutsu because it's practically the pinnacle of Genjutsu power. We've yet to see any Genjutsu that rivals what Tsukuyomi does, but we've seen something come close (both Oro's Genjutsu and Tsukuyomi relie on the manipulation of an entire alternate dimension, if that ain't powerful, then I don't know what is). If sharingan is supposed to be so much the uber, then why are we taking it lightly all of a sudden?
And as far as not having enough chakra to pull off a jutsu...where's your proof that Sasuke doesn't have that kind of chakra? He can't spam lots of S-ranks, don't get me wrong. But that doesn't mean he can't squeeze one or two out before exhaustion sets in. I'm not saying he's gonna make a clown of Kisame by throwing everything he's got back at him because that would be a waste of time and chakra, especially since they won't be as effective against Kisame anyway. Just saying he can copy them. And use them.
So like...hah! My common sense is more common than yours! Err...sensible than yours!

If kakashi said it was his sharingan that let him surivive in that world then i must of missed it, i thought he meant his sharingan was the only thing that allowed him to fight itachi alittle before getting steamed rolled like a beginner.

Not once did i say Tsukuyomi would lose to Orochimaru's jutsu. Plus i dont think Orochimaru's jutsu is completely Genjutsu like Tsukuyomi is. Anyways, Itachi didnt use Tsukuyomi on Orochimaru, he used a powerful imprison jutsu thats all, and sasuke pulled off the same jutsu. The only difference is Sasuke got sucked into that alternate dimension, and while in that alternate dimension he didnt use another Genjutsu to get out of it, he used Raw power from his curse seal and his own will.

I didnt say he doesnt have that type of chakra, i said the sharingan doesnt give a chakra free copy when someone uses the other persons jutsu. But is only 30% of chakra looks big enough to match Naruto's when he summoned some when fighting neji at the chuunin test, its safe to say Kisame has much more then sasuke. And if you read my post, i said Sasuke could possible copy Kisame's jutsu's if they were higher then his chakra max, all he would do is produce a weaker and pittiful verison.

Soo.. like ha, right back at you :winking56

[Seff]

Just to talk about Kusangi..

It's the sword that the Yamata No Orochi (8 tails) was stabbed with, which it absorbed. (this is how the hacibi got it's powers)

Suffice to say, the Kusangi is quite powerful. But Sasuke dosen't have the real thing, and you can't replictae what is seemingly a "magical" item. So while Sasuke's sword may be shaped in the same way as Kusangi, it has about the same cutting power as any sword made with same craftsmanship as it.

Samehada, on the other hand, if the chakra-absorbing fish that allows the three-tails to boost it's powers.

Samehada > Kusangi replica. I wouldn't be surprised if it broke Sasuke's toy.

[Undying]

By "endure" I meant "survived. He even said that he wouldn't have lived through the strain had it not been for the sharingan. And Tsukuyomi beat Orochimaru's genjutsu because it's practically the pinnacle of Genjutsu power. We've yet to see any Genjutsu that rivals what Tsukuyomi does, but we've seen something come close (both Oro's Genjutsu and Tsukuyomi relie on the manipulation of an entire alternate dimension, if that ain't powerful, then I don't know what is). If sharingan is supposed to be so much the uber, then why are we taking it lightly all of a sudden?
Are we? I'm not. Kisame will still win though... and Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi. Let's compare the situation...

Itachi beat an Orochimaru in his prime without even trying to look serious. Sasuke beat a near-death Orochimaru with everything he had. =_=. Some accomplishment... Sasuke's Sharingan isn't as strong as Itachi's. That's all. And besides, beating Orochimaru wasn't a feat of strength, it was a feat of mental powers. Since against Kisame he will need strength, then Orochimaru's situation is irrelevant.

And as far as not having enough chakra to pull off a jutsu...where's your proof that Sasuke doesn't have that kind of chakra? He can't spam lots of S-ranks, don't get me wrong. But that doesn't mean he can't squeeze one or two out before exhaustion sets in. I'm not saying he's gonna make a clown of Kisame by throwing everything he's got back at him because that would be a waste of time and chakra, especially since they won't be as effective against Kisame anyway. Just saying he can copy them. And use them.

Let's see... Sasuke can pull 4 Chidoris in a day and collapse with zero chakra... Kisame at 30% or so has so much chakra Neji was all like "WTFHAX". Now imagine Kisame with 3 times his chakra... and with full power. Sasuke hasn't impressed anyone with his uber-hax amounts of Chakra, because he doesn't have them.

So like...hah! My common sense is more common than yours! Err...sensible than yours!
=_=,D00d, you're making less sense than me... that's something I've never seen before.


Samehada > Kusangi replica. I wouldn't be surprised if it broke Sasuke's toy.
That sounded very inappropriate.

[Juujika]

Just to talk about Kusangi..

It's the sword that the Yamata No Orochi (8 tails) was stabbed with, which it absorbed. (this is how the hacibi got it's powers)

Suffice to say, the Kusangi is quite powerful. But Sasuke dosen't have the real thing, and you can't replictae what is seemingly a "magical" item. So while Sasuke's sword may be shaped in the same way as Kusangi, it has about the same cutting power as any sword made with same craftsmanship as it.

Samehada, on the other hand, if the chakra-absorbing fish that allows the three-tails to boost it's powers.

Samehada > Kusangi replica. I wouldn't be surprised if it broke Sasuke's toy.
I didnt know the story behind Kusangi, what chapter was that in if you dont mind telling me? I just assumed the sword sasuke had was just another chakra absorbing weapon like asuma's kunai things. You push your nature through the weapon and they are just sharper then a normal weapon.

I said Samehada would beat sasuke's sword just because of the chakra devouring ability.

So is the 8 tails sealed in the sword, in a human or out free? was this said yet?

[Undying]

Both Kusanagi and Somehada are based on Japanese folklore.

