Zaraki Kenpachi versus Hitsugaya Toushiro [Archive] - Page 2

Omoide

10-29-2007, 02:58 PM

As for Hitsugaya freezing Zaraki, i believe he could do it......if he attacked Zaraki from the back. Cause that's how Rukia did it. She utilized a surprise attack. Without the surprise element, i see it more like how Hitsugaya was unable to freeze Shawlong.

You are just assuming that Hitsugaya will be able to attack from behind and Zaraki won't be able to defend it. And that's all Hitsugaya needs to win the fight - that is to freeze Zaraki long enough for him to do the 'ultimate' attack of his bankai. However, I doubt that Hits will be able to have the chance to 'charge up' his attack to really matter (if Zaraki really wants to just kill the frost prodigy).

jonat3

10-29-2007, 03:54 PM

If they have a sword they have a release.

It was stated the sword was what held from their true form.

Arrancar w/sword - releasable

I don't know if an arrancar can 'not' have a sword. Only cared about the ones I've seen which did.

I did not say that Nakim didn't have a sword and that he didn't have the POTENTIAL for a release. I merely stated that Nakim was not at the level of obtaining his release, same way that some shinigami cannot obtain bankai, even though the POTENTIAL for it is still there.

You are just assuming that Hitsugaya will be able to attack from behind and Zaraki won't be able to defend it. And that's all Hitsugaya needs to win the fight - that is to freeze Zaraki long enough for him to do the 'ultimate' attack of his bankai. However, I doubt that Hits will be able to have the chance to 'charge up' his attack to really matter (if Zaraki really wants to just kill the frost prodigy).

No, actually i'm assuming Hitsugaya WON'T be able to use a surprise attack on Zaraki. If he DID use a surprise attack, he could freeze Zaraki same way Rukia did Grimmjow. But since it's pretty damn unlikely he will succeed in surprising Zaraki, i see it unfold more like how Hitsugaya was unable to freeze Shawlong.

Seff vi Britannia

10-29-2007, 05:16 PM

Jay3205

10-29-2007, 05:50 PM

I don't see why there is a belief that Nakim couldn't release. He was beaten nearly as fast as D-Roy. He thought his opponent was a weakling right until the moment he was slashed in the shoulder, and by then it was too late to recover.

jonat3

10-29-2007, 06:05 PM

No, Jonat. It's nothing to do with "potential to gain a release."

If they are a Arrancar. If they have a non-broken Zanpaku-to.

Then they can go into a released state where they take on partially their old form. If they are arrancar with sword they can do it. The weakest hollow (presuming he had the strength to become an arrancar) could do it.

It's nothing to do with potential - they don't need to "earn" it like bankai, they just have it. Simple. Nakim was an arrancar. Nakim had a release. Simple. End of story.

X.Seff.X, i GET your point. I fully understand the reasoning. When an arrancar release was shown for the first time, evrybody else was raving about what their bankais would look like. It was ME that was the first guy that pointed out that an arrancar release would likely be their only release, because they probably worked in a different way than shinigami. I should know, i was following the 3 main boards concerning bleach very closely, including this one.

But i simply don't agree on this occasion. If you want to know why, go read several pages back where i explained it all. And THAT is the end of that.

I don't see why there is a belief that Nakim couldn't release. He was beaten nearly as fast as D-Roy. He thought his opponent was a weakling right until the moment he was slashed in the shoulder, and by then it was too late to recover.

For the simple reason that mangaka are not in the habit of letting characters die without showing what they are capable of. Why? Cause the mangaka doesn't expect the readers to be psychic. He did not show he had a release. As of such, you can't say he had a release or that he did not. Only, it's very likely he had not for the above reason i described.

In D.Roy's case, it's atleast SHOWN he had a release, even if we did not see it.

Jay3205

10-29-2007, 10:05 PM

For the simple reason that mangaka are not in the habit of letting characters die without showing what they are capable of. Why? Cause the mangaka doesn't expect the readers to be psychic. He did not show he had a release. As of such, you can't say he had a release or that he did not. Only, it's very likely he had not for the above reason i described.When the character is a minor character with only 1 line and no plot significance, there's no reason not to just kill him off.

