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Unholy
07-02-2007, 08:00 AM
Religion, is it helping, or hurting?

Warning: If you are going to be a little ***** about the contents of this article, then don’t read it. I’ve warned you, you can’t take offence to this article, it is well reasoned, thought out, and provided in the most succinct and straight forward way possible. If you can provide counter arguments in such a well presented manner then I would be willing to hear you out.

People seem to think that Atheists, or to a less extreme extent, I’ll include agnostics, have life easy. They don’t follow a determined religion or faith, they don’t have to abide by these special rules depicted by a holy doctrine, they don’t have to keep days holy or repent for their sins. In fact, if there is no god, there would be no sin at all, removing this moral restriction put in place by this all seeing entity to give mankind a moral balance.

This on first appearance, may seem to be an attack on religion, putting restrictions on people lives, it however is not an attack, but showing that despite these restrictions, following a religion is an easy path. For starters, religion makes up the biggest part of the world. With the band of Atheists/Agnostics being between 15 and 20 percent of the world’s population, on a ‘religion vs. not’ comparison, it is easily the minority. This leads to the question of how many people who follow a religion are there because they made an educated decision, or because the people around them did it, a large scale form of peer pressure causing people to not just follow something but actually put their entire being into believing something just because others do, without even realizing it.

I was raised as a Christian boy, I went to church on Sundays, I went to a Christian school and I took religious classes. We started the day with morning prayer, we sang songs to the lord and we listened to scripture and learnt about the wonders of God. Then I reached the age of around 11, where people start to question these belief systems so religion fights back. I was brought forward many stories about God healing the sick, or things disproving evolution. In fact, my school refused to teach us evolution ‘because it was against their beliefs” I wasn’t even given the choice to hear the other side of the story. I was even told stories of “devil workers” that had actual super human powers because of their evil. Honest, these stories were told as truth, as happening to a teacher of mine, and for shortness sake, I won’t go into the entire thing.

So here I was, oblivious to the outside, used to affirming my belief with “I have faith” and “I wasn’t pond scum” and “If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys today, why aren’t they evolving?” These are actual statements I had heard from teachers and others of my religious faith that I had adopted also as my evidence towards my beliefs. It wasn’t until I changed from my Private Christian school to a higher education public school that I was exposed to outside influence.

This could have been the devil tricking me, I however wasn’t presented a devil wrapped gift to tempt me from my path of righteousness, but a logical and well presented argument. It was so well developed and made so much sense, that my deep faith of the majority of my life, was already beginning to be persuaded. As I learnt the actual theory of evolution, I began to see just how ignorant those that had taught me previously had been. They were preaching the word of god, without even knowing the other side. What became important to me, was not whether there was a God or not, but seeking the truth.

If there was to indeed be an afterlife, it should be an essential part of life, obtaining access would be key. If this life is so short, surely eternity is far more important. With my exposure to evolutionary science, I did not see it as evidence that there was no God, nor did I see it as immediately true, but what I did see was that I was a really good explanation for something far beyond our comprehension.

As I got older and became I’d say, a little more cynical, I began to see just how often humans will find a supernatural cause for anything that they don’t immediately understand. Ghosts, Psychics, all that super natural higher than us assorted things, all are attempts by humans to explain something that isn’t immediately apparent to them. Being a great lover of magic as I was young, and refreshed to this day, it is easy to make an elaborate assumption for something that in principal was quite simple. If a card is lost in the deck, then located, the obvious conclusion is not that it was magic, but that the card was never actually lost. Yet with magic this is obvious, this is well known, and yet we subdue ourselves to believe and just enjoy the show at having no idea how we were deceived, yet we know we were.

This is where things get dangerous, when we are being deceived without us even knowing it. If you believe that Ghosts are real, and that you can actually contact the dead, then this supporting evidence will probably hold no value for you, and I am not here to try and debunk these beliefs as many people over the years have shown the ways of these industries to be fraudulent, yet people will still refuse to believe it is all a scam. These industries, use the unknown to their advantage, taking common principals and using them on the oblivious for personal gain. They are basically selfish magicians, taking the wonder and showmanship out of magic, and turning it into a vile and disgusting mutation of what would be a form of entertainment into a much more sinister approach leeching of the unknowing.

You may be wondering what this has to do with religion. If you are wondering this, then you have probably missed my point entirely. If religion is simply another easy explanation that humans believe because there is no proof against it, then this is cause for major concern. How would you feel if you were conned? Most people have probably fallen for a con in their life, tricked into believing a lie, or paying for something bogus, it happens every day. Of course, the best con, is one that you never actually understand that you are being conned.

If you were trying to con someone to do something you wanted them to do, there would be a number of ways to do this. Firstly you would appear to be a good guy, someone with a moral background so that people will easily trust you. Then once you have that person on side, you would offer them your point on view on things. Then whenever you encounter questions that would expose your con, you would say “Don’t worry about it” or “Everything is sorted” or “That doesn’t matter”. Meanwhile you would make out that you need to spread your ideas to others. This requires transport, accommodation, food, etc, so that they should give you money if they want to help you spread the word. Then you do this a number of times, and eventually you can stop spreading the word and they start coming to you.

To me, religion marks a striking resemblance to a con. You are taught something, usually like myself from a very young age, then when you question these ideas you are given often incorrect rebuttals offered as fact or are forced to remain oblivious and told that all will be ok as long as you have faith. Faith is not something I have a problem with, it’s blind faith that I have the problem with. I have no problem having faith that my mother would leave me to die on the side of the street, I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, I have faith that probably no one will ever read this but myself in a few years time when I stumble upon this and wonder what I was smoking at the time.