If I remembered correctly, Kusanagi no Tsurugi was the sword extracted from the Yamata no Orochi's tail by the d00d that beat him. Then Yamata no Orochi reabsorbed the sword and his power had grown to match the Qyuubi (originally Yamata no Orochi was one of the weakest tailed beasts, if not THE weakest).

The Somehada is named after some sort of a shark creature (a sort of remora, actually, I think) that stuck to the tailed beast that ruled over water. It was said that Somehada amplified the water-tailed beast by 5 times.

Wikipedia is your friend.

[Seff]

I didnt know the story behind Kusangi, what chapter was that in if you dont mind telling me? I just assumed the sword sasuke had was just another chakra absorbing weapon like asuma's kunai things. You push your nature through the weapon and they are just sharper then a normal weapon.
I said Samehada would beat sasuke's sword just because of the chakra devouring ability.
So is the 8 tails sealed in the sword, in a human or out free? was this said yet?

:P it's not in the chapter man, i've taken an interest in the tailed beasts due to the Naruto RP. The best info i have found is here.
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=57918

The bit with the three tails contains things relating to kisame, and the 8 tails contains things about the kusangi =]

have fun ^^


As for the eight tails...

Personally, i think it's in Orochimaru (and therefore, Sasuke. Although with this Kabutomaru thing, idk anymore ¬_¬.)

However, a Yagami genius was apparentely supposed to awake the hachibi, Yamata No Orochi.

Funnily enough, Sasuke was supposed to be Oro's new body, in essence, "reviving him"


Something like that.

It's all speculation :)

[ninjabot]

Whoops, my mistake. Rather than type "Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan" beat Orochimaru's genjutsu, I typed Tsukuyomi. And I don't remember posting that Sasuke had Tsukuyomi...he doesn't even have Mangekyou Sharingan, so he can't have Tsukuyomi.

You'll also find it interesting that throughout these 4 pages, I never once spoke of Sasuke defeating Orochimaru in a "balance of power" type of fight, or anything close to "Sasuke beat Orochimaru, so he can beat Kisame", but evidentally somebody heard that. That's the impression I'm getting, because 3 people now have said something about that, despite me not saying anything about it. Go fig.

It took everything Sasuke had? Well, he was in CS2...despite the fact that a sweat wasn't broken, and he didn't sustain any enjuries. But yeah, Oro was sick, yada yada yada. It doesn't get Sasuke any street cred for beating a sickly sannin, but don't pretend he was gonna get pwned, I mean he wasn't even touched. Everything he had? Sasuke's fight against Naruto took everything he had, because he could barely stand in the end. If I walk away from a fight with nary a scratch nor sweat on my brow, I wouldn't consider that a tough fight. You shouldn't either.

Yeah, and that proof would have worked, pre-timeskip. He could do 4 Chidori back then, but what about now? 2 and a half years is a long time. Time enough to both reach and surpass one's limits, right?

Also, would that Kusanagi sword legend be the "real" legend or the Naruto verse version?

[Seff]

The naruto tailed beasts are based on the ones from folklore.

For me, the sword is just more proof that orochimaru is the 8 tails jinchurikki =]

[Undying]

It took everything Sasuke had? Well, he was in CS2...despite the fact that a sweat wasn't broken, and he didn't sustain any enjuries. But yeah, Oro was sick, yada yada yada. It doesn't get Sasuke any street cred for beating a sickly sannin, but don't pretend he was gonna get pwned, I mean he wasn't even touched. Everything he had? Sasuke's fight against Naruto took everything he had, because he could barely stand in the end. If I walk away from a fight with nary a scratch nor sweat on my brow, I wouldn't consider that a tough fight. You shouldn't either.
1. Sasuke had to go CS2 in order to beat Orochimaru. That's effort.
2. Sasuke was fighting a sick man, so the lack of injuries is obvious.
3. The main "fight" was a mental one and not a physical one.

Also, this is meant to show that Sasuke's defeating of a sickly sannin does NOT put him on a level of power to defeat Kisame. It does not indicate his new mega-hax powers because Sasuke was fighting inside his head. Against Kisame, the battle is different, completely.

Yeah, and that proof would have worked, pre-timeskip. He could do 4 Chidori back then, but what about now? 2 and a half years is a long time. Time enough to both reach and surpass one's limits, right?
But to what extent? Are you suggesting that Sasuke now has more chakra than the 9-tailed Jinchuuriki?

[Juujika]

:P it's not in the chapter man, i've taken an interest in the tailed beasts due to the Naruto RP. The best info i have found is here.
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=57918

The bit with the three tails contains things relating to kisame, and the 8 tails contains things about the kusangi =]

have fun ^^


As for the eight tails...

Personally, i think it's in Orochimaru (and therefore, Sasuke. Although with this Kabutomaru thing, idk anymore ¬_¬.)

However, a Yagami genius was apparentely supposed to awake the hachibi, Yamata No Orochi.

Funnily enough, Sasuke was supposed to be Oro's new body, in essence, "reviving him"


Something like that.

It's all speculation :)

Wow thanks, that was a very interesting read. :)

[Jay3205]

I'm guessing Sasuke would win this. Although beating up a nearly-dead sannin doesn't prove much, he wasn't anywhere near pushing his limits. Like ninjabot said, one doesn't walk away from a tough fight with no injuries at all.

Also, chakra isn't the only factor in a battle. Having more chakra doesn't mean Kisame's battle ability will rise dramatically; it just means he can afford to use jutsu more often without worrying about missing. It will probably be fairly hard to land a jutsu directly against any true Sharingan user.

We also don't know how much Sasuke has improved either. At the least, he probably has 1 "that" jutsu that would probably beat Kisame if he scored a hit with it, and he evidently has enough other jutsu to keep up. How great Kisame's taijutsu is I'm not quite sure, but I wouldn't doubt that Sasuke+Sharingan could keep up or beat it.

