Spare The Rod, Spoil The Child

[Vladimir]

spare the rod. spoil the child.
if you spare the rod and spoil the child, don't come crying after that. raising up you kids is pure difficult. but don't spare it. they do wrong, punish them so that they won't do it again. parents cannot be guilty after that cause it's their job. there's no advantage to it. parents should be strict but at a limit. just think about it. if you keep sparing the rod, these are some possibility: spoilt, naughty, good for nothing, lazy, know nothing at all. some parents are so worried that their child would be punished in school that they don't let them go to school. that's a very lame reason. you can be a heiress for all i car but if you are spoilt and totally know nothing about life, might as well so being alive. punishing is not bad. canning is not bad. it's just a hard way of learning thing. but it's a good way to get it inside you head.

[KT Samurai]

I agree. Parents should not be holding back as much as they are now.

Fun Futrama quote:

"Have you ever thought of sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?" - Bender

[Guy]

As long as the rod doesn't become a child abuser, I agree. Children are naive beings, they need to learn that not everything in life will go their way. The rod will open their eyes so that they can see clearly. Without it, they become spoiled.

I've met spoiled people in my life, (lots, actually) and the one thing they lack is definitely discipline. I take martial arts lesson and my master also says that the most important thing is discipline. He could transform a bunch of whiny kids into a group of men that respects the teachers, even through physical punishments. Being spoiled obviously is not good, life is harsh, and the sooner children know that, the easier it is for them to understand life.

[Olrox]

I don't think that physical punishments are required to raise a good kid (except maybe in rare cases), if the parents know what they're doing. I was never harmed as a child, and I think I turned out okay. I respect both of my parents (especially my mother), and it motivates me to do good in school etc. not because Im afraid I might get punished, but because they might be dissapointed if I didn't take school seriously. Them being dissapointed is much worse, than them being angry. Had I been raised badly I might think "Well screw it, who cares what they think anyway?".

So I defineatly do not agree with the saying "spare the rod. spoil the child.". The line between physical discipline and abuse is very thin anyway.

[KT Samurai]

I don't think that physical punishments are required to raise a good kid (except maybe in rare cases), if the parents know what they're doing. I was never harmed as a child, and I think I turned out okay. I respect both of my parents (especially my mother), and it motivates me to do good in school etc. not because Im afraid I might get punished, but because they might be dissapointed if I didn't take school seriously. Them being dissapointed is much worse, than them being angry. Had I been raised badly I might think "Well screw it, who cares what they think anyway?".
So I defineatly do not agree with the saying "spare the rod. spoil the child.". The line between physical discipline and abuse is very thin anyway.

I can't see how it would be thin. If you get hit when as a means of correction then it's discipline. If you get hit for no good reason then it's abuse.

[Olrox]

I can't see how it would be thin. If you get hit when as a means of correction then it's discipline. If you get hit for no good reason then it's abuse.

I think it's also abuse if you hit too hard, and when it's not necessary. Who decides when hitting is necessary ? Hitting a small kid for doing something stupid/wrong but harmless is borderline abuse, talking to him why you can't do that should be enough.

[KT Samurai]

Yes, child abuse does happen. But now that parents have been pussified society look at the horrible children that are popping into the world these days. Parents need to smack kids when they do retarded stuff to work the concept into their brains. Sometimes you're fortunate and a kid just needs a firm lecture, but a lot of parents won't even do that. We've hit a point where kids are raising themselves, and they're not doing a good job.

Parents are here to keep you in line. If you mess up too bad they should smack you for it.

[FullMetal Rebel]

There's a VERY VERY thin line when it comes to this subject.

It is abuse when parents do it too hard,or for every little mistake.There is raising discipline in your child,then there if raising "fear" into your child.

It gets carried away when children hope he/she did well on their report card,so they won't get the living hell beat out of them with a spiky cane(aka switch).

I've seen what happens when a child gets whipped too much in their early child hood by their parents.All it does is make a bad relationship between the parents and the child.By the time he/she hits the teenage years,you got a sour teenager who doesn't give a damn about you.

Parents who depend on beating a child to raise one,is a bad parent.From what I've seen all it does is make a teen defiant of his/her parents.It develops a sour relationship between parent and child.Why would anyone care about anyone who beats the living hell outta of them for every little mistake.

It is a extremely thin line.

I was raised just fine without that pitiful excuse of parenting.

[KT Samurai]

There's a VERY VERY thin line when it comes to this subject.

It is abuse when parents do it too hard,or for every little mistake.There is raising discipline in your child,then there if raising "fear" into your child.

It gets carried away when children hope he/she did well on their report card,so they won't get the living hell beat out of them with a spiky cane(aka switch).

I've seen what happens when a child gets whipped too much in their early child hood by their parents.All it does is make a bad relationship between the parents and the child.By the time he/she hits the teenage years,you got a sour teenager who doesn't give a damn about you.

Parents who depend on beating a child to raise one,is a bad parent.From what I've seen all it does is make a teen defiant of his/her parents.It develops a sour relationship between parent and child.Why would anyone care about anyone who beats the living hell outta of them for every little mistake.

It is a extremely thin line.

I was raised just fine without that pitiful excuse of parenting.

You should talk to some of your elders about this subject. I bet they have some horror stories to tell you!

It's not a thin line. Hitting a kid for the sake of hitting them is abuse, and hitting them as a means of correction is not. Yes, some parents can and have taken it too far, but that doesn't mean the practice should be shunned the way it is now. Sometimes a kid needs a good goddamn slap and there's just no substitute for that.

Not every kid needs a whallop, obviously. I got smacked around when I was very young, sure, but I know other kids who didn't get that kind of treatment and turned out okay. That just tells me their parents either found alternatives or never had to resort to physical correction. That, I think, is judgement that only a parent should be allowed to make unless they cross the very obvious line.

[Shinomori]

spare the rod. spoil the child.

Sometimes the horse prefers the carrot to the whip.

I'm of the personal belief that violence is not necessary when raising children. When giving negative reinforcement, the idea is to (obviously) teach the child that what they did was wrong.

