Zaraki Kenpachi versus Hitsugaya Toushiro [Archive]

sweeter

09-05-2007, 02:34 AM

Guy

09-05-2007, 04:05 AM

Whoah, geez, if everyone thinks Hitsugaya will win... wouldn't that make Zaraki the WEAKEST captain of gotei?

Anyways, I'll probably have to side with most of you. Hitsugaya might win this one because he seems to be faster than Zaraki. I mean, he does have the strongest ice zanpakutou. Zaraki, without power ups from his sword, would be at a disadvantage.

@Undying: Wow... are you your normal self?

Undying

09-05-2007, 05:49 AM

Hitsugaya wins:

- If Hitsugaya has the common sense to use Shikai, which has no time limit, and attack at a range until Zaraki falls

- If Hitsugaya has the common sense to use Bankai and stay at a range powering up Thousand-year Ice Prison

Still, I don't really think Hitsugaya is smart enough to do so. I mean, he didn't exactly have the foresight that Gin would be able to impale Hinamori if he dodged (Ch. 132, p. 13 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/132/13/)). That thought completely passed his mind. If his vice-captain wasn't there...

Zaraki wins:

- If Hitsugaya uses Bankai and swordfights Zaraki. I think the time limit would be up before Zaraki's endurance gives out.

(:
Hitsugaya's bankai doesn't have a time-limit - the petals are a countdown to the Ice-Prison thing.
Anyways, I'll probably have to side with most of you. Hitsugaya might win this one because he seems to be faster than Zaraki. I mean, he does have the strongest ice zanpakutou. Zaraki, without power ups from his sword, would be at a disadvantage.
The strongest ice and water zanpakto. Don't go making him more than he is. It just so happens he's stronger than Zaraki because he has the elemental advantage and the ability to fly.
@Undying: Wow... are you your normal self?
Despite what people like to think, yes.

Nowitzki

09-05-2007, 05:51 AM

Hitsugaya has a technique besides waving his sword around.. and that's all it takes to beat Zaraki. :)

sweeter

09-05-2007, 06:23 AM

Ch. 218, p. 14 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/208/14/) incorporates "monologuing", a dramatic plot device used by authors where the villain reveals important information about the hero -- in this case Shawlong about Hitsugaya's Bankai. It's a fiction cliche, not to mention common sense.

Hitsugaya's Bankai has a time limit.

the petals are a countdown to the Ice-Prison thing.
I must've missed that. Where was this stated?

(:

Shercko

09-05-2007, 07:21 AM

If the petals is a time limit, and not a countdown, then i honestly think Zaraki would win. Here goes:

It's very likely that his endurance surpasses Hitsu's by a margin that Hitsu wouldn't even dare to think about.

It's also very likely that he is far stronger in terms of physichal power, in other words; MANLY strength!

Zaraki is absolutely fearless, and above all crazy. He's very unpredictable, something that wich i think Hitsu doesn't really know how to deal with.

I believe Zaraki has far, faaar more experience that Hitsu, so/and that when it comes to fighting, he's just a damn lot smarter.

His reiatsu. If he were to be frozen, be it by the ice-prison thingy or just from a normal blow, i think he would be quite able to break free. Maybe not just by help of his reiatsu(wich i also think), but by physichal strength and not to mention WILL and skills.

I also think that Hitsu would be afraid of Zaraki when he showed his battle-side of himself, simply because of his ridiculous reiatsu and insanity. Hitsu IS still just a kid in their eyes(the captains).

EDIT; It should also be mentioned that i like Zaraki better than Hitsugaya, so perhaps my judgement is clouded on that part. But i am by no means a fanboy even so.

dawin45

09-05-2007, 08:53 AM

<<<zaraki wins because hitsugaya is one of the weakest captains, if the battles lasts long enough it's in for the kill for zaraki,because all of the icy flowers will fall of hitsugaya's back...and hitsugaya's experience is very low in fighting fight powerfull enemy's...zaraki already fough with 1,2almost3 enemy's(in the anime)(and they where all captains).Zaraki was compared by tousen as a "demon from hell"...

Icestorm

09-05-2007, 09:28 AM

Hmm.. Well about the 'time limit' the only way that I can think of to prove that is the fact that in the movie after his petals ran out against that 'sword guy' his bankai disappeared. But then im not totally sure that, that is reliable enough to prove that point.. seeing as though I would think that perhaps thats due to the power restrictions and the drain that it has on his body not the actual petals.. I dont think he is actually capable of Ice Prison in his 'capped' state.

Undying

09-05-2007, 10:54 AM

I must've missed that. Where was this stated?
chapter 234 pp17 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/234/17/)-18 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/234/18/)-19 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/234/19/) and chapter 235 p1 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/235/1/) clearly show that Hitsugaya has NO PETALS on his back after he loaded his Millennium Prison attack.

Hence, logical conclusion: Ice petals = countdown to ultimae move.

jonat3

09-05-2007, 11:26 AM

chapter 234 pp17 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/234/17/)-18 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/234/18/)-19 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/234/19/) and chapter 235 p1 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/235/1/) clearly show that Hitsugaya has NO PETALS on his back after he loaded his Millennium Prison attack.

Hence, logical conclusion: Ice petals = countdown to ultimae move.

Those pics really don't prove anything. Afterall, the petals could only be seen when Hitsugaya was crashing down, but prior to that they were not in view. In other words, the petals could well be out of view, like they were before Hitsugaya went crashing down.

I for one think his bankai vanishes. When his bankai went to the LAST petal during his Shawlong fight, at that exact moment his bankai disappeared. Since Kubo bothered doing a close up of the petal vanishing till one was left and right after that Hitsugaya fainted and lost his bankai....well, you do the math.

As for wo would win, it would be Hitsugaya if he could launch his ice prison attack. But i pretty much doubt he could pull it off. Afterall, if he couldn't pull it off against Shawlong, he probably can't pull it off against Zaraki. It's really an attack that requires an ally to distract the opponent.

FullMetal Rebel

09-05-2007, 11:40 AM

Now I'll explain the obvious:

Thousand year ice prison=end for Zaraki. Zaraki doesn't stand a chance here, the guy doesn't even an Ultimate attack for gods sake,screw that any attack at all.

Or any range,which Hitsugaya has.

His reiatsu. If he were to be frozen, be it by the ice-prison thingy or just from a normal blow, i think he would be quite able to break free. Maybe not just by help of his reiatsu(wich i also think), but by physichal strength and not to mention WILL and skills.

I also think that Hitsu would be afraid of Zaraki when he showed his battle-side of himself, simply because of his ridiculous reiatsu and insanity. Hitsu IS still just a kid in their eyes(the captains).

Zaraki's reiatsu isn't really that big. He just doesn't put a cap on his,Byakuya has more than Zaraki. There has to be a way to cap your reiatsu, otherwise who would hang around Aizen,or Yama-ji?

sweeter

09-05-2007, 11:53 AM

chapter 234 pp17 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/234/17/)-18 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/234/18/)-19 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/234/19/) and chapter 235 p1 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/235/1/) clearly show that Hitsugaya has NO PETALS on his back after he loaded his Millennium Prison attack.

Hence, logical conclusion: Ice petals = countdown to ultimae move.
Hitsugaya's petals aren't perpetually on his back. It can stay at a distance so it isn't displayed, as it would distract from the fight scenes.

Here, the petals also aren't shown (Ch. 210, p. 12 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/210/12/), 13 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/210/13/)). Did they disappear? No. They simply aren't at Hitsugaya's back, but at a distance. We know that this and the fact that they have been fading as shown a little bit later (Ch. 211, p. 2 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/211/2/)).

The petals are a countdown until Hitsugaya's Bankai disappears. It is explicitly stated in the manga.

(:

FullMetal Rebel

09-05-2007, 11:54 AM

Zaraki was compared by tousen as a "demon from hell"...

It hasn't been proven if he was working under Aizen's "script" or not.So that doesn't say much, but being dropped by a nub says much:)

Shercko

09-05-2007, 12:06 PM

Undying

09-05-2007, 12:15 PM

@jonat and sweeter: we see Hitsugaya from QUITE a distance away in chapter 235 pg1 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/235/1/). As you can quite clearly see, there are no petals there, and we have a very wide view of the area. Now, unless you're saying they were blending perfectly with the ice-prison...

And also, if Hitsu manages to freeze Zaraki by stabbing him, Zaraki will not be able to break free (Luppi was unable to when Hitsugaya froze him from behind, despite being able to quite easily shatter through Hitsugaya's bankai before that) with ease, which will give Hitsugaya more time. Time is all he needs, really, because Millennium Ice-Prison is basically his winning card.

sweeter

09-05-2007, 12:26 PM

sweeter: we see Hitsugaya from QUITE a distance away in chapter 235 pg1 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/235/1/). As you can quite clearly see, there are no petals there, and we have a very wide view of the area. Now, unless you're saying they were blending perfectly with the ice-prison...
The speech bubble probably covered it. :b

Again, the petals are a countdown until Hitsugaya's Bankai disappears. It is explicitly stated in the manga.

And also, if Hitsu manages to freeze Zaraki by stabbing him, Zaraki will not be able to break free (Luppi was unable to when Hitsugaya froze him from behind, despite being able to quite easily shatter through Hitsugaya's bankai before that) with ease, which will give Hitsugaya more time. Time is all he needs, really, because Millennium Ice-Prison is basically his winning card.
True.

(:

Seff vi Britannia

09-05-2007, 12:49 PM

Zaraki's reiatsu isn't really that big. He just doesn't put a cap on his,Byakuya has more than Zaraki. There has to be a way to cap your reiatsu, otherwise who would hang around Aizen,or Yama-ji?

Zaraki's Reiatsu is bigger than Hitsugayas.

Hitsugaya's reiatsu scared Kira. On the other hand, Zaraki's screwed Ichigo over until he had the whole inner soul thing. (and he was patched)

Considering Ichigo had just defeated Renji, a stronger VC than Kira

(Renji is the only VC to have achieved bankai - logic dictates he is the strongest, even if he didn't use it against Ichigo.)

We can therefore say Zaraki reiatsu > Hitsugaya reiatsu.

In addition, senen hyourinmaru has a very long charge time. I doubt Hitsugaya would be able to pull it off against Zaraki.

Undying

09-05-2007, 12:52 PM

The speech bubble probably covered it. :b

Again, the petals are a countdown until Hitsugaya's Bankai disappears. It is explicitly stated in the manga.
You'll say anything to make the "Hitsugaya's petals are a countdown" theory come true, eh?

The speech bubble is quite a distance away, not to mention your pictures show Hitsugaya from the front or from such an angle that the petals (which are mostly a short distance behind Hitsugaya although they follow him around) cannot be seen. When we get a full view of the scene, the petals aren't there...

h3h3h3

09-05-2007, 01:02 PM

I think Hitsugaya can take quite alot captains in Earth. In SS he's I think unfortunately weakest :(.

sweeter

09-05-2007, 01:10 PM

You'll say anything to make the "Hitsugaya's petals are a countdown" theory come true, eh?

I don't have to. It's a fact. Ch. 208 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/208/1/) speaks for itself. You just need common sense to understand it.

