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Vampyrelord
10-12-2007, 06:34 PM
I've often wondered what it is that makes some RPGs good and some bad. Some factors are obvious, others less so, and (of course) some are down to the individual gamer's opinion. What follows is merely my rambling thoughts trying to reach some conclusion on this matter.

I recognize though that my views are not always in tune with everyone else's - I hated Neverwinter Nights (poor character interaction, boring gameplay, a terrible main plot and nothing that really made it stand out) and I didn't really like Morrowind (as far as I could see it merely comprised of me running around and hacking stuff), but on the whole I think RPGs I like are the popular ones (KotOR, BG, Jade Empire etc).

Some people are of the view that a good RPG should be like Final Fantasy or Jade Empire, which is like "Playing through a movie" and you have a clear role to fill. Other players (I am closer to this view) think that freedom, flexibility and a good plot and quests are the most important.

I. Plot

A good comparison we can make is between a very successful RPG, Knights of the Old Republic, and it's sequel, Knights of the Old Republic II, which was also successful, but less so than the original. Why? Well, the developers changed, which meant that rather than the experienced Bioware team, KotOR II was designed by Obsidian, who lack Bioware's experience.

Some of the mistakes they made, in my view, were:

a) Plot problems. The continuity of the game was shit. Unlike in KotOR original, where everything was well explained and you always knew what was going on, KotOR II's plot was mainly focussed around Force theory, rather than something straightforward like beating Darth Malak and the Sith, as in KotOR original. Some of the things in KotOR II are very badly explained, if they are explained at all (I once found a corpse on the Ebon Hawk after fighting some Red Eclipse slavers and I was clearly supposed to know who he was, but it wasn't explained and I had no clue), and equally when Visas joins you, you don't really get any explanation (one minute you're fighting, the next, she's with you). The game also doesn't bother explaining how your fatal Force Bond with Kreia is broken (I assume it must be broken because when she dies at the end, you don't die too), or what really happens at the end.

The lesson? Gamers don't like not knowing what's going on when they feel they *should* know what's going on. Generally, complicated plots, like in KotOR II or Sword of Mana do not work unless the plot is clearly explained. By the end of Sword of Mana I was fairly confused as to what the whole adventure had been for, given how little explanation I got. KotOR original and the Golden Sun Series, or the Baldur's Gate series (all successful RPGs) *all* have stronger, slightly simpler plots, which are properly explained. Baldur's Gate II was better than Baldur's Gate original primarily, in my view, because the plot was explained better. Jade Empire (another Bioware RPG) was good because although the plot was fairly complex, it was easy to follow.

b) They screwed up swoop racing, and made some races impossible to finish. Although it's just a minigame, this sort of thing annoys gamers.

c) This one is subjective, but...I think KotOR II was a break from the more traditional Star Wars 'feel', and at times it didn't really feel like Star Wars at all - not necessarily bad, but I didn't like it.

II. Quests

There are other elements to RPGs, of course. Missions and Quests are another major feature of any RPG, and what made me hate Neverwinter Nights was the TEDIUM. As far as I could see, your character was just some errand boy; given that the first plot missions were "find the ingredients to make the cure" and "recover the stolen cure", the next 4 were "find the cult who started the plague by searching these 4 really obvious places", the next 4 were "recover the 4 words of power"...see what I mean? A better name would have been "Neverending Nights spent doing tedious little chores rather than real missions".

It's worth mentioning though that the expansion to NWN Hordes of the Underdark was much better, because you got a clear and interesting plot, better quests, and more freedom.

Baldur's Gate II had some very good quests, as did KotOR and Fable (Fable's were probably the best, though the overall plot wasn't as good).

III. Freedom

In Neverwinter Nights, you're always restricted to a few areas, whereas in Fable, Baldur's Gate and KotOR you have more freedom to "do your own thing". Fable is the most extreme of these, giving your character massive personalization options, as well as plot freedom.

Another problem with NWN was that it was heavily scripted and your actions had little real bearing on how the game played.

Interestingly enough, Jade Empire did not give you anything like the freedom of the other RPGs mentioned (very little character customization, rigid adherence to the main plot, no way of returning to previous areas) but somehow made up for it with a great plot (which didn't move too slowly) and generally awesome gameplay.

