[Manga Spoilers] Byakuya vs. Urahara [Archive]

Dexter

02-20-2008, 11:35 AM

Vote ..almost easily ... goes to Urahara.

No offence to Byakuya fans. None taken Decado (I'm a Bya fan).

They both are very intelligent. they both have bankai's not approriate for training purposes
Urahara's experience and age > Byakuya's

It's tough Urahara is a genius and strong. Byakuya is smart, and much better shape to battle.
lol. From where do you draw this conclusion?
his techniques are flawless.
And how do you know Urahara, a former captain, isn't either?

You've seen Byakuya in Bankai. You haven't seen Urahara in Bankai.

We also have yet to see if Benihime can make a shield completely around him like Orihime i don't if the names are supposed to coordinate at all.

I say that has no defense for SKY if he can't completely cover himself. So if Urahara can cover himself, then i might give the battle to him. but If he can't I give it to Byakuya because SKY plus Kidou is too much for almost anyone to handle.
Again, you're basing it as if Urahara ONLY has shikai. he has a bankai.

Secondly, if someone like Yama was hit by Byakuya's SKY, he would hardly feel a thing due to his reiatsu.

Urahara isn't Renji. He won't be so easily held in a Kidou spell.

Even Renji survived a direct bankai hit from Byakuya.

And if anyone decides to use plot against Urahara, here's plot FOR Urahara (basically the ONLY TRUE argument that ENSURES Urahara > Byakuya)

Urahara's bankai has not been shown. Most of those that haven't had their best and most powerful techniques shown are reserved for the final most powerful battles.

Undying

02-20-2008, 12:48 PM

Um, Byakuya is strong. His sexiness rules over all. Urahara can never beat him.

Ok now seriously. Everyone should know I am 100% for Byakuya any time. I believe I've made it a clear point that I know Byakuya could probably beat anyone.

Now, I say that Urahara would win.

Reasons:

1. He's a senior. The only people with any acceptable superiority to Byakuya are his seniors, as they have greater experience than he does, and more time with their respective bankais and shikais.

2. He's been shown to possess a variety of gadgets/special additions which may be used against Byakuya's attacks (though Byakuya's attack is omnidirectional, Urahara could, for example, use his special Gigai thing and replace himself - and there is a high possibility that he is fast and experienced enough to do it properly, even in the face of Byakuya).

3. His shikai possesses one superiority over Byakuya's as it has an AoE wave-type attack, similar to Ichigo's Getsuga. Assuming he cannot see Senbonzakura (due to his experience he may be able to see the reflections of light rather well, giving him a general idea of the actual location of the weapon), he can still simply use his attack to target an area, so he could negate Byakuya's shikai.

4. Bankai - although Byakuya's bankai is one of the more difficult ones to fight (and haters can go and stick themselves where the sun no shine, you CANNOT easily stop an omnidirectional attack, nor can you disperse that amount of objects easily), since we haven't seen any of Urahara's, that suggests it possesses abilities that are too strong for him to use freely (e.g., a greater version of the "Nake Benihima" attack, which allows him to effectively create an opening to escape through).

So all in all, being a senior and being generally portrayed as quite a powerful character with a great amount of experience on the battlefield (there hasn't been a single fight so far where he was anywhere near serious - every time he was all smiles and light conversation.

Of course, I doubt there will be any easy fighting - Byakuya's weapons/techniques/mastery are more than a problem for anyone. And Urahara will still have to find a way around SKY - assuming he doesn't have the convenient ability that is the only counter to it. I predict a serious fight with a lot of trouble for either, but making a clear judgment is hard considering I can only go for shikais.

diamondedge

02-20-2008, 12:58 PM

Urahara. :)

He is a senior, he created the Hogyoku, the thing that erases boundaries between shinigami and hollow powers and invented a technique to achieve bankai in 3 days.
His bankai has not yet been shown but when he said it can't be use to train others I imagine it's something seriously destructible.

I do think Bykauya would give him a serious run for his money, but I don't think Byakuya on his level quite yet, despite being very good at what he does. In the end, I believe it would be a good batle that Urahara would win due to his status and experience in the long run. But what gives me hope is that we still have yet to see Byakuya go against someone that is equal to him in power.

But, Even Renji survived a direct bankai hit from Byakuya.
Nobody dies in Bleach?

Dexter

02-20-2008, 01:02 PM

Nobody dies in Bleach?
Yeah. It's still a valid point though. Kubo didn't have to have Byakuya's bankai shred Renji and still survive. But he needed to show it's power before Ichigo fought Byakuya, as a "oh no he's too strong for Ichigo" moment.
And it still follows that Urahara > Byakuya > Renji

diamondedge

02-20-2008, 01:05 PM

What point does that comparison make, if Byakuya even specifically stated he was holding back?

Dexter

02-20-2008, 01:07 PM

SenpaiRetsu

02-20-2008, 02:32 PM

The point of Renji surviving Byakuya's bankai (even if he with-held power) was made because NisamaPwns stated: "but If he can't I give it to Byakuya because SKY plus Kidou is too much for almost anyone to handle."

sure Renji handled that well :whatevah:

Zomari got hit with SKY and had Kidou used on him.... he handled it well.

Ichigo got hit with it and got up and smiled and talked about his bankai, but we all know he's ichigo. most people wouldn't get up with a smile on their face accept Zaraki probably.

One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that people talk about getting hit with SKY isn't that stong, we have never seen anybody get hit with it more than once, because in most cases that's way over-doing it. If anyone were to get hit with SKY several time i gurantee they are not getting up, UNLESS there riatsu is so incredibly strong that it can't pierce them.

@Wolverine, where do i draw the conclusion Byakuya is in better battle shape? um he's a battle oriented captain, Urahara is a retired scientist. Not saying he's not strong. but he hasn't been combating nearly as much as a normal captain would.

I see where u all are coming from. either way i don't think it'd be an easy battle. and the only reason i say byakuya because i haven't seen the max of either of their abilities i have seen more of byakuya's than Uraharas.

That little doll trick will probably work on Byakuya once, you can bet it won't work again. how many of those things can he have with them?

So my instincts tell me Urahara is stronger than Byakuya but i can't really see how he'd be able to consistently avoid SKY, not even Ichigo would have been able to, but of course plotkai, Bya switched to Senkei, when we all know he could have easily kept making Ichigo run until he got to tired to move, and then shredded him.

but at the same time i think Unohana would wreck Byakuya and i haven't seen her fight at all. so the senior status does hold some weight into this argument. however Tosen and Mayuri are/were both senior officers and surely you don't think either of them could beat Byakuya in a straight fight. mayuri is way to slow and Tosen's would get destroyed by SKY in an enclosed space, that'd be the worst possible thing. for one it'd be easier to find a target, and the only reason SKY looks like cherry blossoms is because there is light to reflect. If there is no light to reflect it it's completly invisible, it's kind of moot point anyway because Tosen is "blind" in the first place.

Undying

02-20-2008, 03:35 PM

sure Renji handled that well :whatevah:

Zomari got hit with SKY and had Kidou used on him.... he handled it well.
Because Byakuya's target wasn't Zomari - his target was Zomari's eyes. As we've seen he had the necessary attack power to kill Zomari with a slash without bankai; but in order to avoid Amor, he removed Zomari's eyes (notice how all the eyes were bleeding while Zomari, who hid inside his pumpkin, was nearly unhurt?)
Ichigo got hit with it and got up and smiled and talked about his bankai, but we all know he's ichigo. most people wouldn't get up with a smile on their face accept Zaraki probably.
Ichigo is Ichigo. Also, Ichigo could have effectively hide behind his WIDE sword to block some of the direct damage to his vitals. And if Byakuya was holding back as well, that makes Ichigo's surviving even more plausible.
One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that people talk about getting hit with SKY isn't that stong, we have never seen anybody get hit with it more than once, because in most cases that's way over-doing it. If anyone were to get hit with SKY several time i gurantee they are not getting up, UNLESS there riatsu is so incredibly strong that it can't pierce them.
Precisely. Byakuya haven't once used his attack power to maximum efficiency - he attacked once, and then swapped to other abilities.
@Wolverine, where do i draw the conclusion Byakuya is in better battle shape? um he's a battle oriented captain, Urahara is a retired scientist. Not saying he's not strong. but he hasn't been combating nearly as much as a normal captain would.
Are you suggesting that Urahara was fighting in those last 100 years? Yoruichi hasn't been, so why would Urahara? Dec is just basing his assumption on Yoruichi's peaceful last 100 years.

Both are plausible, really, but I'd go more for peace - Urahara would probably want to lay low for a while, so I doubt he fought anything seriously in the last 100 years, which would make Byakuya, who clearly spent time training (to become a captain, and probably fighting beforehand to keep his skills sharp, remember how he told Renji he had to intervene in order to avoid losing his skills?)) be in a better fighting shape.

I see where u all are coming from. either way i don't think it'd be an easy battle. and the only reason i say byakuya because i haven't seen the max of either of their abilities i have seen more of byakuya's than Uraharas.
That little doll trick will probably work on Byakuya once, you can bet it won't work again. how many of those things can he have with them?
We have all agreed that it would be an insanely difficult fight for either - experience and power on both sides are plenty.

But Urahara is his senior, etc.

If Urahara has the needed AoE offensive power, he can effectively disperse SKY enough in order to slide through an opening (you don't need to blast it ALL off, just make a hole without petals and avoid, then attack).
[quote]but at the same time i think Unohana would wreck Byakuya and i haven't seen her fight at all. so the senior status does hold some weight into this argument. however Tosen and Mayuri are/were both senior officers and surely you don't think either of them could beat Byakuya in a straight fight. mayuri is way to slow and Tosen's would get destroyed by SKY in an enclosed space, that'd be the worst possible thing. for one it'd be easier to find a target, and the only reason SKY looks like cherry blossoms is because there is light to reflect. If there is no light to reflect it it's completly invisible, it's kind of moot point anyway because Tosen is "blind" in the first place.
The only "seniors" capable of beating Byakuya are Unohana (I dunno why, she's just... herself?) Ukitake and Shunsui (based on Yama's proclamations), and Yama. The others all simply don't have offensive/defensive power to avoid SKY (take Komamura for example - he sure can blast SKY apart, but how will he stop Byakuya from simply sliding those petals around him and impaling him with semi-Senkei?

As I said, it's a tough call - I'd just place experience on Urahara's side. I suppose Byakuya COULD beat him. There's no way to tell without Urahara showing his bankai.