So here's my question - why not reward them for doing what is right instead?

Say you give your child $10 (or some monetary amount) if they get above a 3.5 GPA in a quarter of their school year. This serves the same purpose as punishing a child for getting under a 3.5. The difference is that your child will actually, you know, like you.

I'm not saying there's never a time when negative reinforcement has to be used. If your kid shoplifts, you can't just reward him whenever he DOESN'T shoplift. However, for everyday activities, there is something to be said for rewards instead of punishments.

I was raised in a very, very negative-reinforcement environment. I got punished for not getting a 4.0 GPA in fourth grade. However, over time, I became more or less desensitized to the punishments. I took them as just another thing to add to my day. The reason, ironically, that I stopped "trying" or even caring at all about school was because I had a friend whose parents gave him $50 for each quarter he got a 4.0. I had gotten that the past 14 quarters of my life, in classes further advanced than anyone else in my grade. (I took fifth grade math in second grade.)

I got nothing for it.

I realized, at that point, that rewarding someone provides MUCH more incentive than the threat of punishment. I believe this is because rewards give something to work FOR, not something to work AGAINST.

[KT Samurai]

So here's my question - why not reward them for doing what is right instead?

As you pointed out yourself, you can't reward not doing stupid or undesirable things. A violent scolding or ever a smack on occasion can do a lot to motivate a child, believe me.

This may sound deeply curious, but your child does not have to "like you" when their inadequacies are examined. Part of parenting is being authoritive, being firm, and making a point very clear. I didn't "like" my father whenever he gave me shit about the things I did wrong, but you can bet that I learned from each and every encounter.

I think the problem we're having here is that I seem to be giving off the aura that every parent of every child should be hitting their children on a regular basis. This is not that I'm advocating. I am simply saying that there are times when a firm smack on the head or slap on the hand are needed in order to correct bad bahavior. For the most part, this kind of correction isn't needed in the teenage years (mostly since if you haven't gotten your kid under control by then then you're pretty screwed since teenagers are a self-righteous and largely ignorant lot) and can mostly likely only be applied to correcting seriously bad behavior. Even physical discipline can fail, however, and I would thoroughly encourage the use of other means if they fit the situation better.

It's just parenting.

[Shinomori]

Well, you see, that's how I was raised.

And I grew up to be who I am today.

My life's aspirations are to move to the West Coast or a foreign country (for a point of reference, my family lives in Ohio).

I've constantly underperformed in school and in life due to a lack of motivation.

So that's why I think that my parents failed, which resulted in me failing, which is why I think their system doesn't work.

I'll be a bit more elaborate later, I'm editing.

-----elaboration time.

Growing up as a kid, I was a model student. I had accelerated classes just for me - by that, I mean I walked across the elementary school and took classes with the fifth graders. Got straight A's every year.

First quarter of my fourth grade year, I was talking to a friend of mine, and he commented about how he got $50 for each quarter he got straight A's. I'd done it for three years, and gotten nothing.

I talked to my parents, and they told me both that "the reward is getting a good grade" and "we expect nothing less out of you".

So I started messing around in school, because I had come to the realization that my best was merely acceptable to them. (Yes, I thought of all of this when I was like...7. I was smart. XD)

Second quarter, barely got an A in one class. Third quarter, got a B because, instead of taking notes during a movie, I was talking with friends. The notes got collected. I got a 0/20. And a B. An 89.6%.

To this day, I still remember all of this because I know it's why I didn't care in school anymore.

Fifth grade, I was getting a D in reading. We were reading Island of the Blue Dolphins. I hated the book. We had to do some journal thing which I thought was something only kids up to the age of 6 should do. So I didn't.

They sent a progress report home for my parents to sign. I put it off for two weeks, then forged my mom's signature off of a lunch check.

I got caught.

Punished severely. (you know, it's a crime to do that sort of thing... XD)

But at the same time...I didn't improve because of punishment. Ended up with a B in that class.

Middle school, I never got straight A's an entire year in any of the grades. I had the most reading points (different books are different points, have to take a test afterward) by 300. I had 1800-ish, a record to this date at my school. By comparison, the highest point-value book was Les Miserables at 103 points. I didn't read anything above 50. I won the spelling and geography bees at my school every year. I tied for the highest score in a national math competition, while taking pre-algebra in sixth grade at the age of 9. I went to Northwestern University because I got a 30 on my ACT, a score above most graduating seniors. I was 10 at the time. I took the SAT the summer between my 8th grade and freshman year, and got a 1460.

I never got straight A's over a full year ever again. I got National Merit Finalist, got the highest ACT and SAT scores in my grade.

Graduated 23rd in a class of 218.

Why?

Because my parents thought that threatening me was more of an incentive than rewarding me. I never got a "good job", never got a reward. I got told that I did what they knew I could. So I decided it didn't matter.

Perhaps there are different synapse responses to these sort of things in people. Maybe some people respond better to positive reinforcement, others to negative. Either way, that's the sad, sad story of my life (the title is Why No Ivy League Schools Accepted Me, for the record).

[Hajar]

All Im gonna say is that..even though I still do dumb stuff sometimes and make mistakes..when its something TOO stupid..I always remember, My momma would whoop my ass if I got caught...and thus I dont do it. Pain is an excellent teacher...

[VampyreLord]

Basic psychology (Skinner's learning theory) strongly suggests that punishment is largely un-necessary to raise children properly. Simply ignoring behaviour you do not wish to encourage will usually suffice, as long as you also reward behaviour you want to encourage.

Personally, I think that violence begets violence, and it's not something we need to raise our children on.

[Vladimir]

pain is not always an excellent teachers. i can use myself as an example. i get beaten up badly and would cooperate for a day or two sometimes a week but i willl return as per normal like my old self.. depends whether i want to get that in my head or not. using the rod is not always right, isn't it? even though it's an excellent teacher for people who are stubborn. violence is not always the solution. sometimes it's just a way. talk is sometime the best way. but to a VERY stubborn person, i think it's good.

