Nnoitra V. Ichigo!

[Seff vi Britannia]

Ok people, what do you think would have happened in this battle had Ichigo not been already injured/worn out?

Ichigo has all the strength he showed against previous espada, including the extended mask time, the seemingly "upgraded" bankai due to resolve boostage, and the massive power he showed against Ulquiorra.

Nnoitra has everything we've seen from him so far, and he also has a release, that for now, we'll assume increases his power by X10.

Nnoitra also has the "strongest Hierro" according to a recent spoiler, but wait for the chapter to come out first. ^.^


They are fighting in Hueco Mundo. Ichigo dosen't get Plotkai (though he may have Ogichi in the circumstances, i guess. But try and keep this to normal Ichigo v. Nnoitra.)

[Decado]

Ichigo has all the strength he showed against previous espada, including the extended mask time, the seemingly "upgraded" bankai due to resolve boostage, and the massive power he showed against Ulquiorra.
It only scraped him past Grimmjow, and that too with the extra "resolve" of power. At that time he DID have a portion of the mask on, so he was still Vaizard, not just 'upgraded Bankai.'

Therefore against Nnoitora, even at his max that he was against Grimmjow, he would have an even-to-losing fight against unreleased Nnoitora.

If Nnoitora released it'd be over.

-----

@smacharia8: Amusing, but in this case counted as spam. Stick to the topic please.
/post deleted

[Zanga]

I actually think Ichigo could've done better against Grimmjaw had he not taken those 5 pikes to the back defending Inoue, since 1 of those things destroyed that giant pillar.

But that's under the assumption that the mask involves some concentration in which pain can easily interfere with.

So under that assumption, I'd say Ichigo would certainly give Noitra a run for his money or even coming out almost as his equal. I don't know why, it just feels as though Nnoitra's power isn't too far off from Grimm's.

But again, these are just assumptions.

[smach]

yea, i'm with Zanga. unlike grimjow, noitora seems like the bitchy type that cowers in a small instant, n also shows off just as quick.

[Decado]

I don't know why, it just feels as though Nnoitra's power isn't too far off from Grimm's.

It's because he was knocking an injured Ichigo around with his weapon. Stupidest thing I've seen. All it did was show that Ichigo could still take some sort of damage from an Espada of a higher level than the one he just beat.

Nevertheless, my previous post did not include Nnoitora's strongest Hierro trait, as I didn't think I needed it.

But now that we do know it is true, that just means that a full powered Vaizard Ichigo (time length means little here) couldn't penetrate the 4th Espada's Hierro (Ulquiorra of course) ... let alone merely tear a bit of his sleeves.

Nnoitora is only one rank lower, and yet has the strongest Hierro

[Undying]

It's because he was knocking an injured Ichigo around with his weapon. Stupidest thing I've seen. All it did was show that Ichigo could still take some sort of damage from an Espada of a higher level than the one he just beat.
Nevertheless, my previous post did not include Nnoitora's strongest Hierro trait, as I didn't think I needed it.
But now that we do know it is true, that just means that a full powered Vaizard Ichigo (time length means little here) couldn't penetrate the 4th Espada's Hierro (Ulquiorra of course) ... let alone merely tear a bit of his sleeves.
Nnoitora is only one rank lower, and yet has the strongest Hierro
And he is also the strongest Espada.

And he also thinks he proves his strength by challenging a half-dead fighter.

And he is apparently a misogynist. Etc etc.

Don't take what Espada say too literally.

[Klavier Gavin]

Grimmjow seemed like a better fighter to me than Noitora, so it' quite likely he has the strongest hierro which actually gives him an advantage over Grimmjow. Aeroniero was given Number 9 just for his ability to consume other hollows. That doesn't seem he can defeat Yami who's the 10th Espada.

Zaraki vs Noitora - No fear of pain vs Strongest hierro
Byakuya vs Zomari - Battle of numbers (50 vs millions)
Mayuri vs Syazel - Brains vs brains
Hitsugaya vs Luppi - Battle of numbers again (8 vs the all moisture in the air)
Ishida vs Iceringer - Speed vs speed

It's pretty obvious that similar characters fight each other. I won't be surprised if Noitora has the strongest hierro.

[Decado]

And he is also the strongest Espada.
He said he "deserved to be #1"

Don't take what Espada say too literally.
I didn't even need to use the Hierro statement. I added it as a further point due to boredom. Nnoitora still wins.

[Undying]

He said he "deserved to be #1"
So I take it that #1 can be weakest? ;)
I didn't even need to use the Hierro statement. I added it as a further point due to boredom. Nnoitora still wins.
Naturally. Ichigo should have lost against Grimmjow, that final "I'ma save ma grrl!" bit really doesn't count as power...

[Decado]

So I take it that #1 can be weakest? ;)

Of course you can't believe what he says about where he SHOULD be. That's his intepretation. He never said he IS the strongest Espada.

But he does state something about his own traits, which is the Hierro. That's not his intepretation of ordering of ranks, etc. It's something he possesses.

[Undying]

Of course you can't believe what he says about where he SHOULD be. That's his intepretation. He never said he IS the strongest Espada.
But he does state something about his own traits, which is the Hierro. That's not his intepretation of ordering of ranks, etc. It's something he possesses.
Says he, who got protected by his Fraccion from Chad's attack. What does that tell you? Either that Tesla is gay for Nnoitora (we always protect the one's we love... at least if we're relatively good people), or that Nnoitora isn't "stronger" and his Ierro isn't "strongest", either (he was going to prove that he's strongest, that's why he attacked Chad and Ichigo).

And uh, he DID say he was strongest Espada.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-263-page-10.html

He quite clearly states, "I am the strongest Espada".

There goes the strongest Ierro... bye bye.

[Decado]

Scanlation issues then. I don't recall him ever swearing on that page either.

Says he, who got protected by his Fraccion from Chad's attack. What does that tell you?
It tells me that you didn't remember that Chad gave Nnoitora his best shot, and Nnoitora didn't get hurt in the slightest: "is that it?"
/end chad

Therefore, Chad may not be 5th Espada level weak either.

He quite clearly states, "I am the strongest Espada".

There goes the strongest Ierro... bye bye.
lol? If he really did mean that, that only goes to prove that he thinks he is the STRONGEST because he has the strongest Hierro.

That doesn't let go of the strongest Hierro theory at all. In fact, it entails it.

[Esca]

Nnoitora is arrogant, which is why he states he's the strongest Espada, but saying he has the strongest Hierro reflects more on his skill than his personality. He could have said anything but that if he were lying so I doubt he is, it wouldn't get him anywhere while stating he's the strongest Espada serves to boost his ego.

[sweeter]

Scanlation issues then.
I don't think it is. I checked several scanlations and they say the same thing.

I think that it was purposefully done to generate hype - get people to wonder and discuss whether this could actually be the Primera and if he was, how he could look so goofy. It worked.

In retrospect, we are able to see what kind of character Nnoitra is - a cocky, sexist, all-around bastard who steps on babies' heads.

It wouldn't really be much of a surprise if he was being conceited and felt himself to be the strongest Espada because he had the strongest Hierro among them.

And uh, he DID say he was strongest Espada.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...3-page-10.html

He quite clearly states, "I am the strongest Espada".
The parallels during the last two fights aren't exactly hard to miss. Byakuya vs. fastest Espada. Mayuri vs. smartest Espada. Now, Zaraki vs. toughest Espada. The monologues during the actual battles contain the statements/facts that should be taken to heart.

(:

[smach]

from all we've seen so far, noitora is like the WWE bad guys who use illegal tactics to win their battles.

like how the irish guy hits ppl with his stick, noitora has:
- used szayel's knowledge...to cheaply beat halibel
- defeated chad, a human whose new powers are around the range of ur average bankai
- kicked around a worn out ichigo

he's done all these in the name of how strong he is, how he deserves to be ranked first, and how women shouldn't be accepted into the espada.

so even when he starts rambling about how amazing his hierro is, i just look back at his actions n let them speak for themselves. i also keep in mind the fact that zaraki's slash on noitora is almost the equivalent of ichigo's shikai, which doldoni could easily deflect with one kick.

n after comparing his bitchass moves n tactics to his self-praising retorts, i just arrive to the conclusion that he's a *****-ass espada who'll celebrate any & every victory he can get, regardless of how small it really is. noitora is basically like the kiss-ass of the class, who wants credit for kills rather than ability/determination/etcetra.

n with all that crap out of my system, i bid farewell to you all and send my ass to bed.

yours truly
~smach~

[Undying]

Scanlation issues then. I don't recall him ever swearing on that page either.
It tells me that you didn't remember that Chad gave Nnoitora his best shot, and Nnoitora didn't get hurt in the slightest: "is that it?"
/end chad
But Tesla still protected him. Why? And, prove that Chad's first hit was his best shot, pl0x?
Therefore, Chad may not be 5th Espada level weak either.
Chad is as strong as the 5th Espada? Right...

I never said that -.-"

I meant he may not be as weak as we first thought
lol? If he really did mean that, that only goes to prove that he thinks he is the STRONGEST because he has the strongest Hierro.
That doesn't let go of the strongest Hierro theory at all. In fact, it entails it.
"I am strongest! I have the strongest skin! I have the biggest sword! I have the longest tongue!"

All statements made by a cocky person who claims to be strongest while being ranked 5th strongest (or are you saying that he is stronger than Ulqiorra? Nice one!).

Seriously -_-'. Nnoitora saying anything is to be taken with a grain of salt. Screw that. With a whole friggin' truck of it.
The parallels during the last two fights aren't exactly hard to miss. Byakuya vs. fastest Espada. Mayuri vs. smartest Espada. Now, Zaraki vs. toughest Espada. The monologues during the actual battles contain the statements/facts that should be taken to heart.
I didn't really want to bring this up since I don't like the parallels between Soul Society and Hueco Mundo, but since you brought it up... it actually supports me, since, well, Zaraki also said he's the strongest captain.

So that means he's stronger than Yamamoto.

:)

[sweeter]

I didn't really want to bring this up since I don't like the parallels between Soul Society and Hueco Mundo, but since you brought it up... it actually supports me, since, well, Zaraki also said he's the strongest captain.

So that means he's stronger than Yamamoto.
I don't think you understood what I was trying to say.

We agree that what the characters proclaim aren't necessarily set in stone, as it can be disproven in retrospect. These kind of statements are meant to incite hype and discussion. However, there are also statements which are primarily for the reader's benefit and information.

The trick is using common sense to determine whether the author is trying to do the former or the latter.

Exhibit A: Statements to generate hype and excitement

During the Soul Society arc, Zaraki proclaimed that he was the strongest Captain. We now know that isn't true. So why was it stated before? To generate hype, to get people excited. In retrospect, it makes sense that Zaraki said that even if it wasn't true since he's a cocky, sadistic, delusional pirate wannabe who feels that his expertise in hack-and-slash makes up for all the the pussy areas of combat where he's terribly lacking.

In a relatively more recent chapter, Nnoitra proclaimed that he was the strongest Espada. We now know that isn't true. Again, it was said to get people discussing how a creepy malnourished guy could possibly be the Primera. In retrospect, it makes sense that Nnoitra would spew that kind of crap since he's a cocky, sexist, all-around bastard who steps on babies' heads.

