Szayel v.s Kenpachi

[Icestorm]

Yep. I find this in my opinion an interesting question.

Its an age old one.. brain versus brawn. I know who the players will be in this debate..


I'll chime in when I get some nice posts coming in.

[Undying]

I suppose you know my opinion, but...

This is Shonen manga.

Szayel will rip Kenpachi's organs.

Then Kenpachi will slice Szayel apart.

Kenpachi wins.

In a realistic scenario, Kenpachi will not be able to swing his sword without his tendons, so he loses. In what would actually happen... see above.

[Dope Hat]

I think Kenpachi would win.
Syazel would probably try the trick with the organs again - but I don't think he'll be fast enough to do that.
Mayuri and Syazel had alot of talking going on and they took turns with hurting the other.
Kenpachi wouldn't talk or wait though - he'd attack and kill.
And IF Syazel manages to make one of his organs explode [not all - Syazel likes to play] Kenpachi would ignore it. He'd kill and then Unohana or somebody else would probably heal him - if he lets them of course. :P [Then again - he doesn't have much to say when Unohana wants to heal him xD]

[silverwolf801]

it would never work out for Syzael. He would go like bam doll bam. and then kenpachi would go like hahah you think that hurts please. and then he will slice him up. That was a mega rough draft of what would happen people

[SenpaiRetsu]

it would never work out for Syzael. He would go like bam doll bam. and then kenpachi would go like hahah you think that hurts please. and then he will slice him up. That was a mega rough draft of what would happen people

basically what silver said, but i doubt he'd even get to release, he wouldn't be able to take even a whole minute of a direct assault from Zaraki. because apparently Zaraki's slashes have the strength of a bankai hit :rolleyes:

[diamondedge]

Due to Kenpachi's "come and get me as hard as you can" and the fact that Szayel does not deal surface damage for kenpachi to block or defend against, Szayel takes this. Again, I'm taking Kenpachi's personality into consideration. Here however it would be his death, because nobody's internal organs are made of steel, and Szayel does voodoo. You can't really go against that.

Szayel > Pretty much everyone

[Dope Hat]

Yes, but Syazel's weakness here is that he likes to play. Like in the fight with Mayuri he didn't destroy all his organs at once. He wanted Mayuri to suffer and damaged one after one - so Mayuri has to die slowly and painfully.
Mayuri waited cause he didn't feel anything.
Kenpachi wouldn't wait.
He'd attack Syazel and chop off his head before Syazel could destroy a second organ.

What's the use of a voodoo doll if you are not fast enough to use it?

[diamondedge]

He'd attack Syazel and chop off his head before Syazel could destroy a second organ.
Good point, however, Mayuri's organs were never crushed, so no matter what and how Szayed did to him, that can't be taken into consideration because his body structure is a direct counter to Szayel's abilities.

He did the same play with Ishida, and Ishida with real organs just like Kepnachi's was unable to fight, even after Szayel simply toyed with him.
EDIT:What's the use of a voodoo doll if you are not fast enough to use it?
I was waiting for you to say that.
In all battles Kenpachi had so far, he was never the one to attack first. :)
He likes to test his opponents first. Szayel would have all the time in the world.

[Undying]

Szayel was able to completely negate damage from Ishida, Rneji, Pesche, and Dodonjack by calculating their experience, power, ability, and all that by observing them fight for a short time (remind you that he was fighting a "new and improved" Dodonjack and Pesche, since last he saw them fight was when he remove Nell).

Zaraki really doesn't stand a chance - if this wasn't Shonen manga.

[Dope Hat]

Good point, however, Mayuri's organs were never crushed, so no matter what and how Szayed did to him, that can't be taken into consideration because his body structure is a direct counter to Szayel's abilities.

Mhm yes. I know that.
Doesn't change the fact that Syazel was only playing around. He wanted Mayuri to die slowly and show him who is the better scientist

He did the same play with Ishida, and Ishida with real organs just like Kepnachi's was unable to fight, even after Szayel simply toyed with him.

Sorry if that sounds now fangirlish - but you can't throw Ishida into the same pot as Kenpachi. Kenpachi can stand much more wounds and attacks then Ishida.

EDIT:
I was waiting for you to say that.
In all battles Kenpachi had so far, he was [B]never the one to attack first. :)
He likes to test his opponents first. Szayel would have all the time in the world.

