Nnoitra vs Byakuya [Manga Spoilers]

[Seff vi Britannia]

Fighting arena is Hueco Mundo
Fillers don't count as evidence, if anyone posts filler as evidence they have to eat straight candy for five days straight until their teeth are sore and they look like Yachiru.

Discuss.

[Undying]

You know dia will chomp your throat off, don't you?

Anyway, from what Nnoitora demonstrated so far in his fight with Zaraki, I'll go with Byakuya.

Nnoitora hasn't demonstrated great flexibility in combat, relying on his enemy to get in close.

His Hierro, though supposedly "toughest", isn't much use as Byakuya can simply sharpen his reiatsu to the point it will cut him regardless (much like Ichigo and Zaraki, Ichigo did not have the power to fight Zaraki, but he sharpened his reiatsu to the point it was able to cut Zaraki despite his "armor").

Also, continuing from the flexibility argument, anyone who read Drizzt series know that the more arms you have, the more you stick to common fighting techniques. In fact, in "Passage to Dawn", Drizzt battles a demon with 6 arms (ooh, awesome :o direct copy? lulz), He discovers that the demon - I forgot the name - relies more on simple numbers than any complex swordfighting techniques, due to the fact it's very difficult to control 6 different swords and arms. Now, that demon had six SWORDS, not gigantic scythes, which would make swinging at close range a rather difficult situation, and even weaving them in any effective manner would be very hard.

Now, Byakuya, as a speed specialist and a long-range fighter, can dodge rather well, and also does not need to concern himself with 6 arms, since he will be well out of reach and due to his far smaller frame and faster movements (and no, Zaraki can't move faster than Byakuya - reflexes included - because Byakuya is smaller, thus making his reaction time shorter. Simple anatomy, the nerves are shorter and the signal from the brain to the muscle arrives faster as it needs to go through shorter distance, as well as a smaller muscle mass to move at any given time) will be able to effectively dodge the scythes at any range.

So then, without being able to effectively damage him with his medium-range attacks, Nnoitora will turn to Cero. No, Byakuya cannot (I think) turn a Cero away with a hand. He doesn't have to. Unlike Retardpachi, he will simply sidestep the attack and walk beside it like a king. Simple and yet somehow... so much more impressive than showing you're retarded enough to take any hit head on (no matter if it might have had a poison or a special technique in it that would kill you, the important thing is you showed off, hooray you, good luck pushing up the daisies). Not to mention this is far more effective; while Nnoitora is occupied firing his long beam from his overly long tongue, Mr. Byakuya "I can move pretty fast" Kuchiki can just shunpo in and take off said tongue.

Simple, impressive, and rather effective.

I covered both released and unreleased forms for Nnoitora here, and didn't even consider shikai (which would most like be ineffective, unless it can be sharpened enough, which I'm sure a sword would be much more effective at), and didn't bring in bankai because Nnoitora cannot effectively block it.

While it won't be immediate, one-hit-and-you-are-dead ownage, Byakuya certainly holds all advantages from demonstrated feats, speed included.

Still, seeing as Nnoitora hadn't demonstrated any specific speed feats yet and haven't battled a fast character who could use his speed (I don't count Ichigo because Ichigo was half dead), I leave my full vote open. Possible Nnoitora is fast enough to battle Byakuya on his own terms.

Although still, bankai would be a very painful game for Nnoitora, as Byakuya's range and general offensive AoE are greater (although Nnoitora packs a serious punch, no doubt about it).

Plus, binding Kido is also a rather effective way to stop Nnoitora long enough to relieve him of his hole - no, not the lower one - along with a very important and probably not-so-simple to regenerate organ, aka, the Head.

Speaking of which, I believe that Nnoitora's regeneration will be brought up as a possible argument in this fight, but as Ryuuken said, in order to beat someone who can regenerate, you need to kill them before they start regenerating (although tbh, instant regeneration should be, well, instant. Attack, and he's already healing, but since Nnoitora's regeneration takes time - demonstrated and thus making it not instant - Byakuya can effectively attack in those intervals).