Exhibit B: Exposition for the reader's benefit and information

The author making Zomari and Nnoitra specifically say that they have the fastest Sonido or the toughest Hierro are more probably for the reader's benefit. These are statements of fact meant to emphasize certain characters' unique strengths and specialties. The parallels are glaringly obvious.

You don't have to agree, but I'd really like it if you understood exactly what I was trying to say.

(:

[Undying]

I don't think you understood what I was trying to say.
We agree that what the characters proclaim aren't necessarily set in stone, as it can be disproven in retrospect. These kind of statements are meant to incite hype and discussion. However, there are also statements which are primarily for the reader's benefit and information.
The trick is using common sense to determine whether the author is trying to do the former or the latter.
Exhibit A: Statements to generate hype and excitement
During the Soul Society arc, Zaraki proclaimed that he was the strongest Captain. We now know that isn't true. So why was it stated before? To generate hype, to get people excited. In retrospect, it makes sense that Zaraki said that even if it wasn't true since he's a cocky, sadistic, delusional pirate wannabe who feels that his expertise in hack-and-slash makes up for all the the pussy areas of combat where he's terribly lacking.
In a relatively more recent chapter, Nnoitra proclaimed that he was the strongest Espada. We now know that isn't true. Again, it was said to get people discussing how a creepy malnourished guy could possibly be the Primera. In retrospect, it makes sense that Nnoitra would spew that kind of crap since he's a cocky, sexist, all-around bastard who steps on babies' heads.
Exhibit B: Exposition for the reader's benefit and information
The author making Zomari and Nnoitra specifically say that they have the fastest Sonido or the toughest Hierro are more probably for the reader's benefit. These are statements of fact meant to emphasize certain characters' unique strengths and specialties. The parallels are glaringly obvious.
You don't have to agree, but I'd really like it if you understood exactly what I was trying to say.
(:
Statement A: Zomari stating that he has the "fastest Sonido".

Using what passes for common sense with you, we take it as true, because, well, he wasn't saying it to incite hype, was he?

Now let's review.

A. Byakuya could keep track of Zomari's "clones". B. Byakuya had a technique that allowed him to dodge Zomari's supposedly fastest technique (which, cough cough cough, is fastest in the entire ten Espada! Fear him!). C. Byakuya lost track of Ichigo. D. Ulqiorra is as fast, or faster than Ichigo in bankai (which Byakuya couldn't keep track of.

Using what passes for common sense for you, we determine that Zomari is still faster, because the above somehow leads to the conclusion that Zomari's words are more than empty boasting to incite hype in (one of Kubo's favorite) character battle.

Using real common sense, we determine that what Zomari was BSing and that he doesn't have the fastest Sonido.

Edn.

Returning to Nnoitora.

Nnoitora states he is "strongest". Half of us assume he is indeed strongest (following what passes for common sense with them).

Then we return to Nnoitora now (ranked 5th). He states that his skin is toughest among the Espada. Reminds you of something we recently saw? Just in case it doesn't, I'll refresh your memory: Zomari's "fastest Sonido! RAWR".

So, using once again your "common sense" (or lack thereof), we determine that Nnoitora's words are true, despite several rather glaring hints they are no more than empty boasting like Zomari's.

Those hints are: 1, he's fighting the dude Ichigo couldn't cut. Now Zaraki can't cut Nnoitora. Shock and awe, eh? 2. He already said he was strongest and his Fraccion still felt the need to defend him (despite him allegedly having a Ierro tougher than - currently most demonstrated - Ulqiorra's). 3. Zomari said he had the speediest step, but we already saw how that little boast is about as truthful as Hitsugaya's bankai crumbling after the petals going away (which the author took care to draw the opposite of, just a few weeks after that).

Seriously.

I understand what you're saying, but you're simply wrong :).

[sweeter]

A. Byakuya could keep track of Zomari's "clones". B. Byakuya had a technique that allowed him to dodge Zomari's supposedly fastest technique (which, cough cough cough, is fastest in the entire ten Espada! Fear him!). C. Byakuya lost track of Ichigo. D. Ulqiorra is as fast, or faster than Ichigo in bankai (which Byakuya couldn't keep track of.
Are you sure that what Zomari was able to show was the fastest he could go?

Nnoitora states he is "strongest". Half of us assume he is indeed strongest (following what passes for common sense with them).
The fact that some people assumed that he is indeed strongest and some otherwise supports my point. It incited discussion and debate.

Those hints are: 1, he's fighting the dude Ichigo couldn't cut. Now Zaraki can't cut Nnoitora. Shock and awe, eh?
Well, the fight is only beginning, isn't it?

2. He already said he was strongest and his Fraccion still felt the need to defend him (despite him allegedly having a Ierro tougher than - currently most demonstrated - Ulqiorra's).
Tesla's gay for Nnoitra.

but we already saw how that little boast is about as truthful as Hitsugaya's bankai crumbling after the petals going away (which the author took care to draw the opposite of, just a few weeks after that).
You know, this might just turn out like the time when you said that Zaraki vs. Tousen and Komamura never happened and then, you know...

(:

[diamondedge]

@Undy: While I'd normally agree I think you're a bit short on facts on few areas to accuse anyone of being wrong.

As for the endless speed debate - Grimmjow kept track of Ichigo in his bankai mode. Because of that are are you implying that he has faster sonido than Zomari?

Has Ulquiorras Ichigos or Grimmjows speeds been able to generate not only afterimages, but clones that could attack and were attacked in return?

By the basic laws of good old physics, the fastest type of movement is where something moves so fast, that it gives the feeling that the object is not actually leaving it's original position, but constantly remaining in one place. And we do know for certain he was moving.

[Undying]

Are you sure that what Zomari was able to show was the fastest he could go?
Do you have one good reason to assume that the statement "five clones is my limit" is wrong? Especially since he didn't go more than 5 clones?

And one good reason to assume that Mr. "I'm going to kill you ASAP" didn't use everything he had?

The fact that some people assumed that he is indeed strongest and some otherwise supports my point. It incited discussion and debate.
Yes, it supports the part where you said that what characters say and what characters are capable of are two entirely different things. It most certainly does not support the part where you repeatedly claim something is right when it's not.
Well, the fight is only beginning, isn't it?
Which further supports my point - Ichigo couldn't cut Zaraki at the beginning too. Then "powaa up" and voila, he cuts Mr. Uncutable.

Same here. Therefore, if Nnoitora has "toughest Ierro", that means Zaraki can cut everyone above him, as well. Are you sure you are arguing that Zaraki is stronger than Primera Espada?
Tesla's gay for Nnoitra.
/le cough

Proof please.
You know, this might just turn out like the time when you said that Zaraki vs. Tousen and Komamura never happened and then, you know...
It never happened - all you showed me was a list with Japanese Kanji. Get a credible (scanlation team, be it Ju-Ni, Maximum7, or anyone that's reliable and posted more than one chapter) translation to support you. Otherwise, I can go smear kanji all over the place and claim Kubo sent me a Uarahra-style message about the future of Bleach.
As for the endless speed debate - Grimmjow kept track of Ichigo in his bankai mode. Because of that are are you implying that he has faster sonido than Zomari?
And why not? And also, Grimmjow was able to keep track of - not outrun.
Has Ulquiorras Ichigos or Grimmjows speeds been able to generate not only afterimages, but clones that could attack and were attacked in return?
Has Zomari attacked from multiple directions? Has Zomari eluded Byakuya's vision?
By the basic laws of good old physics, the fastest type of movement is where something moves so fast, that it gives the feeling that the object is not actually leaving it's original position, but constantly remaining in one place. And we do know for certain he was moving.
Which still doesn't prove he has the fastest Sonido, only that he has a nifty technique to make Kage Bunshins. Le gasp.

[diamondedge]

Has Zomari attacked from multiple directions? Has Zomari eluded Byakuya's vision?
You haven't answered my question.

Which still doesn't prove he has the fastest Sonido, only that he has a nifty technique to make Kage Bunshins. Le gasp.
Prove he doesn't. I gave my reasons why I think so, I do not see yours.

[Undying]

You haven't answered my question.
I have. In the Jewish way. Answer a question with another question. Zomari has done none of the things that other, faster people, did. He only created clones (which weren't tangible to being with, le gasp, Utsuemi uses a similar form, in case you haven't noticed). Being in multiple places and actually making Byakuya lose sight of you > creating clones that Byakuya can replicate easily enough.
Prove he doesn't. I gave my reasons why I think so, I do not see yours.
Ichigo/Ulqiorra/Byakuya argument. I do believe I've stated it enough times. Ichigo has demonstrated more impressive speeds than Zomari. Also, the positive claim bears the burden of proof - all you've proved is that Zomari creates Kage Bunshins (like Byakuya does, and Ichigo is faster than Byakuya, so fast that Byakuya could not see him, a problem not repeated in Zomari's case).

[sweeter]

Do you have one good reason to assume that the statement "five clones is my limit" is wrong? Especially since he didn't go more than 5 clones?

Exactly. He said that 5 clones was his limit. The most number of clones that he was shown having simultaneously is 3.

And one good reason to assume that Mr. "I'm going to kill you ASAP" didn't use everything he had?
He didn't use max speed to kill Byakuya. He used his release.

Same here. Therefore, if Nnoitora has "toughest Ierro", that means Zaraki can cut everyone above him, as well.
Not really. Espada ranked higher than Nnoitra may have slightly weaker Hierro than him, but grossly outmatch him in other areas, such as speed, intelligence, or fashion sense.

Are you sure you are arguing that Zaraki is stronger than Primera Espada?
Wouldn't dream of it.

/le cough

Proof please.
I was kidding. Well, not really.

It's a Fraccion's job. To support their masters even when unnecessary.

It never happened - all you showed me was a list with Japanese Kanji. Get a credible (scanlation team, be it Ju-Ni, Maximum7, or anyone that's reliable and posted more than one chapter) translation to support you. Otherwise, I can go smear kanji all over the place and claim Kubo sent me a Uarahra-style message about the future of Bleach.
There was katakana alongside the kanji. Anyone can understand what it means by Wiki-ing katakana. You can download the raw straight from Ju-Ni's site, and I'm sure we'll be informed when they finish scanlating it.

(:

[diamondedge]

ONLY created clones? Wrong.

Zomari is able to create the clones because of what I stated in above post. The fastest kind of speed known to man so far. If you wish to argue against what has been proven and written down to every physics book, be my guest. :)

He does not generate clones like Kage Bunshin you bring up. He MOVES so fast he leaves the clone behind. That is a major difference. That is something NO one has done so far, save for Yourichi and Byakuya himself.

And if SS facts were still valid, none of the captains would scratch Espada, yet alone walk over them like certain already did. ;)

[Undying]

Exactly. He said that 5 clones was his limit. The most number of clones that he was shown having simultaneously is 3.
4*. Including himself, 5. Edn.
He didn't use max speed to kill Byakuya. He used his release.
He did. When Byakuya dodged using a similar technique, he released, which was about as useful.
Not really. Espada ranked higher than Nnoitra may have slightly weaker Hierro than him, but grossly outmatch him in other areas, such as speed, intelligence, or fashion sense.
Then Zaraki can cut the Primera Espada, when Ichigo with mask on (much more than Zaraki's equal in cutting power) couldn't scratch the 4th one.

Congratulations.
Wouldn't dream of it.
But that's what you're doing... So... either stop trying to hold both ends of the stick, of just stop.
I was kidding. Well, not really.

