[Manga Spoilers] Byakuya vs. Urahara

[ninjabot]

And to say something has been proven when it really hasn't is borderline lying. It's been proven that when a Shinigami knows the name of their attack, not only can it be performed at will, but it is much stronger than when the shinigami doesn't know the name. Urahara, the character in question, is the one who made this statement. The GT that broke through the mistshield is weaker than the one Byakuya blocked, evidence by Urahara himself.

And when comparing examples of Kidou used, try to use something that's going to give Urahara an advantage in a fight. This isn't a contest to see who can do the most complicated Kidou; it's a competition to see who can win in a fight. Is Urahara gonna open a portal to Hueco Mundo inorder to run from Byakuya? Or toss Byakuya into the portal? If so, congrats, you managed to prove one point. If this is still a fight (and it is) anything "subjacent to the 89th level" will be rendered useless by Byakuya. Rikujo Koro? Useless. Byakurai? Useless. The one Byakuya used to knock Zabimaru off course? Useless. Anything Urahara uses that isn't 90 or above? USELESS.

Also, suprising Espada lower than the fastest Espada means that you're faster than THOSE Espada. Not the ones above them. Being fast enough to compete with the fastest however, means your speed is elite. Byakuya's speed is elite. And if you're dead set on believing that surprising a group of nobodies is awesome, well, Byakuya also moved out of harms way without any evidence of him doing so, effectively surprising Leroux with his speed. Heck, Leroux made an entire monologue about Byakuya being dead because he believed the cicada he used was the real him. It's the same as Urahara's gigai replacement, but more realistic because the clone actually bleeds.

We've no proof that bankai will increase Urahara's speed, therefore that speed we saw there is his greatest feat as far as speed goes (christ, it's his ONLY feat as far as speed goes). Oh, and Byakuya was still in shikai when that happened. His speed doesn't increase in bankai either, but that's not the point. The point is, speed that is enough to cause the fastest Espada to lose track of you>speed that the weakest espada, an arrancar of no merit (Wonderwice) and a secondhand replacement couldn't keep up with (Luppi). Byakuya is faster than Urahara. Not ignoring the speed. Just comparing it to superior speed.

[smach]

first off, u need to ease off with that "fastest espada" crap. zomari managed to make copies of himself; byakuya (who has gained no speed whatsoever) only had to use cicada once for zomari to see the mootness of his self-proclaimed "SUP3R" speed.

zangetsu is the one who talked about the difference between knowing the name and not knowing it; urahara talked about resolve. also, both of ichigo's GTs vs urahara were stronger than what he used on SKY, and relatively equal to what he used to injure byakuya's arm.

kidou...all urahara has to do is play some lil jon and snap his fingers. that's waay faster and more effective than byakuya's little paraphrase of the spell he's about to use. also, just coz he used a barrier once doesn't mean he'll use it every damn time in a fight, or that he'll even have the opportunity to do so...and it still won't help when urahara uses his shikai.

cicada...urahara inflated a lifesize balloon fast enough for him to switch places with it, while a bala was coming right at him.

[Lightey Natsume]

Urahrua Has more pwer in his shikia then byakyua does wich gives him the edge i thing urahua wins.

[ninjabot]

He made copies of himself by moving at supersonic speeds, not magically willing them into existence. Sonido is a technique that propells the user at high speeds. When it propells you at such a speed that your afterimages retain mass, then you're rediculously fast. It's like this: When Ichigo moves fast, he leaves an afterimage that shows the last movement he made before changing direction and propelling himself again...basically meaning the afterimages are predetermined before the victim can realize what the creator of said afterimages is doing.

Leroux moves away from his opponent, attacks him, moves to another side, attacks them, moves to another side, attacks them, then moves far away without leaving evidence that he has moved in the slightest. Then, after their opponent actually notices that there is a Leroux attacking him. there are more copies already performing their pre-determined movements. Inflating a baloon and moving out of the way without being noticed is super-speed, sure...

But...moving without being noticed, creating an afterimage clone without being noticed, then moving without being noticed and making a clone without being noticed, then moving without being noticed and creating a clone without being noticed, THEN moving out of harms way before your opponent realizes you even took a step FAR surpasses the latter. And if you disagree...meh. Leroux's Sonido is the fastest of the Espada.

And just because he used a barrier once doesn't mean he'll use it all the time. It does mean he CAN though, which is the point I was making. It's like you're implying Urahara's going to snap his fingers and cause Byakuya to instantaneously explode. No. He's going to attempt to either bind him with Bakudo, or harm him with Hadou. If said Kidou in question are any lower than 90, then they will be negated. They will fail. Come to think of it, why negate them with Danku when Urahara can't touch him? Makes more sense to just dodge...

And no, Danku won't help when Urahara uses Shikai. Gokei will. Simply attack him from every angle as he shields himself from the front. As the barrier barely holds back the frontal assault, every other senbon from his back will perforate him, ending the fight. Urahara as he's been shown can't win. Not without an auto-win gadget...or speed and strength enhancing Bankai.

[smach]

He made copies of himself by moving at supersonic speeds, not magically willing them into existence. Sonido is a technique that propells the user at high speeds. When it propells you at such a speed that your afterimages retain mass, then you're rediculously fast. It's like this: When Ichigo moves fast, he leaves an afterimage that shows the last movement he made before changing direction and propelling himself again...basically meaning the afterimages are predetermined before the victim can realize what the creator of said afterimages is doing.

Leroux moves away from his opponent, attacks him, moves to another side, attacks them, moves to another side, attacks them, then moves far away without leaving evidence that he has moved in the slightest. Then, after their opponent actually notices that there is a Leroux attacking him. there are more copies already performing their pre-determined movements. Inflating a baloon and moving out of the way without being noticed is super-speed, sure...

But...moving without being noticed, creating an afterimage clone without being noticed, then moving without being noticed and making a clone without being noticed, then moving without being noticed and creating a clone without being noticed, THEN moving out of harms way before your opponent realizes you even took a step FAR surpasses the latter. And if you disagree...meh. Leroux's Sonido is the fastest of the Espada.what zomari did is use his own version of cicada; no matter how fast you are, you can't make moving and talking afterimages that can get cut and potentially attack as well. if his speed was so amazing then byakuya should've had no reaction time when zomari created the first clone, which wasn't the case at all.

also, we already know that byakuya didn't gain any speed or techniques during that short break they had after aizen's betrayal. why would he suddenly tie with a character that's supposedly a league above bankai ichigo, whose speed is already a league above byakuya's?

the moral of the story is this: zemeros and cicada both create clones that are meant to fool the opponent by messing with their concentration. you basically create a temporary illusion to lead your opponent astray. byakuya was totally fixed on ichigo, and still lost sight of him. that's more significant and noteworthy than having a picture painted of you cutting your enemy...just to find out a second later that you were fighting thin air, or a piece of your opponent's garment.

And just because he used a barrier once doesn't mean he'll use it all the time. It does mean he CAN though, which is the point I was making. It's like you're implying Urahara's going to snap his fingers and cause Byakuya to instantaneously explode. No. He's going to attempt to either bind him with Bakudo, or harm him with Hadou. If said Kidou in question are any lower than 90, then they will be negated. They will fail. Come to think of it, why negate them with Danku when Urahara can't touch him? Makes more sense to just dodge...the point is that urahara doesn't need incantations while byakuya does. so by the time byakuya starts calling out his spell, urahara's kidou will have already accomplished its job. also, urahara's kidou holds the potential to be useful even during normal combat, while byakuya's is more likely to be avoidable and counterable, to say the least.

and that's disregarding the fact that he's got a well-respected kidou captain as his subordinate.

