Bleach Tournament-Battle 13 [Possible Spoilers]

[anubis24354]

The rules for the battles are as follows:
1. Each character can use any attack that has been shown in any non-filler episode. If the character has not been shown much, since a certain level of speculation is to be expected, it can be used (Ex. since Halibel hasn’t been shown fighting, her strengths must be speculated about, so she is still a plausible candidate for a battle)
2. You are not required to post a comment about whomever you vote for, but if you vote for a character that has to be speculated about, please at least post your reasons for voting for said character even if it is just because you like the character.
3. Do not purposefully come in and vote for someone that you think will lose just to try and push a weaker character through the brackets. This defeats the purpose of the tournament.
4. All limits placed on Lt. and Capitan rank shinigami are considered lifted for the battle.
5. When considering who to pick as the winner, assume they are fighting in an area devoid of objects that could be used as weapons in battle. This is purely a fight of strength and skill, not who could throw someone else down a cliff or impale them with a rock etc.
6. This is a free for all battle scenario. So even if one of the brackets were to have three Espada and one Shingami, they would not team up against the Shinigami and then battle it out amongst themselves. In other words, even if some combatants would normally team up, they don’t here.
Please follow these rules, and if you think I have really overlooked something important, PM me and I’ll consider weather or not to add it(or if I double posted one character etc.). Also, the combatants are final, if you think I left someone good out, and this tournament goes over well enough for me to consider doing another one, I’ll put them in it if they would fit. I chose characters that are either main combatants in the anime/manga, are not filler characters (let me know if one got in by accident), or if they are popular (as far as I know at least).
I chose the characters for each bracket by assigning them a number and drawing four at a time out of a bag. So the match-ups are completely random.
Another note, you must still follow the general chat rules for CB when posting comments about the current bracket. Since it is almost unavoidable that spoilers will be in here, at least keep them to a minimum, and please use spoiler tags. Remember, just because one of the characters hasn’t been shown in the anime (or dub) does not mean that by reading their name, someone that doesn’t know them will find out any information that might ruin their experience of Bleach. So, again, please still use spoiler tags if you’re going to talk about plot details that haven’t been in the anime yet. [Winners of the previous matches are bolded.]
First Round Second Round Third Round Semi-Finals Finals
1. Rangiku Matsumoto
1. Gantenbein Mosqueda
1. Momo Hinamori
1. Uryu Ishida
2. Ulquiorra Schiffer
2. Luppi
2. Orihime Inoue
2. Kisuke Urahara
3. Ururu Tsumugiya
3. Grimmjow Jeagerjaques
3. Mashiro
3. Dordonii Alessandro Del Socacchio
4. Yasutora “Chad” Sado
4. Renji Abarai
4. Wonderwice Margera
4. Nemu Kurotsuchi
5. Chojiro Sasakibe
5. Marechiyo Omaeda
5. Jushiro Ukitake
5. Halibel
6. Byakuya Kuchiki
6. Aaroniero Arleri
6. Shinji Hirako
6. Rukia Kuchiki
7. Yumichika Ayasegawa
7. Love
7. Stark
7. Izuru Kira
8. Shigekuni Yamamoto-Genryusai
8. Shuhei Hisagi
8. Gin Ichimaru
8. Yammy
9. Szayel Aporro Grantz
9. Toshiro Hitsugaya
9. Yoruichi Shihouin
9. Ichigo Kurosaki
10. Sajin Komamura
10. Ikkaku Madarame
10. Kaname Tosen
10. Lisa Yadomaru
11. Kaien
11. Hiyori Sarugaki
11. Rose
11.Soifon
12. Mayuri Kurotsuchi
12. Nanao Ise
12. Tetsuzaemon Iba
12. Nell
13. Shunsui Kyoraku
13. Ryuken Ishida
13. Cirucci Thunderwitch
13. Isane Kotetsu
14. Isshin Kurosaki
14. Nnoitra
14. Kenpachi Zaraki
14. Hachigen Ushoda
15. Kensei Muguruma
15. Yachiru Kusajishi
15. Sosuke Aizen
15. Retsu Unohana
Note: From now on I'm just going to say that this the next battle will be up within about three days of the previous ones end.

[Seff]

Shunsui is made out to be the next strongest captain underneath Yamma. We don't know the full extent of Ryuuken's powers, but i think he's heavily overrated. If he had a sanrei release, he could probably win, but we just don't know his powers/if he has one.


Better the devil you know than the devil you don't. ^_^

[Undying]

Ryuuken because he is the only cool Quincy around.

Plus I like him better than Shunsui.

[Rayster]

That's not an argument. If you were a newbie I'd verbal warn you for not knowing what spam is -_-

Kyouraku takes this due to his captain traits of bankai, etc.
Shunsui is made out to be the next strongest captain underneath Yamma

[Undying]

Psch. I didn't elaborating because, well, we don't KNOW anything.

You want an argument, ok, cool.

What is our knowledge of Shunsui's abilities? That's right, none. His captains stats show him to be quite underdeveloped in some areas. Also since he is lazy, it would degrade his combat efficiency.

Now, our only basis for Kyouraku's powers is... dun dun dun, Yamamoto's words.

Now what did Yamamoto say? That Shunsui and Ukitake have no peer inside Seireitei.

Ryuuken is not inside Seireitei.

Captain traits like bankai? How about a guy who murdered an Arrancar Menos with a one-handed bow?

Someone who actually tells Uryu (who, if I may remind you, could do a technique that Mayuri stated that over 2000 subjects couldn't) he lacks talent, indicates that he is not weak.

Also, the argument "shunsui is made to be the strongest captain after Yamamoto" is also not an argument at all. Because Ryuuken is not a captain, hence the statement does not allow for safe comparison.

Not to mention that as we've seen Quincy have their own versions of Kido, special gadgets and the like, and Ryuuken has access to all.

Power + loads of techniques and abilities > "captain traits".

Oh and just for a final statement, Ryuuken can use Shunsui's reiatsu to power himself up :).

[Rayster]

Psch. I didn't elaborating because, well, we don't KNOW anything.
I want more than "cos he's cool + I'm a fanboy"

Also since he is lazy, it would degrade his combat efficiency.
lol. Laziness does nothing to combat abilities. You've surely seen enough manga to affirm that. Look at Stark. He's one of the

top 3

Now, our only basis for Kyouraku's powers is... dun dun dun, Yamamoto's words.
The strongest captain of Seiretei. I think that's pretty damn hardcore if not confirmed VALID.