Finally, it's Sasuke. The only people he's allowed to lose to are Itachi and eventually Naruto.

[Seff]

Saskue felt it necessary to go CS2 against a dying Orochimaru, so he can't have been that easy an opponent.

Also, theres only so much the sharingan can do against large-area of effect water jutsus, like the mist, waterfall release, ect.

And if you run out of chakra, you run out of energy. Essentially, Kisame has more staying power than Sasuke (whos chakra will be drained by getting in close)

In addition, we haven't seen anything long ranged from Sasuke except fire, which is useless against Kisame. So basically, Kisame could stay at range and barrage him with AOE.

[Undying]

If this was reality, yes he would. However, we have Kishimoto to make sure that Kisame feels an incredible urge to use his sword and closes in on Sasuke, who then uses a fire jutsu that magically works and defeats Kisame.

[Juujika]

If this was reality, yes he would. However, we have Kishimoto to make sure that Kisame feels an incredible urge to use his sword and closes in on Sasuke, who then uses a fire jutsu that magically works and defeats Kisame.
Kisame doesnt seem like hes the long ranged type, i bet he can do it probably just perfers to be up close and in his enemies face which would be bad against sasuke. Long ranged would = a win for kisame unless sasuke transforms to the complete curse seal noob and uses the chidori sword thingy.

[Draffut]

well you cant really use that, Subbers like DB usually cut corners and dont translate word for word. They usually use sentences that translate well. Same goes with translaters for manga chapters, But for the most part yes, it was 30% in the clones.

In the manga, after the clones are defeated, Kisame states that they were only 30% chakra. The statements by him and the AL before then seam to allude to the clones having 70%, but this statement proves otherwise.

Well, that certainly was alot of...something. Few mistakes on your behalf though:
The statement about the ninja army Sasuke dispatched oh-so-awesomely was based on common sense. Who in their right minds sends no-name thugs to capture a Sannin and his apprentice? Rest assured if it's not a political matter (in which case Anbu ops would have been sent) then this would be atleast an A rank mission. What level ninja usually take on A rank missions? Jounin. Likewise the flack jackets could have helped me come to that conclusion, but mostly common sense.

Holy crap batman, who ever said those ninja were sent to kill Sasuke. I never got that impression from anywhere. They just seamed like a bunch of random weak Sound Genin that Orochimaru gathered together to me. Please show me where those were enemy ninja attempting to kill Sasuke/Orochimaru? I mean, Konoha doesn't even know where they are, who would be sending a massive squad of ninja at them. Unless you are aluding to them all being Akatsuki followers.... but if that the case, why did Sasori need to mind control Kabuto to get info...

1: You're confused. You can't overpower someone's ability to see where you're going to strike. It sounds like what you're implying is that Kisame's attacks will be so powerfull that the sharingan won't see where they're coming from? I'll need an elaboration to understand what you're trying to say for this one. I'm aware Naruto will beat Sasuke, that's been stated to death, and it's plain shounen common sense.
Also with the mist: again, no. Sasuke had prior training from someone with lots of sharingan experience (Kakashi), assuming Kakashi told him the sharingan's weaknesses is logical. Again back to the common sense...

You seam to be claimign this "Logical" thing alot, and I see later on down the line you say "THIS ISN'T CANON!" or some jazz. funny, but please pick a side. anyhow, as to the point.

Yes you can overpower that ability, Zabuza could do it.Yondaime could do it. Kyuubi could do it, ect. there are many ways to stop it from following you. The Sharingan only see's your next logical movement, it doesn't actually tell the future (Yet, hahaha!) so even somethign like Lee's Drunken Style would confound it.

As for hte "powerful" thing, i was refering to Sasuke tryign to mimic he water jutsu's. sorry for the confusion.

2: Full potential, that's fine. Whether it be from an actual increase in power or just a stimulation of what's already latently there, CS2 still will up the anty, so...not sure what the point of stating that was. My reason for mentioning it was to remind everyone that it increases Sasuke's chances of winning, which is what it will do here.

I was just pointing out what it's not as large on an increse as you seam to believe. It also doesn;t seam to increse speed or strength or anyting else like that either. Just Chakra capacity. Which Kisame will still be far superior than him in, so it's a mute point.


3: Again, Kakashi's 3rd lvl. sharingan allowed him to endure tsukuyomi. Sasuke's allowed him to stop, manipulate, and reverse Orochimaru's mind control genjutsu during the "fight" where he tried to take over Sasuke's body. Sasuke showed Kabuto the same genjutsu, to let him know where Orochimaru was held captive, meaning yes, he can use genjutsu of high levels. Not mangekyou sharingan levels, but high levels none the less.
As for anti genjutsu methods there's: causing pain to oneself to awaken them from the genjutsu, using Kai to disperse the genjutsu, or haveing at the very least 3rd lvl. sharingan. Kisame can do two of those three, so you're mistaken. There aren't many ways to get out of genjutsu. Many ways to prevent it though, like fighting with your eyes closed or not looking into one's eyes. Then again, there are genjutsu that don't require eye contact...not saying Sasuke knows any but, just doing my best to enlighten.

First off, Kakashi didn't survive Tsykiyomi becuase of his Sharingan. He clearly states that Itachi could have killed him with it if he wanted to. He only survived becuase Itachi didn't want to kill him (Plot nessecitity I assume) I dont know where you think this shit up.

Secondly, Who said that the body swap jutsu was a Genjutsu, or was it specified on what Sasuke did to overpower the jutsu (Reverse, Supress, Counter, ect.) He did manage to put Kabuto in a genjutsu, but if you seriously think that Kisame is at the same level as Kabuto, that is just silyness. Just becuase a ninja can Genjutsu Konohamaru doesn't mean it would work on Kurenai.