[sorry for the edit xD;]

I know that Kenpachi never attacks first ;)
But you have to give Kenpachi that much credit that he'll notice when somebody is crushing his organs with a little doll.
Syazel will have time for one attack - not more though.


@Undying: your ava kills me.....

[diamondedge]

Mhm yes. I know that.
Doesn't change the fact that Syazel was only playing around. He wanted Mayuri to die slowly and show him who is the better scientist [but didn't know about Mayuri's little trick...]
Yes, Szayel was ONLY playing around, and normal living being was KO's instantly.
Sorry if that sounds now fangirlish - but you can't throw Ishida into the same pot as Kenpachi. Kenpachi can stand much more wounds and attacks then Ishida.
Actually. Yes, I can.
This is INTERNAL damage we are speaking, damage to internal organs. Not muscles, but organs tissues. I seriously doubt you are going to argue that bodybuilder has a stronger heart than average human?
Are you saying that if I take out both of these person's hearts and put in on the table and smash it with a hammer, the heart of a person who is physically stronger will do any better than anyone else's? I think not.

But you have to give Kenpachi that much credit that he'll notice when somebody is crushing his organs with a little doll.
Well, if somebody crushed my organs I would be probably busy being dead.

Syazel will have time for one attack - not more though.

One attack is all he needs. In one attack he rendered a person who was superior to him in combat skills and also considerably faster than himself totally useless for battle. :)

[Dope Hat]

[I just noticed I spelled Szayel's name wrong all the time - gosh! How embarrassing. Sorry x_x]


Yes, Szayel was ONLY playing around, and normal living being was KO's instantly.

Yeah - but Szayel is too much sure of himself to NOT play around.

Actually. Yes, I can.
This is INTERNAL damage we are speaking, damage to internal organs. Not muscles, but organs tissues. I seriously doubt you are going to argue that bodybuilder has a stronger heart than average human?
Are you saying that if I take out both of these person's hearts and put in on the table and smash it with a hammer, the heart of a person who is physically stronger will do any better than anyone else's? I think not.

Well, if somebody crushed my organs I would be probably busy being dead.

Ähm....no.
It ALWAYS depends which organ you crush - and like already said - Szayel crushes one organ after the other and therefore doesn't crush all at the same time.

And we are also not talking about a hammer crushing hearts here.

We are talking about a crazy scientist loving to let his prey suffer. And there are people who shrug when you smash their lever and others who faint|die, it depends how strong the spirit of that person is [you know - does he|she have something to fight for or is there nothing left for him|her to stay awake for...]

One attack is all he needs. In one attack he rendered a person who was superior to him in combat skills and also considerably faster than himself totally useless for battle. :)

Szayel needs more than one attack. Then like already said [sorry that I repeat myself xD;] he likes to place, and with the first attack he'll probably only damage the stomach or something "unimportant" like that]

[diamondedge]

Yeah - but Szayel is too much sure of himself to NOT play around.
How does that change the fact his attacks are effective even if he plays?

Ähm....no.
It ALWAYS depends which organ you crush - and like already said - Szayel crushes one organ after the other and therefore doesn't crush all at the same time.
And we are also not talking about a hammer crushing hearts here.
:)
Yes, we are.
Re-read the manga if you don't know what Szayel's attack does to internal organs. It CRUSHES them, regardless what kind of satisfaction Szayel gets from doing it, or how playful he is.

Unless, it's a single kidney, remind me without which internal organ you can survive without? ^^

Szayel played, and STILL aimed for the stomach. Which I think is quite important organ. If you think stomach is NOT important for living, then I'd seriously reconsider posting here.

We are talking about a crazy scientist loving to let his prey suffer. And there are people who shrug when you smash their lever and others who faint|die, it depends how strong the spirit of that person is [you know - does he|she have something to fight for or is there nothing left for him|her to stay awake for...]

How does Szayle's desires and fetishes influence his killing techniques?
He.
Crushes.
Internal.
ORGANS.

What pleasure he gets out of it is IRRELEVANT.

Szayel needs more than one attack. Then like already said [sorry that I repeat myself xD;] he likes to place, and with the first attack he'll probably only damage the stomach or something "unimportant" like that]
No he doesn't and manga clearly shows that. :)

[Tsuki Garyuu]

Szayel versus Kenpachi is like the opposite of Noitora vs. Kenpachi.

