Nnoitra vs Byakuya [Manga Spoilers]

[Habanero]

any amount of reiatsu, even significantly weaker, can cut anyone, depending on the sharpening.

I think you just actually managed to spit out the fundamental difference in our views with that sentence... Now I know where you're actually coming from on this issue.

The difference in our view is, that I don't think it is possible to sharpen one's reiatsu to no end. And that is where comes the whole toothpick analogy from. If it is possible to sharpen one's reiatsu without any limits, then of course anything can pierce anything. Toothpicks become missiles.

The way I've been thinking is that you have to have a certain amount of reiatsu to wound your opponent in any case, because there's a limit in how far compressing your reiatsu will take you. Of course, no one's ever stated that there's some sort of limit in the compression, but it has been at least implied that someone with low reiatsu can't hurt a significantly stronger opponent.

That's where SKY jumps in:
1.From your point of view, reiatsu can be compressed without limits and damage can be done, no matter what's in the way.
2.From my point of view, you can't compress reiatsu to such extent, that millions of blades could simultaneously have even near the cutting power of one blade where you pour your reiatsu into. Which results in lesser cutting power.

There was a reference about this in your first post actually:
I covered both released and unreleased forms for Nnoitora here, and didn't even consider shikai (which would most like be ineffective, unless it can be sharpened enough, which I'm sure a sword would be much more effective at), and didn't bring in bankai because Nnoitora cannot effectively block it.
Surprisingly, at that point we had kinda similar way of thinking. The petals do not necessarily have enough power to make cuts, and a sword would be more effective. In shikai that is.

Now, while his power obviously jumps greatly when using bankai, also the number of petals multiplies by a ridiculous amount. Does he have enough reiatsu to distribute between each petal? And while the reiatsu in each petal can't be very much, is it possible to compress it enough to do damage?

[Undying]

I think you just actually managed to spit out the fundamental difference in our views with that sentence... Now I know where you're actually coming from on this issue.

The difference in our view is, that I don't think it is possible to sharpen one's reiatsu to no end. And that is where comes the whole toothpick analogy from. If it is possible to sharpen one's reiatsu without any limits, then of course anything can pierce anything. Toothpicks become missiles.

The way I've been thinking is that you have to have a certain amount of reiatsu to wound your opponent in any case, because there's a limit in how far compressing your reiatsu will take you. Of course, no one's ever stated that there's some sort of limit in the compression, but it has been at least implied that someone with low reiatsu can't hurt a significantly stronger opponent.

That's where SKY jumps in:
1.From your point of view, reiatsu can be compressed without limits and damage can be done, no matter what's in the way.
2.From my point of view, you can't compress reiatsu to such extent, that millions of blades could simultaneously have even near the cutting power of one blade where you pour your reiatsu into. Which results in lesser cutting power.

There was a reference about this in your first post actually:
Ah, but here you talk as though you're assuming that Byakuya's reiatsu is low. Hence why I repeatedly asked whether you are saying that Byakuya will use one petal.

Yes, it is very true that one petal may not have enough power to go through Nnoitora's skin. However, here comes the problem in your reasoning: Byakuya isn't using one petal at a time, he is using his reiatsu collectively. Since he can pour in all his reiatsu into an attack, even though not all petals hit the opponent, those that do hit are propelled with enough force to go along with the already sharpened reiatsu (since Byakuya would naturally sharpen his reiatsu to fight someone with clearly a lot of power - even Zaraki, who said he is bad at sensing reiatsu, was clearly impressed with the amount of power Nnoitora possessed, so Byakuya would probably be able to immediately tell the power level hes facing) give him enough attack power to pierce Nnoitora's skin.

That's my argument really, even if not all the petals hit, the collective power of bankai - mass, reiatsu, whatever, I'm uninterested in physics here, this is Bleach - is enough to pierce Nnoitora's skin.

Surprisingly, at that point we had kinda similar way of thinking. The petals do not necessarily have enough power to make cuts, and a sword would be more effective. In shikai that is.

Now, while his power obviously jumps greatly when using bankai, also the number of petals multiplies by a ridiculous amount. Does he have enough reiatsu to distribute between each petal? And while the reiatsu in each petal can't be very much, is it possible to compress it enough to do damage?
See above. Even if it is impossible to compress the power in each separate petal to do damage - in fact I doubt it is possible - collectively, the power is greater, and that's the idea behind Byakuya's bankai. It's using all the power collectively, hence it's split.

See my gun/shotgun analogy. Each gun bullet has less power than a shotgun bullet. Collectively, however, a million gun shots will deal a far greater damage than a single shotgun shot.

[smach]

:facepalm: Exiting Zaraki, not excited Zaraki, while he's patched, he has the same reiatsu. When he's unpatched, his reiatsu goes to maximum. Since he has no control over it, that's how things work.

And it doesn't matter anyway, it was not-really-excited Zaraki that was slashing Nnoitora anyway.just coz he can't seal it don't mean he can't control it (or that it doesn't go up n down). ichigo resurrects with a powerup n can cut zaraki but then zaraki is excited n gets stronger in the process, forcing ichigo back once again. byakuya shows up at the bridge n spooks ganju/hanatarou/rukia n then relaxes, then he does it again when ichigo gets to the bridge. that's why i don't believe that spooking a couple intruders compares to naturally overpowering them at your relaxed state.

Actually, SKY has that much strength. And it's omnidirectional. Also, Zaraki hit four arms out of six and took them away. SKY will hit all of Nnoitora. Same amount of damage all over him.why did zaraki succeed? coz all his power was put into one sword. why won't byakuya succeed? coz not even one petal has the strength to penetrate hierro.

If Ichigo didn't have his speed hax, Byakuya would've shredded him.he did that to his skin the first time...which is alot weaker than grim's n noitora's skin.

And anyway. If you go back and reread what dia and I have been posting, we both are pretty clear that one SKY slash probably won't do as much AoE as a single sword slash by Kenpachi (although that's pretty ****** up, one sword has more AoE than millions of tiny blades? Yeah, logic trap), but Byakuya will be attacking repeatedly, which you seem to have comprehended... eventually...ichigo n zaraki don't have more AoE but their attacks are still stronger than SKY, period. as i said before, setting SKY into "repeat mode" (which we've never seen either) will just piss off noitora n he'll fire a cero at byakuya, forcing him to upgrade.

You forgot that Byakuya also gets a 5-10 power increase, and some of this goes into attack power, since clearly not everything is put into petals and speed.

Since he still gets spiritual power*5, he still gets more power, that's how bankai usually works.byakuya himself said SKY's ability is AoE, which is granted by the large increase in petals. unless you're now claiming he doesn't know each petal gets 5 times stronger...

You are once again forgetting that Byakuya doesn't split his reiatsu into a million petals, that would defeat the purpose of an offensive bankai. Collectively, the petals have far more than his cutting power. Much more than ten times. But it's their numbers and speed that cause his general offensive power increase.since u already agree that the petals don't get stronger, what's up with the "power*5" you keep hailing every couple posts? and there has still been no proof that the petals can cut through 6th or 5th. the only thing they do is inflict major damage on buildings n humans coz they grind through them, which still won't pay off when dealing with characters with strong skin.

Don't confuse cutting power and offensive power. The overall offensive power is all the attack, speed, AoE, etc. Cutting power is simply how much cutting power is made by shooting all those bullets at someone. Only penetration power, if you please.

And that, I'm afraid, is far more than plenty to get through Nnoitora's Ierro.the petals penetrated ichigo millions of times n he was still left standing. how that same attack will manage to kill noitora is what i don't understand.

From what we've been told... by the artist himself...

Byakuya sealed reiatsu => Zaraki sealed reiatsu. If you have trouble wrapping your mind around this simple statement...byakuya pushing out his reiatsu >= zaraki chilling out on the sidelines. i think i got the point of that simple statement.

A couple scratches. Again, you seem to fail to understand that bankai Byakuya has more cutting power than sealed and will cause more damage, not to mention he can repeatedly attack Nnoitora to get afar more satisfying result than Zaraki's scratches.throwing millions of razors at a steel wall won't give them more cutting power coz they'll still hit a dead end when they come to contact with the wall.

There's nothing moot about wtfpwnining someone. That is, of course, when not dealing with antis like you who seem to fail to comprehend basic Bleach facts.dude, just coz i don't carry the false belief that byakuya is the shiznit don't mean i "fail to comprehend basic Bleach facts."

Yep, you've proven you don't know what you're talking about. Dozens of petals? Go reread Bleach, because you have no idea what you are talking about.man, those insults rlly do a good job of making your point more concrete.

Never said that, I was specifically stating reiatsu. Physical strength doesn't even come to equation because it's SKY that will be doing the job.those millions of blades that hit ichigo n left him with millions of scratches? ***** please. zaraki w/o kendo literally killed ichigo in one strike n had his sword inches away from ichigo's spine.

And as I clearly stated it won't take one hit of SKY to kill Nnoitora, if consecutive attacks are beyond you...yup...coz i fail to see how an attack that left countless scratches on ichigo will somehow manage to destroy someone whose skin is much stronger than ichigo's.

Good idea, maybe that will teach you that there aren't dozens of petals in SKY, there are millions, and that Byakuya's reiatsu is equal to Zaraki's when both are sealed, and that consecutive attacks by a bankai with the amount of power it demonstrated are more than capable of beating a regenerating moron.

Have a nice day, Bleach 101 is waiting for you.ayo, what u just described is Byakutard 101...which i got no interest in whatsoever.

"effectively" regenerating? Seriously, you really don't know what you're talking about. Nnoitora's regeneration was nowhere near effective; it took long to regenerate and he couldn't use it more than three times in a row (torso slash, arm, and... dead because he is missing arms).zaraki mutilated noitora by using a strong sword n his brute strength plus kendo to inflict major damage to noitora; he didn't repeatedly use the same technique that left a million scratches on ichigo.

Ah, but here you talk as though you're assuming that Byakuya's reiatsu is low. Hence why I repeatedly asked whether you are saying that Byakuya will use one petal.

Yes, it is very true that one petal may not have enough power to go through Nnoitora's skin. However, here comes the problem in your reasoning: Byakuya isn't using one petal at a time, he is using his reiatsu collectively. Since he can pour in all his reiatsu into an attack, even though not all petals hit the opponent, those that do hit are propelled with enough force to go along with the already sharpened reiatsu (since Byakuya would naturally sharpen his reiatsu to fight someone with clearly a lot of power - even Zaraki, who said he is bad at sensing reiatsu, was clearly impressed with the amount of power Nnoitora possessed, so Byakuya would probably be able to immediately tell the power level hes facing) give him enough attack power to pierce Nnoitora's skin.

That's my argument really, even if not all the petals hit, the collective power of bankai - mass, reiatsu, whatever, I'm uninterested in physics here, this is Bleach - is enough to pierce Nnoitora's skin.my problem is still that there's nothing to indicate that byakuya can/will sharpen the petals to make them penetrate, or that repeated attacks will eventually weaken heirro n make it penetrable. n even if they somehow inflict a couple scratches from having more reiatsu, byakuya would still be faced with the issue of having used most of his power in only one attack. that's why i find the most logical thing for him to do would be to upgrade to hakuteiken so he can inflict major damage in one swing. but there's still the issue of byakuya lacking zaraki's physical strength, which is why i find the most effective method for him to use would be restricting noitora's movements (prolly using an incantation) n concentrating on something rlly effective like cutting his head off.

[Undying]

just coz he can't seal it don't mean he can't control it (or that it doesn't go up n down). ichigo resurrects with a powerup n can cut zaraki but then zaraki is excited n gets stronger in the process, forcing ichigo back once again. byakuya shows up at the bridge n spooks ganju/hanatarou/rukia n then relaxes, then he does it again when ichigo gets to the bridge. that's why i don't believe that spooking a couple intruders compares to naturally overpowering them at your relaxed state.
What? I don't speak Stupid, thanks.

But from what I can gather, you're saying that Zaraki became "excited" and therefore more powerful when Ichigo attacked him. Care to post the scan where Zaraki shows a definite increase in power rather than simply starting to actually fight rather than stand and wait for Ichigo to land a hit that actually hurts.