It's a Fraccion's job. To support their masters even when unnecessary.

Grimmjow and his pals disagree with you, heartily...
There was katakana alongside the kanji. Anyone can understand what it means by Wiki-ing katakana. You can download the raw straight from Ju-Ni's site, and I'm sure we'll be informed when they finish scanlating it.
So in the end, you have nothing.

Kthxbai.

When you have evidence, come back. Until then... Kubo just sent me a message about how Bleach will end. And Zaraki is gay for Ikkaku.

Oh and... Wiki is written by rabid fanboys who think that Hitsugaya loses his bankai when the petals go, even though it was quite clearly shown not to be the case.

So yeah...

ONLY created clones? Wrong.

Zomari is able to create the clones because of what I stated in above post. The fastest kind of speed known to man so far. If you wish to argue against what has been proven and written down to every physics book, be my guest. :)
To man, not to manga :). Unless you want to argue that a 4-year-old kid can carry a 100Kg, 2m-tall man UP skyscrapers... Be my guest? lol
He does not generate clones like Kage Bunshin you bring up. He MOVES so fast he leaves the clone behind. That is a major difference. That is something NO one has done so far, save for Yourichi and Byakuya himself.
And Ichigo was and IS faster than Byakuya. Edn.

And if SS facts were still valid, none of the captains would scratch Espada, yet alone walk over them like certain already did. ;)
Huh? WTF? Soul Society arc is perfectly valid, stop removing known evidence for the sake of supporting random claims. Just in case you hadn't noticed, none of the victories in Soul Society (save for Ichigo VS Ikkaku/Zaraki) was actually a victory because the character in question was SUPERIOR to their enemy - they got convenient power-ups.

Ichigo VS Renji - convenient revealing of the ultimate uber ultra Kemhameha wave the Getsuga Tenshou.

Ichigo VS Byakuya - it just so happens Ichigo has one of the few known materials to beat Byakuya's bankai.

Ichigo VS... no one really. The only two people Ichigo beat by being superior/equal to were Ikkaku (by being a faster and better swordsman) and Zaraki (by equaling him in sheer power).

[sweeter]

4*. Including himself, 5. Edn.
These are the pages I was talking about when I said that the most clones he was shown having simultaneously was three - Ch. 299, p. 15 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-299-page-15.html), 17 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-299-page-17.html), 18 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-299-page-17.html).

Maybe you could show the page where Zomari simultaneously used 5 clones in the manga.

Then Zaraki can cut the Primera Espada when Ichigo with mask on (much more than Zaraki's equal in cutting power)
SS levels don't really apply now.

Grimmjow and his pals disagree with you, heartily...
They kind of followed Grimmjow where they were unnecessary. Tesla is more loyal, protective type. It's been shown both present time and in the flashbacks, so his actions are understandable.

And at least 2 of the top 3 Espada (Stark+Lilinette, Halibel+girls) have fraccion even if they should be strong enough not to have them.

But that's what you're doing...
No, I'm saying that Zomari having the fastest Sonido/Nnoitra having the toughest Hierro among the Espada is fact.

I've lost interest explaining it now.

When you have evidence, come back.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w189/xsweeterthanchocolatex/win.gif

I already have evidence. You just stubbornly refuse to accept it.

Really, now. I hoped you were a bigger man than that.

And I think I'll just leave it at that.

(:

[Undying]

:facepalm:

"SS levels don't apply" - bullocks, kthx. If you're denying that, don't bother trying to sound serious, because you aren't.

A raw scan of the Databook - bullocks, I can't read it, it doesn't count as evidence, kthx. And I don't have any legitimate source confirming you're right in your random claims.

No, I'm saying that Zomari having the fastest Sonido/Nnoitra having the toughest Hierro among the Espada is fact.

I've lost interest explaining it now.
So If Zaraki can cut Nnoitora, he can cut Primera Espada... :cm:

Anyway, I'm too bored with your endless claims for "common sense" to continue.

Ktxhbai.

[sweeter]

A raw scan of the Databook - bullocks, I can't read it, it doesn't count as evidence
I'm sorry, but I just have to say that that is the most ridiculous and funniest and failest excuse I've ever heard.

(:

[diamondedge]

Huh? WTF? Soul Society arc is perfectly valid, stop removing known evidence for the sake of supporting random claims. Just in case you hadn't noticed, none of the victories in Soul Society (save for Ichigo VS Ikkaku/Zaraki) was actually a victory because the character in question was SUPERIOR to their enemy - they got convenient power-ups.
Oh really now.

In Soul Society arc Ichigo took down Zaraki with mere shikai. Power of shikai that is 5-10 times greater from the power of his bankai, yet alone the vaizard form which BARELY beat 6th Espada. Zaraki with his skill is taking on 5th, and is holding his own.

That is the Soul Society math, right? :whatevah:

And I can't believe you actually still believe power levels of minor characters can be measured through main character, especially if they have to save a damsel in distress in shonen anime.

Another case, SS Mayuri > Szayel, while in SS Ishida > Mayuri, when Ishida along with dozen of other people did jack sh!t to Szayel.

Ishida has also grown stronger after the time he fought Mayuri. But NO! let us use the acts that were done 200 chapters ago, the one we have recently got are wrong!

No, SS logic FAILS MISERABLE here.
If those facts applied, Zaraki wouldn't even stand next to Nnoitora, yet alone play the game of strength. After all, he was leveled with the ground by newbie shikai user in SS.

Yes, SS is EVIDENCE. But it's not LATEST evidence. It is over, it passed and things are different now.

Ichigo VS Renji - convenient revealing of the ultimate uber ultra Kemhameha wave the Getsuga Tenshou.

Ichigo VS Byakuya - it just so happens Ichigo has one of the few known materials to beat Byakuya's bankai.

If I am not mistaken, we are talking about Zaraki and Nnoitora here. I only brought up the others for the speed debate, which is what you turned it into no longer is. And again, Ichigo vs? ...

[Undying]

Oh really now.
In Soul Society arc Ichigo took down Zaraki with mere shikai. Power of shikai that is 5-10 times greater from the power of his bankai, yet alone the vaizard form which BARELY beat 6th Espada. Zaraki with his skill is taking on 5th, and is holding his own.
Is powerless against Nnoitora*.
That is the Soul Society math, right? :whatevah:
No, it's the math you invent to support your argument...
And I can't believe you actually still believe power levels of minor characters can be measured through main character, especially if they have to save a damsel in distress in shonen anime.
I'm not, I'm following what I have, not what you speculate.
Another case, SS Mayuri > Szayel, while in SS Ishida > Mayuri, when Ishida along with dozen of other people did jack sh!t to Szayel.
Ishida + sanrei glove removed (which increased his power exponentially, cough cough cough! Convenient power up! Hello?). Ishida + with super power > Mayuri. Szayel, and everyone else to boot. Not to mention that Ishida beat Mayuri in a power-fight, not in a brains fight...

So yeah, Soul Society logic works... unless some people fail to see obvious points...
Ishida has also grown stronger after the time he fought Mayuri. But NO! let us use the acts that were done 200 chapters ago, the one we have recently got are wrong!
Actually he had grown weaker... in fact, he lost all his powers and had to be given them back, which may or may not have reduced his overall power. Also, let us not forget that Ishida does not have the ability to use Glove-power-up here.
No, SS logic FAILS MISERABLE here.
No, it works. Unless of course you insist screwing with already screwed-up things, then yes, it fails... along with everything else.
If those facts applied, Zaraki wouldn't even stand next to Nnoitora, yet alone play the game of strength. After all, he was leveled with the ground by newbie shikai user in SS.
A newbie shikai user who is the main protagonist... and Zaraki is currently being toyed with by Nnoitora. If you call not being able to cut someone and looking worried "holding their own" or "beating", then sorry, I can't argue seriously with you. Zaraki doesn't stand a chance against Nnoitora until he gets a power up next chapter. Until then... Soul Society Zaraki < Nnoitora.
Yes, SS is EVIDENCE. But it's not LATEST evidence. It is over, it passed and things are different now.
No they aren't, not until they change anyway :). Zaraki is losing to unreleased, post-two fights Nnoitora, while Nnoitora is not even trying to look serious.
If I am not mistaken, we are talking about Zaraki and Nnoitora here. I only brought up the others for the speed debate, which is what you turned it into no longer is. And again, Ichigo vs? ...
Ichigo VS anyone except Zaraki was always a victory by convenient means, end of story.

So in other words, you're trying to prove that Zarkai beat Nnoitora while he's losing. I love it.

@Sweeter: Do I know what's written in there? No. Kthx. As long as I don't have anyone I can trust (mostly) about the translation, for all I know it says "sweeter said that Hitsugaya loses his bankai with the petals... even though it was shown otherwise! Never listen to her."

So yeah...

[sweeter]

"sweeter said that Hitsugaya loses his bankai with the petals... even though it was shown otherwise! Never listen to her."
:kitty:

Whatever you say, sir - I succumb. You're the boss.

(:

[h3h3h3]

Vizard-Ichigo can probably cut Nnoitra and so will Zaraki in a few chapters. And Undy if he has the strongest hierro yes Zaraki can cut the primera.

[diamondedge]

No, it's the math you invent to support your argument...
I reject SS evidence to HM arc. I think the above statement it's what you're doing.

I'm not, I'm following what I have, not what you speculate.
If it's just a speculation, why can't you counter it with solid evidence, but instead you answer my question with another question?

I gave my reasons you refuse to quote and respond to. That is not my problem.

Ishida + sanrei glove removed (which increased his power exponentially, cough cough cough! Convenient power up! Hello?). Ishida + with super power > Mayuri. Szayel, and everyone else to boot. Not to mention that Ishida beat Mayuri in a power-fight, not in a brains fight...
Your point? Ishida still lost to Szayel, with the help of bankai level shinigami, in all his glory, while Mayuri who in SS lost to Ishida had no problems with Szayel.

Convenient power up, now who is twisting facts to suit his own argument?

In both cases, it was a battle of intelligence against Ishida. Where Mayuri failed, Szayel succeeded. If Ishida can beat Mayuri who is INT, he should be able to beat Szayel who is also INT based on what you're saying.

And "I can shoot two thousand arrows in second & stuff" is not something what ishida was able to do in SS, so no, he has not grown weaker.

Actually he had grown weaker... in fact, he lost all his powers and had to be given them back, which may or may not have reduced his overall power.
Where is stated that after loosing Quincy powers, they're weaker once you obtain them again?

A newbie shikai user who is the main protagonist... and Zaraki is currently being toyed with by Nnoitora. If you call not being able to cut someone and looking worried "holding their own" or "beating", then sorry, I can't argue seriously with you.
We also thought Szayel is wiping the floor with mayuri once we saw him kneeling on the floor and Szayel with evil gin.

Can you actually say Mayuri struggled with Szayel?

Until we are shown the full picture, this is your wishful thinking and speculation with ignoring the past facts. :) because of that, I can't argue seriously with you. ^^

So in other words, you're trying to prove that Zarkai beat Nnoitora while he's losing. I love it.
No, I'm not arguing for anything, so stop twisting my words. I'm merely saying why what we learned in Soul Society doesn't apply for ANYTHING we have seen from captains in HM so far.

