Byakuya vs. Toshiro

[diamondedge]

but the bottom line still remains that byakuya went all out on ichigo to personally kill him with his blade. his resolve started to change somewhere between ichigo stopping ogichi, n ichigo saying he would still fight the rules no matter what. so even with those psychological studies (about emotions, etc...) that you previously posted, the best you can do is conclude that hakuteiken <= TZ.
Read my posts.
I am not arguing if Byakuya went all out, at all. I am not arguing weather Byakuya intended to kill Ichigo, at all.

If you still don't get it, then read again. If you still don't get it, buy yourself a psychology book and study the Maslow theory and chapters about motivation. And realize that it is exactly what you read in my posts.

[Undying]

when referring to ichigo having no chance n needing to back away, r u talkin about right before ogichi came out? if not, where did that statement come from (ch/ep)?

unless you're referrin to ch161, where byakuya bluntly tells ichigo that although his sword is strong, his speed isn't enough to counter/dodge kageyoshi.

is the other part of it (regarding laws, etc...) after the final clash? if so then it's because ichigo already beat him, and their deal was he'd tell ichigo his reason for wanting to execute rukia. after which he agreed to stop pursuing her (duh, he still had the ability to shunpo away; he clearly could've gone after renji if he wanted to).
After the first attack by SKY, yes.

If Byakuya had been trying to kill him, why did he tell him to back away and started the bad-guy monologue. Nah. Byakuya wasn't trying to kill Ichigo. And he was hoping that Rukia would get away.

[smach]

@dia: so...what was ur point? that psychology classes n experiments prove byakuya's thought process led him to...not motivated enuff to kill coz he wanted to save his sister? throughout the entire fight, things like resolve n the like weren't even goin through byakuya's head. they were, but it's not like he wasn't acting on his oath. he already watched his sister die once (although ichigo stopped the process) and his oath obliged him to follow through with the execution, no matter what.

from what i understood, you make it sound like he was torn between worlds the whole time, which in not the whole case. even though he was obligated to hisana, he was also obligated to family n his dead parents, whose oaths he had already broket twice. n seeing how loyal he is, it should be clear that he would've gone through with it, but prolly would've still felt the guilt inside. but that's just me.

@Undy: byakuya told ichigo he's too slow to conter/evade sebonzakura coz bya's bankai "is able to attack with its countless blades from all directions. ichigo says out loud that it was illogical for him to try beating sebonzakura with only his initial release. byakuya tells ichigo to watch his words, to which ichigo replies that he HAS bankai. so byakuya is like "w00t!?" n ichigo is like "actions speak louder than words" n releases.

[Undying]

@Undy: byakuya told ichigo he's too slow to conter/evade sebonzakura coz bya's bankai "is able to attack with its countless blades from all directions. ichigo says out loud that it was illogical for him to try beating sebonzakura with only his initial release. byakuya tells ichigo to watch his words, to which ichigo replies that he HAS bankai. so byakuya is like "w00t!?" n ichigo is like "actions speak louder than words" n releases.
Your point?

[smach]

After the first attack by SKY, yes.

If Byakuya had been trying to kill him, why did he tell him to back away and started the bad-guy monologue. Nah. Byakuya wasn't trying to kill Ichigo. And he was hoping that Rukia would get away.byakuya told ichigo he's too slow to conter/evade sebonzakura coz bya's bankai "is able to attack with its countless blades from all directions. ichigo says out loud that it was illogical for him to try beating sebonzakura with only his initial release. byakuya tells ichigo to watch his words, to which ichigo replies that he HAS bankai. so byakuya is like "w00t!?" n ichigo is like "actions speak louder than words" n releases.our point?i'm not seeing where u got the idea that byakuya is telling ichigo to back off n starting bad-guy monologue anywhere.

[diamondedge]

You have CONFIRMED and admitted the importance of motivation in a fight, and I elaborated it further, because I happen to know a lot about it, since I studied it. My RL claims are easily proven in chapter 179. I seriously don't get what your problem is.

[Undying]

i'm not seeing where u got the idea that byakuya is telling ichigo to back off n starting bad-guy monologue anywhere.

"Fighting me is hopeless, without bankai you can't beat me".

Bad guy monologue on his superiority and how it is hopeless for Ichigo to fight him because Ichigo does not have the power.