Sure, Zaraki can control the force of his blows. He cannot control his reiatsu. One doesn't interfere with the other.
why did zaraki succeed? coz all his power was put into one sword. why won't byakuya succeed? coz not even one petal has the strength to penetrate hierro.
Go read my posts again. I'm not going to explain to you what I already explained a hundred times.
he did that to his skin the first time...which is alot weaker than grim's n noitora's skin.
Byakuya attacked him with a linear attack, hence the damage is less because, oh my gawd, less petals hit him. Is that hard to figure out?
ichigo n zaraki don't have more AoE but their attacks are still stronger than SKY, period. as i said before, setting SKY into "repeat mode" (which we've never seen either) will just piss off noitora n he'll fire a cero at byakuya, forcing him to upgrade.
Bull.

Byakuya blocked Ichigo's attacks effortlessly with SKY.

SKY defense > Ichigo bankai offense.

Hence, SKY offense > Zaraki/Ichigo offense.

If you can't figure out why, you need to learn to read, I've explained it already, more than once. If it's still beyond you...
byakuya himself said SKY's ability is AoE, which is granted by the large increase in petals. unless you're now claiming he doesn't know each petal gets 5 times stronger...
When did he state that? He says there are millions of blades.

Also, I didn't state each petal gets a hundred times stronger, read my posts again, I explained it before.
since u already agree that the petals don't get stronger, what's up with the "power*5" you keep hailing every couple posts? and there has still been no proof that the petals can cut through 6th or 5th. the only thing they do is inflict major damage on buildings n humans coz they grind through them, which still won't pay off when dealing with characters with strong skin.
No, really. Learn to read. I said collective power. I explained my statements. If you fail at comprehending simple statements, you really have little to do here.
the petals penetrated ichigo millions of times n he was still left standing. how that same attack will manage to kill noitora is what i don't understand.
The petals didn't penetrate Ichigo millions of times. Byakuya hit him with a linear attack. Less petals hit Ichigo. Ichigo didn't get hit with full power.

I used small enough words for you to understand, I hope?
byakuya pushing out his reiatsu >= zaraki chilling out on the sidelines. i think i got the point of that simple statement.

Byakuya walking on a bridge > Zaraki testing to see whose strongest.

throwing millions of razors at a steel wall won't give them more cutting power coz they'll still hit a dead end when they come to contact with the wall.
The beginning of the sentence has no connection whatsoever with the ending. Throwing millions of razors at anything will give them more cutting power than simply pressing them against it because they are propelled with a greater force.

Shooting them out of a machine gun will give them more penetrating power. And I don't know how did you get from steel to wall, either. Wear an iron mail. Stand and take hits from a few millions of razorblades.

You're dead.
dude, just coz i don't carry the false belief that byakuya is the shiznit don't mean i "fail to comprehend basic Bleach facts."
Dude, just because you fail to comprehend the simple idea of collective destructive power doesn't mean you can try and argue against me. Better luck next time.
those millions of blades that hit ichigo n left him with millions of scratches? ***** please.
Go read again. Not all petals hit Ichigo. Ichigo took less damage.

I'm trying to use small words here, so even you can understand.
yup...coz i fail to see how an attack that left countless scratches on ichigo will somehow manage to destroy someone whose skin is immune to bleach.
Try to actually hit Ichigo with the full force of said attack first, then we'll talk.
zaraki mutilated noitora by using a strong sword n his brute strength plus kendo; he didn't repeatedly use the same technique that left a million scratches on ichigo.
Sigh... Zaraki gave one hit to Nnoitora. Byakuya will give a million. We've already shown the analogy of 5+5=10 and 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1=10.

And again, not all petals hit Ichigo. Ichigo no take full damage.
there's nothing to indicate that byakuya can sharpen the petals to make them penetrate, or that repeated attacks will eventually weaken heirro n make it penetrable. n even if they somehow inflict a couple scratches, byakuya would still be faced with the issue of having used most of his power in only one attack.
Sigh... why would Byakuya waste all his power in one attack? Why would Byakuya be unable to sharpen his reiatsu?

[diamondedge]

just coz he can't seal it don't mean he can't control it
Zaraki can't control his reiatsu, there is NO way around it, it was stated in the manga.

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][SIZE=2][FONT=Comic Sans MS]ichigo n zaraki don't have more AoE but their attacks are still stronger than SKY, period. as i said before, setting SKY into "repeat mode" (which we've never seen either)
Vs Ichigo fight, thanx. He was attacking repeatedly, but Ichigo was fast enough to dodge until Byakuya used full speed to catch him.

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][SIZE=2][FONT=Comic Sans MS]since u already agree that the petals don't get stronger, what's up with the "power*5" you keep hailing every couple posts? and there has still been no proof that the petals can cut through 6th or 5th. the only thing they do is inflict major damage on buildings n humans coz they grind through them, which still won't pay off when dealing with characters with strong skin.
Debatable.

Either way, it proves the point.
Shikai Senbonzakura was blown apart by GT, while SKY was able to block same attack effortlessly.

Why? Because there was more of petals, but lets say but their power didn't increase.
It just proves the number of petals does make a difference, a huge difference actually. Because SKY is both attack/defend and is able to do both equally well, this example clearly indicates that SKY that even if individual petal is weak, combined they can create a much stronger defense, and consequentially, greater offense. What is so hard to grasp about that concept?
Does it matter? No.

the petals penetrated ichigo millions of times n he was still left standing. how that same attack will manage to kill noitora is what i don't understand.
Ichigo was hit with SKY ONCE (pre Ichigo bankai), but Byakuya was shown to use SKY repeatedly after Ichigo went bankai, they just didn't hit them because he was able to dodge.

Does Nnoitora posess speed great enough to dodge SKY even ocne? No.

byakuya pushing out his reiatsu >= zaraki chilling out on the sidelines. i think i got the point of that simple statement.
Ahem. Byakuya was shown walking on the bridge after the statement is made, so you might want to take that back.:whatevah:

throwing millions of razors at a steel wall won't give them more cutting power coz they'll still hit a dead end when they come to contact with the wall.
It's not throwing, it's HIGH SPEED OMNI DIRECTIONAL ATTACKING.
I challenge you to tell the difference.

those millions of blades that hit ichigo n left him with millions of scratches? ***** please. zaraki w/o kendo literally killed ichigo in one strike n had his sword inches away from ichigo's spine.
They hit him ONCE.
We never argued that SKY ONE SHOTS people.

Has anyone laughed SKY off after being hit ONCE? No.
Can Byakuya attack as many times as he wants? Yes.
Blimey!!!

Undiying is totally right, you have no basic Bleach knowledge.

n even if they somehow inflict a couple scratches, byakuya would still be faced with the issue of having used most of his power in only one attack.
last time I checked attacking repeatedly does not affect Byakuya or SKY in the slightest. Because SKY is not bound to physical strength, which you still fail to see.

that's why i find the most logical thing for him to do would be to upgrade to hakuteiken so he can inflict major damage in one swing. but there's still the issue of byakuya lacking zaraki's physical strength, which is why i believe the most effective method for him to use would be restricting noitora's movements (prolly using an incantation) n concentrating on something rlly effective like cutting his head off.

Again, you are glorifying berserker mode to the extreme and make it sound like Zaraki is the ONLY captain that could possibly penetrate Nnoitora's skin, and that high tiers wouldn't stand a chance on 6 and below.

Examine what you're saying.

[Habanero]

Yes, it is very true that one petal may not have enough power to go through Nnoitora's skin. However, here comes the problem in your reasoning: Byakuya isn't using one petal at a time, he is using his reiatsu collectively. Since he can pour in all his reiatsu into an attack, even though not all petals hit the opponent, those that do hit are propelled with enough force to go along with the already sharpened reiatsu to give him enough attack power to pierce Nnoitora's skin.

In that case I could see the damage being dealt by a crushing type of blow, rather than a cutting one. Which would result in a solid smack instead of cutting through the skin. But who knows...?

[Undying]

In that case I could see the damage being dealt by a crushing type of blow, rather than a cutting one. Which would result in a solid smack instead of cutting through the skin. But who knows...?
Um, what difference does it make? I'll agree with you that it will make a solid smack, so whether it penetrates or not can be left for future debates or something.

Smash an iron armor with a heavy hammer.

Now put someone inside it and smash it again.

Damage is still dealt, eh? That's exactly my point, Byakuya wins, whether by smashing Nnoitora to death, or by shredding him.

[Habanero]

As I said before, I don't think Bya would lose. It was the cutting part that was pretty much the main point of debate for the last 15 pages (how very CB'ish btw :p )

I still think the other forms of Bya's bankai would better suit the particular fight. It's hard to get a good hit with a "big-ass hammer". :)

[smach]

giving noitora a big punch won't kill him, it'll just piss him off n make him fire a cero. once a cero is fired, byakuya will be forced to stop his attack to evade the shot. as Habanero n i have said many times, upgrading to something more effective is the only way for byakuya to certainly finish noitora off.

EDIT: also, from what i've seen so far, if you can't cut through someone then you can't damage the internals either. if it was possible to damage the internals even though your attack doesn't make the skin budge then grimjow should've had a couple swells on his hands from the time he came into contact with ichigo's sword, n zaraki should've acquired some form of internal damage when ichigo first swung at him. same applies to mr volcanica vs ikkaku n also szayel vs shikai renji.

[Sin]

I dunno i really think Byakuya has this one

I mean the sheer power of a million blades cutting Nnoitra from all directions is pretty hard to beat given that Nnoitra isn't the fastest or most mobile opponent. Byakuya's Sky and speed would make him hard for Nnoitra to hit in my honest opinion. I just don't see Byakuya losing this one.

[smach]

Well, he'll need to use Hakuteiken...that's for sure.

It's gonna be a three-step battle:
1) bankai
2) hakuteiken
3) KO

If he shuts up n keeps his arrogance to himself he could finish this in less than a minute.

[Nnoitora]

I believe Byakuya would take this. Nnoitora is quite skill with close range, flexibility, and quite combat intelligent But Byakuya can fight at a distance and has the speed to stay away.

[II Xion II]

You have to be kidding me.

90% of people here think Byakuya would win? :Haha:Haha:Haha

Nnoitra released is unstoppable. He effortlessly blocked Zaraki's one-handed, un-eyepatched blade and un-released he was manhandling Ichigo's bankai.

Now Byakuya is really a one-trick pony. Blades, blades, and more blades. Just change the form. :cm:

He cannot cut Nnoitra released if Ichigo's bankai couldn't scratch him unreleased and if Zaraki wasn't strong enough to overpower him un-eyepatched with one one hand on his blade.

Byakuya is strong, but he is no Kenpachi and he would do awfully without opponents with PIS.

Remember that bankais are shit for Espada unreleased, released Byakuya doesn't stand a chance in hell.

Bunch of Byakuya-tards here.

[Undying]

You have to be kidding me.

90% of people here think Byakuya would win? :Haha:Haha:Haha

Nnoitra released is unstoppable. He effortlessly blocked Zaraki's one-handed, un-eyepatched blade and un-released he was manhandling Ichigo's bankai.

Now Byakuya is really a one-trick pony. Blades, blades, and more blades. Just change the form. :cm:

He cannot cut Nnoitra released if Ichigo's bankai couldn't scratch him unreleased and if Zaraki wasn't strong enough to overpower him un-eyepatched with one one hand on his blade.

Byakuya is strong, but he is no Kenpachi and he would do awfully without opponents with PIS.

Remember that bankais are shit for Espada unreleased, released Byakuya doesn't stand a chance in hell.

Bunch of Byakuya-tards here.
It better be sarcasm I'm hearing from you. It better be.

I would answer in the same manner, good sir, but I swore that I will be user friendly. So here goes.

Byakuya is a one-trick pony? I believe you're mistaken, good sir, because it is Zaraki who is a one-trick pony - sword, more sword, two-hands on sword.

And he defeated Nnoitora easily, effortlessly, and without needing any supporting measures or additional combat capabilities beside his single trick: sword flailing.

Byakuya possesses far more tricks than Zaraki by virtue of being, well, himself. Being faster, as strong/stronger as Zaraki's base effortlessly, and having enough tricks under his sleeve to fill a circus, I believe it's evident why is it that no one who is not a Byakuya hater believes he will lose.

A more detailed answer...

Nnoitra released is unstoppable. He effortlessly blocked Zaraki's one-handed, un-eyepatched blade and un-released he was manhandling Ichigo's bankai.
Nnoitora released was being raped by one-handed un-patched Zaraki. If Zaraki was familiar with the concept of dodging, he would have butchered Nnoitora effortlessly. The only reason he even had to use Kendo was because he allowed himself to take so much damage he was beginning to really hurt.