[Undying]

I reject SS evidence to HM arc. I think the above statement it's what you're doing.
You're rejected nothing...
If it's just a speculation, why can't you counter it with solid evidence, but instead you answer my question with another question?
Because such is the Jewish way.
I gave my reasons you refuse to quote and respond to. That is not my problem.
I already answered everything... You're applying random points that support your argument with no consistency, such as suddenly claiming that Ishida with power-up who can absorb buildings is weaker than an Ishida who can just fire 1200 arrows.
Your point? Ishida still lost to Szayel, with the help of bankai level shinigami,
Without bankai*.
in all his glory, while Mayuri who in SS lost to Ishida had no problems with Szayel.
No problems? Mayuri was kicking Uryu's sorry ass without even using his shikai. Uryu WITH a super-power-up that allowed him to absorb whole BUILDINGS beat Mayuri with two shots. Don't confuse with Ishida now and Ishida with power-up. Yeah, if Ishida could just take his glove right now against Szayel, he would not need Renji or Mayuri.
Convenient power up, now who is twisting facts to suit his own argument?
In both cases, it was a battle of intelligence against Ishida. Where Mayuri failed, Szayel succeeded. If Ishida can beat Mayuri who is INT, he should be able to beat Szayel who is also INT based on what you're saying.
PARDON? Battle of intelligence? Where was it battle of intelligence, when Mayuri didn't even wants to fight Ishida? He didn't care about him, interested ONLY in Orihime. Szayel was intersted IN ISHIDA. The fights are completely not alike. For starters, Mayuri tried to overpower Ishida. Ishida lost. Then Ishida got a convenient power-up not available to him afterwards.

Mayuri beat Ishida then and would have beat him again, so don't start on it, even. Every single victory had some sort of a convenient power-up involved.
And "I can shoot two thousand arrows in second & stuff" is not something what ishida was able to do in SS, so no, he has not grown weaker.
Can Ishida now absorb buildings, or fire arrows that can create holes in bankai-level people? No. Kthxbai.

Ishida had grown weaker. Edn.
Where is stated that after loosing Quincy powers, they're weaker once you obtain them again?
Where is it stated they are stronger? Nowhere, thx. Because it isn't, and Ishida doesn't have any more superpower power-ups, either. That's the only reason he's losing to Szayel, he has no more power-ups. He's weak, and that's the end of it.
We also thought Szayel is wiping the floor with mayuri once we saw him kneeling on the floor and Szayel with evil gin.
Uh, what does that have to do with anything I've said so far? We've seen Zaraki during another fight, and we thought they were fighting equally. Then Nnoitora comes around stating that he has toughest Ierro and... everyone believes him. Based on your logic, his statement is bull. Is it?
Can you actually say Mayuri struggled with Szayel?
Who is there to say? Maybe his organs hurt or something. Either way, he didn't struggle. Zaraki was shown twice fighting with Nnoitora outside of "his" chapter of the fight. Once we thought the fight was even, then Nnoitora suddenly has the toughest Ierro...
Until we are shown the full picture, this is your wishful thinking and speculation with ignoring the past facts. :) because of that, I can't argue seriously with you. ^^
Said the person who would continually ignore stated situations -_-.
No, I'm not arguing for anything, so stop twisting my words. I'm merely saying why what we learned in Soul Society doesn't apply for ANYTHING we have seen from captains in HM so far.
Oh yes it does :whatevah: .

For example.

Ishida is a loser.

Ichigo can't win without power-ups.

Zaraki is weaker than Ichigo until he gets power-up.

And when a character says something about someone (themselves included), taking it as true is, well...

[Wren]

Depends, can his Getsuga ignore Nnoi's skin the way magic ignores plate armor?

[diamondedge]

You're rejected nothing...

Yes, SS is EVIDENCE. But it's not LATEST evidence. It is over, it passed and things are different now.

I already answered everything... You're applying random points that support your argument with no consistency, such as suddenly claiming that Ishida with power-up who can absorb buildings is weaker than an Ishida who can just fire 1200 arrows.
Please quote where I said that.
What I said is that Ishida lost to Szayel and beat Mayuri, while Mayuri beat Szayel and lost to Ishida.

Without bankai*.
That is why I purposefully used "bankai level shinigami".:rolleye09

No problems? Mayuri was kicking Uryu's sorry ass without even using his shikai. Uryu WITH a super-power-up that allowed him to absorb whole BUILDINGS beat Mayuri with two shots. Don't confuse with Ishida now and Ishida with power-up. Yeah, if Ishida could just take his glove right now against Szayel, he would not If we are tneed Renji or Mayuri.
Worded wrongly, mean to say that Mayuri didn't have problems with Szayel, not Ishida.

PARDON? Battle of intelligence? Where was it battle of intelligence, when Mayuri didn't even wants to fight Ishida? He didn't care about him, interested ONLY in Orihime. Szayel was intersted IN ISHIDA. The fights are completely not alike. For starters, Mayuri tried to overpower Ishida. Ishida lost. Then Ishida got a convenient power-up not available to him afterwards.
You're getting into personals, while we are discussing technicals. Invalid.
Szayel is INT, Mayuri is INT. Ishida is not, and he fought both.

Mayuri beat Ishida then and would have beat him again, so don't start on it, even. Every single victory had some sort of a convenient power-up involved.
Can Ishida now absorb buildings, or fire arrows that can create holes in bankai-level people? No. Kthxbai.
Where did I ever say he can?

Ishida had grown weaker. Edn.
Where is it stated they are stronger? Nowhere, thx. Because it isn't, and Ishida doesn't have any more superpower power-ups, either. That's the only reason he's losing to Szayel, he has no more power-ups. He's weak, and that's the end of it.
Innocent until proven guilty. He didn't unless you can prove he did. Which you didn't. Which you can't. kthanxbai. :)

Uh, what does that have to do with anything I've said so far? We've seen Zaraki during another fight, and we thought they were fighting equally. Then Nnoitora comes around stating that he has toughest Ierro and... everyone believes him. Based on your logic, his statement is bull. Is it?
It has to do with jumping to conclusions without having the full picture.

Once we thought the fight was even, then Nnoitora suddenly has the toughest Ierro...
Once we see Zomari and Byakuya fighting equally Zomari suddenly states that he has fastest sonido. UUUU, what a comeback!

Said the person who would continually ignore stated situations -_-.
Vice versa.

And when a character says something about someone (themselves included), taking it as true is, well...
Then Ukitake and Shunsui aren't really the strongest captains either, if we must so stubbornly doubt what characters say about each other. It's how author tells his story and shows other characters.

[Undying]

Please quote where I said that.
What I said is that Ishida lost to Szayel and beat Mayuri, while Mayuri beat Szayel and lost to Ishida.
Ishida beat Mayuri via a special buff. He did NOT win by being actually stronger than Mayuri. Edn.
That is why I purposefully used "bankai level shinigami".:rolleye09
Without bankai, "bankai level" doesn't mean much.
Worded wrongly, mean to say that Mayuri didn't have problems with Szayel, not Ishida.
So, why would Mayuri have a problem with Szayel?
You're getting into personals, while we are discussing technicals. Invalid.
Szayel is INT, Mayuri is INT. Ishida is not, and he fought both.
Mayuri tried to overpower Ishida (and succeeded until Ishida got power-up). Szayel used INT to get around all of Ishida's abilities.

Different battles, different artifacts, different outcome.
Where did I ever say he can?
Exactly. Therefore if he fought Mayuri RIGHT NOW, he would lose. Because he not longer has the special power to beat Mayuri. Ishida is not, and never was, stronger than Mayuri. Therefore the argument that Ishida > Mayuri, Mayuri > Szayel and Szayel > Ishida is invalid because Ishida is not stronger than Mayuri.

It's consistent and very simple. Mayuri > Ishida, Szayel > Ishida. Edn. No relation to Ishida whatsoever in the power make-up, only convenient powers and somehow being able to survive without organs.
Innocent until proven guilty. He didn't unless you can prove he did. Which you didn't. Which you can't. kthanxbai. :)
Yes I can.

Ishida doesn't have super-special-awesome-absorb-building-kill-captain power.

Therefore Ishida is weaker. :cm:
It has to do with jumping to conclusions without having the full picture.
Once we see Zomari and Byakuya fighting equally Zomari suddenly states that he has fastest sonido. UUUU, what a comeback!
We never saw Byakuya and Zomari fighting equal, outside of their fight, or anyoen else generating hype over them. And Zomari's statements are bull anyway, Byakuya never lost sight of him, which he did with Ichigom and Ichigo got outspeeded by Ulqiorra and Grimmjow. You lose.
Vice versa.
You're ignoring blatant power-ups and fights to prove your points. Case in question: Ishida VS Mayuri.

1. You're saying it was an intelligence battle while in fact it was a power fight.

2. You're ignoring Ishida;s special power (which he no longer has).

etc.
Then Ukitake and Shunsui aren't really the strongest captains either, if we must so stubbornly doubt what characters say about each other. It's how author tells his story and shows other characters.
Right.

"Zaraki is the strongest and the ultimate beast of the Gotei".

Either you accept that (author tells the story etc.) and relinquish all your prior arguments about Byakuya > Zaraki, or you agree that what characters say, and how they are praised, is not always what they are truly capable of. Demonstration > praise.

[diamondedge]

Without bankai, "bankai level" doesn't mean much.
Erm, no. You need to gain a personal level of skill in order to gain bankai. Yes, by saying bankai level that doesn't mean ordinary shinigami who doesn't have bankai around right now.

Different battles, different artifacts, different outcome.

Every battle is fought in different circumstances, yet we always compare them.

Exactly. Therefore if he fought Mayuri RIGHT NOW, he would lose. Because he not longer has the special power to beat Mayuri. Ishida is not, and never was, stronger than Mayuri. Therefore the argument that Ishida > Mayuri, Mayuri > Szayel and Szayel > Ishida is invalid because Ishida is not stronger than Mayuri.
It's consistent and very simple. Mayuri > Ishida, Szayel > Ishida. Edn. No relation to Ishida whatsoever in the power make-up, only convenient powers and somehow being able to survive without organs.

Yes I can.
Ishida doesn't have super-special-awesome-absorb-building-kill-captain power.
Therefore Ishida is weaker. :cm:
Not always your strongest ability wins the fight against seemingly stronger abilities. Life is full of that truth. So is Bleach.

What you're saying now is sheer powah >>>> all.

We never saw Byakuya and Zomari fighting equal, outside of their fight, or anyoen else generating hype over them. And Zomari's statements are bull anyway, Byakuya never lost sight of him, which he did with Ichigom and Ichigo got outspeeded by Ulqiorra and Grimmjow. You lose.
Hype is subjective. I don't feel hyped with Nnoitora and Zaraki, so don't use that on me.
And why not? And also, Grimmjow was able to keep track of - not outrun.
So much for twisting arguments.

You're ignoring blatant power-ups and fights to prove your points. Case in question: Ishida VS Mayuri.
1. You're saying it was an intelligence battle while in fact it was a power fight.
2. You're ignoring Ishida;s special power (which he no longer has).
etc.
Right.
1.) No, I never said that, L2R, I said Ishida fought against INT opponent both times, not that it was "battle of intelligence."
2.) And you're ignoring the fact that force isn't always the way to beat even bigger force. You can fight fire with water, not more fire too.

I'm simply not blindly following 200 chapter old facts.