[Pyramus]

I heard something off a comedian once and he said!

"Parents arnt strict with their kids anymore! I think that they should take something from Africa, and bring back arranged marriges, if the child knew that their parents were choosing their wife, theyd be good!"

[Hajar]

pain is not always an excellent teachers. i can use myself as an example. i get beaten up badly and would cooperate for a day or two sometimes a week but i willl return as per normal like my old self.. depends whether i want to get that in my head or not. using the rod is not always right, isn't it? even though it's an excellent teacher for people who are stubborn. violence is not always the solution. sometimes it's just a way. talk is sometime the best way. but to a VERY stubborn person, i think it's good.

Very True. I too think that there a re certain situations where whooping the child wont help and it might even make the problem worse,I guess its all up to the parent,even though some of them take it over board.

[Bladecatcher]

i am taking my knowledge from my own experience. i think that in some cases, it is right to- lets say it like my school says it-"Corporal Punish" a child.
when i was younger, my brother and I were double trouble. i was a major tomboy, and loved to get into all sorts of trouble with my brother. but then came the consequences, which were getting spanked with various things. the thick hangers, yard sticks--and the worst, and most dreaded thing-the belt for my dad's White's [Navy uniform]. time after time, my parents would line us up, bent over on the couch, whoop us several times, and then of course, we would be bawling likes babies. i hated it then.
but as i got older, i veered away from the trouble, because i knew the consequences. by the time i was 10, the punishment was basically gone, because i knew better.
and now, 7 years later, i am actually glad my parents did it. i couldn't see how they could stand all the crap we did.

and even now, at our high school they still have 'corporal punishment'--just like our elementary and middle schools did. and at the beginning of each new school year, they would send a permission paper to our parents asking if they want the principal/vice principal to give whoopings. i always told my dad to check yes-because knowing that i could get whooped, i wouldn't even think of doing something stupid.

[Youko Makuyo]

Children are quite spoiled now a days, A bunch of kids called me ugly and their parents LAUGHED, WTF is that? I know I'm not beautiful but I am not ugly >_>

I will probably end raising my kids as my parents raised me, grounding if somethings severe enough, or using a stern voice.

[DJ StarScream]

The way it was for me I couldn't even have my parents called without knowning that I was going to get the belt. If the others got in trouble no problem for them they just got grounded. I got yelled at spanked and grounded. I thought my parents care to much.

[Arei]

Its kinda crude, but my teachers before have done tests where they ask their students in the AP class if they were spanked as a child, and everyone raises their hand. In the regular class, not even 50%. That probably says something. If you don't spank your kids they will never learn what not to do, and they will have no respect for you or anyone else, which is completely opposite of the kids that ARE spanked, they may dislike you at the time for it, but as they age they'll look back and realize how much that helped shape them into being a good person, unless you are hateful/mean/beat your child, then they WILL hate you and probably still act like a little ass.

[Neko Bam]

I think you should reward a child when he does something good, and punish him when he does something wrong. If you only do the former, he will see being naughty as just 'neutral' behaviour, and thus continue doing it. He'll learn that it's 'bad behaviour' when you punish him.

[Olrox]

Its kinda crude, but my teachers before have done tests where they ask their students in the AP class if they were spanked as a child, and everyone raises their hand. In the regular class, not even 50%. That probably says something. If you don't spank your kids they will never learn what not to do, and they will have no respect for you or anyone else, which is completely opposite of the kids that ARE spanked, they may dislike you at the time for it, but as they age they'll look back and realize how much that helped shape them into being a good person, unless you are hateful/mean/beat your child, then they WILL hate you and probably still act like a little ass.

It's ridicilous to say that only childs who were physically punished will turn out good. Alot of kids who are physically punished will learn FEAR, not respect. My father is a good example, his dad (my grandfather) was/is a real asshole and he's still afraid of him at the age of 50. I have alot of respect for my parents, and I was never physically punished and neither we're any of my siblings and we're a very happy family and everyone is doing great. Parents need to earn respect too, and one of the reasons why I respect my parents is because they raised me so well.

Constantly physically punishing your child might lead to the child fearing and hating the parent, and is afraid/ doesn't want to tell him of his problems etc. A child should never be afraid of his/her parents. Some start to hate they're parents so much that they'll do stupid things just to annoy them (watched a documentary on the subject a few days ago on finnish tv).

because knowing that i could get whooped, i wouldn't even think of doing something stupid.

If that's the only reason, then you have some problems (no offence).

[Arei]

Props for the Hawt captain avvy :Domo
It's ridicilous to say that only childs who were physically punished will turn out good. Alot of kids who are physically punished will learn FEAR, not respect. My father is a good example, his dad (my grandfather) was/is a real asshole and he's still afraid of him at the age of 50. I have alot of respect for my parents, and I was never physically punished and neither we're any of my siblings and we're a very happy family and everyone is doing great. Parents need to earn respect too, and one of the reasons why I respect my parents is because they raised me so well.
Constantly physically punishing your child might lead to the child fearing and hating the parent, and is afraid/ doesn't want to tell him of his problems etc. A child should never be afraid of his/her parents. Some start to hate they're parents so much that they'll do stupid things just to annoy them (watched a documentary on the subject a few days ago on finnish tv).
If that's the only reason, then you have some problems (no offence).
Look at the last part of my post:

unless you are hateful/mean/beat your child, then they WILL hate you and probably still act like a little ass.

Though I do get what you mean about fear, I am afraid of my grandma. She is too critical and would make outbursts/spank me to the point where I don't want to tell her my problems, and if she wasn't so opinionated and "my way or the highway" she'd be the best person to tell stuff, because my mom don't know jack >__>

My grandma literally beat me (it turned into beating, not a spanking) with the glue stick one time when I was 11, I ran out of the house and hid in the woods o.o

Though some kids are so stupid unless they have a negative feeling with a bad action they will continue to do it, as long as it doesn't feel bad they'll continue with the bad action.