Now Byakuya is really a one-trick pony. Blades, blades, and more blades. Just change the form. :cm:
I think you should look up the meaning of "one trick pony", because I don't think it means what you think it means.

It's worth remembering that when a person has multiple abilities and various different applications for just one weapon, they cease to be a one-trick pony. When they have a varying arsenal of completely different tricks and powers, they are absolutely not a one-trick pony.

He cannot cut Nnoitra released if Ichigo's bankai couldn't scratch him unreleased and if Zaraki wasn't strong enough to overpower him un-eyepatched with one one hand on his blade.Ichigo was depleted of power, as we quite clearly see from the fact that what'shisface, Nnoitora's subordinate, was kicking his ass. I suppose you could argue the point that what'shisface is actually way more powerful than Ichigo's bankai, except he got raped with a single attack from Kenpachi, which doesn't make much sense.

Since Byakuya can dodge, and since he can cut Nnoitora (if Zaraki can, so can Byakuya, because Byakuya can sharpen his reiatsu properly and flawlessly), he will have a far easier time taking Nnoitora out.

Also unlike Zaraki, he won't try to overpower Nnoitora, because it's not swordsmanship. He will wear him out. Or just use his ultimate offensive weapon which has 5-10 times Zaraki's base power at least and rinse him into pieces...

Byakuya is strong, but he is no Kenpachi and he would do awfully without opponents with PIS.
PISS? :o Anyway, Byakuya would do well against any opponent, considering his amounts of intelligence (what Zaraki lacks), his kido (what Zaraki lacks), actual skills (which Zaraki lacks) and abilities (which Zaraki also lacks).

Remember that bankais are shit for Espada unreleased, released Byakuya doesn't stand a chance in hell.
Every Espada so far with the exception of Nnoitora (who was beaten by a bnakialess baboon) was beaten by... a bankai. While released.


Bunch of Byakuya-tards here.
You're trolling AND flaming? Xion? Really?

[Esca]

It doesn't matter if someone has a Bankai if they have the power of a Bankai, which Zaraki DOES have since he has the MOST reaitsu amongst the captains. I'm not voting either way, but just pointing that out.

[Zanga]

He cannot cut Nnoitra released if Ichigo's bankai couldn't scratch him unreleased and if Zaraki wasn't strong enough to overpower him un-eyepatched with one one hand on his blade

Actually Zaraki was still able to cut Noitra, the chapter when Kenpachi is blocked is with his cresent blades not his skin. The next chapter has Zaraki cutting two of his arms off.

[Sin]

@Xion: Undying beat me too it

@Undying: Umm... though i agree with you... Zaraki isn't that bad, IF he wasn't so driven by enjoying fighting so much he would probably have made short work of Nnoitra. Which serves to say that Byakuya would probably make short work of Nnoitra too. Cause once Zaraki got serious the fight pretty much ended within like 2mins.

edit: by the way.. am going to quote you on what you just said about anyone attacking Ichigo while he's exhausted is no great feat. Just so you know :D

@Xion again: Given what i just said to undying Nnoitra really doesn't stand a chance.

Edit: @esca: ummm... what about Yamma or Aizen as far as base reiatsu?

[Rainl]

It doesn't matter if someone has a Bankai if they have the power of a Bankai, which Zaraki DOES have since he has the MOST reaitsu amongst the captains. I'm not voting either way, but just pointing that out.

Are you really esca? I honestly hope your joking about him having the most reiatsu. Zaraki's reiatsu with the eye patch off is nothing impressive compared to a person like Yama's who can drop VC's maybe even mid-low tier captain level opponents using pure reiatsu, UNRELEASED.

Sure Zaraki is sort of renowned for his reiatsu being uncontrollable, but bottom line, its shit compared to the Higher captains, eye patch or not sorry.

[Undying]

@Undying: Umm... though i agree with you... Zaraki isn't that bad, IF he wasn't so driven by enjoying fighting so much he would probably have made short work of Nnoitra. Which serves to say that Byakuya would probably make short work of Nnoitra too. Cause once Zaraki got serious the fight pretty much ended within like 2mins.
I think I need to clarify this... I do not claim that Zaraki is by any means bad. What he is is simple. Straightforward. A one-trick-pony who's only really impressive by the amount of sheer endless power he can shoot out of its own ass.

Zaraki is indeed a one-trick pony, because his only trick is his sword using. I never stated it's bad.

edit: by the way.. am going to quote you on what you just said about anyone attacking Ichigo while he's exhausted is no great feat. Just so you know :D
Enjoy yourself... I believe common sense dictates that attacking any opponent who has been exhausted and wounded heavily minutes before is not a feat to brag about. Let's give a metaphor because everyone likes it, eh?

Say some really, really, really famous martial artist is fighting some other really, really, really famous martial artist. Let's say Jackie Chan is fighting Jet Li. Now, let's say Jackie wins with a lucky strike, and, exhausted, stumbled away from the fight. Then I come in and fart in his face, and he can't even land a hit on me. Am I stronger than Jackie Chan? No, he is simply wounded, weakened, and wearied, so he's nowhere near using his real power.

[Esca]

Zaraki has the most reiatsu amongst the captains, but he has no control over it like his comrades, that's his thing.

Also, Yama-jii is the Captain COMMANDER, not a captain. Brigadier Generals aren't Generals and you don't refer to them such, so he's not included in the comparisons among the captains.

[Rainl]

I think I need to clarify this... I do not claim that Zaraki is by any means bad. What he is is simple. Straightforward. A one-trick-pony who's only really impressive by the amount of sheer endless power he can shoot out of its own ass.

Zaraki is indeed a one-trick pony, because his only trick is his sword using. I never stated it's bad.


Enjoy yourself... I believe common sense dictates that attacking any opponent who has been exhausted and wounded heavily minutes before is not a feat to brag about. Let's give a metaphor because everyone likes it, eh?

Say some really, really, really famous martial artist is fighting some other really, really, really famous martial artist. Let's say Jackie Chan is fighting Jet Li. Now, let's say Jackie wins with a lucky strike, and, exhausted, stumbled away from the fight. Then I come in and fart in his face, and he can't even land a hit on me. Am I stronger than Jackie Chan? No, he is simply wounded, weakened, and wearied, so he's nowhere near using his real power.

The main point of this statement is very true, which is exactly why I don't see how Aizen is worshipped based off of his power. Ill give him that he is extremely intelligent and crafty, but battle wise, as whats shown so far he isn't nearly as godly as made out to be. He is a prime of example of attacking someone who is worn out.

[Zanga]

Are you really esca? I honestly hope your joking about him having the most reiatsu. Zaraki's reiatsu with the eye patch off is nothing impressive compared to a person like Yama's who can drop VC's maybe even mid-low tier captain level opponents using pure reiatsu, UNRELEASED.

Sure Zaraki is sort of renowned for his reiatsu being uncontrollable, but bottom line, its shit compared to the Higher captains, eye patch or not sorry.

He's most likely up there with them, if anything higher. A captain's power isn't defined by his reaitsu, but by their skill, which I believe is how Shunsui and Ukitake are up there. You, nor anyone has anything you can say to prove they have more reaitsu besides Yama-jii saying they are the best, which again is not really a valid piece of evidence.

Unless I see either of them cutting down a building with a flick of their wrist, I'm not buying anything.

[Rainl]

He's most likely up there with them, if anything higher. A captain's power isn't defined by his reaitsu, but by their skill, which I believe is how Shunsui and Ukitake are up there. You, nor anyone has anything you can say to prove they have more reaitsu besides Yama-jii saying they are the best, which again is not really a valid piece of evidence..

We don't know if he's up there with them or not, because as you've clearly stated we don't have the valid evidence, BUT we do have the evidence, eyepatch off at that, that its no where near Yama's unreleased. So him being higher than him is pretty much void and him having the highest is void. Even shikai ichigo stood against it no problem.

Unless I see either of them cutting down a building with a flick of their wrist, I'm not buying anything.

We don't know this for sure, hell maybe even any mid-high tier is capable of doing the same thing. Maybe They choose not to because they are not nearly as reckless as Zaraki when it comes to battle and don't swing like a barbarian. So where people get he has the highest reiatsu or even as high as any High tier when we havn't even seen enough of any higher captain is beyond me.

[Zanga]

We don't know if he's up there with them or not, because as you've clearly stated we don't have the valid evidence, BUT we do have the evidence, eyepatch off at that, that its no where near Yama's unreleased. So him being higher than him is pretty much void and him having the highest is void. Even shikai ichigo stood against it no problem.

Where is the evidence saying Patchless Zaraki < Unreleased Yama-jii? To me it seems Zaraki seems to get bankai level reiatsu, since Byakuya did around the same amount of AOE(area of effect) damage against Renji. And in any case, Yama focused his reaitsu on her to get her out of the way so the real menz can fight, while Zaraki who was simply sitting down waiting for ichigo nearly killed Hanatarou through suffocation. I know it's kind of stupid to compare Hana to Nanao, but you can't argue that making someone faint can not compare to nearly killing someone, and that was Patched Zaraki. And this is the same Hanatarou was able to take a hit from Byakuya's reaitsu and say "Yeah I'm fine somehow", though it hit him hard aswell.

We don't know this for sure, hell maybe even any mid-high tier is capable of doing the same thing. Maybe They choose not to because they are not nearly as reckless as Zaraki when it comes to battle and don't swing like a barbarian. So where people get he has the highest reiatsu or even as high as any High tier when we havn't even seen enough of any higher captain is beyond me.

If Zaraki had only fought once, I'd agree with you, but Kubo has shown time and time again that Zaraki is a physically strong monster, and the reason why the others havent done the same is well maybe they can't(without their bankai ofcourse, and I'm obviously ignoring Yama here).

But real talk, he slices a building down with a hand movement, kicks Tousen 50 ft away nearly through a massivly thick wall, overpowers Komomaru, challenges his bankai(at first I thought he was crazy, but after recent ordeals, he might've just won -_-), cuts through the supposedly strongest Hierro and, in both un/released and with the flick of his wrist makes mince meat out of a giant boulder noitra send flying at him. No doubt Byakuya or Koma can do the same with their bankais, but that only proves Kenpachi patch-less is bankai level, which means he more natural reiatsu(by natural I mean no boosters like shikai or bankai. His eye patch isn't a boosterm but a restraint) then most if not all of Gotei captains(again, excluding Yama here).

And about the Shikai Ichigo thing, Zangetsu said he'd give Kenpachi all his powers correct?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/113/12/

Look behind Ichigo and tell me what that resembles.

Ogichi = Zangetsu. One in the same.

[Rainl]

Where is the evidence saying Patchless Zaraki < Unreleased Yama-jii? To me it seems Zaraki seems to get bankai level reiatsu, since Byakuya did around the same amount of AOE(area of effect) damage against Renji. And in any case, Yama focused his reaitsu on her to get her out of the way so the real menz can fight, while Zaraki who was simply sitting down waiting for ichigo nearly killed Hanatarou through suffocation. I know it's kind of stupid to compare Hana to Nanao, but you can't argue that making someone faint can not compare to nearly killing someone, and that was Patched Zaraki. And this is the same Hanatarou was able to take a hit from Byakuya's reaitsu and say "Yeah I'm fine somehow", though it hit him hard aswell.

You said if "anything the highest," to me it seems you think his is the highest of any captain with that statement, maybe you didn't mean it that way but thats how it was put off. It doesn't do any good to say he might have the highest when its already proven false.

Yes Yama may have focused a slim bit of reiatsu, it wasn't much to him because he was unreleased but it was hell to Nanao. Where as Zaraki is patchless letting every ounce of his reiatsu out. I know you stated we shouldn't compare Hana to Nanao, but whether we like it or not it has to be taken into consideration. Nanao is a VC Hana is what a 3rd, 4th seat, I cant remember.



If Zaraki had only fought once, I'd agree with you, but Kubo has shown time and time again that Zaraki is a physically strong monster, and the reason why the others havent done the same is well maybe they can't(without their bankai ofcourse, and I'm obviously ignoring Yama here).

Maybe they can't, maybe they can. So we still have to keep that in mind its a possibility. Take a look at Unohana, who specializes in Kendo, she could be leagues above Kenpachi, but since it isn't shown we don't know, but its still a possibilty so we still can't say Kenpachi is the most barbaric fighter.