So from demonstrated feats, Byakuya. If Nnoitora starts showing off speed-based moves (doubtful, I'd say he relies too much on his armor and regenerative capabilities, as well as the fact he actually has six arms, so he confuses his opponents. However, it's innocent until proven guilty), maybe the vote will change, but considering that Byakuya has more than just speed up his sleeve, we'll have to see exactly where do Rich-boy's limits are.

[Seff vi Britannia]

You know dia will chomp your throat off, don't you?


It was her who inspired me to make this thread. : P

I'm going to withold my opinions until i can see what other people come up with, though your post was suitably awesome.

I dare say that Nnoitra's Hierro and Regenration will be his key weapons in this fight.

[diamondedge]

It was her who inspired me to make this thread. : P
I'm going to withold my opinions until i can see what other people come up with, though your post was suitably awesome.
I dare say that Nnoitra's Hierro and Regenration will be his key weapons in this fight.
Thank you Seff, you flatter me.

Now of course great minds think alike and Undying has pretty much summed up my idea about the whole fight, but I'll throw in my two cents just to give you more to reply later.

Probably the most common and the most idiotic argument that has already been brought up in other topics today is that Byakuya can't take damage that Nnoitora inflicts, or block a cero with his hand. Of course he can't Byakuya isn't a tank built to absorb damage, because he doesn't have to - what he excels at is great speed, allowing to dodge and attack really fast, while that being only small tip of his overall abilities.

Now, what Nnoitora has got in his arzenal:

6 arms and slashing: Without any doubt powerful, you can possess all strength in the world if you are too slow to hit. Swinging a pole around can not by any means circumstances be faster than someone who excels at speed and , yet alone swinging 6 poles can make a difference against a speed specialist who is able to:

The distance Byakuya's shunpo can cover is WAY longer than Nnoitora's weapon, as Byakuya can move some heavy distance with his regular shunpo, as seen when he was trying using shunpo from the top of a building to move himself to the gorun (vs Renji, ch 140) I don't know the exact distance of that shunpo, but it goes way beyond few meters, without a doubt, and way beyond the length of Nnoitora's weapons.

Nnoitora has shown NO great speed in his attacks, even with his small body build it is impossible to be agile if your attacks are slow, but strong slashing. Your body has to work together with your hands/feet, and fast fighter will not be able to hit at the most destructive force, but it will allow him to hit multiple times, which has the same effect, since both speed and strength are factor in force a slash will hit. However, to deny that the one who is in better position to avoid damage and attack faster and therefore has the first opportunity to gain the upper hand, has the advantage can not be denied. You can have all the power in the world if you are too slow to place a hit. So far, Nnoitora's slashes have not been the kind of slashes to hit at great speed, but to hit with great strength, relying on strength of the slash above all else.

But it gets even better - Bykauya is not a CQC (although he has handled himself quite well in close swordsmanship encounter), he can keep his enemy at distance with his tactical approach and still inflict damage.

Kidou, Shunpo and his Senbonzakura. SKY, the most basic form of his bankai would be in my opinion, the most effective against Nnoitora, as it allows his to hit his opponent repeatedly and quickly switch to defense if needed.

Nnoitora has been shown quote vulnerable as a sword slash can easily and pretty much defenseless against any AoE attack, a cero that would have radius of 360 degree does not exist to be "effective" defense, which means that Nnoitora has no chances of deflecting Senbonzakura.

Move. Attack. Repeat. If you are slower you can't hit me, but I can hit you. SKY allows quick change from attack to defense form, and SKY was still shown that it can be a good defense, even against a slash of the sword.