Someone who actually tells Uryu (who, if I may remind you, could do a technique that Mayuri stated that over 2000 subjects couldn't) he lacks talent, indicates that he is not weak.
Who says Ishida Ryuuken is weak? He's not. He'll wtfpwn most ppl. Just not someone like Kyouraku, or the second Espada. That doesn't mean he can't beat the second espada. It means he won't smash him like Ishida -> Mayuri when Ishida -> glove off

Also, the argument "shunsui is made to be the strongest captain after Yamamoto" is also not an argument at all. Because Ryuuken is not a captain, hence the statement does not allow for safe comparison.
So Ryuuken can beat Yama? The point still applies that Kyouraku has prodigious power.

Power + loads of techniques and abilities > "captain traits".
Assumption.

Oh and just for a final statement, Ryuuken can use Shunsui's reiatsu to power himself up :).
If Shinsui lets him.
We never expected Mayuri's crappy lil abilities to wtfpwn Szayel's "awesome abilities".

We still haven't seen Kyouraku's bankai. :)

[Undying]

lol. Laziness does nothing to combat abilities. You've surely seen enough manga to affirm that. Look at Stark. He's one of the

top 3
I'm talking captain stats, and according to them - written by Kubo - Kyouraku's laziness affects his capabilities.
The strongest captain of Seiretei. I think that's pretty damn hardcore if not confirmed VALID.
The strongest captain in Seireitei who did not know about Aizen's power.

And he said "you have no equal", not "you're strongest". "You have no equal can be interpreted in any form.
Who says Ishida Ryuuken is weak? He's not. He'll wtfpwn most ppl. Just not someone like Kyouraku, or the second Espada. That doesn't mean he can't beat the second espada. It means he won't smash him like Ishida -> Mayuri when Ishida -> glove off
On what basis, then, do you state that Kyouraku can beat Ryuuken? None. Thx.
So Ryuuken can beat Yama? The point still applies that Kyouraku has prodigious power.
If Ryuuken can beat Yamamoto, then it proves he can beat Kyouraku...

And how does Kyouraku's "prodigious power" (which is nonexistent, by the way - Yamamoto obviously doesn't know everyone's true powers, just look at Aizen's case) indicate that he is in any form superior to Ryuuken?
Assumption.
Here's a hint: killer poison.
If Shinsui lets him.
We never expected Mayuri's crappy lil abilities to wtfpwn Szayel's "awesome abilities".
Actually Szayel and Mayuri fell under "convenient power" category, so that is beside the point.

And what are you talking about "if Shunsui lets him"? Shunsui will release spiritual pressure whether he likes it or not, if only when attacking. Ryuuken can use it to power himself.
We still haven't seen Kyouraku's bankai. :)
We haven't seen Ryuuken breath hard yet.

Or say that an attack from a barely VC-level kid can hurt him :).

You see, in the end, it comes down to whom I like more.

[Rayster]

I'm talking captain stats, and according to them - written by Kubo - Kyouraku's laziness affects his capabilities.
Going on the databooks now are we? Hitsugaya can even beat the top guns then.

The strongest captain in Seireitei who did not know about Aizen's power.
How do you know? Maybe he did, and just didn't know Aizen would turn around and say fk you?

And he said "you have no equal", not "you're strongest". "You have no equal can be interpreted in any form.
lulz. If he really said that, then Yama is saying Kyouraku is stronger than him. What Yama meant was that Kyouraku is one of the strongest in Seireitei - yes I know of which Ryuu isn't a part of. It doesn't matter, power is power.

On what basis, then, do you state that Kyouraku can beat Ryuuken? None. Thx.
Refer to this whole post.

But vice versa? kthnx.

If Ryuuken can beat Yamamoto, then it proves he can beat Kyouraku...
I was being sarcastic. Refer to the point in my previous post again.

And how does Kyouraku's "prodigious power" (which is nonexistent, by the way - Yamamoto obviously doesn't know everyone's true powers, just look at Aizen's case) indicate that he is in any form superior to Ryuuken?
refer to point 3

Actually Szayel and Mayuri fell under "convenient power" category, so that is beside the point.
If you're going to throw plotkai out there - If Ryuu ever faces Kyouraku, who's to say "convenience" won't play a part? What if Kyouraku's bankai is such that he prohibits the release or absorption of his reiatsu, thus attuning it purely to himself, etc etc

We don't know his bankai. That's a level beyond what we know of Ryuu so far.

And what are you talking about "if Shunsui lets him"? Shunsui will release spiritual pressure whether he likes it or not, if only when attacking. Ryuuken can use it to power himself.
As above

We haven't seen Ryuuken breath hard yet.
And Kyouraku has?

You see, in the end, it comes down to whom I like more.
Pretty much. Using some cues from the manga doesn't hurt either

[Undying]

Going on the databooks now are we? Hitsugaya can even beat the top guns then.
Uh, no. Read my post there for clarification on how these stats apply, otherwise it doesn't settle with the manga.

How do you know? Maybe he did, and just didn't know Aizen would turn around and say fk you?
If he knew that one of his captains was potentially stronger than himself, do you think he would have claimed Kyouraku and Ukitake have no peer? Please.
lulz. If he really said that, then Yama is saying Kyouraku is stronger than him. What Yama meant was that Kyouraku is one of the strongest in Seireitei - yes I know of which Ryuu isn't a part of. It doesn't matter, power is power.
You're using it to base a claim as if Kyouraku is stronger than Ryuuken based on Kyouraku being strongest in a different world.

This is not basis for a claim. You can go on ranting about it, but "power is power" and Ryuuken has more.

How do I know?

Same place that everyone brings that Ogichi gave Ichigo power when he fought with Zaraki, that you're bringing the unfounded claim that Kyouraki has more power than Ryuuken (with NO indication on either person's power) and from where people assume that Isshin must be a Shiba.

Refer to this whole post.
"He is second strongest captain so he is strongest" = bullshit.
But vice versa? kthnx.
Hence why I say, "it comes down to whom I like more".
I was being sarcastic. Refer to the point in my previous post again.
"Kyouraku is second strongest captain so he can pwn everyone" = bullshit.
If you're going to throw plotkai out there - If Ryuu ever faces Kyouraku, who's to say "convenience" won't play a part? What if Kyouraku's bankai is such that he prohibits the release or absorption of his reiatsu, thus attuning it purely to himself, etc etc
Not plotkai.