And no, Danku won't help when Urahara uses Shikai. Gokei will. Simply attack him from every angle as he shields himself from the front. As the barrier barely holds back the frontal assault, every other senbon from his back will perforate him, ending the fight. Urahara as he's been shown can't win. Not without an auto-win gadget...or speed and strength enhancing Bankai.gokei is only effective against immobile opponents; that's why it was used on the pumpkin, not the self-replicating black guy who thought his speed was majestic.

also, you're forgetting that urahara's shikai can equal a large shikai/bankai GT if he wants it to, and he can fire a cero-level attack with the same amount of effort. byakuya throws petals, urahara fires a couple ceroo-level attacks at him, and stronger ones as well...assuming he'd even have to go that far.

urahara also has the strength needed to wtfpwn byakuya in pure strength. we got a glimpse of this when he thrusted ichigo through two hills by simply jabbing at him once, and also from his position in the 2nd squad.

[ninjabot]

By Leroux's claim, and Kubo's showing, yes, you can make clones just from being fast, little sense as that makes. He said his sonido allows him to leave copies of himself just be increasing his steps even a little. Sure he said it was a trick, but it's a trick caused by the speed boost gained from sonido. And we know how sonido works, so...there you go. And the reason Byakuya could react fast enough to defeat said afterimages is obvious: he was fast enough to catch them before he could be harmed. Even when he was caught on his blindside, he avoided injury despite being surprised from behind. If cicada is anything like kawarimi from Naruto (and it's basically identical) it's a substitution made prior to the attack hitting the user. Meaning not only were they fast enough to anticipate the attack, but fast enough to leave a disguised substitute (clone, clothing, object from environment) without the assaulter seeing the movements.

And that isn't full incantation Byakuya does when performing kidou. Incantation is mouthing the spell needed to conjure the effects. It's usually a long-winded haiku of nonsense before they perform the attack. Then saying the number, then the name before using it. Byakuya just says the number and name. The second or 2 it takes to do so aren't enough for Urahara to hit Byakuya. Heck, Leroux couldn't stop him from using Byakurai in the middle of combat, WHILE Byakuya was surrounded by a supposedly faster foe. Speedcasting isn't a problem. And if Urahara fires a long range kidou, Byakuya either uses his superior speed to dodge, uses cicada, or negates it. Come to think of it, we don't know which kidou Urahara is effective with. We have canon proof of Byakuya's skill with kidou as well as which ones he usually uses in battle, but Urahara hasn't effectively launched any high level fighting kidou at anyone. But the speed of his GT-like attack can't be much more faster than a regular GT, so in the off chance that it is strong enough to push back SKY, it definately isn't too quick to avoid.

Strength however isn't something Byakuya is normally praised for, and Urahara being able to defeat members of the prison ward barehanded is a feat of strength...but we've no idea how strong any of those prisoners are. One could even say they have to be weak simply because Urahara can take them all out barehanded. Mayuri was one of those prisoners aswell, so he could be a measuring stick for Urahara's strength, but again, his physical strength has never been shown to be noteworthy. And this is un-armed Mayuri too. The "pushing Ichigo through 2 hills" thing makes sense though, or it would if that version of Ichigo wasn't a weakling. Come to think of it, that was the version of Ichigo Byakuya one-shotted. If Urahara ever reached Byakuya to swing his sword at him (and Byakuya doesn't move) he won't be jabbing him through any hills. On the contrary, he's either blocked, or hit.

So yeah, the gadgets are the and intelligence of Urahara is the only undisputed advantage he has.

[smach]

By Leroux's claim, and Kubo's showing, yes, you can make clones just from being fast, little sense as that makes. He said his sonido allows him to leave copies of himself just be increasing his steps even a little. Sure he said it was a trick, but it's a trick caused by the speed boost gained from sonido. And we know how sonido works, so...there you go. And the reason Byakuya could react fast enough to defeat said afterimages is obvious: he was fast enough to catch them before he could be harmed. Even when he was caught on his blindside, he avoided injury despite being surprised from behind. If cicada is anything like kawarimi from Naruto (and it's basically identical) it's a substitution made prior to the attack hitting the user. Meaning not only were they fast enough to anticipate the attack, but fast enough to leave a disguised substitute (clone, clothing, object from environment) without the assaulter seeing the movements.as i said, byakuya hasn't gained much (if any at all) since the SS arc. so, if you're gonna use zomari's speed-based technique as a token of achievement, then how do you explain byakuya going from having no reaction time to ichigo's movements, to being able to react to an opponent supposedly faster than ichigo?

as u said, zomari's tricks were speed-based techniques, which makes them no different from the use of cicada...apart from being able to make multiple of them. he sure did say that increasing his speed a little would result in clones, but that was clearly the only "increase of speed" that he could accomplish, which keeps him and byakuya from being as fast as you think.

making clones of yourself is commendable indeed, but it also doesn't trump over having no reaction time against someone +30ft away from you.

And that isn't full incantation Byakuya does when performing kidou. Incantation is mouthing the spell needed to conjure the effects. It's usually a long-winded haiku of nonsense before they perform the attack. Then saying the number, then the name before using it. Byakuya just says the number and name. The second or 2 it takes to do so aren't enough for Urahara to hit Byakuya. Heck, Leroux couldn't stop him from using Byakurai in the middle of combat, WHILE Byakuya was surrounded by a supposedly faster foe. Speedcasting isn't a problem. And if Urahara fires a long range kidou, Byakuya either uses his superior speed to dodge, uses cicada, or negates it. Come to think of it, we don't know which kidou Urahara is effective with. We have canon proof of Byakuya's skill with kidou as well as which ones he usually uses in battle, but Urahara hasn't effectively launched any high level fighting kidou at anyone. But the speed of his GT-like attack can't be much more faster than a regular GT, so in the off chance that it is strong enough to push back SKY, it definately isn't too quick to avoid.byakuya didn't manage to avoid ichigo's GT when it was shot from +20ft away, so i doubt he'll manage to dodge urahara's attacks, let alone block a cero level attack. both grimjow and ichigo couldn't dodge, so why would byakuya suddenly manage to dodge one? hell, urahara managed to shunpo right into the path of yami's cero, and release an attack of precise strength to nullify it as well. that requires more speed than dodging or slicing through a temporary clone of your opponent.

whether you recite a paragraph or only the type+number+name, an incantation is still an incantation. urahara has shown more commendable speed than byakuya, and his kidou is still released faster than byakuya's so he still has the upper hand in both kidou and speed. the fact that he doesn't even need to recite anything shows that his mastery of kidou is beyond byakuya's level.

Strength however isn't something Byakuya is normally praised for, and Urahara being able to defeat members of the prison ward barehanded is a feat of strength...but we've no idea how strong any of those prisoners are. One could even say they have to be weak simply because Urahara can take them all out barehanded. Mayuri was one of those prisoners aswell, so he could be a measuring stick for Urahara's strength, but again, his physical strength has never been shown to be noteworthy. And this is un-armed Mayuri too. The "pushing Ichigo through 2 hills" thing makes sense though, or it would if that version of Ichigo wasn't a weakling. Come to think of it, that was the version of Ichigo Byakuya one-shotted. If Urahara ever reached Byakuya to swing his sword at him (and Byakuya doesn't move) he won't be jabbing him through any hills. On the contrary, he's either blocked, or hit.

So yeah, the gadgets are the and intelligence of Urahara is the only undisputed advantage he has.stopping a giant with your bare hand is still a feat, and the fact that urahara manhandled people like mayuri goes to show that he's quite versatile and adaptive to whatever environment or situation he is placed in. thrusting ichigo right through a hill with little effort is still a testament of strength; we've never seen byakuya accomplish anything even similar, so...there u go. urahra has the gadgets, intelligence, speed, and strength, needed to defeat byakuya. and that's only with shikai.

