[Manga spoilers] A Royal Battle-Aizen vs. Yamamoto

[anubis24354]

After realising how unbalancing the strength of these two guys are, I decided to take them out of the runnings for the Bleach Tournament. But, they deserve their chance to duke it out and see who will win.

Which of these two superpowered Shinigami will come out on top?

That's for you to decide.

Pick your alligence, the purging flame that leads the Gotei.

Or the dark illusion that (mis)guides the Espada.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

My opinion:
Personally I think Yamamoto would destroy Aizen. While Aizen probably does have some amazing raw strength and ability, Yama has hellacious experience and is obviously designed for using immense force. I think Aizen's strength lies in his ability to trick and decieve, which would be a bit difficult in a direct confrontation with Yama (assuming his age has wisened him well in the art of war).

[Greggle]

If Yamamoto could walk into Hueco Mundo right now and kill Aizen right now Bleach would be dead. Furthermore Aizen has the Hougyoku and will most likely gain Vaizard powers. I highly doubt Yamamoto can do that.

[Undying]

My vote Aizen.

Hypnosis + even more hypnosis = Yamamoto in trouble.

And while we don't know what their bankais do, we do know that Yamamoto's will probably be a massive fire-type offense (as a direct upgrade to his shikai).

On the other hand, we have no idea what is Aizen's bankai (what can be an upgrade to absolute hypnosis?), so this adds a different dimension to his power.

Also, with Aizen hybridizing himself, his chances of victory double (because perfect hybrid should be extremely powerful, and while we don't know whether Aizen is stronger or weaker than Yamamoto, we can deduce he's not too far from him so that hybridization wouldn't give him an edge).

So while Yamamoto may be more powerful, victory goes to the perfect hypnotism.

Oh and he's the main villain, so he's obviously stronger and will win - until Ichigo gets there.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Perfect Hypnotism is somewhat void when you can simply nuke the area around you.

[Undying]

Around you - but Aizen won't be anywhere "around" Yamamoto, as he will avoid his attacks until Yamamoto exhausts himself. On the other hand, as we've seen the illusions carry little to no cost on Aizen's energy.

[KholdStare]

If Yamamoto could walk into Hueco Mundo right now and kill Aizen right now Bleach would be dead. Furthermore Aizen has the Hougyoku and will most likely gain Vaizard powers. I highly doubt Yamamoto can do that.

This would be perfectly true if one thing were true: Aizen was the only person in Hueco Mundo.

If Yamamoto were to go into Hueco Mundo I highly doubt that everybody there would say "We'll give you a fair fight to fight Aizen". Yamamoto stands no chance against Aizen + 2 Captains + 10 Espadas + Several Privaron.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Around you - but Aizen won't be anywhere "around" Yamamoto, as he will avoid his attacks until Yamamoto exhausts himself. On the other hand, as we've seen the illusions carry little to no cost on Aizen's energy.

And we've seen Ryujinjakka drain Yamma's energy....


wait, where?

[silverwolf801]

Well i already made a thread on this http://forums.bleachportal.net/showthread.php?t=6343

[Undying]

And we've seen Ryujinjakka drain Yamma's energy....
wait, where?
Correction.

We have seen that Aizen used his hypnosis for a very lengthy amount of time with no apparent drain on him.

We have not seen Yamamoto fight. However, attacking tends to drain your energy.

[Seff vi Britannia]

for all we know, Yamma could swing Ryujinjakka around like it was nothing. xD

[Undying]

Swing it yes.

Pour his reiatsu into creating flames in order to kill Aizen, no.

Attacks, especially energy based ones, tend to waste up your energy.

[anubis24354]

Sorry Silver, I didn't realise you had done it already or I would have just bumped it up.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Swing it yes.

Pour his reiatsu into creating flames in order to kill Aizen, no.

Attacks, especially energy based ones, tend to waste up your energy.

but for all we know, Yamma could be the Kisame of the Bleach world. ^,^

[Undying]

So?

Even Kisame will get tired, eventually.

[Night Prowler]

Its obvious that Aizen is also smarter than Yamma as he was able to kill the whole of Central 46 and make it look like they were still alive without him knowing.

Aizen > Yamma, he's gonna have more power now as he could easierly be a Vaizard and probably could of been when he was a Captain and he also gained whats probably a stronger army in a shorter period of time.

[diamondedge]

for all we know, Yamma could swing Ryujinjakka around like it was nothing. xD
Since it would be tad foolish to go against Aizen in shikai, he'd certainly have to use bankai.

For all we know, fighters do tire. We haven't seen many bankai used for lenghty amount of time. But Ichigo for example, he tired. t was due to inexperience, but that doesn't mean one you master bankai you can go around and fight for infinite amount of time. In Bleach, pretty much any ability has some sort of countdown.

Experienced fighter will STILL get tired, they just become more endurable. To add to the point, even databooks say that Yamamoto's body endurance is considerably lower due to his old age.

Due to the fact that Aizen has already fooled him and the entire Soul Society (he had no idea of his schemes, so Aizen obviously knows what he is doing) he theoretically could walk him around like a dog until he drops dead, since his techniques are illusionary and don't exactly require a lot of body movement.

Unless Yama is a hero, scrapes out his eyes and we get something like final fight in Blood Sport. Since I support the idea of them fighting and Yamaoto getting killed, I certainty hope Kubo isn't to keen on Jean Claude Van Damme, because that's pretty much the only possible way right now that Aizen could be killed.

However, we have no idea of Aizen's bankai, but it shouldn't be drastically different from his shikai, because that wouldn't fir him image of the deceiver.

So yeah. Aizen. ^^

[xicidal]

As of now Yamamoto, but later on Aizen probably. The way I see if Aizen was already stronger the Yamamoto then he wouldn't have sought out more power.

[Guy]

I was disappointed that the previous thread got trashed. Now I can continue!

I believe Aizen would win atm. It might be a tough fight, but still, I say Aizen. Complete hypnosis means that Yamamoto might be fighting a fake Aizen in a fake Hueco Mundo. Complete hypnosis means that Aizen can fool Yamamoto into thinking he's perfectly healthy while in actuality Yama has lost too much blood in a fight.

Yama's reiatsu froze a lieutenant.
Aizen's reiatsu made Grimmjaw fall to his knees.
I think so far, Aizen is shown to be a bit superior.

Plus, the only character>Aizen will be Ichigo in shounen.

[Rainl]

This Is how I see it if it happens, they fight its pretty much even, ill give the slight edge to yamamoto, but his age catches with him, and isn't as durable as aizen, aizen wins by a hair on his ass.

[Nowitzki]

Yamamoto needs a massive area of effect attack to win, otherwise, Aizen can just throw illusion after illusion at him and eventually get a good strike in for the victory.

[Rainl]

Somehow I dont really see aizen's hypnosis winning this one for him, I think hell need more than that, seeing as yama, is old and very experienced and intelligent in fighting, I dont think he will fall for it very easy no need to mention his speed and power. He is captain commander for a reason, but I give the edge to aizen slightly seeing as of course he has to probably die for ichigo to come in and hes the oldest, but hey for me this one is a stalemate, the hardest fight to judge out of all in bleach.

[Rainl]

I was disappointed that the previous thread got trashed. Now I can continue!

I believe Aizen would win atm. It might be a tough fight, but still, I say Aizen. Complete hypnosis means that Yamamoto might be fighting a fake Aizen in a fake Hueco Mundo. Complete hypnosis means that Aizen can fool Yamamoto into thinking he's perfectly healthy while in actuality Yama has lost too much blood in a fight.

Yama's reiatsu froze a lieutenant.
Aizen's reiatsu made Grimmjaw fall to his knees.
I think so far, Aizen is shown to be a bit superior.

Plus, the only character>Aizen will be Ichigo in shounen.

If thats the case then,

Yama paralized a lieutenant.
Aizen dropped the number 6 espada.
Grimmjow the number 6 espada lost to ichigo.
Ichigo would get owned by shunsui or ukitake.
Yamamoto fought shunsui and ukitake at the same time, and came out without a scratch, while they came out injured.

So we could also say Yama would win, but its way way to close to tell, now since we haven't seen any of the 2 get serious.

[Undying]

Somehow I dont really see aizen's hypnosis winning this one for him, I think hell need more than that, seeing as yama, is old and very experienced and intelligent in fighting, I dont think he will fall for it very easy no need to mention his speed and power. He is captain commander for a reason, but I give the edge to aizen slightly seeing as of course he has to probably die for ichigo to come in and hes the oldest, but hey for me this one is a stalemate, the hardest fight to judge out of all in bleach.

There's no "fall for it". Aizen can create several illusions of himself. Yamamoto will have to beat down each one to find the real one, and the problem is that Aizen can keep spamming illusions for Yamamoto to waster his energy on.

Yammoto's only course of action would be not to attack and let Aizen come at him, but in this case the illusions can still be used to confuse Yama. The most he can do is simply try and burn everything around him, which should be extremely taxing.

Either way, Aizen's got this.

[Rainl]

Ill just say its a draw, since we don't have near enough evidence to say whos stronger than the other. Im sure yamamoto knows about his hypnosis ability by now. Now how hel'l counter it thats a different story. All will just have to wait.

[Nowitzki]

Ill just say its a draw, since we don't have near enough evidence to say whos stronger than the other. Im sure yamamoto knows about his hypnosis ability by now. Now how hel'l counter it thats a different story. All will just have to wait.

It doesn't matter if you know about it or not. There's nothing you can do to prevent it once you've seen it. You can fight with your eyes closed to avoid seeing the illusion, but if it emits reiatsu (which is unknown) that could plague your mind.

[Rainl]

Still see it as a draw. Until Ive seen both of them actually fight with all their abilities, I can't judge like I know, I don't have enough evidence yet.