SenpaiRetsu

02-20-2008, 04:14 PM

Because Byakuya's target wasn't Zomari - his target was Zomari's eyes. As we've seen he had the necessary attack power to kill Zomari with a slash without bankai; but in order to avoid Amor, he removed Zomari's eyes (notice how all the eyes were bleeding while Zomari, who hid inside his pumpkin, was nearly unhurt?)
Ichigo is Ichigo. Also, Ichigo could have effectively hide behind his WIDE sword to block some of the direct damage to his vitals. And if Byakuya was holding back as well, that makes Ichigo's surviving even more plausible.
Precisely. Byakuya haven't once used his attack power to maximum efficiency - he attacked once, and then swapped to other abilities.
Are you suggesting that Urahara was fighting in those last 100 years? Yoruichi hasn't been, so why would Urahara? Dec is just basing his assumption on Yoruichi's peaceful last 100 years.
Both are plausible, really, but I'd go more for peace - Urahara would probably want to lay low for a while, so I doubt he fought anything seriously in the last 100 years, which would make Byakuya, who clearly spent time training (to become a captain, and probably fighting beforehand to keep his skills sharp, remember how he told Renji he had to intervene in order to avoid losing his skills?)) be in a better fighting shape.
We have all agreed that it would be an insanely difficult fight for either - experience and power on both sides are plenty.
But Urahara is his senior, etc.
If Urahara has the needed AoE offensive power, he can effectively disperse SKY enough in order to slide through an opening (you don't need to blast it ALL off, just make a hole without petals and avoid, then attack).
The only "seniors" capable of beating Byakuya are Unohana (I dunno why, she's just... herself?) Ukitake and Shunsui (based on Yama's proclamations), and Yama. The others all simply don't have offensive/defensive power to avoid SKY (take Komamura for example - he sure can blast SKY apart, but how will he stop Byakuya from simply sliding those petals around him and impaling him with semi-Senkei?
As I said, it's a tough call - I'd just place experience on Urahara's side. I suppose Byakuya COULD beat him. There's no way to tell without Urahara showing his bankai.

i agree, it's probably just best to wait for him to show his bankai and re-evaulate it. and before that was the point i was trying to make, with SKY was that he hasn't REALLY used it at max. Zomari he as just taking out the eyes, and Ichigo he let up on it and Renji he wasn't trying to kill at that point.

that was an excellent point u made about him having enough AoE power to slip through. if that were to happen i suppose Byakuya would be defenseless. It's kind of a long-shot but i can definitely see it happening if his shikai can negate a cero effortlessly then clearly if his bankai is anything related to his shikai he can do something similar only the magnitude would make GT look like child's play.

davidn15

02-20-2008, 04:46 PM

When Chad asked Urahara to train him, Urahara said something along the lines of "My bankai isn't suited to train you."

Now i'm gonna translate that to If I use my bankai ur gonna die. Sure it could just mean his bankai isn't meant for fighting, but I dont think so. And sure Chad is so much weaker Byakuya. But what I'm getting to is that Urahara probably has some kick a** bankai that would wipe the floor with Byakuya. This is not a bias opinion. I'm a fan of both, moreso Byakuya.

Seff vi Britannia

02-20-2008, 05:05 PM

Urahara.

He's just being made out to be strong - he's shown to be a genius - more so than Byakuya, at least (did Byakuya get bankai in three days? :P Even by cheating - he's still a genius)

Not to mention Benihime energy blast would have the same effect on Senbonsakura as GT.

diamondedge

02-20-2008, 06:26 PM

sure Renji handled that well :whatevah:

Zomari got hit with SKY and had Kidou used on him.... he handled it well.
If he handled it so well, he should have no problems whatsoever defending against Byakuya's most basic attack that took him down. If my memory serves me, Zomari died by Byakuya's unreleased blade.

but at the same time i think Unohana would wreck Byakuya and i haven't seen her fight at all. so the senior status does hold some weight into this argument.
Hm, there could be an interesting debate opened about the power of seniors. Now I'm not questioning senior capatin's ability to win a fight, I have given this a bit of thought.

While Unohana herself is pwnage, if her shikai/bankai is strictly healing oriented ability, that could be a bit problematic. She with her own abilities could not be the match for someone who has mastered his bankai and all areas of shinigami combat. If bankai function was not important, people wouldn't bother achieving it.

Kubo obviously made her a strong character so I can't deny she is not powerful, but I am really taking her pwnage factor with reserve until I actually see full extent of her powers. :)

That giant mantis she had as her bankai/shikai, seemed to have no combat capabilities at all and worst of all, no agility.

As for Ukitake - if we are comparing him to Byakuya he would not be taken down easily, since messing around with SKY requires top notch stamina, which Ukitake lacks. Unless his bankai is something really haxx, I have hard time seeing him taking Bykauya easily, despite being his senior.

Shunsui is entirely different matter - I will take Yamamoto's praise for him as proof of his strength, he has no handicap and seems to be combat oriented.

What wins Urahara the battle here is experience - while Byakuya is master of every area of combat and a well rounded fighter I believe it is the details that would decide the match. f they fought it would would be a close one, as someone who has mastered something can't be simply stomped on. Urahara isn't the only one portrayed and fearsome and powerful - author has made an image of Byakuya and he kept it even when Byakuya was absent from manga for nearly 150 chapters: He does not loose and he does not struggle. :)

Now, another thing for "saving best for the last". I doubt author's intention with the story was to save t3h pwnerers till the end just so he can show how powerful they are for having their abilities revealed at the very end. I don't question their power, but such characters aren't the only one that were portrayed as elite.

Biased or not, Byakuya was shown as an elite fighter from the moment he appeared and was the first person so show the meaning of "power gap" in Bleach, so I honestly doubt he is"just another captain" in the Gotei 13. There is a certain image authors build with characters, and how powerful a character is can be portrayed with many different ways. While Bykauya certainly isn't the strongest captain, I sincerely hope we get to see a limit of his power and see him struggle and take an opponent serious. With his personality, it's terribly hard to decide - even for me - where his limits lie.

My two cents, feel free to agree/disagree. :)

Undying

02-20-2008, 06:32 PM

If he handled it so well, he should have no problems whatsoever defending against Byakuya's most basic attack that took him down. If my memory serves me, Zomari died by Byakuya's unreleased blade.
Hm, there could be an interesting debate opened about the power of seniors. Now I'm not questioning senior capatin's ability to win a fight, I have given this a bit of thought.
While Unohana herself is pwnage, if her shikai/bankai is strictly healing oriented ability, that could be a bit problematic. She with her own abilities could not be the match for someone who has mastered his bankai and all areas of shinigami combat. If bankai function was not important, people wouldn't bother achieving it.
Kubo obviously made her a strong character so I can't deny she is not powerful, but I am really taking her pwnage factor with reserve until I actually see full extent of her powers. :)
That giant mantis she had as her bankai/shikai, seemed to have no combat capabilities at all and worst of all, no agility.
As for Ukitake - if we are comparing him to Byakuya he would not be taken down easily, since messing around with SKY requires top notch stamina, which Ukitake lacks. Unless his bankai is something really haxx, I have hard time seeing him taking Bykauya easily, despite being his senior.
Shunsui is entirely different matter - I will take Yamamoto's praise for him as proof of his strength, he has no handicap and seems to be combat oriented.
What wins Urahara the battle here is experience - while Byakuya is master of every area of combat and a well rounded fighter I believe it is the details that would decide the match. f they fought it would would be a close one, as someone who has mastered something can't be simply stomped on. Urahara isn't the only one portrayed and fearsome and powerful - author has made an image of Byakuya and he kept it even when Byakuya was absent from manga for nearly 150 chapters: He does not loose and he does not struggle. :)
Now, another thing for "saving best for the last". I doubt author's intention with the story was to save t3h pwnerers till the end just so he can show how powerful they are for having their abilities revealed at the very end. I don't question their power, but such characters aren't the only one that were portrayed as elite.
Biased or not, Byakuya was shown as an elite fighter from the moment he appeared and was the first person so show the meaning of "power gap" in Bleach, so I honestly doubt he is"just another captain" in the Gotei 13. There is a certain image authors build with characters, and how powerful a character is can be portrayed with many different ways. While Bykauya certainly isn't the strongest captain, I sincerely hope we get to see a limit of his power and see him struggle and take an opponent serious. With his personality, it's terribly hard to decide - even for me - where his limits lie.
My two cents, feel free to agree/disagree. :)
No one can beat an omnidirectional, extremely fast attack so easily, and that's just one aspect of Byakuya's power.

The only person I see easily stomping over Byakuya is Yamamoto; his shikai supposedly destroys everything, and seeing as he is the same amount of power as two captains easily AND he can probably just engulf the playing filed in flames... well, it will come down to whether his fire can effectively melt down SKY.

But other than him...

No one has the speed to easily beat SKY (except Ichigo), no one has the ability (so far) shown to defend against it effectively.

So while his powers are not top tier yet (experience, probably), he is still more powerful than his "power level" suggests.

Just adding up :p.

Seff vi Britannia

02-20-2008, 10:49 PM

No one can beat an omnidirectional, extremely fast attack so easily, and that's just one aspect of Byakuya's power.

Funny that. Cause if someone put me in a room full of flying feathers that crashed into me from every single side at the speed of a bullet, i don't think i'd be hurt.

Undying

02-20-2008, 10:56 PM

Funny that. Cause if someone put me in a room full of flying feathers that crashed into me from every single side at the speed of a bullet, i don't think i'd be hurt.
Especially when those feathers destroy buildings.

Yeah, sure, you wouldn't be scratched. I suppose you can headbutt through walls too.

h3h3h3

02-20-2008, 11:38 PM

I don't think he can easily win Byakuya, but it's quite clear he has more relevance as a strong guy. Urahara.

Dexter

02-21-2008, 12:18 AM

Funny that. Cause if someone put me in a room full of flying feathers that crashed into me from every single side at the speed of a bullet, i don't think i'd be hurt.
QFT.

@Undying: I don't think you got what he meant. He means if the blades aren't powerful enough to cause damage against someone with mass reiatsu (therefore nullifying blades to feather-like) it would basically be like feathers touching you from all directions. You could waltz right through them.

Undying

02-21-2008, 12:29 AM

QFT.
@Undying: I don't think you got what he meant. He means if the blades aren't powerful enough to cause damage against someone with mass reiatsu (therefore nullifying blades to feather-like) it would basically be like feathers touching you from all directions. You could waltz right through them.
There's not a single character in Bleach capable of completely stopping a full-powered attack from a captain (with the sole exception from Aizen, and even in his case people argue it was illusion).

So yeah, when you can show me someone capable of withstanding such an attack (not Aizen), maybe I'll buy your "feathers" argument.

Until then, my point holds. Edn.

Dexter

02-21-2008, 12:34 AM

So yeah, when you can show me someone capable of withstanding such an attack (not Aizen), maybe I'll buy your "feathers" argument.
Until then, my point holds. Edn.
rofl. I think you fail to understand that this is "in theory."

When someone is extremely weak, say a normal shinigami, they cannot cut a captain due to the difference of reiatsu. The sword will feel like a feather.

It's quite an easy concept to grasp. It's been shown before.

Undying

02-21-2008, 12:38 AM

rofl. I think you fail to understand that this is "in theory."
When someone is extremely weak, say a normal shinigami, they cannot cut a captain due to the difference of reiatsu. The sword will feel like a feather.
It's quite an easy concept to grasp. It's been shown before.
And I think that for a Byakuya fan and for an intelligent person, you fail to grasp what I'm saying :).

Byakuya's offensive power in bankai is equal to 20+ "Renji" bankai. And it is also around 1/5 or so of the total destructive power of Ichigo/Kenpachi clashing at full power (see crater size).

That's ONE attack.