Also, from what I understand, the basic reasoning behind the belief that not all arrancar can release stems from the belief that an arrancar's zanpakutou is a partition of their soul that represents the will to fight. However, this isn't stated anywhere about arrancar, and it's explicitly stated that their zanpakutou is just their power sealed to prevent them from wasting power unnecessarily. Judging off those facts alone, there is not enough reason to say that their swords represent their fighting spirit or anything else besides their power. Anything added on top of that is just theory.

jonat3

10-29-2007, 10:13 PM

When the character is a minor character with only 1 line and no plot significance, there's no reason not to just kill him off.
Also, from what I understand, the basic reasoning behind the belief that not all arrancar can release stems from the belief that an arrancar's zanpakutou is a partition of their soul that represents the will to fight. However, this isn't stated anywhere about arrancar, and it's explicitly stated that their zanpakutou is just their power sealed to prevent them from wasting power unnecessarily. Judging off those facts alone, there is not enough reason to say that their swords represent their fighting spirit or anything else besides their power. Anything added on top of that is just theory.

It IS a theory, i never denied that. But it makes sense to me.

As for your argument regarding their sealed forms, i already gave an explanation to Undying regarding that. It's several pages back as well.

And anyways, believe it or not, i never even thought that Nakim had a release, even before i formulated this theory. For the exact reason i just stated.

Now, i can perfectly understand if you disagree with me, there's hardly any evidence afterall. But this is what makes sense to me and i'll see if i am right or not when more information comes along.

Seff vi Britannia

10-30-2007, 12:02 AM

nakim had a release. He didn't have time to use it. Just like D-roy. End of story.

jonat3

10-30-2007, 12:03 AM

nakim had a release. He didn't have time to use it. Just like D-roy. End of story.

X.Seff.X, you are being stubborn now. It's no crime to disagree. Just leave it be.

KholdStare

10-30-2007, 05:24 AM

I did not say that Nakim didn't have a sword and that he didn't have the POTENTIAL for a release. I merely stated that Nakim was not at the level of obtaining his release, same way that some shinigami cannot obtain bankai, even though the POTENTIAL for it is still there.

Byakuya said this, and I quote from Wiki because I am too lazy to find the chapter:

Byakuya Kuchiki claims that among the four noble houses of Soul Society, only one person in several generations will be born with the spiritual power necessary to achieve it.

So there are certain people whose reiatsu is not high enough to even have the potential to reach bankai.

jonat3

10-30-2007, 02:55 PM

Byakuya said this, and I quote from Wiki because I am too lazy to find the chapter:
So there are certain people whose reiatsu is not high enough to even have the potential to reach bankai.

Yes, if i were to compare that to the menos, it would be those menos grande that are mindless creatures. Hybridizing those creatures will make them look like the one that chased Ishida in Karakura town and they will be unable to release or attain a human form after hybridization, because they don't have the necesary reiatsu or intelligence.

Nakim was the closest to a mindless menos based on his previous form.

KholdStare

10-30-2007, 04:55 PM

Yes, if i were to compare that to the menos, it would be those menos grande that are mindless creatures. Hybridizing those creatures will make them look like the one that chased Ishida in Karakura town and they will be unable to release or attain a human form after hybridization, because they don't have the necesary reiatsu or intelligence.
Nakim was the closest to a mindless menos based on his previous form.

I don't think you understand what I said. You said that every shinigami has the POTENTIAL for a bankai. This is not the case. Byakuya stated there there are some who simply don't have enough reiatsu to have one.

jonat3

10-30-2007, 05:40 PM

I don't think you understand what I said. You said that every shinigami has the POTENTIAL for a bankai. This is not the case. Byakuya stated there there are some who simply don't have enough reiatsu to have one.

