Zaraki v.s. Grimmjow [Manga Spoilers]

[FullMetal Rebel]

Who would win?

[xicidal]

I'm going to wait tell after his current match to decide. Its stuff but personlly I think Grim would beat ken's current challenger.

[Undying]

IMO Grimm wins. Yeah, we see the current match in the manga, etc.

But. Unlike Grimmjow, Nnoitora hadn't shown speed, strength, offensive capabilities - nothing except loudmouth boasting. Therefore, from demonstrated capabilities - greater variety of Cero, apparently greater speed (or at least amazing speed), various offensive techniques (he can go long range and short range), and he looks way better.

So Grimmjow GMV, unless Zaraki pulls out a bankai.

[SenpaiRetsu]

Nope grimmy stands no chance, every since this battle i'm convinced that kubo is so in love with Zaraki, i'd say Zaraki>>>>everybody except espada 3 and up. Even that i'm not so sure of.

[diamondedge]

IMO, Zaraki.

Grimmjow MAY be fast, be he lacks the firepower for Zaraki. AoE is the answer, but if Zaraki can block Nnoitora's cero barehanded and Nnoitora (is supposedly) abolve Grimmjow I really don't see Grimmjow winning.

Seeing how Zaraki is taking damage right now, I believe he would laugh at Grimmjow trying to scratch him with such feeble heat.

[DarkSlayer]

IMO Grimm wins. Yeah, we see the current match in the manga, etc.

But. Unlike Grimmjow, Nnoitora hadn't shown speed, strength, offensive capabilities - nothing except loudmouth boasting. Therefore, from demonstrated capabilities - greater variety of Cero, apparently greater speed (or at least amazing speed), various offensive techniques (he can go long range and short range), and he looks way better.

So Grimmjow GMV, unless Zaraki pulls out a bankai.
IMO, Zaraki.

Grimmjow MAY be fast, be he lacks the firepower for Zaraki. AoE is the answer, but if Zaraki can block Nnoitora's cero barehanded and Nnoitora (is supposedly) abolve Grimmjow I really don't see Grimmjow winning.

Seeing how Zaraki is taking damage right now, I believe he would laugh at Grimmjow trying to scratch him with such feeble heat.
I think both opinions have their points, but as far as Grimmjow "scratching Zaraki with such feeble heat" - Grimmjow still has his release, whereas Zaraki does not.

Yeah, Zaraki could take off his eyepatch and go nutty, but Grimm still has wicked speed, ranged attacks, and he kicked the main character's ass several times.

The same main character who defeated Zaraki (Yes, yes, through Plotkai, I know.) could only give Grimmjow a run for his money AFTER he went Hollow for 11 seconds.

Granted Hueco Mundo is a bit different than Seireitei, and perhaps Hueco Mundo is giving Zaraki a power boost like it did for Chad, but I still think Grimmjow would win.

It would definetly be a good fight, though.

[diamondedge]

I'll post once I get to see how Zaraki fares against released Nnoitora (if he has one, that is), but I doubt my opinion will dramatically change. Nnoitora seems is a power fighter, and they rely on their strength. He is probably way to dumb to do something too hard for Zaraki to stomp on.

[silverwolf801]

man this getting out of control. I am beginning to stop thinking logically when it comes to this show. I like both of these guys but I still believe that grimmy will beat him. He has strength and speed and a super powered cero.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Zaraki is beating number 5, and number 5 is above number 6.

Yes, you could say "well Zomari would destroy Zaraki due to his haxed abilities and he is under Nnoitra", but Grimmjow dosen't have any "Haxed" abilities. He's pretty much the same kind of fighter as Nnoitra - though he relies slightly more on speed than strength, i guess.


So Zaraki.

[Undying]

Nnoitora's lack of offensive abilities makes him technically weaker than Grimmjow :).

[diamondedge]

According to your own theory, higher Espada rank means higher killing ability.
So that would mean if Nnoitora is ranked higher, his strength must make up for lesser agility.

Szayel's and Zomari's offensive techniques > Grimmjow, Nnoitora and Zaraki combined.

Which is DUMB.

[Dope Hat]

I'd say Zaraki.
For me Grimmjaw ist just another [tougher] Ichigo. And Ichigo got his ass wiped by Nnoitra.
Also, Nnoitra is one number ahead of Grimmjaw - means he is stronger [doesn't matter if he has technique, speed or strenght - he. is. stronger. - or he wouldn't be 5!]
And right now.....Nnoitra is getting his ass wipped by Kenpachi - who isn't even putting much efford into it.

[Undying]

According to your own theory, higher Espada rank means higher killing ability.
So that would mean if Nnoitora is ranked higher, his strength must make up for lesser agility.
Szayel's and Zomari's offensive techniques > Grimmjow, Nnoitora and Zaraki combined.
Which is DUMB.
Killing ability =/= power. Nnoitora's hardness makes up for his lack of everything else (and the fact he's a pretty careful fighter, until he faced Zaraki, which as we know had to be the fight where he loses).

So yeah, Nnoitora is ranked higher because his defenses are greater, therefor making up for lack of speed, technique, power, etc.

And because Kubo wanted to hype the story about Zaraki winning :rolleye09.

And um, explain to me how can Zomari control a beam of energy (Cero) or objects moving independently of any controlling force (his power isn't telekinesis, as we saw), and how will Szayel be able to stop someone from controlling his hand, etc.

So yeah.

@Dope: No. Rankings indicate greater killing ability. Zomari's killing ability is relatively low, as experienced fighters can outdo it and he can only control controllable objects (which means projectiles will be out of his ability to control unless they are controlled - for example he would not be able to stop an arrow from a Quincy or a spike from Grimmjow, as he cannot steal any "sovereignty" there). and Szayel's ability requires his opponent to stand and blabber - without proper preparation, Ishida would have killed him, which reduces his overall killing ability.

Therefore Nnoitora can be weaker, but thanks to his super-ultra-mega tough skinzor, his overall killing ability is greater.

So yeah, Grimmjow is a lot more powerful than Nnoitora, only less hard.

(That sounds wrong, y'know?)

[Dope Hat]

@Undying: ahhh okey thnx :)
[and yes - it sounded wrong xD]

[diamondedge]

Killing ability =/= power. Nnoitora's hardness makes up for his lack of everything else (and the fact he's a pretty careful fighter, until he faced Zaraki, which as we know had to be the fight where he loses).
So yeah, Nnoitora is ranked higher because his defenses are greater, therefor making up for lack of speed, technique, power, etc.

So, just because he has better defenses he is ranked higher, and is therefore considered stronger? That is some hardcore logic. xD

[Undying]

So, just because he has better defenses he is ranked higher, and is therefore considered stronger? That is some hardcore logic. xD
He is not considered stronger :).

Here's the logic:

He is almost impossible to cut (having an impossible hard armor), he can take a hit to the head with ZERO consequences (due to the hole), and he is very sneaky. That's why he can have a greater killing ability than Grimmjow.

He's not stronger.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Being able to take hits does not increase killing abilities.


Nnoitra is stronger than Grimmjow - physically.

A battle between Zaraki and Grimmjow would be a physical one - yes, Grimmjow has those arm spikes, but for the most part he fought in close combat while released.

Zaraki wins.

[Undying]

Not, being able to take hits doesn't increase your killing ability.

Being impossible to cut does :).

That's why Nnoitora is ranked higher - his armor is tougher than anyone, giving him an edge over any foe (since they will have to be able to cut through his skin first).

But in any terms of combat prowess, Grimmjow is superior. He's faster, he has more offensive capabilities (varying attacks, along with specializing abilities).

However, Nnoitora's killing ability is greater because of his sneakiness :).

[Seff vi Britannia]

Being impossible to cut increases your killing ability?


kill
1. to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.
2. to destroy; do away with; extinguish: His response killed our hopes.
3. to destroy or neutralize the active qualities of: to kill an odor.

It increases his survival ability, i think you'll find. I'd also quite like to see where Grimmjow is shown to be faster than Nnoitra.

[Undying]

In a fight, imagine you punch someone, but your first doesn't even cause damage, let alone deter him.

You are surprised.

Said individual stabs you in the eye.

You are dead.

Increased killing ability? Yes, very much so.

Nnoitora's sneakiness and overall tactical planning - when he's not blabbering over how impossible to cut he is and actually thinks - makes him a more "capable of killing" than people like Zaraki or Grimmjow.

Doesn't make him stronger - physically or otherwise - than Grimmjow.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Being impossible to cut does not kill someone. Simple as that.

It stops them killing you, but it dosen't kill them.

[Undying]

It also gives you a greater variety of options of killing, seeing as you have various new abilities.

Nnoitora is weaker than Grimmjow (demonstrated feats), simple as that.

He can simply kill better than Grimmy.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Nnoitora is weaker than Grimmjow

He can simply kill better than Grimmy.


Oxymoron.


Please tell me, Zaraki has overpowered Nnoitra physically, and stopped his cero with no effort. How does Grimmjow - also a physical-based fighter who uses cero, intend to overpower Zaraki when someone superior to him in his style of fighting is getting crushed by Zaraki?

[Undying]

Oxymoron.


Please tell me, Zaraki has overpowered Nnoitra physically, and stopped his cero with no effort. How does Grimmjow - also a physical-based fighter who uses cero, intend to overpower Zaraki when someone superior to him in his style of fighting is getting crushed by Zaraki?
Coughinsultscough

Grimmjow is a physical based fighter?

A fighter that has speed and uses it, has ranged attacks and uses them, has special techniques and uses them, has demonstrated more than "hard armor", is a physical fighter.