And for the record, drop several hundreds of millions of feathers on you from all directions at bullet speed. Just the weight would at least break your bones :rolleye09.

Dexter

02-21-2008, 01:03 AM

Byakuya's offensive power in bankai is equal to 20+ "Renji" bankai. And it is also around 1/5 or so of the total destructive power of Ichigo/Kenpachi clashing at full power (see crater size).
That's ONE attack.
I know what you're saying. But you're taking it too literally. It's an analogy of strength against a more powerful foe.

It doesn't matter about Renji, Ganju, all other weak characters.

In principle. In Theory. It would matter little against someone of higher reiatsu.

And for the record, drop several hundreds of millions of feathers on you from all directions at bullet speed. Just the weight would at least break your bones :rolleye09.
This is what I mean. You're taking it literally, currently, against characters such as Renji.

The principle is the "at that time when Ichigo couldn't cut Zaraki" notion.

Guy

02-21-2008, 01:18 AM

Funny that. Cause if someone put me in a room full of flying feathers that crashed into me from every single side at the speed of a bullet, i don't think i'd be hurt.

OH SHIT, really? Teach me your secret! How can you not be affected by friction?

You know, a piece of CLOTH can break your bones if used properly. I have training in martial arts and I KNOW this to be a fact. And human beings cannot attack with cloth anywhere NEAR the speed of sound.

Anything traveling at the speed of sound WILL hurt you, and that includes the AIR around you.

Dexter

02-21-2008, 01:38 AM

Again, the literal nature of analogies shouldn't be taken.

The point is: a massive metal ram against a metal door.

Or a feather against a metal door.

DarkSlayer

02-21-2008, 01:46 AM

TBH we don't know enough about Urahara to be able to say for sure, so you guys can argue about technicalities all you want. The fact remains that we don't know what kind of stunt Urahara could randomly pull out of his ass last second. Not to mention his Bankai.

We've only seen Urahara use Shikai at most, and we've seen Byakuya go all out using all three forms of his Bankai. We know that yes, Byakuya can throw down with the best of 'em, but we also know that Urahara has been around for a very long time - much longer than Byakuya - and as someone else stated (too lazy and too tired to find out who) Urahara never seems to take any of his fights seriously.

Example: Urahara wtfpwns Yammi (10th Espada) without breaking a sweat.

So until we see Urahara fight someone who actually poses as a challenge to him, we wont be able to make a fair judgement.

SenpaiRetsu

02-21-2008, 04:29 AM

Wow i must say i'm surprised, more people think Urahara takes this easily. i can see either one of them winning, but i don't see it being an easy battle.

I'm curious to hear from all the people that Urahara takes it easily what evidence they have to support this view? I don't see how anybody other than Yamamoto or Aizen could pwn Byakuya easily. Even Unohana, Shunsui, and Ukitake i think could readily beat him but it would hardly be easy.

What has been implied or what has he demonstrated that he'd have an easy win over Byakuya......... Just older and more experienced doesn't count. we don't know if most of this "experience" was even combat. mayuri hardly fights why should we think Urahara fights often? they both have bankai's that are not approriate for training.............

B-Eazy

02-21-2008, 05:00 AM

I see my man Kisuke easily for several reasons.

1. Science and Combat. Hes Mayuri with Byakuya combat skills and speed somewhere in the ball park of Yoruichi.

2. He completely made a joke of Yammi in shikai and did a substitution jutsu... Bleach characters don't generally use jutsu.

3. Intelligence. He can dissipate attacks after SEEING them once. He most definitely would have a defense for sky.

4. Senior. Basically like everyone else is saying, he's experienced. Skills are well defined and he is very confident in everything he does.

All in all, i think Kisuke would be too much because of his all around high stats. We've seen Byakuya battle seriously several times but Kisuke, always laughing. Serious battle reiatsu> Laughing battle reiatsu.

(this does not include whatever abilities KT is hiding. We know he definitely has a secret)

diamondedge

02-21-2008, 05:08 AM

In principle. In Theory. It would matter little against someone of higher reiatsu.

Are you saying Byakuya's reiatsu is weak? :eek13:
Save for Aizen, can you show me one character whose reiatsu is so much stronger than Byakuya's so that your "theory" would actually make sense? Thanx.

smach

02-21-2008, 05:11 AM

@byakuya87: it's currently been upgraded to *four*

@NisamaPwns: like most ppl have already mentioned, we've never seen urahara take a fight seriously. that in itself doesn't say much, but it implies something nevertheless. we've also seen him virtually nullify a cero and fire an equal attack, all with two effortless swings of his shikai.

it's arguable that the cero from yami was as powerful as grimjow's first, but seeing how he he effortlessly used his shikai makes him even more amazing, compared to how bankai+vizard ichigo struggled with his.

@dia: personally i don't think urahara's reiatsu/strength is that amazing, but his hidden bankai tactics (ie inventions, bankai, etc) along with this shikai should end up being quite a feat. but just like byakuya, i think he's only gonna pull them out when needed...just like how byakuya used bankai n that hidden spell only when it was a necessity.

OH SHIT, really? Teach me your secret! How can you not be affected by friction?

You know, a piece of CLOTH can break your bones if used properly. I have training in martial arts and I KNOW this to be a fact. And human beings cannot attack with cloth anywhere NEAR the speed of sound.

Anything traveling at the speed of sound WILL hurt you, and that includes the AIR around you.i hope u remember that this is bleach world...where you can literally slice buildings in half with the swing of a sword...or pulverise them with an ub3r powerful stake that's roughly the size of a pc mouse. also remember that there are characters who've taken such attacks head-on but suffered no type of injury.

Dexter

02-21-2008, 05:22 AM

Are you saying Byakuya's reiatsu is weak? :eek13:
Save for Aizen, can you show me one character whose reiatsu is so much stronger than Byakuya's so that your "theory" would actually make sense? Thanx.
Rofl. I never said his reiatsu was weaker. That's the "in theory" part.....

Idk why ppl find it so hard to understand the basic matter of "A's" reiatsu vs "B's" reiatsu. Where A is anyone with weaker reiatsu.

Or do you people seriously believe that someone without a shikai can damage a Captain like Yama in bankai?

SenpaiRetsu

02-21-2008, 05:30 AM

Rofl. I never said his reiatsu was weaker. That's the "in theory" part.....
Idk why ppl find it so hard to understand the basic matter of "A's" reiatsu vs "B's" reiatsu. Where A is anyone with weaker reiatsu.
Or do you people seriously believe that someone without a shikai can damage a Captain like Yama in bankai?

What you are saying makes sense, but i think Dia and Undying are saying is that it's doubtful that Urahara's riatsu is so massive that SKY wouldn't be able to damage him. The only person i can confidently say that SKY would not pierce is Yama. He'd probably melt SKY into nothingness or it just couldn't pierce him outright. but the argument is about Urahara, while i am very impressed with him, i don't think his riatsu is at that level.

I see my man Kisuke easily for several reasons.

1. Science and Combat. Hes Mayuri with Byakuya combat skills and speed somewhere in the ball park of Yoruichi.

somewhere in the ballpark of Yoruichi? the goddess of flash? scan please, i don't think there speed is in the same ballpark though i do think he's much stonger than her because he has his zanpakouto

2. He completely made a joke of Yammi in shikai and did a substitution jutsu... Bleach characters don't generally use jutsu.

That would work once on Byakuya, it didn't work at all when Zomari tried. he didn't lay one hand on Byakuya. Kthanks

3. Intelligence. He can dissipate attacks after SEEING them once. He most definitely would have a defense for sky.

O really? how do u figure he can "dissipate" SKY it doesn't even matter if u can see it or not, or if u know it's there, it's still an omnidirectional attack. good luck dodging that for an extended period of time.

4. Senior. Basically like everyone else is saying, he's experienced. Skills are well defined and he is very confident in everything he does.

can't argue with that. And no Byakuya is never confident with everything he does.

All in all, i think Kisuke would be too much because of his all around high stats. We've seen Byakuya battle seriously several times but Kisuke, always laughing. Serious battle reiatsu> Laughing battle reiatsu.

he's laughing only because that's his personality. byakuya is uptight. Byakuya could have laughed at renji, and zomari but he didn't. laughing would look really dumb out of Byakuya. i think i'd be scared if that happened.

Dexter

02-21-2008, 05:38 AM

What you are saying makes sense, but i think Dia and Undying are saying is that it's doubtful that Urahara's riatsu is so massive that SKY wouldn't be able to damage him.
I agree. I was never saying that URAHARA'S reiatsu was that big. I made one post on the theory of reiatsu blocking a weak foe's attack, which seemed to escalate, and people seemed to think I was saying Urahara had that reiatsu. People need to read the earlier posts first.

diamondedge

02-21-2008, 05:39 AM

B-Eazy

02-21-2008, 06:00 AM

somewhere in the ballpark of Yoruichi? the goddess of flash? scan please, i don't think there speed is in the same ballpark though i do think he's much stonger than her because he has his zanpakouto Let me rephrase, he is fast enough to defend and defeat someone of Yoruicihis speed class, no?

That would work once on Byakuya, it didn't work at all when Zomari tried. he didn't lay one hand on Byakuya. Kthanks your missing the point. when did we see him have an inflatable gigai before Yammi? Never. So, basically inflatable gigais are only the tip of the iceberg. He's been in the Human world for almost a hundred years, who knows what he has hidden in his shop. A genius like him would never pull out his best inventions for Yammi but if he was fighting someone of Byakuyas caliber how could pull out the A-Class invention box.
And don't forget the speed necessary to inflate the gigai, switch it into ur spot and not be seen.
O really? how do u figure he can "dissipate" SKY it doesn't even matter if u can see it or not, or if u know it's there, it's still an omnidirectional attack. good luck dodging that for an extended period of time. Ur right, u can't dissipate microscopic blades. I threw that in there to show his all around versatility of his science. Its one thing to know (mayuri) and then know and apply to multiple areas (kisuke)
he's laughing only because that's his personality. byakuya is uptight. Byakuya could have laughed at renji, and zomari but he didn't. laughing would look really dumb out of Byakuya. i think i'd be scared if that happened.
Thats also my point. Byakuya is serious more often. Its just like a mentality for sports. If someone is in the playoffs they are gonna pull out all the stops (Nii-sama) but in the preseason all in fun and games and trick plays (Kisuke). But once its time to get serious u see a whole different side of the player if its in them...

SenpaiRetsu

02-21-2008, 07:00 AM

Let me rephrase, he is fast enough to defend and defeat someone of Yoruicihis speed class, no?
your missing the point. when did we see him have an inflatable gigai before Yammi? Never. So, basically inflatable gigais are only the tip of the iceberg. He's been in the Human world for almost a hundred years, who knows what he has hidden in his shop. A genius like him would never pull out his best inventions for Yammi but if he was fighting someone of Byakuyas caliber how could pull out the A-Class invention box.
And don't forget the speed necessary to inflate the gigai, switch it into ur spot and not be seen.
Ur right, u can't dissipate microscopic blades. I threw that in there to show his all around versatility of his science. Its one thing to know (mayuri) and then know and apply to multiple areas (kisuke)
Thats also my point. Byakuya is serious more often. Its just like a mentality for sports. If someone is in the playoffs they are gonna pull out all the stops (Nii-sama) but in the preseason all in fun and games and trick plays (Kisuke). But once its time to get serious u see a whole different side of the player if its in them...