Religion doesn’t however offer faith in that sense, a faith based on previous experience. If offers blind faith, faith that should not only be unconditional but has no previous belief behind it. I will try and avoid pointing out the numerous inconsistencies with Christianity, such as praying for what you need, but if God gives you what you need, there is no point asking, and praying is actually a selfish act whether praying for yourself or for others. Praying would be trying to change God’s predetermined plans, and questioning God is without doubt a bad idea. Now that I’ve got that out of my system I will point out why religion doesn’t offer a basis for the faith.

I will use Christianity for a basis for most of this as it is the one I have had direct contact with and know the most about and I wish to remain as factual as I can to avoid assuming things. However most religions are quiet similar in structure and for those religions which aren’t, then they don’t’ share the characteristics that I find appalling with religion and are thus exempt from any of the ramblings in this document.

In Christianity you are given the Bible which although there is no actual evidence showing that any of it was specifically written at the time, nor that whether it is metaphorical, or literal. In fact very little is known about the specific validity of the bible when account events, considering great portions of the bible are songs, dreams, and written in collaboration by many people. Some would consider the bible like a old age Wikipedia, though sworn on by some, all Wikipedia articles are read with an air of caution because we know that anyone could have modified it at any time to say anything and unless its “Steve smells like ass” it could actually be quiet believable, but be the opposite to truth. The mere fact the bible is so inconsistent when it comes to what is good and what is bad, and many other things, would seem to be evidence to support this outlook that the Bible can hardly be seen as a solid source of evidence towards the religion.

Other than the bible the only evidence put forth is life. That God made life, because life is so complicated it couldn’t have possibly been created by chance. However, this is assuming God made life. It would be like stumbling into an inventors office only to find him dead, with no proof that he invented the things inside the office, it would be easy to take credit for them and no one would question it. There is no actual proof that God made life, he just simply happened to be there at the time. Man saw life, and didn’t find a creator for it, so man created the creator. Since whether or not created life is purely speculation it would seem apparent that there is actually no evidence towards the religion at all, and that total blind faith is required.

So what’s wrong with blind faith? The fact it’s based on ignorance. It’s not based on knowledge or fore-sight or any of the higher reasoning skills that separate us from the other species on the planet, it is based on absolutely nothing. You are supposed to believe, and that is it, then you are supposed to argue for this belief with no actual substantial evidence so you simply challenge people to prove you are wrong, rather than proving you are right. In law you are innocent until proven guilty. You are innocent, and they must prove that you committed the crime. In religion, they claim that they are right, then leave everyone else to prove them wrong. Assuming, that because no one can disprove the existence of God, that God must exist. This idea appears to be absolutely ridiculous to me, and how the majority of the planet can believe it I cannot fathom, yet people seem to think that because there is no evidence disproving their faith that their faith must be valid.

This leads into those that believe just because it is convenient. If there is a heaven, and you’re an atheist, you don’t get in (this is ignoring whether or not there is a hell or not). If you’re a Christian and there is no heaven, then you don’t lose anything. So really, being a Christian is really a get out of jail free card; you never lose, you just don’t win. This is actually one of the things that held me onto my beliefs for so long, I figured that I may not totally believe in God, but believing in him couldn’t really hurt. The reason I finally abandoned these ideas is because I realized that ignorant stance that it couldn’t hurt was exactly what caused problems.

The religious high ground is what appears to be holding back humanity. Science, having to constantly battle with the overwhelming opposition of the religious community has been held back for centuries. You may claim that this is because scientists are amoral and that they are trying to play God. You see, if there is no God, than man is not playing God, but doing what God fails to do. If there is no God, man must provide what God refuses to, and do what he must to obtain survival. This would appear arrogant, self-righteous, or whatever you may feel, but looking through history other than the initial creation of the planet, everything we have today, man has made himself. You can claim God inspired man, or created that man for that task, but man has been looking after himself, and must continue to do so if he like every other species wishes to survive.

This would bring us back to my very first mentioning that atheists are free of moral restrictions in place by religion. Atheists however are generally not the ones that are just blindly following something they are told, atheists not only have to actively pursue the knowledge and evidence, but they must work twice as hard because being a science, questioning evolution is allowed, it’s not a taboo. These people want to know the truth because the truth is what will help mankind. They do not ignore God to be free from moral restriction, but they ignore god because the idea is holding back mankind.

Mankind has almost globally ignored all the Gods before our time: Egyptian, Greek, Roman, etc have all been considered fake gods. Almost ridiculous gods, laughable even “Sun God, hah!” yet there is a magical acceptance for the one god that you believe in, for some reason, that god isn’t ridiculous but he is majestic and all powerful. This belief in the fact that we should not question God is holding back science into the new frontiers because modern science is a lot like playing God. If it providing new things thought as impossible, or super human, and this is causing outrage that it is amoral to do such things.

How it can be seen that healing people can be considered evil I will never understand. Or moving into new fields never before conceived, can be considered amoral, or evil. I just want to see the best for mankind, I don’t want us to be held back by belief systems that are archaic. Reasonable in the days before there was science, but with science rapidly trying to make sense of the world, cutting it off to a belief in God not only seems ignorant but out right dangerous to the good of the species. If there is a God, and there is a Hell, I will proudly burn there for eternity for my beliefs, because if there is indeed a God that requires blind faith to prove loyalty, hindering man kinds development, then I say there has to be something seriously wrong with that God.