[SenpaiRetsu]

I have officially changed my opinion from Byakuya taking it to urahara.

from demonstrated feats, it seems that Urahara is significantly faster than byakuya and also through circumstantial evidence.

I don't think that anyone is around Urahara because they fear him but.......... Look at who his company is. The former head of the Kidou corps works for him. who is in no way a weakling from what we've seen. Yoruichi who was the second division captain and his former boss is at the very least equal with him it seems. And we all know Yoruichi>>>>>>>>>Byakuya. Urahara clearly is the leader of all of them.

Also again to the speed, being able to intercept a cero and cut off luppi's arm, and switch himself with a gigai seems like much more impressive feats of speed than anything i've seen Byakuya do. The fastest thing i've seen Byakuya do is intercept Gin's shikai(gin was not even trying).

So with all of this i have to switch to Urahara takes this easily

[Jay3205]

Even though I agree Urahara would win, I think Byakuya is being underestimated. From Urahara's description, switching with the gigai seemed more like a feat of timing and technique rather than speed. Intercepting a cero isn't all that impressive since nobody was paying attention to him. Ichigo blocked Yammi's punch at nearly point blank range to protect Inoue, but he isn't faster than Byakuya without bankai or vaizard mask... again since nobody knew he was coming.

Chopping through Luppi's tentacle also doesn't show that much strength, considering he had the element of surprise, and Luppi isn't naturally espada level. I can very easily see Byakuya or Ichigo doing the same thing. Finally, from what we've seen, Yoruichi isn't that much more powerful than Byakuya. She admitted she'd lose to him (despite having shunko), and she's already shown how much she got hurt from attacking Yammi, so she couldn't be that much more powerful. Unless Yoruichi was faster than bankai Ichigo, I'd bet that even peak performance Yoruichi without a sword would lose to Byakuya.

[Minami Itsuki]

I think Urahara will win and easily too. He just seems to mysterious.

[SenpaiRetsu]

Even though I agree Urahara would win, I think Byakuya is being underestimated. From Urahara's description, switching with the gigai seemed more like a feat of timing and technique rather than speed. Intercepting a cero isn't all that impressive since nobody was paying attention to him. Ichigo blocked Yammi's punch at nearly point blank range to protect Inoue, but he isn't faster than Byakuya without bankai or vaizard mask... again since nobody knew he was coming.

Chopping through Luppi's tentacle also doesn't show that much strength, considering he had the element of surprise, and Luppi isn't naturally espada level. I can very easily see Byakuya or Ichigo doing the same thing. Finally, from what we've seen, Yoruichi isn't that much more powerful than Byakuya. She admitted she'd lose to him (despite having shunko), and she's already shown how much she got hurt from attacking Yammi, so she couldn't be that much more powerful. Unless Yoruichi was faster than bankai Ichigo, I'd bet that even peak performance Yoruichi without a sword would lose to Byakuya.

your last comment already shows Yoruichi>>>>>>>Byakuya you said you bet her without a sword would lose to A CAPTAIN! almost any captain would lose to another captain if they didn't have their sword. the fact that u'd consider two opponents, one armed and the other not close to the same level, than that means Yoruichi with a sword destorys Byakuya without trying.

[smach]

Even though I agree Urahara would win, I think Byakuya is being underestimated. From Urahara's description, switching with the gigai seemed more like a feat of timing and technique rather than speed. Intercepting a cero isn't all that impressive since nobody was paying attention to him. Ichigo blocked Yammi's punch at nearly point blank range to protect Inoue, but he isn't faster than Byakuya without bankai or vaizard mask... again since nobody knew he was coming.when it comes to speed, bala >>> cero >>> punch.

intercepting a punch (or any melee attack) isn't very hard to do. intercepting a cero that was fired from a couple feet away, right before it hit its target(s)...that's as easy as intercepting a GT. inflating a lifesize gigai and switching places with it, all while a bala is coming right at you (which is 20x the speed of cero) shows both speed and precision/technique.

if his speed was mediocre then even his timing should've made little difference coz the bala would still hit him.

Chopping through Luppi's tentacle also doesn't show that much strength, considering he had the element of surprise, and Luppi isn't naturally espada level. I can very easily see Byakuya or Ichigo doing the same thing. Finally, from what we've seen, Yoruichi isn't that much more powerful than Byakuya. She admitted she'd lose to him (despite having shunko), and she's already shown how much she got hurt from attacking Yammi, so she couldn't be that much more powerful. Unless Yoruichi was faster than bankai Ichigo, I'd bet that even peak performance Yoruichi without a sword would lose to Byakuya.what makes you think that she would lose to byakuya?

yammi's skin is supposedly strong, and yoruichi wtfpned him with little effort. sure, she may have sustained some internal damage, but implying that byakuya would've accomplished something similar with his bare hands...now that's what i call underestimating.

as for her speed...her encounter with yami was the same as ichigo's, if not better.

[Sin]

Even though I agree Urahara would win, I think Byakuya is being underestimated.
Or you could be overestimating Byakuya :whatevah:
From Urahara's description, switching with the gigai seemed more like a feat of timing and technique rather than speed. Intercepting a cero isn't all that impressive since nobody was paying attention to him.
Switching with the gigai is a feet of timing, technique and speed. Remember he said it himself no one would be able to get the timing down exact. Plus like Smach said bala blast is 20x faster then a cero and


he didn't see it comming since it was fired from behind him
Luppi, yami and wonderrice were all looking at him
In the first encounter with Yami and Ulq, Ulq was staring at him the whole time.
He stopped that cero at point blank range

Ichigo blocked Yammi's punch at nearly point blank range to protect Inoue, but he isn't faster than Byakuya without bankai or vaizard mask... again since nobody knew he was coming.
Ichigo did stop Yami's punch at point plank range, and if i recall the fight correctly, Byakuya was matched perfectly to the point where he admited that it seems ichigo had completely learned shunpo which made them both about the same speed.
Chopping through Luppi's tentacle also doesn't show that much strength, considering he had the element of surprise, and Luppi isn't naturally espada level. I can very easily see Byakuya or Ichigo doing the same thing.
If Luppi wasn't naturally espada level, he would have been sometheing else besides number 6. Zomari would have moved up and taken that place and luppi would have become the 10 espada. The fact that he did become the 6th espada means that he is espada level and he was in his released state and Urahara cut through it in just his Shikai... that is the difference in power
Finally, from what we've seen, Yoruichi isn't that much more powerful than Byakuya. She admitted she'd lose to him (despite having shunko), and she's already shown how much she got hurt from attacking Yammi, so she couldn't be that much more powerful.
From what we've seen Yorouichi without a sword would destroy Byakuya with one. One word Shunko!


In the fight with Soi Fong, Soi charged directly at her and she moved one hand and stopped her dead in her tracks. Now of course she was trying to protect her student and didn't want to hurt her.
Bankai Ichigo is no longer the fastest player, his speed is impressive but you can't take into account Byakuya's words when he was supprised at the speed.

One yorouichi never got serious with him when they played tag.
Two she's way faster then any of the other upper tier capts,
Three she follows willingly under the guide and command of URAHARA meaning that Urahara isn't someone to be played with.


Unless Yoruichi was faster than bankai Ichigo, I'd bet that even peak performance Yoruichi without a sword would lose to Byakuya.
This is very possible He's no longer the fastest player on the field in bankai.