The speech bubble is quite a distance away,

That wasn't serious. :b

The point I was trying to make was, the author doesn't always need to show the petals, what's important is that he already explained the petals' function in Ch. 208 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/208/1/). It can't get any clearer than that.

not to mention your pictures show Hitsugaya from the front or from such an angle that the petals (which are mostly a short distance behind Hitsugaya although they follow him around) cannot be seen. When we get a full view of the scene, the petals aren't there...

Here's another example where the petals aren't shown (Ch. 208, p. 11 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/208/11/)). It shows Hitsugaya's back and the near distance, where the petals usually are, but the petals aren't there. This is because it would distract from the fight scene. We know that they exist and are fading, because the author shows them again in Ch. 208, p. 13 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/208/13/).

(:

smach

09-05-2007, 01:25 PM

Zaraki's Reiatsu is bigger than Hitsugayas.
proof?
Hitsugaya's reiatsu scared Kira. On the other hand, Zaraki's screwed Ichigo over until he had the whole inner soul thing. (and he was patched)
zaraki's reiatsu screwed up ichigo? when? all zaraki does is boast about being incapable of sealing his reiatsu n having a shikai/bankai.
Considering Ichigo had just defeated Renji, a stronger VC than Kira
umm ichigo beating renji doesn't make zaraki greater than hitsugaya.
(Renji is the only VC to have achieved bankai - logic dictates he is the strongest, even if he didn't use it against Ichigo.)
what does renji's bankai have to do with anything? he got his ass handed to him by a chilled-out byakuya. plus, this was AFTER his encounter with ichigo.
We can therefore say Zaraki reiatsu > Hitsugaya reiatsu.
nope, that's speculation.
In addition, senen hyourinmaru has a very long charge time. I doubt Hitsugaya would be able to pull it off against Zaraki.
now that's a possibility.

Undying

09-05-2007, 01:39 PM

I don't have to. It's a fact. Ch. 208 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/208/1/) speaks for itself. You just need common sense to understand it.
Shawlong is the user of the bankai, and has trained with it, so he obviously knows what the petals do and don't. You're really making sense.

That wasn't serious. :b

The point I was trying to make was, the author doesn't always need to show the petals, what's important is that he already explained the petals' function in Ch. 208 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/208/1/). It can't get any clearer than that.
Again, Shawlong is the user of Hyourinmaru and knows everything about it, eh? He didn't just assume it, just like he didn't even think that the shinigami weren't limited.

Here's another example where the petals aren't shown (Ch. 208, p. 11 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/208/11/)). It shows Hitsugaya's back and the near distance, where the petals usually are, but the petals aren't there. This is because it would distract from the fight scene. We know that they exist and are fading, because the author shows them again in Ch. 208, p. 13 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/208/13/).

(:
The difference between the scene you provided and mine is that in your case, we know the petals are a short distance away and we can see smoke that may be covering them (on the right side of the panel). In my scene, we see him from like a mile away and we see EVERYTHING around him. Unless you're trying to make the petals suddenly remain on the ground...

sweeter

09-05-2007, 01:53 PM

Dexter

09-05-2007, 02:13 PM

The petals are a countdown until Hitsugaya's Bankai disappears. It is explicitly stated in the manga.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but - it's never through Hitsugaya's own mouth.

Logically that's the best conclusion, but I wouldn't rule out Kubo allowing Hits to have his "mammoth" ability after the petals run out (a sort of Judgment type destruction power, before it fades)

--

neway Hitsugaya gets this one.. unless Zaraki forms a mass rampage of reiatsu and can break through the ice. But even then, look at the way Hitsugaya moved vs Gin. And Hitsu was only in shikai

sweeter

09-05-2007, 02:21 PM

Correct me if I'm worng, but - it's never through Hitsugaya's own mouth.
That's correct. But that doesn't change the fact that the author chose to explicitly state it in the manga.

I wouldn't rule out Kubo allowing Hits to have his "mammoth" ability after the petals run out (a sort of Judgement type destruction power, before it fades)
Maybe, in future chapters.

(:

Dexter

09-05-2007, 02:24 PM

That's correct. It's still explicitly stated in the manga, though.

Yep. But by others.
Maybe, in future chapters.

I don't want ppl shouting "ZOMG PLOT-FKING-KAI" if Hitsugaya DOES release something to beat an Espada due to that. Because it's obviously been accounted for, and it's not like Kubo would have just thought it up to "get himself out of a situation" that he had fking planned for since god knows when - which could be a reason Hits himself has not said anything

It's the only way I see him beating ANY espada in the Winter War.

sweeter

09-05-2007, 02:27 PM

Yep. But by others.
Kind of like how the author used Byakuya to tell the readers how Ichigo's Bankai operates.

(:

Shercko

09-05-2007, 02:29 PM

And also, if Hitsu manages to freeze Zaraki by stabbing him, Zaraki will not be able to break free (Luppi was unable to when Hitsugaya froze him from behind, despite being able to quite easily shatter through Hitsugaya's bankai before that) with ease, which will give Hitsugaya more time. Time is all he needs, really, because Millennium Ice-Prison is basically his winning card.
Well i believe the opposite. Because Zaraki is a pretty special character, and because i like taking pride in my twisted and sometimes incomprehensible opinions.

but I wouldn't rule out Kubo allowing Hits to have his "mammoth" ability after the petals run out (a sort of Judgment type destruction power, before it fades)
Very possible.

Dexter

09-05-2007, 02:31 PM

@sweeter: He wasn't taunting Ichigo with the knowledge of it tho. Ichigo had nothing to "support" or "deny"
I know where you're coming from. It's a valid point to assume it's the authour's method of transferring the relevant info.
I'm just saying don't be surprised if its something other than a total disengagement of his bankai

diamondedge

09-05-2007, 03:13 PM

Yep. But by others.
Doesn't matter who it was stated by.

Let's make comparison - since I know everything about Byakuya I'll use this - Ganju said Kuchiki is the head of noble families. Are you suggesting he is not just because Byakuya himself hasn't confirmed this afterwards? It's the way author chooses to tell the story. TBH it would be very boring if characters always told everything about themselves. You're writer so I'm quite surprised to hear that from you Dec.

Anyways on topic, since I've been a good girl and read the manga I'll go with Hitsugaya.

People who claim Thousand Years Ice Prison is too slow - wouldn't Zaraki say something, "come at me with everything you've got" and wait? Honestly, his biggest trait is his animal instinct which worked perfectly against ability that rendered his senses useless, but I doubt that would work against ranged Hyourinmaru. One he would get hit and frozen there is nothing that can save Zaraki.

As for Zaraki's reiatsu - indeed very impressive - still isn't the best one, in fact, it can be matched with Byakuya who is top of mid-tier, so it's FAR from the strongest. He wouldn't be able to blast Hitsugaya's attacks with it. What is he gonna do, go at it with his rusty sword?

Despite speed not being Hitsu's strongest trait, he could finish it off without waiting. Range = Zaraki's undoing so I even dare to go that far and say Hitsu'd "only" need shikai, judging by Zaraki's fighting style.

Seff vi Britannia

09-05-2007, 03:21 PM

Let's make comparison - since I know everything about Byakuya I'll use this - Ganju said Kuchiki is the head of noble families. Are you suggesting he is not just because Byakuya himself hasn't confirmed this afterwards? It's the way author chooses to tell the story. TBH it would be very boring if characters always told everything about themselves. You're writer so I'm quite surprised to hear that from you Dec.

I don't know if you agree that hitsugaya's bankai fades or not, but i'm going to snatch up your point and put it into a different context, as you described it far better than i could have done.

Shawlong said that Hitsugaya's bankai fades. Shawlong wasn't wrong, Hitsugaya didn't deny it or anything like that. Hitsugaya can perform senen hyourinmaru at any point in his bankai, but it has a large charge-up time.

Dexter

09-05-2007, 03:30 PM

Are you suggesting he is not just because Byakuya himself hasn't confirmed this afterwards?
As I already said: He wasn't taunting with the knowledge of it. He (in this case Byakuya) had nothing to "support" or "deny" - and we know if for a fact b/c it has been supported
BH it would be very boring if characters always told everything about themselves. You're writer so I'm quite surprised to hear that from you Dec.
As I also already said: I know where you're coming from. It's a valid point to assume it's the authour's method of transferring the relevant info.

BUT

I'm just saying don't be surprised if its something other than a total disengagement of his bankai

I feel like I just repeated a post.

Undying

09-05-2007, 04:38 PM

^^ It's called "monologuing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monologue)" or "exposition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposition_(plot_device))", specifically a "plot dump". It's a literary device and a fiction cliche.

Examples:
- When the author used Byakuya to explain how Ichigo's Bankai works
- When the author used Edorad to highlight the fragility of Ikkaku's Bankai
- When the author used Yama-jii to narrate Aizen's plan concerning the Sousei and the Juureichi
- Etc. etc.

It doesn't matter who the author chooses to deliver the information, what's important is that he does disclose such for the reader's benefit.

(:
And yet the author then shows something completely different later... which means that Shawlong wasn't completely right.

Also, Shawlong stated that Hitsugaya was pathetic. Then Hitsugaya released the limit and was far stronger than Shawlong (beating him with one attack). So, because Shawlong SAID Hitsugaya was nothing, and Hitsugaya didn't deny anything, it must mean that he is indeed weaker than Shawlong.

Monolguing is all fine and dandy when it isn't proved wrong a few chapters later.

Neko Bam

09-05-2007, 07:39 PM

I don't read the manga, but from the anime I can say Kenpachi totally pwns Hitsugaya with one hand tied on his back.

h3h3h3

09-05-2007, 07:55 PM

Ok, Lezz see.

Reiatsu: Zaraki(Byakuya for example): patched Reiatsu made Ganju knee, Byakuya made Ganju knee also, So patched Zaraki=Byakuya. Byakuya is more experienced so Hitsugaya has lower Reiatsu than Byakuya, So apparently Zaraki > Hitsugaya in reiatsu.

Speed: Zaraki: Can shunpo Manga chp. 109 p. 15, not necessarily as fast as some others but still can. Hitsugaya can shunpo also so basically Zaraki=Hitsugaya in speed.

Endurance: No question at all Zaraki>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hitsugaya.

Experience: Zaraki>Hitsugaya, obviously. And experience=power in Bleach.

Earth: Hitsugaya has a big advantage over SS.

Bankai: Hitsugaya>>>>>>>>>>Zaraki.

All in all it's quite easy to say who's victor in SS, but in Earth it may be little more troublesome for Zaraki.

Undying

09-05-2007, 08:15 PM

Reiatsu: Zaraki(Byakuya for example): patched Reiatsu made Ganju knee, Byakuya made Ganju knee also, So patched Zaraki=Byakuya. Byakuya is more experienced so Hitsugaya has lower Reiatsu than Byakuya, So apparently Zaraki > Hitsugaya in reiatsu.
It was stated that Byakuya = Zaraki (with eyepatch) in terms of reiatsu by Ganju.

However what does experience have to do with lower or higher reiatsu? Ichigo is a nooblet yet his reiatsu was enough (pre-bankai) to be considered "captain level".
Speed: Zaraki: Can shunpo Manga chp. 109 p. 15, not necessarily as fast as some others but still can. Hitsugaya can shunpo also so basically Zaraki=Hitsugaya in speed.
Back to the Zaraki can shunpo argument? Lol, no he can't. And possibly neither can Hitsugaya.