So, no. He has not shown the abiltiy to use Genjutsu's on the level required to fight someone like Kisame. To add onto this, you have to align your chakra up with the opponents to use successful genjutsu's (stated by Sakura/Chiyo) Kisame's chakra must be so bonkers, becuase there is so much, it would be hard to align with.

I know how Genjutsu's work in the series. And I know just about anyone except Itachi (or some other genjutsu user of his level) would have major issues Genjutsuing Kisame. Not that it's impossible. but very hard.

4: There has yet to be any canon statement that says a sharingan user needs to have the same amount of chakra (or more) inorder to copy someone's ninjutsu. If that were the case, then during the Chuunin tournament Sasuke would have needed to have chakra equal to or greater than Kakashi inorder to copy Chidori. I think Chidori was B-rank, and Sasuke was only a genin, so he wasn't supposed to be able to pull off something so difficult. Lee's taijutsu was too advanced for his body, but he still could pull it off. He could perform both Lee's taijutsu, and Chidori, within his bodys limitations. By that logic, Sasuke can perform Kisame's jutsus, within his body's limitations. If a genin can pull off B ranks effectively, then a Sannin apprentice (let's just say jounin...) can pull off an S rank. What kind of sense?

Have you read the Databooks? They clearly state that you need to have the physical ability to use copied jutsu's with the Sharingan. Or do you not concider the Databooks Canon?

And it makes perfect sense. At the level that Kakashi taught Sasuke to use Chidori, Sasuke could only use it 2 (or was it 3?) times. Kakashi could do this far more. I think you misunderstood me. I am just saying, to copy Kisame's "Ocean no jutsu" (whatever it was called) you would have to have the chakra reserves to perform that jutsu, and in the case of S-Ranked elemental based jutsu's, you would also need the correct Chakra alignment. (Fire/Water/Wind ect.) To copy somethign like Rasengan, you would need the physical ability and knowhow to hold that form of the jutsu.

Example? Sasuke may have the Chakra to copy Rasengan, but does he have the control to keep it's difficult form? He may now, but it is a limitation of the Sharingan. He cant just be like "I see it, so i can do it no matter what"

Anouther point is, Kakashi didn;t team Sasuke the Raikiri (better then Chidori) instead of the Chidori. it'll let you think about why.

5: The kusanagi was pushed out by wood while Sasuke was tending to more important buisiness. What would have happened if both the wood and the sword clashed at full impact? Common se...never mind, that's been stated to death. Samehada doesnt't even cut solid things, it maims and smashes it. It doesn't cut through nunchaku that could or couldn't be special (referring to Gai's nunchaku) so why would it fair well against a Kusanagi (even if it's just a replica, it's a kusanagi replica).

Every point you just seam to get angrier, which is pretty amusing. anyhow.

So, becuase Sasuke wasn't payign attention, the blade becomes less "able to cut anything" Maybe my car will work that way to. If I am driving it, if i stop paying attention, it will become less deadly if it hits someone. I really hope so!

So you have 2 choices (that I see) either it cuts everything all the time. Or it can cut anything when he does "Flowing Chidori".

If #1, it should have cut the wood when Yamoto summoned it, regardless. It can cut anythign right, not "It can cut most things if Sasuke pushs real hard"

if #2, then Kisame will suck the Flowing Chidori out of it before he ever has a chance to cut through Sameheda. neither sword will break, but his Kusanagi becomes almost useless.

1: Use common sense before posting, it saves the you and the person who has to wade through your mistakes lots of time.
2: If you're going to call people morons, try to justify it. Not likeing something they like or disagreeing with something as trivial as their opinion does not justify it. If they're mistaken, there are respectable ways to correct them. Calling names isn't one of them.
3: Disclaimers are your friend. Post beforehand things like: "this is just my opinion" or "I've got no proof, but etc." That way when things are typed that are quite possibly nonsense, it won't be held against you. *nice guy pose*
You know, after reading everything I just typed, I've come to the conclusion that CB is slowly corrupting me...sorry if all that came out sounding a little...malicious.

1. I have yet to see you counter a single one of those arguements, except the first one, which was us arguing 2 seperate things.

2. I never called you a moron, you had some good arguements (though incorrect :winking56 ) THe only time it was stated was to the man who said that Kisame's sword gives him hte chakra it absorbs, and that he is weaker then Zabuza.

3. Unforutnatly, here in Iraq, I can't really access the manga or episodes to put up the "proof" But eveyrthign I have stated has had far more backing (In some cases by the Databooks) then what you have brought up. Pointing out that fact that this is my "opinion" is silly, since this is a debate, and what I have posted is no less fact then all your "Common sense" assumptions, which are, I have to say. Opinions.

[Juujika]

Draffut, you point out some very good points, though most were covered already. So basically when it comes down to it,

Sasuke v.s Kisame = one hell of a battle, Kisame has the advantage long range and Sasuke has the advantage close range just because of the jutsu's there both able to do, but even in close range kisame is very dangerous with his monsterous strength that easily over powered one of the best taijutsu users that the leaf village ever produced and an huge chakra max. 30% of it makes neji think of naruto during the chuunin exam.

Only problem i see for kisame is if he used that massive water jutsu, cause i believe that electricy flows the quickest through water? so kisame would need to use mist and fire water type jutsu's at sasuke.

[ninjabot]

Well, as far as Kyuubi, Yondaime, and Zabuza "overpowering" Sharingan, I think you missinterpret what I meant. I was talking about using brute force to counteract the actual ability of the Sharingan. Kyuubi's chakra manipulated Naruto's body against his actual muscles and his own will. Sasuke focusing on Naruto's physique rather than the aura is what threw him off. Zabuza had the mist, which ofcourse we already discussed. What you say about Drunken style is true too, to a lesser extent. All of those revolve around erratic confusing movements or preventing the Sharingan user's eyes from even seeing the opponent to beginwith. When you said overpower, I thought you literally meant defeat it with brute force.