When you look at mad scientists like Szayel and Mayuri, brains beats brawn.

If Szayel tears plenty of Ken's organs, he'll win cuz even kenpachi is not immortal nor "perfect", as Mayuri said.

Just think. If Kubo allowed Kenpachi, who has no brains, to stay alive after his organs are broken, that would be considered "god modding", which will lead to plenty of critiques.

[Undying]

Actually, Dia, Zaraki would win.

If Ishida can survive a crushed stomach and the acid sprayed on his internals, talk, and and pretty much act normal (except the occasional blood cough), then Zaraki can easily survive that :).

@Dopey: I know :p. But Chibi angry Kanda is kinda awesome to wear XD. Plus it reminds me how I should be angry.

[diamondedge]

Ishida has to live because he is ranked high in the popularity contest. xD
He did talk and all later on, but we was unable to fight all know that in normal circumstances would be killed.

[FullMetal Rebel]

Zaraki would take this. Szayel may have lived long, but that was only because he was fighting low-tiered fighters to begin with. Szayel got slaughtered by a captain tiered fighter, heck he didn't even surprise Mayuri once.

[Dope Hat]

How does that change the fact his attacks are effective even if he plays?

Oh no sorry. I didn't mean that it isn't effective. I just meant that it doesn't kill at the first time because Szayel doesn't want to kill at the frist try.

:)
Yes, we are.
Re-read the manga if you don't know what Szayel's attack does to internal organs. It CRUSHES them, regardless what kind of satisfaction Szayel gets from doing it, or how playful he is.

But not the heart! It would be over too soon for him.

Unless, it's a single kidney, remind me without which internal organ you can survive without? ^^

Easy.
I can't give you a site now [maybe wikipedia] but you can look on the net for proof [I know about those organs because of my parents - they work in the hopital so I have to listen to that every day ^^']

+ stomach [....living without that one is the easiest - for example, people with cancer there get it cut out]
+ lever [true - you cannot live without it - but if there is just a little part of it left it will grow again]
+ gut [you can cut parts of it out]
+ spleen
+ kidney [you can live without BOTH of them for three days....then you need a mashine {or Unohaha xD}]
+ you can live without one lobe of the lung
+ heart [you can live without it for three minutes......*shot* xD]

Szayel played, and STILL aimed for the stomach. Which I think is quite important organ. If you think stomach is NOT important for living, then I'd seriously reconsider posting here.

like I already said.
it even gets cut out when you have cancer [then the feed pipe and the gut get connected - without the stomach in between]


How does Szayle's desires and fetishes influence his killing techniques?
He.
Crushes.
Internal.
ORGANS.

What pleasure he gets out of it is IRRELEVANT.

Yes. But not all at once!
He makes one explode - Kenpachi chops off his head.
True - Kenpachi is not the fastest in Bleach - but he is fast enough [and stron enough!] for Szayle.

No he doesn't and manga clearly shows that. :)

At the first attack? When he only wants to show what he can? To make his opponent fear him?
He will make something unimportant explode.

[Undying]

Ishida has to live because he is ranked high in the popularity contest. xD
He did talk and all later on, but we was unable to fight all know that in normal circumstances would be killed.
And Zaraki will be able to fight :). If Ishida can talk, then Zaraki can fight :o.

:p

[diamondedge]

Fighting and talking don't exactly fit into the same category of psychical abilities.

Especially because it doesn't make a difference between them even if if Zaraki is psychically stronger, due to what I said above.

@Dope_Hat: Medically cutting out organs does not equal having organs crushed. There are internal bleedings, in case of stomach there is stomach acid, etc. So, still no.

[Dope Hat]

@Dope_Hat: Medically cutting out organs does not equal having organs crushed. There are internal bleedings, in case of stomach there is stomach acid, etc. So, still no.

I said you can live without them - and not that they have to be medically cut out ;)

[Undying]

Fighting and talking don't exactly fit into the same category of psychical abilities.

Especially because it doesn't make a difference between them even if if Zaraki is psychically stronger, due to what I said above.
Actually they do (in anime).

Otherwise, people with holes in their heads wouldn't be walking and talking ;).