I strongly suggest you read the manga and pay attention to demonstrated feats.

Also, refer to my earlier posts.

Also, Nnoitora is not stronger than Grimmjow.

Here's your explanation how Grimmjow would overpower Zaraki. He is stronger. Nnoitora is weaker. :)

[ninjabot]

How does Noitora kill better than Grim without being stronger? If he had some sort of hax ability then ofcourse your statement would make sense, but seeing as it's never been shown in the manga that Noitora has any kind of ability that makes him better at killing than Grim other than the fact that he's one rank higher, I don't see how one can come to that conclusion.

Best Hierro only means he'll last longer in a fight than Grim would, not that it will help him kill his opponent faster or easier than Grim. Now, if Zaraki can deflect a cero, I'm sure he can cut down/deflect Grim's spikes with his sword.

[Undying]

Nnoitora kills better than Grimm without being stronger.

He is ranked higher, therefore his killing ability is better.

There is no strength involved in killing. Therefore, Grimmjow is stronger, while Nnoitora has better killing abilities. One does not stop the other.

How does Noitora kill better than Grim without being stronger? If he had some sort of hax ability then ofcourse your statement would make sense, but seeing as it's never been shown in the manga that Noitora has any kind of ability that makes him better at killing than Grim other than the fact that he's one rank higher, I don't see how one can come to that conclusion.
Rankings denote killing ability, that's all there is to it. Not power.
Best Hierro only means he'll last longer in a fight than Grim would, not that it will help him kill his opponent faster or easier than Grim. Now, if Zaraki can deflect a cero, I'm sure he can cut down/deflect Grim's spikes with his sword.
Oh?

And your proof comes from accurately knowing that Nnoitora's Ceros are stronger than Grimmjow's abilities?

Grimmjow has demonstrated far more power than Nnoitora did.

Therefore, Grimmjow is stronger.

However, Nnoitora can kill better than Grimm due to the fact he has the toughest armor (refer to my earlier post), his personality, and his fighting style.

He does not need to be stronger than Grimmjow to kill better.

[diamondedge]

What you say is true, but the author himself placed the Espada from 1 to 10, where 1 is strongest and 10 is weakest. So no matter what, Nnoitora is still technically stronger than Grimmjow.

[Axel]

Well going off whats shown so far I'm saying Zaraki but be closer then Nnoitora vs Zaraki is at moment. While Nnoitora has better defense in form of taking a hit, I don't think its a good case to compare the two espadas skin power considering Zaraki is showing he has overcome that anyway. A cut is a cut. Grimmjow has the other form of defense, evasion/speed. Nnoitora can cut Zaraki, Grimm release probably should be able to as well.

Concerning ceros Grimm seems more skilled with those compare to other arrancar shown so far. Used them even for defense plus he has that improve version, so wouldn't be surprising if his cero was at or a bit above Nnoitora's.

But theres two things that a Zaraki vs Grimmjow fight guarantees.
1. Lot of blood
2. Ichigo running to get as far away as possible from two psychos who might remember they want a rematch with him.

[Kuroudo]

Ever since Zaraki Appeared on the manga for the Nnorita vs Zaraki battle i knew Zaraki vs (someone) was coming.

I'd have to say a draw Grimmjow has something dosent have, Shunpo the only problem with this is that Zaraki is a juggernaut he wont go down no matter what you do with him. Currently he is wiping the floor with Nnorita so its clear has more than enough power to kill Grimmjow that is if Grimmjow dosent shunpo him to death.

[ninjabot]

Actually, my proof comes from the fact that Noitora is ranked higher. And I wouldn't call it proof per say, but logic. Of course Grim has shown the ability to cause more damage than Noitora. He released. Until Noitora releases we won't really know if he can deliver more damage than Grim. I'm willing to say he can though.

And Hierro doesn't really make you better at killing. Just better at surviving. Unless Noitora has a sort of AoE explosion ability that allows him to blow up the area around him, killing his opponent. Then, his Hierro would be helping him kill the opponent, because all he'd have to do is latch onto them, blow up the area and endure the explosion. That's the only way I can think of where unbreakable skin helps kill someone.

[DarkSlayer]

@Kuchiki San - I'm pretty sure there is another thread somewhere that argues whether or not Zaraki has Shunpo, and I think the conclusion was that Zaraki can use Shunpo, he just hasn't mastered it like Byakuya, Soi Fon, and Youruichi.

As stated in earlier posts, Zaraki is indeed wiping the floor with Nnoitora - a cheeky tank with less than impressive fighting skills. Also stated prior to my post is the fact that Nnoitora is primarily a physical fighter. Yes, he uses the occaisional Cero, but his Cero attacks are effortlessly blocked by Zaraki, making a head-on fight Nnoitora's best chance.

Grimmjow, on the other hand, shows incredible physical strength, and a versatile array of combat techniques. He's got Cero, his improved Cero (Too lazy to remember the name of the concentrated Cero), impressive speed, his release, and his greatest asset: HE DOESN'T BRAG/MONOLOGUE. He jumps right into the fray - kicking ass first and asking questions later. Only after he's beaten you down to the point of no return does he rub it in your face and laugh. Nnoitora tends to go on and on about how 1337 he (thinks he) is :rolleye09

I'm not saying it'd be an easy fight for Grimm, ohhh no. Zaraki would give him one hell of a run for his money, but in the end I think Grimm would come out on top.

[Axel]

And Hierro doesn't really make you better at killing. Just better at surviving. Unless Noitora has a sort of AoE explosion ability that allows him to blow up the area around him, killing his opponent. Then, his Hierro would be helping him kill the opponent, because all he'd have to do is latch onto them, blow up the area and endure the explosion. That's the only way I can think of where unbreakable skin helps kill someone.


Hopefully thats the case and hes not like the last espada who said hes the best at something then releases making that achievement pointless.

[Undying]

What you say is true, but the author himself placed the Espada from 1 to 10, where 1 is strongest and 10 is weakest. So no matter what, Nnoitora is still technically stronger than Grimmjow.
Actually, the author quite clearly stated that 1 has the biggest killing ability.

#9 was the "strongest", as he had 30K Hollows in one. 30K reiatsu things. So yeah...

Espada are not ranked by strength.

Actually, my proof comes from the fact that Noitora is ranked higher. And I wouldn't call it proof per say, but logic. Of course Grim has shown the ability to cause more damage than Noitora. He released. Until Noitora releases we won't really know if he can deliver more damage than Grim. I'm willing to say he can though.
I agree with you, however.

As I said, Espada are not ranked by power. They are ranked by the ambiguous term "killing ability", which is not as straightforward as "his power level is over 9000!".

Grimmjow may be able to deal more damage, or less damage, it doesn't matter - what matters is his combat capabilities. Grimmjow's demonstrated more combat capabilities and versatility than Nnoitora, up until now.

Or in simpler terms, he demonstrated more "power". His power level is higher, if you will. :).

However, Nnoitora clearly has the higher "killing ability" between the two. What can it be? Anything to do with his release, his sneakiness, his scheming, etc. But it does not necessarily point to a greater level of power.

That is where we disagree - you say that due to his lower (or higher, depending on how you look at it, be it number or "position") rank, Nnoitora has a greater level of power, as he hadn't demonstrated anything so far.

I, on the other hand, prefer to take it as a sign that he's in fact weaker, and relies on his juggernaut ability (super tough hide) to amplify his otherwise lacking killing capabilities (not fighting, killing). He is, therefore, ranked higher than Grimmjow, but he is weaker nonetheless.

And Hierro doesn't really make you better at killing. Just better at surviving. Unless Noitora has a sort of AoE explosion ability that allows him to blow up the area around him, killing his opponent. Then, his Hierro would be helping him kill the opponent, because all he'd have to do is latch onto them, blow up the area and endure the explosion. That's the only way I can think of where unbreakable skin helps kill someone.
Correct. However. As has been noted by several people already, Nnoitora is Zaraki's opposite - a juggernaut. What was Zaraki's main "strength" compared to Ichigo? His tough hide. Due to Zaraki's "immense" reiatsu compared to Ichigo at the time, Ichigo was unable to cut him.

That made Kenpachi a superior warrior. However, once Ichigo was able to cut him, he was able to fight on more even terms. When he was granted more power to supplement his lack, he was able to stalemate with/defeat Zaraki.

The same really applies here. Nnoitora has the toughest armor. His armor makes him superior to anyone unable to cut him, since he can - like Kenpachi - fight without getting hurt.

[davidn15]

Zaraki seems to have gotten stronger since his fight with Ichigo, but he is still nowhere nere being able to take on Grimmjow. Ichigo had trouble taking on Grimmjow in vaizard form. Ichigo in vaizard form is on par with byakuya, and to say Zaraki is stronger or equal to byakuya is absurd. So in conclusion, zaraki would lose, even though Grimmjow would face some difficulty. And this is coming from a zaraki fan so it means something...lol

[Zanga]

This discussion is about Manga Zaraki Davidn15, who is currently wiping the floor with someone whom' I will not mention. So to say Zaraki is 'no where near being able to take on Grimmjow' is completly wrong.

Ichigo in vaizard form is on par with byakuya

And what the hell are you smoking.


Anyways, I believe Zaraki would win, simply because I don't believe Grimmjaw can pack more physical power then Noitra does. Nothing says he does, nothign says he doesn't. If anything, there's is a point in the amnga where Ichigo comments on his immense strength, but that was when he was messed up hard so I guess that's not really valid.