I didn't think up anything as far as Sharingan allowing one to endure Tsukuyomi:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EpBG7ptgkV0

Now, Kakashi does state that he would have died, but both he and Itachi also say that Sharingan allows one to endure the genjutsu of Tsukuyomi for a little while, though it takes a full blooded Uchiha to actually defeat it (hence, the way Sasuke will beat Itachi in the future). So technically we're both right, but most importantly, I'm right. And with Sasuke haveing uber genjutsu, the only abilities we've seen that allows someone to create an alternate world where they are in control is Tsukuyomi, a genjutsu. Orochimaru did the same thing though, and once Sasuke is placed into this otherworld, Kishimoto made it a point to give us a close-up on Sasuke's Sharingan as if to imply something was going down that involved Sharingan, and sure enough, that's what happened. Even if there was a chance that it wasn't a Genjutsu, then that just gives Sasuke mind control in the classic sense, or the ability to control an entire dimension with sheer will. Which would you rather accept and most importantly, which one would Kisame stand a chance against? Also, if the Kyuubi can be subdued by the Sharingan, I see no reason why Kisame, someone of less chakra amount would endure it.

And you're stating what's been said already about being able to copy a jutsu, but when they are performed they would be at a lower level. For example, Sasuke couldn't make an entire ocean, but a big lake, sure. Even though Sasuke has both Lightning and Fire innate elements, that doesn't mean his lightning chakra equals Kakashi's, but he can still do anything Kakashi can, within his own limits. The Databooks basically say the same thing from what you're telling me (and no, I've not read any of them). Also, Rasengan doesn't rely on handseals, so I doubt it could be copied right off the bat anyway, Sasuke would need to watch the user's hands and understand their musclemovement...or something.

And I know you didn't call me a moron, I just can't help but get a little flustered when someone who obiously has the maturity (you can tell from most of your debating) decides it's ok to start name calling when someone makes a mistake. Granted, it's not like the guy can come to Iraq and say "hey, calling me a moron wasn't cool, say it to my face or take it back." If there's anything that angered me at all, it's that. I've dealt with enough people on here haveing opposite views as my own to know better than to get upset over something as silly as which character would win in a fight. Likewise, I doubt anyone here hates me for likeing Sasuke as my favorite Naruto character.

As far as the sword thing goes, if you actively swing a sword at me and connect, then I'm cut. But if the sword is touching me without any kinetic force behind it, then it's just sitting there. If it constantly had it's "cut through anything" effect in play, how could it sit in it's sheath?

So so far we've learned that every "point" being made has a counter-point. Sasuke can copy Kisame's jutsus, but can't use them effectively. Sasuke has the ability to counter and alter high level genjutsu, but that doesn't mean he has any of his own to use. The kusanagi cuts through anything, but we don't know enough about it to say "how", or if Sasuke's is the same build as Orochimaru's. Yet to counter any of your statements, huh? Looks to me like I'm doing fine.

[Undying]

Ninjabot, you seem to be misunderstanding a couple of things.

Kyuubi subdued by Sharingan: it wasn't that Sasuke can overpower anyone's chakra. But the Kyuubi and the Sharingan are tied together (someone at Narutoforums had a marvelous theory about it and the origins of Sharingan). The point is, what Sasuke did was seal off the flow of Chakra the Kyuubi sent into Naruto. In essence, he beat his "mind" in the same way he beat Orochimaru's world. This isn't Genjutsu, it's a mental battle of a person sending his mind into another's.

And the water abilities: in order to copy a jutsu, you need to be able to manipulate that specific chakra element, otherwise you just can't. There is no proof whatsoever that Sasuke can manipulate any element aside from fire and lightning. Hence, he will not be able to use a water jutsu since he lacks the ability to manipulate water.

Oh and, Sharingan grants the user auto anti-Genjutsu abilities (hence Itachi was completely unaffected by Kurenai's Genjutsu. It does not mean said user can use Genjutsu. Sasuke hasn't, so far, used a Genjutsu that is really powerful enough to defeat anyone of S-rank escaped criminal level. Certainly he will be able to counter low-level Genjutsu, but that doesn't mean he can send Kisame into dream world.

Most importantly with Sharingan, it works only with eye-contact. Kisame has been a partner with a powerful Sharingan user for a while now. Do you honestly believe that he is idiot enough NOT to know that basic thing?
As far as the sword thing goes, if you actively swing a sword at me and connect, then I'm cut. But if the sword is touching me without any kinetic force behind it, then it's just sitting there. If it constantly had it's "cut through anything" effect in play, how could it sit in it's sheath?
Somehada does not cut, it shaves. And wasn't Sasuke pushing against the wood? I thought he was trying to push it back.
So so far we've learned that every "point" being made has a counter-point. Sasuke can copy Kisame's jutsus, but can't use them effectively. Sasuke has the ability to counter and alter high level genjutsu, but that doesn't mean he has any of his own to use. The kusanagi cuts through anything, but we don't know enough about it to say "how", or if Sasuke's is the same build as Orochimaru's. Yet to counter any of your statements, huh? Looks to me like I'm doing fine.
I hardly call "being an obsessed fanboy" "doing fine."

What you're doing so far is insisting that Sasuke will win because he is uber l33t hax. You assume he can copy a S-rank Jutsu. You assume he has better sword-skills than Kisame. You assume that his Kusanagi, which is a mere copy, can cut anything. You assume that he possess great Genjutsu skills. With so many assumptions, I don't know why do you think you're doing fine.

[ninjabot]

Because there's nothing up there that says my assumptions are wrong. They are assumptions, but they're not "baseless" assumptions. And again, I said Sasuke might not be able to pull the Genjutsus off, but if not, then how did he show Kabuto what happened to Orochimaru? There would have to be some kind of mental power outside of Genjutsu that allowed him to do so. Which are you willing to accept? That he's a telepath, or that he knows high level Genjutsu?