I will end this here, because well it’s a draft, so I can always add more later so it doesn’t really matter. All in all however I believe that this is plenty to prove my beliefs that are easily apparent now towards religion and may offer an understanding not only into my belief, but perhaps lead you to at least question your own, for I do not seek to destroy God, simply question him.

Icestorm
07-02-2007, 08:13 AM
What you said about Peer pressure.. I think that, that only means they are more likely to drop it in the future due to seeing to a lesser extent no point in it.

Unholy
07-02-2007, 08:16 AM
What you said about Peer pressure.. I think that, that only means they are more likely to drop it in the future due to seeing to a lesser extent no point in it.

No, one you have a belief system developed you actually believe it and changing it is very difficult from that point on. People may not be practicing in thier religion due to busy lives or dont see the point, but they will still pray when things go bad, or put that they are religious on the census information.

DJ_Ryoma
07-02-2007, 08:19 AM
You make excellent points...I take the same stance as you for the most part...however I must disagree on some points, but before I make my comment clarify me on something...are you just criticizing religion or the whole concept of the possibility that a Higher Being actually exists?
I'm kinda lazy so i'll just quote myself on a post that expounds my views on the religious debate...
The fact of the matter is that the posed question is unanswerable pure and simple. Debating about it can lead to exploring some interesting philosophical concepts, but ultimately there is no answer that we can arrive to while we are still alive. The main reason that makes this debate one that will never be resolved is the fact that the two factions (religious and non-religious) will never convince each other through considerate and logical reasoning. Why? Because as much as the non-religious people try to convince the believers of the non-existence of god through reasoning (often supported by the lack of scientific and empirical evidence), the religious people will never abandon their beliefs, for the simple reason that they do not require evidence but only faith, something which is highly personal and cannot be disproved through reasoning. In the same way, the non-religious person will not be convinced to join a faith, in fact the non-religious person is likely somebody who likes to reason with his/her own head, and therefore some way or the other has reached the conclusion that the concept of faith makes no sense and therefore is not something reliable, and because of it they will not be told how to do things by dogma, priests, religious texts and the like. Now, there is only one way through which a non religious person becomes religious or viceversa, and that is some kind of strong, lasting personal experience which convinces the individual of the opposite of their views until that moment. As for me, a lot of my friends consider me an agnostic, however I do not quite fit that profile. I keep an open mind to the two viable possibilities after death:either we continue living on in some way and there is a higher being, or we die and just plain and simple rot in the ground, something that scares a lot of people, in fact who wouldn't rather keep on living? And it is from this denial of the possibility of stop living that religions originate. However I have always been of the opinion that if there indeed exists a higher being(s) (therefore a higher intellect), how can we humans pretend to know who this being is, its rules? We do not in fact know any of this, and this is why today we have diverse beliefs and even divisions within the same belief. Therefore how can I know whether to be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hinduist, Buddhist, Pagan, Shintoist or maybe none of these? I do not know. And this is why I do not adhere to any particular religion, but as I said before I keep an open mind.

Icestorm
07-02-2007, 08:24 AM
I can say myself as an example. Once a person loses the walls of which are holding that 'pressured belief'up.. they quickly crumble. If they stop attending church.. the dog strays far from the home. Though I can say that.. what I said is mostly to be applied to people who take up faith when they are older.. rather when they are young and vunerable to accepting the truth from adults.. For when a child is young his brain is at its most powerful stage.. like a sponge it absorbs things and this is where you gain alot of stubborn beliefs from, because it is ingrained in you at the early age.. the brain is more susceptible to this.

TenkiStar Owns You
07-02-2007, 08:25 AM
As for the peer pressure issue... When looking at that aspect of religion, you have to also consider that peer pressure may not be the best way to describe it. Peer pressure, although a suitable phrase for this discussion, doesn't carry the weight necessary for some to understand the gravity of the situation. We see peer pressure as something that is temporary, something that people grow out of, and the decisions made due to it as similarly impermanent. What I believe Unholy was talking about was more like religion's role as a very deep-rooted social construct in many cultures. When religion plays such an important role in a society, failure to accept and participate in the religious views dominantly held by the society's members results in one being an outcast, banished, punished, etc. In modern 1st world societies it may seem more like peer pressure, certainly far less severe than in other cases, but do not underestimate the danger of going against a societal norm. We are lucky to be currently living in societies with enough variety to offer true choice, however that is not always the case. Can you picture a peasant in medieval Europe walking away from the church because they never had their heart in it? Not unless they were walking to the stake. :\

Unholy
07-02-2007, 08:26 AM
I personally think the idea of a higher being rediculous, and that the idea that the world is so complex that something had to design it is rediculous becuase that just requires something even more complex. The whole "God is just there" is a poor excuse for a bad flaw, these sorry excuses that are just so easily excepted are my real rpoblem though. The fact religion is so widely believed, and so uncommonly questioned by those that believe it is what I find baffling. It is atrocious that so many can just blindly believe in something that bases its entire properties on nothing, then condemns questions, there is faith in something, but if you are to belive in something there should be knowledge behind that faith, questioning to the faith, challenges to it, to strengthen that faith, not this whimsical bullshit.

Icestorm
07-02-2007, 08:30 AM
I think one of the main problems is not the church itself.. but the generations that hand down the belief from family to family.

Unholy
07-02-2007, 08:33 AM
I think one of the main problems is not the church itself.. but the generations that hand down the belief from family to family.
How about contributing something useful to the discussion instead of your stupid comments that really attribute nothing. You just make a random claim for no fucknig reason backed up with nothing and worst of all, YOU DO IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

There is no difference between the Church and the Families that take thier children to the Church, they both do the same thing, there is no blame game here, I never blamed the church, because my dislike goes far deeper than the people spreading religion, it goes deep to religion and the essense of the belief in religion. My arguments go far beyond you seemingly little understanding of whatever the hell you are trying to bring to this discussion.