[smach]

as in when he told ichigo his shikai is strong but he's not fast enough to evade?

@dia: i got the impression you believe he was not motivated from the begining, as in he wasn't fighting seriously before ogichi came out.

[Undying]

as in when he told ichigo his shikai is strong but he's not fast enough to evade?


So what's your point? That's what I am saying, he told Ichigo that further fighting would be useless because he does not have the speed to avoid (i.e., lacks the necessary power to defeat him - it's the usual badguy monologue about their superiority).

[diamondedge]

@dia: i got the impression you believe he was not motivated from the begining, as in he wasn't fighting seriously before ogichi came out.

*clap clap*
There was no motivation towards the action(fight) from the moment he was told Rukia will be executed.

[smach]

So what's your point? That's what I am saying, he told Ichigo that further fighting would be useless because he does not have the speed to avoid (i.e., lacks the necessary power to defeat him - it's the usual badguy monologue about their superiority).byakuya telling ichigo he's not fast enough to counter/evade sebonzakura petals doesn't translate to "back away, i don't want to kill you."

[Undying]

byakuya telling ichigo he's not fast enough to counter/evade sebonzakura petals doesn't translate to "back away, i don't want to kill you."
:facepalm: No, it translates to "back away, you stand no chance".

Byakuya wants to kill someone and tells them they don't stand a chance? Do you usually tell someone you're about to kill they should run away?

[smach]

so he was telling ichigo he should run away coz he was getting weak, and also praying that someone would save ichigo from his sword slash? yea, that makes much sense.

you guyz make it sound like he was trying to save rukia, even though he swore on his parent's grave to stick to his last oath. if he was telling ichigo to run or trying to save rukia then he would've either told ichigo to go get rukia, or he would've put her into hiding himself. what do you think he would've done if ichigo didn't have bankai, nor the strength to get back up? he would've gone ahead and killed him, just like he was planning to do before ogichi came out.

i don't entirely agree with dia's idea but it holds truth in it when it comes to the last clash that destroyed byakuya's blade.

[diamondedge]

i don't entirely agree with dia's idea but it holds truth in it when it comes to the last clash that destroyed byakuya's blade.

"I don't agree" does not negate or counter my arguments (which I have provided, several times).

Prove the opposite, or my point stands starting from the point Byakuya was told Rukia will be executed.

[Undying]

so he was telling ichigo he should run away coz he was getting weak, and also praying that someone would save ichigo from his sword slash? yea, that makes much sense.

you guyz make it sound like he was trying to save rukia, even though he swore on his parent's grave to stick to his last oath. if he was telling ichigo to run or trying to save rukia then he would've either told ichigo to go get rukia, or he would've put her into hiding himself. what do you think he would've done if ichigo didn't have bankai, nor the strength to get back up? he would've gone ahead and killed him, just like he was planning to do before ogichi came out.

i don't entirely agree with dia's idea but it holds truth in it when it comes to the last clash that destroyed byakuya's blade.

Actually, Byakuya was doing two things at the same time. Trying to fight Ichigo and at the same time save Rukia (which is what dia is arguing really, his motivation was split in two).

And I don't know how did you get to that point, I believe I quite clearly stated that Byakuya wasn't trying to kill Ichigo - he stopped after a single attack and let Ichigo get up (as opposed to what most villains in Bleach did so far, turning their back and walking away because they are convinced they won - Byakuya has purposefully stopped his attack).

The rest of your "what ifs" doesn't change anything. Who knows what would have happened.
he would've gone ahead and killed him, just like he was planning to do before ogichi came out.
:Haha

"Kurosaki Ichigo, I will kill you". Haven't I quite clearly stated that when he actually began wanting to kill Ichigo, he proceeded to do so? :whatevah:

[smach]

the only time we are actually shown byakuya's having any form of calm/moral/peaceful thoughts is when he realises ichigo doesn't intend to kill him. having a degree in psychology is not equivalent to having a one-on-one session with the byakuya, where he reveals he was not set on following the rules, and saving rukia too. it is true that byakuya had his inner objections to his sister's execution, but the fact is that until he talked to ichigo, he was set on following the rules n finishing her off. his resolve may not have been 100% like ichigo who swore to his soul, but his decision ATM was sticking with the last oath (i can't afford to break the rules anymore) and in so doing, reached the conclusion that rules > feelings (if i don't abide by them, then who will?). in conclusion, byakuya's opinion regarding the issue was changed to saving rukia when he spoke to ichigo at the end of the fight (which is why he decides not to pursue rukia anymore). it was later strengthened when unohana's VC informed everyone of the traitors that were responsible for all the torment he was forced to endure .