IV. Character interaction

Another major factor in the quality of a game is the character interaction - probably why Baldur's Gate is better than Icewind dale, even though they run on the same engine with the same interface. In Icewind Dale, your characters are all made by the player and have no real personality - in BG they are premade and have their own opinions, views, and...character, which allows for interaction. Character interaction is a major theme in Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Knights of the Old Republic and Final Fantasy.

On the other hand, Fable was immensly popular and had almost no character interaction, what it had instead was plot, style and freedom. In a way, it was more epic than other RPGs as you played the life of a Hero, from boyhood to old age.

V. Style

If an RPG has no style, people don't get into it. I hated the NWN style but loved the Baldur's gate, Star Wars, Fable and Jade Empire themes, which made me want to play them more.

KotOR II could be a bit lame or odd in places, which made it less fun (Malachor V looks so shit, it's like they tried to make the last level as unrealistically over the top as possible).

VI. The little things

Stuff like visuals, sound, minigames etc. These little things can be of bigger importance than you might imagine. Everyone has they own pet likes and hates. My pet hate is repetition, and sadly NWN and Morrowind both score high on that scale.

Another irritating thing is when RPGs have a really boring start that takes forever to finish so you can get on with the plot proper. Baldur's Gate II has a good beginning, unless you want to play it again, in which case Irenicus' dungeon (which takes at least 2 hours to go through) will drive you mad with boredom. KotOR II is the worst offender though, the start on the Peragus mining facility is great the first time, but being around 4 hours long (at least) it's mind numbingly boring if youve done it before.

Fable is a good example of what a beginning should be like, it's no more than an hour and a half and has no annoyingly difficult bits.

Okay, rant finished.

That's my thoughts on the matter, I'm interested to hear anyone else's take on what makes a good RPG :)

Esedess
10-12-2007, 06:54 PM
You made some very good points there, and i could'nt agree more on your views on NWN, that game was so boring! I mean, i spent hours wandering around the same enviroment with no clue what im supposed to do, KotOR was amazing, i also liked KotOR II because of the new game features.

Morrowind takes some time to get into, it all gets better after you complete about 4 or so main quests, so don't shun it so soon, give it a chance and you will see how much of an amazing game it is ;)

I have never played Buldurs Gate (i know, i know) but i have played Fallout 1 & 2, and those were..... INCREDIBLE!!, seriously, the setting was origninal, the plot was interesting, the character interactment was good and the combat was cool.

As for the new ones, Oblivion is just basically Morrowind, cut in half, given a paint job and striped of some of the really fun quests and features Morrowind had, and i have yet to play Fallout 3 (glee).

So, my point is, the old RPG's are the best, where makers had original ideas.

miku
10-12-2007, 07:32 PM
Well...Morrowind's Combat sucked...Oblivion did it much better.
I too <3 Fallout.

What makes a good RPG in my opinion is choice. You should be able to change the world around you, and choose to be who you want to be.
Fable was very black and white as far as choice goes; it could've been done much, much better.
If I want to save the world...I don't want some cut scene followed by credits, you know? I want my actions to reflect upon the world in a permanent way.
RPGs are generally very linear, too linear. I want the consequences of my choices to be unclear at the moment I deicide. I want to be forced into situations where I'm pushed to the edge, and have to make certain moral choices that will permanently affect the game.

Character relationships are also something that needs to be massively improved upon.
Usually in an RPG it's just you, you meet people along the way but you never form a strong bond, or that character doesn't really stick with you very long.
When someone in an RPG dies your general reaction is 'meh.'
And when you’re asked to kill someone, again it's 'meh', and you kill them.
The characters in the world you’re playing in should have stronger roles. Should affect the way you play a game in some way.
"I really like this person, so I'm going out of my way to protect him."
or...
"I hate this person, and how this person impacts the world, I'm going out of my way to bring him down."
RPGs don't have to be linear anymore. Games should be open ended, and the story is the one you make.

Combat is generally what makes or breaks a game at heart.
KotR was a great game, it nailed the feeling of Star Wars and was gorgeous...However its Combat was wonky and not very fun.
Morrowind was huge, had an okay but linear story...but again, the combat was...odd.
I enjoyed NWN's combat...but it was a very linear game.
Jade Empire had great combat, but it was a very weird game. It was beautiful, but strange.