So I must assume that all characters win against each other only through power ups, because you said so? Right.

"Zaraki is the strongest and the ultimate beast of the Gotei".
Either you accept that (author tells the story etc.) and relinquish all your prior arguments about Byakuya > Zaraki, or you agree that what characters say, and how they are praised, is not always what they are truly capable of. Demonstration > praise.
Zaraki is strongest in Gotei 13. Because strength doesn't equal power + ability. Strength can be interpreted in many different ways. And you can't preach which was the one that Kubo meant, because that is up to reader to decide.

[Undying]

Erm, no. You need to gain a personal level of skill in order to gain bankai. Yes, by saying bankai level that doesn't mean ordinary shinigami who doesn't have bankai around right now.
So? Does it mean that Renji is now powerful enough? Yeah whatever.

Every battle is fought in different circumstances, yet we always compare them.
Blatantly different battles != slightly altered circumstances. You can't compare a battle which is entirely different from another battle, there's nothing to compare.


Not always your strongest ability wins the fight against seemingly stronger abilities. Life is full of that truth. So is Bleach.

What you're saying now is sheer powah >>>> all.
Ishida has nothing other than his special ability. And no, it's not his special ability that makes him win - it's the fact that it compliments his lack of power. No, sheer power is not the answer to everything, but lacking it means you can't win.

Ishida lacks the power to beat Mayuri. So he can't beat him. Mayuri can beat Szayel in a battle of intelligence (which he did), but Szayel can overpower Ishida. As can Mayuri. edn

Hype is subjective. I don't feel hyped with Nnoitora and Zaraki, so don't use that on me.
No, but that was the sole reason to put them there, after all, why bother saying how the "second part of the battle of barbarians" is beginning if not to generate hype?

I'm not using anything on you... I'm pointing out the obvious.

So much for twisting arguments.
Grimmjow could keep track of Ichigo's speed, and to react in time. That's what outspeeded is. I didn't say he outran Ichigo, did I? And even at the peak of their battle, they were equal kthx.

1.) No, I never said that, L2R, I said Ishida fought against INT opponent both times, not that it was "battle of intelligence."
Right back atcha:
In both cases, it was a battle of intelligence against Ishida.

So yeah, it was not a battle of intelligence and Ishida lacked the needed power to beat them both times. Difference is that during the Mayuri fight, one Mayuri didn't care about Ishida and two he had the necessary power-up available to compensate for his lack of power. In the second time, it was a pure battle of intelligence as Szayel studied Ishida and found a counter to his abilities.
2.) And you're ignoring the fact that force isn't always the way to beat even bigger force. You can fight fire with water, not more fire too.
No, but when you don't have the necessary power to tackle your opponent, no matter how much you turn to other ways, you'll run into the same wall of not enough power. Ishida lacks the needed power to beat Mayuri. Edn.

I'm simply not blindly following 200 chapter old facts.
I suppose you have new facts that completely cross out the old and make the story even more inconsistent. Congratulations. I already said, don't screw with the screwed up, it build up fail.

So I must assume that all characters win against each other only through power ups, because you said so? Right.
Review the fights, and you discover I am right.

I'll start from the earlier fight against Shinigami...

Renji VS Ichigo take 1: Ichigo beat Renji through suddenly awakening some of his power. Power-up? Yes

Ichigo VS Ikkaku: Ichigo beats by being faster and better in swordsmanship. Power-up? No.

Ichigo VS Renji take 2: Ichigo beats Renji by... getting another power (Getsuga Tenshou). Power-up? Yes.

Ichigo VS Zaraki: Ichigo gets extra power from Zangetsu. Power-up? Yes.

Ishida VS Mayuri: Ishida beats Mayuri by getting a special power-up. Power-up? Yes. (Before that Ishida was being eaten alive by a shikai Mayuri and even that barely straining himself - no int, just power).

Ichigo VS Byakuya: Ichigo gets one of the only few powers to counter Byakuya's - bankai + speed special. Power-up? Very much so (he didn't stand a chance against Byakuya without bankai, remember?). And Ichigo needed an additional boost from Ogichi later (because he beat himself etc.)

Then we stop Soul Society arc and move on to the Vaizard/first signs of Arrancar arc:

Ichigo VS Yammy: Ichigo got no power-ups from Soul Society here, Ichigo LOSES.

Ichigo VS Grimmjow take 1: again, no power-ups, Ichigo loses.

Ichigo VS Grimmjow take 2: Grimmjow wasn't at full power (power decrease) so Ichigo loses because his power-up isn't badass enough.

Ishida VS Iceringer/Cirucci: Ishida got a new nifty power up (super bow and then Selee Schineidar). Ishida wins through new power gains. Or in simpler words, power-ups.

Ichigo VS Doldonii: Ichigo got a power-up (the mask), Ichigo wins. Power-up victory.

Chad VS Ganbetein: Chad gets a new power-up (a whole two new upgraded arms), Chad wins through power up.

Ichigo VS Ulqiorra: Ichigo got no power-ups, Ichigo loses and dies.

Ichigo VS Grimmjow take 3: Ichigo got a power-up, more power-up (more mask time), so Ichigo wins. Because he had a new power-up.

As you can see, you don't have to believe me... all fights are won through power-ups.

Now let's review the none-main cast fights...

Byakuya VS Zomari: Byakuya wins... by gaining another two techniques (one Senbonzakura never-before-heard-of-name and another using from Yoruichi). New powers... power-up!

Mayuri VS Szayel: Mayuri got new abilities (poisons, somehow getting uncensored Ishida movies irl etc.) and Nemu is conveniently given a special poison. Oh and Mayuri has fake organs which apparently can function after getting crushed. Power-up and enough plotkai to stuff even the hardcore fans.

All fights are won by gaining new techniques and abilities. Edn. You don't have to believe me, the manga is pretty clear on that part.

Zaraki is strongest in Gotei 13. Because strength doesn't equal power + ability. Strength can be interpreted in many different ways. And you can't preach which was the one that Kubo meant, because that is up to reader to decide.
Bullocks. Zaraki is not, and never was, the strongest in the Gotei 13. One look at Yamamoto and Aizen is enough to clear any doubts regarding that.

Zaraki is not the most powerful (powerful as in SHEER POWER) warrior in the Gotei 13. He lacks the most powerful attack power, the overpowering energy levels (OVER NINETHOUSAAAAAAAAAND), and the badass body when you're 90+.

Edn.

Seriously what are you arguing about? That Mayuri is strongest than Ishida? He is, damn it. Manga is pretty clear on that. No interpretation needed.

You're arguing that Zomari is fastest? Then why could Byakuya keep him in his sights and couldn't do the same to Ichigo?

Ichigo was matched by/outpaced by Grimmjow and Ulqiorra. What other proof do you need that Zomari was BULLSHITTING HIS ASS OFF? Maybe you need Ulqiorra to start running circles around Byakuya while singing "my skin is hardest, lalalalala" in emo style -_-.

[diamondedge]

Blatantly different battles != slightly altered circumstances. You can't compare a battle which is entirely different from another battle, there's nothing to compare.
I remember you saying, that Grimmjow would butcher Byakuya because Ichigo in VB barely scratched Ichigo, while he "raped" Byakuya.
These were two different battles in different circumstances. did you care, did anyone do? No. All you cared was who lost against who to predict outcome of the battle we were discussing. While I'm not too fond of such simple logic myself, I find the sudden objectiveness and over analyzing tad hypocritical.

Ishida has nothing other than his special ability. And no, it's not his special ability that makes him win - it's the fact that it compliments his lack of power. No, sheer power is not the answer to everything, but lacking it means you can't win.
Ishida lacks the power to beat Mayuri. So he can't beat him. Mayuri can beat Szayel in a battle of intelligence (which he did), but Szayel can overpower Ishida. As can Mayuri. edn
Neither does Zaraki, neither does Ichigo, neither does 90 percent of Bleach cast. So, shall we go screaming "PLOTKAI" after every battle?

Grimmjow could keep track of Ichigo's speed, and to react in time. That's what outspeeded is. I didn't say he outran Ichigo, did I? And even at the peak of their battle, they were equal kthx.
That doesn't change the fact you altered your arguments, I have seen way too much of your manipulative language to buy that. :)

No, but when you don't have the necessary power to tackle your opponent, no matter how much you turn to other ways, you'll run into the same wall of not enough power. Ishida lacks the needed power to beat Mayuri. Edn.
Mayuri is physically fragile. ALL Ishida would have to do back than is to ignore Mayuri's pet and shoot him in the face, and he wouldn't need to remove his gloves, that was what I was trying to tell.

I suppose you have new facts that completely cross out the old and make the story even more inconsistent. Congratulations. I already said, don't screw with the screwed up, it build up fail.
This is not what I'm doing. I am simply taking the updated information into account, not the outdated one.

Review the fights, and you discover I am right.
No, it just furthermore proves that SS can't even be used as a power gauge, because all character powers except their power ups that jump in for storyline purposes were irrelevant to the final outcome.

Bullocks. Zaraki is not, and never was, the strongest in the Gotei 13. One look at Yamamoto and Aizen is enough to clear any doubts regarding that.
LOL of course, by strength I meant physical strength! It's both strength, and we have different kinds of strength. Then there is power.

You're arguing that Zomari is fastest? Then why could Byakuya keep him in his sights and couldn't do the same to Ichigo?
You know, different battles, different circumstances & stuff? And Byakuya didn't really want to fight Ichigo either, especially when their goals were the same in heart. If you don't want to do something, how much of your max potential will you bring out of something you do forcefully? Aren't circumstances where one fights to take a life of the only person that still matters to him, different from the ones where one fights to save that very life?

That's the hypocracy I was talking about in first paragraph of this post. If you are playing objective/objective and subjective/subjective, do so for everything.

Ichigo was matched by/outpaced by Grimmjow and Ulqiorra. What other proof do you need that Zomari was BULLSHITTING HIS ASS OFF? Maybe you need Ulqiorra to start running circles around Byakuya while singing "my skin is hardest, lalalalala" in emo style -_-.
You are still comparing that speed based from what you've seen in fights that occurred in different circumstances among different characters.
Through your own logic, I disapprove of it.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Zomari creates 5 clones, Ichigo creates about 10-15.

Ulquiorra is AS FAST (faster, obviously.) than bankai ichigo.

Therefore, Ulquiorra is faster than Zomari.


((and wow, you two are arguing. This is like...unheard of!))

[diamondedge]

Looking forward to simply directing you to page chapters instead of trying to get my point across.

My time will come. Mark my words.
( and Ichigo doesn't create clones, he creates afterimages. I wrote something about this on previous page)

((so what? can't we disagree on something every once in a while?))

[Seff vi Britannia]

Ichigo VS Ulqiorra: Ichigo got no power-ups, Ichigo loses and dies.




Erm, Ichigo displayed more power in that fight than he did anywhere else ever in Bleach - and managed to slightly injure Ulquiorra, who is most probably a vastrode.



Otherwise, i agree with you :cm:



WHOOOOOOOOOPS didn't read Dia's post.



Mhm, kinda. But look at it like this; the faster you move, the more afterimages you have. If Zomari moved faster than Ichigo, he would have more after images, it's as simple as that.

If he has some kind of "clone" technique it's more like Kage Bunshin.

((More to the point, they weren't clones anyway.))

[diamondedge]

Define power.