But real talk, he slices a building down with a hand movement, kicks Tousen 50 ft away nearly through a massivly thick wall, overpowers Komomaru, challenges his bankai(at first I thought he was crazy, but after recent ordeals, he might've just won -_-),

As stated earlier its possible High tier captains can do the same, Yama ofc. No slashes are neccesary, he only has to sit there, the Reiatsu and Flames do the rest. Look at shunsui against chad I know he's not on Tousens level, but still it has to be noted. He merely touched chad with 1 finger and sent him flying damn near a mile away. We still don't know what happened during Kenpachi vs Komamura. He's brave, although this doesn't necessarily means he's the strongest.

cuts through the supposedly strongest Hierro and, in both un/released and with the flick of his wrist makes mince meat out of a giant boulder noitra send flying at him. No doubt Byakuya or Koma can do the same with their bankais, but that only proves Kenpachi patch-less is bankai level, which means he more natural reiatsu(by natural I mean no boosters like shikai or bankai. His eye patch isn't a boosterm but a restraint) then most if not all of Gotei captains(again, excluding Yama here).

"Supposedly the strongest." Without a doubt I do agree, Kenpachi's kendo is definately a threat to most characters[excluding a few, which are obvious], but for all we know Nnoitora could have merely been boasting. The same way he said he was the "Strongest Espada", which was proven wrong. He was an idiot who couldn't back up his claim, and got one shot dealed.

And about the Shikai Ichigo thing, Zangetsu said he'd give Kenpachi all his powers correct?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/113/12/

Look behind Ichigo and tell me what that resembles.

Ogichi = Zangetsu. One in the same.


True, but all in all he was still in shikai. That power right that very moment, still isnt as high as his power in Bankai.

[diamondedge]

@Xion: I'm not taking you seriously since this is obvious troll attempt or you're smoked.
Zaraki has the most reiatsu amongst the captains, but he has no control over it like his comrades, that's his thing.

Also, Yama-jii is the Captain COMMANDER, not a captain. Brigadier Generals aren't Generals and you don't refer to them such, so he's not included in the comparisons among the captains.
Yamamoto is the 1st division captain, but his role is also the captain commander.
And be so kind to direct me to manga page where it's stated "Zaraki has the most reiatsu among the captains" or something similar, so I'll know where you got that idea.

The only thing we know about Zaraki's reiatsu that it's huge, but we have no way of knowing if it's the highest. He is just unable to control it.


Zaraki isn't that bad, IF he wasn't so driven by enjoying fighting so much
I think that's what makes Zaraki one of the most formidable opponents.

He needs no reason to win, he has no friends to save, he can move up his game without having to rely on anyone else, he needs no exterior motives.

[Zanzasu]

I believe that Byakuya would win because his Bankai would easily defeat Nnoitora.

[II Xion II]

It better be sarcasm I'm hearing from you. It better be.

I love you as much as the next flaming hot woman Undying, but do you honestly think Byakuya could beat someone stronger than Grimmjow?

Bleach isn't exactly a logical manga, but power levels are not that screwed up.

I would answer in the same manner, good sir, but I swore that I will be user friendly. So here goes.

Byakuya is a one-trick pony? I believe you're mistaken, good sir, because it is Zaraki who is a one-trick pony - sword, more sword, two-hands on sword.

And he defeated Nnoitora easily, effortlessly, and without needing any supporting measures or additional combat capabilities beside his single trick: sword flailing.

Indeed.

I agree with both of those points. Zaraki is a powerhouse and as such has no problems splitting buildings in half with a flick of his sword and beating two captains with just his freaking sword.

So yes, he is a one trick pony. The argument could be made for most Bleach characters. But Byakuya is more than just a one trick pony, he is also a non-powerhouse.

Byakuya possesses far more tricks than Zaraki by virtue of being, well, himself. Being faster, as strong/stronger as Zaraki's base effortlessly, and having enough tricks under his sleeve to fill a circus, I believe it's evident why is it that no one who is not a Byakuya hater believes he will lose.

Byakuya IS faster, more intelligent, and more capable than Zaraki but Zaraki is still much stronger...raw strength wise and durability wise.

You cannot deny the Espada-Captain matchups were perfectly synced. Zaraki, a powerhouse, with Nnoitra, a powerhouse. Byakuya, an arrogant albeit talented shinigami, with Zomari, a arrogant Espada with PIS-h4x.

But there is what I would call...the ultimate battle barrier which only main characters can surpass mid-fight...that means that certain opponents are on such a different level than other characters that chances of beating them without extreme PIS or Plotkai are almost impossible in any logical sense. This is one of those cases.

The Espada are painted as vastly superior hybrids that effortlessly brush off bankai, especially six and below. Grimmjow manhandled bankai Ichigo's bankai to no end, the same bankai that was almost matching Byakuya's bankai's final form. Released Grimmjow was fighting evenly (perhaps better for a certain amount of time) with Vaizard bankai Ichigo and when a glimpse of Ichigo's hollow appeared, he was really thrashing on Byakuya's bankai's final form.

Then there was Ulquiorra who defeated bankai Vaizard Ichihgo effortlessly (or at least brushed off his attack as such) unreleased.

So Nnoitra's power level is between those two and indeed unreleased he too was manhandling Ichigo's bankai. While he did lose to Zaraki, it was Zaraki's hardest battle and even with his eyepatch off, he couldn't overpower Nnoitra despite beating two captains with his eyepatch on. Nnoitra's power level and those of the nearby Espada seem to indicate that shikai is absolutely useless against them and than bankai would be no exception (except for Zaraki, but only because he has no other way to fight besides his sword).

So I reason that despite his blades of flowers, he won't be able to even cut Nnoitra, let alone overpower him with them. Admittedly he is a good guy so in a Kubo fight he would likely win, but in all logical sense him winning being an ordinary captain who lost to Ichigo is ridiculous.

Speed or no speed, kidou or no kidou...logic goes against him winning. Especially with his bankai's final form which kind of plays against his speed since it's equivalent to a cage.

Nnoitora released was being raped by one-handed un-patched Zaraki. If Zaraki was familiar with the concept of dodging, he would have butchered Nnoitora effortlessly. The only reason he even had to use Kendo was because he allowed himself to take so much damage he was beginning to really hurt.

I think you should look up the meaning of "one trick pony", because I don't think it means what you think it means.

It's worth remembering that when a person has multiple abilities and various different applications for just one weapon, they cease to be a one-trick pony. When they have a varying arsenal of completely different tricks and powers, they are absolutely not a one-trick pony.

Ichigo was depleted of power, as we quite clearly see from the fact that what'shisface, Nnoitora's subordinate, was kicking his ass. I suppose you could argue the point that what'shisface is actually way more powerful than Ichigo's bankai, except he got raped with a single attack from Kenpachi, which doesn't make much sense.

Since Byakuya can dodge, and since he can cut Nnoitora (if Zaraki can, so can Byakuya, because Byakuya can sharpen his reiatsu properly and flawlessly), he will have a far easier time taking Nnoitora out.

Also unlike Zaraki, he won't try to overpower Nnoitora, because it's not swordsmanship. He will wear him out. Or just use his ultimate offensive weapon which has 5-10 times Zaraki's base power at least and rinse him into pieces...[/QUOTE]

See above.

PISS? :o Anyway, Byakuya would do well against any opponent, considering his amounts of intelligence (what Zaraki lacks), his kido (what Zaraki lacks), actual skills (which Zaraki lacks) and abilities (which Zaraki also lacks).

Zaraki is unbeatable though as Kubo clearly wants to illustrate. He'll just pull out shikai/bankai for his next opponent...or three.

Every Espada so far with the exception of Nnoitora (who was beaten by a bnakialess baboon) was beaten by... a bankai. While released.

Only up to seven. Six was a VAIZARD bankai, which is supposedly infinitely more powerful than bankai.

Tell me. Do you think Byakuya could beat Ulquiorra? I am just curious.

You're trolling AND flaming? Xion? Really?

I love you and all.

But don't pseudomod. :)

My post was long and detailed enough to not be considered trolling and referencing "tards" in a somewhat joking manner is hardly flaming.

But I have to remember I have to be more "appropriate" here with my usual caustic style I use elsewhere. :p

[Undying]

I love you as much as the next flaming hot woman Undying, but do you honestly think Byakuya could beat someone stronger than Grimmjow?

Bleach isn't exactly a logical manga, but power levels are not that screwed up.
Nnoitora is stronger than Grimmjow? I will believe it when a one-trick pony who's only impressive feats are the size of his tongue and the amount of arms he can randomly spurt out of its ass beats a versatile fighter who uses a combination of speed, power, range and melee to fight.

Grimmjow demonstrated a hundred times more power than Nnoitora, put up a more impressive fight, and had more abilities and attacks.

Remember, the Espada are not ranked by "power", they are ranked by "killing ability". Since Nnoitora can regenerate and randomly stab his opponent, as well as using any underhanded means, he is ranked "higher", but is not more powerful.

Let's take a little walk to another manga, shall we? History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi. There are 8 fists within a street gang, presumably ranked by power. However, the 6th, 5th, and 4th first are all messed up in ranking: the 6th is clearly the strongest in power, having the highest offensive ability, the 5th is a "zombie" like Nnoitora who specializes in counter attacking, and therefore is ranked higher because his style tends to defeat most opponents. But if he and the 6th fist faced off, the 6th would come out on top, because his style is far more deadly. The 4th first, while powerful, is weaker than the 6th and 5th.

What this example shows is that even when a fighter may appear to be stronger because of their status of reputation, in reality what decides who is stronger is their full arsenal of abilities.

Now, Byakuya has as much reiatsu as Zaraki's base (i.e., he's already a powerhouse without any special ability), and he has a full loaded arsenal of abilities that compliment and increase his power drastically over Zaraki's. A simple example: Byakuya can cut Nnoitora, there's no arguing there, so what stops him from using a combination of Kido and a headslash to kill Nnoitora in one swing?

Byakuya is far more than capable of beating the former 8th Espada.

It's also worth remembering that Nnoitora is a half-reject who used to have a lower rank, while Grimmjow always had his rank, indicating his power was greater from the get go.
Indeed.

I agree with both of those points. Zaraki is a powerhouse and as such has no problems splitting buildings in half with a flick of his sword and beating two captains with just his freaking sword.

So yes, he is a one trick pony. The argument could be made for most Bleach characters. But Byakuya is more than just a one trick pony, he is also a non-powerhouse.
Byakuya is a power house. I don't even need to start elaborating on all his powers - starting from power equaling Zaraki, continuing with his flawless abilities (master of all abilities is not a power house?), and his wide arsenal of abilities that add to his power.

Byakuya IS faster, more intelligent, and more capable than Zaraki but Zaraki is still much stronger...raw strength wise and durability wise.
So what? This is not Zaraki VS Byakuya! This is Byakuya VS Nnoitora, and Byakuya has the clear advantage in every point.

You cannot deny the Espada-Captain matchups were perfectly synced. Zaraki, a powerhouse, with Nnoitra, a powerhouse. Byakuya, an arrogant albeit talented shinigami, with Zomari, a arrogant Espada with PIS-h4x.
How that makes Byakuya somehow magically weaker than Zaraki is beyond me.

But there is what I would call...the ultimate battle barrier which only main characters can surpass mid-fight...that means that certain opponents are on such a different level than other characters that chances of beating them without extreme PIS or Plotkai are almost impossible in any logical sense. This is one of those cases.
Oh, please. A master of all abilities, with tons of power, the ultimate offensive weapon, facing a half-reject, the former 8th Espada who has 3 tricks under his sleeve, and Byakuya would need plotkai to kick his sorry ass?

The Espada are painted as vastly superior hybrids that effortlessly brush off bankai, especially six and below. Grimmjow manhandled bankai Ichigo's bankai to no end, the same bankai that was almost matching Byakuya's bankai's final form. Released Grimmjow was fighting evenly (perhaps better for a certain amount of time) with Vaizard bankai Ichigo and when a glimpse of Ichigo's hollow appeared, he was really thrashing on Byakuya's bankai's final form.
Ichigo was nowhere near "nearly matched up to" Byakuya's bankai; he outspeeded it. Any other weapon would be in a tough situation facing Byakuya's bankai, since it requires a load of offensive speed (i.e., attack speed, as opposed to Grimmjow's movement speed). Grimmjow was shown to be able to match Ichigo's movement speed, and even that in linear attacks. He's nowhere near the offensive speed required to defeat Byakuya's bankai.