[Minielf]

It's way too hard to decide who's stronger between Yamamoto and Aizen. Both of them are just so godly in power that they could pwn every other character in Bleach. We've barely seen what they're capable of. Yamamoto has a shikai that could probably burn everything around him with a radius of several miles, whilst Aizen of course has Absolute Hypnosis, but we don't know the extent of either shikai. And of course both of them have Bankai, which would definitely be even more haxxed. Also, both Yama and Aizen have likely reached the pinnacle in all areas of soul reaper combat, so both of them are likely to be godly with Kido, Hakuda and Hohou.

[Viva_ Shira]

Shouldn't this be in the manga section? The anime hasn't said anything or showed anything of this.

Anyways, i believe Yama will win, even tho i like aizen. But if the man was said to have been the only person to go to heaven, see god, and come back WTF? Well i haven't seens Yama's Shikai really so yea. For now i guess i'll change my Fan seat to Aizen"The Wanna Be Itachi"

[Jay3205]

At the current point in the story, I see Aizen winning. However, I suspect that Yamamoto will have some uber bankai effect or "secret technique from ancient times" that will make it so Aizen needs bankai to win.

I think plot-wise, they are more likely to fight to a temporary stalemate, after which Aizen would just continue his plans so Ichigo can beat him in the end.

[Vicent]

I vote for Aizen. Not because i thikn he is more powerfull that Yamamoto, since its been more that stated that they are in the same level. But because Aizen got more weapons under his sleve.

The hyogokou. The main reason Aizen stole wasnt to create an armie who would destroy SS, but to overcome the limist of a shinigami, wich he already have accomplished to the fullest. If he have used it on himself then his powers must be higher that Yamamoto´s, unfairly, but true.

Wow. the polls are 50-50

[Undying]

People think that brute force overpowers all =_=;.

Aizen holds every possible advantage in said fight. He has the hypnosis in place - he can make Yamamoto see clones of himself anywhere. Those illusions barely tax his energy, while Yamamoto would waste energy attacking that's not there. Or standing and waiting for Aizen's to attack, which leaves him completely open to simple flashstep+slash attacks which he won't be able to defend against properly because lo and behold, he'll see Aizen somewhere else, charging Kido or just standing and smiling.

Basically Yamamoto is screwed, the only way he could ever win is through plot and the "good guy must win" BS Kubo is going through.

[Kuroudo]

I'd say that Aizen is smarter than Yama but yet Yama is more powerful than Aizen it just seems like it i got a hunch that he is. Though their powerlevels are nearly the same. This battle is about to happen in the manga, so um we are going to see this one happen.

[Rainl]

People think that brute force overpowers all =_=;.

Aizen holds every possible advantage in said fight. He has the hypnosis in place - he can make Yamamoto see clones of himself anywhere. Those illusions barely tax his energy, while Yamamoto would waste energy attacking that's not there. Or standing and waiting for Aizen's to attack, which leaves him completely open to simple flashstep+slash attacks which he won't be able to defend against properly because lo and behold, he'll see Aizen somewhere else, charging Kido or just standing and smiling.

Basically Yamamoto is screwed, the only way he could ever win is through plot and the "good guy must win" BS Kubo is going through.


I'm quite sure Yamamoto has way more going for him than just plain dumb brute force, thats not exactly true seeing as if that were the case, Kenpachi would be on his level, which he clearly isn't. He wouldn't be the captain shinigami for just sheer power.

Basically whats implied and you put 2 and 2 together, he's more than likely to have reached the shinigami limit in every possible way years ago, which means he's mastered every ability, hand to hand, shunpo-no doubt about it seeing as he did out shunpo to captains who left about 7 seconds before he did.

Kidou of course, and swordsmanship-you wouldn't let a 1 class sword like ryujin jakka, get in to the hands of a mere novice, so its pretty easy to state he's mastered swordsmanship.

I wouldn't exactly say aizen has every possible advantage, in power or skill, but what gives him the win is his incredibly handy shikai, and another fact being that most likely Yamamoto isn't near durable as aizen, which means a long drawn out battle, will take a great toll on his energy.

[Undying]

I'm quite sure Yamamoto has way more going for him than just plain dumb brute force, thats not exactly true seeing as if that were the case, Kenpachi would be on his level, which he clearly isn't. He wouldn't be the captain shinigami for just sheer power.
Oh? Sheer power that burns all sounds like a very good excuse to be the top dog. Not to mention that yeah, he HAS more going for him - tactical thinking, intelligence, planning ahead, strategy.

Aizen has more of those + an ability that's better than Yamamoto's "I burn all" powers.

Basically whats implied and you put 2 and 2 together, he's more than likely to have reached the shinigami limit in every possible way years ago, which means he's mastered every ability, hand to hand, shunpo-no doubt about it seeing as he did out shunpo to captains who left about 7 seconds before he did.
Yeah it's confirmed by the databooks. It's also confirmed his stamina is wearing down due to old age. Aizen's doesn't. One more edge to Aizen.

Kidou of course, and swordsmanship-you wouldn't let a 1 class sword like ryujin jakka, get in to the hands of a mere novice, so its pretty easy to state he's mastered swordsmanship.
What does this have to do with anything? Swordsmanship won't come to play when he is hitting illusions.

I wouldn't exactly say aizen has every possible advantage, in power or skill, but what gives him the win is his incredibly handy shikai, and another fact being that most likely Yamamoto isn't near durable as aizen, which means a long drawn out battle, will take a great toll on his energy.
Aizen does have every possible advantage.

1. Planning ahead/strategy - he already proved his plans go further than anyone's anticipating and he is constantly manipulating everyone. Hell, he already had his escape planned out before Ichigo even reached Soul Society. He knew exactly what would Ichigo do from day one, since they saw each other in Soul Society. What's more, despite claiming having "no interest" in the "Ryoka boy", he in fact used him again to drag out 4 captains into HM. Yamamoto could only react to Aizen's planning and still managed to play into Aizen's hands.

2. Tactical thinking - we haven't really seen any of them battle, but based on the nature of their weapons, Aizen would HAVE to think in a tactical manner, as his sword is not offensive in nature. It compliments his abilities to the point he can fight with ease, but it does not grant him additional offensive powers, as opposed to Yamamoto's sword which is ALL offensive. Due to said nature, Yamamoto doesn't HAVE to think creatively, he can just burn. Hence, I will be surprised if he thought tactically (not that there's a lot of tactical thinking involved when you basically just burn everything around you).

3. Stamina - Yamamoto's is decreasing due to old age, while Aizen is still young. It's clear who holds the advantage.

4. Powers - Yamamoto's powers, while in a straight one-on-one duel are incredible and difficult to beat, are all but useless when he doesn't know WHAT he's hitting and WHAT to hit. Just try to imagine; he will be hitting buildings that look like Aizen, his comrades that look like Aizen, etc. And he won't even realize it, because he's under an illusion.

As I said, clear and obvious advantage on all sides. Aizen has this in his backpocket. Or would have, if it wasn't for the "good guys must win" BS. Hence Yamamoto will have the "secret technique my girlfriend taught me in high school" that beats hypnotism. It can even resist the dreaded "Boobs hypno spell level 80" women have. Now that's power.

[Kenken]

As I said, clear and obvious advantage on all sides. Aizen has this in his backpocket. Or would have, if it wasn't for the "good guys must win" BS. Hence Yamamoto will have the "secret technique my girlfriend taught me in high school" that beats hypnotism. It can even resist the dreaded "Boobs hypno spell level 80" women have. Now that's power.

It would be nice to see he doesn't have that. I mean he isn't Ichigo, and thus by law he can't defeat Aizen no matter what. I'm pretty sure he will lose, although whether he dies or not would still be sort of unclear...

And you said pretty much everything in favor of Aizen.

[Rainl]

Oh? Sheer power that burns all sounds like a very good excuse to be the top dog. Not to mention that yeah, he HAS more going for him - tactical thinking, intelligence, planning ahead, strategy.

Aizen has more of those + an ability that's better than Yamamoto's "I burn all" powers.


Yeah it's confirmed by the databooks. It's also confirmed his stamina is wearing down due to old age. Aizen's doesn't. One more edge to Aizen.

Yea, I gave him that edge at the end of my posts, saying thats one of the main reasons he'll win.

What does this have to do with anything? Swordsmanship won't come to play when he is hitting illusions.


Aizen does have every possible advantage.
1. Planning ahead/strategy - he already proved his plans go further than anyone's anticipating and he is constantly manipulating everyone. Hell, he already had his escape planned out before Ichigo even reached Soul Society. He knew exactly what would Ichigo do from day one, since they saw each other in Soul Society. What's more, despite claiming having "no interest" in the "Ryoka boy", he in fact used him again to drag out 4 captains into HM. Yamamoto could only react to Aizen's planning and still managed to play into Aizen's hands.

I don't really see how this strategy works in the heat of battle, however it did work in this case, when trying to carry out his plan to get the hougyoku, I don't think he has the ability to see premonitions, or what move Yama would make during a bout.

2. Tactical thinking - we haven't really seen any of them battle, but based on the nature of their weapons, Aizen would HAVE to think in a tactical manner, as his sword is not offensive in nature. It compliments his abilities to the point he can fight with ease, but it does not grant him additional offensive powers, as opposed to Yamamoto's sword which is ALL offensive. Due to said nature, Yamamoto doesn't HAVE to think creatively, he can just burn. Hence, I will be surprised if he thought tactically (not that there's a lot of tactical thinking involved when you basically just burn everything around you).

Your right we haven't seen any of them fight we've even seem a slender amount of action from yama. With that said in itself, I can't give the edge to either.

What would make you think Yama wouldn't use his head or creativity in a fight with so much experience, and just swing wildly like a madman?