I have brought up similar issue in another battle thread, I'm sure that a single wave of SKY would do very little, but the power of Senbonzakura that the attacks concentrate on attacking several times, and one attack from SKY was still enough to obliterate a building, and that is one of attack that SKY can chain. Not initially, but eventually, SKY would break through. Termites will eat away a tree if there is enough of them, the tree will be destroyed even though it's painfully obvious that an insect's jaw is not stronger than a piece of wood.

If I pour you with bucket of water you won't be affected much - but if I can drown you in that bucket if I hold you head in long enough, which I believe would be the key point of this fight.

But then again I can't forget Nnoitora's instant regeneration. If Nnoitora can renegerate faster than SKY can cut, that would make him immortal, that would make him perfect, unbeatable and the strongest of all Espada, as no power is greater than immortality. No other weapon and the fact Zaraki hit him like, twice in few minutes doesn't prove or disapprove his regeneration speed but I made a point above - SKY is weapon with fastest attack rate we have seen in Bleach ( excluding bankai Ichigo), but he can do it at range, he can control speed, direction, attack rate. The termites would slowly eat the armor as they eat the wood until they reach the flesh.

After all, perfection is something that does not exist in Bleach vocabulary.

And if you try proving SKY can't pierce his armor - you can't because speed has equal relevance to force and damage inflicted than mass does. And his armor has already cracked, by regular sword slash.

Cero is a bit different matter here - Byakuya can most likely not take it bare handed and smile, I dont think it can be as effectively dodged as his slashing, but Byakuya can defend himself.

Byakuya used Kidou barried to shield himself - 81 without initialization is highest mastery of kidou we have seen in Bleach, save for Aizen, who is the strongest character in Bleach (and No I'm not trying to say Byakuya is in Aizen's league, far from itbut gap between 93 and 81 is not even remotely similar to gap of Aizen and Nnoitora) He used similar kidou whose number was not reveled, but the fact remains he has shown to use SKY to shield himself from physical attacks, as well as his kidou for defense against physical and mystic mumbo jumbo based attacks. And in all cases he used these defenses, he remained unharmed. He can hold of a power of his own bankai with kidou, he is getting his ass served by someone who doesn't even have bankai, so yeah, you get the picture.

As for the last point - as I said in previous topics I do think Nnoitora would digest a whole lot of SKY before going down - but he has been shown to be vulnerable and to expose someone's weakness and find holes is what Byakuya is good at.
SKY alone would be sufficient to get the job done.

But then again, I haven't even taken loads of other Byakuya's abilities into consideration - there is binding spell, there is disoriental spell, there is Hakkuteiken, and Senkei, but it would IMO not be needed, except maybe 6 rod prison to make a job even easier.

Byakuya wins, it's obvious it would take some, but in all honesty, I don't see him struggling. Skillz > Berserker Mode, always.

[Seff vi Britannia]

But SKY is composed of thousands of tiny blades.
Take one petal from senbonsakura and try and scratch Nnoitra's hierro with it, it won't cut it.

Now i'm going to get ten of these petals, throw them over Nnoitra, and see if he gets scratched. He won't, because the sharpness hasn't increased.

Now if we consider the fact that even if SKY breaches Hierro and scores a direct hit, the result will be a lot of scratches and slight cuts. It didn't stop Ichigo from fighting, and it didn't stop Renji from getting up again. What's to say that it will stop Nnoitra, who is *probably* stronger than the former, and *definately* stronger than the latter?

: )

[diamondedge]

But SKY is composed of thousands of tiny blades.
Take one petal from senbonsakura and try and scratch Nnoitra's hierro with it, it won't cut it.
Why even make such comparison, why SKY is millions of blades that can't be counted?

When have we seen Byakuya using a single petal or ten of them? Lemme think. Never. It0s like firing one bullet with minugun. Of course it's not gonna butcher anyone with 1 bullet.