And speed's not going to do anything if you dont have the power to back it up. And if Zaraki has mastered shikai, even Released Grimmjaw will have great trouble taking him out.

[diamondedge]

Zaraki seems to have gotten stronger since his fight with Ichigo, but he is still nowhere nere being able to take on Grimmjow. Ichigo had trouble taking on Grimmjow in vaizard form. Ichigo in vaizard form is on par with byakuya, and to say Zaraki is stronger or equal to byakuya is absurd. So in conclusion, zaraki would lose, even though Grimmjow would face some difficulty. And this is coming from a zaraki fan so it means something...lol
Actually, since 5,6,7 and 8th Espada are seemingly equal in power but not in abilities, and because they all fought with enemies similar to their own abilities including Ichigo. it's safe to say they actually outclass him, even in his vaizard form.

[smach]

lol zaraki buttrapes noitora n calls it practice, yet ppl still think grimjow will do much...even though we've already seen that ichigo's ability to cut espada and fend of ceros is nothing compared to zaraki, who - may i add - WAS YET TO REMOVE HIS EYEPATCH.

Nnoitora's lack of offensive abilities makes him technically weaker than Grimmjow :).but he makes up for it with his pansy-ass ability to turn himself into a virtually impenetrable punching bag...up to a certain point...:rolleye09

[Guy]

What kind of thread is this? XARAKI KENPACHI wins!!11!! yah, rofl lmao, yeah!! I mean, Zaraki is raping Noitora, who has the hardest hierro. If just ONE of Zaraki's hits slashes Grimmjaw, Grimmjaw will bleed to death. The only thing Grimmjaw really has is speed in this battle, but I doubt Noitora is a lot slower than Grimmjaw.

Let's see here: Cero=useless (Noitora's cero can't do sh*t)
Defense=useless (XARAKI can cut through ANY defense with EASE)
Offense=useless (Noitora is physically stronger than Zaraki, and he can't do jack)
speed=debateable. We don't know how Noitora's speed fares with Grimmjaw's.

From what we've seen, Zaraki>>>>>>>Noitora>Vizard ichigo MAXED with determination to save Nell and Orihime (ultimate plotkai tool)>Grimmjaw maxed.

[Undying]

Do people ignore me on purpose, misread what I write, and just go on with their own thoughts? Seriously =|

Nnoitora is weaker than Grimmjow.

Read my posts for reference.

And Nnoitora's Ceros are weaker, because Grimmjow can fire two Cero at once and has the Gran Ray Cero =|.
Actually, since 5,6,7 and 8th Espada are seemingly equal in power but not in abilities, and because they all fought with enemies similar to their own abilities including Ichigo. it's safe to say they actually outclass him, even in his vaizard form.
Equal in power? What the hell are you smokin', my dear dia?

So far Grimmjow demonstrated most power out of the 4.
but he makes up for it with his pansy-ass ability to turn himself into a virtually impenetrable punching bag...up to a certain point..
Which is what enables him to have a greater killing ability than Grimmjow, therefore he is ranked higher :).

Read my posts.

[diamondedge]

@Undy: I am taking their effectiveness into account, not just ability to hit and dodge.

Actually, yes, for my logic they are equal in power, because their powers are not all of the same type. Just because someone resorts to using body attacks with agility that doesn't make him more powerful than someone who can crush you in a second without even touching you.

[Undying]

@Undy: I am taking their effectiveness into account, not just ability to hit and dodge.
Actually, yes, for my logic they are equal in power, because their powers are not all of the same type. Just because someone resorts to using body attacks with agility that doesn't make him more powerful than someone who can crush you in a second without even touching you.
Then they are equal in fighting capabilities (or "equal as fighters").

Power = physical strength/reiatsu, for me. That way we can speak in the same terms (otherwise - we may not understand each other's arguments :)).

[Icestorm]

Ive said it before but i'll say again because I really believe its true. The numbers 8 till 5 are seperated by type differences, in my opinion that has been the only difference in fighting strength. I have to say that as the main character is inclined to be a speed based character.. Grimmjow has an advantage in the fact that kubo likes the idea of speed > everything. But thats not exactly a good show of who the likely victor would be.

But as far as I can gauge from this point Nnoitra's traits = Over confidence. And some strength.. which has been out matched by Kenpachi since there it is again the type versus type scenerio. At this point in time Grimmjows arsenal is so much greater that its laughable to think that Nnoitra holds a spot above 8. But that is so far of course. So at this time until ive seen him show any kind of ability that is good .. Grimmjow > Kenpachi/ Nnoitra.

[Seff vi Britannia]

All espada have access to the Gran Rey Cero, Undies. :)

[Undying]

All espada have access to the Gran Rey Cero, Undies. :)
No :).

Grimmjow said it is a technique only Espada can achieve, which does not mean all Espada posses. Therefore, no Fraccion will posses this technique.

[Seff vi Britannia]

I don't remember saying Fraccion would have it. - _ -

[Undying]

I don't remember saying Fraccion would have it. - _ -
Read my post again please.
Grimmjow said it is a technique only Espada can achieve, which does not mean all Espada posses.

I answered your post quite clearly.

[smach]

Offense=useless (Noitora is physically stronger than Zaraki, and he can't do jack)

From what we've seen, Zaraki>>>>>>>Noitora>Vizard ichigo MAXED with determination to save Nell and Orihime (ultimate plotkai tool)>Grimmjaw maxed.noitora's offense is stronger than zaraki's...how?

n also, u can't just conclude that noitora is stronger than ichigo coz:
- he was injured n exhausted by grimjow
- he couldn't even use the mask
- n don't forget about >>> THIS <<< (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/288/17/)

And Nnoitora's Ceros are weaker, because Grimmjow can fire two Cero at once and has the Gran Ray Cero =|.so grimjow fires two ceros at once n suddenly his are better...? he's done this only once, n what makes u believe that other espada like noitora can't do the same? this is as valid as my theory that ulquiorra's ceros are stronger coz they come from his fingertip.

http://img30.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000280/15.jpg

No :).

Grimmjow said it is a technique only Espada can achieve, which does not mean all Espada posses. Therefore, no Fraccion will posses this technique.lol i when was noitora was classified as a fraccion?

[Undying]

@Smach: learn to read, then come back.

[Seff vi Britannia]

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-280-page-19.html


Different scans say different things.


: /

Meh.

[smach]

Grimmjow said it is a technique only Espada can achieve, which does not mean all Espada posses.n due to grimjow saying only espada CAN achieve it, we can conclude with 101% accuracy that noitora can't make a gran rey cero. thank you maestro for taking it upon yourself to educate this poor incopetent soul. arigatou gozaimasu!!! :babies:

EDIT: >>> [Ju-Ni] - chapter 280 <<< (http://ju-ni.net/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&Itemid=45&page=inline&id=1996&catid=90&limitstart=16)

[Undying]

n due to grimjow saying only espada CAN achieve it, we can conclude with 101% accuracy that noitora can't make a gran rey cero. thank you maestro for taking it upon yourself to educate this poor incopetent soul. arigatou gozaimasu!!! :babies:
No.

We can assume with 101% accuracy that Nnoitora didn't use it so far, though.

Thank you pupil for failing to follow my clear instructions. Next time, it's going to hurt.

@Seff: "Only Espada are allowed to use" =/= all Espada have it.

[smach]

n that makes him stronger than noitora...yea right :rolleye09.

"Only Espada are allowed to use" =/= all Espada have it.so it would also be safe to conclude that since only the espada are allowed to use caja negacion, not all of them can use it...amirite? :babies:

[Undying]

n that makes him stronger than noitora...yea right :rolleye09.

so it would also be safe to conclude that since only the espada are allowed to use caja negacion, not all of them can use it...amirite? :babies:

Yes, why are you stating the obvious?

All Espada can have Fraccion =/= all Espada actually HAVE Fraccion.

And if you had actually bothered reading instead of making irrelevant comments, you'd realize I already covered what makes Grimmjow stronger than Nnoitora.

Quit making a fool out of yourself smach. Seriously.

[smach]

just coz u covered it doesn't make it fact/truth...
- if i say only police are allowed to speed on the roads, does that mean not all of them can?
- if i say only adults are allowed to drink n go clubbin, does that mean not all of them can?

EDIT: choosing or not to do something isn't coused by the inability to do it.

[Undying]

just coz u covered it doesn't make it fact/truth...
- if i say only police are allowed to speed on the roads, does that mean not all of them can?
- if i say only adults are allowed to drink n go clubbin, does that mean not all of them can?

Yes.

And yes.

Do you need more clarification?

[smach]

so because ulquiorra chose not to release when he buttraped ichigo, it means he can't release...i like your way of reasoning.

[Undying]

stop smokin that reefer, please...it seems to be having a bad effect on your judgement.

Oh? I'm smoking? Lrn2reed, lrn2think.

I can go out and drink.

I can, but I don't.

Same here.

Nnoitora can have Gran Ray Cero.

But he doesn't.

Enjoy.

[edit]Nice try.

Learn. To. Read.

Because Nnoitora can have Gran Ray Cero, it doesn't mean he has it.

Learn. To. Read.

I will stop being polite next post.

[smach]

I can go out and drink.
I can, but I don't.

Same here. NOT

Nnoitora can have Gran Ray Cero.
But he doesn't.u just disproved urself...:babies:


Because Nnoitora can have Gran Ray Cero, it doesn't mean he has it.lol it's a two-to-one scenario :rolleye09.
ch280
>>> bludshock <<< (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/280/15/)
>>> maximum7 <<< (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-280-page-19.html)
>>> ju-ni <<< (http://ju-ni.net/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&Itemid=45&page=inline&id=1996&catid=90&limitstart=16)

but hey, whatever floats ur boat...:toocool:.

http://i29.tinypic.com/347emfq.jpg

[Undying]

You have been warned. I will not be polite from this post forward.