[Jay3205]

when it comes to speed, bala >>> cero >>> punch.

intercepting a punch (or any melee attack) isn't very hard to do. intercepting a cero that was fired from a couple feet away, right before it hit its target(s)...that's as easy as intercepting a GT. inflating a lifesize gigai and switching places with it, all while a bala is coming right at you (which is 20x the speed of cero) shows both speed and precision/technique.

if his speed was mediocre then even his timing should've made little difference coz the bala would still hit him.It makes little difference in speed if the attack is practically touching you already. If Ichigo can block Yammi, and Hitsugaya can dodge a bullet like Shinsou attack when it's basically touching him, then it can't be all that difficult to dodge an attack when you're not caught off guard and have any decent level of speed.

Also, the point of the timing is that he doesn't need to use a ton speed. By watching Yammi's movements, he can tell when he's about to do bala before he even does it, which makes dodging it much easier. Jedi don't move their lightsabers at inhuman speeds, but they block bullets easily since they see it before it happens. It's not much different here.

what makes you think that she would lose to byakuya?

yammi's skin is supposedly strong, and yoruichi wtfpned him with little effort. sure, she may have sustained some internal damage, but implying that byakuya would've accomplished something similar with his bare hands...now that's what i call underestimating.

as for her speed...her encounter with yami was the same as ichigo's, if not better.I think she'd lose to Byakuya because she admitted she'd lose to Byakuya.

I don't see where you got my "implication" from, as I never said Byakuya would be able to beat anybody with his bare hands. I said that Yoruichi without a sword would probably lose to Byakuya. If Yoruichi >>>>>>>> Byakuya like the other person posted, Yoruichi would not have been injured that seriously. Yoruichi with a sword is probably a different case, but I made no mention of that before. However, without knowing her bankai, it is impossible to say for sure whether it would be any more effective against SKY than Hitsugaya's or Ikkaku's bankai (i.e. not good for facing omnidirectional attack).

Switching with the gigai is a feet of timing, technique and speed. Remember he said it himself no one would be able to get the timing down exact. Plus like Smach said bala blast is 20x faster then a cero and

1. he didn't see it comming since it was fired from behind him
2. Luppi, yami and wonderrice were all looking at him
3. In the first encounter with Yami and Ulq, Ulq was staring at him the whole time.
4. He stopped that cero at point blank range
I don't think Urahara dodged the first bala. It doesn't make sense that he can analyze the muscles of Yammi without ever seeing the attack. As for point 3, it doesn't really matter that Ulquiorra was looking since it was Yammi doing all the work. For point 4, there were a few feet between Urahara and Yoruichi and more than a few feet between them and Yammi. For him to intercept a cero, all he needed to do was shunpo in front of Yoruichi, which wouldn't be difficult. On the other hand, it would be difficult for Yoruichi to dodge, since she was kneeling down, caught off guard, and has no anti-cero blast.

If Luppi wasn't naturally espada level, he would have been sometheing else besides number 6. Zomari would have moved up and taken that place and luppi would have become the 10 espada. The fact that he did become the 6th espada means that he is espada level and he was in his released state and Urahara cut through it in just his Shikai... that is the difference in powerIf Luppi was naturally espada level (or at least, 6th espada level), he would've been the 7th espada. Grimmjaw wouldn't be able to chop him in half with his bare hands, and Hitsugaya wouldn't be able to hurt him to the degree that he did. At the very least, we know Luppi is much weaker than Grimmjaw, and it is quite possible he was made an espada to annoy Grimmjaw. Byakuya cut through released Zomari with a sealed zanpakutou, but that doesn't mean he's insanely strong.

From what we've seen Yorouichi without a sword would destroy Byakuya with one. One word Shunko!

* In the fight with Soi Fong, Soi charged directly at her and she moved one hand and stopped her dead in her tracks. Now of course she was trying to protect her student and didn't want to hurt her.
* Bankai Ichigo is no longer the fastest player, his speed is impressive but you can't take into account Byakuya's words when he was supprised at the speed.
o One yorouichi never got serious with him when they played tag.
o Two she's way faster then any of the other upper tier capts,
o Three she follows willingly under the guide and command of URAHARA meaning that Urahara isn't someone to be played with.
Yoruichi had shunko and willlingly admitted that she'd lose to Byakuya. I've yet to see an informed anime character willingly admit to losing, yet win.

1) Soi Fong attacking with a punch isn't comparable to Byakuya attacking from every direction from bankai.
2) Ichigo is no longer the fastest of all characters, but I've yet to see any proof that Yoruichi is faster than him. If Yoruichi were that fast, Byakuya would not have come close to catching her on the bridge, even while carrying Ichigo.
3) Working for Urahara just shows that Urahara knows what he's doing, or that they are both friends. Urahara also never gives orders to her either; it's just that Urahara is more mysterious, seems to be stronger, and more intelligent.

[Seff vi Britannia]

It makes little difference in speed if the attack is practically touching you already. If Ichigo can block Yammi, and Hitsugaya can dodge a bullet like Shinsou attack when it's basically touching him, then it can't be all that difficult to dodge an attack when you're not caught off guard and have any decent level of speed.

The power difference between Ichigo and Yammi and the fact Gin wasn't trying make those examples a bit redundant.


Also, the point of the timing is that he doesn't need to use a ton speed. By watching Yammi's movements, he can tell when he's about to do bala before he even does it, which makes dodging it much easier. Jedi don't move their lightsabers at inhuman speeds, but they block bullets easily since they see it before it happens. It's not much different here.


True


I think she'd lose to Byakuya because she admitted she'd lose to Byakuya.


Her sword was noticeable by it's absence.



2) Ichigo is no longer the fastest of all characters, but I've yet to see any proof that Yoruichi is faster than him. If Yoruichi were that fast, Byakuya would not have come close to catching her on the bridge, even while carrying Ichigo.


As of the hill scene, shikai Ichigo and Byakuya had eqaul speed. Yoruichi carrying Ichigo and Zangetsu outran Byakuya. Therefore, swordless Yoruichi with extra weight is faster than Ichigo (shikai). Admitedly, there's no comparison for bankai, though given that she too has shown the ability to leave afterimages similar to bankai Ichigo i would imagine she is at least his level of speed.

[Rainl]

Trollesform: Agreed, don't know how this thread got to comparing Byakuya to Yoruichi, I highly doubt, Shed lose to him though.

Yoruichi, carrying Ichigo, also put in mind she hasn't fought in over a 100 years, so she's quite rusty, was still able to easily outmatch Byakuya in speed. Don't think sky is gonna do him any good here.

What do you think will happen, if she decides to train up some and get back to her peak?

As for Urahara, I do believe he'd win, but we can't exactly base his strength off of his camp, sure he may have tessai, and Yoruichi.

He could have yoruichi, only since they were long time friends/lovers.
His relationship with Tessai is still unclear, although, using his party isn't a valid measurement in determing another person's own ability.