And Nnoitora, who is a far slower opponent, not to mention stupider, AND a half reject, would be in a deathly pinch. Not enough that Byakuya has at least three ways of kicking his ass from the get go, Bankai Byakuya would completely outclass Nnoitora, since Nnoitora cannot block the bankai and will be repeatedly hit by a power which is ten times greater than Byakuya's bas power, which in turn it equal to Zaraki's base power... and unless you're making a case that Zaraki's eye patch gives him a 10x power upgrade, it is also far greater than Zaraki's unpatched strength.

Then there was Ulquiorra who defeated bankai Vaizard Ichihgo effortlessly (or at least brushed off his attack as such) unreleased.
How does that relate to anything? Ulqiora demonstrated speed and power superior to Grimmjow's, Ulqiorra is a potential Vastlord, and Ulqiorra was not the former 8th Espada who mystically rose through the ranks despite having the most atrociously worthless ability in existence.

So Nnoitra's power level is between those two and indeed unreleased he too was manhandling Ichigo's bankai. While he did lose to Zaraki, it was Zaraki's hardest battle and even with his eyepatch off, he couldn't overpower Nnoitra despite beating two captains with his eyepatch on. Nnoitra's power level and those of the nearby Espada seem to indicate that shikai is absolutely useless against them and than bankai would be no exception (except for Zaraki, but only because he has no other way to fight besides his sword).
Woah, horsie stop. Let's review your assumptions and blatant mistakes:

1. Nnoitora was manhandling Ichigo's bankai. Stop right there. Ichigo was exhausted, wounded, and drained from fighting a REAL opponent who used speed, strength, tactics, range, close quarter combat, and was not a former half-ass. This is not a testament to Nnoitora's power, it's a testament to his ability to beat a half-dead fighter.

If I beat Bruce Lee, or Jackie Chan, or Jet Li, or name whoever you want when they are half-beaten, exhausted, wounded, and depleted of stamina after fighting an insanely powerful opponent, that doesn't make me uber.

2. Zaraki beat two captains with his eyepatch on. Stop right there. Zaraki did NOT beat two captains with his eyepatch on. The fight against Tousen is debatable since it is unclear whether Tousen was acting or just being a retard Zaraki won through plotkai (which according to you means he's a weaksauce), and he never really had a chance to fight all out against Komamura, as the fight was stopped midway.

This is not a testament to Zaraki's power, it is a testament to the fact that Tousen is a retard, Zaraki doesn't fear the dark, and that Komamura has a bankai.

Conclusion: Nnoitora is a weaksauce. Not that we needed another reason to believe that, seeing as he was, well, the former 8th Espada and a joke compared to Grimmjow.

So I reason that despite his blades of flowers, he won't be able to even cut Nnoitra, let alone overpower him with them. Admittedly he is a good guy so in a Kubo fight he would likely win, but in all logical sense him winning being an ordinary captain who lost to Ichigo is ridiculous.
Once again, assumptions with no facts behind them, jumping on bandwagon issues, and not good debating...

Byakuya's shikai is pretty useless against anyone who isn't Ganju-level opponents or really slow people. Or anyone Hitsugaya-level and below.

As for "not cutting Nnoitora", anything in Bleach can be cut, presuming the reiatsu has been sharpened enough. Ichigo is the first and only demonstration of this, as any captain, even Zaraki, can sharpen their reiatsu (the slightly disturbing "I'm used to your hardness" comment shows how Zaraki sharpened his reiatsu so that he could cut Nnoitora). Now, Byakuya his flawless abilities, so he will obviously be able to sharpen his reiatsu to the point he can easily cut Nnoitora.

Make that offensive power 10 times stronger (bankai) and we'll be seeing a lot of Nnoitora body parts flying off.

Speed or no speed, kidou or no kidou...logic goes against him winning. Especially with his bankai's final form which kind of plays against his speed since it's equivalent to a cage.
What moon lojic are you using, then? I'll love to hear it. Speed, Kido, power are exactly the things that will beat Nnoitora, and he has all three, plus a brain he actually uses.

Speed will allow him to avoid damage - which is Nnoitora's greatest problem, since he is very slow, and his attacks are even slower.

Kido will bind Nnoitora in place, and as we've seen even a vastly weaker opponent can bind a superior enemy for a while with a proper Kido. Byakuya is not inferior to Nnoitora (he is in fact superior) so he will have no problem binding him.

So speed and Kido are enough to completely avoid Nnoitora's pathetic offensive, which is halfway to victory already - you know, when your opponent can't land a single hit on you and shit? That usually means you're already halfway to beating them, the only thing that's left is deciding how will you beat them.

Zaraki is unbeatable though as Kubo clearly wants to illustrate. He'll just pull out shikai/bankai for his next opponent...or three.
Good god. I never thought I'd see the day when I hear this from you. So I'll answer you in the same manner: on his next fight, Byakuya will pull out the Super Saiyan kai and have golden hair.

Byakuya is unbeatable. Zaraki is also, so they both wouldn't lose a fight. And it has nothing to do with Byakuya pwning Nnoitora, that is a perfectly logical outcome - him beating too fast, too smart, and too powerful for the former 8th Espada and shiet.

Only up to seven. Six was a VAIZARD bankai, which is supposedly infinitely more powerful than bankai.
No evidence to that effect, pure speculation. A Vaizard power upgrade is just that, a Vaizard power upgrade. We have no way of knowing how much power it really gives.

Also, five was beaten without even a bankai... but then five is a failure; he's the former 8th.

Tell me. Do you think Byakuya could beat Ulquiorra? I am just curious.
What does this have to do with anything? And I don't know, I have no idea what are Ulqiorra's abilities are, so I can't quite tell you.

I love you and all.

But don't pseudomod. :)
Don't even go there brother. Don't even go there.

My post was long and detailed enough to not be considered trolling and referencing "tards" in a somewhat joking manner is hardly flaming.
No, your post was obvious trolling, seeing as it ignored everything that was posted up until this point, was completely ridiculous, and showed ignorance of many facts, as I've clearly demonstrated. Starting from Nnoitora being the former 8th and a failure and continuing with the fact that superior speed, intelligence, power, weapon, and abilities are more than enough to defeat a moron who only relies on shooting arms out of his ass and too much talking.

But I have to remember I have to be more "appropriate" here with my usual caustic style I use elsewhere. :p
Yes, you wouldn't want to get me banned for showing you real attitude, would you? :whatevah:

[II Xion II]

Nnoitora is stronger than Grimmjow? I will believe it when a one-trick pony who's only impressive feats are the size of his tongue and the amount of arms he can randomly spurt out of its ass beats a versatile fighter who uses a combination of speed, power, range and melee to fight.

I go by what the manga states, and quite clearly it states that the Espada are ranked in terms of their power, unless you fundamentally disagree with that notion and hence want to rate it in terms of "usefulness to Aizen" or other non-canonical ways.

Grimmjow demonstrated a hundred times more power than Nnoitora, put up a more impressive fight, and had more abilities and attacks.

I would agree with you that from what was displayed, Grimmjow should be better. But Nnoitra is clearly the Fifth while Grimmjow is the Sixth. That is canon my friend. He might have more skills than Nnoitra but I doubt he is stronger since *insert canon about ranking of the Espada*.

Remember, the Espada are not ranked by "power", they are ranked by "killing ability". Since Nnoitora can regenerate and randomly stab his opponent, as well as using any underhanded means, he is ranked "higher", but is not more powerful.

Sounds like an argument in semantics.

And putting it that ways is entirely subjective. I disagree with many things in Bleach, but questioning the ranking system is one of the more touchy areas.

While I agree it is not set in stone (as Nnoitra demonstrated through his ascension), I also do not think (even if the rankings were not 100% accurate) they are necessarily flawed. Sure, Grimmjow might win against Nnoitra, but it wouldn't likely be an exponentially greater victory. And hence I see Byakuya versing either having the same result.

Let's take a little walk to another manga, shall we? History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi. There are 8 fists within a street gang, presumably ranked by power. However, the 6th, 5th, and 4th first are all messed up in ranking: the 6th is clearly the strongest in power, having the highest offensive ability, the 5th is a "zombie" like Nnoitora who specializes in counter attacking, and therefore is ranked higher because his style tends to defeat most opponents. But if he and the 6th fist faced off, the 6th would come out on top, because his style is far more deadly. The 4th first, while powerful, is weaker than the 6th and 5th.

I ignored this because I am not sure what anime/manga this is from and do not want to be spoiled. Kenshin?

What this example shows is that even when a fighter may appear to be stronger because of their status of reputation, in reality what decides who is stronger is their full arsenal of abilities.

I agree in theory, but hypothesizing such things too far out (like Grimmjow being much stronger) basically redefines the rules of the debate so that anything can go rather than canon. It's like me saying Byakuya would win because he would whip out Hadou #91. :cm:

Now, Byakuya has as much reiatsu as Zaraki's base (i.e., he's already a powerhouse without any special ability), and he has a full loaded arsenal of abilities that compliment and increase his power drastically over Byakuya. A simple example: Byakuya can cut Nnoitora, there's no arguing there, so what stops him from using a combination of Kido and a headslash to kill Nnoitora in one swing?

He can cut Nnoitra? As much reiatsu as Zaraki's base? Reiatsu changes?

I'll admit he has many abilities, but so does Nnoitra.

Ummm...uhhhh...slash, swipe, and grow. :)

Byakuya is far more than capable of beating the former 8th Espada.

Keyword is former.

Nnoitra would have no problem beating the former unseated shinigami.

See what I did there?

It's also worth remembering that Nnoitora is a half-reject who used to have a lower rank, while Grimmjow always had his rank, indicating his power was greater from the get go.

We don't know that he was always six.

Byakuya is a power house. I don't even need to start elaborating on all his powers - starting from power equaling Zaraki, continuing with his flawless abilities (master of all abilities is not a power house?), and his wide arsenal of abilities that add to his power.

I meant powerhouse as in raw strength and durability, not so much as multi-skilled.

So what? This is not Zaraki VS Byakuya! This is Byakuya VS Nnoitora, and Byakuya has the clear advantage in every point.

How that makes Byakuya somehow magically weaker than Zaraki is beyond me.

Maybe if they were on the same power tier, which they clearly aren't with him being the Fifth Espada and all and brushing off bankai attacks like they were nothing.

Oh, please. A master of all abilities, with tons of power, the ultimate offensive weapon, facing a half-reject, the former 8th Espada who has 3 tricks under his sleeve, and Byakuya would need plotkai to kick his sorry ass?

Do I sense Nnoitra hating? First of all, stop stating his "former" rank as that has little to do with anything since everyone can have former ranks and advance. Second, tricks have nothing to do with it. He is simply on a whole other level.

Ichigo was nowhere near "nearly matched up to" Byakuya's bankai; he outspeeded it. Any other weapon would be in a tough situation facing Byakuya's bankai, since it requires a load of offensive speed (i.e., attack speed, as opposed to Grimmjow's movement speed). Grimmjow was shown to be able to match Ichigo's movement speed, and even that in linear attacks. He's nowhere near the offensive speed required to defeat Byakuya's bankai.

Speed has little to do with it. Waving his scythe(s) could blow away the blades or his bankai couldn't even cut him, plus we have no idea of Nnoitra's speed and dodging ability in such a scenario.

And Nnoitora, who is a far slower opponent, not to mention stupider, AND a half reject, would be in a deathly pinch. Not enough that Byakuya has at least three ways of kicking his ass from the get go, Bankai Byakuya would completely outclass Nnoitora, since Nnoitora cannot block the bankai and will be repeatedly hit by a power which is ten times greater than Byakuya's bas power, which in turn it equal to Zaraki's base power... and unless you're making a case that Zaraki's eye patch gives him a 10x power upgrade, it is also far greater than Zaraki's unpatched strength.

He was manhandling Ichigo's bankai, the same bankai that was outclassing and outspeeding Byakuya. Enough said.

How does that relate to anything? Ulqiora demonstrated speed and power superior to Grimmjow's, Ulqiorra is a potential Vastlord, and Ulqiorra was not the former 8th Espada who mystically rose through the ranks despite having the most atrociously worthless ability in existence.