Grounding does NOT always work. I've really never done anything to get grounded, and when my mom tried to ground me, I'd still watch TV or whatever and she wouldn't say anything (I could live without TV now, but back then I really had nothing else to do at home (and i wouldnt be able to play my nintendos either) so that was painful D=

You're lucky to have made it without being physcially punished, but very very VERRRYYY few people make it successfully that way, because most parents don't know how to properly raise their kids in a non-corpal punishment way.

I only got spanked once at my dads that I can remember, but they did alot of scaring/lying to me that was downright mean. I would spank a kid ANYDAY before trying to psyche them out/lie to them/scare them.

[Guy]

It's ridicilous to say that only childs who were physically punished will turn out good. Alot of kids who are physically punished will learn FEAR, not respect. My father is a good example, his dad (my grandfather) was/is a real asshole and he's still afraid of him at the age of 50. I have alot of respect for my parents, and I was never physically punished and neither we're any of my siblings and we're a very happy family and everyone is doing great. Parents need to earn respect too, and one of the reasons why I respect my parents is because they raised me so well.Constantly physically punishing your child might lead to the child fearing and hating the parent, and is afraid/ doesn't want to tell him of his problems etc. A child should never be afraid of his/her parents. Some start to hate they're parents so much that they'll do stupid things just to annoy them (watched a documentary on the subject a few days ago on finnish tv).


Funny, my life experiences reveal the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you're saying (although the "constantly beating" part is an exaggeration... a bit). I was born in Taiwan, and physical punishment was common even in preschool and kindergarten. I still remember being smacked by a ruler from my teacher when I ask stupid questions, I even have scars on my body from some of their beatings! However, I was a good boy in the class, and although I did get spankings and beatings, for the most part, I did obey the rules. Then, I came to America, where there was no public beating in schools. I cannot tell you how many times I almost got suspended when I first came to America.

In addition, ALL of my ancestors faced physical punishments before. NONE of them turned insane. In fact, all of my ancestors/uncles/aunts were beaten in their childhood, but they all moved on to really good schools. The older generations went to good colleges in China and Taiwan, while the later generation went to Ivy League Schools here in America. Today, they all earn good money (over $100,000 a year) and above all, they are perfectly SANE people who do not constantly have fear in their eyes.

[Undying]

That's because they were raised by a society that develops a certain frame of mind about physical punishment. People from more "freer" countries tend to be mentally harmed at the slightest beating.

Now, for the topic... I'm going to partially agree and partially disagree. Sure children needs guidance and sometimes have to be forcibly stopped from doing things, or beaten for doing something wrong (I don't mean "beat" as in beat them unconscious. Beat them means a spanking, a slap, enough to hurt and show that what they did is bad, but not hurting to the point of scaring the child), but sometimes the best punishment is not beating the child, but rather letting them feel the consequences of their action.

Example - the child broke their window frame. Assuming there are bars placed on the window to prevent falling if its high, instead of punishing the child, better let them feel how cold and windy it is, and how troublesome it is to constantly have an open window.

To sum it all up, there are a lot of gray areas in this. Physical punishment can sometimes be just one step away from physical abuse.

In my opinion, every case has to be checked on a stand-alone basis. No two kids are alike, so no two kids will react to physical punishment in the same way.

[James Cizuz]

Spare the rod, beat the child old school.
Good slap across the face never hurt anyone, only helped. Yes you can go to far, but it helped me as a child, when I did wrong, I got hit. I look back at it now and thank my parents, I can only imagine what I would be like if I got everything handed to me... I would probably be a wigger like half of the people growing up now, and that makes me so glad they did it.

[cyberfields]

imo... "rodding" the child does nothing but make them resent and teach them more violence... find what a child likes and take that away from them... :)

[Reco]

I don't think that hitting children would help them. The kid would still want to do something "bad" and the only thing that is holding them back is fear. So, then they are filled with anger and fear. This does not help the person going through it, it only helps the people around them from not having to deal with the kid. There are other ways to disipline kids (ie timeout, withholding unnessesary disired things like cheetoes) , and they should be used early on so that the kid knows not to fear the reprecusions but to know that they will happen and wont hurt. Using pain as a parenting tool is for lazy parents that don't want to deal with their kid.

[James Cizuz]

imo... "rodding" the child does nothing but make them resent and teach them more violence... find what a child likes and take that away from them... :)
Children like not being hurt, take that away from them when they do something they shouldn't.

[cyberfields]

actually... i learned to resent it...(even though i was abused) but yea... a child can see this as unfair treatment... like mommy and daddy dont get whipped when they mess up... hmmm...

[Reco]

There is other ways to discourage misbehavior. People have built civilization, so they can think of another way to control misbehavior. If I was hit when I was a child, I don't think I would have loved my parents anymore. I would not be able to love the source of pain. Pain from dad = dad is pain. Guidence from dad = dad is a leader. Leaders get love and following while pain gets fear.

[Shinomori]

Children like not being hurt, take that away from them when they do something they shouldn't.

Invert it.

Children like being given good things, give that to them when they do something they should.

And then you don't have the CHANCE of them despising you.

I, for one, think that's worth it.

[Undying]

Invert it.
Children like being given good things, give that to them when they do something they should.
And then you don't have the CHANCE of them despising you.
I, for one, think that's worth it.
We have just agreed on something. That is, exactly, is my thoughts on the matter.
Oh shit, this post is too short, is it? -.-

Vampy: YES! :angry:

[James Cizuz]

There is other ways to discourage misbehavior. People have built civilization, so they can think of another way to control misbehavior. If I was hit when I was a child, I don't think I would have loved my parents anymore. I would not be able to love the source of pain. Pain from dad = dad is pain. Guidence from dad = dad is a leader. Leaders get love and following while pain gets fear.
Yet still stands the most effective way to discourage misbehavior is to discipline a child, with pain. Just as with anyone. I'm kind of confused here, so a dad can not offer guidance, and punish a child? Time and time again it's been shown telling a child something is wrong just doesn't work, on average. Sometimes it does, however a child can not comprehend why most things we deem are wrong, are wrong. Most children will learn why they are wrong, or learn "submissive judgment". If you tell a child something is wrong, most times he will do it. Punish the child for doing a wrong action, he still won't know why it's wrong, however he will know what happens if he does such a thing. Guidance just does not work for most things. A child may respect you, however say something is wrong, they will end up doing it. Tell them it's wrong after that and explain it, they will do it again. Hit the child, he won't do it again.