[Sin]

It makes little difference in speed if the attack is practically touching you already. If Ichigo can block Yammi, and Hitsugaya can dodge a bullet like Shinsou attack when it's basically touching him, then it can't be all that difficult to dodge an attack when you're not caught off guard and have any decent level of speed.
I have no idea what your talking about here :confused:
Also, the point of the timing is that he doesn't need to use a ton speed. By watching Yammi's movements, he can tell when he's about to do bala before he even does it, which makes dodging it much easier. Jedi don't move their lightsabers at inhuman speeds, but they block bullets easily since they see it before it happens. It's not much different here.
:eek13:For no one to see you do it, yeah you'd need tons of speed. All eyes were on him and no one saw him do the replacement nor get out of the battefield. So he's just that fast!!
I think she'd lose to Byakuya because she admitted she'd lose to Byakuya.
In the Byakuya vs Yorouichi thread there was substantial evidence that pointed out that what was trully said was that no one back there could beat byakuya. Which means she wasn't talking about herself or Ukitake. I don't think Ukitake would be taken out by Byakuya sorry.:rolleye09
I don't see where you got my "implication" from, as I never said Byakuya would be able to beat anybody with his bare hands. I said that Yoruichi without a sword would probably lose to Byakuya. If Yoruichi >>>>>>>> Byakuya like the other person posted, Yoruichi would not have been injured that seriously. Yoruichi with a sword is probably a different case, but I made no mention of that before. However, without knowing her bankai, it is impossible to say for sure whether it would be any more effective against SKY than Hitsugaya's or Ikkaku's bankai (i.e. not good for facing omnidirectional attack).
Yeah she's faster then Byakuya and probably Ichigo too, all it takes is one hit from her with her Shunko active and its goodnight which she'd most likely be able to do give their lil tag scene on the bridge where Byakuya clearly lost complete sight of them, and don't forget she had ichigo and zangetsu on her shoulder too and she was still that fast.:toocool:
I don't think Urahara dodged the first bala. It doesn't make sense that he can analyze the muscles of Yammi without ever seeing the attack. As for point 3, it doesn't really matter that Ulquiorra was looking since it was Yammi doing all the work. For point 4, there were a few feet between Urahara and Yoruichi and more than a few feet between them and Yammi. For him to intercept a cero, all he needed to do was shunpo in front of Yoruichi, which wouldn't be difficult. On the other hand, it would be difficult for Yoruichi to dodge, since she was kneeling down, caught off guard, and has no anti-cero blast.
:whatevah:Umm... hmm... lets try this, Urahara sensed the attack comming. Blew up the artificial gigai. Substituted himself with it. Went somewhere else watched yammi's repeated attacks with bala and then decided to come out after analysing it. No matter how you look at it he was that fast that no one saw him do it.
:whatevah:Don't believe everything you see in the anime, they weren't more then a few feet away from each other. The angles shown make it look like its a vast distance apart but it really isn't. And don't underestimate Yorouichi, the reason why she couldn't dodge was because of a beat up Orihime and chad that would have gotten killed. (which honestly wouldn't have been that bad if they did) Not to mention there were probably bi standers around too that maybe weren't completely dead.
If Luppi was naturally espada level (or at least, 6th espada level), he would've been the 7th espada. Grimmjaw wouldn't be able to chop him in half with his bare hands, and Hitsugaya wouldn't be able to hurt him to the degree that he did. At the very least, we know Luppi is much weaker than Grimmjaw, and it is quite possible he was made an espada to annoy Grimmjaw. Byakuya cut through released Zomari with a sealed zanpakutou, but that doesn't mean he's insanely strong.
... WHAT??:confused:
Yoruichi had shunko and willlingly admitted that she'd lose to Byakuya. I've yet to see an informed anime character willingly admit to losing, yet win.
:rolleye09No she said no one back there could beat Byakuya, i doubt she was talking about herself or Ukitake.:whatevah:
1) Soi Fong attacking with a punch isn't comparable to Byakuya attacking from every direction from bankai.
2) Ichigo is no longer the fastest of all characters, but I've yet to see any proof that Yoruichi is faster than him. If Yoruichi were that fast, Byakuya would not have come close to catching her on the bridge, even while carrying Ichigo.
3) Working for Urahara just shows that Urahara knows what he's doing, or that they are both friends. Urahara also never gives orders to her either; it's just that Urahara is more mysterious, seems to be stronger, and more intelligent.


it doesn't matter, she used a technique that stops everything in its track by reversing the force its coming at her with:biggrinki
I believe Trollseffmon addressed this:winking56
No, someone doesn't have to give orders to be a leader. Tessai seems to never want to upset Urahara and this is someone Shunsui and Ukitake looked up to with respect.:o FEEL THE POWER THAT IS KISUKE

[Jay3205]

I have no idea what your talking about hereI'm saying that whether it's a punch or a cero, if it's already touching you, then it doesn't matter much how fast you are as you are already hit. If Hitsugaya can dodge a "bullet" like attack that's already touching him, it shows that it's not a super great feat of speed.

For no one to see you do it, yeah you'd need tons of speed. All eyes were on him and no one saw him do the replacement nor get out of the battefield. So he's just that fast!! The only one paying attention to him was Yammi, at least after Urahara was initially knocked into the forest. There's no proof that he dodged the first bala at all.

Yeah she's faster then Byakuya and probably Ichigo too, all it takes is one hit from her with her Shunko active and its goodnight which she'd most likely be able to do give their lil tag scene on the bridge where Byakuya clearly lost complete sight of them, and don't forget she had ichigo and zangetsu on her shoulder too and she was still that fast.Byakuya only "loses" sight of her because of a special technique, not due to pure speed. If you are referring to the "stunned face" when she jumped over his shoulder, that doesn't mean he lost sight of anyone. Otherwise, we could say Yoruichi lost sight of Byakuya when she was stunned. If she was as fast as bankai Ichigo, she wouldn't have needed to use any special technique to run away.

Umm... hmm... lets try this, Urahara sensed the attack comming. Blew up the artificial gigai. Substituted himself with it. Went somewhere else watched yammi's repeated attacks with bala and then decided to come out after analysing it. No matter how you look at it he was that fast that no one saw him do it.
Don't believe everything you see in the anime, they weren't more then a few feet away from each other. The angles shown make it look like its a vast distance apart but it really isn't. And don't underestimate Yorouichi, the reason why she couldn't dodge was because of a beat up Orihime and chad that would have gotten killed. (which honestly wouldn't have been that bad if they did) Not to mention there were probably bi standers around too that maybe weren't completely dead.There's no proof that Urahara dodged the first bala. Since the timing is difficult, he can't effectively time a substitution the first attack (since he didn't see the attack or attacker, and was distracted). Either way, nobody but Yammi paid attention to him after he fell in the forest. Luppi returned to his fight, and Wonderwiess was no longer paying attention either, so we can't say everybody was watching him when he did the substitution.

Here's the distance, showing Yammi wasn't close to Yoruichi (at least, in the sense that shinsou was close to Hitsugaya).
http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-194/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch-12.png.php
Whether the distances were far or close, it is not anything that Byakuya could not have done. Byakuya can easily shunpo several dozen meters in an instant. He can shunpo across a bridge in the time while Yoruichi is still in mid-air. It wouldn't be hard for him to shunpo a few feet in the same amount of time. Considering Yoruichi had enough time to say "cero", that's more than enough time for anybody to use shunpo to get in front of Yoruichi.

1. it doesn't matter, she used a technique that stops everything in its track by reversing the force its coming at her with
2. I believe Trollseffmon addressed this
3. No, someone doesn't have to give orders to be a leader. Tessai seems to never want to upset Urahara and this is someone Shunsui and Ukitake looked up to with respect. FEEL THE POWER THAT IS KISUKE
1. I don't see how her attack stops "everything" that comes at her. There's no way to say that she can "attack" in every direction, stop a sword/blade, or match the full force of a bankai without using her own. All she's shown is that she can stop a punch, which is a far cry from stopping a bankai... no explanation is ever given in the manga.

2. She can beat Byakuya's speed, but he is far slower than his bankai. Even if Yoruichi was fast enough to outspeed Byakuya, she more than likely can NOT match his bankai's speed. If she could, then she would be able to beat Byakuya, which she admitted she could not do, and resorted to running away. Yoruichi admitting to losing + avoiding a fight with Byakuya shows Byakuya would win.

3. Ok... I don't want to upset my friends, my pet dog, or my neighbors, but that doesn't make them a leader.

[SenpaiRetsu]

I'm saying that whether it's a punch or a cero, if it's already touching you, then it doesn't matter much how fast you are as you are already hit. If Hitsugaya can dodge a "bullet" like attack that's already touching him, it shows that it's not a super great feat of speed.