Learn to read. You failed to read three scanlations you posted. But hey, whatever floats your boat... :whatevah:

Bldshock: "Something only Espada can accomplish" Grimmjow does not say all Espada must have Gran Ray Cero. What he says is that only Espada may have Gran Ray Cero.

Maximum7: "That only Espada are allowed to use" Grimmjow does not say that all Espada must have Gran Ray Cero, he says that only Espada are allowed to use it.

Ju-Ni: "Which only Espada are allowed to do" Grimmjow does not say that all Espada must have Gran Ray Cero. Grimmjow says that only Espada are allowed to to use it.

[smach]

well...i got assignments n other shit to take care of now...laterz :toocool:.

You have been warned. I will not be polite from this post forward.zomg here comes the bankai release...go on hitsugya! i'll play aizen or gin n let u unleash ur fury! :Haha

Learn to read. You failed to read three scanlations you posted. But hey, whatever floats your boat... :whatevah:ummm...

Bldshock: "Something only Espada can accomplish" Grimmjow does not say all Espada must have Gran Ray Cero. What he says is that only Espada may have Gran Ray Cero.

Maximum7: "That only Espada are allowed to use" Grimmjow does not say that all Espada must have Gran Ray Cero, he says that only Espada are allowed to use it.

Ju-Ni: "Which only Espada are allowed to do" Grimmjow does not say that all Espada must have Gran Ray Cero. Grimmjow says that only Espada are allowed to to use it.ur reasoning is...nvm, lemme hear what others have to say about this first...

all i'll add is this: it was stated that espada are allowed to use gran ray cero. that alone means they have the ability, AND aizen has granted them permission to use it. the permission is probably required coz of the amazing scale of the attack, which even takes some time to dissipate after its use. this fact was made evident by halibel n her fraccion.

to say that the other espada are not capable of using it simply because it hasn't been stated that they "must have gran ray cero" is illogical when you consider the fact that we've seen other espada use the other cero variations (ie bara and normal cero) without someone stating that they "must have" the particular technique.

[Night Prowler]

Grimmjaw, it just makes sense, speed + strength + long and short distance attacks > raw strength.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Nnoitra's weapon = long-ranged projectile weapon when he needs to.
Nnoitra also has the advantage of not loosing the use of a hand (or four) when using Cero.

And Grimmjow is faster than Nnoitra? You worked that out, how?

[diamondedge]

@smarch: What exactly do you not understand?

It's exactly as Undying said, if Espada CAN achieve it that doesn't mean that it has it by default.

Same thing with shumpo and Shinigami. It CAN be achieved but that doesn't mean a shinigami will have it as soon as he becomes one. Kenpachi is the perfect example of that. We know he has some sort of fast movement yet it can't be said with absolute certainty it actually is shumpo.

They may all have that usual cero but Gran Ray Cero is something NOBODY BUT Grimmjow has demonstrated, so we have no reason NOT to believe that ability is not available to him alone UNTIL we are proven otherwise Which so far, we haven't.

Translations or not, most of they say it's what Espada can use, and we have no reason not to believe that even if we abide by Bleach logic.

@Seff: Nnoitora has displayed any kind of hi speed movement like Grimmjow did WHERE?

[Undying]

Nnoitra's weapon = long-ranged projectile weapon when he needs to.
Which can be dodged fairly easily ;).
Nnoitra also has the advantage of not loosing the use of a hand (or four) when using Cero.

Grimmjow can fire two Cero from two directions :).
And Grimmjow is faster than Nnoitra? You worked that out, how?
Nnoitora is faster than Grimmjow? And you worked that out, how?

(Yeah, I'm turning your question against you, but only because I can't see another way to ask it that won't be completely direct)./

[Night Prowler]

@Jehuty: Nnotira's weapon is mid range at best, and release Grimmjaw's speed over Nnotira's unrealsed speed.

All Nnotira has to do is release and unless Zakari has Shi/Bankai then Zakari should lose.

Oh and my comparison was bewteen Grimmjaw and Zakari as thats the subject at hand.

[smach]

copied from last post:
it was stated that espada are allowed to use gran ray cero. that alone means they have the ability, AND aizen has granted them permission to use it. the permission is probably required coz of the amazing scale of the attack, which even takes some time to dissipate after its use. this fact was made evident by halibel n her fraccion.

to say that the other espada are not capable of using it simply because it hasn't been stated that they "must have gran ray cero" is illogical when you consider the fact that we've seen other espada use the other cero variations (ie bara and normal cero) without someone stating that they "must have" the particular technique.

@smarch: What exactly do you not understand?

It's exactly as Undying said, if Espada CAN achieve it that doesn't mean that it has it by default.n to that i say it depends on which translation(s) you chose to abide with. i choose the majority, who translated it as "allowed to use" and not "can use" although it's not that hard to see how it could be mistranslated. like i said before, it makes more sense to say they need permission because we've all seen how destructive the super-sized cero is.

Same thing with shumpo and Shinigami. It CAN be achieved but that doesn't mean a shinigami will have it as soon as he becomes one. Kenpachi is the perfect example of that. We know he has some sort of fast movement yet it can't be said with absolute certainty it actually is shumpo.something like shunpo/sonido/hirenkyaku has become a norm in bleach these days so i wouldn't rule out someone of high class as not being able to use such an technique. bankai on the other hand has been stated to be a unique technique that can be achieved by a priveledged few and we've seen the proof of that.

gran ray cero is said to be permitted to the espada only, not that they're the only ones who can achieve it. but then again...it depends on whose translation you choose to go with.

They may all have that usual cero but Gran Ray Cero is something NOBODY BUT Grimmjow has demonstrated, so we have no reason NOT to believe that ability is not available to him alone UNTIL we are proven otherwise Which so far, we haven't.IMO: if i state that only X-amount of people are allowed to use Y-abilities, that goes to show that they CAN use the ability.

Translations or not, most of they say it's what Espada can use, and we have no reason not to believe that even if we abide by Bleach logic.did u mean most of them? if so then please tell me who you're referring to coz i've seen two scanlation groups say ALLOWED and only one saying CAN:
http://img30.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000280/15.jpghttp://ju-ni.net/images/rsgallery/original/bleach-ch280-15.pnghttp://img.bleachexile.com/manga/bleach/280/M7_Bleach_Ch280_15.png

also, according to blud's scanlation, grimjow didn't narrow it down and say "only a few" or "only some" espada can do it, he said only espada can accomplish it, meaning there's no exceptions to the rule. unlike the case of someone like zaraki who was clearly stated to not have shikai nor bankai (but not shunpo), there's no hint or proof whatsoever that the other espada can't release the gran ray cero.

[Jay3205]

@smach & diamond: The actual line is "espada dake ni yurusareta saikyou no cero da". A 'literal' translation would be more like "the greatest cero that only the espada are forgiven for using". Being "forgiven for using it" is the same as being allowed, or at the very least means they can use it without being punished. The line does not have the meaning that only espada are "able to use/have the capability to use" gran cero. The translation difference probably comes from the "can/may" distinction that often is ignored in English.

[Undying]

@smach & diamond: The actual line is "espada dake ni yurusareta saikyou no cero da". A 'literal' translation would be more like "the greatest cero that only the espada are forgiven for using". Being "forgiven for using it" is the same as being allowed, or at the very least means they can use it without being punished. The line does not have the meaning that only espada are "able to use/have the capability to use" gran cero. The translation difference probably comes from the "can/may" distinction that often is ignored in English.
Which means, quite literally, that anyone can use Gran Ray Cero, not only Espada. Therefore, as this is not a technique that is limited to a given number of people, there are people who cannot use it among the Espada :).

Tl;dr I was right, in everyone's face :Domo

[smach]

Which means, quite literally, that anyone can use Gran Ray Cero, not only Espada. Therefore, as this is not a technique that is limited to a given number of people, there are people who cannot use it among the Espada :).

Tl;dr I was right, in everyone's face :Domoso, since there's no limit on the people who can use it, this justifies your claim that some espada can't use it...how??

[Night Prowler]

Doesnt matter anyway, doesnt change the fact that Zakari will lose against Grimmjaw.

[h3h3h3]

As much as I love the kitten. Zaraki with his next chp shikai rapes the kitteh.

[JimmyTbh]

Based on what ive seen Grimmy goes down as favorite. The only person who could truly answer this question is Tite Kubo :P, So really you can only say Grimmy the favourite.

Its like saying the patriots would win against the giants, The stats say yes but the outcome said no.

[Seff vi Britannia]

We'll know for sure in the next few chapters; when we see Zaraki's "kai" (or lack, thereof.)

[smach]

Based on what ive seen Grimmy goes down as favorite. The only person who could truly answer this question is Tite Kubo :P, So really you can only say Grimmy the favourite.

Its like saying the patriots would win against the giants, The stats say yes but the outcome said no.that was by far the best superbowl i've ever seen. patriots thought they were the shit n prolly were somewhat arrogant this season...then giants put brady on his ass at least six times...IN ONE GAME...u got no idea how shitty must've felt for them...

but that wouldn't work for someone like zaraki...he loves gettin his ass kicked around so if grimmy starts firing stakes you can rest assured that zaraki will..."get used to [their] hardness" n wtfpwn grimjow. that's all there is to it.