Because Zaraki is more like dby Kubo is physically stronger, he can lose all tendons, muscles, stomach, kidneys, etc. and still fight. Or haven't you noticed how he completely ignores a hand stab to the heart?

[diamondedge]

Then simply post that Zaraki wins because he is Zaraki, not because he is more capable of winning. :)

[Undying]

*points to original post*

Zaraki will lose because Szayel will destroy his tendons (a la Renji) and he won't be able to move his.limbs :). No internal organ crushing needed beyond that.

But, um, yeah, we all know Zaraki "is da man" so he wins :rolleye09

And if I posted that it would be counted spam, btw.

[Icestorm]

Ok i'll throw this into the debate.. How would Zaraki cope against 5 or 10 of himself. Because the only way that Renji beat that was by going Bankai.. oh wait .. shit Kenpachi doesnt have that. But still I wonder...

[Jay3205]

Insane or not, Zaraki can't fight without tendons, just like Ichigo couldn't move when Aizen nearly severed his spine.

[Night Prowler]

I suppose you know my opinion, but...

This is Shonen manga.

Szayel will rip Kenpachi's organs.

Then Kenpachi will slice Szayel apart.

Kenpachi wins.

In a realistic scenario, Kenpachi will not be able to swing his sword without his tendons, so he loses. In what would actually happen... see above.

That sums up what i was going to say.

[Guy]

If this isn't shounen, the best thing for Szayel to do is to crush the heads of all voodoo dolls. Seriously, even Noitora/Zaraki explained that a head shot would be fatal in Bleach world, yet, the only head shot I can remember is in that fight

If he does that, Szayel wins. If he doesn't do that, then I think Zaraki wins. He can obviously cut through any hierro, and offense wise, Szayel just isn't that strong to deal with an uber powerful warrior like Kenpachi :P

[Seff vi Britannia]

Zaraki would slice off Syzael's head before he could release. : /

[Greggle]

Is Szayel wanted he could make his first move rip Zaraki's heart in 2. Szayel could also regenerate any damage Zaraki did. I'm sure Zaraki wouldn't have any decent way to fight clones of himself either. Just more brute strength, which the clones have just as much of.

[smach]

Due to Kenpachi's "come and get me as hard as you can" and the fact that Szayel does not deal surface damage for kenpachi to block or defend against, Szayel takes this. Again, I'm taking Kenpachi's personality into consideration. Here however it would be his death, because nobody's internal organs are made of steel, and Szayel does voodoo. You can't really go against that.

Szayel > Pretty much everyoneszayel will be in trouble till the point he starts breaking organs. if we only look at the past fights of these two, we see that they both like fooling around first...but zaraki's games are more dangerous. even though szayel can make copycats and restrict bankai releases, zaraki can still keep charging forward and also use his full strength because there's no restriction on it.

IMO it all depends on who lands the first blow...

If Szayel wanted he could make his first move rip Zaraki's heart in 2. Szayel could also regenerate any damage Zaraki did. I'm sure Zaraki wouldn't have any decent way to fight clones of himself either. Just more brute strength, which the clones have just as much of.which would obviously lead to a chain reaction...and KABOOM!!!
>>> ...bring back any memories? <<< (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/292/13/)

[diamondedge]

IMO it all depends on who lands the first blow...

As I've said earlier, in all fights Zaraki had, he was NEVER the one to open a battle. :)

[smach]

n what did szayel do in his first fight? :babies:

EDIT: also, while szayel starts pulling cats out of his bag, zaraki could just be trying to jab away...in the name of "fun."

[Icestorm]

Why did you quote that manga chapter with renji? Kenpachi does not have bankai.. and Szayel's clones didnt die because of Renji's bankai.. Szayel stopped the clones and revealed his other abilities.

[smach]

simple: patchless kenpachi > bankai renji

EDIT: i was referring to the room that renji blew up...what about if he leaves the close alone n aims for szayel?

[Icestorm]

He would be impaled by 10 different him's.

If he had enough time to concentrate on that.. then the other clones would have enough time to stab him through every part of his body.

Since he would be so tied up against 10 different him's that have the same reflexes and agility.

[smach]

He would be impaled by 10 different him's.

If he had enough time to concentrate on that.. then the other clones would have enough time to stab him through every part of his body.