Ulquiorra fought no one but Ichigo (and Grimm, but that's not the case), who initially ALWAYS gets beaten by everyone, and that is SUCH a pwn in Bleach these days.

[Seff vi Britannia]

The break-the-whole-*******-room-down-with-the-biggest-KGT-we've-ever-seen powah.

:cm:

[Undying]

I remember you saying, that Grimmjow would butcher Byakuya because Ichigo in VB barely scratched Ichigo, while he "raped" Byakuya.
These were two different battles in different circumstances. did you care, did anyone do? No. All you cared was who lost against who to predict outcome of the battle we were discussing. While I'm not too fond of such simple logic myself, I find the sudden objectiveness and over analyzing tad hypocritical.
Grimmjow would butcher Byakuya :). Speed + ranged attack + defensive ability enough to get him within striking range of Byakuya? Please. One of those pillars that Ichigo took would kill Byakuya.
Neither does Zaraki, neither does Ichigo, neither does 90 percent of Bleach cast. So, shall we go screaming "PLOTKAI" after every battle?
When have I *ever* said that it's plotkai? I merely stated that no victory is achieved with only what you had previously. Ishida cannot win against Szayel not because of story inconsistency, but because he no longer has the necessary power. The same applies for Zaraki against Nnoitora.

Mayuri VS Szayel was a battle of intelligence, Byakuya VS Zomari a battle of existing skills.

Mayuri VS Szayel is in no way influenced by Ishida VS Mayuri due to Ishida's missing power. If Ishida had the necessary power upgrades available, and still lost, then you'd be right. However, Ishida lack the needed power. Since this fight is blatantly different, you cannot compare it.

Zomari VS Byakuya is not influenced by Ichigo VS Byakuya either, however, Zomaru's supposed "fastest Sonido" is. Zomari is not fastest nor he has the fastest Sonido (refer to losing sight of people before).

Same applies to Mr. "I IS STRONGEST ESPADA! FEAR ME!".
That doesn't change the fact you altered your arguments, I have seen way too much of your manipulative language to buy that. :)
Speaking of altering arguments, Miss "this is an intelligence battle"... I did not alter my argument. I simply altered the wording slightly.

The point is the same. Ichigo (and subsequently Grimmjow and Ulqiorra) performed feats which Zomari did not, at any point, equal. End of story. Clones or no clones, Byakuya could still follow Zomari. Byakuya who lost sight of Ichigo, who was then outpaced by Ulqiorra and evened/almost evenly (this one's especially for you to include ALL the possibilities) matched by Grimmjow.
Mayuri is physically fragile. ALL Ishida would have to do back than is to ignore Mayuri's pet and shoot him in the face, and he wouldn't need to remove his gloves, that was what I was trying to tell.
Review the fight again kthx.

Mayuri was outdoing Ishida on every singly step of the fight. Speed, strength, offensive.

Ishida was being beaten. No amount of "he should have" will change that. By this argument, Ichigo should not have been a merciful arrogant fool and killed Byakuya right off the bat.

But fact is that Ishida was being outmatched on every level. Completely and utterly. Ishida does not have the power to defeat Mayuri. That hadn't changed since the Soul Society arc - no amount of supposed "updating information" would change this until further notice.
This is not what I'm doing. I am simply taking the updated information into account, not the outdated one.
I did not realize that Ishida still had his superior power-ups, pardon me, I'll go look for the manga page where Ishida had the Sanrei glove on him during the Szayel fight.

Oh wait, that didn't happen. Because according to updated information, Ishida lacks his most serious trap card which compensates for his lack of power.
No, it just furthermore proves that SS can't even be used as a power gauge, because all character powers except their power ups that jump in for storyline purposes were irrelevant to the final outcome.
-_- And the Hueco Mundo fights were won through superior strategical thinking and tactical manipulation, and not through random power-ups?

Soul Society arc can and is used to gauge certain power-levels. For example, Zaraki cannot beat Nnoitora because, lo and behold, Ichigo who is much stronger than he cannot.

What the Soul Society arc cannot be used for is blatant statements such as "Mayuri can't beat Szayel because Szayel beat Ishida".
LOL of course, by strength I meant physical strength! It's both strength, and we have different kinds of strength. Then there is power.
If you lack physical strength, no matter how many times you kick someone, they will floor you with a punch. So, yes, if you lack power compared to someone, you get a Mayuri VS Ishida. Ishida got a special boost that compensated for his lack of physical (for simplicity's sake I'm using physical, it's in fact also speed and offensive capabilities) strength.

But that is in NO WAY indicative of the power difference between Mayuri and Szayel, or Zaraki and Nnoitora.

Zaraki can't beat Nnoitora without a power-up because Ichigo can't. Ichigo is stronger than Zaraki, no matter how much you argue that it was a strange power-up.

Just like Byakuya is stronger than Zaraki (Ichigo needed another power-up to beat him while equaling Zaraki), Nnoitora is stronger than masked Ichigo who is stronger than Grimmjow who is stronger than bankai Ichigo who is stronger than Zaraki (and got the speed to fight properly with Byakuya's overpowering SKY, trust me I know, I use it as a weapon in a RP, it's crazy, really).

Or in our favorite way of writing...

Nnoitora > Masked Ichigo > Grimmjow > bankai Ichigo > Zaraki.

You know, different battles, different circumstances & stuff? And Byakuya didn't really want to fight Ichigo either, especially when their goals were the same in heart. If you don't want to do something, how much of your max potential will you bring out of something you do forcefully? Aren't circumstances where one fights to take a life of the only person that still matters to him, different from the ones where one fights to save that very life?
What's that got to do with your physical capabilities? If you can't follow an object flying, you won't be able to regardless of how much you are enraged at the death of the one person you care about most in the world. Byakuya could not follow Ichigo. He stated and emphasized his shock on it by actually thinking "I lost him!" And actually SHOWING shock.

Byakuya was not shocked or surprised at Zomari's "speed", nor did he lose him once.

Speaks volumes about "DA FASTAST OF DA ESPADA!"
That's the hypocracy I was talking about in first paragraph of this post. If you are playing objective/objective and subjective/subjective, do so for everything.
Right... "Byakuya strong resolve gave him a power-up and so he became an ultimate warrior who could follow the tracks of the fastest Espada". Very objective.
You are still comparing that speed based from what you've seen in fights that occurred in different circumstances among different characters.
Through your own logic, I disapprove of it.
Right...

Because the comparison is straightforward and has no bent angles.

It's Nnoitora > Ichigo > Grimmjow > Ichigo > Zaraki.

Nnoitora is BSing his hat off just like Zomari. All explanations can be heard up there.

Ichigo creates many more after images than Zomari demonstrated.

Byakuya lost sight of Ichigo, but did not lose sight of Zomari (compare their facial expressions, thoughts, etc.)

Grimmjow equaled/was slightly less (against especially for you just to include "all possibilities") than masked bankai Ichigo, who should logically be much faster than bankai Ichigo, who in turn was so fast that Byakuya LOST SIGHT OF HIM.

Ulqiorra is faster than Grimmjow by virtue of being ranked higher (although admittedly, Ulqiorra never in fact chased a masked Ichigo, he chased a wounded and tired bankai Ichigo).

Overall, Zomari is just a loudmouth. Just like Nnoitora.

Because, lo and behold, Ichigo on par with/slightly stronger than Grimmjow could not hurt Ulqiorra beyond a casual toss through the nearby wall (come on we all fly through walls and survive unscathed) and a slightly burn on his clothes.

So yeah... Nnoitora's skin will be hardest when I hear someone stronger than him (read, ranked higher or Aizen) states clearly and calmly that yeah, Nnoitora has indeed the hardest Ierro of the 10 Espada and NO ONE can compare to him in Ierro hardness.

After which you will relinquish the argument of Byakuya > Zaraki as Zaraki's sheer cutting power is enough to cut through "toughest Ierro in all 10 Espada", which means that Byakuya's petals would never be able to stop him.

:rolleye09

Edit: @Seff I'm letting Dia vent off steam and reviving her good old self. Etc. etc. As for Ichigo displaying more power... that's an argument about whom does Ichigo love, not for here.

@Dia: Ichigo is almost never "initially defeated utterly". It's more like "first gets a beating then figures out his opponent". When he's beaten, he's usually close to death or dead already.

[Esca]

Wanted to say this earlier, but didn't have the time. Just in case it still hasn't:

Sonido is an ability, not overall speed. Zomari having the fastest Sonido may be true since it's an ability while the upper Espada are overall faster than him.

[diamondedge]

When have I *ever* said that it's plotkai? I merely stated that no victory is achieved with only what you had previously. Ishida cannot win against Szayel not because of story inconsistency, but because he no longer has the necessary power. The same applies for Zaraki against Nnoitora.
I never said you did. it's what we usually refer to when a characters suddenly get unexplained power boost to help them win.

Zomari VS Byakuya is not influenced by Ichigo VS Byakuya either, however, Zomaru's supposed "fastest Sonido" is. Zomari is not fastest nor he has the fastest Sonido (refer to losing sight of people before).
Aha, but Grimmjow VS Byakuya would decided because of Byakuya vs Ichigo, right?

The point is the same. Ichigo (and subsequently Grimmjow and Ulqiorra) performed feats which Zomari did not, at any point, equal. End of story. Clones or no clones, Byakuya could still follow Zomari. Byakuya who lost sight of Ichigo, who was then outpaced by Ulqiorra and evened/almost evenly (this one's especially for you to include ALL the possibilities) matched by Grimmjow.
Zomari also preformed the feasts that none of the characters did before. Refer to basic laws of physics to see why.

-_- And the Hueco Mundo fights were won through superior strategical thinking and tactical manipulation, and not through random power-ups?
I like to call it "schemed fights", but technically speaking, yes, they kind of make more sense than they did in HM. Because we have more info to judge on -> extension of characters overall abilities.

Soul Society arc can and is used to gauge certain power-levels. For example, Zaraki cannot beat Nnoitora because, lo and behold, Ichigo who is much stronger than he cannot.
But he will, and that will be the new updated information, which will completely cross out any fact about Zaraki in SS. Once Zaraki somehow beats Nnoitora through power up that will probably be available to him till the end of his days, how do you plan to explain that? That it was loads of bull because he could't beat Ichigo in SS?

No. it is what I said, SS days are over, and all events in the current arc indicate that.

If you lack physical strength, no matter how many times you kick someone, they will floor you with a punch.
Erm, no. Ever did a martial arts class? Unless you fight a giant that is gazillion times heavier than yourself, which is not even the case here, you can always land a deadly blow, if you only know where, not how strong. Technique.

Zaraki can't beat Nnoitora without a power-up because Ichigo can't. Ichigo is stronger than Zaraki, no matter how much you argue that it was a strange power-up.
As I said, any comparison vs Ichigo = not working 4 me.

What's that got to do with your physical capabilities? If you can't follow an object flying, you won't be able to regardless of how much you are enraged at the death of the one person you care about most in the world. Byakuya could not follow Ichigo. He stated and emphasized his shock on it by actually thinking "I lost him!" And actually SHOWING shock.
Yes, he did. But.
Zomari is 1 rank below Grimmjow, something Ichigo had troubles with. As we know, none of the Espada so far are vasto lorde material, they are all adjuchas, so power gaps between them are hardly even noticeable. Even the number of their abilities is basically the same, what varies is what means they use.