[MetalSpawn]

this battle sounds like the clash of two cocky egos.I say grim will win because he has more behind his cockyness zaraki wins most of his fights because he dulls the opponents mind with his insaneness but grim will relish in this and rise up to the challenge and own zaraki

[h3h3h3]

^You haven't read the manga. Zaraki rapes Grimmy so much.

[Karakura Red]

I guess we'll see if kenpaichi can beat Nnoitara, if he can then it possibly means that he can kill grimmjow because he is a lower rank then nnoitara.

[smach]

the only thing keeping him from finishing the job is the extra scythes that noitora keeps pulling out of his ass.

[Sin]

I gotta say on this one I don't think Zaraki would lose to Grimmjow, In my opinion the 5th espada will always have a greater reiatsu then the 6th. The 6th more then the 7th. Nnoitra did the one thing, we've never seen anyone do.... not even Ichigo. And that is to fight seriously. Plus nowhere does it state that Zaraki doesn't have Shunpo, give his massive reiatsu I think its fair to say the man can move pretty fast when he wants too. The questio is can Grimmjow force him to get serious enough to the point where he takes the fight seriously and uses his skills not just the hack and slash method!! So in my honest opinion id say Grimmjow Jaggerjack loses this bout but he would put a few scractches against Zaraki but in the end Zaraki is a freaking Demon and Grimmjow is just a blue cat.

[Jay3205]

^^True, but their abilities also play a heavy part in their victories. Nnoitora had all muscle and little tactics/speed, which played right into Zaraki's strengths. Similarly, the 8th espada was all brains and little battle power, which played right into Mayuri's strengths. Does that mean the Zaraki would beat the 8th espada? Doubtful, considering his abilities.

I'd place my money on Grimmjaw.

[Que Sera Sera]

^^True, but their abilities also play a heavy part in their victories. Nnoitora had all muscle and little tactics/speed, which played right into Zaraki's strengths. Similarly, the 8th espada was all brains and little battle power, which played right into Mayuri's strengths. Does that mean the Zaraki would beat the 8th espada? Doubtful, considering his abilities.

I'd place my money on Grimmjaw.

Little speed? Have you SEEN how fast he can move? And Zaraki is not a tactical and speedy guy. He's a guy who just swings his sword like manic and checks if his opponent is dead. If not he repeats this process until he does.

8th Espada didn't really "lose". He didn't even die yet. Far as we know, He's still standing there, a sword stuck into his head, waiting to die.

Personally Zaraki would totally own him:
1-He beat Nnoitora who was 5th. Grimmjaw is 6th.
2-We are told they are ranked in POWER. 5>6
3-While Ichigo had to go ALL out to kill Grimmy, Zaraki won when he remembered to use 2 hands while slashing >_>;;
4-Grimmy moves fast. Big deal. Nnony had many many arms, swinging at the same time, repeatedly. YET Zaraki didn't go down. If you think about that speed which he had to block all the attacks coming at him from many directions, You'd have to say that he would be fairly fast to block his attacks.
5-Zaraki has an immense amount of endurance. He nearly got killed yet he kepted fighting. Unlike Ichigo, When he gets hit, he doesn't have like 3 more slides showing him getting hurt. To Zaraki, a lethal blow would be like a scratch.

[Jay3205]

Zaraki has never displayed any significant speed, let alone speed above vaizard bankai Ichigo. That alone is a huge disadvantage. If you can't hit the opponent, you can't win, no matter how much stronger you are or how high your endurance is.

And for the record, the 8th espada is defeated. He's unable to defend or attack, possibly insane now, and poses no threat. He may not be dead, but it's because he was purposely spared.

1. One rank means very little, considering Zaraki's specialty was well-suited to beat Nnoitora. Zaraki has absolutely nothing he can do against the abilities of the 7th espada, seeing as he can't dodge the sight of 100 eyeballs, cover them up, nor attack from a distance. I guess this means Zaraki > 5th espada > 6th espada> 7th espada > Zaraki.

2. Power doesn't matter if you can't touch the opponent.

3. Grimmjaw's release gives him speed and strength. Considering Nnoitora needed 4 arms to block 1 of Zaraki's strikes, it appears his release doesn't give him speed or strength. Still, it doesn't matter since power doesn't help if he can't keep up with the opponent. There's nothing preventing Grimmjaw from doing to Zaraki what Ichigo did to Byakuya in the first attack.

4. Zaraki didn't block Nnoitora's 4 arms. He got cut up till he was going to bleed to death, then killed Nnoitora in blow. If he didn't end it in one blow, he would've blead to death. There's no reason Grimmjaw can't do the same considering his vastly superior speed.

5. High endurance doesn't make him win. It's like "the overly powerful yet slow video game character should beat the fast, weaker one" when 90% of the time it's the opposite. It just means he won't die as quickly, provided Grimmjaw doesn't start busting out ceros, elbow spikes, claw slashes, or any other special ability that he has and Nnoitora lacks/doesn't use. Then again, head removal is a guaranteed death which not even Zaraki could survive. Little by little, Zaraki will get beaten down.

[Sin]

Zaraki has never displayed any significant speed, let alone speed above vaizard bankai Ichigo. That alone is a huge disadvantage. If you can't hit the opponent, you can't win, no matter how much stronger you are or how high your endurance is.
Its a pretty much accepted fact in the bleach universe that the stronger you are the faster you are. And Zaraki all things considered is beast for a guy who can't properly uses his Shikai let alone bankai. So since speed is proportional to power, Zaraki is still fast. Plus in the match against Ichigo, Ichigo had to use all of Zangetsu's power which at the time included Ogichi to defeat Zaraki. Think about that!!
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/113/12/
if you don't believe me then the scan I just provided you, you can see it clearly the face of his hollow mask being displayed in his reiatsu... Zangetsu was using that power!
And for the record, the 8th espada is defeated. He's unable to defend or attack, possibly insane now, and poses no threat. He may not be dead, but it's because he was purposely spared.
No he's dead... I think they showed his body dissipating but his mind was still in tact which is very very wrong! for him like 100years had passed by and the sword was still in his hand.
1. One rank means very little, considering Zaraki's specialty was well-suited to beat Nnoitora. Zaraki has absolutely nothing he can do against the abilities of the 7th espada, seeing as he can't dodge the sight of 100 eyeballs, cover them up, nor attack from a distance. I guess this means Zaraki > 5th espada > 6th espada> 7th espada > Zaraki.
Just because Byakuya's pridefull but got cought in that doesn't mean that every capt would. Zomari's release gave him almost zero mobility. Most captains that one shunpo up to the sky and stab in through the top of his head and poof he's done. Byakuya probably didn't even need bankai his shikai would have done fine.
2. Power doesn't matter if you can't touch the opponent.
I disagree, Tousen's bankai is the perfect counter to that argument.
3. Grimmjaw's release gives him speed and strength. Considering Nnoitora needed 4 arms to block 1 of Zaraki's strikes, it appears his release doesn't give him speed or strength. Still, it doesn't matter since power doesn't help if he can't keep up with the opponent. There's nothing preventing Grimmjaw from doing to Zaraki what Ichigo did to Byakuya in the first attack.
Also for the record, Nnoitra had the hardes heiro so Zaraki used kendo to own it, Grimmjow probably doesn't have one at hard as Nnoitra given that there 4 more stronger then Nnoitra that probably have harder heiro's then Grimmjow yet Nnoitra surpassed them in hardness. Think on this, if you have perfect Armor how fast do you really care to go?

Bad argument, Grimmjow would have to come in to try to hit at least once. End result is maybe he gets away with it the first couple of times but eventually Zaraki catches his hand or whatever and concentrates a one hand slash that rocks Grimmjows world, its over!
4. Zaraki didn't block Nnoitora's 4 arms. He got cut up till he was going to bleed to death, then killed Nnoitora in blow. If he didn't end it in one blow, he would've blead to death. There's no reason Grimmjaw can't do the same considering his vastly superior speed.
Yeah there is, see above statements and I'll add. Grimmjow is fast, but your underestimating Zaraki's speed too. Plus Zaraki can only go as far as he is limited by the fact he doesn't know bankai let alone the proper use of his Shikai. But whenever he's wanted to move, he's moved and done it extremely well
5. High endurance doesn't make him win. It's like "the overly powerful yet slow video game character should beat the fast, weaker one" when 90% of the time it's the opposite. It just means he won't die as quickly, provided Grimmjaw doesn't start busting out ceros, elbow spikes, claw slashes, or any other special ability that he has and Nnoitora lacks/doesn't use. Then again, head removal is a guaranteed death which not even Zaraki could survive. Little by little, Zaraki will get beaten down.
I have a feeling all those attacks, Zaraki will take smiling while all the Cero's get brushed aside single handedly like Nnoitras were. As far as the head removal thing goes i think your day dream this is Zaraki we're talking about here man wake up! His skills are legendary, Imagine Zaraki in a fight where he's serious from min one? Grimmjow will die!

[SenpaiRetsu]

Zaraki would laugh at Grimmy's attacks. those claws would be like splinters. and the cero is useless, he'd take it and smile. Both Grimmy and Zaraki are melee fighters. Grimmjaw released needs to get in close to do the most damage with his claws because he doesn't have a sword when he's released. if he gets close to Zaraki GG, 2 hits and Grimmy is out for the count

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000310/17.jpg

Grimmjaw has no chance

[Jay3205]

Its a pretty much accepted fact in the bleach universe that the stronger you are the faster you are. And Zaraki all things considered is beast for a guy who can't properly uses his Shikai let alone bankai. So since speed is proportional to power, Zaraki is still fast. Plus in the match against Ichigo, Ichigo had to use all of Zangetsu's power which at the time included Ogichi to defeat Zaraki. Think about that!!
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/113/12/
if you don't believe me then the scan I just provided you, you can see it clearly the face of his hollow mask being displayed in his reiatsu... Zangetsu was using that power!I see the scan, but strong does not necessarily mean an equalivalent level of speed. Otherwise, there would be no title of "flash queen" or the "fastest espada"... the title would automatically go to the strongest shinigami and hollow. If power = speed, then it would mean (in terms of speed) ...