Now if we consider the fact that even if SKY breaches Hierro and scores a direct hit, the result will be a lot of scratches and slight cuts. It didn't stop Ichigo from fighting, and it didn't stop Renji from getting up again. What's to say that it will stop Nnoitra, who is *probably* stronger than the former, and *definately* stronger than the latter?

Hierro isn't something that can be continuously used like SKY, it relies on AoE like SKY, only SKY is faster, controllable even after initial order and uber fast. I covered that in my initial post.

Renji and Ichigo got hit with it ONCE. I have already explained the theory of being hit once in post because I was suspecting you will bring that up, so go find and read. But even then, hitting once was enough to make Zomari beg - after he used shield to protect himself.

But I named his kidou as primary form of defense against cero. Cero = reiatsu, Kidou = reiatsu, unless Nnoitora's reiatsu is like 3 times Byakuya's (and it's not since Kenpachi didn't kneel in awe of his spiritual pressure), it is more than sufficient defense.

Please read everything I write.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Why even make such comparison, why SKY is millions of blades that can't be counted?

When have we seen Byakuya using a single petal or ten of them? Lemme think. Never. It0s like firing one bullet with minugun. Of course it's not gonna butcher anyone with 1 bullet.


Because 10 was easier to type than 10 ^5. The point was that SKY can't penetrate Hierro, because no matter how many there are, the sharpness does not increase. : )


Hierro isn't something that can be continuously used like SKY, it relies on AoE like SKY, only SKY is faster, controllable even after initial order and uber fast. I covered that in my initial post.


I'm confused. Hierro is AOE? : /


Renji and Ichigo got hit with it ONCE. I have already explained the theory of being hit once in post because I was suspecting you will bring that up, so go find and read. But even then, hitting once was enough to make Zomari beg - after he used shield to protect himself.


Mhm, i noticed it was once. But as you said, they didn't get hit by 1 or 10 petals, did they? Again, the point is; SKY didn't inflict much damage, and as you say, Nnoitra is a "tank", built to take damage.


But I named his kidou as primary form of defense against cero. Cero = reiatsu, Kidou = reiatsu, unless Nnoitora's reiatsu is like 3 times Byakuya's (and it's not since Kenpachi didn't kneel in awe of his spiritual pressure), it is more than sufficient defense.


A good point, but i didn't mention anything about cero?


Please read everything I write.

Sixth post and it's already getting uncivil :sad

[diamondedge]

Because 10 was easier to type than 10 ^5. The point was that SKY can't penetrate Hierro, because no matter how many there are, the sharpness does not increase. : )
Zaraki's sword was able to penetrate it.

I stated above, SKY won't do wonders in ONE attack, because that's not how it's meant to be used.
it did not inflict major damage upon single impact, but damage WAS inflicted but you seem to ignore the fact that Byakuya can attack as many times as he wants.
And Nnitora can't dodge, because he is not fast enough, so damage is inevitable.

1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1=10, which is same as 5+5=10 it just takes longer to calculate.

I'm confused. Hierro is AOE? : /
Miss typed.

Mhm, i noticed it was once. But as you said, they didn't get hit by 1 or 10 petals, did they? Again, the point is; SKY didn't inflict much damage, and as you say, Nnoitra is a "tank", built to take damage.
Refer to the above. :)

[Habanero]

I don't think the petals could pierce Noitoira's skin. Bya using his bankai on Noitoira would probably be like throwing a crazy bunch of flowers at him.

Nothing suggests that Byakuya is faster than Noitoira either, so it would all boil down to swordplay, which would result in Bya's total defeat. There's just no way he could avoid getting hit, and unlike certain someone, he can't really handle it.

Only debatable part is whether Bya's petals can breach Noitoira's hierro or not. If they can't, Byakuya is in for asswhoopage of a lifetime. If they can, he might stand a chance. :p

[diamondedge]

I don't think the petals could pierce Noitoira's skin. Bya using his bankai on Noitoira would probably be like throwing a crazy bunch of flowers at him.
Nnoitora got hit to the point where he had to regenerate. A regular sword slas, To suggest bankai power can't do the same is well, stupid.