I understood what you said. But i didn't go deeper into it, because i didn't want to bother explaining what i meant with potential, because i'm using the word in a slightly different context. But i guess i'll have to explain anyway, since you insist.

Every shinigami has a bankai release. Even the ones that can't attain it. Paradox? Not really. Shikai by its very definition implies only a PARTIAL release. Bankai is the TRUE form of the zanpakutou. It's just that most shinigami can't unlock that true form, because they don't have the reiatsu for it.

What i am trying to get at, is that every shinigami theoretically has a bankai (or true form), because as a species, bankai is one of their abilties. If Hanatarou is injected with a shitload of reiatsu through some freak experiment of Mayuri, he could possibly attain bankai, because every shinigami has the potential of bankai. It's one of the inherent abilities of being a shinigami. Just like how arrancar have only one release, because that's one of the inherent abilties of their species.

Zanga

11-03-2007, 02:12 AM

Zaraki wins straight up now.

Zaraki blocks Noitra's attack like it was nothing. I doubt Hitsugaya can do that.

FullMetal Rebel

11-03-2007, 04:34 AM

Zaraki wins straight up now.
Zaraki blocks Noitra's attack like it was nothing. I doubt Hitsugaya can do that.

THIS.

Hitsugaya couldn't scratch Yammi, yet Zaraki blocked Noitora.

Thread over.

KholdStare

11-03-2007, 05:29 AM

THIS.
Hitsugaya couldn't scratch Yammi, yet Zaraki blocked Noitora.
Thread over.
And the fact that he slashed through a released arrancar and had a 1 hit KO just proves it even further.

Twister1352

11-03-2007, 05:35 AM

yea, hitsu has no chance.

What I'm wondering is.. how is zaraki so strong all of a sudden? I mean Bankai Vaizard Ichigo definitely > him but still he was at shikai ichigo's level during the ss arc..

jonat3

11-03-2007, 05:47 AM

Two possible explanations:

-Nell really lowered Noitora's power with her release

OR

-Zaraki has shikai, putting him on similar level as bankai ichigo

Twister1352

11-03-2007, 06:06 AM

Two possible explanations:
-Nell really lowered Noitora's power with her release
OR
-Zaraki has shikai, putting him on similar level as bankai ichigo

two things about that

Zaraki was already in perminant shikai in the ss arc

and

Bankai ichigo < unreleased grimmjow so he would have to be a decent amount stronger than bankai ichigo

jonat3

11-03-2007, 06:21 AM

two things about that

Zaraki was already in perminant shikai in the ss arc
and
Bankai ichigo < unreleased grimmjow so he would have to be a decent amount stronger than bankai ichigo

I should have been more clear. i already know he has shikai. What i meant was that he has attained the ABILITY.

Anyways, bankai ichigo is roughly on the same level as unreleased Grimmjow. If he is below unreleased Grimmjow, it's not by alot (judging this from last fight between Ichigo and Grimmjow). That he got his ass kicked in previous rounds, was because he was inexperienced with his hollow side.

Now, Noitora still seems to be stronger than Grimmjow, so it's true that Zaraki learning his shikai ability would mean that he would need to get a larger powerup than Ichigo did when Ichigo learned to work together with his sword.

Seff vi Britannia

11-03-2007, 02:39 PM

Zaraki can stop the 5th espada's attack with no effort. Zaraki wins.

SenpaiRetsu

11-03-2007, 02:48 PM

Zaraki can stop the 5th espada's attack with no effort. Zaraki wins.

I agree, one handed mind you. Histugaya would have been cut in two

Twister1352

11-04-2007, 01:23 AM

I should have been more clear. i already know he has shikai. What i meant was that he has attained the ABILITY.
Anyways, bankai ichigo is roughly on the same level as unreleased Grimmjow. If he is below unreleased Grimmjow, it's not by alot (judging this from last fight between Ichigo and Grimmjow). That he got his ass kicked in previous rounds, was because he was inexperienced with his hollow side.
Now, Noitora still seems to be stronger than Grimmjow, so it's true that Zaraki learning his shikai ability would mean that he would need to get a larger powerup than Ichigo did when Ichigo learned to work together with his sword.