I'll agree with that, i believe Urahara has the speed to keep defend and defeat someone of Youroichi's speed.

You make some valid points about the gigai probably being the tip of the iceberg. so are you saying he is like Mayuri or Szayel? That he's only dangerous if he has time to prepare?

Let me change the scenario then Byakuya and Kisuke have to fight and he doesn't have time to run to his shop to grab any of his gadgets then who wins.

Most most convincing argument i can think of in support of Kisuke is Benihime shikai>>>>> Senbonzakura shikai so probably Benihime Bankai >>>> SKY

B-Eazy

02-21-2008, 07:29 AM

i think kisuke is better at improvising with science then mayuri or syazel. so even if he has no time to prepare he can use his reaitsu, benehime, and analysis during the fight and make adjustments to weaken his opponents advantages/strong points. i also think he keeps a fail-safe invention (like mayuris liquidation) with him at all times in case something was to go awry, no idea what it would be though.

but if someone were to catch mayuri or syazel off guard they'd be in trouble because their science starts in the lab. from what we've seen so far at least.

Icestorm

02-21-2008, 07:56 AM

I would have to say that at the moment my vote would go to Urahara.

The reasons have already been stated.. the main one being seniority. Each has their own ways of battling that are powerful and would work well in different ways. At this point I dont think a clean victor can be given to either.

But seniority points the favour (just) going to Urahara. And that unshakable feeling that he is very powerful.. Im sure that its not only me that gets that feeling that should he get serious and go bankai he would be a force to be rekoned with.

Seff vi Britannia

02-21-2008, 08:42 AM

Are you saying Byakuya's reiatsu is weak? :eek13:
Save for Aizen, can you show me one character whose reiatsu is so much stronger than Byakuya's so that your "theory" would actually make sense? Thanx.

Sure.
Let's think;
Ukitake
Shunsui
Yamma
All espada from 6 down
Shirosaki
Vastrodes, i would imagine
Vaizards
Released Ishida
Current Zaraki

And while i'm surprised Dec didn't consider that post spam and delete it, yeah, he's right. It's an analogy. The point at it's simplest is that a weak attack will inflict minimal damage.

There's also another factor about seniority - it indicates mastery over sword.

The longer one has been a captain for, the longer they've had their ban-kai for. This means they will be more versed in it's use, etc. ^_^

Icestorm

02-21-2008, 08:47 AM

I suppose that its true that If Urahara gained Bankai in 3 days.. He would have more time to master it. Thats quite a factor i'd have to say. He doesnt have to go through the process of learning it (which takes ages) then mastering it (which also takes ages) he can get straight to mastering it.

After mastering a bankai I asume its only right for a scientist to put it to the test and find out its weaknesses.. Analysing it to the maximum and finding out how to fix those weaknesses..

This seems to further expand the seniority factor for me. But what I assume may not be the truth.. but to me it seems like Urahara's style.. he probably has devices that fill the holes in his bankai I'd think.

B-Eazy

02-21-2008, 08:51 AM

^If he didn't already build them into his bankai already.

Seff vi Britannia

02-21-2008, 08:55 AM

Also th fact that Byakuya's had his for a little over 50, whereas Uruhara has had his for at least double that. : P

Undying

02-21-2008, 08:59 AM

I agree. I was never saying that URAHARA'S reiatsu was that big. I made one post on the theory of reiatsu blocking a weak foe's attack, which seemed to escalate, and people seemed to think I was saying Urahara had that reiatsu. People need to read the earlier posts first.
I was expecting intelligence from you Dec, GG!
No one has the speed to easily beat SKY (except Ichigo), no one has the ability (so far) shown to defend against it effectively.

WhenEVER have I hinted that Byakuya would have to HURT the target? I said that his attack will HIT, not that it will CAUSE DAMAGE.

Lrn2reed.

Ukitake
Shunsu
Who are not noted for exceptionally high defense, GG!
Yamma
Possible, I covered it.
All espada from 6 down
Except Zaraki is kinda cutting #5, who has the strongest defense, and Zaraki's clash with Ichigo AT MAXIMUM UPTRA POWAAA caused a crater that is equal to about 5 times a single attack from SKY.

All of Zaraki's power clashing against Ichigo is about 1 SKY attack*5. When Byakuya is holding back.

Shirosaki
Who is not noted for high defense, GG!
Vastrodes, i would imagine
AKA all Espada from 6 down. Currently #5 is being humiliated by Zaraki, who needed to clash with Ichigo at full power to create a single crater.
Vaizards
Who are not noted for high defense! GG!
Released Ishida
Who is not noted for high defense!
Current Zaraki
Current Zaraki hasn't undergone any power-ups, he cannot, because, lo and behold the dreaded truth, he's at maximum power.

So my point HOLDS. THERE IS not one character (with the possible exceptions of Yama and Aizen), capable of defending against it effectively.

Oh and whole I'm at it, I should point out that you people fail at reading on epic levels.

No one has the speed to easily beat SKY (except Ichigo), no one has the ability (so far) shown to defend against it effectively.

WhenEVER did I HINT that SKY has to HURT the target?

Oh yeah, that's right, NEVER. I said it will HIT, not that it will CAUSE DAMAGE.

Lrn2reed, kthxbai.

diamondedge

02-21-2008, 10:13 AM

Ukitake
Shunsui
Yamma
All espada from 6 down
Shirosaki
Vastrodes, i would imagine
Vaizards
Released Ishida
Current Zaraki
Bullshit. :)

You have NO proof whatsoever that seniors are better than juniors in EVERY aspect, namely, reiatsu. Reiatsu is not something you can train, it's something you just HAVE, meaning, how long someone has been a captain doesn't matter sh!t here.

Example: Espada rating.

We have no even seen VL yet, so you can't make assumptions?
Ishida?? Give me a break, he can only manipulate reiatsu he does not poses great amounts of it.

And current Zaraki? Please. The comparison has been made between them - Bykauya's reiatsu is on par or stronger than Zaraki, noted while Byakuya was walking on the bridge. GG.

Only one we can know for sure is Yama, Shirosaki and most likely Vaizards, for others you are making useless assumptions with no evidence whatsoever.

Seff vi Britannia

02-21-2008, 04:12 PM

Orly.

Released Grimmjow has Reaitsu on par with vaizard Ichigo - who has more than Byakuya. Nnoitra is debateable cause he's a pussy, but Ulquiorra most definately has more than Byakuya.

Shunsui and Ukitake can withstand Yama's reiatsu. (hence, they have have Reaitsu of their own.)

Released Ishida blew apart a bankai in one shot. (Power is relative to Reaitsu. Also, Mayuri; "What is this reaitsu!?"

Vastrodes are said to be capable of fighting with captain level shinigami - the amount they've been hyped up, expect them to be strong.

And note i said Current Zaraki, not SS Zaraki. Look at the way his reiatsu was visibly shown. That's a lot of mfking Reaitsu.

And what are you saying, that *hypothetical situation*

If Reiatsu is "just something you have", then Byakuya as a little one year old baby had more reiatsu than, say, eurgh... Chad as he is now?

It's quite obvious the level of your reiatsu develops, or anyone who had the potential to be seated would be walking around giving off vast amounts of reiatsu as a baby.

diamondedge

02-21-2008, 04:24 PM

Released Grimmjow has Reaitsu on par with vaizard Ichigo - who has more than Byakuya.
Manga scan please.

Shunsui and Ukitake can withstand Yama's reiatsu. (hence, they have have Reaitsu of their own.)
They can withstand it COMBINED, not individually.

Released Ishida blew apart a bankai in one shot. (Power is relative to Reaitsu. Also, Mayuri; "What is this reaitsu!?"
LOL, Ishida did this with reiatsu manipulation and with a shot he could only preform ONCE. That has no relevance to his own spiritual pressure. Released Ishida that one shot Mayuri wasn't even using his own reiatsu.

Vastrodes are said to be capable of fighting with captain level shinigami - the amount they've been hyped up, expect them to be strong.
Espadas were also hyped to be strong - they're trash, so until we have something solid, your point is invalid.

And note i said Current Zaraki, not SS Zaraki. Look at the way his reiatsu was visibly shown. That's a lot of mfking Reaitsu.
Manga scan that shows that current Zaraki's reiatsu level is higher than the one in SS?

He couldn't control his reiatsu in SS, he stated himself he can't control it now, so please show me the difference?

If Reiatsu is "just something you have", then Byakuya as a little one year old baby had more reiatsu than, say, eurgh... Chad as he is now?
Reiatsu unleashes through ABILITIES, not in itself. Reiatsu level itself does not increase unless there is ability who uses it.
Like GT for example.

If you don't have exceptional spiritual pressure (which ironically enough, CAN be decided in youth) you can't become a shinigami and unleash it through your abilities.

Seff vi Britannia

02-21-2008, 04:45 PM

Manga scan please.

Read the battle. They fight on par.

They can withstand it COMBINED, not individually.

Lol they have some kind of bond that lets them share reiatsu.

LOL, Ishida did this with reiatsu manipulation and with a shot he could only preform ONCE. That has no relevance to his own spiritual pressure. Released Ishida that one shot Mayuri wasn't even using his own reiatsu.

Dosen't matter. You wanted examples of people with enough Reiatsu - their own or not.

Espadas were also hyped to be strong - they're trash, so until we have something solid, your point is invalid.

Then i'll wait. :P

Manga scan that shows that current Zaraki's reiatsu level is higher than the one in SS?

He couldn't control his reiatsu in SS, he stated himself he can't control it now, so please show me the difference?

As i said, it's the way Kubo drew his reiatsu.

Reiatsu unleashes through ABILITIES, not in itself. Reiatsu level itself does not increase unless there is ability who uses it.
Like GT for example.

Zaraki. Abilities? Whut abilities? Kendo? Lulz.

If you don't have exceptional spiritual pressure (which ironically enough, CAN be decided in youth) you can't become a shinigami and unleash it through your abilities.

Point still stands. In one form or another, "Reiatsu" increases.

Think about it this way -Captains have to surpress their reiatsu to stop it affecting those around them. If Byakuya had as much as a child as he does now, his parents would have been pwnt by his reiatsu. Lol.

Actually, Ichigo is a better example. Can't control his reiatsu - but it's definately increased throughotu the series.

diamondedge

02-21-2008, 04:52 PM

Read the battle. They fight on par.
I thought we were debating reiatsu levels here?

Lol they have some kind of bond that lets them share reiatsu.
:whatevah: Come on. You used to be more convincing.

Dosen't matter. You wanted examples of people with enough Reiatsu - their own or not.
Yeah, it does matter. Because random one shot power up doesn't count as consistent power, and therefore can't be considered as valid evidence, as his ability is only plausible in SPECIAL circumstances, and convenient environment is not part of someone's power, and never was.