Fable was just OKAY in my opinion, so much more was promised.
I have high hopes for Fable 2.

Exploration is where games like Oblivion shine, and it's something I really enjoy. RPGs should have some level of exploration or an open world.


In short- story telling, choice, and open ended elements should be the main focus for RPGs going foreword. Giving the character more control.

Vampyrelord
10-12-2007, 07:55 PM
Excellent points, guys.

@ Miku: Your comments about games being too black and white - I know EXACTLY what you mean, and a new RPG called "The Witcher" is coming out which plans on correcting this - the consequences of your choices are not immediately apparent, but ARE significant in the long run.

Shinomori
10-13-2007, 06:40 AM
Going upon a topic you kind of got but didn't really -

Character customization.

Just taking it a step further than interaction. Interaction itself is a tool FOR customizing a character, but customization also includes signature moves, racial hatreds, custom classes, and stuff like that. The way I see it, an RPG is that - a Role-playing game. In most (if not all) modern RPGs, however, you're pretty much pigeon-holed into some stereotype. With some notable exceptions (and people are straying towards these exceptions in the recent past), RPGs usually stick you into a role and make you do it. If you have a character that's got a ton of spells, you get crap for damage and crap for HP and defense. That's just the way it is. In exchange, you get a lot of damage on your spells and a lot of MP. However, what a lot of things DON'T allow is for me to make a character that has a ton of HP and MP, but has no damage on his spells - essentially, an entirely status-based supporting caster. If I want to make one...too bad, mages are for killing!

What makes a good RPG is allowing players to immerse themselves by giving them the maximum amount of control over the maximum amount of elements possible. Don't go overboard (I don't need to control my character's average crap size, for example), but add goodies so players make what they want, not what they have to.

Insight
10-15-2007, 08:58 PM
this thread is pretty much just a list of my favorite games. loved baldurs gate. when it came out it was the first time i'd played an epic rpg and i loved it. the story ALWAYS makes an RPG for me.
it's interesting aswell the number of RPG's made by bioware in here. baulders gate, NWN, KOTOR and jade empire. this must mean you are all over the moon about the idea of Mass effect. whether i have to buy a 360 or wait 2 years for it on P.C. doesn't matter i will get this game.
i also enjoyed morrowind and oblivion but for me it is to open and it makes it hard to feel connected. and there is no character interaction which adds alot to the story and that was a shame.

@miku and vamp: i agree the good/evil system has become far too clear cut and i like the way some games are going with trying to rectify that, whitcher, ME and fable 2 (the dog thing looks amazing btw).

@Shino: yeah it's the thing i like about western RPG's over JRPG's is your character customization and that you can make choices throughout the game that effect the plot not just following a completely restricted path.

still the future looks promising. ME as i already said, Fable 2, witcher, Fallout 3 and jade empire 2.

granamonkey
10-15-2007, 10:21 PM
Excellent points, guys.

@ Miku: Your comments about games being too black and white - I know EXACTLY what you mean, and a new RPG called "The Witcher" is coming out which plans on correcting this - the consequences of your choices are not immediately apparent, but ARE significant in the long run.


a lot of games are like that, Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2 is like that, along with KOTOR and KOTOR2. I think what makes a good RPG is:

1. Story - It just has to be good and original.
2. game mechanics (fighting, interface, ect.)
3. customization - You can have awesome customization, but it means nothing if the mechanics suck and the story is horrible.

db
10-16-2007, 06:23 AM
Havent read your ideas; wall of text!

Plot/story is definitely important; its the core of most RPG games IMO.

2nd comes gameplay; it obviously have to be fun. Havent really seen non linear rpgs though, and I assume its tough to do so.

3rd is the difficulty; cant be too hard or too easy; rather I like how some Final Fantasies give you the option to fight tougher bosses if you want.

Baldur's gate was boring for me.

havent really seen any first person RPG

WoW is probably one of the best mmo I have played compared to the other trash like maplestory >_>

Graphics & music are also important; it cannot be bland or it would just make it more boring than ever.

For MMOs, community is important aka Guilds & friends. Else it would just fall and collapse = boring.

Vampyrelord
10-16-2007, 08:29 AM
Hmm, does Black and White count as an RPG?