Zaraki speed> 5th espada > vaizard Ichigo > Grimmjaw > bankai Ichigo > 7th espada > shikai Ichigo speed = Zaraki speed.

There's many thing wrong with that order.

Just because Byakuya's pridefull but got cought in that doesn't mean that every capt would. Zomari's release gave him almost zero mobility. Most captains that one shunpo up to the sky and stab in through the top of his head and poof he's done. Byakuya probably didn't even need bankai his shikai would have done fine.True, but Zaraki has never shown that he is fast enough to dodge if Zomari opened all his eyes. Zaraki is the least likely captain to have the "I should dodge, even though I'm not being attacked" reaction, considering he never bothers to normally dodge. There's nothing stopping Zomari from simply moving too far for Zaraki to travel in 1 shunpo step and then releasing, making it impossible to dodge. Either way, that doesn't stop the 8th espada from having a doll of Zaraki and cutting its tendons to make it impossible to even move.

I disagree, Tousen's bankai is the perfect counter to that argument.How is it a counter? Zaraki's power didn't help until he figured out a way to locate Tousen. If Tousen were as fast as bankai Ichigo, Zaraki would be too slow to counterattack, making his struggle useless. If Tousen used kidou, then Zaraki's strategy would be useless.

Yeah there is, see above statements and I'll add. Grimmjow is fast, but your underestimating Zaraki's speed too. Plus Zaraki can only go as far as he is limited by the fact he doesn't know bankai let alone the proper use of his Shikai. But whenever he's wanted to move, he's moved and done it extremely wellZaraki may be fast, but he'd have to be as fast as vaizard bankai Ichigo to have a chance of counter-attacking, which there is no evidence of him being anywhere near that speed. Even if Zaraki were as fast as Byakuya, he'd be screwed. The fastest Zaraki has needed to move is move a few inches to avoid a fatal blow, which isn't a winning strategy if he can't counterattack effectively.

I have a feeling all those attacks, Zaraki will take smiling while all the Cero's get brushed aside single handedly like Nnoitras were. As far as the head removal thing goes i think your day dream this is Zaraki we're talking about here man wake up! His skills are legendary, Imagine Zaraki in a fight where he's serious from min one? Grimmjow will die!I severely doubt Zaraki is going to brush aside attacks that vaizard bankai Ichigo needs getsuga tenshou to handle. "Grand cero" is a great deal stronger than a normal cero.

As for head removal, who cares if it's Zaraki. Byakuya's skills are legendary and he's known for speed, yet it could've easily happened to him. Unless Zaraki is faster than vaizard bankai Ichigo, nothing stops that from happening to him.

Zaraki would laugh at Grimmy's attacks. those claws would be like splinters. and the cero is useless, he'd take it and smile. Both Grimmy and Zaraki are melee fighters. Grimmjaw released needs to get in close to do the most damage with his claws because he doesn't have a sword when he's released. if he gets close to Zaraki GG, 2 hits and Grimmy is out for the count"Gran cero" > cero. Those claws are more than strong enough to give Zaraki a severe injury. Every bladed attack used by a captain level opponent has cut Zaraki like a normal sword, and he only has so much blood to lose. Zaraki isn't going to "GG 2 hit" somebody who's as fast as (or faster than) vaizard Ichigo. The only way it makes sense that he can even counterattack is if he's significantly faster than Byakuya or on par with vaizard Ichigo's speed, which there is no evidence of.

I ask that if you plan on countering this argument, please provide a scan or reference to a place in the manga showing that Zaraki is as fast as vaizard Ichigo.

[Zanga]

Zaraki doens't have speed, but he sure as hell has mad instincts. For a fighter like Zaraki going around fighting every opponent who's worth a cut or two, you develop mad instincts.

All Zaraki really has to do is stand still and wait for Grimmjaw to come to him. I don't think his s/pike missiles are going to damage him, and it's pretty much a fact ceros aren't going to do much to Zaraki. And sure his claws can hurt him, but if VB Ichigo can see and catch Grimmjaw's arms(he did it twice), why won't Zaraki. And it's now about shunpo speed that is required to counter-attack against Grimmjaw, it's swing speed, and Zaraki can slice and massive boulder with the flick of his wrist, meaning his blade went through the entire boulder in half a second, and Zaraki's not going to lose track of Grimmjaw, so aslong as he knows the direction he's coming from, all he has to do is swing in that direction right?

[Jay3205]

^^ Well, Zaraki's blade doesn't need to go through an object to cut it. Otherwise, he could not cut down a building like he did. I also personally doubt Zaraki could 1-hand block a gran cero, but it definitely is a possibility.

I don't see why Zaraki would not lose track of Grimmjaw, since Byakuya lost track of Ichigo. Vaizard Ichigo caught Grimmjaw, but then again vaizard Ichigo is very fast. Although swing-speed is what's needed to counterattack, Grimmjaw and Ichigo both can attack at shunpo like speeds. For instance, Ichigo could cut Byakuya without Byakuya being fast enough to see it. To counterattack, it seems like he'd at least need to have reactions or speed much faster than Byakuya. There is no more evidence to support Zaraki being faster or having better reactions than Byakuya than there is for Mayuri being faster, but I never see anyone saying Mayuri is faster than Byakuya.

[Zanga]

I still doubt Zaraki would lose track of Grimmjaw.


Byakuya's speed is very high and might and all, but hey, Renji was capable of keeping track of Byakuya's shunpo for a very long time, it's just his body wasn' fast enough and we all know the difference between him and Byakuya, even after being able to move his body to block it.

And I also doubt Zaraki could stop a Gran Rey Cero, but correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont think any of the Espada have used a cero in their released form, so it could POSSIBLY mean they can't do it while released, but to assume that would kinda be stupid now that I think about it.

[KholdStare]

Although Zaraki himself may not be very fast, his instincts are. If he could block Tousen's attack while Tousen was in bankai without being able to even see, I think we can assume that he could block Grimmjow when he can see. He toyed with the captain who sliced off Grimmjow's arm in a single swipe. I think Zaraki has this one, one hit from his "kendo style" would send Grimmjow flying.

Noitora is like an exact copy of Zaraki except in espada form. Noitora could probably beat Grimmjow because he IS ranked higher than him. What would make you think that Zaraki couldn't beat Grimmjow when he is better than Noitora at what Noitora excels at most: physical strength.

[Zanga]

And Desagarrion(yeah I know, way off) probably wouldn't do anything to Zaraki either, since Ichigo himself simply(well, not simply) used his bankai's physical strength to break it. I'm sure Zaraki can easily smash those things.

[Jay3205]

If Grimmjaw is too fast for Zaraki to see, then it is safe to say that it will be too fast to react to. Considering a person's sight is always faster than their physical reaction, if the attack is too fast to see, he can't respond to it. Either way, dodging a normal-speed sword strike requires without seeing requires far slower reactions than dodging a super-sonic, too fast to see sword strike.

Also, the precise reason that Zaraki beat Nnoitora is because Zaraki got to use his specialty. If two slow, brute force characters take turns punching/cutting each other, the one with more strength and stamina will always win, aka Zaraki. If a slow character fights a significantly faster but weaker one, the slow character won't win if he can't hit the fast one. Even if he can somehow see someone who moves significantly faster than bankai Ichigo, that doesn't mean he can successfully land his own attack, especially considering kendo strikes mostly focus on attacking someone directly in front of you.

[SenpaiRetsu]

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000308/17.jpg

ummm.... yea a patched zaraki can pwn a cero with 1 bare hand. yea grimmy may have a chance

@Jay he doesn't need Kendo to beat grimmjaw. also he doesn't need to even see Grimmjaw we're all trying to say is that his reaction insticts are that much. as soon as he got scratched by a claw the'd grab grimmjaw's arm, and that'd basically be the end of that fight, just like it was for Tosen

[Jay3205]

ummm.... yea a patched zaraki can pwn a cero with 1 bare hand. yea grimmy may have a chance

@Jay he doesn't need Kendo to beat grimmjaw. also he doesn't need to even see Grimmjaw we're all trying to say is that his reaction insticts are that much. as soon as he got scratched by a claw the'd grab grimmjaw's arm, and that'd basically be the end of that fight, just like it was for TosenIf Grimmjaw is too fast to see, then Zaraki can't react, meaning he can't just grab his claw. That would be like somebody shooting you with a sniper rifle from 10 ft away and you somehow dodging without even knowing he fired.

Ichigo upon first meeting Byakuya, was so slow that he couldn't see Byakuya move or cut his blade in half. It is obvious that since he isn't fast enough to even see the attack, he isn't going to be fast enough to somehow counterattack. The same thing happened when bankai Ichigo attacked Byakuya. It seems you're saying that Zaraki will somehow be too slow to even see the attack or attacker, yet be able to react in the same situation.