Think about it this way -Captains have to surpress their reiatsu to stop it affecting those around them. If Byakuya had as much as a child as he does now, his parents would have been pwnt by his reiatsu. Lol.
I never questioned that - my only point that reiatsu is like a potential - you only have it or you don't. As potential increases overall preformance and strength is better, but your potential isn't any greater just because you can do something with it now.

Guy

02-22-2008, 12:02 AM

Again, the literal nature of analogies shouldn't be taken.
The point is: a massive metal ram against a metal door.
Or a feather against a metal door.

What does a feather against a metal door have anything to do with what we were saying? Seff said one thousand feathers at the speed of sound won't hurt him, and I say that's bullshit because friction would kill him.

Most most convincing argument i can think of in support of Kisuke is Benihime shikai>>>>> Senbonzakura shikai so probably Benihime Bankai >>>> SKY

It's possible, but we really haven't see enough of Urahara's skills to determine. I realized I haven't said this before, but I think Urahara will win through an actual battle (and not wtfpwn Byakuya).

From what we've seen: Urahara's shikai toyed with Yami, the WEAKEST espada. Byakuya's unreleased sword>>>>>>>7th espada who tried to kill Byakuya using a low and dirty trick.

Honestly, Byakuya's UNRELEASED sword showed more power than his shikai, and probably even more than his bankai (his bankai is more like a distraction than true power anyways). And let's not forget that Byakuya's kidou is powerful enough to knock back weak bankais. While I do not doubt Urahara's kidou skills, I doubt Urahara's kidou skills are much more powerful than Byakuya's. It should make an interesting fight.

Dexter

02-22-2008, 01:20 AM

What does a feather against a metal door have anything to do with what we were saying? Seff said one thousand feathers at the speed of sound won't hurt him, and I say that's bullshit because friction would kill him.
It's got everything to do with it. I already explained it.

The metal door is the defending reiatsu. The feathers are senbonzakura. This was in response to Undying's "an omni-directional attack will devour everyone no matter what".

Therefore, it's false. Because if the reiatsu is strong enough, senbon cannot penetrate it. Just like a sword cannot break through reiatsu (think Shikai Ichigo vs Zaraki).

Having to explain something repeatedly has resulted in this going so far off into a tangent it's hardly part of the topic.

and I say that's bullshit because friction would kill him.
Now THIS is what I meant when I said taking it literally has nothing to do with the analogy. This is about greater reiatsu, which is why I used the metal door as a better example.

Obviously peoble here aren't familiar with the structure and principles of proper analogies so I'll refrain from using them as much as possible in the future

Guy

02-22-2008, 03:55 AM

It's got everything to do with it. I already explained it.
The metal door is the defending reiatsu. The feathers are senbonzakura. This was in response to Undying's "an omni-directional attack will devour everyone no matter what".
Therefore, it's false. Because if the reiatsu is strong enough, senbon cannot penetrate it. Just like a sword cannot break through reiatsu (think Shikai Ichigo vs Zaraki).
Having to explain something repeatedly has resulted in this going so far off into a tangent it's hardly part of the topic.

The force and friction that SKY has due to its speed should be able to crush through most reiatsu.... unless you're talking about Aizen's or Yama's. Urahara has not shown us that he has incredible reiatsu that can rival Aizen's or Yama's or such.

Now THIS is what I meant when I said taking it literally has nothing to do with the analogy. This is about greater reiatsu, which is why I used the metal door as a better example.
Obviously peoble here aren't familiar with the structure and principles of proper analogies so I'll refrain from using them as much as possible in the future

My bad, I was more or less directing at Seff's confusing analogy, and not as much at your better one.

diamondedge

02-22-2008, 04:55 AM

Therefore, it's false. Because if the reiatsu is strong enough, senbon cannot penetrate it. Just like a sword cannot break through reiatsu (think Shikai Ichigo vs Zaraki).

What exactly do you not understand??

Why are you making such theories, if the only one using Senbonzakura is Byakuya, and his reiatsu is FAR from weak? Nobody has 2X his reiatsu to make Senbonzakura useless, save from Aizen and Yama, so your theories already fail in theory.

And what a stupid comparison. Senbonzakura is a continuous attack, Ichigo and Zaraki were both relying on slashing power. Senbonzakura doesn't attack ONCE. It attacks MANY times, therefore any comparisons of Senbonzakura and regular attack power of regular sword means sh!t.

If I pour you with bucket of water, you may be fine but if I hold your head into it no matter how tough you are, you will suffocate and die.

Seff vi Britannia

02-22-2008, 06:28 AM

diamondedge

02-22-2008, 06:40 AM

Nobody dies in Bleach. Then Aizen is a weakling for failing to kill Hitsugaya from point blank range stab.

And so much for SKY not being worth shit:
About Ganju - are you saying that just because I'm not a bodybuilder I can't tell how heavy weigh I'm trying to lift is? FAIL. :) (Besides, Byakuya's reiatsu seems to impressed him more, as he noted, when Byakuya wasn't even trying).
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1403/jojo001ub1.png
It seems feathers can easily take down a building.

B-Eazy

02-22-2008, 06:52 AM

You guys are massivley overrating senbonsakura. It is a WEAK attack. It has two things going for it, speed, and numbers, hence my original feather analogy. It is composed of millions of tiny blades that can each produce a scratch, so when you have a million, you have a million scratches. You try scratching a steel door a million times and see if it breaks.

And Byakuya has never been shown to have even a mildly impressive reiatsu, except to Ganju, who is weaksauce.

And no, we haven't seen Urahara's max reiatsu, because he's never had to try - due to his strength.
LOL, i seriously lol on that.

i would not say Senbonsakura is weak, thats a stretch. The tiny blade is more like a small caliper bullet that he can mentally control. A million tiny bullets don't make scratches. Either way i doubt Kisuke is losing because he is more than he's letting on to be. that doesn't mean Byakuya is weak

Seff vi Britannia

02-22-2008, 07:02 AM

Sendivoge

02-22-2008, 07:38 AM

Let's take your bodybuilding example.

I lift 9.2 KG Weights for reps.

Now, 14 KG is my absolute limit. Beyond that, i can't lift them. Now if i got an 18 KG and a 50 KG in front of me, both would be well out of my lifting range, but i wouldn't be able to tell which is the 50 and which is the 18 (except by which ones looks bigger - pretend im doing it blindfolded)

So Byakuya's reiatsu was beyond Ganju, but because Ganju has no reiatsu anyway, it's not a great feat.

And lol @ The building.

Yeah, Zaraki did that one handed, and with a sword. And bankai is supposed to be "an ultimate" technique. That's awesome, that Patched, One handed, not trying, no shikai Zaraki > Senbonsakura Kageyoshi.

Weak.
I don't mean to argue with such small points, but patched? If you're referring to when he sliced the building in half, that was upon taking off his eyepatch. If you're instead referring to the beginning of the fight where cracks form in a wall (on ichigo's side) shortly before Zaraki comes smashing through it... well, i don't know.

diamondedge

02-22-2008, 07:38 AM

Yeah, Zaraki did that one handed, and with a sword. And bankai is supposed to be "an ultimate" technique. That's awesome, that Patched, One handed, not trying, no shikai Zaraki > Senbonsakura Kageyoshi.

Weak.Typical mistake.
Zaraki did not destroy the building, he slashed it so top separated from the bottom so the building fell down. SKY crushed it from every angle, so if you try to compare these two destructive powers and say that AoE < Sword Slash then I have no words for you. :)

As for the last part, come back when you start being serious again.

smach

02-22-2008, 08:11 AM

What exactly do you not understand??

Why are you making such theories, if the only one using Senbonzakura is Byakuya, and his reiatsu is FAR from weak? Nobody has 2X his reiatsu to make Senbonzakura useless, save from Aizen and Yama, so your theories already fail in theory.

And what a stupid comparison. Senbonzakura is a continuous attack, Ichigo and Zaraki were both relying on slashing power. Senbonzakura doesn't attack ONCE. It attacks MANY times, therefore any comparisons of Senbonzakura and regular attack power of regular sword means sh!t.

If I pour you with bucket of water, you may be fine but if I hold your head into it no matter how tough you are, you will suffocate and die.two things:
1) aside from aizen n yama, there's also espadas 6 n above.
2) a more understandable example would be a water hose aimed right at someone's face (kinda like interrogation/torture)...better yet, high-pressure hoses like those on fire trucks.

as for the battle, i'd go for urahara. the advantage of mystery (trump cards) is waay on his side, so i wouldn't be surprised if he already has something for countering an omni directional attack like SKY (assuming his bankai/shikai won't be enough). even goukei, with all its might, will prolly fall victim for one of his schemes. speed, i bet he has it too...hell, he's close to yoruichi; he's gotta be able to keep up somehow?! n he also did save everyone from yami's cero.

B-Eazy

02-22-2008, 08:14 AM

yea. They used to play tag and train together... he has to have some speed

Dexter

02-22-2008, 09:01 AM

Why are you making such theories, if the only one using Senbonzakura is Byakuya, and his reiatsu is FAR from weak?
I already explained it. It wasn't about Urahara vs Byakuya. I mean someone like Yamamoto.

It was one post, which seems to have been taken to mean it WAS about Urahara.

Nobody has 2X his reiatsu to make Senbonzakura useless, save from Aizen and Yama, so your theories already fail in theory.
Read above? Or another of my earlier posts without launching random attacks.

And what a stupid comparison. Senbonzakura is a continuous attack, Ichigo and Zaraki were both relying on slashing power. Senbonzakura doesn't attack ONCE. It attacks MANY times, therefore any comparisons of Senbonzakura and regular attack power of regular sword means sh!t.
It's the same thing. If a weaker attack cannot penetrate once (say an actual petal - not the blade) it won't penetrate no matter how many times its been struck.

If shikai Ichigo had attacked from all angles continously again and again at impossible speed against Zaraki at that time - he would have done NOTHING.

If you can't understand that, don't call my examples stupid. It doesn't look good when you're proved wrong.

If I pour you with bucket of water, you may be fine but if I hold your head into it no matter how tough you are, you will suffocate and die.
An actual petal against something like a metal door is an actual analogy that would describe what I mean.

Weaker reiatsu vs stronger reiatsu.

You do realise this isn't about Byakuya vs Urahara? It's not a theory for Urahara to win. I've said it so many times already. It was one post that adequetely compared the difference for Undying's post. Obviously he's fine with it, because we agreed. Yet posts are being made against it for no reason.

edit: On a side note. If you're going to defend Byakuya's senbonzakura strength for no reason and use it as something against me (his strength WASN'T the issue - i was NEVER saying he was weak, there was no need to get so defensive about his strength) then I may as well point out he couldn't even kill Shikai Ichigo while he was in Bankai.

Seff vi Britannia

02-22-2008, 09:28 AM

Heh, read Dia's post and was about to post what Dec had in the last part of his post.

Alright, sure, he can smash a building to bits. Yet SKY failed to kill Renji. It barely damaged Shikai Ichigo.

What you forget is that the buildings don't have impressive reiatsu. It's quite clear that against anyone with slightly noticeable reiatsu that SKY fails.

SKY = a lot of scratches. Oh yay, grazes.