3. Stamina - Yamamoto's is decreasing due to old age, while Aizen is still young. It's clear who holds the advantage.

I also gave him this edge and the other main reason at the end of my posts.

4. Powers - Yamamoto's powers, while in a straight one-on-one duel are incredible and difficult to beat, are all but useless when he doesn't know WHAT he's hitting and WHAT to hit. Just try to imagine; he will be hitting buildings that look like Aizen, his comrades that look like Aizen, etc. And he won't even realize it, because he's under an illusion.

Again, basically what I said in my above posts, about aizen not exactly being superior in power or skill, but his incredibly handy shikai.

As I said, clear and obvious advantage on all sides. Aizen has this in his backpocket. Or would have, if it wasn't for the "good guys must win" BS. Hence Yamamoto will have the "secret technique my girlfriend taught me in high school" that beats hypnotism. It can even resist the dreaded "Boobs hypno spell level 80" women have. Now that's power.


Ofc, again said that near the end of my other posts, yama will lose to aizen, I gave him that, No one is implied to beat him besides ichigo.

[Undying]

I don't really see how this strategy works in the heat of battle, however it did work in this case, when trying to carry out his plan to get the hougyoku, I don't think he has the ability to see premonitions, or what move Yama would make during a bout.
Reading your opponent/perfectly predicting your opponent's reactions is part of planning ahead. Aizen knew what EVERYONE would do months ahead. What makes you think he can't properly guess in a fight?

Your right we haven't seen any of them fight we've even seem a slender amount of action from yama. With that said in itself, I can't give the edge to either.
Wrong. We know their base abilities. Based on those we can say who holds the definite edge.

What would make you think Yama wouldn't use his head or creativity in a fight with so much experience, and just swing wildly like a madman?
I explained why, and also, I already clearly showed Aizen is the superior strategist and tactician, at least so far.

[Rainl]

Reading your opponent/perfectly predicting your opponent's reactions is part of planning ahead. Aizen knew what EVERYONE would do months ahead. What makes you think he can't properly guess in a fight?


Wrong. We know their base abilities. Based on those we can say who holds the definite edge.

No, we can't assume we know what the entirety or half of either ones abilities are, when we aren't given near substantial information required to make a precise judgement.


I explained why, and also, I already clearly showed Aizen is the superior strategist and tactician, at least so far.


Its the same with every manga or anime, HE is the main antagonists, its only right for the mastermind behind the whole concept, to be 5 steps beyond that of everyone.

[Undying]

No, we can't assume we know what the entirety or half of either ones abilities are, when we aren't given near substantial information required to make a precise judgement.
Fire and hypnotism. The rest only compliments their main abilities.


Its the same with every manga or anime, HE is the main antagonists, its only right for the mastermind behind the whole concept, to be 5 steps beyond that of everyone.
So? Does that mean he will become retarded in the fight against Yamamoto?

[Rainl]

Fire and hypnotism. The rest only compliments their main abilities.So? Does that mean he will become retarded in the fight against Yamamoto?

?I fail to see what your getting at. I said myself, I would give this fight to aizen, Im just simply stating he wouldn't exactly wtfpwn Yama, like nothing.

Although due to his extremely effective shikai it wouldn't be to terribly easy or terrbily difficult, like a fight between Ichigo or Grimmjow, where it boiled down to the wire.

I doubt a fight to the finish or a bout that suspensful would happen with the main antagonists and a outside character.

[Undying]

?I fail to see what your getting at. I said myself, I would give this fight to aizen, Im just simply stating he wouldn't exactly wtfpwn Yama, like nothing, but due to his extremely effective shikai it wouldn't be to terribly easy or terrbily difficult, like a fight between Ichigo or Grimmjow, where it boiled down to the wire.

I doubt a fight to the finish or a bout that suspensful would happen with the main antagonists and a outside character.
What I'm getting it is that you're saying Aizen's "genius" only applies to his planning. That and that we don't know their abilities. We do.

Anyway, I said Yamamoto is screwed against Aizen, but I doubt he'd just walk all over him. While most of Yamamoto's attacks are ineffective against good use of illusion, he still has enough options to at least damage Aizen, since he can't take him out with one attack.

[Rainl]

What I'm getting it is that you're saying Aizen's "genius" only applies to his planning. That and that we don't know their abilities. We do.

Anyway, I said Yamamoto is screwed against Aizen, but I doubt he'd just walk all over him. While most of Yamamoto's attacks are ineffective against good use of illusion, he still has enough options to at least damage Aizen, since he can't take him out with one attack.




Well, Maybe I comprehended the information you gave off, in a different perspective.

Seemed as if you made it as yama, had not a snowballs chance in hell of fighting with aizen.


BUT, I gets its safe to include, although I hate to admit it, Aizen-1 Yamamoto-0?-_-

[Rainl]

What I'm getting it is that you're saying Aizen's "genius" only applies to his planning. That and that we don't know their abilities. We do.

Anyway, I said Yamamoto is screwed against Aizen, but I doubt he'd just walk all over him. While most of Yamamoto's attacks are ineffective against good use of illusion, he still has enough options to at least damage Aizen, since he can't take him out with one attack.




Well, Maybe I comprehended the information you gave off, in a different perspective.

Seemed as if you made it as yama, had not a snowballs chance in hell of fighting with aizen.


BUT, I gets its safe to conclude, although I hate to admit it, Aizen-1 Yamamoto-0?-_-

[Rainl]

What I'm getting it is that you're saying Aizen's "genius" only applies to his planning. That and that we don't know their abilities. We do.

Anyway, I said Yamamoto is screwed against Aizen, but I doubt he'd just walk all over him. While most of Yamamoto's attacks are ineffective against good use of illusion, he still has enough options to at least damage Aizen, since he can't take him out with one attack.




Well, Maybe I comprehended the information you gave off, in a different perspective.

Seemed as if you made it as yama, had not a snowballs chance in hell of fighting with aizen.


BUT, I gets its safe to conclude, although I hate to admit it, Aizen-1 Yamamoto-0?-_-

[Rainl]

What I'm getting it is that you're saying Aizen's "genius" only applies to his planning. That and that we don't know their abilities. We do.

Anyway, I said Yamamoto is screwed against Aizen, but I doubt he'd just walk all over him. While most of Yamamoto's attacks are ineffective against good use of illusion, he still has enough options to at least damage Aizen, since he can't take him out with one attack.




Well, Maybe I comprehended the information you gave off, in a different perspective.

Seemed as if you made it as yama, had not a snowballs chance in hell of fighting with aizen.


BUT, I gets its safe to conclude, although I hate to admit it, Aizen-1 Yamamoto-0?-_-

[Rainl]

What I'm getting it is that you're saying Aizen's "genius" only applies to his planning. That and that we don't know their abilities. We do.

Anyway, I said Yamamoto is screwed against Aizen, but I doubt he'd just walk all over him. While most of Yamamoto's attacks are ineffective against good use of illusion, he still has enough options to at least damage Aizen, since he can't take him out with one attack.

Well, Maybe I comprehended the information you gave off, in a different perspective.
Seemed as if you made it as yama, had not a snowballs chance in hell of fighting with aizen.

[Stalk]

lol sorry for bumping such old thread but I just HAD to answer this or I wouldn't be in peace XD
Oh? Sheer power that burns all sounds like a very good excuse to be the top dog. Not to mention that yeah, he HAS more going for him - tactical thinking, intelligence, planning ahead, strategy.

Aizen has more of those + an ability that's better than Yamamoto's "I burn all" powers.

We haven't even seen Yamamoto fight all out or anything but I have a hard time believing the oldest&strongest shinigami alive has nothing up his sleeve other than "I burn all".

Yeah it's confirmed by the databooks. It's also confirmed his stamina is wearing down due to old age. Aizen's doesn't. One more edge to Aizen.

Yeah his poor stamina is likely a factor thus the key to defeat him would be outlasting him... but the databook also states Yamamoto has more of defense strength and mobility. I would say 'two more edges to Yama' as he seems to not getting the credit he deserves here, but unlike you, I don't like to point out the advantages of one side and completely ignore the other...

Aizen does have every possible advantage.

It's astoundly funny how you, once again, state some areas that Aizen supposedely has the advantage but conveniently 'forget' to mention those whose Yamamoto is the one with the upperhand: sheer power and experience.
Bias much?

Yamamoto could only react to Aizen's planning and still managed to play into Aizen's hands.

As a matter of fact, Aizen never tricked Yama personally. Tricking an organization is different than tricking an individual person and drastically different than tricking them in the middle of combat. Aizen's main tactic with his shikai is to create a perfect clone and combine that with his overwhelming speed to get in the first strike.
You were earlier suggesting that Aizen needs to simply 'create illusion to tire him up' lol he needed to draw his zan/use kidou to take on Hits&Komamura what makes you think he would defeat Yamamoto with his illusions alone.

Yamamoto doesn't HAVE to think creatively, he can just burn. Hence, I will be surprised if he thought tactically (not that there's a lot of tactical thinking involved when you basically just burn everything around you).

I won't. God knows how much fights he's been into, he MUST have had to think tactically once in his life. Don't forget he has kidou and maybe some trick we haven't heard of

4. Powers - Yamamoto's powers, while in a straight one-on-one duel are incredible and difficult to beat, are all but useless when he doesn't know WHAT he's hitting and WHAT to hit. Just try to imagine; he will be hitting buildings that look like Aizen, his comrades that look like Aizen, etc. And he won't even realize it, because he's under an illusion.