Endurance: No question at all Zaraki>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hitsugaya.
I don't know about that one, actually. Hitsugaya endured pretty bad wounds there with Shawlong.

Experience: Zaraki>Hitsugaya, obviously. And experience=power in Bleach.
Ichigay....
Earth: Hitsugaya has a big advantage over SS.
Lulwut? Why would that be?

FullMetal Rebel

09-05-2007, 08:58 PM

Experience: Zaraki>Hitsugaya, obviously. And experience=power in Bleach.

Ichigo wants a word with you.

Endurance: No question at all Zaraki>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hitsugaya.

Shawlong makes me think otherwise. On the other hand we have Zaraki who fainted from a nub.

Basically Shawlong>Ichigo(at the time he fought Zaraki)

sweeter

09-06-2007, 12:40 AM

And yet the author then shows something completely different later... which means that Shawlong wasn't completely right.
When Hitsugaya's Bankai went to the final petal during his Shawlong fight, his bankai disappeared. The author bothered doing a close-up of the petals fading until one was left and right after that Hitsugaya fainted and lost his bankai... (Ch. 211, p. 2 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/211/2/)-3 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/211/3/)).

Again, you kind of need common sense to understand what the author is trying to convey.

Also, Shawlong stated that Hitsugaya was pathetic. Then Hitsugaya released the limit and was far stronger than Shawlong (beating him with one attack). So, because Shawlong SAID Hitsugaya was nothing, and Hitsugaya didn't deny anything, it must mean that he is indeed weaker than Shawlong.
That was not a "plot dump". It's requisite inconsequential trash talking in shonen manga. It's quite easy to differentiate the two, really.

(:

smach

09-06-2007, 02:56 AM

And yet the author then shows something completely different later... which means that Shawlong wasn't completely right.luppi attacked hitsugaya twice n left him for dead. then hitsugaya comes back after a good amount of time (during which he made preparations) and used his ice-cage attack. nowhere is it shown that the petals are a countdown to ub3r-pwnage. it IS shown, however, that they are a countdown to mootness.

Also, Shawlong stated that Hitsugaya was pathetic. Then Hitsugaya released the limit and was far stronger than Shawlong (beating him with one attack). So, because Shawlong SAID Hitsugaya was nothing, and Hitsugaya didn't deny anything, it must mean that he is indeed weaker than Shawlong.grimjow's entire crew WAS stronger than the limit-restricted shinigami.

Monolguing is all fine and dandy when it isn't proved wrong a few chapters later.which it clearly wasn't.

MilesPeroxide

09-06-2007, 04:43 AM

I don't buy that the petals are an expiry. It's too remedial. When Shaolizzle comments on the petals, he's guessing/assuming (as opposed "ah I understand"-ing) and is rather emphatically priming his uppance for some coming. It was so heavy-handed that I was actually prepared to see the last counter tick-off, Shlizzle exclaim "victory is mine!," then see Hitzu release some super-move and give one of those "joke's on you" taglines from an action movie, and lastly roll my eyes as loudly as possible. Turns out I had to wait for the super-move, which at least spared me from rolling my eyes. Now I dunno if the ice-prison thing is really his ultimate move, because I guess I'm not as impressed as I should be by "more ice than last time!"

And on 208 p.11, I'm pretty sure those are the same 4 petals I see up and to the left.

For complaints that Zaraki's limited because the extent of his abilities only range from power to more power, Hitsugaya seems to be the perfect complement: his abilities are ice, more ice, and still more ice. Not exactly well-rounded.

In regards to the notion that Zaraki must be weaker than [whoever else] because he went down at the hands of a "noob" Ichigo, I gotta wonder where the gauge or meter is that shows us Ichigo's power level was absolutely not cranked up to some mind-bogglingly and almost impossibly high level. Or that however amped he and Zangetsu were at that moment couldn't possibly have knocked out any other captain as well. He hasn't exactly followed some linear power curve, and he's had enough spirit power to make other characters piss their pants from day one.

K-Patch is fast, no doubt. I'm inclined to believe he's faster than Whitey. Then again, it's hard to be fast when your feet are stuck in a big block of ice. And one thing's for sure, whatever trump card ZK's opponent has to play, you know he'll get a chance to play it. It's not like Scarface is going to bum-rush anybody screaming "I WILL GETS U B4 U CAN POWER UP!!@!"

*shrug* Not sure yet who I like here.

Undying

09-06-2007, 06:06 AM

When Hitsugaya's Bankai went to the final petal during his Shawlong fight, his bankai disappeared. The author bothered doing a close-up of the petals fading until one was left and right after that Hitsugaya fainted and lost his bankai... (Ch. 211, p. 2 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/211/2/)-3 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/211/3/)).
When Hitsugaya's bankao got the the final petal, the fight was over and Shawlong was dead... and Hitsugaya crumbled due to wounds.

Again, you kind of need common sense to understand what the author is trying to convey.

And I think you ought to try and use your eyes more often...

That was not a "plot dump". It's requisite inconsequential trash talking in shonen manga. It's quite easy to differentiate the two, really.

(:
Especially when the author shows us it was nothing more than a red herring. Sure, why not.
luppi attacked hitsugaya twice n left him for dead. then hitsugaya comes back after a good amount of time (during which he made preparations) and used his ice-cage attack. nowhere is it shown that the petals are a countdown to ub3r-pwnage. it IS shown, however, that they are a countdown to mootness.
The petals are not shown in the a panel that shows Hitsugaya from a large distance with a huge view of the area. I guess the petals vanished and it's Hitsugaya's max-kai we're seeing now, not his bankai, yes?
grimjow's entire crew WAS stronger than the limit-restricted shinigami.
Ah but Shawlong stated he WAS STRONGER THAN HITSUGAYA... so we're proven it was wrong in a couple of chapters. It just took Kubo more time to prove Shawlong wrong about Hitsugaya's bankai, QUITE clearly.
which it clearly wasn't.
Read manga and you shall see the light. or maybe not, considering you keep seeing what you want to see.

I say this being a complete and utter anti-Hitsugay fan. thank you.

smach

09-06-2007, 06:34 AM

The petals are not shown in the a panel that shows Hitsugaya from a large distance with a huge view of the area. I guess the petals vanished and it's Hitsugaya's max-kai we're seeing now, not his bankai, yes?the petals apply to the usual bankai release, while the other one doesn't need them, coz it uses the power of all three, combined.

Ah but Shawlong stated he WAS STRONGER THAN HITSUGAYA... so we're proven it was wrong in a couple of chapters. It just took Kubo more time to prove Shawlong wrong about Hitsugaya's bankai, QUITE clearly.no matter how you look at it, shawlong was right both times. about the strength, he was still stronger than hitsugaya, till when they got their limits lifted. he was also right about the petals, which disappeared one-by-one with every move that hitsugaya took.

Read manga and you shall see the light. or maybe not, considering you keep seeing what you want to see.yea, i'll stick to seeing what i want to...unless you can explain to me how the all petals suddenly disappeared to give room to the ice prison.

I say this being a complete and utter anti-Hitsugay fan. thank you.well...umm...good for you? congrats? :rolleye09

Crusader.

09-06-2007, 07:03 AM

Well, basically i think Hitsugaya would win since this is what this topic is what about not the petals lol. He has a shikai which is long ranged which Zaraki is at a disadvantage, even if Zaraki can break apart the ice, Hitsugaya still has Bankai which can make him fly, i dont think Zaraki can touch him then >.>

Basically, even though Zaraki may have more reiatsu it doesnt really matter if Hitsugaya just flys around attacking until he uses millenium prison.

smach

09-06-2007, 07:06 AM

i think all the strong shinigami (like captains, strong VCs, etc) in bleach can fly...but that's just me

Seff vi Britannia

09-06-2007, 07:29 AM

Undies, Shawlong did state he was stonrger than Hitsugaya. Shawlong didn't know that Hitsugaya was at 20%.

After Hitsugaya released, it was quite clear who was the stronger.

Shawlong was stronger than a limited Hitsugaya.

@Smacharia, yeah, i think they can. It's the compression of spirit particles that lets them do so (or something like that.)

of course, some, such as Hitsugaya, can fly through other means.

Undying

09-06-2007, 07:52 AM

Undies, Shawlong did state he was stonrger than Hitsugaya. Shawlong didn't know that Hitsugaya was at 20%.
He also "stated" that Hitsugaya's bankai dissolves when the petals vanish... and then 20 chapters later they vanished and Hitsugaya's bankai was still there.
the petals apply to the usual bankai release, while the other one doesn't need them, coz it uses the power of all three, combined.
Lol wut? Hitsugaya's petals vanished. Hitsugaya was and his bankai was still there.
no matter how you look at it, shawlong was right both times. about the strength, he was still stronger than hitsugaya, till when they got their limits lifted. he was also right about the petals, which disappeared one-by-one with every move that hitsugaya took.
ROFL Shawlong was right about the petals being a countdown to extinction because they dissipated? You even try to make sense when you write posts, or are you arguing with me for the sake of argument?

Hitsugaya's petals disappeared in chapter 235 p1. They aren't there. They're gone. They dissipated. I ate them.

Hitsugaya still had his bankai.
yea, i'll stick to seeing what i want to...unless you can explain to me how the all petals suddenly disappeared to give room to the ice prison.
"Suddenly" disappeared? They took quite a while to vanish, then the ice-prison appeared and the bankai was still there.

Seff vi Britannia

09-06-2007, 07:58 AM

He also "stated" that Hitsugaya's bankai dissolves when the petals vanish... and then 20 chapters later they vanished and Hitsugaya's bankai was still there.

Er, according to you. I care less for arguing this point, but i think it was simply the drawing. You can't see Ichigo's eye pupils in a lot of frames, does that mean he dosen't have them? >__>

Meh, w/e.

Undying

09-06-2007, 08:08 AM

Er, according to you. I care less for arguing this point, but i think it was simply the drawing. You can't see Ichigo's eye pupils in a lot of frames, does that mean he dosen't have them? >__>
...Look at the scan again.

smach

09-06-2007, 08:09 AM

Lol wut? Hitsugaya's petals vanished. Hitsugaya was and his bankai was still there.yea, coz he went for another stage of his bankai release, which is different from the one that has a countdown to his doom.

ROFL Shawlong was right about the petals being a countdown to extinction because they dissipated? You even try to make sense when you write posts, or are you arguing with me for the sake of argument?just stating exactly what was shown. :rolleye09

Hitsugaya's petals disappeared in chapter 235 p1. They aren't there. They're gone. They dissipated. I ate them....http://www.bleachflame.com/forums/images/smilies/whatever.gif...

"Suddenly" disappeared? They took quite a while to vanish, then the ice-prison appeared and the bankai was still there.coz it's a different stage of his bankai release.

Seff vi Britannia

09-06-2007, 08:10 AM

...Look at the scan again.

HOLY SH*T ICHIGO HAS NO EYES.