To put it into WOW terms, SKY is like that falling ice or fire attack or the attack where the hunter shoots lots of arrows.
If we take, say, Getsuga Tenshou on the other hand, it's like Pyroblast. : )

diamondedge

02-22-2008, 09:30 AM

Heh, read Dia's post and was about to post what Dec had in the last part of his post.

Alright, sure, he can smash a building to bits. Yet SKY failed to kill Renji. It barely damaged Shikai Ichigo.

What you forget is that the buildings don't have impressive reiatsu. It's quite clear that against anyone with slightly noticeable reiatsu that SKY fails.

SKY = a lot of scratches. Oh yay, grazes.
NOBODY DIES IN BLEACH.

You seemed to fail to quote that part.

EDIT: In WoW terms, SKY is Rain of Fire. it's AoE and because it worked COMBINED, it deals insane damage.

That in the end result, is MUCH greater than the one of a Heroic Strike.

Seff vi Britannia

02-22-2008, 09:57 AM

Heroic strike = aggro gaining skill, not damage dealing skill.

Try a CB Eviscerate.

And sorry, but NOBODY DIES IN BLEACH is not a valid argument for a hypothetical battle.

diamondedge

02-22-2008, 10:04 AM

It is, because we are talking about battle that is happening in Bleach universe.

because if we discard it,
Aizen can't kill anyone. He tried 3 times, he failed 3 times.
Zaraki's slash doesn't kill.
Yamamoto's shikai can't kill.

So yeah.

SenpaiRetsu

02-22-2008, 10:05 AM

Heroic strike = aggro gaining skill, not damage dealing skill.

Try a CB Eviscerate.

And sorry, but NOBODY DIES IN BLEACH is not a valid argument for a hypothetical battle.

I have to admit it Jehuty is making some valid points about the strength of SKY. it didn't demolish and immobile rejni, and Ichigo got hit with it full blast and got up and smiled.

Saying he's holding back is kind of a weak argument. it's like pulling out a 50 cal. gun and then shooting at someones foot. why would anyone do that? if ur gonna pull out something that should be able to one shot somebody, then why not one shot them? Nobody thus far has been turned to "dust" by SKY yet.

Not saying I like Byakuya any less, because he's smart and works well with his tools. maybe he's just not very strong but he's a damn good fighter. someone doesn't have to be very strong to be a skilled and good fighter.

diamondedge

02-22-2008, 10:08 AM

I have to admit it Jehuty is making some valid points about the strength of SKY. it didn't demolish and immobile rejni, and Ichigo got hit with it full blast and got up and smiled.
Saying he's holding back is kind of a weak argument. it's like pulling out a 50 cal. gun and then shooting at someones foot. why would anyone do that? if ur gonna pull out something that should be able to one shot somebody, then why not one shot them? Nobody thus far has been turned to "dust" by SKY yet.
Is there ANYONE who turned ANYONE into dust yet?

Manga scan and page please otherwise everyone in Bleach is weak.

Urahara's shikai was pawned by unreleased Ulquiorra effortlessly, without a scratch.

To say he was holding back, is weak argument. :rolleye09

And FYI, comparing gunshot to SKY kind of doesn't make sense.
Byakuya. Admittedly. Did. Not. Fight. With. Intent. To. kill.

Are you even saying he needed SKY to kill Renji? No, Renji was immobilized by his kidou, vulnerable to just ANY attack.
It was to demonstrate a POWER gap, no to KILL.

If you knew Byakuya, you knew why he did what he did.

SenpaiRetsu

02-22-2008, 10:15 AM

Is there ANYONE who turned ANYONE into dust yet?

Manga scan and page please otherwise everyone in Bleach is weak.

Urahara's shikai was pawned by unreleased Ulquiorra effortlessly, without a scratch.

To say he was holding back, is weak argument. :rolleye09

And FYI, comparing gunshot to SKY kind of doesn't make sense.
Byakuya. Admittedly. Did. Not. Fight. With. Intent. To. kill.

Are you even saying he needed SKY to kill Renji? No, Renji was immobilized by his kidou, vulnerable to just ANY attack.
It was to demonstrate a POWER gap, no to KILL.

If you knew Byakuya, you knew why he did what he did.

i'm not the one that made the claim about people being reduced to dust, Byakuya did...........:whatevah:

come on now, I know why he did it but it doesn't change anything. SKY clearly is not that strong, it's not like the flamethrower he makes it seem like. if it were that destructive, there would be no way to even temper it down.

just admit that up until this point SKY has failed, but he is still a good fighter.

by the way let me clarify i'm not saying SKY isn't a great attack and bankai. It's just good if it's used the way it should be as continuous and not stopping. but it's initial impact isn't very strong

Sendivoge

02-22-2008, 10:16 AM

diamondedge

02-22-2008, 10:19 AM

i'm not the one that made the claim about people being reduced to dust, Byakuya did...........:whatevah:
Sure, I too took that statement very literally and completely ignored the fact it's a phrase in conversation.

Believe what you want to believe. Sure Byakuya likes using weak stuff. :whatevah:
SKY IS AoE, and AoE in itself does NOT stack with weak attack power. Not overall, and not combined.

SenpaiRetsu

02-22-2008, 10:21 AM

Mayuri's turned a few to dust... or small chunky bits at least. No characters with a background prior to dying though. Just thought i'd mention that :p
Oh, Chp121,p4 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-121-page-4.html) if you're interested.. not likely though :)

Sendivoge>>>>Dia's statement, pwnage

Sure, I too took that statement very literally and completely ignored the fact it's a phrase in conversation.

Believe what you want to believe. Sure Byakuya likes using weak stuff.

if it's so strong upon intial impact how come nobody has instantly died? or at least crippled to the point where they can't move???

h3h3h3

02-22-2008, 10:26 AM

Lol, Sendivoge.

The petals are only for VC lvl. It's as many have proven already it can't pierce a steel door. They are individual they don't do combined dmg. And if they were combined it would be a ball of metal=useless.

Urahara wins with mild difficulty.

diamondedge

02-22-2008, 10:27 AM

Sendivoge>>>>Dia's statement, pwnage
if it's so strong upon intial impact how come nobody has instantly died? or at least crippled to the point where they can't move???
Zomari, after he shielded himself, kthanx. ^^

Seff vi Britannia

02-22-2008, 10:31 AM

Urahara's shikai was pawned by unreleased Ulquiorra effortlessly, without a scratch.

Haha. Oh lord.

So yeah, Ulquiorra did that

Bankai Ichigo > Bankai Byakuya
Vaizard Ichigo > Bankai Ichigo
Full power Vaizard Ichigo > Vaizard Ichigo
Ulquiorra > Full power Vaizard Ichigo.
Ulquiorra is so far above Byakuya it's just not even funny.

So you can say that Ulquiorra pawned Urahara's shikai, but unreleased Ulquiorra would pawn Hakutaiken with just the same ease, so the point is redundant.

SenpaiRetsu

02-22-2008, 10:33 AM

Zomari, after he shielded himself, kthanx. ^^

yea he was really mobile before the attack :whatevah: he never moved the whole fight(after releasing)......

No Byakuya wasn't trying to kill Renji.........

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/143/07/

he was surprised he was still alive meaning he was trying to kill him and failed.... am i saying he needed bankai? absolutely not. it just proves that SKY upon intial impact is not strong.

diamondedge

02-22-2008, 10:40 AM

Haha. Oh lord.

So yeah, Ulquiorra did that

Bankai Ichigo > Bankai Byakuya
Vaizard Ichigo > Bankai Ichigo
Full power Vaizard Ichigo > Vaizard Ichigo
Ulquiorra > Full power Vaizard Ichigo.
Ulquiorra is so far above Byakuya it's just not even funny.

So you can say that Ulquiorra pawned Urahara's shikai, but unreleased Ulquiorra would pawn Hakutaiken with just the same ease, so the point is redundant.
What has that got to do with anything?
We are arguing about SKY's power, not how Ulquiorra would pawn Hakkuteiken.
Stay on topic?

@Niisamapwns: You fail on so many levels it's not even funny:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/143/11/

And that page is in the very same chapter. Your claims prove nothing.

SenpaiRetsu

02-22-2008, 10:46 AM

What has that got to do with anything?
We are arguing about SKY's power, not how Ulquiorra would pawn Hakkuteiken.
Stay on topic?

@Niisamapwns: You fail on so many levels it's not even funny:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/143/11/

And that page is in the very same chapter. Your claims prove nothing.

how doesn't it prove anything? it clearly says that his intention was to kill him with that blow in that instant, he was SURPRISED it didn't. so he couldn't even paralyze somone on renji's level. and like i said pumpkin boy never moved the whole time. SKY only managed to pierce the softest tissue(eyes) but could not pierce his Hierro. Because the effects of SKY the attack is dispersed therefore making it generally weaker than a straight forward attack like GT or even his unreleased sword. Also why the third stage of his bankai is the most powerful because a condensed mass of engergy is stronger than a dispersed one. kthankx GG

B-Eazy

02-22-2008, 10:48 AM

Seff vi Britannia

02-22-2008, 10:52 AM

This is Urahara versus Byakuya.

You used Ulquiorra as a comparison for Urahara's strength, i used him as one for Byakuya's strength. I consider that "On topic"

And why are you do the old Undying tactic of saying people fail? He's got some good points but even if you do have a rebuttal you could be courteous about it. : /

@ Beazy

Actually, Vichigo showed more power against Ulquiorra than he did against Grimmjow (the huge gT wave). All that happened against Grimm was his time limit extended - not his power. By full power i meant that it's the strongest we've seen him. : )

SenpaiRetsu

02-22-2008, 10:53 AM

I think you guys are being overly critical and severely underestimating Byakuya. Saying he overestimated his attack power or underestimated renjis defensive improvements and its a whole other thing to say its weak. SKY is not weak, it may not be as strong as Byakuya thinks but not weak

What defense? he was bound in six rod light prison, he was a sitting duck.

also i agree SKY isn't weak, it's strong when u pour it on. Diamondedge stated it best herself. it's like a bucket of water. if u dump it on someone once, it's not going to do much, but if u submerged them, then it's death. SKY is moderately strong upon initial impact but gets better as time goes on because you can't dodge it indefinitely even if u have the speed to in the beginning. u'd tire very quickly, plus the blades would have a cumalitive effect over time. not a long period of time, but it takes more than one shit to kill anyone VC or higher.

diamondedge

02-22-2008, 10:59 AM

how doesn't it prove anything? it clearly says that his intention was to kill him with that blow in that instant, he was SURPRISED it didn't.
"If you don't stop that neither will I" = "If you won't hold it then neither will I."
Can you read? Can you? Really?

so he couldn't even paralyze somone on renji's level.
Renji was ALREADY sentenced to death the moment Byakuya fired kidou at him.

Byakuya used UNRELEASED blade to finish off Zomari who was ironically - in same position as Renji in 6 Rod prison - at Byakuya's mercy. But NO, Byakuya couldn't even kill Renji, despite he wanted to so BADLY.

Zomari died because Byakuya he WANTED to kill him. He did. With EASE. And Zomari is STRONGER than Renji. And Bykauya killed him.