Unholy
07-02-2007, 08:38 AM
DJ_Ryoma (http://forums.bleachportal.net/member.php?u=35483) your comments are my exact problem. The fact that there people require only faith to belive something so rediculous is what really gets to me. It's not the faith that gets to me, but the fact that they won't question the faith, or even think about questioning it, it's brainwashing, they follow it whether it makes sense or not. They follow it because you can't prove it doesn't exist. How is that intelligent thinking? Just because you cant disprove something, it has to be true? That's bloody rediculous. That would make a million retarded things also true just because people believed really hard and had no evidence to disprove it.

Take talking to the Dead for example, it is widely known that people like John Edwards use a method called Cold Reading to do what they do, but you see, no matter how much we can replicate what John edwards does with this technique showing that he is doing the exact same, people go "But you can't prove that John Edwards is using Cold reading, maybe he is legit." It's a absolutly retarded way of thinking and is the exact type of thing holding back society.

DJ_Ryoma
07-02-2007, 08:44 AM
I personally think the idea of a higher being rediculous, and that the idea that the world is so complex that something had to design it is rediculous becuase that just requires something even more complex. The whole "God is just there" is a poor excuse for a bad flaw, these sorry excuses that are just so easily excepted are my real rpoblem though. The fact religion is so widely believed, and so uncommonly questioned by those that believe it is what I find baffling. It is atrocious that so many can just blindly believe in something that bases its entire properties on nothing, then condemns questions, there is faith in something, but if you are to belive in something there should be knowledge behind that faith, questioning to the faith, challenges to it, to strengthen that faith, not this whimsical bullshit.
Yes I do agree with you on the idea that the religions...if you read my quote then you might have intuited that is precisely because we cannot know that any of the earth's religions have got it right prob don't) that I do not join any particular faith. However I disagree with you on your denial that a higher being categorically cannot exist...you say that it is ridiculous that god can exist because he would have to be so complex. That's exactly my point. If a higher being indeed exists, therefore a higher intellect than it is very possible that its understanding and intellects are beyond our means of comprehension, and that is why many people discard the possibility of god existing and not our minds, not our science (coming from our intellect), nothing of our doing on earth will be able to prove its existence (that is why you say that faith is based on nothing). However you cannot know that with certainty until you die. See, your discussion on manipulated faiths is for the most part valid, however if I tell you that I have faith on the possibility that god might exist but I am also aware of the possibility that we may rot after we die, is that unreasoned and blind faith? Like I said before...your idea that there should be knowledge behind faith is utopian (at least when speculating on the existence of a supreme being), because we will never be able to gather info on a supreme being until we die. If someone like me has faith on the possibility that God might exist (not the gods of humans as it would be impossible for us to understand the machinations of a supreme being) but is also aware that god might not exist, then I do not call that blind faith but well-reasoned faith, which is different that knowledge-driven faith, something impossible for this topic as I said before.

DJ_Ryoma
07-02-2007, 09:00 AM
DJ_Ryoma (http://forums.bleachportal.net/member.php?u=35483) your comments are my exact problem. The fact that there people require only faith to belive something so rediculous is what really gets to me. It's not the faith that gets to me, but the fact that they won't question the faith, or even think about questioning it, it's brainwashing, they follow it whether it makes sense or not. They follow it because you can't prove it doesn't exist. How is that intelligent thinking? Just because you cant disprove something, it has to be true? That's bloody rediculous. That would make a million retarded things also true just because people believed really hard and had no evidence to disprove it.

Take talking to the Dead for example, it is widely known that people like John Edwards use a method called Cold Reading to do what they do, but you see, no matter how much we can replicate what John edwards does with this technique showing that he is doing the exact same, people go "But you can't prove that John Edwards is using Cold reading, maybe he is legit." It's a absolutly retarded way of thinking and is the exact type of thing holding back society.
See you are making my point for me. You attack the idea that because the existence of god can't be disproven than it must be true and say that it is nonsensical...then you give tell me that a million things could be true just because people believe in them. Well for once science has never been able to disprove the existence of a God because it is impossible to do so. So just because you don't believe in it it does not mean that there isn't a god. About the million retarded things you mention...well if science has no means of disproving the veracity of these million things, then there is the possibility they are true. Here the thing is that it is you that repute them nonsensical and retarded, but as I said you cannot with certainty say that these things are not true. That is where I keep an open mind about God.

Unholy
07-02-2007, 09:04 AM
You keep falling back to the exact same argument. That you can't disprove god, therefore you have to give validity to the claim, thats rediculous. The claim there is a God should prove itself before I give it any validity, I have seen from being a christian myself and from others that there is nothing there and I see no reason to think of them as anything but totally wrong until they give me a reason other than "You can't prove us wrong".

DJ_Ryoma
07-02-2007, 09:12 AM
You keep falling back to the exact same argument. That you can't disprove god, therefore you have to give validity to the claim, thats rediculous. The claim there is a God should prove itself before I give it any validity, I have seen from being a christian myself and from others that there is nothing there and I see no reason to think of them as anything but totally wrong until they give me a reason other than "You can't prove us wrong".
"You have seen there is nothing there?" Like I said before, you cannot be sure of that claim until you die. In fact there are a lot of everyday happenings that science cannot explain...why is that? People that were surely going to die in hospitals unexplicably do not, and so on. But I guess you would not consider that as proof. Well then I guess you are going to wait until you die and see.