Quincy abilities.

What you're doing is shooting in convenient powers (plotkai) with no basis.
We don't know his bankai. That's a level beyond what we know of Ryuu so far.
We don't know the full extend of Ryuuken's abilities.

You're unnecessarily degrading the Quincy on no basis whatsoever.
And Kyouraku has?
Kyouraku stated that Chad's weakest move (he now has much more powerful ones) would have hurt him.

Have you seen Ryuuken display any such weakness? Nope.
Pretty much. Using some cues from the manga doesn't hurt either
Your "manga cues":

"Kyouraku is stated to be second strongest captain in Seireite, peerless captain, hence he pwns all" = utter bullshit, we still don't know if people like Urahara or Isshin are superior to Kyouraku, not to mention someone Yamamoto has never met.

"Power is power" = and Ryuuken has more.

"Kyouraku might have convenient abilities" = so might Ryuuken.

Etc.

You have no basis whatsoever for your claims, so my first post stands.

Ryuuken is cooler, so he GMV.

[Rayster]

Uh, no. Read my post there for clarification on how these stats apply, otherwise it doesn't settle with the manga.

"Kyouraku's laziness affects his capabilities."
You still haven't proved that he'd be affected enough to be downed by Ryuu

If he knew that one of his captains was potentially stronger than himself, do you think he would have claimed Kyouraku and Ukitake have no peer? Please.
Who said Aizen was stronger than Yama during the time Aizen was in SS? Come on... a bit of an outrageous claim there.

You're using it to base a claim as if Kyouraku is stronger than Ryuuken based on Kyouraku being strongest in a different world.
Then Ryuu's power cannot be claimed to be higher OR lower. End of discussion.

This is not basis for a claim. You can go on ranting about it, but "power is power" and Ryuuken has more.
Yes. Ranting. Exactly what I'm doing. -_-

How do I know?
Same place that everyone brings that Ogichi gave Ichigo power when he fought with Zaraki, that you're bringing the unfounded claim that Kyouraki has more power than Ryuuken (with NO indication on either person's power)
I'm saying Kyouraku COULD have more due to manga claims from ppl other than the actual person.

And where exactly have you so perfectly proved that Ryuu > Kyouraku?

and from where people assume that Isshin must be a Shiba.
Pfft. Don't try to discredit me by placing me in the same category as ppl who argue random claims.

Obviously majority of ppl support Kyouraku, so it isn't just me. I'm just the one arguing it

"He is second strongest captain so he is strongest" = bullshit.
Who said he's the strongest?

From where are you pulling these statements? You've done this repeatedly in just this debate. Stop putting words in my mouth and argue my points.

"Kyouraku is second strongest captain so he can pwn everyone" = bullshit.
Dude. I never said that. Read back to where I said:

Who says Ishida Ryuuken is weak? He's not. He'll wtfpwn most ppl. Just not someone like Kyouraku, or the second Espada. That doesn't mean he can't beat the second espada. It means he won't smash him like Ishida -> Mayuri when Ishida -> glove off


Not plotkai.

Quincy abilities.
Yeh, say that when another moment arrives where someones defence matches perfectly with another's attack.

Plotkai is bull

What you're doing is shooting in convenient powers (plotkai) with no basis.
Major lulz. I said that's what you're doing. ANd I disproved it. The discussion of plot kai finished as soon as I mentioned you were doing it.

You're unnecessarily degrading the Quincy on no basis whatsoever.
Did i get personal with your Quincy fandom? I never "degraded" Ryuu. If you can find where I did, show me. Please. No need to fly off the handle.

There's no need to defend it so vigorously. I like Quincy's, I like Ryuuken. Relax.

Again. I said: Who says Ishida Ryuuken is weak? He's not. He'll wtfpwn most ppl.

Kyouraku stated that Chad's weakest move (he now has much more powerful ones) would have hurt him.
Urahara also said Ichigo's shikai would have hurt him. Think that's enough to prove that Ryuu > Ura? Ura also still has bankai, its a parallel argument.

"Kyouraku is stated to be second strongest captain in Seireite, peerless captain, hence he pwns all" = utter bullshit
When did I say "pwn all"?

Undying, you wrote me a letter saying you lived on the moon.

Where? Idk, you find it. Exactly. You can't. You never said it. Stick to what I'm saying.

Stop assuming.

You have no basis whatsoever for your claims
And you have provided what claims that Ryuu > Kyouraku?

Ryuuken is cooler, so he GMV.

Well this isn't a who's cooler thread so I don't care. I never said to change your vote. I said reasoning would be good. You provided anti-Kyouraku claims instead of pro-Ryuu. I'm entitled to defend what I perceive to be inaccurate claims.

[Undying]

You still haven't proved that he'd be affected enough to be downed by Ryuu
You ought to read my posts =\. I never said Ryuu would win, I'm simply disproving your claims because we don't know enough. That's what I've been saying all along =/.
Who said Aizen was stronger than Yama during the time Aizen was in SS? Come on... a bit of an outrageous claim there.
You quoted me and you didn't read the post. I salute you.

I said potentially stronger because we don't know. Potentially, Aizen was stronger than Yamamoto prior to his escape. Or not.

We don't know.

That's why I said potentially.
Then Ryuu's power cannot be claimed to be higher OR lower. End of discussion.
And you continue, but did you notice that's exactly the point I'm making? Neither of us has any valid claims.
Yes. Ranting. Exactly what I'm doing. -_-
I don't want to degrade to personal attacks man but yes, that's what you're doing.
I'm saying Kyouraku COULD have more due to manga claims from ppl other than the actual person.
Ryuuken never actually claimed he is powerful. He demonstrated i by downing a Menos (for comparison, Uryu's arrows didn't even scratch a regular Gillian, Ryuuken brought down an instantly-regenerating Arrancar and his buddy without so much as blinking).

My point is, and if you'd read what I was saying you'd realize it instead of shooting the same empty claim into the air again, is that we can't prove or disprove which one is strongest and the claims/demonstrations are not valid enough basis for an argument.