Also why the third stage of his bankai is the most powerful because a condensed mass of engergy is stronger than a dispersed one. kthankx GG
Manga scan and page that proves this, GG. ^^

And what has that got to do with anything we were discussing right now?
EDIT:Diamondedge stated it best herself. it's like a bucket of water. if u dump it on someone once, it's not going to do much, but if u submerged them, then it's death. SKY is moderately strong upon initial impact but gets better as time goes on because you can't dodge it indefinitely even if u have the speed to in the beginning. u'd tire very quickly, plus the blades would have a cumalitive effect over time. not a long period of time, but it takes more than one shit to kill anyone VC or higher.
They why are we even arguing??

SKY's strength lies in numbers and speed that allow great damage.

If you are thinking about the power alone that SKY hits targets with - of course I'm not going to argue that a SINGLE attack is "I win" button, but SKY is not a weapon to be used once. Because of it's great speed, the effect of constantly being hit multiplies the damage every time massive amounts of SKY hit something.
The faster you deal the damage sooner you achieve the desired effect, and victim's end.

And because SKY is one of the fastest weapons seen in Bleach, that soon comes quite fast.

Strength = overall capacity, not the impact power, so if we got these two things mixed up no wonder we can't seem to agree.

For me SKY strength = ability to inflict little damage constantly and very fast which makes it a LOT of damage really fast, not the crushing power itself. That is what Zaraki is doing.

EDIT 2:
@Seff: LOL I didn't use it as a comparison, it was merely to state that "holding back" (because in all honesty, I doubt Kisuke gave it his best he had) IS a valid argument, as it counts as part of personality someone fights with.

smach

02-22-2008, 11:00 AM

guyz, we know SKY isn't gonna work on someone like grimjow and above...so what' the point of even arguing about this anymore?

Urahara's shikai was pawned by unreleased Ulquiorra effortlessly, without a scratch.

To say he was holding back, is weak argument. :rolleye09all urahara has ever done to yami is cancel out all his cero variations (ch194p12 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/194/12/); ch235p08 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/235/08/))

And FYI, comparing gunshot to SKY kind of doesn't make sense.
Byakuya. Admittedly. Did. Not. Fight. With. Intent. To. kill.proof...?

Are you even saying he needed SKY to kill Renji? No, Renji was immobilized by his kidou, vulnerable to just ANY attack.
It was to demonstrate a POWER gap, no to KILL.

If you knew Byakuya, you knew why he did what he did.ch143p06-07: (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/143/07/) be proud, as someone who, after being struck with this power, is still able to retain the form of his body.
...oh? you are still alive...

Zomari, after he shielded himself, kthanx. ^^does this even count as a comeback..?

EDIT:
"If you don't stop that neither will I" = "If you won't hold it then neither will I."
Can you read? Can you? Really?the bankai was MEANT TO KILL. end of story.

Seff vi Britannia

02-22-2008, 11:01 AM

Final scene is implied to be strongest.

B-Eazy

02-22-2008, 11:02 AM

I disagree that was full power

his mask broke after like 11 sec. GT was only that big cuz he was pissed

Seff vi Britannia

02-22-2008, 11:13 AM

Exactly. All that he got in the Grimm fight was extra time. He showed the strongest attack we've seen from him in the Ulquiorra fight. And by "full power" i meant the strongest Ichigo's been. Sorry :P The point is, Ulquiorra easily decimiated him.

diamondedge

02-22-2008, 11:15 AM

guyz, we know SKY isn't gonna work on someone like grimjow and above...so what' the point of even arguing about this anymore?
:whatevah:

I'm not gonna comment, but I'll let manga to answer that for you when the time comes. But why would I, zaraki is perfect example of that. Just holding a sword with two hands can easily out damage 5th Espada. Byakuya didn't even use his strongest attack on 7th. So yeah.

proof...?
Above post.

And no, it wasn't. It was meant to demonstrate the POWER gap between them.

He didn't even use the SKY multiple times to kill Renji, even though it takes like, a moment to do it. And above post also. ^^

smach

02-22-2008, 11:16 AM

Manga scan and page that proves this, GG. ^^

And what has that got to do with anything we were discussing right now?end of ch166 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/19/); begining of ch177 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/167/01/)
i believe the issue is the belief that sky is the ultimate move or more effective...or to disprove something...IDK.

SKY's strength lies in numbers and speed that allow great damage.

If you are thinking about the power alone that SKY hits targets with - of course I'm not going to argue that a SINGLE attack is "I win" button, but SKY is not a weapon to be used once. Because of it's great speed, the effect of constantly being hit multiplies the damage every time massive amounts of SKY hit something.
The faster you deal the damage sooner you achieve the desired effect, and victim's end.

And because SKY is one of the fastest weapons seen in Bleach, that soon comes quite fast.

Strength = overall capacity, not the impact power, so if we got these two things mixed up no wonder we can't seem to agree.serously...u all need to quit this shit coz i get the feeling you're never gonna agree with each other 100%. so how about we leave this sky crap alone n move to something else?

diamondedge

02-22-2008, 11:18 AM

end of ch166 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/19/); begining of ch177 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/167/01/)
i believe the issue is the belief that sky is the ultimate move or more effective...or to disprove something...IDK.
Still proves nothing. It fit the situation because they couldn't fight anymore, but that doesn't show it's his strongest attack. Strongest in a direct clash - yeah, but overall strongest? Dunno really.

Seff vi Britannia

02-22-2008, 11:20 AM

:whatevah:

I'm not gonna comment, but I'll let manga to answer that for you when the time comes. But why would I, zaraki is perfect example of that. Just holding a sword with two hands can easily out damage 5th Espada. Byakuya didn't even use his strongest attack on 7th. So yeah.

Just remember that while there is a faction that believes Byakuya > Zaraki, there is also a fair number of people who believe the exact opposite. : )

smach

02-22-2008, 11:20 AM

@dia: honestly i don't even have much of a clue what the hell the issue is around here. could u help me out? all i know is it involves SKY...but i can't rlly share my opinion when the discussion is not clear.

diamondedge

02-22-2008, 11:25 AM

@Seff: We will see each other in the thread then. You know me, don't you? :)
@smarch: No idea, it has nothing to do with the topic but I just go with the flow. I have nothing else to do right now. :p

Sendivoge

02-22-2008, 11:29 AM

Apparently compressing the sword fragments into one sword increases it's killing ability. But i can only imagine this would be the case if the opponent can withstand the millions of tiny blades, which would otherwise make for a quick and easy kill.

smach

02-22-2008, 12:08 PM

for someone like urahara, i doubt countering or dodging the blades is rlly a question.

SenpaiRetsu

02-22-2008, 12:33 PM

"If you don't stop that neither will I" = "If you won't hold it then neither will I."
Can you read? Can you? Really?

Renji was ALREADY sentenced to death the moment Byakuya fired kidou at him.

Byakuya used UNRELEASED blade to finish off Zomari who was ironically - in same position as Renji in 6 Rod prison - at Byakuya's mercy. But NO, Byakuya couldn't even kill Renji, despite he wanted to so BADLY.

Zomari died because Byakuya he WANTED to kill him. He did. With EASE. And Zomari is STRONGER than Renji. And Bykauya killed him.

Manga scan and page that proves this, GG. ^^

And what has that got to do with anything we were discussing right now?
EDIT:
They why are we even arguing??

SKY's strength lies in numbers and speed that allow great damage.

If you are thinking about the power alone that SKY hits targets with - of course I'm not going to argue that a SINGLE attack is "I win" button, but SKY is not a weapon to be used once. Because of it's great speed, the effect of constantly being hit multiplies the damage every time massive amounts of SKY hit something.
The faster you deal the damage sooner you achieve the desired effect, and victim's end.

And because SKY is one of the fastest weapons seen in Bleach, that soon comes quite fast.

Strength = overall capacity, not the impact power, so if we got these two things mixed up no wonder we can't seem to agree.

For me SKY strength = ability to inflict little damage constantly and very fast which makes it a LOT of damage really fast, not the crushing power itself. That is what Zaraki is doing.

EDIT 2:
@Seff: LOL I didn't use it as a comparison, it was merely to state that "holding back" (because in all honesty, I doubt Kisuke gave it his best he had) IS a valid argument, as it counts as part of personality someone fights with.

yea this is basically what i'm saying. let's keep in mind when i say time, i'm not talking about minutes, it's more along the lines of seconds, i'd imagine even 60 seconds under SKY continuous would probably almost anyone if not severely injure them, and a whole continous 2 minutes would probably deform a body into something unrecognizable.

That was the only thing i was arguing that the initial impact will no KO anybody VC level or higher. but for some reason that's how Byakuya has used it. Of course Kubo wants to show us all of his abilities, which i have the feeling we've barely scratched the surface, however were i to use SKY i'd never let up on it unless it was shown to be completely ineffective which has not been the case.

diamondedge

02-22-2008, 01:53 PM

Yes yes, that makes things much more clear now.

It was just very frustrating because I thought you wanted to say that machine gun is a weak weapon because a single bullet didn't butcher the target. :)

smach

02-22-2008, 08:44 PM

I'm not gonna comment, but I'll let manga to answer that for you when the time comes. But why would I, zaraki is perfect example of that. Just holding a sword with two hands can easily out damage 5th Espada. Byakuya didn't even use his strongest attack on 7th. So yeah.like u said earlier, zaraki's just a one trick wonder...seems he may not even need shikai to exterminate the fifth. byakuya used sky n it didn't kill, even though he used a true omni directional attack that obliterated the building. zaraki's reiatsu alone allows him to do such things as slice a building in two, or even a boulder thrown at him by noitora. it's HIS strength, not byakuya's...unless hakuteiken proves to be capable of the same. i think we could also agree that the old ichigo that couldn't even cut zaraki would still inflict injury to byakuya by the swing of his sword.

if u still believe byakuya = zaraki in terms of brute strength then prove to me that he can disperse a cero with one hand...
vizard ichigo >= ultimate cero >>> normal cero > bankai KGT > byakuya

SenpaiRetsu

02-22-2008, 11:03 PM

like u said earlier, zaraki's just a one trick wonder...seems he may not even need shikai to exterminate the fifth. byakuya used sky n it didn't kill, even though he used a true omni directional attack that obliterated the building. zaraki's reiatsu alone allows him to do such things as slice a building in two, or even a boulder thrown at him by noitora. it's HIS strength, not byakuya's...unless hakuteiken proves to be capable of the same. i think we could also agree that the old ichigo that couldn't even cut zaraki would still inflict injury to byakuya by the swing of his sword.

if u still believe byakuya = zaraki in terms of brute strength then prove to me that he can disperse a cero with one hand...
vizard ichigo >= ultimate cero >>> normal cero > bankai KGT > byakuya

Seems like it was made pretty clear that Zaraki's riatsu and brute strength>>>>Byakuya's. i agree with u. i don't think Byakuya is stopping a cero with his hand and smiling. Do i think he'd counter a cero? most definitely, but i don't think he's doing it bare handed.

diamondedge

02-23-2008, 08:08 AM

Seff vi Britannia

02-23-2008, 09:53 AM

I never argued that they are equal in terms of physical strength.