:Haha

Undying

09-06-2007, 08:19 AM

yea, coz he went for another stage of his bankai release, which is different from the one that has a countdown to his doom.
Oho, so now Hitsugaya has max-bankai... Hello there, Hitsugaya Toushiro-san. Can I smack you in the face with my schtick because I think you're gay...?

No seriously smach. I must've missed the part where Hitsugaya said he was using his new and improved Senkei Hyourinmaru.

just stating exactly what was shown. :rolleye09

What was shown was the petals disappearing.
...http://www.bleachflame.com/forums/images/smilies/whatever.gif...

Careful, if I splurt I will be aiming at your eyes ;).
coz it's a different stage of his bankai release.
I must've missed that. Where was it stated?
HOLY SH*T ICHIGO HAS NO EYES.
If that's the best you can do, you ARE the idiot I always thought you were.

BTW, that comic - wonderful idea. But a Jew won't be having the Nazi symbol on their HQ's door. Just for future references wheny ou draw the 6th division's castle ;).

smach

09-06-2007, 08:27 AM

Oho, so now Hitsugaya has max-bankai... Hello there, Hitsugaya Toushiro-san. Can I smack you in the face with my schtick because I think you're gay...?

No seriously smach. I must've missed the part where Hitsugaya said he was using his new and improved Senkei Hyourinmaru.

I must've missed that. Where was it stated?nowhere, just a flaw on kubo's part for not stating every single thing that takes place, n for assuming that we'd be smart enuff to figure out what took place by referring to past experiences/scenes that we witnessed.

What was shown was the petals disappearing.what was shown was NO PETALS WHATSOEVER.

Careful, if I splurt I will be aiming at your eyes ;).wow lol srry bro but i'm not into that shit...but it's a free country here so you could prolly find urself a partner.

Kyouka Suigetsu

09-06-2007, 08:28 AM

Hitsugaya's bankai has no further form. Speculation about future abilities doesn't count for shit in a versus match. Either provide evidence of what your claiming or GTFO.

smach

09-06-2007, 08:30 AM

lol how about you stfu...unless you're trying to tell me that the ice prison is the same damn thing that hitsugaya was using against shawlong...which i would like to see proof of.

Undying

09-06-2007, 08:34 AM

nowhere, just a flaw on kubo's part for not stating every single thing that takes place, n for assuming that we'd be smart enuff to figure out what took place by referring to past experiences/scenes that we witnessed.
LMAO. You're simply hilarious to the point of being a retard :). No offense intended.

Anyway, Hitsugaya was using his own, good old bankai. This "he was using a new form" bullshit is just that, bullshit.
what was shown was NO PETALS WHATSOEVER.
When Shawlong was fighting Hitsugaya we saw the petals crumbling... when Hitsugaya fell he still had one petal left.
wow lol srry bro but i'm not into that shit...but it's a free country here so you could prolly find urself a partner
Well you started it.
lol how about you stfu...unless you're trying to tell me that the ice prison is the same damn thing that hitsugaya was using against shawlong...which i would like to see proof of.
Hitsugaya still had petals against Shawlong...

Kyouka Suigetsu

09-06-2007, 08:36 AM

Ice prison is a technique, not a new form of Banaki. It's also useless seeing how Hitsugaya was out of the picture a couple chapters before he could use it. Zaraki is going to beat him worse than a pedo recently released from prison before then.

smach

09-06-2007, 09:08 AM

LMAO. You're simply hilarious to the point of being a retard :). No offense intended.

Anyway, Hitsugaya was using his own, good old bankai. This "he was using a new form" bullshit is just that, bullshit.

When Shawlong was fighting Hitsugaya we saw the petals crumbling... when Hitsugaya fell he still had one petal left.

Well you started it.

Hitsugaya still had petals against Shawlong...why the use of a different name if it's the same exact thing?http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/232/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch232-06.jpghttp://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/234/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch234-18.jpghttp://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/210/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch210LQ-18&19.jpg

Ice prison is a technique, not a new form of Banaki.it's a different form/stage/technique of hitsugaya's bankai. it's not a new bankai, just a different technique...like how byakuya has his 3 forms.

Seff vi Britannia

09-06-2007, 09:14 AM

BTW, that comic - wonderful idea. But a Jew won't be having the Nazi symbol on their HQ's door. Just for future references wheny ou draw the 6th division's castle ;).

We'll bear that in mind, thanks for the C&C

Kyouka Suigetsu

09-06-2007, 09:17 AM

smach

09-06-2007, 09:20 AM

don't bother with it...it's between me n Undy.

Kyouka Suigetsu

09-06-2007, 09:24 AM

NO U! I have a reputation of inserting myself into other people's situations. It will be upheld.

smach

09-06-2007, 09:27 AM

so what do u have to say about it?

Undying

09-06-2007, 09:46 AM

why the use of a different name if it's the same exact thing?http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/232/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch232-06.jpghttp://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/234/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch234-18.jpghttp://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/210/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch210LQ-18&19.jpg

it's a different form/stage/technique of hitsugaya's bankai. it's not a new bankai, just a different technique...like how byakuya has his 3 forms.

LMFAO! You're trying to sell a technique for a new release? Are you listening to yourself? Are you reading what you're writing?

Hitsugaya used a technique called "Ryusenka" against Shawlong to finish him off. It was basically stab-and-freeze.

Hitsugaya used a technique called Sennen Hyourou against Luppi. He did not further release his zanpakto. He did not alter the form or the way the sword is used. He just used a technique.

But according to you, Getsuga Tenshou is Ichigo's next bankai level :whatevah:

Seff vi Britannia

09-06-2007, 09:53 AM

But according to you, Kuroi* Getsuga Tenshou is Ichigo's next bankai level :whatevah:

:)

sweeter

09-06-2007, 10:33 AM

And I think you ought to try and use your eyes more often...
And I think you ought to use your common sense and stop clinging to your practically baseless theories just to save face. :)

Decado has already supported my argument so I'm kind of assured that what I'm saying is more reasonable anyway. It doesn't really matter now if you say otherwise. Decado is smart, sensible, and even-tempered, while you're...

...well, I'd rather not say.

(:

Kyouka Suigetsu

09-06-2007, 11:15 AM

Dexter

09-06-2007, 11:29 AM

Decado stated that Goku could destroy galaxies (you know, the cosmic structures that contain billions of stars), when his greatest feat is planet busting even at the end of the show. His word is hardly the most reliable with such claims.
Dude. What's with the Ad Hominen?

If you want to disclaim the theory focus on the theories, not the ppl. AH is the most amateurish form of argument possible. It's childish and laughable.

And I already explained why the vast majority of ppl think that. Freiza destroyed a planet with his ****ing finger. His finger. Without powering up.

That logically entails Goku, years and years later surpassing so many levels, will be able to do much more.
And yes, I agree that logic flies out the window with DBZ. That's why I did not reply any further in that thread, b/c I agreed with what you said to actually back the claim.
Yet there was nothing to counter what I said about Freiza.
The flaw is with the design of DBZ.

DO YOU KNOW WHY? Because it was supposed to END AFTER THE FREIZA ARC. :)

(caps lock incase you miss it)
That's why all the power levels were ****ed up and had to be readjusted.

THEREFORE - Goku COULD blow up galaxies, but they had to readjust it so that they could have future battles, like the Android saga, the Cell saga, the Buu saga, and DBGT

Did you know this? Or were you laughing at your own ignorance when you laughed at that claim of mine?

My argument was valid in that regard. Don't use it to disprove my Bleach arguing abilities. That's extremely low of you.

I would never try to lower YOUR arguing abilities, or anyone elses, in the eyes of everyone else, no matter how ignorant they were

Kyouka Suigetsu

09-06-2007, 11:40 AM

Dude. What's with the Ad Hominen?
If you want to disclaim the theory focus on the theories, not the ppl. That's the most amateurish form of argument possible. It's childish and laughable.
And I already explained why the vast majority of ppl think that. Freiza destroyed a planet with his ****ing finger. His finger. Without powering up.
That logically entails Goku, years and years later surpassing so many levels, will be able to do much more.
And yes, I agree that logic flies out the window with DBZ. That's why I did not reply any further in that thread, b/c I agreed with what you said to actually back the claim.
Yet there was nothing to counter what I said about Freiza.
The flaw is with the design of DBZ.
DO YOU KNOW WHY? Because it was supposed to END AFTER THE FREIZA ARC. :)
(caps lock incase you miss it)
That's why all the power levels were ****ed up and had to be readjusted.
THEREFORE - Goku COULD blow up galaxies, but they had to readjust it so that they could have future battles, like the Android saga, the Cell saga, the Buu saga, and DBGT
My argument was valid in that regard. Don't use it to disprove my Bleach arguing abilities. That's extremely low of you.

It was used to discredit sweeterthanchocolate's statement, which basically said that your approval = high certainty of accuracy; my comment wasn't meant to be disparaging. I was just pointing out that you're not always correct just like the rest of us. My target was the circular logic in that post, not you.

sweeter

09-06-2007, 11:46 AM

It was used to discredit sweeterthanchocolate's statement, which basically said that your approval = high certainty of accuracy;
I know that Decado's word isn't truth from heaven... but it's definitely more valid than someone who fails to understand how monologuing works. It was the best contrast I could find.

Hitsugaya's Bankai has a time limit. The petals are a countdown until his Bankai disappears.

(:

Undying

09-06-2007, 01:14 PM

You're talking about common sense when you:

A. Haven't even read Decado's post (he basically agreed with everyone)

Dec calls it diplomacy and open-mindedness :toocool:
<_<

B. Ignoring a rather clear picture that shows that what you're saying is pure bullshit.

*sigh*
Dec tells Undying not to begin flame wars.

KholdStare

09-06-2007, 01:39 PM

I don't know about anybody else but I firmly believe that Hitsugaya's petals act as a timer. Even though the words may not have came out of Hitsugaya's mouth, they were mentioned by the author for a reason. When Shawlong stated that Hitsugaya bankai was primitive and incomplete (and that the petals are like a countdown) I don't think the author was trying to make his readers think:

"Well, I'm not making Hitsugaya say this so they should know this can't be 100% true."

In manga several times people comment on the abilities of others, it is just the author's way of describing abilities without always the person with the abilities narrating. A perfect example of this is when Grimmjow says to Ichigo that his bankai does nothing other than increase his speed. Byakuya also commented on this and explained how Ichigo could compress his reiatsu and increase his speed. It wouldn't make much sense for Ichigo to yell out and say "My bankai does nothing other than increase my speed"

Undying: Although you have a well thought out theory, that is all it is: a theory. I believe if Kubo wanted us to know more about Hitsugaya's bankai he would have said it during Shawlong's "speech".

smach

09-06-2007, 02:07 PM

LMFAO! You're trying to sell a technique for a new release? Are you listening to yourself? Are you reading what you're writing?i meant to say the other stuff...attack/technique/stage. my bad.

Hitsugaya used a technique called "Ryusenka" against Shawlong to finish him off. It was basically stab-and-freeze.which is also what he used before the limit release.