Unholy
07-02-2007, 09:12 AM
See you are making my point for me. You attack the idea that because the existence of god can't be disproven than it must be true and say that it is nonsensical...then you give tell me that a million things could be true just because people believe in them. Well for once science has never been able to disprove the existence of a God because it is impossible to do so. So just because you don't believe in it it does not mean that there isn't a god. About the million retarded things you mention...well if science has no means of disproving the veracity of these million things, then there is the possibility they are true. Here the thing is that it is you that repute them nonsensical and retarded, but as I said you cannot with certainty say that these things are not true. That is where I keep an open mind about God.

Again!! Just beliving something might be true just because you can't prove it unture is rediculous. No matter how much evidence we find in opposition to the idea of God, whether it be evolution or anything, we cannot disprove the idea because the idea is created to be undisprovable. Science offers valid solutions but it will never fully disprove the ideas because science never proves anything. It's a basic scientific principal that a test will never prove something, only disprove it. If someone says dropping a ball will cause it to fall, and it falls, you havent proven the ball will always fall, it just fell that time. you can assume it always will, but nothing is ever Proven, that's why scientific studies are marked as theories rather than fact, because we are always open to changing things as we learn more and grow.

Because we cannot prove things, we hope to disprove things, if someone says you can drop a ball and it will fly, then we drop the ball and it falls, we have disproven what they say. When faced with a question like the exisitence of God, science cannot disprove it because it is something that cannot be tested. This does not mean we should believe it, it's bloody rediculous. I can claim here that I can read your mind. You won't belive me, but you can't prove I can't. And seeing as religion fofers no proof, I would have no need to ever read your mind, only claim I can. This may seem like a rediculous example, but it's exactly the same and just shows how rediculous this open minded shit is.

Unholy
07-02-2007, 09:15 AM
"You have seen there is nothing there?" Like I said before, you cannot be sure of that claim until you die. In fact there are a lot of everyday happenings that science cannot explain...why is that? People that were surely going to die in hospitals unexplicably do not, and so on. But I guess you would not consider that as proof. Well then I guess you are going to wait until you die and see.

OH NOES!!! THINGS HAPPEN THAT I CAN'T EXPLAIN!! THERE MUST BE A GOD!!! Have you even read what I wrote initially? That is my exact point! Giving rights to a higher being just because you don't understand something is rediculous, the human race is constantly learning more and we dont even pretend to understand everything. Claiming thigns happen because of devine intervention or any bullshit like that only slows down the collection of knowledge stepping us a little closer to the unobtainable goal of understanding the universe. There is so much in the universe we will probably be extinct before we understand, and we know that, but we don't stop trying because we won't get anywhere putting out head between our legs and hoping really hard that there is a god.

DJ_Ryoma
07-02-2007, 09:23 AM
Again!! Just beliving something might be true just because you can't prove it unture is rediculous. No matter how much evidence we find in opposition to the idea of God, whether it be evolution or anything, we cannot disprove the idea because the idea is created to be undisprovable. Science offers valid solutions but it will never fully disprove the ideas because science never proves anything. It's a basic scientific principal that a test will never prove something, only disprove it. If someone says dropping a ball will cause it to fall, and it falls, you havent proven the ball will always fall, it just fell that time. you can assume it always will, but nothing is ever Proven, that's why scientific studies are marked as theories rather than fact, because we are always open to changing things as we learn more and grow.

Because we cannot prove things, we hope to disprove things, if someone says you can drop a ball and it will fly, then we drop the ball and it falls, we have disproven what they say. When faced with a question like the exisitence of God, science cannot disprove it because it is something that cannot be tested. This does not mean we should believe it, it's bloody rediculous. I can claim here that I can read your mind. You won't belive me, but you can't prove I can't. And seeing as religion fofers no proof, I would have no need to ever read your mind, only claim I can. This may seem like a rediculous example, but it's exactly the same and just shows how rediculous this open minded shit is.
You say that there is a lot of scientific evidence that God does not exist like evolution. Well that doesn't mean anything. You are probably just saying that because the Bible tells you otherwise. But as I said before I am not binded by such beliefs. Why do people think that evolution and other scientific discoveries disprove the existence of God? Like I told you before, you will get proof sooner or later whether for or against the existence of God, when you die. I also think you have misunderstood me. You keep replying as if I had told you that I believe in God. I said I am open to both possibilities which is entirely different.

DJ_Ryoma
07-02-2007, 09:35 AM
OH NOES!!! THINGS HAPPEN THAT I CAN'T EXPLAIN!! THERE MUST BE A GOD!!! Have you even read what I wrote initially? That is my exact point! Giving rights to a higher being just because you don't understand something is rediculous, the human race is constantly learning more and we dont even pretend to understand everything. Claiming thigns happen because of devine intervention or any bullshit like that only slows down the collection of knowledge stepping us a little closer to the unobtainable goal of understanding the universe. There is so much in the universe we will probably be extinct before we understand, and we know that, but we don't stop trying because we won't get anywhere putting out head between our legs and hoping really hard that there is a god.
Man is always searching for explanations. And that is probably why you think god was created. However let me ask you...if something happens that science cannot explain, even as we learn more....what would be the reason that makes that certain unexplainable thing happen? We may never know and never have proof of the process that started that certain unexplainable thing. But the fact will still remain that it did happen. And yet you would be ready to disclaim the possibilities that made it happen just because you have no proof.