And where exactly have you so perfectly proved that Ryuu > Kyouraku?
I'm didn't. I never tried. Read above.
Pfft. Don't try to discredit me by placing me in the same category as ppl who argue random claims.p
I place you in the category which represents what you are doing :|.
Obviously majority of ppl support Kyouraku, so it isn't just me. I'm just the one arguing it
Read above for my point, which you apparently missed.
Who said he's the strongest?
From where are you pulling these statements? You've done this repeatedly in just this debate. Stop putting words in my mouth and argue my points.
Uh, are you reading what you are writing? You say that due to the fact that Kyouraku has been stated as the second strongest captain in Soul Society by Yamamoto, it proves he wins this poll.

My general statement fits perfectly into what you are saying in this specific case: "Kyouraku is the second strongest captain, hence he wins the poll".

Happy now? That's what you've been saying.

It is not valid.
Dude. I never said that. Read back to where I said:
Who says Ishida Ryuuken is weak? He's not. He'll wtfpwn most ppl. Just not someone like Kyouraku, or the second Espada. That doesn't mean he can't beat the second espada. It means he won't smash him like Ishida -> Mayuri when Ishida -> glove off
And the Segunda Espada has to do what, here?

And here you are just proving what I already said. "Kyouraku is stated to be the second strongest captain hence he wins here".

Not valid.
Yeh, say that when another moment arrives where someones defence matches perfectly with another's attack.
Plotkai is bull
Quincy abilities is to suck in spiritual force.

Shinigami exhume spiritual force.

Quincy can absorb that and power themselves.

Not plotkai.
Major lulz. I said that's what you're doing. ANd I disproved it. The discussion of plot kai finished as soon as I mentioned you were doing it.
Did i get personal with your Quincy fandom? I never "degraded" Ryuu. If you can find where I did, show me. Please. No need to fly off the handle.
You're saying he can't beat Kyouraku based on... nothing. That's degrading to a degree (hey nice word play :o).

And you disproved nothing except yourself by neglecting to remember Quincy basis =\.
There's no need to defend it so vigorously. I like Quincy's, I like Ryuuken. Relax.
And this has to do with this what?

I am merely disproving your invalid claims, that's all.

Relax.

And stop assuming. Remember who you're arguing with.
Again. I said: Who says Ishida Ryuuken is weak? He's not. He'll wtfpwn most ppl.
But not Kyouraku, according to you.

Why? Because Kyouraku is "the second strongest captain".

Not valid.
Urahara also said Ichigo's shikai would have hurt him. Think that's enough to prove that Ryuu > Ura? Ura also still has bankai, its a parallel argument.
When did I say "pwn all"?
Ichigo's shikai has a far greater destructive force than Chad's punches (see resulting damage).

Also, yes, Urahara said it, but it's not valid enough to prove anyone's superiority over Urahara (hell, Ichigo's bankai GT hurt Grimmjow, and since it's a more powerful version of GT, Ichigo would hurt Urahara, but it doesn't prove that Grimmjow is superior to Urahara).

Again, there is no valid evidence that Kyouraku is superior to Ryuuken or vice-versa. Stop pulling arguments from the air, I told you already, it comes down to whom you like more.
Undying, you wrote me a letter saying you lived on the moon.
Where? Idk, you find it. Exactly. You can't. You never said it. Stick to what I'm saying.
That's what I do Dec-boy.

Just read my posts.

Btw, I do live on the moon.
Stop assuming.
And to you.
And you have provided what claims that Ryuu > Kyouraku?
None. Because I never attempted to prove it. My point is and was: there is no valid claim to either character. It comes down to who you like more.
Well this isn't a who's cooler thread so I don't care. I never said to change your vote. I said reasoning would be good. You provided anti-Kyouraku claims instead of pro-Ryuu. I'm entitled to defend what I perceive to be inaccurate claims.
So I am to understand from this that you are defending your inaccurate claims?

Again: there is no valid evidence to prove either one is superior to each other hence the vote comes down to who people prefer.

Edn.

[Helikaon]

Im going to say that I dont think Kubo will ever make a Quincy stronger than one of the top captains, or should I say veteran captains. Ryuu may be strong but in my opinion Kubo's interests in characters always leans to furthering the power of Shinigami..

I think that also because Ryuuken is a quincy he will hit a power wall before Kyouraku. As far as we know Quincy dont have any more upgrades than just their base power.. and I know upgrades arnt anything but in the end in my opinion that would be the defining difference.

[Rayster]

You ought to read my posts =\. I never said Ryuu would win, I'm simply disproving your claims because we don't know enough. That's what I've been saying all along =/.

You quoted me and you didn't read the post. I salute you.
I read your post, thanks.

I said potentially stronger because we don't know. Potentially, Aizen was stronger than Yamamoto prior to his escape. Or not.
What was the point of even saying what you said then?

Srsly, look at this:
If he knew that one of his captains was potentially stronger than himself, do you think he would have claimed Kyouraku and Ukitake have no peer? Please.
How can anyone know how strong Aizen would become? It's ridiculous to even suggest that.. It's got nothing to do with Yama's statement.

If Aizen was stronger than Yama at that time, the statement could not be said.

Potential doesn't matter. AT THAT TIME, Aizen could have been as strong, but not as "prized" as Kyouraku and Ukitake

I don't want to degrade to personal attacks man but yes, that's what you're doing.
Ohhh, nice try. You almost DIDN'T get personal and throw a false insult.

Almost there, keep at it. I have faith in you :)

Ryuuken never actually claimed he is powerful. He demonstrated i by downing a Menos (for comparison, Uryu's arrows didn't even scratch a regular Gillian, Ryuuken brought down an instantly-regenerating Arrancar and his buddy without so much as blinking).

My point is, and if you'd read what I was saying you'd realize it instead of shooting the same empty claim into the air again, is that we can't prove or disprove which one is strongest and the claims/demonstrations are not valid enough basis for an argument.
What have you been doing then? Read that quote. You just tried to prove Ryuuken's strength. I've tried to prove Kyouraku's BECAUSE you were arguing AGAINST him.

The last two points of hypocrisy on your part doesn't stand in your favour

I place you in the category which represents what you are doing :|
You assume. The examples don't even match what I'm doing. Then I'd just place you in the category that screams plotkai at every twist. But I'm not that thickheaded, since you're a different person, who hasn't actually argued that claim.