As far as Kisame learning about the weaknesses of Sharingan from Itachi, that clashes with whoever told me earlier that Sasuke didn't learn anything about the weaknesses of Sharingan from Kakashi. When I used that argument it was speculation, but when we use it in Kisame's favor it becomes viable. That point, we'll have to settle for both opponents could know more about Sharingan than we give them credit for. But who would know more? Someone trained in the use of Sharingan, or someone who just hangs out with a Sharingan user?

[Juujika]

Ninjabot, you seem to be misunderstanding a couple of things.

Kyuubi subdued by Sharingan: it wasn't that Sasuke can overpower anyone's chakra. But the Kyuubi and the Sharingan are tied together (someone at Narutoforums had a marvelous theory about it and the origins of Sharingan). The point is, what Sasuke did was seal off the flow of Chakra the Kyuubi sent into Naruto. In essence, he beat his "mind" in the same way he beat Orochimaru's world. This isn't Genjutsu, it's a mental battle of a person sending his mind into another's.
My theory about sasuke stoping the kyuubi "chakra flow", its not that sasuke could do it on his on. I think the fact naruto was pretty much doing the same thing before sasuke wanted to but in and be a noob, puts the sharingan factor out.

I doubt he could do it again unless naruto is trying to subpress the kyuubi as well. It was a one time thing, that had nothing to do with the sharingan beside allowing sasuke to invade naruto's mind sort of

[Seff]

But who would know more? Someone trained in the use of Sharingan, or someone who just hangs out with a Sharingan user?

Who has the higher level sharingan?

Kisame knows enough.

Sasukes only performed low level genjutsu, nothing like tsukyomi.

[Undying]

Because there's nothing up there that says my assumptions are wrong. They are assumptions, but they're not "baseless" assumptions. And again, I said Sasuke might not be able to pull the Genjutsus off, but if not, then how did he show Kabuto what happened to Orochimaru? There would have to be some kind of mental power outside of Genjutsu that allowed him to do so. Which are you willing to accept? That he's a telepath, or that he knows high level Genjutsu?
High level Genjutsu? That is another baseless assumption. He just showed Kabuto a short movie clip. I hardly call that high-level Genjutsu.
As far as Kisame learning about the weaknesses of Sharingan from Itachi, that clashes with whoever told me earlier that Sasuke didn't learn anything about the weaknesses of Sharingan from Kakashi. When I used that argument it was speculation, but when we use it in Kisame's favor it becomes viable. That point, we'll have to settle for both opponents could know more about Sharingan than we give them credit for. But who would know more? Someone trained in the use of Sharingan, or someone who just hangs out with a Sharingan user?
No, it does not clash with it. Kakashi may have taught Sasuke how to properly use the Sharingan on his level, but Itachi and Kisame are an entirely different level. Kakashi might've taught Sasuke how to use Sharingan + Chidori.

Itachi knows Genjutsu, Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, and probably every aspect of Sharingan, even those Kakashi never heard of. Simple as that.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

Itachi is blind...

[Undying]

Not yet. He wears contacts.

Oh and by the way, Kyouka, long time no see!

[Draffut]

didn't think up anything as far as Sharingan allowing one to endure Tsukuyomi:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EpBG7ptgkV0
Now, Kakashi does state that he would have died, but both he and Itachi also say that Sharingan allows one to endure the genjutsu of Tsukuyomi for a little while, though it takes a full blooded Uchiha to actually defeat it (hence, the way Sasuke will beat Itachi in the future). So technically we're both right, but most importantly, I'm right. And with Sasuke haveing uber genjutsu, the only abilities we've seen that allows someone to create an alternate world where they are in control is Tsukuyomi, a genjutsu. Orochimaru did the same thing though, and once Sasuke is placed into this otherworld, Kishimoto made it a point to give us a close-up on Sasuke's Sharingan as if to imply something was going down that involved Sharingan, and sure enough, that's what happened. Even if there was a chance that it wasn't a Genjutsu, then that just gives Sasuke mind control in the classic sense, or the ability to control an entire dimension with sheer will. Which would you rather accept and most importantly, which one would Kisame stand a chance against? Also, if the Kyuubi can be subdued by the Sharingan, I see no reason why Kisame, someone of less chakra amount would endure it.

Unfortunatly, I can't see Youtube here at work. And it's an anime clip, so I really could care less what it says.

If you are refering to where Itachi says that he can only be beat by anouther Sharingan user, you seam confused. He never stated that (manga atleast) that you need to have a sharingan to counter Tsukiyomi. He said you need a Sharingan to beat him. We dont know why that is yet, but it very likely has no bearing on Tsukiyomi.

Secondly, you point out Kishi doing a closeup on the Sharingan, then seam to imply this means Sasuke used a high level genjutsu, which is ludicris. This was in reference to the previious flashback where Itachi said "All of your jutsu's are useless against these eyes" to orochimaru. Showing that Sasuke's Sharingan was able to counter\nullify the body transfer. Not perfrm any high level jutsu's of his own. Plus, I have doubts that the body transfer is a genjutsu, or ninjutsu, or any jutsu type we have seen so far. If anything, it would probobly be a sealing jutsu.

Thirdly, if you think Sasuke supressing the SEALED Kyuubi's chakra inside a EXHAUSTED Naruto means he can supress anyone's chakra, you need to go read anouther manga. becuase thats just silly.

And you're stating what's been said already about being able to copy a jutsu, but when they are performed they would be at a lower level. For example, Sasuke couldn't make an entire ocean, but a big lake, sure. Even though Sasuke has both Lightning and Fire innate elements, that doesn't mean his lightning chakra equals Kakashi's, but he can still do anything Kakashi can, within his own limits. The Databooks basically say the same thing from what you're telling me (and no, I've not read any of them). Also, Rasengan doesn't rely on handseals, so I doubt it could be copied right off the bat anyway, Sasuke would need to watch the user's hands and understand their musclemovement...or something.