Unholy
07-02-2007, 09:52 AM
"However let me ask you...if something happens that science cannot explain, even as we learn more....what would be the reason that makes that certain unexplainable thing happen?"

I would say that we still do not understand what happened, not that there is some super being in the sky that caused it to happen. Everything that happens has an explaination that doesnt require some divine influence to happen, we just don't know the reason for it. Shafting it off as something supernatural is ignorant and wrong and will only cause harm to mankind.


I'm sick of aruging with you, if you cannot supply me with a formed argument then I am not going to bother. Everytime I counter your argument you hit me with the same argument rephrased. You are not listening to me, so I am no longer going to listen to you, that's how it works. Not to mention you contradict yourself more than I can keep track of and it's making my brain hurt.

M_Ghey
07-02-2007, 10:54 AM
Ha, i used to go to a small CHristian school also, and i also started going to a better highscool that did not favor any religions over others. And, like you, i drifted from my faith. Now i am fully agnostic. I can also relate to the point you made about evolution. :)

mooks
07-02-2007, 11:21 AM
I think that the fact something cannot be proven by science, has to be the work of a Higher Being, is an etremely premature thought in trying to understand what exactly cannot be explained... In the same regard I think using things like evolution or possibility of intelligent life elsewhere or any recent scientific milestone to refute religion is also premature... Religion does not exist to explain the unexplained or fill in the holes that science has yet to reach.

Eventually, science will find an answer... it may take eons for the explanation to occur, but it will happen.


In regard to Unholy's openning post on this thread... I can relate to a certain extent.

I also felt cheated and somewhat ridiculed by the habitual rhetoric that was spewed to me when i was in sunday school, bible study and the like (the evolution thing, faith, God's way of working, etc).

I remained agnostic, or rather atheist throughout my teenage years... until I started studying theology and weirdly enough, it was a fellow classmate of mine (with whom I disagreed with on everything) who was a devout Muslim, reverted me back towards religion in a sense... not islam or christianity

Now, I do not take the bible literally, I don't visit the church regularly because I believe that organized religion has hijacked religion for the selfish purposes of any high ranking religious figure- be it a Pope or Imam... in any time of our history...

I believe "blind faith" is definetely dangerous to any religion... I truly believe a person has to explore all doubts and contradictions before attesting to an absolute faith. And I think most are scared of such a transition because they will lose faith if they look for answers elsewhere...

I prefer to adopt Einsteins or S. Hawkings view of religion or a "higher being" if you will.

I don't see the difference between this thread and the "Does God exist?" thread (apart from falling victim to Unholy's punishing responses!).

It's all revolving around the same circle of arguements... How can you convince someone that God does not exist, if they have faith in God? And how can you convince someone who doesn't believe in God that He exists? Its almost like arguing a persons state of mind...
This is actually quite pointless... I doubt any religious person would be able to take this argument with a grain of salt...

Sher0uz
07-02-2007, 04:10 PM
I'm not goin into whether there's a god or not, but as far as your question about religion it does both. Religon helps becuase it unifies people, gives them morals, keeps them in line, etc. But it hurts more because of all the wars that have been fought (and are being fought) because of it. And how it divides people as well. I always though it was stupid when people kill each other becuase "my imaginary friend is better than yours". I actually do believe that there's a god or at least something after death, but i personally dont like religion. And on another note, not being religous doesnt actually mean the person is bad or immoral (athesits and agnostics) it just means that they have diferent thoughts on certain things. I havent heard of agnostics in suidcide bombings or atheists forcefully converting people. So thats my 2 cents

T_Ichigo
07-02-2007, 04:41 PM
ERhm .. reiligion is both helping and hurting in my opinion.
Short and concist.
Helping: Makes you motivated with the differents parts of the life, contributes to achievement of knowledge which could help yourself on everyday-life.

Hurting: Extremism ..

KholdStare
07-03-2007, 03:40 AM
A wise man once said:

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Jack of Blades: Too short. Post longer posts than this in debates, please.

Neko Ruki
07-05-2007, 07:35 PM
religion helps a lot because some people need to believe in stuf to hang on, what's hurting is religious jack ass red necks like Bush that use religion as an excuse 4 war and people that macke schools teach religion instead of evolution, they should pay a private school then

DJ_Ryoma
07-06-2007, 01:05 AM
"However let me ask you...if something happens that science cannot explain, even as we learn more....what would be the reason that makes that certain unexplainable thing happen?"

I would say that we still do not understand what happened, not that there is some super being in the sky that caused it to happen. Everything that happens has an explaination that doesnt require some divine influence to happen, we just don't know the reason for it. Shafting it off as something supernatural is ignorant and wrong and will only cause harm to mankind.


I'm sick of arguing with you, if you cannot supply me with a formed argument then I am not going to bother. Everytime I counter your argument you hit me with the same argument rephrased. You are not listening to me, so I am no longer going to listen to you, that's how it works. Not to mention you contradict yourself more than I can keep track of and it's making my brain hurt.
So you are willing to accept the idea that there are things for which we do not understand the reasons... and yet you refuse to take into consideration the possibility that some things which happen could come from a higher power...how can you be certain of the fact that there must be a logical explanation if you do not understand what happened in the first place? Also, I could tell you that shafting everything off as something that can be explained scientifically when it is clear that it is not always the case, is hard-headed and also dangerous for mankind. Again I will repeat to you: here I am not arguing for one side or the other, I am just considering possibilities. The last part of your post is typical. You say that my arguments are not formed, when they are indeed...it is just you that won't hear otherwise, that will not take into consideration the possibility of a higher being...You say I contradict myself and yet you leave it at that? Could you point to where have I contradicted myself? Otherwise that is just a cheap excuse...