[Sin]

If Grimmjaw is too fast to see, then Zaraki can't react, meaning he can't just grab his claw. That would be like somebody shooting you with a sniper rifle from 10 ft away and you somehow dodging without even knowing he fired.
But Grimmjow isn't too fast to see, he's just fast and because we haven't seen Kempachi Zaraki move fast doesn't mean he can't. Plus if it wasn't for his bells... Ichigo would have completely lost sight of him and he wasn't even trying.
Ichigo upon first meeting Byakuya, was so slow that he couldn't see Byakuya move or cut his blade in half. It is obvious that since he isn't fast enough to even see the attack, he isn't going to be fast enough to somehow counterattack. The same thing happened when bankai Ichigo attacked Byakuya. It seems you're saying that Zaraki will somehow be too slow to even see the attack or attacker, yet be able to react in the same situation.
So your saying that a rookie shinigami vs a Capt is like a Capt vs an espada who's lower then the one he already beat? Am i getting this right?:eek13:

Let's say for instance that Grimmjow is fast enough to completely avoid being seen? How is that different then when Zaraki couldn't see anything at all against Tousen? look who won that fight, your argument still fails.

Plus he is fast he said it himself he wears the bells to give his opponents a chance. So obviously he's fast, but he's masochistic and rather just take the hits which is why even though Ichigo attained bankai he still wouldn't fight Zaraki cause its not about the speed its about the hits

[Guy]

Normally, I'd say using Ichigo as a measuring device is STUPID, but other than Ichigo, sadly, we have no way of measuring Grimmjaw's strength.

Zaraki could take this one... provided that he's fast enough. I really don't want to believe that Zaraki is as fast as Vizard Ichigo, but since he did take down Noitora (he's gotta have some speed to do that), Zaraki probably could catch up with Grimmjaw. Zaraki's power is more than enough to beat Grimmjaw, though.

[Sin]

Plus if you remember the Fight with Nnoitra, he got kicked through 3buildings and was and pulled of speed comparable to Ichigo's speed after he recovered from that kick through the building. So really the speed argument is VOID because Zaraki IS FAST!!

[Guy]

Plus if you remember the Fight with Nnoitra, he got kicked through 3buildings and was and pulled of speed comparable to Ichigo's speed after he recovered from that kick through the building. So really the speed argument is VOID because Zaraki IS FAST!!

Oh please, it's not purely void. Grimmjaw's speed is significant because he is on par with Vizard Ichigo. Ichigo's bankai is basically PURE SPEED. Ichigo is a SPEED SPECIALIST, and since Grimmjaw is on par with Ichigo, that makes Grimmjaw a SPEED SPECIALIST. Nothing is mentioned about Noitora being a speed specialist; his specialty is his super hard hierro.

[Sin]

Which makes him relatively inferior to Nnoitra because kitty can run all he wants but can't do any serious damage to Nnoitra. The same Nnoitra Zaraki proved to be superior too. So kitty loses do demonic Riatsu all day because nothing he can do will severely hurt Zaraki and when he gets close all he will do its catch kitty's paws and slash away causing death of Kitty!!

Sorry guy it is void because as far as I can see he wasn't faster then Zomari or he would have had that title and Byakuya whooped his butt so speed specialist my arse!

[SenpaiRetsu]

Ichigo nor Grimmjaw are speed specialist. ichigo's bankai doesn't give him any special speed. It gives him a boost, but really his speed is just above average. if we use Byakuya as a measuring stick as a midtier captain. bankai Ichigo is JUST faster than him. not by a whole lot but definitely faster.

Ulq's base speed is faster than Vaizard bankai Ichigo. Stark's speed is clearly >>>>>>> bankai Ichigo by the way he snatched Orihime(though it's likely he teleported). Aizen was able to see and stop Ichigo with one finger and he was fast enough to 1 shot hitsugaya. Yama was fast enough to catch Shunsui and Ukitake effortlessly. I think it's pretty safe to say that Bankai or Vaizard Ichigo is mid-tier at best but definitely not in "S class" or even most "A class"

If Grimmy is the same in speed then his speed is average.

[Jay3205]

Even if we say Ichigo's speed is average for a mid-tier fighter, it must be above the other mid-tier captains by quite a bit if he can disappear from Byakuya and defeat his bankai through speed. I don't think it's fair to say people like Yamaji can outspeed Ichigo, as he can likely outspeed anyone who is not Aizen or upper espada, including Zaraki.

[Guy]

Which makes him relatively inferior to Nnoitra because kitty can run all he wants but can't do any serious damage to Nnoitra. The same Nnoitra Zaraki proved to be superior too. So kitty loses do demonic Riatsu all day because nothing he can do will severely hurt Zaraki and when he gets close all he will do its catch kitty's paws and slash away causing death of Kitty!!

You make it sound like as if I said Zaraki would lose. I did not say that; I merely said this is not as easy as you put it.

Sorry guy it is void because as far as I can see he wasn't faster then Zomari or he would have had that title and Byakuya whooped his butt so speed specialist my arse!


You're saying Grimmjaw and Noitora are faster than Zomari? That means Byakuya's speed is about Grimmjaw's speed, according to you. But Grimmjaw is at Vizard Ichigo's speed. Ichigo's speed isn't just faster than Byakuya's; it's so fast that Byakuya can't even see it. It's SKY that's as fast as Ichigo, and NOT Byakuya himself.

[Takeshi]

http://www.motifake.com/temp/c9eeb313d7.jpg


I believe this sums it up.

[Sin]

You make it sound like as if I said Zaraki would lose. I did not say that; I merely said this is not as easy as you put it.
No no, no worries mate!!! Not was hinting at anything just stating.
You're saying Grimmjaw and Noitora are faster than Zomari? That means Byakuya's speed is about Grimmjaw's speed, according to you. But Grimmjaw is at Vizard Ichigo's speed. Ichigo's speed isn't just faster than Byakuya's; it's so fast that Byakuya can't even see it. It's SKY that's as fast as Ichigo, and NOT Byakuya himself.
No, no way is grimmjow faster then Zomari. Zomari has the fastest movement that the eyes can't see amongst the espada. Byakuya isn't that fast he's versatile at his speed. As far as SKY that's as fast as Ichigo, SKY is BYAKUYA's power how can he not be as fast as his power???

Anyways there is only one true speed specialist in Bleach and that is Yorouichi, she holds the tittle GODDESS of FLASH so she's the fastest and i bet she has that for a reason, i am even willing to bet she could take Ichigo on any state he's in. That's what she specializes in!!

[Esca]

Pantera Grimmjow is FASTER than Vaizard Bankai Ichigo. How? Reread the chapters, he's significantly faster. Ichigo was only able to land hits when he grabbed Grimmjow and attacked.

Using Nnoitora > Grimmjow so Zaraki > Grimmjow is, to put it bluntly, idiotic. Rankings mean nothing.. if everyone fought the same way it'd make sense, but they don't.

DBZ can do the whole "Gohan > Cell > Goku" because they all fight the same way, while in Bleach, they don't. Nnoitora is not faster than Pantera Grimmjow so you cannot use the greater than/less than argument since he's ranked higher. I'm not saying he would win, but if you're going to state points, don't use something like that since it's void by the aforementioned facts.

[Sin]

Pantera Grimmjow is FASTER than Vaizard Bankai Ichigo. How? Reread the chapters, he's significantly faster. Ichigo was only able to land hits when he grabbed Grimmjow and attacked.

Using Nnoitora > Grimmjow so Zaraki > Grimmjow is, to put it bluntly, idiotic. Rankings mean nothing.. if everyone fought the same way it'd make sense, but they don't.

DBZ can do the whole "Gohan > Cell > Goku" because they all fight the same way, while in Bleach, they don't. Nnoitora is not faster than Pantera Grimmjow so you cannot use the greater than/less than argument since he's ranked higher. I'm not saying he would win, but if you're going to state points, don't use something like that since it's void by the aforementioned facts.
So your saying the guy who has the fastest sonido is slower? :eek13:

then your saying that the guy with the hardest hiero is weaker? :eek13:

and then your saying the guy who beat the guy with the hardest heiro would lose to the guy who's doesn't have the fastest sonido and doesn't have the hardest heiro?:eek13:

Personally i think Zaraki will win, they have a ranking for a reason... its obviously not the knights of the round table with them, Nnoitra is greater then Grimmjow for a reason and whatever that reason was Zaraki tore it down and i feel that the same will be done with Grimmjow because he is stronger then all of them. There is a difference in power between Zaraki and all the other espada ranked lower then Nnoitra. Nnoitra himself said he was stronger then Grimmjow so Grimmjow loses!

[Esca]

You misinterpreted almost every word I said.

[Seff vi Britannia]

If Grimmjaw is too fast for Zaraki to see, then it is safe to say that it will be too fast to react to. Considering a person's sight is always faster than their physical reaction, if the attack is too fast to see, he can't respond to it.

So, what you're saying is that if Zaraki can't see Grimmjow, he can't react to him?

Mind explaining the Zaraki/Tousen fight to me then?

[Tai Dai]

*enters*

In that fight, Zaraki got Tousen after the hit tousen landed on zaraki.
But what if Grimmjow just went to finish it all and go straight for the back of the head, how can Zaraki respond then?

[Seff vi Britannia]

The fact still stands that Zaraki has shown to be able to react without his sense of sight, meaning that the whole "Grimm moves so fast Zaraki can't see him and therefore Zaraki can't dodge" is void.
You "back of the head" thing makes no sense to me - Zaraki reacted to Tousen's attacks without his sense of sight. You can't get much more of a debuff than that.