Invert it.
Children like being given good things, give that to them when they do something they should.
And then you don't have the CHANCE of them despising you.
I, for one, think that's worth it.
This is the problem with our society now a days. We are brought up thinking we need a reward for what we do. A majority anyway. In no instance should anyone be given something for doing something they should. All this teaches them is if they do it, they will get rewarded, or should be rewarded. In many cases if they are not rewarded after you hard-wired into their heads doing this will get them an award, they will no longer do as they should. People are not animals, we should not be rewarded for doing anything. If we do something worthy of a reward, then we should get it. However acting normally never. A punishment works in a different way however, in most cases you will only have to punish a child a few times. He does something wrong after you tell him not to, beat him. The next time hopefully he will understand "I will get hit if I do <insert thing parent told me not to do.". Even if it's true you were going to hit him or not, it gets lodged in there, and they will hopefully understand to follow your guidance then.

[Shinomori]

People are not animals, we should not be rewarded for doing anything.

That's the problem - people ARE animals.

Aside from technicalities (we're in the animalia domain, after all), humans have always responded to positive reinforcement. Why do people work harder at their jobs? They work harder so they can get a better job - so they can make more money. Positive reinforcement. They don't work harder because they're afraid of being fired. There is always that carrot dangling in front of their head that they can bite at.

Our problem starts when we begin to think of ourselves as something more than animalistic. We may be the most evolved animal, true, but we are still animals. To say we are not is to say we've become something "better" than them, yet we share the same characteristics. We have to breathe, we have to circulate essential nutrients, we have to be sentient. We are no different than animals except in the extent to which we have developed our ability to reason.

We still have primal instincts. Why do people go hunting for "the thrill of the hunt"? Why does "the thrill of the hunt" even EXIST? Because we were evolved from animals that needed to hunt. We still, deep down, remember that emotion - it's ingrained into humans.

Why do we group together? We build cities and group together for two reasons. We are social creatures, needing interaction. But the more important is that human beings group together for PROTECTION. Where does that feeling come from? After all, were a human being to live on his own in the wilderness, they could. Most, if not all, animals are more afraid of humans than humans are afraid of them. We live in cities because of the perceived need of protection from when we were not the alpha species.

I believe the same is true for positive reinforcement. From the dawn of time, animals have worked harder in order to get rewards. A lion works as hard as he can to catch prey because, if he does it the best, he gets the lioness he wants. The hyena works as hard as he can to become the strongest so he can kill the leader and take over the position.

They don't do it for fear of getting beaten on, for fear of being kicked out of the group. They do it for the reward. And I believe that human beings share this same innate thought process - we are more inclined to try our hardest, to do our best, if there is some reward at the end of the tunnel.

[Guy]

Heh, encouragement works, but it's not the only way. I've seen it happen before, both to me and other people. At first, my teacher tried to reward us with candy and stuff, but later, people like me just decided to act like a smart aleck and said, "Teacher, I don't need your reward. I'm fine with how things are right now." That was when she decided she would threaten to smack us with rulers. Afterwards, everyone seemed to obey.

[James Cizuz]

That's the problem - people ARE animals.

Wow, I state people are not animals in respect to how we train them. Don't start and learn the context of how English is worded.

Aside from technicalities (we're in the animalia domain, after all), humans have always responded to positive reinforcement. Why do people work harder at their jobs? They work harder so they can get a better job - so they can make more money. Positive reinforcement. They don't work harder because they're afraid of being fired. There is always that carrot dangling in front of their head that they can bite at.

Again, there is a difference between working hard, and doing the normal response.

Our problem starts when we begin to think of ourselves as something more than animalistic.

Context, learn it. If you read other posts of mine you should already know something is up when I say something like "people are not humans" and it should HINT to you that I must be talking in context on how we train them.

[Shinomori]

Wow, I state people are not animals in respect to how we train them. Don't start and learn the context of how English is worded.

Don't make me get angry - I've been looking for an excuse to shoot my mouth off and get punished, it hasn't happened recently.

What you said is what I quoted.

Word for word.

If you don't want it to be "misunderstood", then say it in a way that does not allow for misunderstanding. Say "People do not learn like animals." Say "People do not react in the same ways as animals."

But don't take your patronizing tone with me.

Again, there is a difference between working hard, and doing the normal response.

What difference? In both of them, we are not misbehaving. Is it not more noble for us to push children to do better than average? Shouldn't we teach our kids not just to not throw stones at windows, but to help people whose windows have been broken?

Why should we settle for mediocrity?

People who settle for mediocrity usually do so because there is no REWARD FOR THEM TO DO BETTER. Picture someone who's constantly just surviving getting axed, cut, fired, what have you. Why, you say, are they always that close? Are they TRYING to be as close as possible without getting there? No, they'll say it's because THEY HAVE NO MOTIVATION TO DO BETTER. Without a reward, we encourage mediocrity. If someone is in a dead-end job, with nowhere to go but down but not enough benefit to make them like that job, what happens? They quit, and find somewhere else where they can do better.

To get back on topic, what I believe is this - if you "rod" a child, they may achieve mediocrity. They may do what is required to avoid a beating. But if you give a child a reason to be the BEST, and that reason is strong enough, then not only can you pull a child out of degeneration, you can pull him PAST mediocrity and into what most would describe as a "model citizen".

And isn't that better than having a nation of mediocrity?

[James Cizuz]

Don't make me get angry - I've been looking for an excuse to shoot my mouth off and get punished, it hasn't happened recently.
What you said is what I quoted.
Word for word.
If you don't want it to be "misunderstood", then say it in a way that does not allow for misunderstanding. Say "People do not learn like animals." Say "People do not react in the same ways as animals."
But don't take your patronizing tone with me.