Uh, are you reading what you are writing?
Are you reading it?
You say that due to the fact that Kyouraku has been stated as the second strongest captain in Soul Society by Yamamoto, it proves he wins this poll.
No, as I said: You just tried to prove Ryuuken's strength. I've tried to prove Kyouraku's BECAUSE you were arguing AGAINST him.

Again, read my posts. Over the last few posts I've had to repeat myself.

Not plotkai.
Of course not. Read my post again.

You're saying he can't beat Kyouraku based on... nothing. That's degrading to a degree
No, I'm saying RYUU can't beat Kyouraku, as you suggested he would besides the fact that you think he's cooler.

And this has to do with this what?
The fact that you thought I was "degrading" a fictional character.

I am merely disproving your invalid claims, that's all.
As am I.

Relax

And stop assuming.
Nice, just use my words. Often happens when there's nothing left to argue.

Remember who you're arguing with
It should have no bearing on the arguments

But not Kyouraku, according to you.

Why? Because Kyouraku is "the second strongest captain".

Not valid.
Hah. So Ryuuken will one-shot Kyouraku? He cannot. Read my post again. I said Ryuuken can destroy opponents like that, but he won't be able to destroy Kyouraku like that

Again, there is no valid evidence that Kyouraku is superior to Ryuuken or vice-versa
Exactly.

Yet you said Ryu > Kyouraku in your first arguments.

Stop pulling arguments from the air
I'm disproving your false claims :rolleye09

Btw, I do live on the moon.
Light on air are we. And I don't have the letter you sent me. You never write anymore. I'm starting to think you've moved on.

None. Because I never attempted to prove it. My point is and was: there is no valid claim to either character. It comes down to who you like more.
Yet you told me to go back to your posts, in which you stated that Ryuuken would win because of actual facts, not just because you like him more.

So I am to understand from this that you are defending your inaccurate claims?
This would mean your inaccurate claims, Undies.

Again: there is no valid evidence to prove either one is superior to each other hence the vote comes down to who people prefer.
As I said, pretty much.

And it's a debate for a reason. Stop trying to kill it >:

People want to waste their lives doing it like us.

Edn.
I doubt others would appreciate the jabs like I did.

Keep to the topic and don't ever make claims about the person, lest they report you again.

[Undying]

I read your post, thanks.
Have you? Have you really? Your replies give no indication of that.
What was the point of even saying what you said then?
Srsly, look at this:
How can anyone know how strong Aizen would become? It's ridiculous to even suggest that.. It's got nothing to do with Yama's statement.
If Aizen was stronger than Yama at that time, the statement could not be said.
Potential doesn't matter. AT THAT TIME, Aizen could have been as strong, but not as "prized" as Kyouraku and Ukitake
Oh man... you're doing what everyone are doing, jeez...

Aizen didn't just suddenly receive a power-boost upon becoming a villain. His power was always there.

Then you just need to read my posts and see that Yamamoto doesn't know what he's talking about, as a general statement.

"Prized"? What does that have to do with anything? Power is power. If Yamamoto really knew about power between captains, and understood the true power of characters, he would not have said that Kyouraku and Ukitake are without peer. Yamamoto has no indepth knowledge of his subordinates.

The proof is Aizen and Renji, as he missed that Aizen is potentially stronger than himself and that Renji was not an easily replaceable VC, being a person with bankai.

Don't alter your arguments, thanks.
Ohhh, nice try. You almost DIDN'T get personal and throw a false insult.
Almost there, keep at it. I have faith in you :)
:rolleye09 Getting personal are we Dec? Don't make me play arrogant, you know as well as I do what happens.
What have you been doing then? Read that quote. You just tried to prove Ryuuken's strength. I've tried to prove Kyouraku's BECAUSE you were arguing AGAINST him.
No, I'm arguing against YOU, I am saying no one has any valid proof of their power over each other, and you're trying to blame me for spamming =\.

My post was every bit as valid as yours.

Since there is no proof one is stronger the other, I vote for those I prefer.
The last two points of hypocrisy on your part doesn't stand in your favour
You assume. The examples don't even match what I'm doing. Then I'd just place you in the category that screams plotkai at every twist. But I'm not that thickheaded, since you're a different person, who hasn't actually argued that claim.
Now you;re trying to degrade me.

I have stated your claim is as empty as other claims and then gave a similar claim to counter yours. I am not trying to degrade you, I am pointing to what you are doing.

Throughout your arguments you have one base claim: "Kyouraku is stated to be the second strongest captain, therefore he must be stronger than all the competitors for the poll".

Bullshit and a very empty claim, just like the others I listed.

The only reason you think I am degrading you is because of a guilty conscience - I am right.

And calling me a hypocrite? On what basis?
Are you reading it?
Oh I do, my point is still the same, with slightly varying supporting arguments.
No, as I said: You just tried to prove Ryuuken's strength. I've tried to prove Kyouraku's BECAUSE you were arguing AGAINST him.
And I have proven that your proof does not stand, and I am right.

Edn.

Oh and as I said, my point is that my vote goes for whom I prefer because no one can prove that either is superior.
Again, read my posts. Over the last few posts I've had to repeat myself.
Of course not. Read my post again.
Considering that you've neglected to read my posts, why should i extend this courtesy to you?
No, I'm saying RYUU can't beat Kyouraku, as you suggested he would besides the fact that you think he's cooler.
On what basis?
The fact that you thought I was "degrading" a fictional character.
And this changes what? You fail to put any valid claims to support your argument of Kyouraku being stronger and yet you claim he is superior to character X.

How is that not degrading?
As am I.
What invalid claims on my part have you disproved?

Is the claim that there is no evidence to support either one's superiority false? No.

Is the claim that you've got no support for your empty claims false? No.

You've disproved nothing. Don't try playing arrogant with me.
Nice, just use my words. Often happens when there's nothing left to argue.
No, I just have nothing to argue against :whatevah: .
It should have no bearing on the arguments
It doesn't, seeing as you have none.
Hah. So Ryuuken will one-shot Kyouraku? He cannot. Read my post again. I said Ryuuken can destroy opponents like that, but he won't be able to destroy Kyouraku like that
Way to go on being unable to read and interpret posts =_=. My statement is a general argument about fighting prowess, not one-shooting opponents.