Hitsugaya used a technique called Sennen Hyourou against Luppi. He did not further release his zanpakto. He did not alter the form or the way the sword is used. He just used a technique.stab+freeze is the only technique (as far as we've seen) that's related to the petals. the ice prison requires alot of hitsugaya's strength to be able to work. if the petals are related to it at all, then they limit its use the same way they limit ryusenka. and seeing how the attack is far more large-scale than stab+freeze, it's only to be expected that if the petals are at all part of his new technique, hitsugaya's bankai would also disappear after using the ice prison.

why don't i support the countdown-to-pwnage idea? coz it's only been shown to apply to filler hanatarou. it doesn't make sense for hitsugaya coz it would mean that all he has to do is use his energy repeatedly to the point where he can't attack anymore. that means he would be weaker (n most likely worn out) n totally defenseless by the time the ice prison comes into his grasp.

i also find going from stab+freeze to ice prison to be altering the form/way his sword is used, for the same reasons i don't think kageyoshi, senkei, n hakuteiken, are the same form/way byakuya uses his sword.

But according to you, Getsuga Tenshou is Ichigo's next bankai level :whatevah:r u talkin about the vizard verson or the usual one?
either way:
- getsuga is part of ichigo's bankai...he's got no 2nd or 3rd stage/technique.
- normal vs vizard, the mask grants him more reiatsu. that doesn't make it a different attack.

Undying

09-06-2007, 02:51 PM

Undying: Although you have a well thought out theory, that is all it is: a theory. I believe if Kubo wanted us to know more about Hitsugaya's bankai he would have said it during Shawlong's "speech".
It's not a theory, it's simply stating what's shown.
which is also what he used before the limit release.
Sure... he even said it didn't he, in the unreleased manga chapter? :whatevah:
stab+freeze is the only technique (as far as we've seen) that's related to the petals. the ice prison requires alot of hitsugaya's strength to be able to work. if the petals are related to it at all, then they limit its use the same way they limit ryusenka. and seeing how the attack is far more large-scale than stab+freeze, it's only to be expected that if the petals are at all part of his new technique, hitsugaya's bankai would also disappear after using the ice prison.
ROFL. The petals vanished. Hitsugaya was only able to use his pwnage technique after they vanished. Hitsugaya went as far as saying that Luppi gave him ample time to prepare. Read again and again until you get it: the petals weren't there when Hitsugaya used his pwnage technique (not much of a pwnage, but for simplicity's sake...). There was nothing that could hide them, and we didn't see Hitsugaya from an angle. I'll repeat it again: Shawlong was wrong.
why don't i support the countdown-to-pwnage idea? coz it's only been shown to apply to filler hanatarou. it doesn't make sense for hitsugaya coz it would mean that all he has to do is use his energy repeatedly to the point where he can't attack anymore. that means he would be weaker (n most likely worn out) n totally defenseless by the time the ice prison comes into his grasp.
First, that was exactly what happened, if you didn't notice. Normally Hitsugaya cannot use Ice-Prison effectively due to the fact it requires so much time, which he normally doesn't have.

Second, all Hitsugaya has to do is stall long enough until the amount of time needed passes (which is surprisingly as long as it takes the petals do disappear, I wonder why... MAYBE because they are the timer for it?). He just has to avoid attacks long enough to load it.
i also find going from stab+freeze to ice prison to be altering the form/way his sword is used, for the same reasons i don't think kageyoshi, senkei, n hakuteiken, are the same form/way byakuya uses his sword.
Lolwut. Senkei and Hakutenken are all the same: variations of using Byakuya's bankai ability: petals that can form into swords.

Also you are forgetting that Hitsugaya had a month of training between Shawlong and Luppi. During that time, he could most likely learn how to properly use the Ice-Prison technique, which he MAY not have had before.
r u talkin about the vizard verson or the usual one?
either way:
- getsuga is part of ichigo's bankai...he's got no 2nd or 3rd stage/technique.
- normal vs vizard, the mask grants him more reiatsu. that doesn't make it a different attack.
A different name is a different bankai... like YOU said. Ice-Prison and Kuroi getsuga Tenshou are the same thing: a variation of bankai, according to you. It's techniques that apply the ability of each bankai. Byakuya's is the same.

silverwolf801

09-06-2007, 02:55 PM

Undying

09-06-2007, 04:44 PM

Man my perception of hitsugaya is bad. i used to be a fanboy for him but now I think he is weak as crap. I am sure that even with his so called ice element he would lose becase some on people this is Zaraki Kenpachi the man always looking for a challenge he would pwn ice boy.
Hitsugaya IS weak as crap. It's just that he hold the advantage in this particular fight. Put him up against almost anyone else of an adequate power level, and he will lose.

MilesPeroxide

09-06-2007, 07:59 PM

Shaolang isn't explaining to us what the petals are for, he's hypothesizing.

<observation>"They're disappearing, aren't they?"</observation>
<hypothesis>"Perhaps..."</hypothesis>

I'm not sure you'll see that kind of speculative language in the explanatory narratives. The author's asking us "hey, did you notice the petals?" then suggesting "maybe this is what they're for" so he can later surprise those who bit on the feint. If you ask me.

One thing's for certain about K-Patch is that he's not going to attempt a quick strategic kill. We know this. Toshi doesn't suck so badly that he'd die to an opponent who's going to encourage him to use his best and most powerful techniques.

Toshi gets the better of K-Patch for awhile thanks to lots of ice. Eventually K-Patch becomes K (forced to remove his eyepatch) to deal with all the ice (if spirit power can slice buildings and blow huge holes in the ground, it can bust up ice). Toshi uses his ice prison thing, K busts out with spirit power, Toshi's shocked, they clash, Zaraki for teh win.

Afterwards Toshi's earned K-Patch's utmost respect and the latter edifies the former somehow, like how hesitation cost him or something. Toshi soaks it up like a sponge and becomes a mortal lock to win the rematch and satisfy cliches:

-Learn from mistakes & experience
-Pupil outshines Master
-Changing of the guard
-"The extremity of your personality was your ultimate downfall."
-Repentant acceptance of own humanity now that it's too late
-Posthumous acknowledgement as heroic figure despite flaws

As suggested Zaraki dies after the rematch to preserve his character without us having to endure any more personal growth.

FullMetal Rebel

09-06-2007, 11:30 PM

This whole debate is pointless. Shawlong describing Hitsugaya's petals, was just a way for the author to explain.
Anyway this thread deserves a train wreck.
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/7606/6290trainwreckotis1893sl3.gif

KholdStare

09-07-2007, 12:02 AM

MilesPeroxide

09-07-2007, 02:21 AM

Without any of the characters openly acknowledging it you already know they're counting down to something. 50/50 -- either he's done, or he's got an ace in the hole. Just by showing the petals disappear followed by him fretting, and thinking to himself "I've got to finish this quick" already does the job of suggesting that it's a countdown to bad news for Hitsugaya. At that point it's plot-device-executed, message received, suspension of disbelief in tact.

But to then stab the mortally wounded horse with such an overtly speculative presumption by the overconfident bad-guy, well... I swear I didn't just fart, that smell is herring. Disbelief enabled.

I'll stop twisting arms. Feel free to have your pants rocked like a hurricane when you finally notice Hitsugaya floating around in his bankai with no petals overhead. Or just settle for a "well I'll be." All reactions are available and in stock.

So, can I do that? K-Patch wins round one but Toshi kills Zaraki dead in round 2?

smach

09-07-2007, 03:37 AM

But to then stab the mortally wounded horse with such an overtly speculative presumption by the overconfident bad-guy, well... I swear I didn't just fart, that smell is herring. Disbelief enabled.how is shawlong overconfident, n how is what he said an overtly speculative presumption?

It's not a theory, it's simply stating what's shown.what was shown does not include those petals that you claim to be a countdown to ice-prison, amirite?

Sure... he even said it didn't he, in the unreleased manga chapter? :whatevah:aizen vs hitsugaya (ep60)
hitsugaya vs shawlong (ep120-121)

ROFL. The petals vanished. Hitsugaya was only able to use his pwnage technique after they vanished. Hitsugaya went as far as saying that Luppi gave him ample time to prepare. Read again and again until you get it: the petals weren't there when Hitsugaya used his pwnage technique (not much of a pwnage, but for simplicity's sake...). There was nothing that could hide them, and we didn't see Hitsugaya from an angle. I'll repeat it again: Shawlong was wrong.

First, that was exactly what happened, if you didn't notice. Normally Hitsugaya cannot use Ice-Prison effectively due to the fact it requires so much time, which he normally doesn't have.

Second, all Hitsugaya has to do is stall long enough until the amount of time needed passes (which is surprisingly as long as it takes the petals do disappear, I wonder why... MAYBE because they are the timer for it?). He just has to avoid attacks long enough to load it.it is shown that hitsugaya's petals disappear with every move he makes. shawlong also says what he's observed about hitsugaya's bankai, to which hitsugaya doesn't disagree. shawlong not knowing about the limit release does not falsify his info, which we also witnessed for ourselves.

during luppi's invasion, we don't see hitsugaya for more than one chapter, n then he comes back with no petals n uses a different attack. i can't find anything that proves hitsugaya prepared by sitting around till all his petals disappeared...let me know when u find the chapter or episode that shows him using his bankai pointlessly to the point where the petals disappear n unlock the new release.

Lolwut. Senkei and Hakutenken are all the same: variations of using Byakuya's bankai ability: petals that can form into swords.they're all part of his bankai, but not the same technique. many swords floating in the air is not the same as one sword that's filled with alot of power. they are not the same. same bankai? yea. same form/sowrd/technique? nope.

Also you are forgetting that Hitsugaya had a month of training between Shawlong and Luppi. During that time, he could most likely learn how to properly use the Ice-Prison technique, which he MAY not have had before.yea, he may or he may not have had it before...

A different name is a different bankai... like YOU said. Ice-Prison and Kuroi getsuga Tenshou are the same thing: a variation of bankai, according to you. It's techniques that apply the ability of each bankai. Byakuya's is the same.wow...i wonder why i'm suddenly getting flashbacks of the plotkai crap that suddenly came from nowhere...

Nowitzki

09-07-2007, 03:41 AM

I've formulated this opinion based on the argument between Smacharia and Undying.

The petals disappear as Hitsugaya attacks in Bankai, correct? His Bankai will cease to function properly once the petals disappear, so it is a "timer" of sorts. Using this concept, maybe Hitsugaya uses the energy that the Bankai is using to sustain it's duration, thus draining the petals, and then uses all of that to perform Thousand Years Ice Prison. Once Hitsugaya uses that attack, his Bankai will have no time left, and will shortly run out.

Thoughts?

smach

09-07-2007, 03:46 AM

yea, that's how i see it.

but trust me, Undy is definitely gonna find a way to keep dragging this like the shunpo stuff in the other thread...or say he's just not bothering with it anymore coz he already discussed it with someone else.

FullMetal Rebel

09-07-2007, 04:25 AM

This should be another whole thread. This is obviously no longer King Overrated v.s. Screentime Hogger.

As usual when Smach and Undy get into a long debate, the gloves come off..........................

MilesPeroxide

09-07-2007, 06:00 AM

Classic bait and switch, yo. Dunno what else to tell ya.

[EDIT: Erased a huge and embarrassing waste of bandwidth]

Undying

09-07-2007, 08:07 AM

Miles, don't triple post please.

Anyway, Miles pretty much summed up everything I had in mind concerning the "Hitsugaya's petals are a giant clock counter thingie", so I'll leave the cake to him and go play ball or something.