I havn't seen many jutsu's in this series that can have varying degries of power and chakra behind them. Only ones that come to mind are summoning and cloning jutsu's. CHidori's require the same amount of chakra no matter what. If you want a better one, it's called a Raikiri. you can't make a "baby" Chidori. You can;t make "miniature" sealing jutsu's. You cant use Shikamaru's jutsu, and make it have double length. These would all be completely seperate jutsu's and seals to aquire. They probobly CAN be done. but a Mini-Amaterasu would be a completely new jutsu, taking less chakra, and different seals (or whatever it uses).

So Sasuke can;t just copy Kisame's "Atlanic Ocean no Jutsu" and make his own "Lake Michigan no Jutsu" unless kishi changes how the jutsu's work.

Kakashi copied the 4th's Rasengan with probobly very few times seeing it. He just had to see it, and practice alittle on his own.
\

And I know you didn't call me a moron, I just can't help but get a little flustered when someone who obiously has the maturity (you can tell from most of your debating) decides it's ok to start name calling when someone makes a mistake. Granted, it's not like the guy can come to Iraq and say "hey, calling me a moron wasn't cool, say it to my face or take it back." If there's anything that angered me at all, it's that. I've dealt with enough people on here haveing opposite views as my own to know better than to get upset over something as silly as which character would win in a fight. Likewise, I doubt anyone here hates me for likeing Sasuke as my favorite Naruto character.

I dont name call when people just "make mistakes" or else I would have called you an assclown or something by now. I reserve those names for people who seam to say things so rediclous and out of left field, I feel it is merited. They are rare, but that was one of those times.

If you disaprove of my language or something, rep me so. I just started coming back to these forums a week ago, so no sweat.



As far as the sword thing goes, if you actively swing a sword at me and connect, then I'm cut. But if the sword is touching me without any kinetic force behind it, then it's just sitting there. If it constantly had it's "cut through anything" effect in play, how could it sit in it's sheath?
So so far we've learned that every "point" being made has a counter-point. Sasuke can copy Kisame's jutsus, but can't use them effectively. Sasuke has the ability to counter and alter high level genjutsu, but that doesn't mean he has any of his own to use. The kusanagi cuts through anything, but we don't know enough about it to say "how", or if Sasuke's is the same build as Orochimaru's. Yet to counter any of your statements, huh? Looks to me like I'm doing fine.

So, quick scenario. I hold out my hand, and you put the point of a sword to my palm. I then push on the end of the sword, the sword will go flying back, and my palm will remain unscathed? Thats awsome. I am goign to try that when I get back home, if I hurt myself, it's your fault.

I dont know how it's shieth would hold it, becuase I was under the impression from that chapter that his sword could only "cut through anything" when he used flowing chidori. Maybe the shieth just holds it st the bottom of the blade and hand guard, and never touches the sharp part of the sword.

The end there I mostly shot down, but anyhow, feel free to rebuttle. I wont be on for a couple days though.

[ninjabot]

No, I was implying exactly what Itachi and Kakashi said in that clip, no more, no less. And I quote:

Kakashi: Only a person with Sharingan can deal with this technique right now...
Itachi: It's true that if you have Sharingan, you can resist this Mangekyou Sharingan alittle. However, you can not counter this special Sharingan eye technique...the illusory technique, Tsukuyomi. Only the person who has the same Bloodline Limit as me, a Sharingan user, can defeat me.

You don't have to take these facts into concideration if it makes it easier for you, that changes nothing.

As far as jutsus with varying levels of chakra go, once again I refer to the anime, take it as you will (I'm sure the same thing happens in the manga however). The first time Sasuke uses Goukakyuu no Jutsu against Kakashi during the bell test, the fireball was about enough to engulf Kakashi alone. When fighting against Naruto in the Valley of the End, the fireball was twice the original size one time, and then he even used smaller bullet sized versions to act as a faster paced projectile. Sandaime did the same thing. Same jutsu, different variations based on chakra output.

Short movie clip? That's what that mind prison thing was he showed him? Even so, it was a short movie clip that he beamed directly into Kabuto's brain. Either he's a telepath, or knows Genjutsu, pick one. Also, with the Kyuubi chakra thing, Kyuubi has a record of escaping his seals. The fact that he appeared outside of the little cage with a sign that says "seal" on it was proof. He was already materializing.

Also, you're right. Kakashi MIGHT have taught the full extent of the Sharingan's usage to Sasuke. Just as Itachi MIGHT have taught Kisame the same thing. Either both are viable, or neither.

And if flowing chidori was necessary to cause the Kusanagi to cut through anything, why would Orochimaru's Kusanagi be haled as a sword that can cut through anything. I'm sure he doesn't know flowing chidori. As for continuing this "debate", what's the point when even links to canon material is ignored so that you won't have to accept their viability? I wonder if I posted links to what the Databooks state, would they be ignored the same as my Youtube link? On top of that, what's to be learned other than:

1:I like Sasuke.
2:You guys don't.
3:Inorder to avoid being wrong, perfectly canon material can just be shoved aside to fit your tastes.
4:The definition of Anti-Fanboyism.

I'm content, it's just I would hope the next time something like this happens it'll be less exhausting.

[Undying]

Short movie clip? That's what that mind prison thing was he showed him? Even so, it was a short movie clip that he beamed directly into Kabuto's brain. Either he's a telepath, or knows Genjutsu, pick one. Also, with the Kyuubi chakra thing, Kyuubi has a record of escaping his seals. The fact that he appeared outside of the little cage with a sign that says "seal" on it was proof. He was already materializing.
Sasuke knows Genjutsu. But, not the high-level you're trying to pin on him. Kiyuubi was already materializing? That was his chakra, not the Kiyuubi himself. Sasuke blocked an alien source of chakra that was empowering Naruto. Kisame is not using an outside source of chakra.