The only one paying attention to him was Yammi, at least after Urahara was initially knocked into the forest. There's no proof that he dodged the first bala at all.

Byakuya only "loses" sight of her because of a special technique, not due to pure speed. If you are referring to the "stunned face" when she jumped over his shoulder, that doesn't mean he lost sight of anyone. Otherwise, we could say Yoruichi lost sight of Byakuya when she was stunned. If she was as fast as bankai Ichigo, she wouldn't have needed to use any special technique to run away.

There's no proof that Urahara dodged the first bala. Since the timing is difficult, he can't effectively time a substitution the first attack (since he didn't see the attack or attacker, and was distracted). Either way, nobody but Yammi paid attention to him after he fell in the forest. Luppi returned to his fight, and Wonderwiess was no longer paying attention either, so we can't say everybody was watching him when he did the substitution.

Here's the distance, showing Yammi wasn't close to Yoruichi (at least, in the sense that shinsou was close to Hitsugaya).
http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-194/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch-12.png.php
Whether the distances were far or close, it is not anything that Byakuya could not have done. Byakuya can easily shunpo several dozen meters in an instant. He can shunpo across a bridge in the time while Yoruichi is still in mid-air. It wouldn't be hard for him to shunpo a few feet in the same amount of time. Considering Yoruichi had enough time to say "cero", that's more than enough time for anybody to use shunpo to get in front of Yoruichi.

1. I don't see how her attack stops "everything" that comes at her. There's no way to say that she can "attack" in every direction, stop a sword/blade, or match the full force of a bankai without using her own. All she's shown is that she can stop a punch, which is a far cry from stopping a bankai... no explanation is ever given in the manga.

2. She can beat Byakuya's speed, but he is far slower than his bankai. Even if Yoruichi was fast enough to outspeed Byakuya, she more than likely can NOT match his bankai's speed. If she could, then she would be able to beat Byakuya, which she admitted she could not do, and resorted to running away. Yoruichi admitting to losing + avoiding a fight with Byakuya shows Byakuya would win.

3. Ok... I don't want to upset my friends, my pet dog, or my neighbors, but that doesn't make them a leader.

@Jay there is already a Byakuya vs. Yoruichi thread so i'll make this short. The reason we say Yoruichi>>>>>>>>Byakuya because Yoruichi without a sword is roughly equal to Byakuya in shikai. So it's logical to conclude Yorichi with a sword >>>>>byakuya with a sword then Yoruichi with bankai >>>>>>Byakuya with bankai. Even in a scuffle which wan't even a fight we've seen Yorichi's base speed far superior than Byakuya's. with that being said we've seen her wtfpwn his shikai into an oblivion. She's so fast that he wasn't even able to release his shikai. all he had to say was "chire senbonzakura" actually any captain can release their shikai without saying it but he's arrogant so he will. but they must say their bankai's name. so do you real think he'd be able to release and say "chire, senbonzakura kageyoshi" no chance of that happening. he'd never have the time to release bankai. the battle would be over with no shikai's or bankais.

I believe Urahara did get hit with the first bala. so what he still replaced himself with a life sized doll and Yammi didn't notice. have u really thought about the kind of speed that would have to entail. that means he

1. took it out
2. blew it up
3. fled to a safe distance

ALL within a blink of an eye. this is >>>>>>>cicada

plus same argument if their bases are unequal you have to assume their bankai's are the same unequal UNLESS ones bankai is a direct counter to anothers. for instance if my bankai is ice and his is fire, then yea ice has no chance.

but benihime is as strong as a cero easily if he wants it to be. we don't even know how strong he can make it. he's never had to show the limits of how strong his shikai blast can be. plus he can make a shield. Senbonzakura is no way on par with a cero in shikai. so if Urahara's shikai is much stronger than Byakuyas why do u think their bankai's would be different?

think about Byakuya in the same situation as urahara in the scan u provided. your saying that byakuaya could have intercepted just as easily. and then what? in shikai AT BEST the most he could hope for was to block SOME of the cero. And this is in a best case scenario. no way he could have dissipated it. and senbonzakura certainly wouldn't have went straight through. the difference between byakuya and Urahara is that while they are both fast and can "finesse it" if you will. Urahara has option of using force and blasting someone into oblivion and meeting force with force. think of him as in between Zaraki and Byakuya. 99% of the time Byakuya will dodge an energy attack thrown at him and 99% of the time Zaraki will just stand there and laugh and say "is that all you got?". While Urahara could dodge like Byakuya but at the same time he can take it head on and counter.

[Sin]

Both of you guys are wrong: he didn't get hit by bara blast at all or esle there would have been a scratch on him look here. The first time he got fired at by wonderrice it looks like it hit him but it really hit his sword. The second one comes from yami and that's when he does the substitution and pokes fun of yami. If you watch the vid everyone was looking. he was so fast that no one saw him. As undying would say. "in the bleach universe speed equals power" and urahara in shikai it seems is more then a match for three espada.

YouTube - Bleach: Epic Battles: Urahara vs Yami

[Jay3205]

@Jay there is already a Byakuya vs. Yoruichi thread so i'll make this short. The reason we say Yoruichi>>>>>>>>Byakuya because Yoruichi without a sword is roughly equal to Byakuya in shikai. So it's logical to conclude Yorichi with a sword >>>>>byakuya with a sword then Yoruichi with bankai >>>>>>Byakuya with bankai. Even in a scuffle which wan't even a fight we've seen Yorichi's base speed far superior than Byakuya's. with that being said we've seen her wtfpwn his shikai into an oblivion. She's so fast that he wasn't even able to release his shikai. all he had to say was "chire senbonzakura" actually any captain can release their shikai without saying it but he's arrogant so he will. but they must say their bankai's name. so do you real think he'd be able to release and say "chire, senbonzakura kageyoshi" no chance of that happening. he'd never have the time to release bankai. the battle would be over with no shikai's or bankais.I usually debate off full power (or as much as we know). In a realistic situation, nobody would ever let the other use bankai in any fight, and nobody would really get to release their full powers. That being said, Yoruichi with a sword doesn't necessarily improve her chances, as she is heavily based on hand-to-hand combat. We can't assume Yoruichi's sword skills are superior to Byakuya; her skill in unarmed combat may simply exceed her sword skills. There must be a reason why she exclusively uses unarmed combat.

I believe Urahara did get hit with the first bala. so what he still replaced himself with a life sized doll and Yammi didn't notice. have u really thought about the kind of speed that would have to entail. that means he

1. took it out
2. blew it up
3. fled to a safe distance

ALL within a blink of an eye. this is >>>>>>>cicada

plus same argument if their bases are unequal you have to assume their bankai's are the same unequal UNLESS ones bankai is a direct counter to anothers. for instance if my bankai is ice and his is fire, then yea ice has no chance.

but benihime is as strong as a cero easily if he wants it to be. we don't even know how strong he can make it. he's never had to show the limits of how strong his shikai blast can be. plus he can make a shield. Senbonzakura is no way on par with a cero in shikai. so if Urahara's shikai is much stronger than Byakuyas why do u think their bankai's would be different?
After Urahara fell in the forest, Yammi just went on a blind rampage. More than likely, the gigai can be inflated much faster than his demonstration, unless Urahara now has ultra fast breathing techniques. There's little difference between cicada and fake gigai... both leave some clothes/object behind and both are performed with the opponent being completely unaware of any change; the main difference is that the object left behind is a fake gigai.