As you said, "just use my words" - you can't argue against the actual meaning, so you stick to it whatever meaning you can to discredit it.
Exactly.
Yet you said Ryu > Kyouraku in your first arguments.
No, I said I prefer him hence he GMV :).
I'm disproving your false claims :rolleye09
But you've just said that you are entitled to defend inaccurate claims. If you're not defending your claims, what claims are you defending, mine?

You go against yourself :)
Light on air are we. And I don't have the letter you sent me. You never write anymore. I'm starting to think you've moved on.
Air? Only the weak breath.
Yet you told me to go back to your posts, in which you stated that Ryuuken would win because of actual facts, not just because you like him more.
Dechan, I said Ryuuken GMV because I like him more, refer to my first post.
This would mean your inaccurate claims, Undies.
"I am entitled to defend what I perceive as inaccurate claims". That's what you said. You are defending either your claims, or mine.

Which is it? Yours? Then you've agreed that your claims are inaccurate (unfounded, actually).

Mine? Wait are you defending my claims? Then what are we arguing about?
As I said, pretty much.
No, you keep saying Kyouraku would win :whatevah:
And it's a debate for a reason. Stop trying to kill it >:

People want to waste their lives doing it like us.
Just because we're lifeless enough to do it... And there is no debate where one side tries to claim that the manga proves their vote is right =_=
I doubt others would appreciate the jabs like I did.
Keep to the topic and don't ever make claims about the person, lest they report you again.
I'm arguing against you aren't I?

And you've made no less jabs at my person than I did at yours, kthx.

Anyway, unless you can provide valid evidence that Kyouraku can defeat Ryuuken in a contest of fighting capabilities, and that does not include the following:

1. Yamamoto established Kyouraku as the second strongest captain, and hence he must be the most powerful of the poll choices. (never mind that Yamamoto fails to know half his subordinates' powers...)

2. Segunda Espada (what does that have to do with Ryuuken anyway?)

3. Convenient, not-yet-shown powers which Kyouraku can do to stop Ryuuken's most basic abilities (such as using any present spiritual force to add to one's own).

4. Just claiming that Kyouraku is stronger

Then you can stop replying, because there's no point in this debate. Just empty claims on your part and boredom on mine.

[Wren]

There really is no proof a quincy can use a Shinigami's reiatsu to power their own attacks unless they're physicaly touching and from what we've seen Shunsui is pretty good a shunpo being able to travel long distances in one step would also probably me he can make a lot of short jumps really really fast. Also unknown are even his shikai abilities but they're obviously good enough to fend of probably the strongest Captain (apologies to Aizen but I dont buy hes stronger than yama but thats a different argument)

And we cant forget Shunsui has a bankai that does who knows what, and regarding the little captain meters his were mostly 80's 90s and a few hundreds. He was 3rd on that list if i can remember correctly (if not he cant be lower than 4th)

Ryuken is a quincy, a lot of their abilities have already been shown and he seems to master them all all thats left are the tricks with their little soul silver bottles and those arent effective unless given time and i doubt he could delay Shunsui that long. Ryuken wouldnt stand a chance.

[Rayster]

Oh man... you're doing what everyone are doing, jeez...

Aizen didn't just suddenly receive a power-boost upon becoming a villain. His power was always there.
That's what I meant by my first point! That's why I said you didn't read it. You said he had "potential" - and said I didn't read it. YOU'RE the one who's saying he got some power boost.

I'M saying he could have been that strong back then.

And you've made no less jabs at my person than I did at yours, kthx.
I'd rather do that than warn you.

1. Yamamoto established Kyouraku as the second strongest captain, and hence he must be the most powerful of the poll choices.

lol I'll leave this here.

(never mind that Yamamoto fails to know half his subordinates' powers...)
Ok, follow this:

You don't know that Yama didn't know Aizen's strength. As I said the first time, the ONLY thing Yama might NOT have known is that Aizen would betray him. Therefore, as I said in the first post, Aizen could have been that strong back then. Therfore, Kyou > Aizen due to Yama's statement. This isn't an assumption, its logical.

However, you started saying "potential" - so I had to change my argument to accomodate the fact that Aizen could have got a power up, because that what you alleged. If so, Aizen > Kyou NOW.

[Undying]

That's what I meant by my first point! That's why I said you didn't read it. You said he had "potential" - and said I didn't read it. YOU'RE the one who's saying he got some power boost.
No, you misinterpreted my post =\. I said Aizen was potentially - meaning, we do not know whether it is true that he's stronger. He may be stronger or not, but Yamamoto didn't know that.
I'M saying he could have been that strong back then.
:facepalm: That's what I said. He was as strong as he was in the Arrancar arc, it's just that Yamamoto did not know that.
I'd rather do that than warn you.

It wasn't a rebuke, you demented monkey :ttgl:.
Ok, follow this:
You don't know that Yama didn't know Aizen's strength. As I said the first time, the ONLY thing Yama might NOT have known is that Aizen would betray him. Therefore, as I said in the first post, Aizen could have been that strong back then. Therfore, Kyou > Aizen due to Yama's statement. This isn't an assumption, its logical.
You altered your argument.

Your initial argument stated that Yamamoto's statement about Shunsui means he is probably stronger than Ryuuken =\. I said I take a vote based on preference.

Anyway, Yamamoto has no idea to his subordinates strengths and he is grossly misinformed as to their abilities (forget that Aizen cheated everyone for a moment).

He had no idea Renji had bankai. He didn't even consider the possibility. What does that mean? That he doesn't know his subordinates true powers, hence his statement is not valid.

And even if it is, get this:

Ryuuken may be strong enough to take on Yamamoto alone :o.
However, you started saying "potential" - so I had to change my argument to accomodate the fact that Aizen could have got a power up, because that what you alleged. If so, Aizen > Kyou NOW.
You misinterpret "potential" and "potentially".

Fact is we don't know if Aizen is stronger than Yama, or vice-versa. We've had killer debates about this. But we don't know.

But if Yamamoto knew that there was a captain that was possibly his second (without actually knowing said captain's true powers, hint hint hint), would he have stated that Kyouraku and Ukitake were without peer? Obviously not! It's a heavy overestimation of their powers if a captain who is possibly as strong as Yamamoto himself (who is more powerful than Shunsui and Ukitake) is not equal to the pair.

Therefore, Yamamoto's statement indicates that he does not know the full power/potentially hidden power of his subordinates (also see Renji case).