Though Aizen can control what he see, he cannot control how Yama would interpret an illusion. Yamamoto needs to simply waves his shikai in the immediate area around him, the true Aizen will sustain the heat, a clone won't. Unless of course Aizen can make his illusions as powerful as him, which would make him pretty much invincible.

lol sorry if I sound mean or anything but our points of view differ so much that I couldn't help myself :p

[Undying]

lol sorry for bumping such old thread but I just HAD to answer this or I wouldn't be in peace XD
My god, I forgot about this thread -_-'. Ok, I'll answer you... Keep in mind I don't yet have a formed opinion on who is really stronger and who will really win; I'm just answering your point with complete contradiction.

We haven't even seen Yamamoto fight all out or anything but I have a hard time believing the oldest&strongest shinigami alive has nothing up his sleeve other than "I burn all".
And what would it be? His power is fire, and fire's only attribute is it burning everything. Therefore it's a pretty logical conclusion that the power of fire grants its user the power to burn all. And he doesn't really need anything, he's got the highest attacking power ever. His age and assumed "strongest" status have little to do with the practical application of a flamethrower.

Yeah his poor stamina is likely a factor thus the key to defeat him would be outlasting him... but the databook also states Yamamoto has more of defense strength and mobility. I would say 'two more edges to Yama' as he seems to not getting the credit he deserves here, but unlike you, I don't like to point out the advantages of one side and completely ignore the other...
What advantages does Yama have over a power that will make him see, hear, feel, taste, and smell an illusion? His abilities are completely one-dimensional, but its useless because he cannot properly fight someone who will be using illusions. He might attack a wall or a comrade and think it's Aizen. He has nothing against it - so Aizen has the advantages.

And remember we have no idea what can Aizen's bankai be, while we have a pretty good idea about Yamamoto's bankai - more fire. Just as with every other bankai, it would be a direct evolution of the shikai. The only problem with Aizen is that I can't quite see how "absolute hypnosis" can evolve further - it's already a perfect illusion.

It's astoundly funny how you, once again, state some areas that Aizen supposedely has the advantage but conveniently 'forget' to mention those whose Yamamoto is the one with the upperhand: sheer power and experience.
Bias much?
Experience means nothing, as is very well proven by pretty much ever single character in the show - Gin the newbie is stronger than half his peers, everyone knows about Hitsugaya's vaunted power and so many people whack off to it, vice-captain Aizen outsmarted captain Shinji, and so on and so forth. And we haven't even started about Ichigo. And as for power - we've no proof whatsoever that Yamamoto is stronger. If you want to get technical, Aizen showed a more impressive feat than Yama when it came to just power: Yama brought down Nanao with a glare. Aizen brought down Grimmjow with a sly smile.


As a matter of fact, Aizen never tricked Yama personally. Tricking an organization is different than tricking an individual person and drastically different than tricking them in the middle of combat. Aizen's main tactic with his shikai is to create a perfect clone and combine that with his overwhelming speed to get in the first strike.
Where was it stated Aizen uses his shikai in combat? Thus far he only used speed and afterimages, something every speed-specialist could do. Even the newbie Ichigo.

Also, yes, tricking in the middle of a combat is different, but unlike Yama's straightforward single-dimension ability (burn all), Aizen has to naturally think creatively with his weapon since it seems to lack natural offensive capabilities. Therefore naturally Aizen would develop a greater sense for deception, whether on a organization scale or a personal scale.

Another advantage for Aizen.
You were earlier suggesting that Aizen needs to simply 'create illusion to tire him up' lol he needed to draw his zan/use kidou to take on Hits&Komamura what makes you think he would defeat Yamamoto with his illusions alone.
Because against Hitsugaya and Komamura, Aizen didn't need anything. He just needed to attack them once and they were destroyed. On the other hand against Yama, Aizen would need to be a more deceptive attacker.

Also as you yourself worded, I was suggesting - it won't necessarily work but it's just one strategy I would use if I were in Aizen's shoes. Draining my opponent of energy and tiring them is an obvious choice when I have the perfect weapon to that effect. It'll also give me time to decide how to tackle an offensive power of that scale.

I won't. God knows how much fights he's been into, he MUST have had to think tactically once in his life. Don't forget he has kidou and maybe some trick we haven't heard of
Oh? Why? Do you bother thinking tactically when you have an eternal flamethrower you can just keep firing until you become tired? You don't need to think tactically or creatively when your offensive power is by nature opposed to tactical thinking.

Also, "how many fights he's been into" - how many would that be? Who's to say he really fought that much? Maybe he fought twice in his whole life? Maybe he fought more than Kenpachi on a bad day? Since we've no evidence to that, we cannot use it to gauge his supposed tactical thinking. We can only go by his existing weapon and abilities - and they do not require tactical or strategic thinking.

Though Aizen can control what he see, he cannot control how Yama would interpret an illusion. Yamamoto needs to simply waves his shikai in the immediate area around him, the true Aizen will sustain the heat, a clone won't. Unless of course Aizen can make his illusions as powerful as him, which would make him pretty much invincible.
Huh? An illusion doesn't have any power. Aizen can make Yama see Aizen standing in the middle of the flames, completely unaffected. He of course apparently needs some sort of an object to be there in order to maintain the illusion (as shown by latest chapters, he actually set a person to appear as him, which indicates his illusion requires something to show on), that does not mean the illusion will be damaged by Yama's attack.

Anyway, this is a hypothetical battle situation - if they fight in a featureless white room, Aizen would be in a problem and would have to rely on his own power to fight rather than deception and trickery. On the other hand if they found in a dense forest who can tell what can he do? Maybe he'll make a burned tree appear as him and take Yama's attack while Aizen sneaks behind him and lops his head off.

But we can't tell since we don't see them fighting yet. All in all it's a very debatable situation which changes depending on the interpretation of events and situations. Whichever it is, we can't quite tell.

lol sorry if I sound mean or anything but our points of view differ so much that I couldn't help myself :p
You don't know what mean is... trust me mate, I define mean. Fortunately I keep my attitude and temper under control... well, for the most part.

[Stalk]

And what would it be? His power is fire, and fire's only attribute is it burning everything. Therefore it's a pretty logical conclusion that the power of fire grants its user the power to burn all. And he doesn't really need anything, he's got the highest attacking power ever. His age and assumed "strongest" status have little to do with the practical application of a flamethrower.

I wasn't talking about his shikai (or bankai). Yamamoto must have other form of offense i.e kidou or even hand-to-hand... who knows

What advantages does Yama have over a power that will make him see, hear, feel, taste, and smell an illusion? His abilities are completely one-dimensional, but its useless because he cannot properly fight someone who will be using illusions. He might attack a wall or a comrade and think it's Aizen. He has nothing against it - so Aizen has the advantages.

Obviously there has to be some sort of limit to Aizen's hypnosis, otherwise he could just walk into SS and kill everyone. So far we've only see him use illusions to fool people in combat by attacking or being distracted by an illusion. Aizen himself still cannot attack without revealing himself, i doubt Yama would fall victim so easily like Hitsugaya ( who was angry, less experience and had no prior knowledge of Aizen's ability to create illusions when they first encounter)

- it's already a perfect illusion.

Unohana suspected of it even when under 'perfect' illusion.
If you've read this week's chapter...
Aizen said that if Shinji had pay more attention, he would've realized the one following him wasn't Aizen since the beggining. His hypnosis HAS flaws and that should be obvious since he's bound to lose in the end.

Experience means nothing

Experience means nothing! Wow did you really mean that? Yamamoto's been in a whole (and obviously long) life of fights and lived through all of them to tell the tale. He likely faced a situation similar to what you're suggesting and knows how to deal with it.

Where was it stated Aizen uses his shikai in combat? Thus far he only used speed and afterimages, something every speed-specialist could do. Even the newbie Ichigo.

Erm... he did use illusion against Komamura. Chapter 176

Oh? Why? Do you bother thinking tactically when you have an eternal flamethrower you can just keep firing until you become tired? You don't need to think tactically or creatively when your offensive power is by nature opposed to tactical thinking.

His first option would be obviously scorching the immediate around but what I'm meaning to say and you're failing (hard) to realize is that Yama is a lived person and that he fighted a LOT. Who's to say he didn't face someone whose zanpakutou was water thus making him have to think tactically and use more than his fire to win...

Also, "how many fights he's been into" - how many would that be? Who's to say he really fought that much? Maybe he fought twice in his whole life? Maybe he fought more than Kenpachi on a bad day? Since we've no evidence to that, we cannot use it to gauge his supposed tactical thinking.

Kubo portrayed him as a damn old man and with scars all over his body for a reason. If this is not a hint that he has hundreds of fights in his curriculum then I don't know what it is...

Anyway, this is a hypothetical battle situation

I know. But speculating is half the fun isn't it? :p

You don't know what mean is

Hmm... yeah I do. That's why I got banned from two other forums and I'm here right now :whatevah:

[Undying]

I wasn't talking about his shikai (or bankai). Yamamoto must have other form of offense i.e kidou or even hand-to-hand... who knows
As would Aizen.

Obviously there has to be some sort of limit to Aizen's hypnosis, otherwise he could just walk into SS and kill everyone. So far we've only see him use illusions to fool people in combat by attacking or being distracted by an illusion. Aizen himself still cannot attack without revealing himself, i doubt Yama would fall victim so easily like Hitsugaya ( who was angry, less experience and had no prior knowledge of Aizen's ability to create illusions when they first encounter)
Aizen has never used hypnosis in battle to date; the only time he may have used was in the Komamura fight and I'm inclined to believe it was in fact speed alone.

Anyway, any attack reveals the attacker, that's a law. The problem is that he can use the illusion to make the opponent have openings while effectively dodging most if not all their offensive.

Unohana suspected of it even when under 'perfect' illusion.
If you've read this week's chapter...
Aizen said that if Shinji had pay more attention, he would've realized the one following him wasn't Aizen since the beggining. His hypnosis HAS flaws and that should be obvious since he's bound to lose in the end.
There's a very valid difference between a carefully examined situation in a time of peace rather than trying to discern what is real and what is not in the middle of a fight when you have no idea where the next attack will come from and a smiling, perfectly real opponent appears to be standing right next to you.