other than luppi, i can't recall any villains in bleach who just pwned ppl n left them for dead. zaraki did, but ichigo was clearly kept alive n able to fight thanks to zangetsu. ulquiorra left ichigo for dead after putting a hole in his chest coz...ichigo was literally dead. byakuya left ichigo for dead in rukongai coz...ichigo was literally dead. noitora left zaraki for dead coz he wasn't even twitching.
IMO his resolve my not have been that strong.

we haven't seen kageyoshi continuously attack an immobile opponent. it follows them around till it suceeds in hitting them. from what we've seen so far, it doesn't keep recycling the petals to continuously hit the opponent. it's possible that byakuya can make it do that sort of thing but until we see him do it, you can't just come out and say it can. from what we've seen, the attack was successful n ichi couldn't do anything about it.

the only time byakuya told someone to not resist is when he beat renji, whose fate had been sealed by the involuntary dissapearance of his bankai. at that point, further resistance would've been as futile as it was for ichigo back in rukongai. but renji keeps struggling, so byakuya directs a dozen senkei swords n tells renji he'll dice him into pieces with his sword if he keeps struggling. he forms four incomplete ones in midair above renji's head n reminds renji that he's already dying, and says he'll kill him even sooner if he stands. he then asks renji if he still wishes to save rukia....to which renji says he will coz he made a pact with his soul. then he somehow destroys all the senkei swords, which shocks byakuya, n renji is able to touch byakuya...but he reaches his limit n falls to the ground right after his sword makes contact.

[Undying]

the only time we are actually shown byakuya's having any form of calm/moral/peaceful thoughts is when he realises ichigo doesn't intend to kill him. having a degree in psychology is not equivalent to having a one-on-one session with the byakuya, where he reveals he was not set on following the rules, and saving rukia too. it is true that byakuya had his inner objections to his sister's execution, but the fact is that until he talked to ichigo, he was set on following the rules n finishing her off. his resolve may not have been 100% like ichigo who swore to his soul, but his decision ATM was sticking with the last oath (i can't afford to break the rules anymore) and in so doing, reached the conclusion that rules > feelings (if i don't abide by them, then who will?). in conclusion, byakuya's opinion regarding the issue was changed to saving rukia when he spoke to ichigo at the end of the fight (which is why he decides not to pursue rukia anymore). it was later strengthened when unohana's VC informed everyone of the traitors that were responsible for all the torment he was forced to endure .

other than luppi, i can't recall any villains in bleach who just pwned ppl n left them for dead. zaraki did, but ichigo was clearly kept alive n able to fight thanks to zangetsu. ulquiorra left ichigo for dead after putting a hole in his chest coz...ichigo was literally dead. byakuya left ichigo for dead in rukongai coz...ichigo was literally dead. noitora left zaraki for dead coz he wasn't even twitching.
IMO his resolve my not have been that strong.

we haven't seen kageyoshi continuously attack an immobile opponent. it follows them around till it suceeds in hitting them. from what we've seen so far, it doesn't keep recycling the petals to continuously hit the opponent. it's possible that byakuya can make it do that sort of thing but until we see him do it, you can't just come out and say it can. from what we've seen, the attack was successful n ichi couldn't do anything about it.

the only time byakuya told someone to not resist is when he beat renji, whose fate had been sealed by the involuntary dissapearance of his bankai. at that point, further resistance would've been as futile as it was for ichigo back in rukongai. but renji keeps struggling, so byakuya directs a dozen senkei swords n tells renji he'll dice him into pieces with his sword if he keeps struggling. he forms four incomplete ones in midair above renji's head n reminds renji that he's already dying, and says he'll kill him even sooner if he stands. he then asks renji if he still wishes to save rukia....to which renji says he will coz he made a pact with his soul. then he somehow destroys all the senkei swords, which shocks byakuya, n renji is able to touch byakuya...but he reaches his limit n falls to the ground right after his sword makes contact.