Yellow
10-17-2007, 06:31 AM
Bleh RPG and MMORPG suck in general i would rather play an MMO because interaction is always fun. The reason you crave "Freedom" in games instead of a set storyline makes sense i guess cause that can lesson the boredom and repetitive quests, dungeons, battles ect. The extreme boredom of going though a story where there is on solution to a "Puzzle" of your characters life is stupid since everything is set. In a games like Fable as your said there are paths and many possibilities for the outcome of this game and in a MMO there is no "Beating the game" or "Game over". All of these games are still Repetitive go here do this kill this pick your skills attack. Id say it takes no skill when your fighting its to slow paced even if it is like oblivion (The best RPG that came out lately). For Yellow there’s a limit to boredom since Yellow has an attention span of a 5 year old and also, I watch anime and all but there a limit to fantasy’s and crazy stuff

Dissidia
10-17-2007, 01:20 PM
Black and White is more of an RTS with Sims-like management elements.
----------
Some good points here. I think you need to identify that there is a large cultural divide in what makes a good RPG. I think it was Hironobu Sakaguchi that said "western players want to intact with the world as themselves and affect events, whilst eastern players just want a good story" (paraphrasing there). Obviously this is why (with a few exceptions) more western RPGs are allowing for character creation whilst eastern give you a set role. Some people want the linearity and it could be argued that allows for a superior product where events play out in the order intended by the writer.

Architecture and the illusion of freedom - Having to run through a repetitive cave or building for hours is not enjoyable (for instance, the Pharos in FFXII). Essentially the task is the same whether it be out at sea on or land (killing monsters from point A to B) but environment is everything. Awe inspiring vistas or tall Romanesque buildings make the world seem unique and less confined. As a player you don't want to feel as if you're being led down a corrdior (even if true). A large amount of PRGs could improve on this, rather than copy/paste indoors environments to artificially lengthen the game.

Gameplay mechanics and balancing issues - I prefer to see RPGs trying an innovative battle system but it shouldn't be shoehorned in. It's sometimes better to play something with few new ideas but polished really well (FFX), than some gimmick that makes you frustrated at the game (slots in Unlimited Saga). Balancing character strength is also something that could be improved upon. If I am sent on repetitive tasks then illusion is key to making me not realise (same event, different name). Most RPGs (especially eastern + linear) make battles so easy it's just a chore making your way to the exit point to see the next cutscene. The fights are rarely taxing and there's little emphasis on exploiting elemental weaknesses. People saying they're "good at RPGs" usually means they've just put a lot of time into it (to level strong characters), no skill required. Final Fantasy series is notorious for this.

Theme and plot - Apparently Sci-Fi and Medieval are the only time periods in the history of mankind (Star Ocean I'm looking at you). This is more of a subjective thing, but I'd personally be tempted by more games breaking form this mold (Persona for instance). Also, if the gameplay is nothing special and you're playing purely to see what happens, it'd be nice if they mixed it up a bit (KOTOR) rather than presenting the most obvious plot twist imaginable. Again I realise some games do eschew these elements but it's a far too common practice.


As mentioned there are minor tweaks that add to enjoyment, such as talking to an NPC multiple times and not getting the same response. I realise I've mostly pointed out flaws that could be improved in Japanese games but I have far less experience with western RPGs.

racemysunfish
10-18-2007, 09:09 PM
A good RPG needs a good story that sucks you in and doesn't let you out! It needs a good balance of difficulty, and monster encounters, because nothing is worse than a tedious dungeon crawl ;_;

DaKidReaper
10-19-2007, 05:06 AM
I couldn't agree with you guys anymore. Everything said here is all true. The story line and the little things are the most improtant things in a RBG game. That's is what we mostly pay attention to.

BloodCero
11-08-2007, 12:46 AM
STORY LINE!!!!!!!!! Rpg's have to have a good story line

rxfreedom
11-08-2007, 07:46 PM
Maybe real time battles and a long story!

Mugen
11-08-2007, 08:14 PM
Chrono Cross is a fine example of what an Perfect Rpg should be. FANTASTIC story Line, Memorable characters, Freedom enough to satisfy the player but not enough to intimidate them, Lengthly main story with a few good side quests and hidden bosses scattered about, multiple endings, new game +, characters that actually have to do with the story and have character development, Difficulty (some good Rpg's fall into the too easy category), Great and original battle system, good music, nice art. I think that about covers all the aspects of a good Rpg