The 8th Espada stuff again? Seriously, the current (well former) 8th Espada could have beaten Byakuya through simple voodoo tricks.

Woah, horsie stop. Let's review your assumptions and blatant mistakes:

1. Nnoitora was manhandling Ichigo's bankai. Stop right there. Ichigo was exhausted, wounded, and drained from fighting a REAL opponent who used speed, strength, tactics, range, close quarter combat, and was not a former half-ass. This is not a testament to Nnoitora's power, it's a testament to his ability to beat a half-dead fighter.

The same argument has been used for Aizen blocking Ichigo's bankai with a finger and we all know how right that turned out to be.

Just because he is not worn out does not mean he can suddenly cut someone who is higher ranked than Grimmjow in mere bankai form.

If I beat Bruce Lee, or Jackie Chan, or Jet Li, or name whoever you want when they are half-beaten, exhausted, wounded, and depleted of stamina after fighting an insanely powerful opponent, that doesn't make me uber.

Still, power assumptions based on ranking and opponents suggests that even fully charged he wouldn't be able to get a hit off of him, just like his first fight with Grimmjow.

2. Zaraki beat two captains with his eyepatch on. Stop right there. Zaraki did NOT beat two captains with his eyepatch on. The fight against Tousen is debatable since it is unclear whether Tousen was acting or just being a retard Zaraki won through plotkai (which according to you means he's a weaksauce), and he never really had a chance to fight all out against Komamura, as the fight was stopped midway.

This is not a testament to Zaraki's power, it is a testament to the fact that Tousen is a retard, Zaraki doesn't fear the dark, and that Komamura has a bankai.

Fine, he didn't beat them. But he definitely beat Tousen (didn't look like he was acting, though it was PIS, just like Zomari's fight) and Komamura left shortly after bankai. And Zaraki was not having many problems with his eyepatch on against both of them.

Conclusion: Nnoitora is a weaksauce. Not that we needed another reason to believe that, seeing as he was, well, the former 8th Espada and a joke compared to Grimmjow.

Former...former...former...former...former...

Once again, assumptions with no facts behind them, jumping on bandwagon issues, and not good debating...

This is a subjective matter so there will always be differing opinions and this will never be settled, but my arguments are at least based on canon and not secret power levels that defy canon and theories that have nothing to do with canon debating (like with Tousen and Nnoitra being weak because hew as the eighth a while ago).

Byakuya's shikai is pretty useless against anyone who isn't Ganju-level opponents or really slow people. Or anyone Hitsugaya-level and below.

At least we agree on something. Hitsugaya hate. :cm:

As for "not cutting Nnoitora", anything in Bleach can be cut, presuming the reiatsu has been sharpened enough. Ichigo is the first and only demonstration of this, as any captain, even Zaraki, can sharpen their reiatsu (the slightly disturbing "I'm used to your hardness" comment shows how Zaraki sharpened his reiatsu so that he could cut Nnoitora). Now, Byakuya his flawless abilities, so he will obviously be able to sharpen his reiatsu to the point he can easily cut Nnoitora.

Reiatsu shaping, levels, and everything else is far from canon.

Make that offensive power 10 times stronger (bankai) and we'll be seeing a lot of Nnoitora body parts flying off.

What moon lojic are you using, then? I'll love to hear it. Speed, Kido, power are exactly the things that will beat Nnoitora, and he has all three, plus a brain he actually uses.

Speed will allow him to avoid damage - which is Nnoitora's greatest problem, since he is very slow, and his attacks are even slower.

Kido will bind Nnoitora in place, and as we've seen even a vastly weaker opponent can bind a superior enemy for a while with a proper Kido. Byakuya is not inferior to Nnoitora (he is in fact superior) so he will have no problem binding him.

He's not inferior is your whole argument when that itself needs to be proved. Bakudou can be broken, especially by stronger opponents, regardless if whether or not hey are actually stronger than the other person (as Hachi and Ken...whatever his name is demonstrated).

So speed and Kido are enough to completely avoid Nnoitora's pathetic offensive, which is halfway to victory already - you know, when your opponent can't land a single hit on you and shit? That usually means you're already halfway to beating them, the only thing that's left is deciding how will you beat them.

Good god. I never thought I'd see the day when I hear this from you. So I'll answer you in the same manner: on his next fight, Byakuya will pull out the Super Saiyan kai and have golden hair.

Byakuya is unbeatable. Zaraki is also, so they both wouldn't lose a fight. And it has nothing to do with Byakuya pwning Nnoitora, that is a perfectly logical outcome - him beating too fast, too smart, and too powerful for the former 8th Espada and shiet.

Kubo probably would have Byakuya win, but the facts of hybridization and displayed power levels he is in between and other things conclude that he is stronger in all logical sense.

No evidence to that effect, pure speculation. A Vaizard power upgrade is just that, a Vaizard power upgrade. We have no way of knowing how much power it really gives.

Come now. Based on Ichigo's bankai form (the comparisons I am making are mostly on his fights) and Vaizard bankai form, the power difference is exponential.

Also, five was beaten without even a bankai... but then five is a failure; he's the former 8th.

Please stop with that. Repeating it enough will not make the argument better. Argumentum ad nauseam.

Zaraki is the sole exception and has shown a pure power level above that of even Byakuya.

What does this have to do with anything? And I don't know, I have no idea what are Ulqiorra's abilities are, so I can't quite tell you.

Fair enough.

Don't even go there brother. Don't even go there.

Then don't be doing that here. :mad:

No, your post was obvious trolling, seeing as it ignored everything that was posted up until this point, was completely ridiculous, and showed ignorance of many facts, as I've clearly demonstrated.

I apologize I cannot read thirty pages of two sentence Byakuya predictions. [/HYPERBOLE]

I responded to yours because yours was the most surprising since I usually agree with you on everything.

Starting from Nnoitora being the former 8th and a failure and continuing with the fact that superior speed, intelligence, power, weapon, and abilities are more than enough to defeat a moron who only relies on shooting arms out of his ass and too much talking.

You did it again...pl...ea..se...stop.

:eek13:

Yes, you wouldn't want to get me banned for showing you real attitude, would you? :whatevah:

I had a whole book of response to that. But I don't want to be your enemy. Just your humble voice of reason. :cm:

[Undying]

I go by what the manga states, and quite clearly it states that the Espada are ranked in terms of their power, unless you fundamentally disagree with that notion and hence want to rate it in terms of "usefulness to Aizen" or other non-canonical ways.
This goes against canonical manga statements. Shawlong openly stated that the Espada are ranked by their "destructive capabilities" or "killing ability" depending on the scanlation. Either way, it has very little relevance to actual power.

So you don't go by what the manga states.

I would agree with you that from what was displayed, Grimmjow should be better. But Nnoitra is clearly the Fifth while Grimmjow is the Sixth. That is canon my friend. He might have more skills than Nnoitra but I doubt he is stronger since *insert canon about ranking of the Espada*.
Canon about ranking of the Espada: Espada are ranked by their killing ability, not their power. Grimmjow is the strongest and the better fighter (he's not only way superior to Nnoitora, he's also faster than him by FAR), but his killing ability is lower because he doesn't spurt hands out of his ass.

Grimmjow is clearly the superior fighter between the two. That is canon my friend. Oh, and Nnoitora is the ****ing former 8th Espada. He's a weaksauce who rose through the ranks by an inexplicable manner while still maintaining his uselessness and pathetic fighting power. The only thing that goes for him is his ability to dish out massive amounts of damage with each attack, which to anyone who is familiar with the concept of dodging is not a problem at all. That's why he always uses underhanded methods to kill his opponents, because otherwise he'd be in deep shit.

Sounds like an argument in semantics.

And putting it that ways is entirely subjective. I disagree with many things in Bleach, but questioning the ranking system is one of the more touchy areas.

While I agree it is not set in stone (as Nnoitra demonstrated through his ascension), I also do not think (even if the rankings were not 100% accurate) they are necessarily flawed. Sure, Grimmjow might win against Nnoitra, but it wouldn't likely be an exponentially greater victory. And hence I see Byakuya versing either having the same result.
First of all, I have the canon manga on my side which shows that the higher ranked are not necessarily the superior fighters. This is openly stated and demonstrated; Yammy is superior to Aaroniero but is ranked lower, Szayel has lower combat capabilities but is ranked higher than Pumpkin man, and Nnoitora is a loser with a lot of power who is ranked higher than a clearly superior warrior.

This isn't semantics, it's fact. Espada are not ranked by their fighting powers, they are ranked by their ability to kill. Nnoitora's underhanded fighting is more efficient in killing or destroying his opponents than Grimmjow's straightforward fighting style, despite Grimmjow being the superior fighter in all areas (speed, tactics, abilities... in fact the only area where he may be slightly inferior is power, and that's not certain either because Grimmjow was pretty equal to Ichigo's vaizard bankai which is superior to Ichigo's normal shikai which is about equal to one-armed Zaraki).

In the end, the former 8th Espada, whose power is so low he had to resort to underhanded methods in order to increase his killing ability, is no match for a fighter who isn't half-dead, wounded, and about whom Nnoitora knowns nothing whatsoever.

I ignored this because I am not sure what anime/manga this is from and do not want to be spoiled. Kenshin?
History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi. And you couldn't have missed the point more if you tried to reach it from another country while looking at another direction. The point of this example is not to demonstrate any correlation between anime. It is to demonstrate that when it comes to ranking, the ranks not always demonstrate one's actual fighting powers and where they are compared to the higher ranked in the same organization.

A strong fighter who fights straightforward and honorable will have less ability to kill than an underhanded fighter who does have some power and who sneaks and attacks his opponents where they are weakest.

Quot et demonstrantum, said Undy, like the big literary fag that he is. The ranking represent only the Espada's ability to kill. They do not reflect on who is the superior fighter or the stronger one.

I agree in theory, but hypothesizing such things too far out (like Grimmjow being much stronger) basically redefines the rules of the debate so that anything can go rather than canon. It's like me saying Byakuya would win because he would whip out Hadou #91. :cm:
:toocool: Of course Byakuya would win because he can pull out Hadou #91; because he will decimate Nnoitora's head in minutes. That's not the point. The point is to demonstrate that a higher ranked fighter in an organization which openly states that their ranking is based on killing ability rather than power is not always the stronger fighter.

Grimmjow is vastly superior to anything Nnoitora showed - he has the superior fighting style, he has range, melee, different attacks, insane movement speed (he is as fast as/faster than bankai Ichigo, a bankai that is openly stated to be focused on speed as it's "specialty" or "ultimate power"), he applies tactics (firing at Orihime to make Ichigo take the hit). This has been demonstrated very well by the fact that Ichigo won through sheer plotkai - he actually won after not being able to take anymore damage, his vaizard upgrade was already receding.

So yeah. The cookie monster doesn't agree. Oh, and did I mention that Nnoitora is the former 8th Espada? You know, ranked LOWER than Grimmjow's rank?

He can cut Nnoitra? As much reiatsu as Zaraki's base? Reiatsu changes?
All canon statements. Look it up... and I'll explain:

Anything and anyone in Bleach can be cut. The only matter is the reiatsu compression. We are introduced to it at the Zaraki fight: Ichigo, a far inferior opponent in terms of reiatsu, manages to cut Zaraki by focusing his reiatsu and sharpening it (Zaraki openly states: "keep that reiatsu sharpened").

Second, Byakuya has as much reiatsu/more than Zaraki's patched one, as stated by Ganju ("this guy... he's got as much reiatsu as that Kenpachi guy... he's even stronger!" look the chapter up).

Lastly, Zaraki, who lacks any skill whatsoever, can sharpen his reiatsu. So Byakuya, who is a master of skills, can do so as well, and therefore can cut Nnoitora even if we concede on your moon lojic that he is somehow vastly inferior to Nnoitora's reiatsu.

I'll admit he has many abilities, but so does Nnoitra.
:Haha:Haha:Haha I lol'd. This level of ignorance doesn't even deserve an answer.

Nnoitora is the ultimate ****ing definition of a one-trick pony.

Ummm...uhhhh...slash, swipe, and grow. :)
Nnoitora cannot regrow his head.
Keyword is former.
Keyword is 8th Espada. Nnoitora is a weakling. That's the start and end of any argument that attempts to make him superior to anyone. As I've quoted from the manga time and again: the Espada organization bases its ranking on killing ability, not power. Since Nnoitora rose through the ranks, his killing ability increased, but his power did not. Or at least, there's no canon proof to that effect... but apparently characters have hidden non-canon power levels now.