Experience means nothing! Wow did you really mean that? Yamamoto's been in a whole (and obviously long) life of fights and lived through all of them to tell the tale. He likely faced a situation similar to what you're suggesting and knows how to deal with it.
In Bleach, yes. Experience means nothing whatsoever. Also, there has not been a single ability in the manga so far that has the same attributes as Aizen's, so there's no reason to believe Yamamoto ever faced anything similar.

Erm... he did use illusion against Komamura. Chapter 176
It could be an after image. We have no way of knowing.

His first option would be obviously scorching the immediate around but what I'm meaning to say and you're failing (hard) to realize is that Yama is a lived person and that he fighted a LOT. Who's to say he didn't face someone whose zanpakutou was water thus making him have to think tactically and use more than his fire to win...
And you're failing hard to realize that fire has no other application other than burning. And if he actually faced someone who had a zanpakto which produced water and which did not evaporate at contact (a very convenient theory by you, but completely without any backing) it would still not match to someone whose entire personality and abilities are indicative of his mastery of deception.

Kubo portrayed him as a damn old man and with scars all over his body for a reason. If this is not a hint that he has hundreds of fights in his curriculum then I don't know what it is...
On fight, a hundred strikes. No evidence whatsoever to many fights. And even if he did fight a lot, there is little to no chance anyone at all has abilities similar to Aizen's. You have to remember that each zanpakto is unique to its wielder's personality and each person is unique, so there is no chance Yamamoto faced an absolute hypnosis from someone who potentially has more power than he.

I know. But speculating is half the fun isn't it? :p
No. Shooting down obvious holes in speculation is the real fun. Like what I do to your repeated "Yamamoto must've already seen it all" :whatevah:

Hmm... yeah I do. That's why I got banned from two other forums and I'm here right now :whatevah:
Yeah... I was punished 4 times for kicking all sorts of ass on this forum. You really have no idea what mean really is :rolleye09 I'm just keeping my cool for now.

[Stalk]

There's a very valid difference between a carefully examined situation in a time of peace rather than trying to discern what is real and what is not in the middle of a fight when you have no idea where the next attack will come from and a smiling, perfectly real opponent appears to be standing right next to you.

The same goes for Aizen. There's a huge difference between tricking people through a plan that took years to be executed and tricking in the heat of the battle. It's gonna take more than a cool head and nerves of steel to stand up against a serious attack from Yama's shikai this goes quintuple for his bankai. His reiatsu alone burns the enviroment, damn dude do you really think it'll be that easy for Aizen?

In Bleach, yes. Experience means nothing whatsoever.

Oh yeah, how dumb of me. Even in the possibility Yamamoto faced a hypnosis-related technic before, he will have completely forget about it, cause experience means nothing... All the years he spend training and kicking asses were all but useless cause... someone wants exp to be useless :whatevah:

And you're failing hard to realize that fire has no other application other than burning. And if he actually faced someone who had a zanpakto which produced water and which did not evaporate at contact (a very convenient theory by you, but completely without any backing) it would still not match to someone whose entire personality and abilities are indicative of his mastery of deception.

Can't you read? In the very sentence you quoted I made it very clear that likely, Yamamoto has something other than his fire to fight.

there is little to no chance anyone at all has abilities similar to Aizen's. You have to remember that each zanpakto is unique to its wielder's personality and each person is unique, so there is no chance Yamamoto faced an absolute hypnosis from someone who potentially has more power than he.

Then what's the point of saying that Yamamoto has the more powerful fire-type zan and Hitsu has the more powerful ice-type zan if they're all one of a kind?
And I'm not saying Yamamoto faced absolute hypnosis before but something SIMILAR, something that confuses his senses or his mind...lawl it must be the 3rd time I need to repeat this it's really that hard to understand what I'm trying to say? Please tell me, I'll work on my grammar.

No. Shooting down obvious holes in speculation is the real fun.

Hmm... that's probably the reason I'm lol'ing now

I'm just keeping my cool for now.

Bleh what are you waiting for, bring it on. Do you think I can't handle it? :banana2:

[Guy]

Oh yeah, how dumb of me. Even in the possibility Yamamoto faced a hypnosis-related technic before, he will have completely forget about it, cause experience means nothing... All the years he spend training and kicking asses were all but useless cause... someone wants exp to be useless

Ichigo would like to have a word with you... Gin would like to have a word with you.... I don't think experience means nothing, but I do know it sure as hell doesn't mean much in Bleach.

Anyways, I think this thread is purely speculation on Yamamoto's part. Granted, we haven't seen much of both parties, but we know almost nothing about Yama-jii's power. We've seen Aizen pwning people, but yet, all we know is that Yamamoto can burn stuff. That sounds kind of lame for the supposedly strongest shinigami, so I'm sure Yamamoto has a lot of other stuff to show us.

However, judging from what I've seen, Aizen seems to have shown more power.

[Stalk]

Ichigo would like to have a word with you... Gin would like to have a word with you.... I don't think experience means nothing, but I do know it sure as hell doesn't mean much in Bleach.

Don't misunderstand me, it's obvious prodigies can surpass older people in power. The whole point I'm trying to make to the dude I quoted, is that Yamamoto's experience will help him deal with most situations that pop up.

However, judging from what I've seen, Aizen seems to have shown more power.

He has shown more power. That doesn't mean he has more power.

[Rainl]

Sigh, damn this thread shouldn't have been revived, I won't get into this too much again because these debates always end the same, circular arguments ftw. As far as I'm concerned its a draw.


My god, I forgot about this thread -_-'. Ok, I'll answer you... Keep in mind I don't yet have a formed opinion on who is really stronger and who will really win; I'm just answering your point with complete contradiction.


And what would it be? His power is fire, and fire's only attribute is it burning everything. Therefore it's a pretty logical conclusion that the power of fire grants its user the power to burn all. And he doesn't really need anything, he's got the highest attacking power ever. His age and assumed "strongest" status have little to do with the practical application of a flamethrower.

We can only wonder what it would be like. So I won't even try to use his bankai as reassurance until given evidence. It isn't to hard to believe he's strongest in SS. He is the head of the Gotei afterall. The general usually is the strongest.


What advantages does Yama have over a power that will make him see, hear, feel, taste, and smell an illusion? His abilities are completely one-dimensional, but its useless because he cannot properly fight someone who will be using illusions. He might attack a wall or a comrade and think it's Aizen. He has nothing against it - so Aizen has the advantages.

No advantages have been shown to get past it, however its obvious that Aizen's shikai isn't unbeatable though. Seeing as Unohana and Shunsui noticed something wrong about his illusions, just not quite enough. Perhaps Yama would have more luck due to wisdom or experience. Although experience doesn't apply to the majority of fights so far, but we can only guess right now.:whatevah:

And remember we have no idea what can Aizen's bankai be, while we have a pretty good idea about Yamamoto's bankai - more fire. Just as with every other bankai, it would be a direct evolution of the shikai. The only problem with Aizen is that I can't quite see how "absolute hypnosis" can evolve further - it's already a perfect illusion.

I won't even get on Yama's bankai, Although I do think itll definately involve fire, but it still doesnt make since. If the shikai is already that massive and fire is so heavy, it can easily already turn anything the blade is waved over to ash. How could it possibly be stronger? Unless he gains something more than mere fire.


Experience means nothing, as is very well proven by pretty much ever single character in the show - Gin the newbie is stronger than half his peers, everyone knows about Hitsugaya's vaunted power and so many people whack off to it, vice-captain Aizen outsmarted captain Shinji, and so on and so forth. And we haven't even started about Ichigo. And as for power - we've no proof whatsoever that Yamamoto is stronger. If you want to get technical, Aizen showed a more impressive feat than Yama when it came to just power: Yama brought down Nanao with a glare. Aizen brought down Grimmjow with a sly smile.

True experience is pretty much void to the majority of fights shown. Look at Ichigo. Although this "experience" would maybe apply to the "Older" captains. Byakuya and Kenpachi or youngins. Agreed we have no proof of either Aizen or Yama being stronger than the other. Which is why these debates are pointless:whatevah:

Well Aizen didn't exaclty show a more impressive feat all together than Yama. Yes Aizen bringing down Grimmjow with reiatsu indicates he's strong as hell. It does beat Yamamoto bringing down Nanao, but also, Yama took on two captains who are said to be unequal to anyone else.

He fought both simultaneously and came out without a scratch while the other two did. We have no indication that Yama can bring down Grimmjow with his reiatsu alone. We also have no indication that Aizen can take on two elite captains and fair aswell as Yama did.



Where was it stated Aizen uses his shikai in combat? Thus far he only used speed and afterimages, something every speed-specialist could do. Even the newbie Ichigo.

Didn't he use it against Koma? I was under the impression he did, because there was no after image when he shunpoed toward Renji, but who knows.

Also, yes, tricking in the middle of a combat is different, but unlike Yama's straightforward single-dimension ability (burn all), Aizen has to naturally think creatively with his weapon since it seems to lack natural offensive capabilities. Therefore naturally Aizen would develop a greater sense for deception, whether on a organization scale or a personal scale.

Well you can't necessarily blame the guy if his swords is a huge flame thrower. However his sword is 1 dismensional, (well going by whats shown we havent seen much)Yama as a combatant is I think would be definately not 1 dismensional. 1 dismensional is someone like Zaraki.

Another advantage for Aizen.

Because against Hitsugaya and Komamura, Aizen didn't need anything. He just needed to attack them once and they were destroyed. On the other hand against Yama, Aizen would need to be a more deceptive attacker.