It's not valid to assume that Kyouraku is second strongest in Seireitei based on a statement made by someone ignorant of the truth.

For example, if someone who doesn't know me says I live on earth, it won't make their statement true because... I don't.

[Rayster]

No, you misinterpreted my post =\. I said Aizen was potentially - meaning, we do not know whether it is true that he's stronger.
That's why I use "if" and "might" for my posts

That's what I said. He was as strong as he was in the Arrancar arc, it's just that Yamamoto did not know that.
Again. How do you know Yama didn't know that? He may not have known about Renji's bankai, but who says he didn't know about Aizen's strength??

You altered your argument.
Your initial argument stated that Yamamoto's statement about Shunsui means he is probably stronger than Ryuuken =\

It's called transitivity: Kyou > Aizen > Ryuuken. If what Yama said is true (and as we both assert, Aizen was that strong BACK THEN, and IMO Yama KNEW this, then as above with the ">")

It's not valid to assume that Kyouraku is second strongest in Seireitei based on a statement made by someone ignorant of the truth.
We'll never know if he was ignorant of the truth - not soon anyway.

For example, if someone who doesn't know me says I live on earth, it won't make their statement true because... I don't.
The analogy isn't parallel. A better one would be:

Yama: "A martian on Mars lives the furtherst away from Earth."

That's true. Because you living on the moon, ie Aizen in this example, are not as far from the earth as the Martian, ie Kyouraku.

[Undying]

That's why I use "if" and "might" for my posts
Again. How do you know Yama didn't know that? He may not have known about Renji's bankai, but who says he didn't know about Aizen's strength??
Because Aizen just happened to have cheated the whole of Seireite to believing himself someone else and no one knew what is his true bankai or shikai, remember?

No one knew Aizen's true power.

Yamamoto too.

And the earlier evidence.
It's called transitivity: Kyou > Aizen > Ryuuken. If what Yama said is true (and as we both assert, Aizen was that strong BACK THEN, and IMO Yama KNEW this, then as above with the ">")
Yama - and no one else knew of Aizen's power, because he hid it. He said it, no one knew his true abilities.

What are you doing now, arguing against the manga?
We'll never know if he was ignorant of the truth - not soon anyway.
The analogy isn't parallel. A better one would be:
Yama: "A martian on Mars lives the furtherst away from Earth."
That's true. Because you living on the moon, ie Aizen in this example, are not as far from the earth as the Martian, ie Kyouraku.
I make everyone think I live on earth.

But I live on the moon.

Does the statement that I live on the earth true because I made everyone believe it?

No.

Same.

[Wren]

Your posts make me sad Ud =/

[Undying]

Your posts make me sad Ud =/
I voted Kyouraku


---

I saw the tally go up by one for Ryuu when you posted.

LIAR! :P

-Dec



Shut up Decado.

It wasn't me who voted in that post. Really. It was someone else.

I voted earlier.

[Wren]

I voted Kyouraku

Well it seems you convinced people Ryuken got 2 votes lol

He lies. One is Undying's. Look at his spoiler again.

[anubis24354]

Personally I voted for Kyoraku. While you two have theorughly debated the points of both, I still believe that Yama having such a high opinion of him, as well as his captain status, would put him into position to be someone that could take out Ryuken. I'm not saying that Ryuken is a wimp, far from it, he's right up with the captains IMHO, however, I havn't really picked up on anything that would imply he surpasses a captain. Given that he retired his Quincy powers for so long I'd be willing to bet he lost a lot of what potential he had, same as Ichigo's dad. So in the end, I'd go with Kyoraku.


As a side note, Decado and Undying, you've both made me very happy because that sort of debate is what I was hoping the tournament would spark. And also due to the high quality and length you two went to I'm repping both of you. Awesome debate.

[Jay3205]

I think Shunsui is stronger. The hinted rivalry between Ryuken and Ichigo's father would suggest they are not (or were not) very far apart in power. Since Ichigo's dad was quite possibly a captain or at least member of the squads, it's highly unlikely Yamamoto would not notice him due to his power level. Therefore, Yamamoto's statements about Shunsui and Ukitake not being equaled in battle by peers, past or present, would include Ichigo's father. This would mean Ryuken by extension is also not on the level of Shunsui.

Also, I find it highly unlikely that Yamamoto knew about Aizen's strength. For one, anybody who can 1-shot a captain probably has more than 50% of Yamamoto's strength. Secondly, there are more hints/statements pointing towards Aizen tricking everyone than Aizen not tricking everyone. Finally, the captains seem to do very little actual fighting, and there's apparently nobody (prior to arrancar arc) that is strong enough to push any captain to full power except another captain. Considering Yamamoto probably does the least amount of work of the captains, the chance of him witnessing Aizen's full power is pretty low.

[anubis24354]

I think Shunsui is stronger. The hinted rivalry between Ryuken and Ichigo's father would suggest they are not (or were not) very far apart in power. Since Ichigo's dad was quite possibly a captain or at least member of the squads, it's highly unlikely Yamamoto would not notice him due to his power level. Therefore, Yamamoto's statements about Shunsui and Ukitake not being equaled in battle by peers, past or present, would include Ichigo's father. This would mean Ryuken by extension is also not on the level of Shunsui.

Keep in mind that Yama's statement was qualified by him referencing the whole of Soul Society, Ishida was a human and thus not a member of Soul Society.

Finally, the captains seem to do very little actual fighting, and there's apparently nobody (prior to arrancar arc) that is strong enough to push any captain to full power except another captain. Considering Yamamoto probably does the least amount of work of the captains, the chance of him witnessing Aizen's full power is pretty low.

While they may not fight nor have anyone to push them, there is no real indication that they don't still train/engage in training with their troops. Just because one doesn't fight someone their equal does not mean that they can't still become stronger training on their own. It may not be as fast but it is still possible that they just maintained their own strength through self-discipline.

[Undying]

There is also very little to no indication that Yamamoto knew of Isshin's powers.

Or that Isshin and Ryuuken are close in power.

Or that Ryuuken doesn't just happen to have the convenient power to beat Kyouraku.

You see, this vote comes down to which you like more.

@Anubis: lol thanks for the rep, I really enjoyed that btw :p.

Me and Decchan can play this sort of game for ages... only we do it on msn most of the time XD.

[Wren]

There is also very little to no indication that Yamamoto knew of Isshin's powers.