Byakuya doesn't have to get hit fact, he doesn't get hit, because he can DODGE. Zaraki can take damage, since that's all he has been doing this fight and that makes him a tank but that doesn't make him any more skilled as a fighter.

And the moment you bring Ichigo in the equation you loose the debate. :) Byakuya took a direct hit from Shirosaki, and was still able to fight. I told you, LEAVE Ichigo out of this.

Byakuya took a direct hit from Ichigo, too. Scrap Shiroshaki. - ,-

And if NO COMPARISONS TO ICHIGO are allowed whatsoever, then-

SKY is slow as shit, because it could keep up with BANKAI ICHIGO - oh wait, no Ichigo comparisons!

smach

02-23-2008, 10:42 AM

lol SKY would prolly not even be a speed threat to the top espada, let alone count as a harmful attack. thousands of tiny blades tryin to do what vizard ichigo barely accomplished...yea, good luck.

Seems like it was made pretty clear that Zaraki's riatsu and brute strength>>>>Byakuya's. i agree with u. i don't think Byakuya is stopping a cero with his hand and smiling. Do i think he'd counter a cero? most definitely, but i don't think he's doing it bare handed.yea...i couldn't rlly find the point i was trying to prove...the issue was sebonzakura's effectiveness (strength), and my point was that i don't think it would be able to stop or cancel out a cero...maybe it can divert it, but that's all. my thing with strength is that even if byakuya uses bankai on grim or above, i doubt it will have much of an effect.

I never argued that they are equal in terms of physical strength.yea...i was still tryin to figure out what my issue was...

Byakuya doesn't have to get hit fact, he doesn't get hit, because he can DODGE. Zaraki can take damage, since that's all he has been doing this fight and that makes him a tank but that doesn't make him any more skilled as a fighter.agreed...seriously i had the points for something but i couldn't figure out what that something was that i was trying to prove...:eek13:

And the moment you bring Ichigo in the equation you loose the debate. :) Byakuya took a direct hit from Shirosaki, and was still able to fight. I told you, LEAVE Ichigo out of this.i choose to use him at times like this coz his attack power n past encounters are logical n relevant:
1) ogichi's KGT (vs byakuya) was at best a little stronger than the one that barely scratched grimjow. if you're gonna use shirosaki in a futile attempt to boast about byakuya's greatness then it's not gonna work coz not only do u ignore the fact that ogichi wasn't even being serious (i mentioned it in the other thread...where u disappeared from) but u also seem to forget one small yet major thing: OGICHI IS A PART OF ICHIGO.

2) if bankai KGT couldn't stop grim's cero then i doubt byakuya's bankai can even counter it.

3) we all know that arancar have hiero. we also know that ichigo wasn't a match for grimjow without bankai+vizard powers. unless you can prove to me that sebonzakura can cut through 6th and higher, i don't think there's much to argue about here.

4) give me something that disproves the ranking vizard ichigo >= ultimate cero >>> normal cero > bankai KGT > byakuya

5) NEWSFLASH: "ichigo doesn't count....coz he's the main character, etc" does not count as a reason. :rolleye09

diamondedge

02-23-2008, 11:44 AM

lol SKY would prolly not even be a speed threat to the top espada, let alone count as a harmful attack. thousands of tiny blades tryin to do what vizard ichigo barely accomplished...yea, good luck.
You do not know that. :)
Nnoitora as the 5th Espada was completely immobile during the whole fight, plus you have no proof that the top Espada are better in every aspect of battle from the lower ones. And as I said, if he was able to smash the "fastest" Espada with SKY it I see no reason why he would be easily outmatched in game of speed to anyone.

Grimmjow was fast, Nnoitora is FAR from it, therefore you can not even remotely prove that have all Espada great speed that increased with number they possess, because it's obvious they do not. :)

Also, what you seem to forget is that SKY only hit all of their opponents ONCE. We have said before, it's strength lies in fact it is able to attack several times very fast, and because it is some fecking fast weapon a lot of damage comes real quick, IF he chooses to do it. But if he released that doesn't mean that is him going all out with bankai, because that is just not how Byakuya fights. It's like saying he was using full shikai potential on Ganju, because he chose to release. If he doesn't use his max power and potential on every opponent he crosses path with that doesn't mean he can't step up his game when needed.

In 2 out of 3 encounters, ONE hit is all he needed, and he could have done it a gazillion times over if he wanted, as he did before he started to control it with his hands vs Ichigo. It is very unfair and one sided if you take power of a single hit into consideration, if th attack is based on continuous attacks, and Byakuya won't use it unless it's an absolute must. We have agreed on that before - SKY can only inflict major damage if it attacks continuously. Byakuya is not like zaraki - he won't say "oh you're good and now I'm gonna go all out." He is proud and arrogant, he won't use more power than necessary. Are you going to say he went all out against Zomari, even if
he used SKY? upon release he immediately got upper hand, and killed his enemy with his unreleased blade. After using SKY in a SINGLE attack.

Ichigo was able to Escape the damage for the second time due to his attack speed, which is so far the fastest one we have seen in Bleach. He failed to outrun SKY and had to resort to TZ attack speed, once Byakyua got serious.

And Keep in mind that SKY is faster than Byakuya, and the fastest Espada failed to harm him before the release. :)

i choose to use him at times like this coz his attack power n past encounters are logical n relevant:
1) ogichi's KGT (vs byakuya) was at best a little stronger than the one that barely scratched grimjow. if you're gonna use shirosaki in a futile attempt to boast about byakuya's greatness then it's not gonna work coz not only do u ignore the fact that ogichi wasn't even being serious (i mentioned it in the other thread...where u disappeared from) but u also seem to forget one small yet major thing: OGICHI IS A PART OF ICHIGO.
bankai = 10x shikai, regardless of who was in charge that time, is that logic more suitable for you?
"I will show the right way to use bankai". Prove me how that wasn't serious, and that this Ogichi was the same that barely scratched Grimmjow please.
Ogichi fired KGT, he didn't actually fight or took foll control.

3) we all know that arancar have hiero. we also know that ichigo wasn't a match for grimjow without bankai+vizard powers. unless you can prove to me that sebonzakura can cut through 6th and higher, i don't think there's much to argue about here.
Manga is proof enough. Byakuya pawned 7th with ease, that surely means he has no room for stronger opponents.

Prove to me that Urahara can take more than Yammi then. According to your logic, mayuri is stronger than Urahara because they both pawned their opponents, but mayuri defeated a stronger one. You don't seem to take their reserves into consideration and say just because a character releases means he gave it all he got. Bykauya himself is the proof and he himself can use lower ranked techniques to dispose of those that he couldn't with his stronger ones.
NOT everyone IS ZARAKI, there are captains who can actually control themselves.

4) give me something that disproves the ranking vizard ichigo >= ultimate cero >>> normal cero > bankai KGT > byakuya
...
I just said that Byakuya does NOT have to get hit, because he is FAST enough to DODGE. Why are you putting him in Kenpachi's shoes? Byakuya is not head to head fighter.

5) NEWSFLASH: "ichigo doesn't count....coz he's the main character, etc" does not count as a reason. :rolleye09

No he doesn't, otherwise Zaraki is still as strong as shikai Ichigo. :)

Shikai Ichigo > Zaraki
Bankai = 10X shikai
Bankai Ichigo >= Bankai Byakuya.

Don't give me the maths here, because that not how Bleach works.

I'm not even replying to anything with Ichigo anymore, so if you choose to still go by Ichigo's logic, suit yourself. Latest manga clearly suggests that Ichgo logic fails on so many levels, and I've explained it myself several times why that is so.

It's like saying shikai Ichigo is stronger than Nnoitora.

Seff vi Britannia

02-23-2008, 12:04 PM

Ok, fine, nothing that happens to the main character counts.

Grimmjow is weak - he got owned by Shinji, Nnoitra, and only beat Ulqy with a cheap shot. The only people he owned are Rukia and Menoly and Loly.

Byakuya is weak - he lost two limbs fighting ONLY the 7th espada. His ultimate techniques are crap because he's only used them on Ichigo - therefore we can't say they are actually any good at all. SKY is also not as fast as bankai Ichigo, because, again, we cant compare it to Ichigo.

:cm:

If you hate the main character so much, don't read Bleach.

diamondedge

02-23-2008, 12:08 PM

Sendivoge

02-23-2008, 12:39 PM

bankai = 10x shikai, regardless of who was in charge that time, is that logic more suitable for you?
"I will show the right way to use bankai". Prove me how that wasn't serious, and that this Ogichi was the same that barely scratched Grimmjow please.
Ogichi fired KGT, he didn't actually fight or took foll control.
No he doesn't, otherwise Zaraki is still as strong as shikai Ichigo. :)

Shikai Ichigo > Zaraki
Bankai = 10X shikai
Bankai Ichigo >= Bankai Byakuya.

Don't give me the maths here, because that not how Bleach works.

I think you'll find it's generally 5-10X; a multiplier dependant on:
- The zanpakutou itself
- The weilder's strength and training

This isn't really arguing, so much as clarifying. :)

diamondedge

02-23-2008, 12:43 PM

This isn't really arguing, so much as clarifying. :)
That is what I meant myself, I was simply trying to show that you can't measure someone's strength with maths and bunch of other people involved. Of course that is general rule, but if you compare it to the quality of arguments against my points I don't think it's that wrong. :)

Sendivoge

02-23-2008, 12:47 PM

That is what I meant myself, I was simply trying to show that you can't measure someone's strength with maths and bunch of other people involved. Of course that is general rule, but if you compare it to the quality of arguments against my points I don't think it's that wrong. :)
I woudn't have bothered saying anything, but after using the word "regardless" in the first sentence... i figured i probably should.

Seff vi Britannia

02-23-2008, 12:50 PM

Byakuya lost his limbs WILLINGLY, but it did not affect him in the slightest. What is your point? Byakuya did not start daydreaming "if I get cut any more I'll die, and that would suck." He was still doing everything he did before, with one hand he was using a sword and firing kidou, with one leg he still moved at a speed that is called shunpo. You were saying?

Read my posts, I said Byakuya can ADAPT, therefore he can use his WEAKER techniques to dispose the ones he couldn't with his stronger ones. EXAMPLE: Renji, Zomari, GG. :)

Please come back when you actually have something to say.

EDIT: LOL, I don't hate Ichigo, but if you still fail to see why he is not a reliable source of measuring someone's strength then perhaps it's you who should stop reading. :)

Byakuya lost his limbs on purpose, clearly. It's not like he'd rather have kept them.

If you keep trying to insist that "Ichigo dosen't count" simply to make Byakuya look better, it's just going to come off as ridiculous.

But if you've made up your mind then whatever, not like i can convince you otherwise, lulz. I see no reason why Ichigo can't be used as a comparison.

The captains could have trained. Byakuya and Zaraki, certainly, would have learned something from Ichigo.

Also, there's the fact that Ichigo fighting Zaraki was fuelled by both Shirosaki AND Zangetsu to result in a massive power boost we can't actually acsertain the value of. It wasn't "just shikai ichigo."

It was Shikai Ichigo on steroids holding a nuke.