Alex26
07-06-2007, 07:55 AM
Hmm, maybe you are "forced" to believe on everything the christian religion says because on the medieval times, it was used as a tool to manipulate people. What was used to manipulate the people? HOPE! Ok, MAYBE, when christianity was formed, its teachings werent used to manipulate people. But you know how we humans are XD. The best way of manipulating people, is by giving them hope! Just like we manipulate our little sisters and bros, dont tell mom or i'll kik your arse ... wrong sample, dont tell mom and i'll give you candy... thats better XD. Though, thats a good example, the odds of manipulating your bro are better if you give them something positive (candy = hope/religion) than a can of whoopass (negative/violence/threats = dictatorship) *the voice of experience talks here* Though, notice, that the church and the religion falled because of the threaten people with the you go to hell thing and the force thing. Maybe if they hadnt used force to make everyone believe on christianity, we would still be ruled by the church =O. Interesting XD

However, on the present, i dont concider this to be such a problem. Your free to believe whatever the hell you want and your free to ignore the ones who blindly believe on something. Now you can believe on religion and on science as opposed to the old times (before revolution). I dont see why blind faithfull people should bother anyone either. Sure, they are annoying, but thats about it. Now theres no one to force you on what to believe, if theres anything to blame right now is society. That part of society that forcefuly wants to make everyone believe on what they believe. And those people, most of the time, gain some money or other benefits for doing that >.<.

Also, i know that christianity forces you to believe on it, but thats only if you want to believe on the old teachings that badly. The Bible has been modifyed and so the morals and behaviour of society on these modern times. You are able to ignore whatever you find unconvenient for you now XD. Take the "If your not virgin, your not going to heaven" sentence i once read on a Bible, i think it was apocalypesse, the few last pages, if we were to be forced to believe on that, the Bible would be the cause of our extinction,it;ll be a shame, at least dinos died cuz of a meteorite XD

Synthesis, religion (christian), right now, is nothing more than something people cling onto when they need extra support. And its good, i rather see people with hope and thinking positively than someone who thinks of everything negativly and haves no hope whatsoever. It sure haves its bad things, one of them being the totaly blind life controling faith that forges ignorance inside the brains of some people. But if your open minded, you shouldnt have any problems with it :D.

BTW, im not a religious guy at all, hell, im very... hardheaded when it comes to believing the story of the Bible. Hmm, im not atheist, nor a religious guy, so im neutral XD.

ALSO, when you see religion, add (christian) to the right, i dont have enough info to judge any other kind of religion, I think we all agree, doing that would make anyone an ignorant.

lote_tree
07-08-2007, 12:36 PM
It's not God I dislike, it's MOST of his fan club I can't stand..

It's his fan club that would want to turn me into an atheist or an agnostic, not the basic principles outlined in the various scriptures.

Imagine you don't know how to drive and one day somebody gives you a beautiful Ferrari Enzo to drive. They say, “In order to prevent you from crashing and killing yourself we will give you two choices. You can either pick Michael Schumacher to teach you how to drive it or you can pick Derek the car mechanic down the road?”

Now which would you want to pick if your goal was to become a very good driver of a Ferrari Enzo?

The unfortunate thing is that most of God’s fan club consists of people like Derek who are not qualified to teach something very delicate like religion.

Peace :)

TuRm0iL
07-09-2007, 12:36 AM
You introduce the possibility that Christianity, or all religions, are elaborate cons because they are so similar to a modern con. You follow that argument up with the argument of science as if to say "Now HERE is something we can believe not to be a con."

It is disgusting to me how you can compare the two like this, and you have obviously not thought through both sides of your argument. I suppose you missed out on most of your early sciences as you went to a Christian school apparently against most scientific views (which, by the way, is extremely odd. Most Christian schools will go through theory of evolution and other such things.), but it is taught nearly the same as you described being taught Christianity. By this I mean that basics are taught first, with not nearly enough explanation. And if you have a question deeper than what the course explains, you are told (exactly how you put it) “That doesn’t matter”.

Science also resembles a con in that you are kept oblivious. What you have to realize is that you are not kept oblivious (in both science AND Christianity) to keep you from finding holes and disbelieving the whole concept, but because you were a kid. A kid which adults look down on and consider too stupid to understand a higher concept than you are "supposed" to be taught.

You later go on to blame religious views for holding up science from being able to explain things unexplainable, or achieve things unachievable. As a Christian (not saying I'm superior or anything, just based on my views) I feel completely ok with myself to call this complete bull. It's never been a religious view that has kept science from progressing, but moral views of nearly all human kind. I am totally against stem cell research, not because of religious views but because it requires killing a baby. Or, if you want to say "It's not a baby if it's not born" than it requires killing a FUTURE baby. Science cause just as many, if not more problems than Christianity in this sense.

You also seemed to enjoy bashing faith. You don't realize the implications of faith do you? Yes I know its all belief in something that could not exist at all. But faith creates hope, and hope keeps you going. So what if God actually doesn't exist? The belief in God will keep people going through harsh times, and keep people moderately happier than someone who believes that death is the end. A likely scenario to explain this is someone going to lunch with a friend. They have FAITH that their friend will show up. Faith is everywhere you look, even if its not faith in God. Another scenario is that a man dying of hunger gets a call that someone is coming with food. This makes him have hope. And he will push to survive longer.

So yeah. Religion isn't hurting.