FullMetal Rebel

09-07-2007, 09:17 PM

He'll go on a killing rampage and kill all the ****ing captains at the same time. hail to the Captain of the 11th squad.

Nah, Byakuya would drop him before he could get started.

That was directed to all the hitsugya fanatics out there.

Just for the record,I hate Hitsugaya.

Starlight

09-07-2007, 09:23 PM

I say Kenpachi wins. Hits may have range, but Kenny has endurance and strength on his side. If Hits wants to use his uber charge up move, he can do it while being sliced in half.

dawin45

09-07-2007, 09:29 PM

<<<I really got to approve this post,it was made using "small words" so it could be explained the uber power that kenpachi, I dought that hitsugaya fans would give up...nice one Starlight...
+kenpachi liked fighting a lot, he can't wait to get the taste of a strong oponnent
+kenpachi could not even use the eye path on this one if hitsugaya is not near water,in case hitsugaya launches the ice prison attack...

diamondedge

09-08-2007, 09:08 AM

Lets not turn this into a fanboy and anti-fanboy thread hm? :)

@Capt Kenpachi: Those are strong words you use for your favorite character... Especially because you have nothing to support them with.

Hm, lemme post my scenario:

@Starlight: I give him credits for endurance, but he is slow. Once he gets caught in Hitsugaya's ice, there is No escaping, even for hi. Hitsu may be noob, but his Hyourinmaru is quite a tool. I highly doubt his reiatsu is strong enough to deflect his shikai or bankai. Even though his enormous spirit force is practically his only trait along with endurance, It's still nowhere near the top.

And he can't fight it with his sword. That might work against Tousen, because tousen's bankai didn't actually harm him. It deprived him of his senses but those were replaced by his animal instincts, so basically, it did nothing and Zaraki's "skills" were a direct counter to Tousen's abilities. However, in Hitsugaya's case, that does not help one bit.

Hitsu has range and quite impressive AoE. His shikai would probably be enough to finish the job, and in bankai, he as additional techniques available.

In short, I do agree Zaraki excels in things you mention, but what I am trying to say is that those abilities are COMPLETELY useless against fighter like Hitsugaya.
No matter how good is he at swordsmanship, he can't charge at Hyourinmaru with his old rusty sword. He isn't fast. He doesn't know kidou either. Has no bankai. His spirit force is high but my all means not high enough to keep tons of ice away from him.

Since Hitsugaya's zanpktou would freeze him and therefore prevent from any movement, making him an easy target, endurance doesn't help either. He would become a punching bag, like Renji did when Byakuya nailed him with kidou.

Due to his "come and hit me as strong as you can" attitude that works at his disadvantage this time, I can assume he would first use something like this to test
his opponent. Character flaws are meant to be exploited, like someone said nicely in Gin vs. Byakuya topic.

We've seen Zaraki only in close combat so far, and for a good reason too. Because he is dead when it comes to range. I think that if he gets more action in the future
his opponent would be someone like Yami. If he threw him to the wolves against range, he would have to change entire Zaraki characteristics to make him win that fight. Which would suck. Hitsu works as a good counter to Zaraki. His abilitie sare totally useless against him, just like Tousen's were against Zaraki, even if it was bankai that got him.

Dexter

09-08-2007, 09:09 AM

Psh. I don't like Hitsugaya much either. But I can still see who wins here.
After all the arguments, just flaming the users who support valid arguments is childish.

@Capt Kenpachi: spam posts deleted and 1st and last verbal warning for useless spammage & insinuating flamming

@dawin: spam post deleted

silverwolf801

09-08-2007, 09:34 AM

Ok OK whatever happened to the idea that hitsugaya was too young to use the full potenial of his bankai which is why he petals were always breaking. O and I not going for frost boy.

Sendivoge

09-08-2007, 09:57 AM

Thinking about Kenpachi and Toushiro, though i'd much prefer Zaraki to win, my first impression was that Hitsugaya's skills do outmatch Zaraki's. But then again, with the exception of the Ichigo vs Zaraki fight, i would have also bet against Zaraki in pretty much all his other battles. The fact that any person he migth fight has abilities seems to prove an instant win for some people. I'd never have thought he could gain an advantage with Tousen like that.

Even in the fight with Ichinose, from the Bount filler arc, though i thought Kenpachi would win, a different conclusion might have been reached had we weighed up their abilities etc.

With all the talk about Zaraki only being able to fight a people with certain fighting styles, i'm even more interested in seeing what occurred in the fight with the former 11th division captain. Zaraki supposedly revolutionized the idea of fighting in the 11th division, especially being the first captain without having reached bankai.

jonat3

09-08-2007, 10:58 AM

I have to vote Kenpachi. Hitsugaya won't ever be able to use his ice prison attack. Just like HM Ishida, his attack is an attack that can only be used when an ally serves as a distraction.

If Hitsugaya couldn't use it against Shawlong, he won't be able to pull it off against Zaraki. A fight between Zaraki and bankai Hitsugaya will be similar like the fight between bankai Hitsugaya WITH limit and sealed Shawlong. That's how large the reiatsu difference is.

The reason Zaraki was able to defeat Tousen, the reason he was able to defeat the former 11th captain and the reason he is a captain now, is because Zaraki has bankai level reiatsu. He doesn't need bankai for an average captain like Hitsugaya. Hitsugaya's ice won't be able to freeze Zaraki, just like with Shawlong, because Zaraki's reiatsu is at the level of bankai.

And considering that only Hitsugaya's ice prison seems to have a real longrange effect, he will be forced to fight close range. Don't let Hitsugaya's water/ice abilities blind you to the facts. The facts are that in his fight with Shawlong he barely displayed any longrange abilities. He fought closeup with Shawlong and that's how he will fight with Zaraki as well if he can't use his ice prison move.

FullMetal Rebel

09-08-2007, 11:04 AM

And considering that only Hitsugaya's ice prison seems to have a real longrange effect, he will be forced to fight close range. Don't let Hitsugaya's water/ice abilities blind you to the facts. The facts are that in his fight with Shawlong he barely displayed any longrange abilities. He fought closeup with Shawlong and that's how he will fight with Zaraki as well if he can't use his ice prison move.

That was only because of Shawlong being faster than Hitsugaya at the time. Zaraki is much slower than Hitsugaya, so Hitsu can fight at long range as much as he pleases.

Crusader.

09-08-2007, 11:18 AM

Whoever said that Hitsu cant shunpo is wrong, cos during the fight of matsumoto and that fat guy, he uses echoing movement and matsumoto uses shunpo. Now considering that matsumoto is a vc, i think that hitsu would be able to use shunpo lol.

jonat3

09-08-2007, 11:27 AM

That was only because of Shawlong being faster than Hitsugaya at the time. Zaraki is much slower than Hitsugaya, so Hitsu can fight at long range as much as he pleases.

The reason Shawlong was faster, was because his reiatsu was on a different level. The same is true with Zaraki. His reiatsu makes his speed on a different level as well (atleast compared to Hitsugaya). The only reason Zaraki seems slow in his fight with Ichigo, is cause Ichigo had similar reiatsu as him.

Furthermore, longrange abilities are more useful against faster opponents IMO.

Whoever said that Hitsu cant shunpo is wrong, cos during the fight of matsumoto and that fat guy, he uses echoing movement and matsumoto uses shunpo. Now considering that matsumoto is a vc, i think that hitsu would be able to use shunpo lol.

Not all captains can do kidou. For that reason, i won't assume that all captains can do shunpo. That a VC can do shunpo doesn't mean that a captain will be capable of it as well.

Dexter

09-08-2007, 11:39 AM

The reason Shawlong was faster, was because his reiatsu was on a different level. The same is true with Zaraki. His reiatsu makes his speed on a different level as well (atleast compared to Hitsugaya). The only reason Zaraki seems slow in his fight with Ichigo, is cause Ichigo had similar reiatsu as him.
I see your point, but everyone seems to be forgetting Hitsugaya's attack against Aizen. Don't disregard that strike because... well.. it was Aizen. Hitsu's flight was fast enough to cover that distance, and caused ice to split in all directions.
I don't think Zaraki could take a strike like that the way Aizen did, b/c it could have been Aizen's shikai - which most agree with.

Furthermore, longrange abilities are more useful against faster opponents IMO.
That doesn't really make sense to me. Your "long-range ability" will take time to get there - relative to if it was a short distance strike - so it would be more effective against slow opponents.
How did Ichigo dodge Byakuya's leaves? Cos he was fast. If he was slow, the leaves would have ripped him (well not him - cos he still had the speed to knock away the blade-leaves)

jonat3

09-08-2007, 11:45 AM

I see your point, but everyone seems to be forgetting Hitsugaya's attack against Aizen. Don't disregard that strike because... well.. it was Aizen. Hitsu's flight was fast enough to cover that distance, and caused ice to split in all directions.
I don't think Zaraki could take a strike like that the way Aizen did, b/c it could have been Aizen's shikai - which most agree with.

That's only the anime. The ice never split in the manga. Aizen never used an illusion in the manga. Aizen used only speed when he defeated Hitsugaya.

However, i agree that a strike from Hitsugaya's bankai would be pretty damaging to Zaraki. But i don't believe Hitsugaya's closerange skills extend that far.

That doesn't really make sense to me. Your "long-range ability" will take time to get there - relative to if it was a short distance strike - so it would be more effective against slow opponents.
How did Ichigo dodge Byakuya's leaves? Cos he was fast. If he was slow, the leaves would have ripped him (well not him - cos he still had the speed to knock away the blade-leaves)

Most of the time, longrange skills are used when the user isn't fast himself. Just look at Renji. He's slow as hell, but he has his huge snake to compensate for his lack of speed.

Byakuya abandoned his longrange attack, cause its attackpower was ineffective.

Dexter

09-08-2007, 11:47 AM

Oh rite. My bad bout the manga. They fuse in my mind
Aizen never used an illusion in the manga. Aizen used only speed when he defeated Hitsugaya.
Shows Hits competence at least. And yeah, Zaraki would thus not be able to beat that for speed.
Just look at Renji. He's slow as hell, but he has his huge snake to compensate for his lack of speed.
Yes, but if your opponent is fast they'll easily avoid your long range abilities and reach you. Only if they're slow will your long-range ability be effective to keep them at bay

If ichigo was in bankai vs Renji shikai, renji would be screwed. Ichigo was slow in shikai

jonat3

09-08-2007, 11:51 AM

Ichigo's speed is simply incomparable. Long range AND short range tactics are ineffective against it. Only if you have comparable reiatsu can you defend against his speed.

Anyways, i'm out. Need to go to work.

FullMetal Rebel

09-08-2007, 02:08 PM

That's only the anime. The ice never split in the manga

By ice splitting as in when Hitsugaya had the whole room in ice, then yes that is in the manga. I got Volume 20 on my shelf:), but hell, I'll provide a scan.
page 7 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/171/7/)
page 8 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/171/8/)
page 9 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/171/9/)

Quite honestly if Hitsugaya used that attack on Zaraki he is a goner for sure.