The first time ichigo and grimm met, ichigo just had bankai and he wasn't a vaizard yet. Grimmjow easily > him

Jay3205

11-04-2007, 01:29 AM

It's pretty safe to say that we should stop posting 5x in a row with only spoilers and conclude that Zaraki would win by a very large margin.

jonat3

11-04-2007, 01:41 AM

The first time ichigo and grimm met, ichigo just had bankai and he wasn't a vaizard yet. Grimmjow easily > him

The first time Ichigo met grimmjow, he hadn't MASTERED his vaizard powers yet, but he was already a vaizard. First round, Ichigo was in danger being taken over by his hollow, which was the reason he couldn't fight at full power in bankai mode.
Second round, he got severely exhausted after using his mask (as mentioned by Grimmjaw), which was why he couldn't fight optimally as well.

The third and last round, we see bankai Ichigo fight on par with an unreleased Grimmjow. It is the first time that ichigo could fight normally against grimmjow in bankai mode, without his hollow side weakening him.The only reason he bothered going vaizard mode, was to protect Inoue and Nell.

It's pretty safe to say that we should stop posting 5x in a row with only spoilers and conclude that Zaraki would win by a very large margin.

While i'm in the zaraki camp, i still think that it's likely he gained a powerup. I'll wait and see first how the next events unfold.

Twister1352

11-04-2007, 01:54 AM

The first time Ichigo met grimmjow, he hadn't MASTERED his vaizard powers yet, but he was already a vaizard. First round, Ichigo was in danger being taken over by his hollow, which was the reason he couldn't fight at full power in bankai mode.

Wrong, He had the hollow in him but it wasn't giving him power, it was trying to take over.

When he was a vaizard his hollow GIVES him power, and doesn't try to TAKE OVER compared to before he was a vaizard.

However, the part about him not fighting at his full potential because he was scared that his hollow was going to take over might possibly be true.

Guy

11-04-2007, 06:10 AM

Zaraki wins... after the latest manga chapter.

Yeah, he didn't beat Noitora, but the chances of him winning is definitely greater. Hitsugaya loses because he can't even beat Yami

Zanga

11-04-2007, 11:58 PM

Wrong, He had the hollow in him but it wasn't giving him power, it was trying to take over.

When he was a vaizard his hollow GIVES him power, and doesn't try to TAKE OVER compared to before he was a vaizard.

However, the part about him not fighting at his full potential because he was scared that his hollow was going to take over might possibly be true.

You only went and proved the point. Ichigo wasn't able to fight at full strength in bankai.

Their last fight however showed that Ichigo going at full bankai power with no worries and interuptions is about equal or maybe a little under(barely) Grimmjaw.

captainmawaluigi

11-15-2007, 11:41 PM

The time limit was explained by an enemy, so you cant say its true.

Something closer to look at, would be this. Rukia tried freezing Grimmjow, it didnt work much at all.

Hitsugaya tried freezing luppi, which worked for a bit, but didnt kill.

We can assume, Kenpachi could take Luppi or Grimmjow. Which were both 6's and are both weaker than Nnorita. So, with this weeks up coming battle, depending on which captains fight, we can assume which captain is stronger.

If Ken wins on his own, he is no doubt stronger than Hitsugaya.

Seff vi Britannia

11-15-2007, 11:44 PM

The time limit was explained by an enemy, so you cant say its true.

Yes we can, it's a literary technique. Kubo wouldn't have had Grimmjow say that if it wasn't true.

Something closer to look at, would be this. Rukia tried freezing Grimmjow, it didnt work much at all.
Hitsugaya tried freezing luppi, which worked for a bit, but didnt kill.

You're comparing a captain's bankai to a seated officer's shikai. Not only that, Grimm is stronger than Luppi. I hope you realise you made Rukia sound stronger right there...

We can assume, Kenpachi could take Luppi or Grimmjow.

How so?

Anyway, all captains > Hitsugaya.