Long... useless... essay.

Thanks for repeating everything that happened, captain obvious.

Byakuya wasn't trying to kill Ichigo with his first attack. When he was trying to kill Ichigo, he set out to do so with a sword in hand.

I'm not saying he was hoping Ichigo would beat him, I'm not saying he secretly agreed with Ichigo, I'm saying he wasn't trying to kill Ichigo.

What don't you get about not trying to kill someone?

And all villains in Bleach simply walk away when they pwn someone (Zaraki, Byakuya in their first encounter, Ulqiorra, Luppi, Nnoitora etc.). Byakuya stopped attacking and waited for Ichigo.

Why he did it is not my business. My argument is and was, Byakuya wasn't trying to kill Ichigo until after he used Senkei.

[diamondedge]

the only time we are actually shown byakuya's having any form of calm/moral/peaceful thoughts is when he realises ichigo doesn't intend to kill him. having a degree in psychology is not equivalent to having a one-on-one session with the byakuya, where he reveals he was not set on following the rules, and saving rukia too. it is true that byakuya had his inner objections to his sister's execution, but the fact is that until he talked to ichigo, he was set on following the rules n finishing her off.
But of course. But he was has he was shown to place more importance in the feelings than his own rules, so naturally inner conflict unconsciously held him back. Of course nobody can preform 100% when they are doing something they in fact don't want to do.

his resolve may not have been 100% like ichigo who swore to his soul, but his decision ATM was sticking with the last oath (i can't afford to break the rules anymore) and in so doing, reached the conclusion that rules > feelings (if i don't abide by them, then who will?). in conclusion, byakuya's opinion regarding the issue was changed to saving rukia when he spoke to ichigo at the end of the fight (which is why he decides not to pursue rukia anymore). it was later strengthened when unohana's VC informed everyone of the traitors that were responsible for all the torment he was forced to endure .
I agree wholeheartedly about everything. The only part I argued is the resolve, the resolve that shattered Byakuya's blade (which happened before Byakuya changed his mind) was the key to victory, but it was not until Ichigo spoke to him after his explanation and reasonings for following the rules that made Byakuya go with his heart. :)
"My blade was shattered by this free spiritedness of yours."
" I was never his enemy. From the beginning, he was the rules of Soul Society itself."

Byakuya HAD to be the rule of SS, because that is what he is there for, but Byakuya broke the rules, for his own sake before. Meaning, rules were never a top priority for him, but for the 3rd time he went with the rules , because he could not afford another slip. If we went with the rules, does not mean he has accepted the idea inside himself, when he obviously didn't. Which leads us to the conclusion you have summed up in the first sentence - resolve and therefore his performance could not have been near 100%, even though he went all out. Meaning, what Ichigo faced was not the best of Byakuya.

we haven't seen kageyoshi continuously attack an immobile opponent.
We have seen Kageyoshi continuously attack a moving opponent. I doubt you are saying SKY would have harder time hitting an immobile opponent than opponent that is moving?

it's possible that byakuya can make it do that sort of thing but until we see him do it, you can't just come out and say it can.
Neither can you, yet you did, "it simply can't."

[smach]

Byakuya wasn't trying to kill Ichigo with his first attack. When he was trying to kill Ichigo, he set out to do so with a sword in hand.

I'm not saying he was hoping Ichigo would beat him, I'm not saying he secretly agreed with Ichigo, I'm saying he wasn't trying to kill Ichigo.

What don't you get about not trying to kill someone?since they started swinging swords, byakuya made a point clearly noting noting he would kill ichigo, no go through with the exectuion.

And all villains in Bleach simply walk away when they pwn someone (Zaraki, Byakuya in their first encounter, Ulqiorra, Luppi, Nnoitora etc.). Byakuya stopped attacking and waited for Ichigo.as i mentioned before, they walked away coz the opponent was downed n showed no signs of getting back up. ichigo takes kageyoshi headon and admits it was stupid to think his shikai would be enough.

Why he did it is not my business. My argument is and was, Byakuya wasn't trying to kill Ichigo until after he used Senkei.which does not comply with byakuya's actions n choice of words prior to stepping up to senkei.