The only people who can block the Charka of a person (not one gained from an outside source such as a Bijuu) are Hyuuga clan members. Sasuke is not a Hyuuga clan member, therefore he cannot "lock down" Kisame's chakra as he did with Kiyuubi, no more than he locked down Naruto's own chakra.
Also, you're right. Kakashi MIGHT have taught the full extent of the Sharingan's usage to Sasuke. Just as Itachi MIGHT have taught Kisame the same thing. Either both are viable, or neither.
Absolutely not. Kakashi MIGHT have taught Sasuke the full extent of Sharingan. Itachi did not teach Kisame anything, Kisame simply saw Itachi fight. See the difference? While Kakashi MAY have given Sasuke information, Kisame gained it whether or not Itachi wanted. I don't think Itachi cared one bit.

And if flowing chidori was necessary to cause the Kusanagi to cut through anything, why would Orochimaru's Kusanagi be haled as a sword that can cut through anything. I'm sure he doesn't know flowing chidori. As for continuing this "debate", what's the point when even links to canon material is ignored so that you won't have to accept their viability? I wonder if I posted links to what the Databooks state, would they be ignored the same as my Youtube link? On top of that, what's to be learned other than:

Orochimaru's sword =\= Sasuke's sword. Sasuke's is a copy that cannot cut anything. It's a mere sword that requires flowing Chidori in order to cut things. Orochimaru's sword is the original one that CAN cut through anything. No relation whatsoever.
1:I like Sasuke.
So what.
2:You guys don't.
Doesn't change anything.
3:Inorder to avoid being wrong, perfectly canon material can just be shoved aside to fit your tastes.

The only person ignoring or confusing canon material is you.
4:The definition of Anti-Fanboyism.
The definition of fanboyism.

[Draffut]

Note: Undying made alot of the same points I did it seams. But I already wrote this, so leaving it how it is.

No, I was implying exactly what Itachi and Kakashi said in that clip, no more, no less. And I quote:
Kakashi: Only a person with Sharingan can deal with this technique right now...
Itachi: It's true that if you have Sharingan, you can resist this Mangekyou Sharingan alittle. However, you can not counter this special Sharingan eye technique...the illusory technique, Tsukuyomi. Only the person who has the same Bloodline Limit as me, a Sharingan user, can defeat me.
You don't have to take these facts into concideration if it makes it easier for you, that changes nothing.

So, if you have a sharingan, you can defend against it "alittle" Nowhere did he say that a full sharingan can counter Tsukiyomi.

You dont have to actually read what is said if it doesn't help your arguement, I guess. It changes nothing.

As far as jutsus with varying levels of chakra go, once again I refer to the anime, take it as you will (I'm sure the same thing happens in the manga however). The first time Sasuke uses Goukakyuu no Jutsu against Kakashi during the bell test, the fireball was about enough to engulf Kakashi alone. When fighting against Naruto in the Valley of the End, the fireball was twice the original size one time, and then he even used smaller bullet sized versions to act as a faster paced projectile. Sandaime did the same thing. Same jutsu, different variations based on chakra output.

You are sure it was in the manga? please put up some manga pics then. It would be great. It you want to go over Katon's, there are tons of them, of many different levels of power. You seam to forget that most of the fights in this series have alot of fodder added to them, that never happened in hte manga.

If you want to argue with Anime facts, take it to that forum please.

Also, most of the Sandaime fight was added in. the stuff about him using a Fire and Earth jutsu mixed was put filler crap that never happened. (which I think is the attack you are refering to)

Short movie clip? That's what that mind prison thing was he showed him? Even so, it was a short movie clip that he beamed directly into Kabuto's brain. Either he's a telepath, or knows Genjutsu, pick one. Also, with the Kyuubi chakra thing, Kyuubi has a record of escaping his seals. The fact that he appeared outside of the little cage with a sign that says "seal" on it was proof. He was already materializing.

I never said he didn't know Genjutsu. Now you are just makign stuff up. I stated he hasn't shown the ability to use high level Genjutsu, which you have yet to prove wrong. He Countered what was a high level jutsu (maybe Genjutsu) and used a far lower level genjutsu. thats about it.

I guess when you pretend I say stuff that was never stated, then coutner that, it makes arguing easy.

Yes, the seal is weakening. what's your point? He wasn't fully materialized or anything, and the seal was only partially ripped off. He is slowly breakign out, but not a large amount. Also, he points out that "The Sharingan's energy is more evil then my own" or somethign along those lines, alluding to the fact that they are somehow connected. Which woudl explain how he could supress the sealed Kyuubi. Still doesn't show he is able to seal anyone's chakra. The Hyuuga's bloodline does that, and it's the reason that Kakashi stated that the Byakugan is better then hte Sharingan in some ways.

P.S. What record of escaping seals does Kyuubi have?

Also, you're right. Kakashi MIGHT have taught the full extent of the Sharingan's usage to Sasuke. Just as Itachi MIGHT have taught Kisame the same thing. Either both are viable, or neither.

I never mentioned this either way. But I dont see the point. Kisame has been traveling with Itachi, seeing his jutsu's and the limits (or lack thereof), for many years. Sasuke trained under Kakashi for around one year. Most of which wasn't dedicated to Sasuke at all. I dont see how those are the same thign by any streach of the imagination. One could have easily just happened to see the other use it many, many, many times over the course of many years (Unless Itachi was purposly hiding it from Kisame, which is silly). The other, it may have not come up to much in that manner. It may have been somethign he was goign to teach Sasuke later when he finished developing the full sharingan. we have no idea. Though, I still dont see how it matters.

And if flowing chidori was necessary to cause the Kusanagi to cut through anything, why would Orochimaru's Kusanagi be haled as a sword that can cut through anything. I'm sure he doesn't know flowing chidori. As for