I did in fact say that. In context, stretched about 2-3 sentences out.

What difference? In both of them, we are not misbehaving. Is it not more noble for us to push children to do better than average? Shouldn't we teach our kids not just to not throw stones at windows, but to help people whose windows have been broken?

Misunderstood the context. This was a reply to training a child to do the normal, right thing. Not the overly average right thing. If someone does something, normally others wouldn't, it might deem a reward, never said it did. Such as helping someone for nothing, getting 95% on the test without being asked to study, etc. This is for normal children, not the ones who excel, and even the ones who excel to normal reactions to most of there daily lives.

Why should we settle for mediocrity?
People who settle for mediocrity usually do so because there is no REWARD FOR THEM TO DO BETTER. Picture someone who's constantly just surviving getting axed, cut, fired, what have you. Why, you say, are they always that close? Are they TRYING to be as close as possible without getting there? No, they'll say it's because THEY HAVE NO MOTIVATION TO DO BETTER.

Show one study that came to that conclusion. Even though this is not what I argued, show one study. People have it hard wired into them to try there hard, to get the best life possible. More so then others.

Without a reward, we encourage mediocrity. If someone is in a dead-end job, with nowhere to go but down but not enough benefit to make them like that job, what happens? They quit, and find somewhere else where they can do better.

Most people never quit a job when they know they can not get something else. They know they need it, even though this has NOTHING to do with what I said.

To get back on topic, what I believe is this - if you "rod" a child, they may achieve mediocrity. They may do what is required to avoid a beating. But if you give a child a reason to be the BEST, and that reason is strong enough, then not only can you pull a child out of degeneration, you can pull him PAST mediocrity and into what most would describe as a "model citizen".
And isn't that better than having a nation of mediocrity?
Funny, most people will do it for self-satisfaction. Beating only negates a person from doing something bad. Give someone a reward for doing something normal, then they do something bad and get nothing. Thing is, they still don't lose anything, they can rationalize to do without the reward and do the bad act because it means more then the reward.


Btw, before you try and argue again. Remember in summation I said no one should get a reward for doing a mediocre activity. For doing the normal. Rewards are reserved for doing something more then normal.

[Jeggo]

Imo if a parent hurts his child , he influences it to become more angry and hateful towards other people. Ive seen this story many times...

I know a guy whose parents hurted him .. and i mean seriously a lot....The result was him being a total ass.. no not an ass , he had crossed the borders of ass-ness. He was getting retard. He hurted others as his parents hurted him... Many people , and specially this guy felt , HORRIBLE 'cause of his omfgwtfSTUPID parents..

[Vladimir]

if you spare the rod, you gonna spoil your own child.. i'm not saying until abusing.. it's always the last resort.

Imo if a parent hurts his child , he influences it to become more angry and hateful towards other people. Ive seen this story many times...

I know a guy whose parents hurted him .. and i mean seriously a lot....The result was him being a total ass.. no not an ass , he had crossed the borders of ass-ness. He was getting retard. He hurted others as his parents hurted him... Many people , and specially this guy felt , HORRIBLE 'cause of his omfgwtfSTUPID parents..

if your child is way over, the only thing to get it in his mind is by the rod. yea they may end up being angry and violence but it's up to them whether they wish to follow what their parents are doing.. they should know how it hurts and why they do it.. i'm saying if they have their own family. there's a thin line between people thinking it's abusing and teaching a lesson. you must know both story before you say anything or judge anything.

[Daft Punk]

Interesting debate. I personally believe it's possible to raise a child without ever hitting them. The majority of children aren't born with the instinct to rebel against what their parents tell them. Often times if you tell a child not to something, they do it more out of the curiosity of what will happen if it's done, than the urge to rebel. I don't really think it's neccessary to reward them for good behavior either. Good behavior should be a standard, but you shouldn't hit them for bad. Punishment doesn't have to involve physicality at all, just taking something from them or grounding them seems to be generally effective with most children. There are certain cases of course where this doesn't work, but broadly, most children will learn right from wrong without being beaten. Atleast thats my opinion.

[Vladimir]

Interesting debate. I personally believe it's possible to raise a child without ever hitting them. The majority of children aren't born with the instinct to rebel against what their parents tell them. Often times if you tell a child not to something, they do it more out of the curiosity of what will happen if it's done, than the urge to rebel. I don't really think it's necessary to reward them for good behavior either. Good behavior should be a standard, but you shouldn't hit them for bad. Punishment doesn't have to involve physicality at all, just taking something from them or grounding them seems to be generally effective with most children. There are certain cases of course where this doesn't work, but broadly, most children will learn right from wrong without being beaten. At least thats my opinion.

yes i do agree to the certain extent. but if talking doesn't work, would you talk again? i know patience is needed, but WHAT IF it didn't work. you can't sit down and wait for something to happen? I'm not saying that we have to but as the last resort. if talking don't work, the rod does.

[Daft Punk]

Talking only doesn't work on the aforementioned "special cases". With most children if you talk to them or punish them without physical harm, it will work.

[Harley Quinn]

You don't have to hit a child to punish them in most cases if you stick them in a room on their own without anything to do it usually gets the message across.However......I was smacked on the back of the legs as a child and it did me the power of good.As a result I have always been respectful of my elders.

Maybe it does teach the child to be agressive and maybe some children do hate their parents for it, but not me.I have never hit or been in a fight in my entire life and I love my parents endlessly.

I think the key to it is hitting them but not to the extent that it hurts, shock tactics work wonders.

So I say if the talking and time outs don't work a small whack is Ok.

[Vladimir]

it all ends to the child himself.
the parent can scold, beat them up and do watver but if the child is still stubborn, what differ does it make. the parent tjust wasted the enegy but the child won't care.
if a child is born good natured, his parent doesn't have to beat him up. doesn't have to use the rod. it's all up to the child himself.