Also as you yourself worded, I was suggesting - it won't necessarily work but it's just one strategy I would use if I were in Aizen's shoes. Draining my opponent of energy and tiring them is an obvious choice when I have the perfect weapon to that effect. It'll also give me time to decide how to tackle an offensive power of that scale.

I agree, and that is the only way I see him haveing a chance. We all know Yama's durability isn't to high due to his age. Well seeing as he doesn't really need it when his Zan has 1 shot deal, written all over it. Battles dont last too long with him - .-.

Thats the same exact strategy I would take against Yama, but Aizen will need great speed to achieve this, because we don't necessarily know if Yama will fall so easily to each illusion. So he will definately need to be quick on his feet. Very quick, because it was also demonstrated Yama is definately not slow.


Oh? Why? Do you bother thinking tactically when you have an eternal flamethrower you can just keep firing until you become tired? You don't need to think tactically or creatively when your offensive power is by nature opposed to tactical thinking.

However you don't necessarily "need" to think with that much power. It doesn't mean he can't or he doesn't. A person thinking with that much power only makes him deadlier which may be his case.

Also, "how many fights he's been into" - how many would that be? Who's to say he really fought that much? Maybe he fought twice in his whole life? Maybe he fought more than Kenpachi on a bad day? Since we've no evidence to that, we cannot use it to gauge his supposed tactical thinking. We can only go by his existing weapon and abilities - and they do not require tactical or strategic thinking.

True we haven't seen him fighting we can only guess. As stated above we also don't have the evidence when he gets serious or comes down to a real fight he won't think. Only time will tell. Time needs to hurry up so we can finally settle this debate.:sad


Huh? An illusion doesn't have any power. Aizen can make Yama see Aizen standing in the middle of the flames, completely unaffected. He of course apparently needs some sort of an object to be there in order to maintain the illusion (as shown by latest chapters, he actually set a person to appear as him, which indicates his illusion requires something to show on), that does not mean the illusion will be damaged by Yama's attack.

Lol, although he can create an illusion. I don't see how itll work when the object he's using to cast the illusion will be turned to ash.

Anyway, this is a hypothetical battle situation - if they fight in a featureless white room, Aizen would be in a problem and would have to rely on his own power to fight rather than deception and trickery. On the other hand if they found in a dense forest who can tell what can he do? Maybe he'll make a burned tree appear as him and take Yama's attack while Aizen sneaks behind him and lops his head off.

Agreed this is gonna go on forever. White room-Aizen would definately be in a problem, I don't think is power can match Yama's. Forest-Won't be a forest. Itll be a forest fire, then everything is poof to ash:p.

Yea he could turn into a fire tree and get behind Yama, but can he actually get that close with all that fire surrounding Yama's body? Serious question.


But we can't tell since we don't see them fighting yet. All in all it's a very debatable situation which changes depending on the interpretation of events and situations. Whichever it is, we can't quite tell.

Agreed.

Conclusion=Draw.


You don't know what mean is... trust me mate, I define mean. Fortunately I keep my attitude and temper under control... well, for the most part.

:kamina:

[Guy]

Don't misunderstand me, it's obvious prodigies can surpass older people in power. The whole point I'm trying to make to the dude I quoted, is that Yamamoto's experience will help him deal with most situations that pop up.

Yama's "experience" didn't help him when Aizen got the Hougyoku and escaped to Hueco Mundo.



He has shown more power. That doesn't mean he has more power.

Which is why everything about Yama's power is pure speculation. I'm not saying Aizen takes this; I'm saying from what we've seen, Aizen is more powerful.

[Undying]

The same goes for Aizen. There's a huge difference between tricking people through a plan that took years to be executed and tricking in the heat of the battle. It's gonna take more than a cool head and nerves of steel to stand up against a serious attack from Yama's shikai this goes quintuple for his bankai. His reiatsu alone burns the enviroment, damn dude do you really think it'll be that easy for Aizen?
We have no idea what their bankais are. Maybe Aizen's bankai twists reality? Maybe Aizen's bankai is fragging Kubo Tite? He will simply erase Yama's flames with a flick of his almighty eraser.

Currently the debate is shikai only. For a person whose entire being is focused on deception, it is easier to deceive than a person who is focused on destructive power.

Also, it's a lot easier to trick someone in the heat of battle than in a plan that spans along a given amount of time because the victims have a chance to see through that plan over time, seeing as their lives aren't in immediate danger. Aizen admits that Shinji would've seen through his plot.

On the other hand when someone is concerned over their own life and is under the stress of combat, tricks become easier for those who are naturally inclined for them (such as Aizen-type personalities). More advanced feints and distractions are easier especially when your abilities are centered on it.

Oh yeah, how dumb of me. Even in the possibility Yamamoto faced a hypnosis-related technic before, he will have completely forget about it, cause experience means nothing... All the years he spend training and kicking asses were all but useless cause... someone wants exp to be useless :whatevah:
Yeah, dumb of you, because you're just tossing in random theories to help your side. Fact is, so far we've not heard of another ability similar to Aizen's, so the chances of there being one specifically for Yama to have the correct strategy because it's convenient for your argument are slim to none.

And yes, experience means nothing. Byakuya is a new in captains, and see how powerful he is. Urahara got bankai in three days and was a captain for 9 years. There's nothing to indicate experience is a deciding factor in combat.

Can't you read? In the very sentence you quoted I made it very clear that likely, Yamamoto has something other than his fire to fight.
Purest speculation :rolleye09. Does a flamethrower have any other applications than to shoot flames? Didn't think so.

So let's try to use something other than his weapon (removing the major offensive capability from the field? Genius...). Kidou? Can be nullified by Aizen using his own Kidou. Shunpo? Aizen can shunpo. And we cannot compare their speeds, so don't bother. Hand-to-hand? Ok, I admit it, you got me there, Yamamoto will be punching air while Aizen walks behind him and stabs him in the ass while shouting "Kyouka Suigetsu" instead of "April fools!".

Since the main offensive power will not be removed from the field, Yamamoto's only weapon is fire. Everything else is just supplementary abilities and cannot be considered primary weapons.

Then what's the point of saying that Yamamoto has the more powerful fire-type zan and Hitsu has the more powerful ice-type zan if they're all one of a kind?
There are two ice-type zanpaktos. Elemental abilities can be found in multiple personalities - hell, HINAMORI of all people shoots fireballs and petals. Those trains are not so unique. On the other hand a personality entirely devoted to deception is very rare.
And I'm not saying Yamamoto faced absolute hypnosis before but something SIMILAR, something that confuses his senses or his mind...lawl it must be the 3rd time I need to repeat this it's really that hard to understand what I'm trying to say? Please tell me, I'll work on my grammar.
I believe you should be working on your reading skills rather than your grammar. As I clearly stated, there has not been an ability similar to Aizen's as far as we know. Not HIS ability. A similar one.

Besides, there's not much similar to absolute hypnosis - either you've got the perfect illusion or you don't, it's pretty straightforward. And since Aizen's ability is a very unique one due to his unique personality (it's rare to see a person who is so perfectly deceptive) it's highly unlikely there's another one just because it'd be convenient for your argument.

Hmm... that's probably the reason I'm lol'ing now
Self pitying laughter?

Bleh what are you waiting for, bring it on. Do you think I can't handle it? :banana2:
I could care less about you. I do care about my own hide though, and I've no intention of getting into another war with half the forum on whether I should be banned or not.
Sigh, damn this thread shouldn't have been revived, I won't get into this too much again because these debates always end the same, circular arguments ftw. As far as I'm concerned its a draw.
Draw until new information is brought it. Maybe Aizen's bankai is Kubo Tite and maybe Yamamoto's bankai is the eraser :p.


We can only wonder what it would be like. So I won't even try to use his bankai as reassurance until given evidence. It isn't to hard to believe he's strongest in SS. He is the head of the Gotei afterall. The general usually is the strongest.
He's been stated to have the highest attack power and I've little reason to doubt it. Fire tends to be the most destructive elemental ability. Anyway, I'm in agreement with you that we shouldn't bother about their bankais since we've no knowledge what they are - oh, Yamamoto's may be more fire, but maybe something else, and I've no idea what can be better than the perfect illusion. Maybe reality twisting or brain control.

No advantages have been shown to get past it, however its obvious that Aizen's shikai isn't unbeatable though. Seeing as Unohana and Shunsui noticed something wrong about his illusions, just not quite enough. Perhaps Yama would have more luck due to wisdom or experience. Although experience doesn't apply to the majority of fights so far, but we can only guess right now.:whatevah:
Unohana noticed something was wrong over a complete examination during a peaceful time rather than under the stress of combat and danger to her life. Shunsui and Shinji both suspected something as well. And while the illusion itself is perfect, according to Aizen himself it can be seen through to an extent - the "Aizen" that followed Shinji would still look and feel like the real Aizen, but his behavior and speech would be subtly different, making it possible to know its an illusion.

But when you've got a sword flying to your face, it becomes more difficult to spot it. 'Course, it's beatable, but not easy to beat.

I won't even get on Yama's bankai, Although I do think itll definately involve fire, but it still doesnt make since. If the shikai is already that massive and fire is so heavy, it can easily already turn anything the blade is waved over to ash. How could it possibly be stronger? Unless he gains something more than mere fire.
Hotter fire. In most fire-oriented characters in anime I've seen thus far, there's some sort of an evolutionary advanced fire from space. Cold fire, vibrating fire, black fire, sentient fire... but it's still fire.

The same goes for Aizen's bankai too, so let's give that subject a rest until we've managed to see some action from them. I mean, for Aizen supporters the bankai could conveniently be Kubo Tite. For the Yama supporters the bankai could be the eraser that wipes Aizen's lines out of existence...