Since he would be so tied up against 10 different him's that have the same reflexes and agility.hmm...good point indeed.

what if he strikes n uses shunpo? the clones haven't shown the ability to simultaneously imitate attacks. also, the whole point of breaking the room n escaping was to gain some distance/space. and since the clones' skill is "imitation," zaraki may be able to land some hits.

[Icestorm]

Im wondering if Zaraki is smart enough to apply that tactic? Since well as far as I know most of his tactics are trial and error. Error being his death in this case.

But I think they would be able to do the simultanious attack since all their attacks seem to be exactly like the users. We didnt see shunpo but I dont see why not, since when we saw the clones it was 3 different people cloned rather than 1 so we didnt get that chance.. but from my observation is should be possible.

[smach]

*four* people were cloned...but we never got to see the "counterfeit pants" that phesshe's clones supposedly had on.

when talking about simultaneous attacks i meant the clones' reaction time to the user. it doesn't seem like their imitations are seamless (like punching a mirror), but rather have a small delay.

the strike+shunpo reference was with szayel as the target but it could probably work on the clones as well. if zaraki aims for szayel, he can hit him with a powered-up slash and shunpo to evade potential attacks from clones.

but also, like u said, it depens on how smart zaraki is...

EDIT: there's also that mystery of how szayel defeated/deflected/evaded that dondo-pesshe cero. but i'm guessing he somehow dodged, since there was a cloud in the background.

[Icestorm]

I think like Urahara he analysed the attack pattern and gauged the dodging speed etc. And If he can do such a thing as that.. after watching Kenpachi fight his clones for a while im guessing he could also gauge the pattern of Kenpachi's attacks too. Which means that if he should break apart suddenly it wouldnt be entirely impossible to dodge it.

[smach]

but unlike urahara, szayel hadn't seen that dual-cero ever before...n although i still find it hard to believe, didn't urahara admit to being hit by yami's bara? but it's also kinda to be expected, especially when the attack came from the back...while szayel was attacked from the front.

but it also depends on how quick his reflexes are. his defensive strategies seem to be zero and since pesshe was able to cut his released form with a mere sword, it goes to show that a close-range attacker like zaraki should also have a good chance at survival. szayel's release seems to be like zomari' - the user never moves - so unless he immediately pulls out his stack body parts, he's gonna be a goner for sure.

EDIT: n that's what i'm debating myself about...who's gonna make the first move?
- szayel has ub3r cheapness at his hand
- zaraki has unsuspecting, suicide-like strikes (n he doesn't have to defend anywayz, especially against a person whose techniques don't deal direct attacks.

[Icestorm]

Im just thinking that if he can block such an unexpected combo move that he has never seen before.. He can block the movements of the Kenpachi he has been watching fight himself. Since I dont think Kenpachi would attack Szayel immedietly he would probably fight himself for a while since he is like that.

He also cant have too many different movements making it easier for Szayel to predict.. since im going on the assumption that Szayel predicted that attack from Peshe.. or else he wouldnt have been able to dodge it/block it.. But I forget what he says exactly after he blocks it.

[smach]

Im just thinking that if he can block such an unexpected combo move that he has never seen before.. He can block the movements of the Kenpachi he has been watching fight himself. Since I dont think Kenpachi would attack Szayel immedietly he would probably fight himself for a while since he is like that.but i'm in doubt about szayel blocking. he didn't have any resistance to pesshe's sword of light so what suddenly makes him capable of taking a double cero?

He also cant have too many different movements making it easier for Szayel to predict.. since im going on the assumption that Szayel predicted that attack from Peshe.. or else he wouldnt have been able to dodge it/block it.. But I forget what he says exactly after he blocks it.he praises them for their combo but also says they would've had a better chance of success if they had done it at the begining of the battle.

but my question is this: even if you can predict a sword strike, who's to say you're gonna be able to block/evade it? if only he had gone into delail about how he survived that cero...but regardless, i believe zaraki should be able to deal good blows since his natural reiatsu is a spectacle by itself.

n now it's back to the begining: either szayel starts breaking body parts or zaraki starts chopping them off.

[Icestorm]

Yep thats true lol. Its still tied :P

[smach]

yup lol n that's why i think i'll stay neutral for now.

[h3h3h3]

Tied my ass.