Dexter

09-08-2007, 02:43 PM

Hey, so i wasn't losing it..
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/171/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch171-04.jpg
Thnx for the links.
Quite honestly if Hitsugaya used that attack on Zaraki he is a goner for sure.
QFT.

h3h3h3

09-08-2007, 06:59 PM

I think Patched-Zaraki can break from ice prison, then if there isn't any water source nearby Zaraki roflpwns Hitsugaya when he gets close.

Undying

09-08-2007, 09:44 PM

I think Patched-Zaraki can break from ice prison, then if there isn't any water source nearby Zaraki roflpwns Hitsugaya when he gets close.
A water source... umm... like.. the entire atmosphere? :o

jonat3

09-09-2007, 12:18 AM

By ice splitting as in when Hitsugaya had the whole room in ice, then yes that is in the manga. I got Volume 20 on my shelf:), but hell, I'll provide a scan.
page 7 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/171/7/)
page 8 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/171/8/)
page 9 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/171/9/)
Quite honestly if Hitsugaya used that attack on Zaraki he is a goner for sure.

That "ice splitting" as you call it, was Hitsugaya's bankai dissipating. Hardly something that can be used as an argument, since this ice splitting wasn't even an attack.

However, if memory serves me right, Shawlong did get turned into an icecube after he got a fatal blow. If Hitsugaya manages to pierce zaraki, i'm not sure how well zaraki could withstand that. But i'm certain that Hitsugaya simply doesn't have the skill, the speed or the power to accomplish this in close combat. Hitsugaya's only hope is the ice prison move, but he can only do that move when an ally serves as a distraction.

In other words, Hitsugaya is dead meat.

Undying

09-09-2007, 06:48 AM

That "ice splitting" as you call it, was Hitsugaya's bankai dissipating. Hardly something that can be used as an argument, since this ice splitting wasn't even an attack.
However, if memory serves me right, Shawlong did get turned into an icecube after he got a fatal blow. If Hitsugaya manages to pierce zaraki, i'm not sure how well zaraki could withstand that. But i'm certain that Hitsugaya simply doesn't have the skill, the speed or the power to accomplish this in close combat. Hitsugaya's only hope is the ice prison move, but he can only do that move when an ally serves as a distraction.
In other words, Hitsugaya is dead meat.
Nope. He doesn't have to pierce his opponents in order to freeze them (see Luppi - he froze him from the ground). Zaraki will stand there and say "come at me with all you've got", and Hitsugaya will freeze him even without piercing him.

jonat3

09-09-2007, 11:29 AM

Nope. He doesn't have to pierce his opponents in order to freeze them (see Luppi - he froze him from the ground). Zaraki will stand there and say "come at me with all you've got", and Hitsugaya will freeze him even without piercing him.

I know he doesn't have to pierce them, but keep in mind that his ice is only as effective if his reiatsu is on a comparable level. His bankai ice didn't work on Shawlong in the beginning. Simply because Shawlong's reiatsu was on a different level (because of the limit).

And when Hitsugaya and Zaraki choose to fight, it will be similar (no limits though). Just like how Hitsugaya's ice was ineffective on Shawlong, it will be ineffective on Zaraki, unless he manages to pierce Zaraki. Zaraki's .sealed state is already captain level, while Hitsugaya needs to initiate bankai in order to be truly captainlevel. His ice will have minimal effect

Undying

09-09-2007, 11:39 AM

I know he doesn't have to pierce them, but keep in mind that his ice is only as effective if his reiatsu is on a comparable level. His bankai ice didn't work on Shawlong in the beginning. Simply because Shawlong's reiatsu was on a different level (because of the limit).
And when Hitsugaya and Zaraki choose to fight, it will be similar (no limits though). Just like how Hitsugaya's ice was ineffective on Shawlong, it will be ineffective on Zaraki, unless he manages to pierce Zaraki. Zaraki's .sealed state is already captain level, while Hitsugaya needs to initiate bankai in order to be truly captainlevel. His ice will have minimal effect
Luppi (who should at least have enough power to be compared to Zaraki, he WAS given the post of the 6th, even though he was thrown in just to piss Grimm off), was unable to immediately shake off Hitsugaya's ice (he didn't break it apart by just moving his tentacles).

Rukia, who is years behind Hitsugaya, was able to temporarily freeze Grimmjow. Hitsugaya needs to buy himself time to initiate 1000 Years Ice Prison. All he needs is basically freeze Zaraki again and again.

Neko Bam

09-09-2007, 03:15 PM

Lets not turn this into a fanboy and anti-fanboy thread hm? :)
@Capt Kenpachi: Those are strong words you use for your favorite character... Especially because you have nothing to support them with.
Hm, lemme post my scenario:
@Starlight: I give him credits for endurance, but he is slow. Once he gets caught in Hitsugaya's ice, there is No escaping, even for hi. Hitsu may be noob, but his Hyourinmaru is quite a tool. I highly doubt his reiatsu is strong enough to deflect his shikai or bankai. Even though his enormous spirit force is practically his only trait along with endurance, It's still nowhere near the top.
And he can't fight it with his sword. That might work against Tousen, because tousen's bankai didn't actually harm him. It deprived him of his senses but those were replaced by his animal instincts, so basically, it did nothing and Zaraki's "skills" were a direct counter to Tousen's abilities. However, in Hitsugaya's case, that does not help one bit.
Hitsu has range and quite impressive AoE. His shikai would probably be enough to finish the job, and in bankai, he as additional techniques available.
In short, I do agree Zaraki excels in things you mention, but what I am trying to say is that those abilities are COMPLETELY useless against fighter like Hitsugaya.
No matter how good is he at swordsmanship, he can't charge at Hyourinmaru with his old rusty sword. He isn't fast. He doesn't know kidou either. Has no bankai. His spirit force is high but my all means not high enough to keep tons of ice away from him.
Since Hitsugaya's zanpktou would freeze him and therefore prevent from any movement, making him an easy target, endurance doesn't help either. He would become a punching bag, like Renji did when Byakuya nailed him with kidou.
Due to his "come and hit me as strong as you can" attitude that works at his disadvantage this time, I can assume he would first use something like this to test
his opponent. Character flaws are meant to be exploited, like someone said nicely in Gin vs. Byakuya topic.
We've seen Zaraki only in close combat so far, and for a good reason too. Because he is dead when it comes to range. I think that if he gets more action in the future
his opponent would be someone like Yami. If he threw him to the wolves against range, he would have to change entire Zaraki characteristics to make him win that fight. Which would suck. Hitsu works as a good counter to Zaraki. His abilitie sare totally useless against him, just like Tousen's were against Zaraki, even if it was bankai that got him.

Actually, this posts is mostly pro-Hitsu because Hyourinmaru is a ranged attack, but haven't we forgotten that Gin (who wasn't even going all out at the time) deflected Hyourinmaru with his sealed sword? I don't see why Kenpachi can't do the same :rolleye09
Sorry Hitsu-fans, but once Kenpachi gets close, you can scrape the prodigy off the floor with a wooden spoon.

Dexter

09-09-2007, 03:24 PM

forgotten that Gin (who wasn't even going all out at the time) deflected Hyourinmaru with his sealed sword? I don't see why Kenpachi can't do the same
-.-

Bankai > Shikai

Neko Bam

09-09-2007, 03:43 PM

-.-

Bankai > Shikai

Yeah, but this would be assuming that Kenpachi would actually go all out, and not play around like Gin did

Dexter

09-09-2007, 03:53 PM

What? I'm saying if Hits went Bankai, you can scrape the eye-patch guy off the floor with a wooden spoon.

Did you read the last few posts about Hits' bankai abilities

Undying

09-09-2007, 04:03 PM

Gin had never stopped Hyourinmaru with anything. That's anime being anti-Hitsu (for once, [and Decado, this time I mean "for once" as in "once in a lifetime"]).

In the manga, Gin DODGED Hyourinmaru, landing on the rooftop, when Hitsugaya got behind him.

Aina1

09-09-2007, 11:06 PM

hitsugaya all da way. :cool:

jonat3

09-10-2007, 02:09 AM

Luppi (who should at least have enough power to be compared to Zaraki, he WAS given the post of the 6th, even though he was thrown in just to piss Grimm off), was unable to immediately shake off Hitsugaya's ice (he didn't break it apart by just moving his tentacles).
Rukia, who is years behind Hitsugaya, was able to hat can't freeze Grimmjow. Hitsugaya needs to buy himself time to initiate 1000 Years Ice Prison. All he needs is basically freeze Zaraki again and again.

Hitsugaya's ice on Luppi was from his ultimate move. The one he needed time to charge up megaman style. It's only that ice that Luppi couldn't shake off and it's only that ice that could possibly beat Zaraki. But it's also the move that Hitsugaya can't possibly pull off against zaraki.

If Hitsugaya could charge up by simply paralyzing his opponent each and every time, don't you think he would have used that tactic on Shawlong? He can't fight and charge at the same time. He either charges up his move or he fights. He can't do both at once.

Undying

09-10-2007, 12:55 PM

Hitsugaya's ice on Luppi was from his ultimate move. The one he needed time to charge up megaman style. It's only that ice that Luppi couldn't shake off and it's only that ice that could possibly beat Zaraki. But it's also the move that Hitsugaya can't possibly pull off against zaraki.
If Hitsugaya could charge up by simply paralyzing his opponent each and every time, don't you think he would have used that tactic on Shawlong? He can't fight and charge at the same time. He either charges up his move or he fights. He can't do both at once.
First of all don't assume Hitsugaya can't charge and fight at the same time. We don't really know how his petals work, aside from the fact they are a watch that counts to something.

Second, don't assume Hitsugaya cannot pierce Zaraki. Even Ichigo could after he focused, and Hitsugaya should have more reiatsu than Ichigo at the time. Also, Hitsugaya's shikai attack a large radius of effect, so Zaraki will be hit. After he's frozen enough, it'll take a while before he can shatter the ice off.

Besides, even Aizen dodged Hitsugaya's attack. If he could just so easily brush it off, why not just stop it with his finger and slash him in two like he did with Ichigo?

h3h3h3

09-10-2007, 01:11 PM

Second, don't assume Hitsugaya cannot pierce Zaraki. Even Ichigo could after he focused, and Hitsugaya should have more reiatsu than Ichigo at the time. Also, Hitsugaya's shikai attack a large radius of effect, so Zaraki will be hit. After he's frozen enough, it'll take a while before he can shatter the ice off.

Hitsugaya didn't have near same reiatsu as Ichigo even when he was noob, although it could freeze Zaraki when he is patched. If Zaraki was smart and took off his patch right away, the doom meets Hitsugaya in a matter of seconds.

Undying

09-10-2007, 01:17 PM

Hitsugaya didn't have near same reiatsu as Ichigo even when he was noob, although it could freeze Zaraki when he is patched. If Zaraki was smart and took off his patch right away, the doom meets Hitsugaya in a matter of seconds.
First, Zaraki won't take his eyepatch off at once. He'll let Hitsugaya stab him and then doom will meet Zaraki in a matter of second.

Second, Hitsugaya was, at the time, already "captain level" (otherwise he couldn't be classified as "captain"). Ichigo had to first power-up to get to the point where he was "captain level". Therefore Hitsugaya has more reiatsu than pre-power-up Ichigo, so he can cut Zaraki.

h3h3h3

09-10-2007, 01:26 PM

First, Zaraki won't take his eyepatch off at once. He'll let Hitsugaya stab him and then doom will meet Zaraki in a matter of second.