But of course. But he was has he was shown to place more importance in the feelings than his own rules, so naturally inner conflict unconsciously held him back. Of course nobody can preform 100% when they are doing something they in fact don't want to do.which is why we disagree: you believe his resolve to kill ichigo n save rukia was always shakey, while i believe it only got shakey after he realised ichigo's not fighting to harm/kill him.

I agree wholeheartedly about everything. The only part I argued is the resolve, the resolve that shattered Byakuya's blade (which happened before Byakuya changed his mind) was the key to victory, but it was not until Ichigo spoke to him after his explanation and reasonings for following the rules that made Byakuya go with his heart. :)
"My blade was shattered by this free spiritedness of yours."
" I was never his enemy. From the beginning, he was the rules of Soul Society itself."

Byakuya HAD to be the rule of SS, because that is what he is there for, but Byakuya broke the rules, for his own sake before. Meaning, rules were never a top priority for him, but for the 3rd time he went with the rules , because he could not afford another slip. If we went with the rules, does not mean he has accepted the idea inside himself, when he obviously didn't. Which leads us to the conclusion you have summed up in the first sentence - resolve and therefore his performance could not have been near 100%, even though he went all out. Meaning, what Ichigo faced was not the best of Byakuya.apparently there were rules against marrying and/or adopting a peasant into the family. those feelings were also shared by a majority of the the family members, for they believed it would degrade/tarnish their name/pride. byakuya himself also believes in these "holier than thou" ideals, which is why after fulfilling the dying wishes of his loved one, he swore over his parents' graves that he would abide by the rules from then on and enforce them with no intolerance, regardless of the consequences. 50yrs later rukia gets sentenced to death by execution for giving her powers to a ryoka, which presents an internal conflict to byakuya. but regardless of that, his resolve to enforce the rules remains solid, till when he discovers ichigo doesn't view him as an enemy, nor does he harbor any ill will against him. the main point is that byakuya's resolve only faded at the last minute, unlike like renji n others, who were skeptical about the overly harsh punishment from the start.

we haven't seen kageyoshi continuously attack an immobile opponent. it follows them around till it suceeds in hitting them. from what we've seen so far, it doesn't keep recycling the petals to continuously hit the opponent. it's possible that byakuya can make it do that sort of thing but until we see him do it, you can't just come out and say it can. from what we've seen, the attack was successful n ichi couldn't do anything about it.
We have seen Kageyoshi continuously attack a moving opponent. I doubt you are saying SKY would have harder time hitting an immobile opponent than opponent that is moving?that wasn't even directed at you...unless you're the one who was saying that byakuya stopped his attack on ichigo, even though it's clear the sebonzakura landed its blow.

Neither can you, yet you did, "it simply can't."can't recall saying that, but - like i said - until we see him do it...

[diamondedge]

since they started swinging swords, byakuya made a point clearly noting noting he would kill ichigo, no go through with the exectuion.
"I will crush you will my blade then with my own hands I will carry out Rukia's execution"

which is why we disagree: you believe his resolve to kill ichigo n save rukia was always shakey, while i believe it only got shakey after he realised ichigo's not fighting to harm/kill him.
"When your execution was decided I NO LONGER KNEW which path to follow."

Meaning: However would he decide, it would result in inner conflict.

can't recall saying that, but - like i said - until we see him do it...
"Byakuya can't cut any Espada 6th or above."
You said that - repeatedly.

[smach]

"I will crush you will my blade then with my own hands I will carry out Rukia's execution"where's your translation from?
dattebayo: kurosaki ichigo, i will kill you. rukia will go through the execution again, this time by my own hand.
manga-rain: kurosaki ichigo, i will kill you. then with my own hands, i will carry out rukia's execution.

"When your execution was decided I NO LONGER KNEW which path to follow."

Meaning: However would he decide, it would result in inner conflict.yet he killed ichigo once, attempted to do it again on the bridge, killed renji once, n told ichigo that he'll kill him n execute rukia with his own hands. like i said before, his composure n attitude only changes when he realizes ichigo harbored no ill will against him, which is after he stops ogichis violent rampage. it's clear that byakuya's will is what made his sword dissipate, which means is that at their peak, ichigo n byakuya were on the same level...but ichigo had more resolve. hence byakuya admitting defeat to the free-spiritedness of ichigo's blade.