[Jelle]

Tousen was dickin' about, he could have ended it with a freaking vital blow to the head straight away instead of giving Zaraki time to think of a way to beat him. Not to mention that Tousen isn't exactly the fastest person in the Bleach universe by a long shot, so how does Zaraki react to that kind of speed that Grimmjow has? Zaraki hasn't really displayed a great deal of speed at all.

[Tai Dai]

It sounds like your over exaggerating his reaction with Tousen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXRqg3XpLFY

At 8:35 Tousen attacks Zaraki.
He stabs Zaraki, and then a few seconds later Zaraki grabs tousen.
Its not like he all of a sudden just grabbed him before he could get hit, he let himself take the damage and then trapped tousen.

That time he reacted with his sense of touch and attacked with his sense of sight now that he could se tousen. Soo......

What i said about the back of the head statement. Pantera is fast enough to just go for it all make zaraki lose sight of him and then just finish him with a blow to the head.

[Sin]

In tousen's Bankai you lose all your senses except touch, but if your blind, deaf and can't sense reiatsu what good is touch if only to sense you'v been hit and are bleeding? He let go of Tousen and then said the next time you won't even get a hit off and destroyed tousen bankai with one blow. He still couldn't see him and sense him yet he could react that fast and precise. That would correlate exactly with the oh grimmjow's too fast to be seen because Zaraki would still have more senses available then he did against tousen so he would still win.

@esca: sorry i just didn't understand what you said and the last bottom part wasn't directed at you

@Troll: dude your sig is going to give someone a seizure :p

[Seff vi Britannia]

*sigh*

I get the feeling that people don't really understand what i was trying to say.

@ Chi, that's like, the point. >.>

[Tai Dai]

I see.... I was wrong you guys got me :p

[Zanga]

Tousen was dickin' about, he could have ended it with a freaking vital blow to the head straight away instead of giving Zaraki time to think of a way to beat him. Not to mention that Tousen isn't exactly the fastest person in the Bleach universe by a long shot, so how does Zaraki react to that kind of speed that Grimmjow has? Zaraki hasn't really displayed a great deal of speed at all.

Speed doesn't mean shit if your opponent has his senses completely wiped out.


No sight, no hearing, no reiatsu detection capabilities = Not being able to keep up with someone much faster

All you have to do is get time your counter attack


It's like walking down a field, you turn around and your friend whips a tennis ball at you, but you catch it with your hand. Does that mean you're faster than the tennis ball's speed? No, it means you timed your hand accordingly, and judged where the the ball would hit in that split second in order to catch it.

It's the same thing, as long as Kenpachi has that split second, he can counter-attack, and he most likely will have more than a split second.

[Jay3205]

In tousen's Bankai you lose all your senses except touch, but if your blind, deaf and can't sense reiatsu what good is touch if only to sense you'v been hit and are bleeding? He let go of Tousen and then said the next time you won't even get a hit off and destroyed tousen bankai with one blow. He still couldn't see him and sense him yet he could react that fast and precise. That would correlate exactly with the oh grimmjow's too fast to be seen because Zaraki would still have more senses available then he did against tousen so he would still win.The reason Grimmjaw would win isn't because "he can't be seen". It's because he's too fast to be seen, which means he's too fast to react to. In terms of reaction time, hearing > sight > feeling. You're eyes are on your head, so it naturally takes less time for info to go from your eyes to your brain. If Zaraki isn't fast enough to see, he won't be fast enough to react based on touching/hearing. Zaraki could dodge Tousen because his reactions remained fast enough to dodge, even if his sight is taken away. It's true that Zaraki will have the split second after Grimmjaw touches him to move, but that split second will be too small for him to do anything.

Imagine a tiny insect that flies straight into your face. You probably don't see even see it until it's right in front of you, but somehow you can move out the way or swat it, or manage to blink before it hits your eye. According to your post, since you can do this, it means you have enough speed to react (react being move/blink/notice) to a high power rifle being shot at you at point blank range. In both cases, you don't see the "attack". In the first case, you're reactions are clearly fast enough to react despite not being able to see. In the second case, you're reactions are not fast enough to even detect a bullet has been fired, so you can't react. (And yes, a high power rifle shot at point blank range would hit you before your senses register a shot has been fired)

It's the same thing, as long as Kenpachi has that split second, he can counter-attack, and he most likely will have more than a split second.The speed between a normal Tousen strike and vaizard Ichigo is vastly different. Being able to dodge a .001 mph knife after it touches your skin while blindfolded doesn't mean you can also dodge a 1000 mph knife after it touches your skin, though you'll have a "split second" in both scenarios.

[Zanga]

A normal human can no way see a bullet, true, but a highly trained samurai/soldier sure can(not like slow-mo, but should be able to detect its presence in the last half-a-second, but whether he dodges or not is besides the point), but again both are not able to compare their own speeds against the speed of a bullet. It's all about reaction time, and Zaraki has shown us time and time again that he has instincts like a beast. And Grimmjaw, being the guy he is will not kill Zaraki like how Ichigo could've killed Byakuya by appearing infront of him, he could've done the same to Ichigo but he didn't, and hey his actual mission objective was to go kill Ichigo.

.001 mph knife vs a 1000 mph doesn't really matter because both end up having to touch Zaraki, and the split-second that Zaraki needs can be achieved right there.

[SenpaiRetsu]

A normal human can no way see a bullet, true, but a highly trained samurai/soldier sure can(not like slow-mo, but should be able to detect its presence in the last half-a-second, but whether he dodges or not is besides the point), but again both are not able to compare their own speeds against the speed of a bullet. It's all about reaction time, and Zaraki has shown us time and time again that he has instincts like a beast. And Grimmjaw, being the guy he is will not kill Zaraki like how Ichigo could've killed Byakuya by appearing infront of him, he could've done the same to Ichigo but he didn't, and hey his actual mission objective was to go kill Ichigo.

.001 mph knife vs a 1000 mph doesn't really matter because both end up having to touch Zaraki, and the split-second that Zaraki needs can be achieved right there.


I agree with Zanga, we have to remember that this is bleach a manga, and these are shinigami, they do not have human reaction speeds beause they are not human. Especially Zaraki's reaction time. Even if grimmy does get some hits in which i'm sure he will i don't think they'll damage him all that much. what he has has no where near the attack power of Nnoitora's weapon(s) not only was Nnoitora's weapon way bigger and badder, he had way more raw strength. And Zaraki has TONS more than that. when he stabbed Nnoitora through his hollow hole, he lifted him clean off of the ground with his arm extended. He blocked Nnoitora's first strike half assed with one hand and said "that's not half bad".

I'm sorry but Grimmy doesn't stand a chance against Zaraki. we all know that shikai Ichigo shouldn't have either but that was plotkai. so it's tough to use Ichigo as a guage.

[Jay3205]

^^ You're missing the point. In terms of reaction speed, sight and hearing exceed touch by a good enough margin. If something is too fast for your sense of sight to catch, then it will be too fast for you to willfully react to it. There's not going to be a time when a human-sized object moves fast enough to *completely* disappear from your sight attacks, but somehow your sense of touch is fast enough to let you react to it. If Zaraki could do this, it would mean he could dodge Grimmjaw's attack as soon as he feels it, when from his (visual) point of view, Grimmjaw never moved.

And no, a sufficiently trained samurai/gunman couldn't react to a high power rifle shot at close range. The bullet would hit him before his nerves have enough time to send the message to his spine to allow him to move.

That being said, if he isn't fast enough to see him, his sense of touch isn't going to let him react, meaning Grimmjaw could do to him what Ichigo did to Byakuya. We also have no comparison as to how much stronger Nnoitora is than anybody. He clashes fairly evenly with a PATCHED Zaraki, so he can't be that much more powerful than Grimmjaw.

[ninjabot]

Using sense of touch as an indicator of when to attack the opponent fails against someone smart enough to make the one hit count. If Tousen had decapitated Kenpachi with his first blow, the fight would have been over with right then and there.

Kenpachi WILL NOT react to having his head seperated from his body by grabbing Grimmjow. On the contrary, he'll react by falling over and dying. Therefore, Grimmjow wins.

[Sin]

I've seen no abilities on the part of grimmjow's released form that indicates the ability to decapitate Kempachi Zaraki. He can scratch viciously, and maybe pierce but no decapitating ability. Plus I keep repeating that Zaraki isn't slow nor is Grimmjow that fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jeez

[Esca]

Everyone has a decapitating ability, it's called something sharp to neck.

Please elaborate and don't post one liners.
-KholdStare

[Hueso Loco]

I think Zaraki wins, because after all he did beat the person ranked above Grimmjow. Not only that, he is also way stronger. Even you say that Grimmjow is faster, all Zaraki has to do is hit him once and then it'll all be over.

[Zanga]

Using sense of touch as an indicator of when to attack the opponent fails against someone smart enough to make the one hit count. If Tousen had decapitated Kenpachi with his first blow, the fight would have been over with right then and there.

Kenpachi WILL NOT react to having his head seperated from his body by grabbing Grimmjow. On the contrary, he'll react by falling over and dying. Therefore, Grimmjow wins.

The only person in this damn manga who ever EVER even REFERRED to decapitating is Leroux.


We all know Grimmjaw can do it, but he won't. This is the Bleach battle section, so Bleach logic pls :)



EDIT: Eh what do you know, Zaraki also refers to it. Who knew.

[Sin]

@esca: Yeah but if you look at his paws, his claws are sharp but paws that house them are fury and dull. Now yeah he has the spikes on his forearms but it would be extremely awkward for him to cut someone like zaraki's neck. Besides like someone said his instincts are to the point where he can feel and react to an incoming attack a split second before the attack. So I believe, really believe Grimmjow loses.