Nnoitra would have no problem beating the former unseated shinigami.
And Byakuya would have no problem beating Nnoitora, whose power did not increase since the time he was 8th Espada.

See what I did there?
Showed how ignorant you are.

We don't know that he was always six.
Now you are arguing semantics. How about this: We know Byakuya wasn't always captain, how about that makes him vastly inferior to Hitsugaya! :Haha

We know he is six. We know his fighting style is insanely superior to any shown so far. We have no reason to believe he was lower at any given time (we didn't have any reason to believe Nnoitora was lower ranked until we were shown it, so it applies to every Espada). You're just grasping at straws :).

I meant powerhouse as in raw strength and durability, not so much as multi-skilled.
Byakuya took a Getsuga to the face from Ogichi. How's that for raw strength and durability? He's a powerhouse. He's got the power, the stamina, and the endurance to withstand virtually every amount of damage - hell, he's got no problem moving very fast after fighting Ichigo for a prolonged period of time, suffering mass amounts of damage from Ogichi's Getsuga, AND getting a massive slash to the chest.

Maybe if they were on the same power tier, which they clearly aren't with him being the Fifth Espada and all and brushing off bankai attacks like they were nothing.
Grimmjow brushed off bankai attacks like nothing. FULL POWERED Bankai attacks only left him with a scratch.

Nnoitora was beating a half-dead horse, that's no feat. And he was beaten by Zaraki, who has no bankai, so he wasn't brushing off bankai attacks at any point.

So yeah, they aren't on the same power tier, Grimmjow is vastly superior and Byakuya could probably give Grimmjow a run for his money, him being such a powerhouse and everything.
Do I sense Nnoitra hating? First of all, stop stating his "former" rank as that has little to do with anything since everyone can have former ranks and advance. Second, tricks have nothing to do with it. He is simply on a whole other level.
Accusing me of hating a character is something I've weathered before, and repeatedly, so don't try to pull that card on me - it means you're out of arguments.

Nnoitora's former rank has a LOT to do with present. I'll start with quoting the manga AGAIN: The Espada are ranked by their killing ability, not power. Nnoitora was ranked 8th, so his power must've been quite low, and that's why his killing ability was low. So he increased his killing ability - but we've no proof that his power increased, considering his repeated references to his awesome abilities (hardest skin and underhanded methods are hardly a show of "power upgrade") which end up being nulled by someone sharpening their reiatsu just like every other proper fighter in the canon manga material.

Speed has little to do with it. Waving his scythe(s) could blow away the blades or his bankai couldn't even cut him, plus we have no idea of Nnoitra's speed and dodging ability in such a scenario.
:eek13: Speed has little to do with this? Speed has everything to do with a fight. The faster fighter holds the advantage, because they have more time to react and to attack.

Also, you have no evidence whatsoever that his scythes could blow away the blades - it's just speculation brought up from nowhere, seeing as no attack we've seen so far has been able to disperse Byakuya's bankai with the sole exception of an attack speed that can attack in an omnidirectional manner. Nnoitora does not have an omnidirectional attack nor does he have the speed to do so.

As for the bankai couldn't cut him, I find that statement distastefully ignorant. TEN shit gargling times stronger than Byakuya's basic attack, which is already powerful enough to cut Nnoitora due to reiatsu sharpening if nothing else, and you claim it cannot cut Nnotiora?

As for Nnoitora's speed, if he had any he'd have used it - especially after needing to actually dodge and shit.

He was manhandling Ichigo's bankai, the same bankai that was outclassing and outspeeding Byakuya. Enough said.
He was manhandling an exhausted, wounded, and depleted Ichigo's bankai. Enough said.

The 8th Espada stuff again? Seriously, the current (well former) 8th Espada could have beaten Byakuya through simple voodoo tricks.
Szayel could beat Byakuya? Oh, certainly... except his techniques require so much preparation Byakuya can just kill him without having to even resort to drastic measures like bankai.

And as for Nnoitora, that one-trick pony is so pathetic, seeing as he was the former 8th Espada. Being ranked lower and rising in ranks of an organization that is ranked by killing ability does not mean your power increased. Get my drift? I guess not, so I'll explain. The 3rd Espada of Nnoitora's generation is about as strong as the current 5th/6th or so, if her demonstration is any indication of her true power (and she kicked Nnoitora's ass). Nnoitora, being the former 8th, would be out of the ranks by now, except that his killing ability (not power) became greater and therefore he was ranked higher.

The same argument has been used for Aizen blocking Ichigo's bankai with a finger and we all know how right that turned out to be.
Yeah, Aizen blocked Ichigo's bankai when he was exhausted and depleted of reiatsu (he could barely stand). If all Aizen did was blocking Ichigo's bankai with a finger we'd have no reason to believe that Aizen is powerful. It's his other feats that show his power, not blocking a half-dead opponent's attack. My metaphors help in this case - if I beat the living shit out of Silvester Stallone after he went through a three-hour fight with Mr. T and is barely even standing up, that doesn't make me stronger than him.

Just because he is not worn out does not mean he can suddenly cut someone who is higher ranked than Grimmjow in mere bankai form.
Yes it does. If he is not worn out, and not depleted from reiatsu and stamina from fighting a real warrior and after taking insane amounts of damage, he would be able to cut Nnoitora - just like Zaraki managed to, and bankai Ichigo is superior to Zaraki.

Still, power assumptions based on ranking and opponents suggests that even fully charged he wouldn't be able to get a hit off of him, just like his first fight with Grimmjow.
:Haha My goodness. Vaizard bankai Ichigo was barely on Grimmjow's level. Vaizard bankai Ichigo is superior in terms of power to basic shikai Ichigo. Basic Shikai Ichigo was about one-handed Zaraki's level. One-handed Zaraki level was enough to cut through Nnoitora's skin.

Linear power progression. Nnoitora stands no chance. Fully charged, Ichigo would be manhandling unreleased Nnoitora, being a million times faster and all that shit. Released Nnoitora would have his ass handed right back to him by a Vaizard Bankai Ichigo - well, maybe not, given that he would have been regenerating like a freak and Ichigo's time would run out. But Ichigo would still outclass him, and that's enough evidence to demonstrate that Nnoitora is inferior to Grimmjow, and to Ichigo, and to Zaraki, and to Byakuya.

Fine, he didn't beat them. But he definitely beat Tousen (didn't look like he was acting, though it was PIS, just like Zomari's fight) and Komamura left shortly after bankai. And Zaraki was not having many problems with his eyepatch on against both of them.
He did not beat two captains. He also did not defeat Tousen in a contest of power, which would have been a testament to his strength. He beat Tousen through Tousen's stupidity, which is a valid way of winning but says nothing of a fighter's actual power.

He also did not get to fight with Komamura so we have no idea how he would fare against an opponent with more than three braincells and who relies on more than just his special ability to win, and to which Zarkai does not have the only counter.

As for "not having problems with both of them", none of them was fighting full power, so it's not any show of power either.

Former...former...former...former...former...
Sigh. Power does not increase with rank. Enough said.

This is a subjective matter so there will always be differing opinions and this will never be settled, but my arguments are at least based on canon and not secret power levels that defy canon and theories that have nothing to do with canon debating (like with Tousen and Nnoitra being weak because hew as the eighth a while ago).
This doesn't even warrant an answer. You've actually openly went against manga statements and canon material (ranks, for one).
At least we agree on something. Hitsugaya hate. :cm:
I don't hate Hitsugaya.

Reiatsu shaping, levels, and everything else is far from canon.
:Haha So Ichigo cutting Zaraki in their first encounter was purely plotkai, ESPECIALLY with all those statements about sharpening one's reiatsu and all that? Does your ignorance know no bounds?
He's not inferior is your whole argument when that itself needs to be proved. Bakudou can be broken, especially by stronger opponents, regardless if whether or not hey are actually stronger than the other person (as Hachi and Ken...whatever his name is demonstrated).
When did I ever say that Bakudo cannot be broken? My point is that Byakuya can stop all of Nnoitora's offensive by simply locking his limbs in Bakudo. So Nnoitora would break them eventually. It still leaves a window to attack and it still stops all his offensive abilities. Nnoitora's got nothing going for him :cm:.

Kubo probably would have Byakuya win, but the facts of hybridization and displayed power levels he is in between and other things conclude that he is stronger in all logical sense.
Nnoitora displayed an inferior power to Byakuya. Hybridization increase power, but we've no canon material to show just how much it increases power. Nnoitora is clearly a weakling.

Come now. Based on Ichigo's bankai form (the comparisons I am making are mostly on his fights) and Vaizard bankai form, the power difference is exponential.
:Haha You're using Ichigo as a comparison? Ichigo who wins through repeated plotkai? I won't even start on that... but I was answering your statement:

Only up to seven. Six was a VAIZARD bankai, which is supposedly infinitely more powerful than bankai.

Infinitely? Nope. It's just a power increase to some effect. How much exactly is unknown, and it's not infinitely more powerful than anyone.

Please stop with that. Repeating it enough will not make the argument better. Argumentum ad nauseam.
:musak: I will continue repeating the canon facts in your face until you admit them:

Nnoitora was 8th. Rising through the ranks of the Epsada requires higher killing ability, not higher power. Nnoitora's power did not increase from his times as 8th Espada. Grimmjow is stronger than Nnotiora based on fighting toe-to-toe with Ichigo's Vaizard bankai, which is supposedly INFINITELY more powerful than normal bankai, which in turn is ten times as powerful as shikai, which stalemated with Zaraki, who overpowered Nnoitora.

There, your moon lojic still makes my point stand. That's the usual case when I'm right.

Zaraki is the sole exception and has shown a pure power level above that of even Byakuya.
:Haha Do I sense a Zarak-tard? Yes, I do. Off your horse.

Zaraki is nowhere near stronger than Byakuya. At most he's as strong as he is. Byakuya is superior in every aspect - speed, abilities, bankai. The only aspect in which Zaraki may be superior is reiatsu, but having a load of power is pretty useless when you can't hit your opponent properly and when you do hit them, they can handle it easily.

Then don't be doing that here. :mad:
:rolleye09

I apologize I cannot read thirty pages of two sentence Byakuya predictions. [/HYPERBOLE]
Or, you could have just read the first reply to the thread. Here: http://forums.bleachportal.net/showpost.php?p=2492797&postcount=2 and seen the reasoning behind Byakuya beating the living shit out of Nnoitora. Added to it Nnoitora's rank and the fact his power did not increase since then (only his killing ability... at least, that's the canonical statement. Maybe his power increased... I'm certain you would love to believe that, but there's not evidence to that effect, based on the manga canon).
I responded to yours because yours was the most surprising since I usually agree with you on everything.
Then stop smoking that weed, and we'll start agreeing on the right logic again. :toocool:

You did it again...pl...ea..se...stop.

:eek13:

I'll continue doing it until I beat the terrible monsters of ignorance:

Nnoitora was 8th. Rising through the ranks of the Epsada requires higher killing ability, not higher power. Nnoitora's power did not increase from his times as 8th Espada. Grimmjow is stronger than Nnotiora based on fighting toe-to-toe with Ichigo's Vaizard bankai, which is supposedly INFINITELY more powerful than normal bankai, which in turn is ten times as powerful as shikai, which stalemated with Zaraki, who overpowered Nnoitora.

I had a whole book of response to that. But I don't want to be your enemy. Just your humble voice of reason. :cm:
But considering you're the voice of ignorance, dullness and slog, you're already my enemy. At least when it comes to kicking your ass in a debate where you're going against every canon manga fact in an effort to glorify Nnoitora :rolleye09

[Sin]

Byakuya wins... Nnoitra is good and great but I don't seeing him withstanding Byakuya's hundreds of millions of blades. He will simply get used to the hardness faster and not give Nnoitra a chance to release if he's smart... which we all know he is...

Even if he released Bya's bankai will still get used to him faster plus all the kidoh he knows, its over... sorry Byakuya takes this.

[captainmawaluigi]

Fighting arena is Hueco Mundo
Fillers don't count as evidence, if anyone posts filler as evidence they have to eat straight candy for five days straight until their teeth are sore and they look like Yachiru.

Discuss.