"Byakuya can't cut any Espada 6th or above."
You said that - repeatedly.yea, in the other thread...

here it's strictly about kageyoshi continuously pursuing a target it's already hit, and there's still no proof that byakuya actually stopped the attack. kageyoshi pursues its target till it hits. it doesn't keep hitting the same target over n over, so until there's actual proof that it does...

[diamondedge]

Since when Byakuya killed Ichigo for the first time before Rukia's sentence was going to be executed.

Did Byakuya kill Renji?
No, he even fking said he is holding BACK.
On the bridge - he is nobody, Byakuya's sword isn't made to be crushed by nobodies. As far as I know, the bridge was about power gap.

And FYI, our translations are literally the same. :rolleye09

[The sunlight]

Wow..I hope you guys realise the uselesness of the last 3-4 pages :p
I mean..wasn't this about toshiro and byakuya ?

Bottom line of this thread : Toshiro will lose to byakuya the way he is now everytime. Give toshiro as much experience as byakuya, and let him master his bankai. Then he might beat him . So i will admit my defeat.
But, I still believe that if toshiro matures in his powers and experience, he could win. (using ice and reaction speed)

[smach]

don't mind us, just carry on with your daily activities and all will be fine.

Since when Byakuya killed Ichigo for the first time before Rukia's sentence was going to be executed.yup...good point.

Did Byakuya kill Renji?
No, he even fking said he is holding BACK.so renji was wrong in assuming byakuya's shikai would kill him, even though we saw that ganjyu would've ceased to exist if it wasn't for ukitake stepping in (ch116). and renji's life was also not saved by unohana, even though the disappearance of one's bankai against their will is a tell-tale sign that their life will end soon. but the fact that even his sealed sword broke into pieces without byakuya's help is proof that byakuya didn't intend to kill renji.

n where did byakuya even say anything about holding back? i only remember him saying renji won't even succeed in making his knee touch the ground. i also recall him telling renji he should be proud that his body even retains a human form...and when renji stands up, congratulates him for even being able to still breathe, but also says he'll carve him into pieces if hie resists any further.

but this is all waay too much that i'm doing just to prove/state what was covered in the span of three chapters. if you have any objections then show me which pages of ch141-143 indicate that byakuya didn't intend to kill renji, or that he said he's actually holding back.

On the bridge - he is nobody, Byakuya's sword isn't made to be crushed by nobodies. As far as I know, the bridge was about power gap.exactly. yoruichi prevented byakuya from using shikai on ichigo coz he wouldn't stand a chance, and later explains to him that he's not even close to being able to beat byakuya at his current level. ichigo could see byakuya's shunpo but still couldn't counter it. his maxed out slash would undoubtedly cause major damage but byakuya would still be able to dodge it, and it would also leave ichigo with close to no strength left to even pose a threat to shikai byakuya.

And FYI, our translations are literally the same. :rolleye09crushing someone's sword means defeating it, like ichigo did to byakuya's bankai n shikai as well. it is not the same as saying you'll kill someone or dice them into pieces by your own sword.



EDIT: regarding rukia's execution, didn't rukia (or someone else) mention the consequences of giving a human your powers? and weren't the orders to capture her or hill her? the penalty was already known. renji was going to finish her off, and byakuya didn't do a thing about it. he was set on following the rules, which is why he appologises to rukia in the end. in short, their resolve was always the same; it's their perspective on things that changed.

[Sin]

A fight between Byakuya and Toshiro while both are in Shikai would be interesting but In bankai Byakuya would take it.

Toshiro would lose to pretty much anyone else in Bankai for that matter. Except maybe Ikaku

[davidn15]

But, I still believe that if toshiro matures in his powers and experience, he could win. (using ice and reaction speed)


I'm not so sure. I mean once he matures he'll be quite a bit stronger, but still he wouldn't be suited to fighting Byakuya. Senbonzakura's too quick, Hitsugaya would never be able too keep up. He'd be able to put up more of a fight, but he would still lose.

[Rainl]

......wtf? As of right now, byakuya drops hitsu without a problem, srry.

[Nowitzki]

Byakuya takes this. I don't know why this thread was revived.

/Closed