Olrox
07-09-2007, 01:48 AM
But faith creates hope, and hope keeps you going. So what if God actually doesn't exist? The belief in God will keep people going through harsh times, and keep people moderately happier than someone who believes that death is the end.

The "belivers are happier" argument is getting old. Im an atheist and im very happy with my life, even though Iv'e had alot of troubles in life. Beliving that death is the end doesn't make me sad, it's a privilege to be alive and makes me value life even more and wants me to make the best of this short time here, and also help others to do so.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. " - Carl Sagan

TuRm0iL
07-09-2007, 03:54 AM
The idea of death scares the shit out of anyone. You act brave and try to forget about death, but death is very real and comes for everyone. Sure right now you don't really care about it, but there are times in everyones life when you must dwell on it and face it. It's a lot easier to deal with if you do have a belief that allows for some sort of afterlife, and it gives hope to see those who have died again. The value of life is also enhanced as life is believed to be God created, and therefore holy. Once again, whether God is real or not, the belief can strengthen you in so many ways.

KT Samurai
07-13-2007, 09:21 PM
you can’t take offence to this article

I found this amusing. People can take offense to anything, no matter how solid your reasoning or evidence my be. That's just how it goes. My blood pressure's a lot lower now that I know this.

You cover a lot of valid and very real issues concerning the religious community. The lack of choice, the isolation, and the repression of outside mentalities are all common tools of many religions who feel threatened by modern secularist thinking. I'm always rather shocked to hear stories like yours since my childhood was dominated by Ninja Turtles and Sesame Street, not God and how much he supposadly loves me.

I noticed someone going on and on about how there are so many things we as human beings can't explain and that the only logical thing to do is credit those things to a God. This is an age-old method of coping with things we haven't figured out yet, and it's not likely going to go away. The simple answer to this silly statement is this: just because we don't know now doesn't mean we'll never know later. I can understand the need to know as quickly as possible, but the simple fact of the matter is that many of the world's greatest secrets won't be explained during your lifetime. That's just how it is. It sucks, yeah, but that doesn't mean "goddidit."

Cool thread, man. I appreciate a subject that can get people to write as much as they have here.

Kurz Weber
07-16-2007, 05:43 AM
See you are making my point for me. You attack the idea that because the existence of god can't be disproven than it must be true and say that it is nonsensical...then you give tell me that a million things could be true just because people believe in them. Well for once science has never been able to disprove the existence of a God because it is impossible to do so. So just because you don't believe in it it does not mean that there isn't a god. About the million retarded things you mention...well if science has no means of disproving the veracity of these million things, then there is the possibility they are true. Here the thing is that it is you that repute them nonsensical and retarded, but as I said you cannot with certainty say that these things are not true. That is where I keep an open mind about God.
Some of this seems like it should go in the Does God Exist? thread...

Anyways on the question of religion helping or hurting, I believe it does both. Religion is there to hold stability of everyday people. It gives people moral values and restrictions to hold people within the 'law.'

Religion is also the major cause for tensions between races and has caused war throughout the world. The Iraqi War that the US is dealing with now, was started due to religious extremist beliefs that caused the war. It's easy to say religion hurts do to this, because it's one reason people are dying. But you have to think on the otherside. What does religion contribute? The faith brings a serenity to believers because they believe they are being always protected and always watched. It gives people the satisfaction of believing truly that there is a life after we die, AND it will be better than this world.

Religion hurts and helps. It just depends on how people look at it. You all bring up good points. Religion itself hurts because some people believe they should attack other people's religion. Almost like a moral obligation to "save" the individual who doesn't believe what you do. But at the same time it brings hope and faith, that trains people to trust. Religion can also be seen as a helping factor because it trains people to trust a higher being. This trust can be used to train people to trust other people "above" them, such as the government. :biggrinki

Religion helps and hurts. It's just up to whoever wants look at it.

T_Ichigo
07-16-2007, 03:02 PM
lol, I wonder how far you guys have gone
Is religion helping or hurting ? not exactly a controversial debate question in my opinion and some of your posts could really be moved :S

I've written this once.
Religion is helping in that way that it makes you motivated with the life. How to live it, how to serve your "god", obey its rules and by means of that you feel better in many ways.

It is hurting, why ? ---> extremism -> fanatism -> terrorism -> war -> sacrifices.

Neko Kyo
07-16-2007, 03:08 PM
Religion helps and hurts you. I can comfort you, like when your little and you need to feel like someones up there watching an protecting. Usually little ones think The one watching is a loved one who past away. At least that's what I used to think

It can hurt you, because thier's too much controversy over it. I mean, look at the war in Iraq. how manygood ppl have to die in vain just because they think killing themselves is for the best? What kind of god would let all this happen? It just isn't right. not at all . . .

^Panther^
07-18-2007, 09:20 PM
Religion helps and hurts you. I can comfort you, like when your little and you need to feel like someones up there watching an protecting. Usually little ones think The one watching is a loved one who past away. At least that's what I used to think
It can hurt you, because thier's too much controversy over it. I mean, look at the war in Iraq. how manygood ppl have to die in vain just because they think killing themselves is for the best? What kind of god would let all this happen? It just isn't right. not at all . . .
i have to agree with kyoku, it can help and be bad. religion kids of give guidelines which reduces violence. at the same time, some people believe violence is okay as long as it is in the name of religion.

Kurz Weber
07-18-2007, 09:30 PM
Obviously this isn't a debate. So far I've seen everyone agrees it can help by comforting you, and can hurt because people use religion to spawn violence. Just on this page everyone so far has made the same claims.