Vaizard Bankai Ichigo won Grimm through his resolve. "Sorry I can't take any more damage" -> "Sorry I'm taking this alone." Byakuya who fought Zomari which is 1 rank below Grimmjow resorted to his basic SKY to win Zomari. Makes sense after what we've seen in SS?

Once you involve SS, it just does NOT work.
Yes, obviously I'm turning this in certain character's favor, but you can't prove me wrong, because once you try, there are dozen of things that tell otherwise.
If your logic worked, Zaraki wouldn't even stand next to Nnoitora.

Ulqiorra is faster than Grimmjow by virtue of being ranked higher (although admittedly, Ulqiorra never in fact chased a masked Ichigo, he chased a wounded and tired bankai Ichigo).
My godness, what are you saying! Because of that Ulquiorra's movement speed >>>>>> all, because he could keep track with beaten hotheaded fighter! I wouldn't dare to doubt that!

So yeah... Nnoitora's skin will be hardest when I hear someone stronger than him (read, ranked higher or Aizen) states clearly and calmly that yeah, Nnoitora has indeed the hardest Ierro of the 10 Espada and NO ONE can compare to him in Ierro hardness.
Why wouldn't he have the hardest skin? Who said that all higher ranked Espada are superior in EVERY way from lower ranks? What if Primera Espada has a detachable vagina that is spraying deadly cyanide and Segunda has longest penis? I don't think Kubo would have written those dialogs as the loads of bull, but simply to state that this specific character has one special trait that is better than anyone elses, regardless of their rank.

Edit: @Seff I'm letting Dia vent off steam and reviving her good old self. Etc. etc. As for Ichigo displaying more power... that's an argument about whom does Ichigo love, not for here.
Screw you. I simply disagree with what you say because it is clear to me people refuse to move on just because they liked SS arc better, or some odd reasons I don't give a damn about.

@Dia: Ichigo is almost never "initially defeated utterly". It's more like "first gets a beating then figures out his opponent". When he's beaten, he's usually close to death or dead already.
Figure out his opponent?
He never does that, he is not the type to fight with his head.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Why wouldn't he have the hardest skin? Who said that all higher ranked Espada are superior in EVERY way from lower ranks? What if Primera Espada has a detachable vagina that is spraying deadly cyanide and Segunda has longest penis? I don't think Kubo would have written those dialogs as the loads of bull, but simply to state that this specific character has one special trait that is better than anyone elses, regardless of their rank.



Shounen logic fault : A girl would not be the main antagonist

[smach]

omg i never thought it would get this interesnting. *grabs popcorn*


on topic: i haven't read half the stuff on here since page 1 coz....every post is so damn long...but i believe ichigo would still win against sealed noitora...but i'd love to watch a fight when he's released...if he even has a good one.

[Undying]

I never said you did. it's what we usually refer to when a characters suddenly get unexplained power boost to help them win.
Thing is, with the exception of a few, almost every single power-up is perfectly explained :cm:. Except Mayuri and Szayel, that was... weird. "I haz teh poson! I haz teh rebirth! I haz moar poson!"

Yeah...

Aha, but Grimmjow VS Byakuya would decided because of Byakuya vs Ichigo, right?
Where have I see that before? :whatevah: we all know how those debates work...

"Grimmjow is faster!"

"But Ichigo/SKY!"

"But Grimm/Ichigo!"

And so on and so forth until Byakuya is forgotten...
Zomari also preformed the feasts that none of the characters did before. Refer to basic laws of physics to see why.
A little girl carrying a huge man up whole skyscrapers is explain in what law?

I like to call it "schemed fights", but technically speaking, yes, they kind of make more sense than they did in HM. Because we have more info to judge on -> extension of characters overall abilities.
The only character so far to display abilities that we would have logically attributed them to him is... Byakuya :cm:

Maryuri has nekkid Ishida vids (yeah I'm still high on that XD).

Zaraki has... what? Some power that raised him to Vaizard bankai Ichigo power-up?

See, only Byakuya has some sort of a logical progression here: we know he's a Kido master and we know he's a speed specialist.

But he will, and that will be the new updated information, which will completely cross out any fact about Zaraki in SS. Once Zaraki somehow beats Nnoitora through power up that will probably be available to him till the end of his days, how do you plan to explain that? That it was loads of bull because he could't beat Ichigo in SS?
I will explain it in the following manner:

He gained shikai/bankia through talking with his eyepatch.

And then I will go PLOTKAI BIZATCHES. :Domo

No. it is what I said, SS days are over, and all events in the current arc indicate that.
Not really, no one (except Mayuri, who is apparently a... goat?) changed really, so far. Byakuya is still Kido/speed/overwhelming attack power, Zaraki is still "I'ma cut ho!". And Ichigo is still emo idiots, Orihime is still the typical "big boobs in exchange for street/book smarts" etc etc.

Soul Society days aren't over... they were copied, pasted, and slightly edited to look different :p.

Erm, no. Ever did a martial arts class? Unless you fight a giant that is gazillion times heavier than yourself, which is not even the case here, you can always land a deadly blow, if you only know where, not how strong. Technique.
Mayuri was about a gazillion times faster and stronger than Ishida. And he had the needed technique and strategy. Ishida needed to become overpoweringly strong (a giant gazillion times stronger) in order to surpass him. An upgrade which is no longer available to him, thus reducing him back to a kid against an adult. No matter how good the technique is...

As I said, any comparison vs Ichigo = not working 4 me.
Because he beat Byakuya? :toocool: Actually, in terms of power alone, I think the comparisons are quite correct (that's what I did). When it comes to measuring overall fighting prowess, though...

Yes, he did. But.
Zomari is 1 rank below Grimmjow, something Ichigo had troubles with. As we know, none of the Espada so far are vasto lorde material, they are all adjuchas, so power gaps between them are hardly even noticeable. Even the number of their abilities is basically the same, what varies is what means they use.
From what we saw of Grimmjow's destructive power demonstrations (aside from Gran Ray Cero), I'd say that the sheer difference in power is quite noticeable. But if you want to measure technique and how would one fare against the other, let's have that debate (which will inevitably turn into either a Ichigo VS or Byakuya VS Zaraki).

Vaizard Bankai Ichigo won Grimm through his resolve. "Sorry I can't take any more damage" -> "Sorry I'm taking this alone." Byakuya who fought Zomari which is 1 rank below Grimmjow resorted to his basic SKY to win Zomari. Makes sense after what we've seen in SS?
Actually, yes, it does.

Byakuya said he'd kill Ichigo [I]with his own hands, that's why he used Senkei, because he wanted to fight Ichigo at the peak of his killing ability. When fighting against Zomari, he needed an overpoweringly large attack, which basic (although I don't know if Gokei is a basic technique, for all we know it is as strong as Senkei, just not as personal) SKY provided. And note that he was actually much stronger than Zomari as he killed him with one blow after poking out his eyes.

This would not have worked against Grimmjow - see speed and power comparison. Now, how would a fight between them end... Ichigo VS? And go debate!

Once you involve SS, it just does NOT work.
Yes, obviously I'm turning this in certain character's favor, but you can't prove me wrong, because once you try, there are dozen of things that tell otherwise.
If your logic worked, Zaraki wouldn't even stand next to Nnoitora.
Why not? 11th division people stand by Zaraki... doesn't mean they can beat him... Zaraki is standing next to Nnoitora, but he's pretty useless against him (whether or not he has the hardest skin, he is simply stronger).

My godness, what are you saying! Because of that Ulquiorra's movement speed >>>>>> all, because he could keep track with beaten hotheaded fighter! I wouldn't dare to doubt that!
He is ranked higher than Grimmjow who could at least see and react to said fighter. As sweeter likes to try and prod on me, "COMMON SENSE" and then Hitsugaya suddenly loses his bankai after the flowers go even though it shows in the manga it stays. ;)

Why wouldn't he have the hardest skin? Who said that all higher ranked Espada are superior in EVERY way from lower ranks? What if Primera Espada has a detachable vagina that is spraying deadly cyanide and Segunda has longest penis? I don't think Kubo would have written those dialogs as the loads of bull, but simply to state that this specific character has one special trait that is better than anyone elses, regardless of their rank.
I would have believed if, shall we say, Halibel said her skin was hardest, because she is not a gloating snake-freak that says he is the strongest Espada. Once you put me before a gloating moron who says his penis is longest, I take it with a truck of salt...

Screw you. I simply disagree with what you say because it is clear to me people refuse to move on just because they liked SS arc better, or some odd reasons I don't give a damn about.
:cm: See? SEE? Angry, I tell you.

Anyhoo, no, I don't prefer the Soul Society arc at all to the current one (I don't "prefer" anything in Bleach to it's previous or future), but I am keeping the story consistent and referring to apparently unused material for arguments because Kubo has done that in the past and is doing it again.

Remember the limiter they get when going to the real world? No one remembered it by chapter 210 and then it turned out everyone were limited and that's why they were having their asses handed right back to them.

So I keep things consistent until I hit a significant change (e.g., if Zaraki pulls bankai next chapter, I will agree of course that his Soul Society self is no longer applicable, but until such time as a drastic change has occurred, everything is built on basis of past story, which means that yeah, Nnoitora > Zaraki and Mayuri > Szayel > Ishida)/

Figure out his opponent?
He never does that, he is not the type to fight with his head.
Refer to Ikkaku fight. "My eyes... can finally follow your movement". A cliche'd and overused statement, but one that indicates that Ichigo is indeed fighting with his head. And to more recent chapter, Doldonii fight - Ichigo had the brains to figure out that he shouldn't abuse his mask because it causes him strain and he needs it for Ulqy-bro. So yeah, he's got brains, we just don't see them too often, Shonen stuff etc.

Anyhoo, that's my last word on the matter, I know we can go at this for hours so screw this.

:babies:

I'm hungry and I hate typing so much :whatevah:

[Jay3205]

Ulquiorra being one rank higher doesn't indicate his statistics are all higher than every lower espada. There's direct evidence that this is not the case. The author has only 1 way to give facts, and that is to make characters say the fact. If that is ignored, pretty much nothing can be argued. We could just say stuff like Yoruichi could've pwned Byakuya since the beginning... she just said she couldn't to make Ichigo gain bankai. She never got injured when she fought Yammy... she just acted like it so she could get pampered.

On another note: Is Ulquiorra even so blindingly fast that nobody can react to him, or is it that he can hide his power well? After all, he was in the city the whole time, yet nobody seemed to realize he was there. It's quite possible nobody reacted to him because they just didn't sense him... not that he was blindingly fast that they couldn't react. Otherwise, we could say Rukia is ridiculously fast for being able to surprise Grimmjaw and Ichigo with her sneak attack.

[Esca]

It could be that he was out of the sensory zone then suddenly appeared where he could be sensed, next to Grimmjow.

[smach]

or, he also had some type of gadget that made his presence undetectable...like what he gave orihime to keep her undetected.

yea, the thing that generates a reimaku (aka spiritual shell): >>> ch237 p02 <<< (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/237/02/)

[Undying]

Ulquiorra being one rank higher doesn't indicate his statistics are all higher than every lower espada. There's direct evidence that this is not the case. The author has only 1 way to give facts, and that is to make characters say the fact. If that is ignored, pretty much nothing can be argued. We could just say stuff like Yoruichi could've pwned Byakuya since the beginning... she just said she couldn't to make Ichigo gain bankai. She never got injured when she fought Yammy... she just acted like it so she could get pampered.