True experience is pretty much void to the majority of fights shown. Look at Ichigo. Although this "experience" would maybe apply to the "Older" captains. Byakuya and Kenpachi or youngins. Agreed we have no proof of either Aizen or Yama being stronger than the other. Which is why these debates are pointless:whatevah:
Every captain seems to be pretty much an inexperienced young twelp. Experience is void as far as we know, at least in Bleach. Of course, there are some things you can only learn in actual combat when it comes to fighting, but seeing as everyone in the Gotei saw enough fights in their lives, it's pointless to try and apply it as a deciding factor.

Well Aizen didn't exaclty show a more impressive feat all together than Yama. Yes Aizen bringing down Grimmjow with reiatsu indicates he's strong as hell. It does beat Yamamoto bringing down Nanao, but also, Yama took on two captains who are said to be unequal to anyone else.
Normally when you're not trying to kill someone your power tends to decrease dramatically and you might avoid strikes on purpose. Regardless, bringing Grimmjow down is a feat and all, but that doesn't make Aizen stronger than Yama. Yama could most likely do the same. The only way to really compare is if they both brought Grimmjow down to his knees and we could see the results. That or them fighting.

He fought both simultaneously and came out without a scratch while the other two did. We have no indication that Yama can bring down Grimmjow with his reiatsu alone. We also have no indication that Aizen can take on two elite captains and fair aswell as Yama did.
Those two captains were not trying to kill Yamamoto, and since he trained them he would know their movements, giving him an unfair advantage. So it's really pointless to use it as a feat as well, since as I said above, it shows nothing about their full power or arsenal of abilities which will ultimately be the deciding factor.

Didn't he use it against Koma? I was under the impression he did, because there was no after image when he shunpoed toward Renji, but who knows.
All Komamura (and so, we) saw was a "clone" or an "afterimage" of sorts that vanished while Aizen busily butchered Komamura. Whether it was his shikai ability or just him being that fast is anyone's guess.

Well you can't necessarily blame the guy if his swords is a huge flame thrower. However his sword is 1 dismensional, (well going by whats shown we havent seen much)Yama as a combatant is I think would be definately not 1 dismensional. 1 dismensional is someone like Zaraki.
Nah, Zaraki is what's scientifically called "one-trick clown". He's got one trick he knows, and that's to wave his sword about. He relies on just that.

Yamamoto has plenty of tricks (I'm certain he knows Kido and hand-to-hand combat at least, if not a master of those areas even compared to specializing fighters). His weapon is one dimensional, it's just a flamethrower. Supplementing abilities like Kido and other sides of shinigami power are just that, supplementary abilities. The zanpakto is the thing that makes the shinigami's power, and in Yama's case, it's one-dimensional. It's just a flamethrower.

I agree, and that is the only way I see him haveing a chance. We all know Yama's durability isn't to high due to his age. Well seeing as he doesn't really need it when his Zan has 1 shot deal, written all over it. Battles dont last too long with him - .-.

Thats the same exact strategy I would take against Yama, but Aizen will need great speed to achieve this, because we don't necessarily know if Yama will fall so easily to each illusion. So he will definately need to be quick on his feet. Very quick, because it was also demonstrated Yama is definately not slow.
We also do not know whether Aizen is capable of sustaining the heat. Maybe Aizen will get his ass kicked. Maybe not. Since we've no comparison of their strength and durability, we can't make a point here.

However you don't necessarily "need" to think with that much power. It doesn't mean he can't or he doesn't. A person thinking with that much power only makes him deadlier which may be his case.
The only problem is, there's no thinking involved. You either shoot the flamethrower or you don't. You could make a valid case that Yama can control the fire (which he hasn't done... yet), but it's still not tactical thinking. It's basically how you angle the flamethrower. It's still nowhere near the amount of tactical thinking Aizen simply has to do just to get the most out of his sword.

True we haven't seen him fighting we can only guess. As stated above we also don't have the evidence when he gets serious or comes down to a real fight he won't think. Only time will tell. Time needs to hurry up so we can finally settle this debate.:sad
Should be coming up when Kubo deigns to finish the flashbacks already.

Lol, although he can create an illusion. I don't see how itll work when the object he's using to cast the illusion will be turned to ash.
Objects that are burned instantly don't necessarily turn to ash, and Aizen only needs a stationary object anyway. Maybe ash is all he needs.

Agreed this is gonna go on forever. White room-Aizen would definately be in a problem, I don't think is power can match Yama's. Forest-Won't be a forest. Itll be a forest fire, then everything is poof to ash:p.
But still supplementing Aizen's abilities. Maybe white-room Aizen would have enough power to match to Yama. Maybe not.

Yea he could turn into a fire tree and get behind Yama, but can he actually get that close with all that fire surrounding Yama's body? Serious question.
Maybe. Maybe he could use Kidou to deflect some of the flames. Maybe he could do Sanosuke's tactic (from RK) and walk through the flames, get burned a bit and score a serious hit.

Agreed.

Conclusion=Draw.
But I'm pretty sure Yamamoto and Aizen supporters won't stop just because this is a draw from all sides...

:kamina:
:ninja:

[Stalk]

Yama's "experience" didn't help him when Aizen got the Hougyoku and escaped to Hueco Mundo.

Maybe cause Aizen's escape was through a plan that took years to be executed... We're talking about combat here. I hope you can see the difference...

Also, it's a lot easier to trick someone in the heat of battle than in a plan that spans along a given amount of time because the victims have a chance to see through that plan over time, seeing as their lives aren't in immediate danger. Aizen admits that Shinji would've seen through his plot.

A lot easier? There will be some opposition to Aizen, how can that be easier than he locked in a room giving orders... and in this specific case he will be surrounded by flames facing an incredibly powerful man.

Yeah, dumb of you, because you're just tossing in random theories to help your side.

Am I really the only one doing that? :rolleye09 Get serious

There's nothing to indicate experience is a deciding factor in combat.


In this case, IF Yamamoto ever faced something that confuses the senses like Aizen's zan, yeah it will be a factor.

Purest speculation :rolleye09

Oh yeah speculation. It's not common sense that the oldest&stongest shinigami alive, founder of the shinigami school is proficient or at least close to at all shinigami aspects. Byakuya has amazingly swordsmanship, footwork and kidou. Soifon kicks ass at both shunpo and hand-to-hand.
Yamamoto? Nah, all he does is "flaming around"...

Kidou? Can be nullified by Aizen using his own Kidou. Shunpo? Aizen can shunpo.

This is assuming they're absolutely identical which is unlikely.

Yamamoto will be punching air while Aizen walks behind him and stabs him in the ass while shouting "Kyouka Suigetsu" instead of "April fools!".

Now seriously, do you really think Aizen is that strong to get rid of the strongest fighter in the good guys that easily? Isn't there a tiny bit part of your mind that makes you think Aizen simply can't be that stronger than Yamamoto as he's bound to lose to Ichigo in the end...

Self pitying laugher?
...*asks the same question*

I could care less about you. I do care about my own hide though, and I've no intention of getting into another war with half the forum on whether I should be banned or not.

Whatever...you just sounded so tough with 'I was punished 4 times for kicking all sorts of ass on this forum. You really have no idea what mean really is I'm just keeping my cool for now' that I wanted to see how far you could go.
My video game is damaged as is my left leg, thus I can't play sports. This is my only source of fun you know.

[xxBluebird]

Aizen is a million times more crafty/sly/smart in general than Yama. I mean, he does all the cool plotting and stuff while Yama wasn't letting Ichigo go save his friend and was going to execute Rukia [maybe?] and is way too much of a goody-two-shoes rule follower xD

While Yama's Ryujin-jakka or something [>_<;;] is pretty cool, Aizen's Kyouka Suigetsu is a lot better because he can do all these cool illusions, like making Yama attack thin air while he just easily back-stabs him literally.

So power-wise, Yama > Aizen
But tactics, Aizen >>> Yama.

[Undying]

A lot easier? There will be some opposition to Aizen, how can that be easier than he locked in a room giving orders... and in this specific case he will be surrounded by flames facing an incredibly powerful man.
It's a lot easier to spot inconsistencies in behavior patterns and situations over a span of a hundred years than spot a faint in the mids of a life-and-death fight. This applies to both sides, but Aizen's got the advantage because he's a trickster by nature.

Am I really the only one doing that? :rolleye09 Get serious
I so far haven't theorized one thing :rolleye09. I only stated what we know of them - Aizen's a trickster by nature so he'll have the advantage in tricking, and he demonstrated more impressive power.

In this case, IF Yamamoto ever faced something that confuses the senses like Aizen's zan, yeah it will be a factor.
Keyword is is the big if. And since we've no reason to believe there was something like that, then it's not a factor until proven otherwise.

Oh yeah speculation. It's not common sense that the oldest&stongest shinigami alive, founder of the shinigami school is proficient or at least close to at all shinigami aspects. Byakuya has amazingly swordsmanship, footwork and kidou. Soifon kicks ass at both shunpo and hand-to-hand.
Yamamoto? Nah, all he does is "flaming around"...
So what? Aizen also reached his limits - or very near to them - as Yamamoto, so it's null. Besides, as I clearly stated in the continuation, you're removing the primary offensive power Yamamoto has. Good job, you just made him lose his primary offensive and rely on supplementary abilities while Aizen has his full arsenal, zanpakto included :rolleye09.

This is assuming they're absolutely identical which is unlikely.
Both are at their very limits. Aizen is younger. Is there any reason to believe their mastery of those varying abilities is any different? Of course, it's convenient for you to believe that while Aizen can only pull out 1/3 of Kidou Yamamoto obviously can pull out 100% of it, but that's another convenient theory.

As far as we know, they are even in all aspect, with Aizen still not having reached his full potential. And Aizen is younger, so his stamina is not yet declining.