I don't think that unequal shikai means unequal bankai theory holds, as the effects vary too wildly. For instance, Tousen's shikai and bankai are nothing alike. Same with Ichigo and Mayuri (to a large degree). Anyway, my comparison of Byakuya to Urahara with the cero was based on speed alone. It was previously brought up that Urahara must've been extremely fast to get in front of Yoruichi, but it is easily something Byakuya could also do... he just doesn't have a blasting power to actually block with. My point was that before, everyone was saying Urahara would win because he's sooo much stronger and sooo much faster, when he has yet to show any speed or strength that Byakuya is not capable of.

Both of you guys are wrong: he didn't get hit by bara blast at all or esle there would have been a scratch on him look here. The first time he got fired at by wonderrice it looks like it hit him but it really hit his sword. The second one comes from yami and that's when he does the substitution and pokes fun of yami. If you watch the vid everyone was looking. he was so fast that no one saw him. As undying would say. "in the bleach universe speed equals power" and urahara in shikai it seems is more then a match for three espada.There's no proof he wasn't hit by Yammi. He doesn't need to "have a scratch" after one attack... nobody shows any damage after 1 minor hit unless they were completely owned or the opponent is far stronger.

[SenpaiRetsu]

@Chi, Urahara said he won't be hit "again" or something like "it won't work on my again" meaning he got hit the first time. bala is a weak blast, no way 1 bala is putting a scratch on a captain. especially one of the stronger ones.

@jay the main difference between cicada and blowing up a fake gigai is huge. Urahara even said that it's quite difficult to do and probably ONLY he could do it. We've never seen Byakuya display that kind of skill, plenty of people have left after images.

[Sin]

If i had hair i would clearly be ripping it out.

If he got hit with the bara blast then why would he have whipped out the gigai and shown it to old boy? he did not get hit. He said that attack won't work because he knew how to negate it so its mute.

[smach]

I'm saying that whether it's a punch or a cero, if it's already touching you, then it doesn't matter much how fast you are as you are already hit. If Hitsugaya can dodge a "bullet" like attack that's already touching him, it shows that it's not a super great feat of speed.Uh...Why are u comparing Shinsou to cero? as if the speed is even comparable...

The only one paying attention to him was Yammi, at least after Urahara was initially knocked into the forest. There's no proof that he dodged the first bala at all.He may have not dodged the first bala, but something tells me bala wouldn't injure someone who can deflect a cero.

Byakuya only "loses" sight of her because of a special technique, not due to pure speed. If you are referring to the "stunned face" when she jumped over his shoulder, that doesn't mean he lost sight of anyone. Otherwise, we could say Yoruichi lost sight of Byakuya when she was stunned. If she was as fast as bankai Ichigo, she wouldn't have needed to use any special technique to run away.Dude, even Ichigo couldn't react to Yoruichi at the bridge...Not even see the footsteps like he did Byakuya's.

As for Byakuya not losing sight of her...
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/118/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/118/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/118/15/

As for her cicada, she clearly can accomplish more if and when she uses it; she could've finished Byakuya right there if she really wanted to. And she didn't use it to run away, she used SHUNPO to run away.

There's no proof that Urahara dodged the first bala. Since the timing is difficult, he can't effectively time a substitution the first attack (since he didn't see the attack or attacker, and was distracted). Either way, nobody but Yammi paid attention to him after he fell in the forest. Luppi returned to his fight, and Wonderwiess was no longer paying attention either, so we can't say everybody was watching him when he did the substitution.Urahara admitted to being hit. CASE CLOSED.

Here's the distance, showing Yammi wasn't close to Yoruichi (at least, in the sense that shinsou was close to Hitsugaya).
http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-194/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch-12.png.php (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-194/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch-12.png.php)
Whether the distances were far or close, it is not anything that Byakuya could not have done. Byakuya can easily shunpo several dozen meters in an instant. He can shunpo across a bridge in the time while Yoruichi is still in mid-air. It wouldn't be hard for him to shunpo a few feet in the same amount of time. Considering Yoruichi had enough time to say "cero", that's more than enough time for anybody to use shunpo to get in front of Yoruichi.About the cero, Yoruichi didn't say it, she thought it. And the speed of Shinsou can't even be compared to GT or cero, so out goes the Hitsugaya comparison.

About Byakuya's speed on the bridge, he stepped up and managed to level out with Yoruichi's base speed, during which time she already had a restriction (Ichigo) on her shoulder.

1. I don't see how her attack stops "everything" that comes at her. There's no way to say that she can "attack" in every direction, stop a sword/blade, or match the full force of a bankai without using her own. All she's shown is that she can stop a punch, which is a far cry from stopping a bankai... no explanation is ever given in the manga.Byakuya's bankai will never hit. The only reason Ichigo had to disperse all the petals is coz he didn't want to injure Byakuya. If he was being serious then a KGT would've been more than enough for him to land an attack.

2. She can beat Byakuya's speed, but he is far slower than his bankai. Even if Yoruichi was fast enough to outspeed Byakuya, she more than likely can NOT match his bankai's speed. If she could, then she would be able to beat Byakuya, which she admitted she could not do, and resorted to running away. Yoruichi admitting to losing + avoiding a fight with Byakuya shows Byakuya would win.Byakuya only managed to "surround" Ichigo because he wasn't going at full speed the whole time. I doubt Yoruichi will give Byakuya any chance to react to her movements, let alone see them. No reaction time, no landed attacks.

3. Ok... I don't want to upset my friends, my pet dog, or my neighbors, but that doesn't make them a leader.The fact that a person who was highly respected by the senior captains, is now bowing to Urahara and completely loyal to him, goes to show that Urahara is a fearsome and respectable foe indeed.

[Nnoitora]

I'm going to have to say Kisuke. I don't think we seen him at 100% yet. Byakuya either but I believe he use more of his strength than Kisuke.

[Jay3205]

Uh...Why are u comparing Shinsou to cero? as if the speed is even comparable...It is comparable when Shinsou is 1cm away and cero 10+ft away.

He may have not dodged the first bala, but something tells me bala wouldn't injure someone who can deflect a cero.
Ok. I can deflect a baseball with a bat. By your reasoning, the baseball hitting me in the back when I'm not looking wouldn't hurt either.

Dude, even Ichigo couldn't react to Yoruichi at the bridge...Not even see the footsteps like he did Byakuya's.

As for Byakuya not losing sight of her...
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/118/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/118/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/118/15/

As for her cicada, she clearly can accomplish more if and when she uses it; she could've finished Byakuya right there if she really wanted to. And she didn't use it to run away, she used SHUNPO to run away.
Yoruichi was 2 ft away, and Ichigo didn't expect her to attack. It was a sneak attack, and sneak attacks are effective for a reason.

Also, Byakuya "losing sight" of her isn't because she moved so fast to disappear... it's because she went behind him, and Byakuya doesn't have eyes in the back of his head. If he lost sight of her due to speed, then he could not quickly catch up like he does in the next page. If you think Byakuya lost sight due to speed, then please show the panel that shows he could NOT appear in front of her in the next moment.

Please, don't start saying "she could've finished him right there", as both of them could have "finished" the other multiple times, effectively meaning neither could finish the other off.

About the cero, Yoruichi didn't say it, she thought it. And the speed of Shinsou can't even be compared to GT or cero, so out goes the Hitsugaya comparison.

About Byakuya's speed on the bridge, he stepped up and managed to level out with Yoruichi's base speed, during which time she already had a restriction (Ichigo) on her shoulder.
Whether she said it or thought it, there are multiple times when people speak, so the timing is irrelevant.

Also, you're second point doesn't really mean anything besides Byakuya's base speed < Yoruichi's base speed, which is obvious but you keep saying it like it means something in relation to his bankai.