That probably would happen, I was IFing. Theoratically if both of them were in their most powerful state and killing state, Hitsugaya will literally be DOOMED in a matter of seconds.

Second, Hitsugaya was, at the time, already "captain level" (otherwise he couldn't be classified as "captain"). Ichigo had to first power-up to get to the point where he was "captain level". Therefore Hitsugaya has more reiatsu than pre-power-up Ichigo, so he can cut Zaraki.
I don't think Hitsugaya's reiatsu is bigger than Renji's, since Renji in shikai probably matches Hitsugaya's Bankai reiatsu because Renji seems to be more Reiatsu based and Hitsugaya more of a technique based, and noob-Ichigo pwnt Renji in his shikai. But anyways yea Hitsugaya can make little wounds to Zaraki.

smach

09-10-2007, 04:08 PM

just gettin home n preparing for class...thought i'd drop by for a sec.

That probably would happen, I was IFing. Theoratically if both of them were in their most powerful state and killing state, Hitsugaya will literally be DOOMED in a matter of seconds.- grim > bankai ichigo > shikai ichigo > zaraki
- shikai rukia: temporarilly freeze grim
- grim >>> zaraki
- bankai hitsugaya > shikai ichigo > zaraki

I don't think Hitsugaya's reiatsu is bigger than Renji's, since Renji in shikai probably matches Hitsugaya's Bankai reiatsu because Renji seems to be more Reiatsu based and Hitsugaya more of a technique based, and noob-Ichigo pwnt Renji in his shikai. But anyways yea Hitsugaya can make little wounds to Zaraki.wait...where did u get that shikai renji = bankai hitsugaya? gin vs hits: go back n read/listen/watch what kira says about hitsugaya's shikai...then compare it to renji's. n then compare their bankais once again. renji firing a canon ball doesn't grant him more reiatsu than hitsugaya.

h3h3h3

09-10-2007, 07:15 PM

- grim > bankai ichigo > shikai ichigo > zaraki
- shikai rukia: temporarilly freeze grim
- grim >>> zaraki
- bankai hitsugaya > shikai ichigo > zaraki

These don't make sense in bleach
Shikai Ichigo>Zaraki>Tousen>Grimmjow>Bankai Ichigo, there's no logic in bleach.

Seff vi Britannia

09-10-2007, 07:23 PM

Especially when the main character is involved. :D

drzjthan

09-10-2007, 07:50 PM

Zaraki can fite using his head like again tousen he dodged every attack and got hit on purpose so that he can c and hear in tousen's bankai....ken is better than what u guys think i mean 4 all we know he learned his shikai's name and is gaining more power....ppl say he fast but i seen is just from dat guy who was his sanpakto was it blade?idk but hitsu is not fast either bcuz i never seen him do a flash step or anything like dat....hitsugaya is da noobest captain of all....wait till zaraki reaches bankai hes gonna pwn

MilesPeroxide

09-10-2007, 07:59 PM

Well Ichigo is the worst benchmark for comparisons, yet he's involved in most of the forum's transitive cases for who's "stronger" than whom. Ichigo has, throughout the entire saga -- not just after some particular "power-up" -- ridiculous amounts of spirit energy (captain-class from the get-go if you ask me) but little to no idea how to control it (be it suppression or utilization). Ichigo as a reference point is dubious at best. So are tactical decisions. Why did Aizen "dodge" Hitsugaya (deceive with his Shikai, no?) but just stop Ichigo straight up with a finger? Is that really supposed to be telling about Hitsugaya's prowess, or is Kubo just revealing Aizen's abilities to us? I mean, if Aizen is truly weary of Hitsugaya, but not impressed by bankai Ichigo, what does that say about Byakuya?

smach

09-11-2007, 02:32 AM

These don't make sense in bleach
Shikai Ichigo>Zaraki>Tousen>Grimmjow>Bankai Ichigo, there's no logic in bleach.i rule tousen out coz he's a main villain...blah blah blah...u know the rest...

EDIT: we already know that HM tousen > SS tousen, shikai ichigo < bankai ichigo < vizard ichigo, SS zaraki = HM zaraki, n sealed grim < released grim.

jonat3

09-11-2007, 11:04 AM

First of all don't assume Hitsugaya can't charge and fight at the same time. We don't really know how his petals work, aside from the fact they are a watch that counts to something.

The opposite can also be said. Don't just assume he can do both at once. He's never been shown to do it afterall. Don't give Hitsugaya powers he has never before demonstrated.

Second, don't assume Hitsugaya cannot pierce Zaraki. Even Ichigo could after he focused, and Hitsugaya should have more reiatsu than Ichigo at the time. Also, Hitsugaya's shikai attack a large radius of effect, so Zaraki will be hit. After he's frozen enough, it'll take a while before he can shatter the ice off.

No, i do believe Hitsugaya can pierce Zaraki, that's not the problem here. He simply CANNOT hope to beat Zaraki in a closerange battle. If there's one thing Zaraki is good at, it's a melee battle. Longrange tactics are Hitsugaya's one and only hope.

Besides, even Aizen dodged Hitsugaya's attack. If he could just so easily brush it off, why not just stop it with his finger and slash him in two like he did with Ichigo?

He could have done exactly that. That Aizen didn't , was just a matter of style. He chose to beat Hitsugaya that way. He could have easily done it 10-15 different ways. The power difference between Hitsugaya and Aizen is simply that big.

I can't even believe you brought up such a point. You of all people should know how incredibly weak Hitsugaya is. And then to compare this guy with AIZEN....

h3h3h3

09-11-2007, 07:29 PM

i rule tousen out coz he's a main villain...blah blah blah...u know the rest...

EDIT: we already know that HM tousen > SS tousen, shikai ichigo < bankai ichigo < vizard ichigo, SS zaraki = HM zaraki, n sealed grim < released grim.

Tousen hasn't got any power-up or did I miss something?

Undying

09-11-2007, 07:40 PM

The opposite can also be said. Don't just assume he can do both at once. He's never been shown to do it afterall. Don't give Hitsugaya powers he has never before demonstrated.
Did I say he could? I just said that you shouldn't assume it because it hasn't been shown. I don't assume he can or can't, and neither should you - we BOTH don't believe anyone can do anything before we saw it with our own us or got a reliable enough source tell us what it is.
No, i do believe Hitsugaya can pierce Zaraki, that's not the problem here. He simply CANNOT hope to beat Zaraki in a closerange battle. If there's one thing Zaraki is good at, it's a melee battle. Longrange tactics are Hitsugaya's one and only hope.
Your point? I say the same thing. Hitsugaya should freeze Zaraki with his shikai, but he still has all those "stab-and-freeze" moves (his only ones, really, beside his ultimate move), which should be able to at least freeze Zaraki if he got him. He won't win in a sword right, completely true. Zaraki would take him apart. But if he used Ryuusenka on Zaraki and then stabbed patches in the gut? Zaraki would be an icicle. That move killed Shawlong.
He could have done exactly that. That Aizen didn't , was just a matter of style. He chose to beat Hitsugaya that way. He could have easily done it 10-15 different ways. The power difference between Hitsugaya and Aizen is simply that big.
I *know* Aizen can take Hitsugaya apart by breathing. The question I was raising was, why did he catch Hitsugaya's bankai with his finger, or let him stab him just to show that Hitsugaya is useless? That would be much more stylish and wouldn't hurt him anyway. He did the same with Komamura - he dodged his shikai strike but stopped his actual sword with his finger.
I can't even believe you brought up such a point. You of all people should know how incredibly weak Hitsugaya is. And then to compare this guy with AIZEN....
All is fair is love and war... and when I'm arguing for one of the characters I like least, I have to bring in the most I can find...:whatevah:

Olrox

09-11-2007, 08:06 PM

I think Zaraki would win. He's defeated 2 captains already (Tousen and the former 11th squad captain), so I don't think Hitsu would be much of a problem, afterall Hitsu seems to be one of the weakest captains. Zaraki would most likely be able to break out of the ice and Zaraki is much better at melee combat, not to mention alot taller, giving him a huge advantage in melee.

jonat3

09-11-2007, 08:09 PM

Did I say he could? I just said that you shouldn't assume it because it hasn't been shown. I don't assume he can or can't, and neither should you - we BOTH don't believe anyone can do anything before we saw it with our own us or got a reliable enough source tell us what it is.

True.

Your point? I say the same thing. Hitsugaya should freeze Zaraki with his shikai, but he still has all those "stab-and-freeze" moves (his only ones, really, beside his ultimate move), which should be able to at least freeze Zaraki if he got him. He won't win in a sword right, completely true. Zaraki would take him apart. But if he used Ryuusenka on Zaraki and then stabbed patches in the gut? Zaraki would be an icicle. That move killed Shawlong.

Just for the record, Hitsugaya's bankai will have the same effect on Zaraki as he had when he was still limited against Shawlong . In other words, not very effective. I said that Hitsugaya's only hope are longrange tactics. Yet, those tactics rely on ice attacks that have a limited effect. So, Hitsugaya actually has no hope at all. THAT'S my main point.

Come to think of it, longrange tactics isn't the way to win. The only way that Hitsugaya can win is through plotkai. And i don't find that a very legitimate way of winning, unless Kubo writes that battle.

I *know* Aizen can take Hitsugaya apart by breathing. The question I was raising was, why did he catch Hitsugaya's bankai with his finger, or let him stab him just to show that Hitsugaya is useless? That would be much more stylish and wouldn't hurt him anyway. He did the same with Komamura - he dodged his shikai strike but stopped his actual sword with his finger.

Well, only Aizen (or Kubo) knows why he chose that way. But you should know enough about Aizen to know he could have done it like Ichigo if he so chose to. And that's the only thing that's relevant.

All is fair is love and war... and when I'm arguing for one of the characters I like least, I have to bring in the most I can find...:whatevah:

Lol, even when you are arguing for Hitsugaya, you somehow find a way to insult him. :Haha

Undying

09-11-2007, 08:15 PM

Just for the record, Hitsugaya's bankai will have the same effect on Zaraki as he had when he was still limited against Shawlong . In other words, not very effective. I said that Hitsugaya's only hope are longrange tactics. Yet, those tactics rely on ice attacks that have a limited effect. So, Hitsugaya actually has no hope at all. THAT'S my main point.
Wait, who said Zaraki is more powerful than Shawlong? Or has more reiatsu than him? And also, we don't know the difference between limited Hitsugaya and not-limited Hitsugaya. We know he gets all his reiatsu back, but we don't know how it really affects his attack powers. Not to mention we know Hitsugaya was stalling for time (because that's the only thing he knows how to do), so he probably weakened his attacks to put on a show.
Come to think of it, longrange tactics isn't the way to win. The only way that Hitsugaya can win is through plotkai. And i don't find that a very legitimate way of winning, unless Kubo writes that battle.
Longrange tactics with powerful attacks is the way to win... Byakuya? The only problem is, the only thing Hitsugaya got going for him is the fact he has the ice advantage. If Zaraki indeed has enough power to just break th