Now seriously, do you really think Aizen is that strong to get rid of the strongest fighter in the good guys that easily? Isn't there a tiny bit part of your mind that makes you think Aizen simply can't be that stronger than Yamamoto as he's bound to lose to Ichigo in the end...
:rolleye09 If you've read my posts you'd notice I clearly stated I've no opinion in the matter and am just pointing out the holes in all your theories.

To answer your question, no, I don't believe that Aizen losing to Ichigo has any relevance to him being stronger than or weaker than Yamamoto. For one thing, Ichigo will have resolve on his side. For two, I've no problem believing that the protagonist will be stronger than all the old guys and the most powerful and experienced masters in existence. It's a well known, standard formula used in most shounen with the exception of some of the better ones.

So no, I don't believe there's a tiny speck of chance Aizen would lose. I go where facts take me, and fact is that Aizen demonstrated more impressive power and has full stamina. And he's a trickster by nature, thus giving him the advantage over Yamamoto in any given situation since Yamamoto's personality is by nature straightforward.

...*asks the same question*
If you haven't noticed, I'm not laughing at you... I'm enjoying seeing your convenience theories crumble like dust in the face of my correct statements.

Whatever...you just sounded so tough with 'I was punished 4 times for kicking all sorts of ass on this forum. You really have no idea what mean really is I'm just keeping my cool for now' that I wanted to see how far you could go.
My video game is damaged as is my left leg, thus I can't play sports. This is my only source of fun you know.
:rolleye09 You don't play sports if a video game hurt your leg. Your grasp on reality is obviously wanning already.

And yes, I've been demoted from Smod to Mod to user and then banned, then had (with help from good friends) beat the million haters I have on this forum. Trust when I say I can be mean... I just don't want to get banned because I can have guys like you to beat the living crap out of.

[Stalk]

It's a lot easier to spot inconsistencies in behavior patterns and situations over a span of a hundred years than spot a faint in the mids of a life-and-death fight. This applies to both sides, but Aizen's got the advantage because he's a trickster by nature.

Aizen's shikai doesn't have anymore the surprise factor it once had. SS already knows about it. Based on that, I thought of something. It'd be completely dumb if they enter an open war with such a weakness to the enemie's main and acquainted tactic. What if those captains in K-Town have achieve some way to counter Aizen's illusions..

Besides, as I clearly stated in the continuation, you're removing the primary offensive power Yamamoto has. Good job, you just made him lose his primary offensive and rely on supplementary abilities while Aizen has his full arsenal, zanpakto included :rolleye09.

Way to twist my words hm.. I'm saying that Yamamato COULD (not that he would) fight with something other than his fire, depending on the situation.

Both are at their very limits. Aizen is younger. Is there any reason to believe their mastery of those varying abilities is any different? Of course, it's convenient for you to believe that while Aizen can only pull out 1/3 of Kidou Yamamoto obviously can pull out 100% of it, but that's another convenient theory.

ROFL a convenient theory that I've never said or imlied.

As far as we know, they are even in all aspect, with Aizen still not having reached his full potential. And Aizen is younger, so his stamina is not yet declining.

No, there's nothing suggesting they're even at anything despite the databook if you take it seriously.

:rolleye09 If you've read my posts you'd notice I clearly stated I've no opinion in the matter and am just pointing out the holes in all your theories.

So no, I don't believe there's a tiny speck of chance Aizen would lose. I go where facts take me, and fact is that Aizen demonstrated more impressive power and has full stamina. And he's a trickster by nature, thus giving him the advantage over Yamamoto in any given situation since Yamamoto's personality is by nature straightforward.

I'd hardly call what you have "facts" especially when it's totally implausible Aizen's shikai is as infallible as you want it to be, based on the single fact that he won't be winner when it ends. I'm just speculating that, Yamamoto being one of the strongests there is, he may be the one to find a way around Aizen's tricks.

I'm enjoying seeing your convenience theories crumble like dust in the face of my correct statements.

Lawl how modest. I doubt even you have so much faith in your 'correct statements' as you make the impression.

And yes, I've been demoted from Smod to Mod to user and then banned, then had (with help from good friends) beat the million haters I have on this forum. Trust when I say I can be mean... I just don't want to get banned because I can have guys like you to beat the living crap out of.

:sad what a sad story... But be adviced it's gonna take more than that you're giving to 'beat the living crap out of me' since I'm taking all of this as nothing but a mere joke.
Lawl I didn't realize you take an internet forum that seriously. I may stop with it if you afraid getting banned.

[Undying]

Aizen's shikai doesn't have anymore the surprise factor it once had. SS already knows about it. Based on that, I thought of something. It'd be completely dumb if they enter an open war with such a weakness to the enemie's main and acquainted tactic. What if those captains in K-Town have achieve some way to counter Aizen's illusions..
You can counter an illusion if you see the flaws in it. For example, if you know that Aizen isn't standing right before you trying to take your neck out, you can ignore it and watch for other attacks. The problem is that Aizen by nature will have to strategically think, which gives him an automatic advantage over any fighter who doesn't have a weapon which demands strategic thinking simply by being. Therefore, even if they have some sort of a counter to the ability itself, it can still be used in combat.

Way to twist my words hm.. I'm saying that Yamamato COULD (not that he would) fight with something other than his fire, depending on the situation.
I already point out that there's no point in debating supplementary skills, because Aizen and Yamamoto may or may not possess equal measures in each.
ROFL a convenient theory that I've never said or imlied.
Oh, you implied it all right, by attempting to glorify Yamamoto. Fact of the matter is, we've no idea whether or not their varying skills are equal or not. We just know how high they are in reaching their personal potentials, but that doesn't give us a clue to their real powers.
No, there's nothing suggesting they're even at anything despite the databook if you take it seriously.
The databooks mentions their personal potential is maxed out, or nearly maxed out. This has little to no bearing on their actual power, since Hitsugaya has some areas very close to maxing out, but he's nowhere near Aizen's level.

I'd hardly call what you have "facts" especially when it's totally implausible Aizen's shikai is as infallible as you want it to be, based on the single fact that he won't be winner when it ends. I'm just speculating that, Yamamoto being one of the strongests there is, he may be the one to find a way around Aizen's tricks.
Once again, it's a convenient theory. Who is there to say that Yamamoto has the counter to Aizen's shikai? None. And I'm not implying Aizen's shikai is unbeatable. I repeatedly stated that Aizen's shikai demands strategic thinking. Due to him having to constantly find ways to fool his opponents, his tactical insight and strategy would be far greater than fighters whose weapons allow them not to think creatively in battle. That is Aizen's advantage.

Lawl how modest. I doubt even you have so much faith in your 'correct statements' as you make the impression.
Unlike you, when I say something I'm always correct. So it's not a question of faith, it's a question of me being right. Which I am, of course.

:sad what a sad story... But be adviced it's gonna take more than that you're giving to 'beat the living crap out of me' since I'm taking all of this as nothing but a mere joke.
Lawl I didn't realize you take an internet forum that seriously. I may stop with it if you afraid getting banned.
I don't take the Internet seriously. The rest of the people on this forum, however, do.

And I'm already kicking your ass, you're tossing in random statements in an attempt to counter my points. :toocool:

[KholdStare]

Trolling/Flaming posts have been deleted and the offenders have been notified. Any other posts like that will warrant an infraction.

[FullMetal Rebel]

How about we wait till the Winter War:winking56

[Rainl]

Agreed. These debates always end up the same, in a stalemate. Ill just wait before any more arguments rise up.

[vlady]

Here is the thing if Aizen loses it will make the last arc in a half pretty much a waste of time plus the flashback a waste of time Aizen is the master villian he has to win this one.

It also would not make since if the espada all get beat which is why I see stark and halibel living throw all this because if they do not it will make the espada look weak and a waste of time.

Now barrgan I think he is a filler espada much like luppi and le roux were.

[Lightey Natsume]

Ok I think Aizen takes this most likely becuase of his hypnosis and that is one of aizens most powerfull attackes so hypnosis overpowers yamma and aizen wins.

[IRLaughingMan]

Personaly these two are my least fav. characters and I want them both to die soon. Yamamoto is to old and dogmatic and Aizen's complete hypnosis is starting to get really really seriously old now! Buuuuut, since this is a discussion...

Kyōka Suigetsu's complete hypnosis is no more an attack than Unohana's shikai minazuke. Defeating Renji and a severely weakened Ichigo is not an immeasurable feat of strength in itself. Taking down Squad 7 Captain Sajin Komamura with a (failure) level 90 kido spell is impressive but not only did the spell not completely annihilate Komamura but it was also used against a captain that is low tier, mid tier at best.

The only other 'offensive' powers or power references are that Sōsuke Aizen is able to awaken the Hōgyoku using a necessary spiritual energy level of double that of an ordinary captain. I do not believe that Captain Commander Yamamoto is considered an ordinary captain, perhaps a double the power of a captain such as Kuchiki Byakuya. Finally we see Aizen using his skill to bring 6th Espada Grimmjow Jeagerjaques to his knees.

In my opinion Aizen's offensive powers have never really been tested. Aizen is a master of illusions, a Zanpakutō is an extension of a shinigami's inherent nature and ability, therefore it is plausible to say that not everything Aizen says is true. While deception is a powerful ability it is not proof of superior power, once Kyōka Suigetsu's power is broken there is, at this time, little evidence that Aizen could beat a captain on par with Captain Commander Yamamoto. Also considering this is shonen Aizen's Kyōka Suigetsu will eventually be broken somehow... most likely by Ichigo, but that remains to be seen.

In a strait skills and powers fight Yamamoto has Aizen beat, however considering Yamamoto's dogmatic narrow point of view and Aizen's fresh abstract thinking, planning, and deceptive skill and undoubted high power and skill he will defeat Yamamoto without needing to be purely more powerful.