[StormsFury]

It has been my experience that every situation has its own reward/punishment..To actually "beat" a child, no, I would not agree, but if all they are getting is a smack on the butt, hand, or the mouth then so be it. That type of smack does not have to be hard, just the shock of you doing it will be enough in most cases, but you have to reinforce it with a few words, don't make a speech of it cause you'll just loose their attention..A simple no or stop or that is not something you say...These types of things would be for the young ones..As they get older you as a parent will have to change with them..Obviously a time out is not gonna work on a tween or teenager..If they have an active social life for instance, if they have done something wrong, tell them what it is they did and that the punishment is that they are not going to participate in whatever social activity they had planned...Now if they have done something above "good" or "normal" expetations then give them the reward of extra time to be away at their activity..If they drive, it works the same way...punishment for wrong:take the car keys for the day/night...reward:give them gas money and extra time to be gone...Like I said above, the parent has to grow with the child or you'll both be frustrated in the end...There are some cases though, where the parent has no controll at all, wheter it was their fault or an underlying problem with the child themselves, but if they are the "good" parent they will seek outside help and not resort to "beating" the message into the child...I do also understand the culture side of this and the "old school" side of disipline...If it is your cultures standard practice to "highly" disiplin then that is how it is until you move away or other circumstances arise...If you want old school, then you should find someone that is probably your grandparents age and ask them how it was..Not to mention if you have a grandparent that went to a Catholic school way back in the day, they were extremely strict..And just as a side note:::I have 2 teenagers, one will graduate in 2yrs and the other in 3yrs, so I have gone through the biggest chunk of the disipline/reward issues and neither one of my kids hold anything I have done against me, we have also been able to come to a mom/best friend level..Everyone knows when I have to be the Mom but they also know that me as a best friend on things is extremly helpful...

[KT Samurai]

It seems like a lot of you who think "spanking" are thinking "regular beatings". Allowing parents the option of forcefully correcting a particular stubborn or stupid child isn't permitting assault and battery on said child, it's simply allowing a long-established and timeless method of raising kids.

Yes, if a parent kicks their kid down a flight of stairs once a day then they should be jailed, but removing the threat of a good backhand can make a kid cocky, arrogant, and a little bastard.

[Sushi]

Children don't deserve to be hit, but simply sitting them in a room for awhile and calling it a "time-out" isn't a good solution either. It just doesn't work. Whenever I got a timeout when I was younger, I thought of different names to call my parents, not about what I did, and parents shouldn't be so naive to assume that.

Spanking isn't wrong when done correctly, but aprents are only human, and when provoked enough and angry enough, they take out their frustrations on the child. The spanking can get out of hand and quickly lead to unneccesary hitting and abuse. One smack on the ass is fine, but pulling children by the hair, pinching, scratching, throwing items, and actually getting into a physical fight with a child constitutes as abuse. I agree that one or two smacks is a good way to show children their place, but if the adult cannot control him/herself to the point where they could possibly abuse the child, then there needs to be another alternative.

[ichihime]

punishment by the rod does not instill the 'respect' so many adults crave for today, the child will not do what was wrong because he fears you, not through any of this so called respect. If you bring up your child from birth in a decent loving household, where firm morales and rules are instilled there should be no problem.

Also what would a child do that is punishable by beating eh? taking a cookie?

and if you instill fear, you will instill resentment.

[Graffik]

Personally I beleive that a firm lecture is the best remedy to misconduct in a childs earlier years, however, the rod is a powerful tool when used in the correct context and method. A parent first and foremost has got to first make sure the children know the difference between the right and wrong. Then when the child screws up a lecture is given, and in the case where a lecture wasn't enough and the child still does that stupid crap, the rod makes a powerful disciplinary tool.

I come from immigrant parents who were new to the 'modern world' with home television, arcades, and kid's who disrespect parents, teachers and etc. So they knew instilling the proper ethics in me, was important in making me who I am today. Of course with all the 'bad influences' around me, I was sometimes headstrong, and defiant to their 'teachings' and wouldn't take their words seriously. So there came the belt, an object that when I was ages 7-11 I came to recognize as my one true 'parent'. If I did something stupid, my parents would first talk it out with me then attempt to fix it like that. If I did the same thing again, well yea ol' trusty sidekick got some action then. And after that, they'll have another lecture with me, and letting me know I was important to them, and they didn't want to see me down that 'road'. After 11 years, they decided my respect for them showed now that I wanted to do good for them to please them, and not out of fear of them, and thus a lecture/warning/ and advice was what they gave me. Now I am who I am today, a respectful student with good grades, and good manners/demeanor etc. Of course I'm not the model son, I still screw up, still think 'selfishly' but hey I'm human, and the rod was an important thing in letting me realize that. Without both methods of parenting, it is extremely difficult to raise children, African-americans like myself, beat our kids 'too much' the result kids who're scared shitless of their pops and 'mums' and never got advice/lectures and don't really understand what they do wrong. While other ethnicities do opposite and spoil kids. Parenting is difficult, parents shouldn't fall pray to 'social correctness' and rather rely on real-time vets in this department, they're parents, I was raised in comparison to my parents and many of you the same way. Just my 2 cents..

[SaberBlade]

If a parent doesn't believe in hitting a child, i'd glady smack the crap out of it to teach it a lesson.

I don't believe in this new age bullshit about now hitting kids. Trust me, My mum is like 5ft and when I was a kid she scared me shitless when she was angry. She didn't believe in hitting, but damn her being pissed off and ready to do it was a great motivator. Just calling me was enough to make me cry when I was.

Now if my 5ft mum can use the threat of hitting to scare me (and believe me, I could kick the ass of every male member in my family) then I don't see why it's something that could be considered wrong.

I don't believe that hurting a kid leads to discipline. I think that discipline comes from a multitude of factors. Taking a belt to a child is not discipline, beating them is not discipline, but i'd have no problem with leaning a kid over my leg and smacking them. Fear is where real discipline comes into play. A kid will do anything for you if he fears you, and there are many different ways to do that because if you are random with punishments (spank, not spank, send to room, take toys away) then you will disciple a child because in the end, if all they fear is you hitting them then they'll do anything.