So... Nnoitora is the strongest Espada?
On another note: Is Ulquiorra even so blindingly fast that nobody can react to him, or is it that he can hide his power well? After all, he was in the city the whole time, yet nobody seemed to realize he was there. It's quite possible nobody reacted to him because they just didn't sense him... not that he was blindingly fast that they couldn't react. Otherwise, we could say Rukia is ridiculously fast for being able to surprise Grimmjaw and Ichigo with her sneak attack.
Decado argued before that the author made a point of showing Ulqiorra's sudden appearance to emphasize his speed.

IMO, he was face, because I doubt Aizen has so many of those gadgets that he lets everyone walk around with them, especially people like Ulqiorra who don't need to hide themselves. Plus there was the whole deception issue...

[sweeter]

Ulquiorra being one rank higher doesn't indicate his statistics are all higher than every lower espada.
Exactly.

Ulquiorra may be slightly slower than Zomari, have slightly weaker Hierro than Nnoitra, but is overall, more powerful than both of them because his attack power and intelligence grossly outmatch theirs.

Real life application: The valedictorian/person with the highest GPA in class need not be the best in ALL subjects. He could be the best in Math and English and only second-best in Science and History, but STILL have the highest GPA - beating the salutatorian who is best in Science and fourth in all other subjects and the first honorable mention who is best in History but fifth in all other subjects.

The author has only 1 way to give facts, and that is to make characters say the fact. If that is ignored, pretty much nothing can be argued.
This is a fundamental principle in literature.

It's sad that it even has to be stated. It's common sense.

(:

[Undying]

Exactly.

Ulquiorra may be slightly slower than Zomari, have slightly weaker Hierro than Nnoitra, but is overall, more powerful than both of them because his attack power and intelligence grossly outmatch theirs.

Real life application: The valedictorian/person with the highest GPA in class need not be the best in ALL subjects. He could be the best in Math and English and only second-best in Science and History, but STILL have the highest GPA - beating the salutatorian who is best in Science and fourth in all other subjects and the first honorable mention who is best in History but fifth in all other subjects.
But this isn't class. It's fighting. Nnoitora can beat anyone by simply letting them try and cut him - his defenses are strongest in the whole group, which means that he is probably immune to most attacks, as he has the hardest shield. But he's only ranked fifth (based on the statement that if something is stated in the story it is automatically true, he also has most power, whatever that is. Strongest + highest defense... yeah)


This is a fundamental principle in literature.

It's sad that it even has to be stated. It's common sense.

(:
Your common sense != actual common sense.

Or Nnoitora is the strongest Espada, has the hardest skin, Zomari is so fast he can kill Ulqiorra or anyone else before they can react (his Sonido is fastest and makes clones, eh?), Zaraki is the strongest captain, Yoruichi is fastest (despite being equaled by Soi Fon and later being outmatched by Ichigo's super-ultra speed levels ;)). Oh and Hitsugaya's bankai disappears after the flowers are gone, despite the fact it stays.

In a comic book, there is another way to state facts, and that is to demonstrate them. So far, Nnoitora's statements are empty claims because he hasn't demonstrated ability equal to his talk.

Edn.

[smach]

i don't get why this is going back to hitsugaya's bankai...IMO saying the original (most common) form doesn't disappear after the petals are gone is like sayin ichigo can fire countless KGTs in shikai, w/o gettin exhausted.

[Undying]

i don't get why this is going back to hitsugaya's bankai...IMO saying the original (most common) form doesn't disappear after the petals are gone is like sayin ichigo can fire countless KGTs in shikai, w/o gettin exhausted.

It's getting back to it because people still think it despite it not being the case. When the flowers disappear, Hitsugaya can form his ultimate attack (the Ice Prison). It's been clearly shown that he does not have petals while still having his bankai (chapters 234-237, the Luppi fight, too lazy to find the exact pages).

And that, despite the author supposedly "stating" that Hitsugaya's bankai vanishes after the flowers go through Shawlong. Comes to prove that what is demonstrated outweighs what is stated.

[Decado]

Ulquiorra being one rank higher doesn't indicate his statistics are all higher than every lower espada. There's direct evidence that this is not the case. The author has only 1 way to give facts, and that is to make characters say the fact.
Well... and show things.

She never got injured when she fought Yammy... she just acted like it so she could get pampered.
No but we saw her get injured, she didn't just say she did.

On another note: Is Ulquiorra even so blindingly fast that nobody can react to him
Yes. Yes he was, IN THAT SCENE.

It was already used to show that he was higher in rank than Grimmjow. And yes, that turned out to be true.

or is it that he can hide his power well? After all, he was in the city the whole time
He was talking with Inoue between dimensions remember, not hiding behind a building in the city

yet nobody seemed to realize he was there.It's quite possible nobody reacted to him because they just didn't sense him...
Impossible. Kubo hasn't expanded on this at all, if it were the case.

1. He was between dimensions
2. Kubo used it to show Ulquiorra outmatched everyone there for movement (Grimmjow, Shinji, Ichigo and Rukia)
3. Used that scene to show he was stronger than Grimmjow
4. Was a pwn scene that must not be questioned for all the reasons above

not that he was blindingly fast that they couldn't react.
Exactly this. That was the point of the scene. He's already let Ichigo live twice other than this


Decado argued before that the author made a point of showing Ulqiorra's sudden appearance to emphasize his speed.
Yey, someone remembered

Ulquiorra may be slightly slower than Zomari, have slightly weaker Hierro than Nnoitra, but is overall, more powerful than both of them because his attack power and intelligence grossly outmatch theirs.
QFT.

[sweeter]

Nnoitora can beat anyone by simply letting them try and cut him - his defenses are strongest in the whole group, which means that he is probably immune to most attacks, as he has the hardest shield.
Not necessarily.

Nnoitra's skin may only be slightly tougher than Ulquiorra's, which can take a full-blown Vizard Getsuga. However, the Primera might have the strongest attack power (one punch equivalent to 5 Vizard Getsugas) and second-best speed (5 times faster than Vizard Ichigo) among the Espada. Nnoitra could die around a dozen or so punches, and he could never have hope of actually connecting a hit to the Primera.

It is evident that although Nnoitra may have slightly higher defense, taking into consideration the latter's other statistics, the match is decided in the Primera's favor.

Zomari is so fast he can kill Ulqiorra or anyone else before they can react
No, not really.

Speed =/= reaction time. Like Ichigo and Byakuya on the bridge. Byakuya was faster than Ichigo then, but that didn't mean Ichigo did not have the reaction time to counter it at least once. Same principle.

Zomari might be faster than Ulquiorra, but right before he punches/kicks/slashes him, Ulquiorra might grab his limb and pull him close, karate chop him in the nuts with all he's got (because he's smart and tactical like that), and the former's attack power might be of a level so higher and the latter's defense so lower that one such attack might amount to a KO.

There are lots of scenarios that are possible, and the situation that Nnoitra might have, in fact, the strongest Hierro is one of them.

In a comic book, there is another way to state facts, and that is to demonstrate them.
This is true, and in such cases, the statements should be interpreted in a way that is consistent with it.

For example, Hitsugaya's Bankai.

It was stated that his Bankai forcefully disengages after the petals run out. It did. After some time, however, Hitsugaya is able to use it again, saying that as long as there was water in the atmosphere, his Bankai can regenerate.

Therefore, the statement that his Bankai disappears should not be interpreted as "disappears forever". It is only that, because Hitsugaya's Bankai is premature, he cannot use it for in such a long a state compared to others. Hitsugaya needs a break to recuperate from the reiatsu exhausted from maintaining Bankai for x amount of time. Then, he can use it again after doing so.

(:

[sweeter]

I don't know. I can't seem to let this go, but:
This is Nnoitora vs Ichigo so I'll stop arguing here.

(:

[Icestorm]

Ive got to say a something.. although Zomari has the fastest 'sonido' it does not mean he is the fastest Espada since sonido is a techinque and does not measure overall speed. Since characters do have an amount of speed without the use of sonido.. in other words.. the lead up to the use of sonido can change the very nature of how a characters speed is seen. Ulq may be faster than Zomari without using his sonido.

Oh and one question.. what is the difference between sonido and shunpo? Is it the sonic boom before hand? But basically what im getting at is the fact that although zomari was able to attack with his clones, that ability has not been seen in Bleach as of yet regardless of the speed of the character (think Ichigo) so what im getting at is that it could also be direct reaction with the difference between sonido and shunpo, not the speed difference.

[Decado]

http://forums.bleachportal.net/showthread.php?t=52567 : Hitsugaya's Bankai

/new thread created for this topic

/posts moved into that appropriate thread

You may continue... now being automatically on topic by going to that thread :)


Oh and one question.. what is the difference between sonido and shunpo?
Mastumoto states that it's the same thing, just with different names.

[Decado]

Yeah, but I'm afraid that qualifies as spam Byakuya87 :/

/post deleted

[Jay3205]

No but we saw her get injured, she didn't just say she did.We saw her *act* injured. If we pass off statements as non-fact and actions as having "alterior motives", then this can't be argued.

Yes. Yes he was, IN THAT SCENE.

It was already used to show that he was higher in rank than Grimmjow. And yes, that turned out to be true.No, you are making that assumption. He appeared, and nobody noticed him. It's happened plenty of times before. Tousen appeared from out of sight to stop Grimmjaw. Since being a vaizard doesn't give a powerup without the mask, there's no way Tousen could've improved from his prior level to that of Ulquiorra-like speed so quickly. Urahara and Yoruichi did the same to save Ichigo, yet they are admittedly not above Ulquiorra. Ichigo did it to save Inoue from Yammy. Even Hinamori/Renji/Kira did it to save Hisagi. All it shows is that the characters were too focused to notice a random person sneaking up on them.

Impossible. Kubo hasn't expanded on this at all, if it were the case.

1. He was between dimensions
2. Kubo used it to show Ulquiorra outmatched everyone there for movement (Grimmjow, Shinji, Ichigo and Rukia)
3. Used that scene to show he was stronger than Grimmjow
4. Was a pwn scene that must not be questioned for all the reasons aboveHow is it impossible?

1) He must've fully returned to Ichigo's dimension before surprising them. At this time, nobody sensed him. Considering how easily Ichigo, Hitsugaya, and Grimmjaw can sense other people's reiatsu (i.e. during Grimmjaw's first attack), it does not make sense that they would miss somebody as strong as Ulquiorra unless he hid his power. If Ulquiorra did NOT return to Ichigo's dimension, then this is not a feat of speed... just appearing from a different dimension.

2) I suppose Tousen in base form is also faster than bankai Ichigo... too fast for Grimmjaw to react to? Doubtful, since even vaizard powers don't help until he actually uses the mask (if he has one). People have come from off screen on many occasions; it shows that they are using the element of surprise, not that they are necessarily faster.

3) An opinion of the author's intent is not evidence. In Bleach, a stronger character never takes orders from a weaker character; this alone shows Ulquiorra is stronger. I could just as easily say "Ulquiorra hid his presence because he did not personally want/need to fight."


As for the actual topic, I would vote Ichigo as the winner. So far, Nnoitra has done nothing but rely on his hierro. Since it can be cut, Ichigo + mask can probably cut it.