Nnorita is a cool character, however, he is the least complex least interesting espada or captain so far in the series. He is like Ken, however, Ken is cooler cuz he cant release his sword, thus his 'bankai' is overwhelming people with his normal power when hes not holding back. Nnorita is like that, just lamer. How could he even touch byakuya....seriously?!

Kuchki would just stand still as his bankai slices Nnorita, and if need be just use a kidou spell as a shield, that way he could use all of his bankai for offense, and if Nnorita somehow gets past, he would also have to dodge the kidou, then byakuya would shunpo...ya easy win

[SenpaiRetsu]

to restate my position, Byakuya wins this without even getting hit once. he's so much faster than Nnoitora that i can't see him landing a hit on him.

anywho at @Undying Nnoitora did increase his power, that's pretty clear.

here is numerous canon evidence to show his POWER increased not just his killing ability.

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000292/08.jpg

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000294/05.jpg

before he wielded a weapon only have as big as the current one, because his actually physical strength increased. and the scythes are made by him from his body, you saw this when he grew extra arms and they came out of his wrist. his weapon grew in proportion to his strength. this is shown quite clearly.

lastly he was able to block nel in her released form. clearly he is much stronger than his days as the 8th.

[KholdStare]

The trolling stops here. The members who have trolled have been informed and given their warnings. In the future instead of responding to the troll, simply PM me and I will deal with the person.

[Undying]

to restate my position, Byakuya wins this without even getting hit once. he's so much faster than Nnoitora that i can't see him landing a hit on him.
Good, we agree, now let's see what you added on and we'll put this discussion to rest, ok? I believe we all know that Byakuya is the winner :).

anywho at @Undying Nnoitora did increase his power, that's pretty clear.

here is numerous canon evidence to show his POWER increased not just his killing ability.

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000292/08.jpg

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000294/05.jpg

before he wielded a weapon only have as big as the current one, because his actually physical strength increased. and the scythes are made by him from his body, you saw this when he grew extra arms and they came out of his wrist. his weapon grew in proportion to his strength. this is shown quite clearly.

lastly he was able to block nel in her released form. clearly he is much stronger than his days as the 8th.
Errr... "numerous canonical statements"? I see one... and it's obvious Nnoitora wasn't talking about himself :p.

Anyway. A bigger weapon is no guarantee of increased power - there is most likely a marginal increase in physical strength, but really, that's hardly any evidence so as to any significant power increase - power as in reiatsu. Also, you ignored that we have no idea how really strong is released Neliel (and no, no discussion about that!) because we only saw her fight after she lost most of her powers and momentarily regained them, which may or may not reduced her overall power (I'm sorta leaning towards reduced, but it's really irrelevant). Thirdly, Nnoitora himself said that what separated them was technique, not power... and that is apparently what he increased.

Besides, Nnoitora who "blocked released Neliel" (more like, got his scythe broken by her) isn't necessarily stronger than she, he's just more skilled (as I said above, he himself said they were separated by skill, not power).

So in conclusion and no more posts from me on this subject, there is little evidence to show any significant increase in power on Nnoitora's side, and even if there is Nnoitora is nowhere near strong enough to pose a threat to Byakuya (Kendo Zaraki and SKY should have around the same basic destructive power, except that SKY is impossible to dodge n' all).

So to wrap dis shiet up, Byakuya wins yo. Let's let this thread die already. Please?

[captainmawaluigi]

Zaraki has the most reiatsu amongst the captains, but he has no control over it like his comrades, that's his thing.

Also, Yama-jii is the Captain COMMANDER, not a captain. Brigadier Generals aren't Generals and you don't refer to them such, so he's not included in the comparisons among the captains.

You said it yourself, Yama-jii is a captain. He is the 1st Captain of all the captains and thus the commander.

Anyway, you people enjoy making things up way to much, how can you honestly think Kuchiki cannot win?

Nnorita is just power....hes even lamer than Grimmjow.The only reason Grimm gave Ichigo any difficulties, was speed.

Guess what Kuchiki is stronger than Grimm and faster than Grimm, he is also stronger than Nnorita. You people think way to far into that whole STEEL SKIN theory. All its saying is, if they were captains, their shikai mode would act as their normal mode. So their shikai mode is their unreleased state. ITs not saying they cant get hurt, its just saying they walk around powered up, while captains walk around unpowered up.

2. Nnorita...how would he ever manage to touch Kuchiki? You saw the fastest espada, all he managed to do was cut his jacket. Nnorita, would slice and swing and curse, and he would get shot in the face via kidou from a distance.

Kuchiki has yet to show you his moves, he could easily Shunpo around and use kidou and his final release and murk most people. His only weakness, is a power speed type....which is what Ichigo is.

[Sin]

You said it yourself, Yama-jii is a captain. He is the 1st Captain of all the captains and thus the commander.

Anyway, you people enjoy making things up way to much, how can you honestly think Kuchiki cannot win?

Nnorita is just power....hes even lamer than Grimmjow.The only reason Grimm gave Ichigo any difficulties, was speed.

Guess what Kuchiki is stronger than Grimm and faster than Grimm, he is also stronger than Nnorita. You people think way to far into that whole STEEL SKIN theory. All its saying is, if they were captains, their shikai mode would act as their normal mode. So their shikai mode is their unreleased state. ITs not saying they cant get hurt, its just saying they walk around powered up, while captains walk around unpowered up.

2. Nnorita...how would he ever manage to touch Kuchiki? You saw the fastest espada, all he managed to do was cut his jacket. Nnorita, would slice and swing and curse, and he would get shot in the face via kidou from a distance.

Kuchiki has yet to show you his moves, he could easily Shunpo around and use kidou and his final release and murk most people. His only weakness, is a power speed type....which is what Ichigo is.
NO esca has it right, your the one who's apparently confused as to what his tittle is. Yamamoto is the General the rest are his captains. The first division isn't because he is the 1st in terms of strength or else second and third would be Shunsui and Ukitake.

For someone who claims that we love making stuff up... you just wen on a role there didn't you. The only reason why Zomari didn't kill him was because of the technique Yorouichi showed him and not because he was faster then Zomari.

And that whole released, unreleased state being like a shikai... wow. Your telling us we like to make things up :whatevah:.

[Undying]

You said it yourself, Yama-jii is a captain. He is the 1st Captain of all the captains and thus the commander.
Yam-Ji is captain commander and is captain of the first because of its administrative duties.

Anyway, you people enjoy making things up way to much, how can you honestly think Kuchiki cannot win?
Who's saying Byakuya can't win against Nnoitora? I'll pulverize them!

Nnorita is just power....hes even lamer than Grimmjow.The only reason Grimm gave Ichigo any difficulties, was speed.
No, the reason why Grimmjow gave Ichigo trouble was because he is actually a capable fighter. Nnoitora has a lot of weapons but is an idiot, as he proves by not dodging.

Guess what Kuchiki is stronger than Grimm and faster than Grimm,
lol Where did that come from? Grimmjow was keeping up with Bankai Ichigo, and Byakuya is slower than bankai Ichigo.
he is also stronger than Nnorita. You people think way to far into that whole STEEL SKIN theory. All its saying is, if they were captains, their shikai mode would act as their normal mode. So their shikai mode is their unreleased state. ITs not saying they cant get hurt, its just saying they walk around powered up, while captains walk around unpowered up.
Steel skin is just defense... it's got nothing to do with shikai. It's basically if every captain walked around using their reiatsu to create a Kenpachi-effect.

2. Nnorita...how would he ever manage to touch Kuchiki? You saw the fastest espada, all he managed to do was cut his jacket. Nnorita, would slice and swing and curse, and he would get shot in the face via kidou from a distance.
The fastest Sonido among the Espada, not the fastest Espada.

Kuchiki has yet to show you his moves, he could easily Shunpo around and use kidou and his final release and murk most people. His only weakness, is a power speed type....which is what Ichigo is.
Actually Byakuya showerd almost all his moves already, we know his bankai and we know his specialization.

[captainmawaluigi]

No, the reason why Grimmjow gave Ichigo trouble was because he is actually a capable fighter. Nnoitora has a lot of weapons but is an idiot, as he proves by not dodging.

True, its almost like spotting someone 15 points in a game of 21.


lol Where did that come from? Grimmjow was keeping up with Bankai Ichigo, and Byakuya is slower than bankai Ichigo.

Steel skin is just defense... it's got nothing to do with shikai. It's basically if every captain walked around using their reiatsu to create a Kenpachi-effect.

I guess Byakuya is slower than Bankai Ichigo, I thought shunpo=speed, because if that was the case, #7 is faster than Grimm, and Byakuya is faster than #7. With the powered up effect, thats what I meant to say, captains walk around sealed, and steel skin would be like captains walking around with their shikai power up at all times.


The fastest Sonido among the Espada, not the fastest Espada.


Actually Byakuya showerd almost all his moves already, we know his bankai and we know his specialization.

Well yeah we have seen his moves, what I mean though is he doesnt show us the extent, we have never seen his limit. Vs Ichigo he shunpoed away, vs Zomari....his jacket was ripped.

I know he can go out there and use bankai and kidou simeltaneously and effectively, hell, if Rukia can use dual incantations, Im sure he can use that as well as bankai at the same time, making for one hell of an effect.

[Esca]

I thought I should just, once again, add the fact that Grimmjow is faster than VB Ichigo. Happy debating? No? Okay, go back to what you were doing.

[smach]

I guess Byakuya is slower than Bankai Ichigo, I thought shunpo=speed, because if that was the case, #7 is faster than Grimm, and Byakuya is faster than #7. With the powered up effect, thats what I meant to say, captains walk around sealed, and steel skin would be like captains walking around with their shikai power up at all times.
Shikai does not make you this majestic: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/11/

Well yeah we have seen his moves, what I mean though is he doesnt show us the extent, we have never seen his limit. Vs Ichigo he shunpoed away, vs Zomari....his jacket was ripped.

I know he can go out there and use bankai and kidou simeltaneously and effectively, hell, if Rukia can use dual incantations, Im sure he can use that as well as bankai at the same time, making for one hell of an effect.Failure to fall to the ground like Ichigo does not grant him more power, at least not in the sense you're thinking. His strongest attack was nullified...do you really need more proof than that? As for simultaneously using bankai and kidou, just remember that you have to halt one thing while using the other.

[Jay3205]

True, its almost like spotting someone 15 points in a game of 21.
Nnoitora thought he was the strongest espada, hence the lead-to-your-own-demise arrogance.

I guess Byakuya is slower than Bankai Ichigo, I thought shunpo=speed, because if that was the case, #7 is faster than Grimm, and Byakuya is faster than #7. With the powered up effect, thats what I meant to say, captains walk around sealed, and steel skin would be like captains walking around with their shikai power up at all times.Byakuya is slower than Ichigo. He used a special trick to trick the opponent while he moved elsewhere. Afterimage = causing the opponent to look when place when you really moved to another place. Magicians do the same thing; it doesn't mean that the hand really is "faster than the eye".

Also, steel skin =/= shikai. If it was, then it would have to mean shikai Byakuya = shikai Ichigo = unreleased Grimmjaw for Byakuya to win... which isn't the case.

Well yeah we have seen his moves, what I mean though is he doesnt show us the extent, we have never seen his limit. Vs Ichigo he shunpoed away, vs Zomari....his jacket was ripped.

I know he can go out there and use bankai and kidou simeltaneously and effectively, hell, if Rukia can use dual incantations, Im sure he can use that as well as bankai at the same time, making for one hell of an effect.Byakuya was basically at his limit. His final technique was beaten, he shows no hint of having stronger attacks, and he admitted to not having the energy to swing his sword around more. If he did have a significant amount of energy left, he wouldn't have gotten his technique beat, as he could've just put the rest of his power into it to not lose.

Also, Byakuya has never shown he can attack with kidou & bankai simultaneously. Even if he can, it would cut the speed of his bankai in half due to utilizing his hands for kidou.

[SenpaiRetsu]

Nnoitora thought he was the strongest espada, hence the lead-to-your-own-demise arrogance.

Byakuya is slower than Ichigo. He used a special trick to trick the opponent while he moved elsewhere. Afterimage = causing the opponent to look when place when you really moved to another place. Magicians do the same thing; it doesn't mean that the hand really is "faster than the eye".

Also, steel skin =/= shikai. If it was, then it would have to mean shikai Byakuya = shikai Ichigo = unreleased Grimmjaw for Byakuya to win... which isn'