Or that Isshin and Ryuuken are close in power.

Or that Ryuuken doesn't just happen to have the convenient power to beat Kyouraku.

You see, this vote comes down to which you like more.

@Anubis: lol thanks for the rep, I really enjoyed that btw :p.

Me and Decchan can play this sort of game for ages... only we do it on msn most of the time XD.


Clearly a perverted drunk is > a snide a$$hat

Although watching you and dec is pretty entertaining lol

[Zanga]

Getsuga Tenshou is a giant mass of amplified sharpened reiatsu..


Does that mean a Quincy can absorb it?

Same goes for Chad's 'blasts'..

[Undying]

Getsuga Tenshou is a giant mass of amplified sharpened reiatsu..
Does that mean a Quincy can absorb it?
Same goes for Chad's 'blasts'..
Yes, and yes.

[Wren]

If quincy's could absorb reiatsu based attacks such as blasts or kido how could they have all been slaughtered if they could just use shinigami attacks against them?

[Undying]

If quincy's could absorb reiatsu based attacks such as blasts or kido how could they have all been slaughtered if they could just use shinigami attacks against them?
The more condensed a mass of reiatsu, the more difficult it is to absorb it. However as Ishida demonstrated in his post-glove state and as Ryuuken demonstrated when absorbing Uryu's "kido", they are capable of absorbing condensed masses of reiatsu when their skills reach a certain peak.

The Quincy were slaughtered because:

A. It's important to the plot.

B. They probably lacked the necessary skill, as it is hinted that this specific ability is a very rare and powerful ability.

C. No Quincy was on Ryuuken's level - or at least none of those that were killed. There are remaining Quincy, just not a lot, and they are probably a dying race because there are too few.

And of course some Shinigami may have had the convenient ability to block Quincy abilities.

[Zanga]

That and Kidou should do some heavy damage.


But unless you're Sanrei-released, I'm sure there is some sort of 'limit' to how much that can gather in a moment, no matter how strong you are.

Cause to think Ryuuken can simply absorb Vaizard Bankai Ichigo's GT is just ridiculous.

[Undying]

That and Kidou should do some heavy damage.
But unless you're Sanrei-released, I'm sure there is some sort of 'limit' to how much that can gather in a moment, no matter how strong you are.
Cause to think Ryuuken can simply absorb Vaizard Bankai Ichigo's GT is just ridiculous.
Why is it ridiculous? If he has enough power, he should be able to to absorb it.

Possibly the limit applies to how much reiatsu they have.

But regardless, that still doesn't make Ryuuken any weaker than Kyouraku or means that he can't defeat him. Or vice-versa.

[Wren]

True he may be able to absorb it, he may not without any physical contact, but whos to say that Kyoraku cant fight without the use of any kido using pure swordsmanship and tactics.

Ishida was absorbing buildings made of reshi i dont think he can absorb living things, and what chapter was Ryuken absorbing anything?

[Undying]

Somewhere around 200 where he absorbed Ishida's Kido.

Anyway, you're forgetting that Ryuuken also has his own set of tactics and abilities, not to mention his bow. Arrows are difficult to block with, uh, 1200 arrows per minute firing rate.

[Wren]

True, but we dont know the ablilities of Kyoraku's shikai, maybe his abilities are the perfect ones to fight someone at range.

And he is pretty fast from whats been shown.

[Undying]

And Ryuuken isn't fast?

So you see...

Just vote for those you're a fan of :).

[Wren]

They're both too unknown to get a guage of

And you know I did =p

[Seff]

Yes, and SKY had 1000 petals. Bankai Ichigo knocked them all away. ^___^

[Undying]

Yes, and SKY had 1000 petals. Bankai Ichigo knocked them all away. ^___^
Millions*.

And Ichigo is a unique case, don't start applying him to everyone because it just so happens that he has the specialization that it *just* the thing that is required to beat that kind of attack ^_^.

[Seff]

You just need attack speed to beat the attack. Which i'm guessing Shunsui has.

[Undying]

You just need attack speed to beat the attack. Which i'm guessing Shunsui has.
Prove that Shunsui can swing his blades 1200 in a minute to block an oncoming onslaught of arrows, please.

With valid manga material that states that Shunsui is a speed specialist with a special speed increase.

[Jay3205]

Ryuuken hasn't really given an indication that he actually can shoot 1200 arrows per minute. The only reason Ishida can do it is due to the uniqueness of his bow. For all we know, Ryuuken's bow techniques may be the same as gloved Ishida, only with more power behind them.

[Undying]

Who do you think taught Ishida his new bow techniques? Ryuuken.

Can Ryuuken teach someone something he doesn't know?

Especially when he said that he knows "all Quincy techniques and abilities" by inheritance.

[Seff]

Prove that Shunsui can swing his blades 1200 in a minute to block an oncoming onslaught of arrows, please.
With valid manga material that states that Shunsui is a speed specialist with a special speed increase.

Proove that Ryuuken can shoot his arrows 1200 in a minute to cause Shunsui to need to block said arrows, without assuming that Ryuuken simply fires faster than Ishida.
You can provide valid manga scans, too. :)


And seeing as you don't accept implied information. (Yamma saying Shunsui was the next best captain)

You can't provide implied info, either. I want to see a manga scan where Ryuuken actually fires said number of arrows.

[Undying]

Proove that Ryuuken can shoot his arrows 1200 in a minute to cause Shunsui to need to block said arrows, without assuming that Ryuuken simply fires faster than Ishida.
You can provide valid manga scans, too. :)


And seeing as you don't accept implied information. (Yamma saying Shunsui was the next best captain)

You can't provide implied info, either. I want to see a manga scan where Ryuuken actually fires said number of arrows.
:facepalm:

I've already said it.

This comes down to whom you prefer.

Because there's no valid information either way.

You don't need to try and use my words against me 8D.

[Seff]

I know i just felt like being cynical :cm:

But yeah. Well, i voted Shunsui. ^.^

[Undying]

I know i just felt like being cynical :cm:

But yeah. Well, i voted Shunsui. ^.^
:toocool: Same.

But I argued for Ryuuken.

I'm crazy.

[Twister1352]

shunsui.

[h3h3h3]

Shunsui is the shit.

[anubis24354]

Wow, I really got behind on this one. School started back so I'm late, but battle 14 will be up shortly.

BTW, Shunsui wins this one.