Byakuya's bankai will never hit. The only reason Ichigo had to disperse all the petals is coz he didn't want to injure Byakuya. If he was being serious then a KGT would've been more than enough for him to land an attack.You're point in no way supports your initial statement of "Byakuya's bankai will never hit". There is not even a logical connection between the statements. It's also senseless to say Ichigo didn't want to hurt him, since he stabbed him right after. Finally, I don't see what GT has to do with this at all.

Byakuya only managed to "surround" Ichigo because he wasn't going at full speed the whole time. I doubt Yoruichi will give Byakuya any chance to react to her movements, let alone see them. No reaction time, no landed attacks.Firstly, it is alot easier to surround when your opponent isn't rushing straight at you. If you can run at 15mph, you're not going to reach that speed if you're trying to dodge attacks from every direction ever 2 seconds. Your second point is based off the assumption that Yoruichi is too fast to react to, which is not proven since Byakuya is clearly able to follow her throughout their scuffle. Byakuya can appear in front of her, showing that he followed her movement... meaning she's not "too fast to react to". Again, if this is not the case, point out a location where Byakuya is sitting there wondering what just happened (not counting cicada; jumping over shoulder doesn't count since he followed in the next page, indicating he was fast enough to know what happened and react).

The fact that a person who was highly respected by the senior captains, is now bowing to Urahara and completely loyal to him, goes to show that Urahara is a fearsome and respectable foe indeed.Or... it means they're friends, not that Yoruichi ever bows down to anyone. Also, please show that Yoruichi was "highly respected" anymore than any other captain.

[Sin]

@Jay: Let me ask you something, if Byakuya fought Ukitake or Shunsui who do you think would win?

@Mods: this is relevant to my argument here so bare with me.

[Jay3205]

@Chi: Probably lose to Shunsui. For Ukitake, it would depend on whether his sickness acts up. If this question is in response to the "nobody" statement, "nobody", in reference to the place the speaker himself is in, includes the speaker, with the exception of purposely lying.

[ninjabot]

There's something I wanted to adress about Urahara's kidou. It's been stated that the reason Urahara's kidou is assumed to be better than Byakuya's is because of that one instance where he opened a portal to Hueco Mundo by snapping his fingers. At a glance, that seems significant...but according to Mayuri, Urahara is the only person with sufficient knowlege of Garganta.

He never says "the only person skilled enough with Kidou to use Garganta is Urahara." This leads me to believe that the ability to make Garganta doesn't translate into the ability to use offensive and defensive Kidou of high power. On the contrary, it means that he's really good at making Garganta. Add that to the fact that EVERY time we see a Kidou used, the name and number is called out. Byakuya even uses the name and number when using Hadou #1: Shou.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/301/06/

We're not gonna make the assumption that Byakuya is so lame at using Kidou that he has to use partial incantation for performing the very first spell in the Kidou list are we? Keep in mind that the difficulty of spells are determined by the number.

[Sin]

Funny how you said Byakuya had to say the name of that weak ass spell. I have the direct counter to that, Urhara doesn't have to say anything and i don't think his kidou was as weak as the one Byakuya performed.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/48/15/

In the kidoh battle Urahara takes it easily, i mean look at who his subordinate is, Tessai Ex captain of the Kidoh corps. let's be realistic here.

[ninjabot]

I am being realistic. You've shown me instances where Urahara is really good at doing something other than hurting people with kidou. That's:

1: opening a gate
2:immobilizing a terribly weak gigai by tapping her (a gigai he created btw).

Again, I gotta ask if you really think any of these makes him powerful enough to beat Byakuya in a direct kidou clash. It's like you're implying Urahara's Byakurai is going to shoot right through Byakuya's Danku barrier, or he's going to pull out an un-botched Black Coffin against him (something Aizen couldn't even do).

And again about saying the name: how many times have we seen Tessai use a kidou that we can compare to Byakuya's without calling the name and number? Same for Urahara?

[FullMetal Rebel]

Don't underestimate Byakuya's kidou...................

[Sin]

Don't underestimate Urahara's kidoh >.>

Look at the company he keeps, chances are he's probably just as good if not slightly better then Tessai and yurouichi. Don't be to suprised if you see Urahra bust out a shunko.

[FullMetal Rebel]

Thats all pure speculation. Until Urahara shows Byakuya's skill with kidou, Urahara cannot beat Byakuya in a kidou clash.

I could say Ukitake is weak, because of the company he keeps(His two Vice Captains)

[Sin]

that's unfair to make that comparison just because they got owned by Capt doesn't mean they're weak. Plus Byakuya hasn't demonstrated any great feat of Kidoh either. At least Urahara showed a great feat of kidoh in opening garganta to Hueco Mundo which no other person in SS including Byakuya can do.

[Sendivoge]

I think you mean 'Kaien was his VC'. :)

Eh i get your point, to an extent, but Urahara really stands more noticeably as an equel with his company. Ukitake's Third Seats spend half their time grovelling on their knees as they endlessly compete to be their captain's favourite and most loyal subordinate. I'm sure there must be better examples than that.

[Sin]

Not to mention Ukitake's 3rd seat aren't comparable to Urahara's Capt level shinigami. Who are loyal to him instead of Yamamoto. Besides this is getting far off topic. Bykuya is skillful yes he knows kidou but to presume he would rely on it like some weakling is far more insulting then anything. In my opinion, Urahara is a stronger more versatile version Mayuri with less Sadistic tendencies. He trained with Ichigo and according to the scans he even admitted to being a little bit serious and look at the power he displayed just in his shikai. He could take out the 10th espada just in his shikai too. So your telling me he would lose to Byakuya? we haven't even really seen anything Urahara can do yet and its obvious who has the greater power, intellect, agility and ability not to mention to think on his quickly on his feet. And in my opinion that Gigai replacement while an incoming Bala/bara blast was coming tells me he's faster then Byakuya is. xD

*Sorry Byakuya fans but you know its true*

[Rainl]

Not to mention Ukitake's 3rd seat aren't comparable to Urahara's Capt level shinigami. Who are loyal to him instead of Yamamoto. Besides this is getting far off topic. Bykuya is skillful yes he knows kidou but to presume he would rely on it like some weakling is far more insulting then anything. In my opinion, Urahara is a stronger more versatile version Mayuri with less Sadistic tendencies. He trained with Ichigo and according to the scans he even admitted to being a little bit serious and look at the power he displayed just in his shikai. He could take out the 10th espada just in his shikai too. So your telling me he would lose to Byakuya? we haven't even really seen anything Urahara can do yet and its obvious who has the greater power, intellect, agility and ability not to mention to think on his quickly on his feet. And in my opinion that Gigai replacement while an incoming Bala/bara blast was coming tells me he's faster then Byakuya is. xD

*Sorry Byakuya fans but you know its true*

You might as well brace yourself my friend..lol. This debate is pretty much futile to discuss anyways in my opinion..
There's no way to be absolutely sure who'd win. We've only seen a slim piece of what Urahara is capable of. Byakuya on the other hand, has shown nearly everything in his aresnal imo.

For this very reason you could say since Byakuya has shown more, he's superior. For this same reason. You can also say since we've seen nothing of Urahara we can't say who's superior. Its no use.

Sure people can try to come in here and try to gauge power by screen time, but that isn't right..and its pointless to try and use it to strengthen a debate.

Conclusion: Pointless thread until further evidence is given. Draw.

[Esca]

Conclusion: Pointless thread until further evidence is given. Draw.

QFT.

/closed

:awe:

[Sandal Hat]

QFT.

/closed

:awe:


hmm....

ahh...


QFT*. :)

I have no idea what you're talking about. :awe:


Nice save.