[Crimson_Stigmata]

>_>" My parents did both a time out and the spanking cause I was a very very evil child. >_<""

Time out was kneeling with arms folded across the chest for an hour- 2 hour staring at the wall. If I moved I get a rod to the butt or feet.

That's how my parents did it and I don't think I'll be doing that to my kids. Maybe the kneeling cause that was really painful >_<". And if they get up or move they get more minutes added.

[Dradam]

My Dad would hit me to punish me, me being me, would find the line at which he'd snap a push it to the limits. So he deliberately kept moving the line, meant i got hit regularly.
It forms discipline and will, in me it created self-confidence, after a while i got used to being hit and it didn't, make a blind bit of difference to me. So for me all it did was make me determined, toughened me up, and made me disciplined. (If i moved when the punishment was being dealt i got double, if i cried out or cried it would also be doubled.) When it came to getting into fights in high-school i never once cried never once felt remorse for breaking bones in self defence.
I admit it probably did do long lasting mental damage to me, but i am grateful for what it did to me...
However one thing my father was adamant about, was never using a weapon, he only ever used a stick once, and has regretted it ever since. He believed that by using the hand you felt the pain the child felt.
People who used sticks and rods to beat children i believe are sick, but the use of the hand like that simply shows care and the need for discipline.

[Sirius]

Personally I think it depends on the magnitude of the offense. I wouldn't hit a child for small things like secretly staying up and using the computer after I say it's bedtime. In scenarios like that I'd tend to do non-violent things. Disconnecting the computer for the next few days might be an example of a non-violent solution and would certainly get the message across.

However, if said child, in anger of my decision to disconnect his computer pulls out a bat and starts breaking the wall in protest then it might be time for a good old whipping eh?

I don't think parents should regularly hit their children, but when their children get way out of line there's often little alternative.

[ladyrukia]

i believe that the punishment should fit the age. when they babies maybe a swat on the diaper is enough and as the get older you need to find out what works. for some kids only a spankings will work. for others time outs will work and for others all you have to do is give a stern look or talk to them. adnd by the time the child becomes pre teen teenager then you go into no computer time no video games. start to take away things that they love.
Also i do believe in physical punshiments but not when your angry. If you decide to spank your child wait till you aren't as mad. take 5 mins then go and talk to the child and explain y they are going to get spanked. That what my parents did and i love them for it. they are the best parents that i know of............:winking56

[Hitsugaya Tōshirō]

i believe that the punishment should fit the age. when they babies maybe a swat on the diaper is enough and as the get older you need to find out what works. for some kids only a spankings will work. for others time outs will work and for others all you have to do is give a stern look or talk to them. adnd by the time the child becomes pre teen teenager then you go into no computer time no video games. start to take away things that they love.
Also i do believe in physical punshiments but not when your angry. If you decide to spank your child wait till you aren't as mad. take 5 mins then go and talk to the child and explain y they are going to get spanked. That what my parents did and i love them for it. they are the best parents that i know of............:winking56

Pretty much the same with me. I was always threatened with spankings but really, the short pain (which it was short) was agging enough to make me think twice about doing something bad, but it wasn't enough to traumatize or bruise my rear end.

I don't think my parents ever over did it too. It was usually just a swat on the hind-in and that was it (usually resulting in me crying and apologizing for what I did wrong). I only got spanked for major stuff though like deliberate disobedience (I think specifically it was repeated infractions like... I might have watched TV late night in my room when I was supposed to be asleep. First offense was your basic "turn off the tv and go to sleep" then I got my TV taken out of my room for a week." Well apparently I hadn't learned my lesson and being the dumb kid that I was, I did the same thing again and I think that's where I got a couple swats on the rear). Aside from that I think acting up in Church was another thing XD. (I think at some point or other we can remember being taken out of the service on Sunday to the bathroom and either having a stern talking to about our behavior or a swat on the end XD).

Anyhow, yes, spankings always did hurt but lol I'll always thank my parents for doing it simply because it was an effective way to train me to second guessing doing stuff that I wasn't supposed to. There are alternatives to it and I'd have to say that over using spanking is definitely not the way to go but if used properly it can be a good way of teaching your kids how to behave.

[xiphosforr]

i don't agree with hitting a child at all- you just have to let them know that what they did was wrong and is not tolerable-
example:
your child gets into a fight at school, they started the fight for no substantial reason- to punish your child you hit them; this means your telling your child that hitting is wrong and your telling your child this by hitting them. i'm not saying you shouldn't punish them i'm just saying there are other ways of punishing a child without physically punishing them.

[+mw.pmi]

Spare the rod, you hate the Child.

I'm the product of a proper ass-whooping, and I turned out pretty damn good. No weed smoking, no jail time, prison time, no murdering anyone. Straight University, Careers in numerous occupations and endeavors that shall last me a lifetime, as well as morals that are Golden, which I may pass on to my Seed (Children), and issue forth finances to help support them when they are ready to lead the way towards Leadership in all their hopes and dreams.

Whoop Your Kids Asses! It Helps!

[Godsgift2Wome]

Oh man I could give lectures as long as the ones you guys gave.....but I wont....I got spankins when I was little and afterwards sent to my room so I learned quick whats wrong right

I not sayin im perfect or anything but a lot better than what I could have been..

[yume_morpheus]

Don't believe in it, will never believe in it. Corporal punishment is merely an outdated notion, like beating your wife. In any case, the number of examples in my time I have found that are contrary to the 'possiblities' of of a peaceful household is staggeringly high. Don't be stupid.

[Xalala]

In my opinion, I'm glad my parents spank me when I got into trouble. And let me tell ya, I learned real fast what was right and was wrong by it. And personally, kids today seem to need a little spanking. The amount of stuff kids today can get away with now is just ridiculous. So in short, I have no problem with spanking being a disciplinary action in parenting, at least it kept me out of trouble...most of the time.