I explained it in the first post why speed has equal importance in force than strength, and you can't defy basic laws of physics.

Nothing suggests that Byakuya is faster than Noitoira either, so it would all boil down to swordplay, which would result in Bya's total defeat. There's just no way he could avoid getting hit, and unlike certain someone, he can't really handle it.
1.) Get real, Byakuya is speed specialist, while Nnoitora is a tank. These two don't mix.
2.) You can't hit me if I'm faster than you, FACT.
3.) You can't hit me if I nail you to the ground, either.

Only debatable part is whether Bya's petals can breach Noitoira's hierro or not. If they can't, Byakuya is in for asswhoopage of a lifetime. If they can, he might stand a chance. :p
Lol, no. Senkei, Hakkuteiken is still on the table, and Senkei is form concentrated solely on attack. I've said why SKY is sufficient to pierce his skin, feel free to say that more strength and slow speed does more damage than fast speed and little strength. If you do, you are gravely mistaken.

[Habanero]

Nnoitora got hit to the point where he had to regenerate. A regular sword slas, To suggest bankai power can't do the same is well, stupid.

It was no regular slash though. Zaraki is quite the powerhouse and it took him some effort to get his sword to sink in. Bankai power can do it, but not probable when it's divided into millions of petals. If one can't make a cut, a million more won't make a difference.

1.) Get real, Byakuya is speed specialist, while Nnoitora is a tank. These two don't mix.
2.) You can't hit me if I'm faster than you, FACT.
3.) You can't hit me if I nail you to the ground, either.

1.)Anyone with a lot of power is fast in Bleach. Being in the same "speed neighbourhood" already guarantees you won't get hit easily. In Bleach being powerful and fast mix very well.
2.)I can easily hit you unless you are a LOT faster than I am. That's a FACT.
3.)Well, that's true, but I don't quite see the relevance... :rolleye09

Lol, no. Senkei, Hakkuteiken is still on the table, and Senkei is form concentrated solely on attack.

Like I said, if it comes to swordplay, Byakuya is wasted.

I've said why SKY is sufficient to pierce his skin, feel free to say that more strength and slow speed does more damage than fast speed and little strength. If you do, you are gravely mistaken.

No, you've tried to reason why it should be sufficient, but the truth is, you as well as I, have no freakin' clue about it. Also, depending on the mass a slow object can well deal more damage than a fast one. So, actually you are gravely mistaken. :winking56

F=ma, that's physics for ya :p

[Zanga]

I agree that regular SKY can not or will have an extremely hard timing breaching a released Noitra's skin, however, I believe Senkei SKY can.

I believe that because all the blades compiling together into actual swords should be sharp enough. Remember there aren't actual mini blades, they're mini swords made of SPIRIT power. And several hundreds of the there tiny spirit blades combine together making more sharper swords that SHOULD be able to pierce Nnoitra.

Then there's Hakutein.

Then again Byakuya is too pompous to actually bring out Senkei, so ...

[diamondedge]

It was no regular slash though. Zaraki is quite the powerhouse and it took him some effort to get his sword to sink in. Bankai power can do it, but not probable when it's divided into millions of petals. If one can't make a cut, a million more won't make a difference.
1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = 10
5+5=10.

GG.

If I add 1 by one instead of 5 and 5, it doesn't make a difference?
NO result is the same, it just takes more time.

Prove it that Zaraki's slash is no ordinary slash, and that his slash is stronger than bankai force.
Chapter and page please.

1.)Anyone with a lot of power is fast in Bleach. Being in the same "speed neighbourhood" already guarantees you won't get hit easily. In Bleach being powerful and fast mix very well.
2.)I can easily hit you unless you are a LOT faster than I am. That's a FACT.
3.)Well, that's true, but I don't quite see the relevance... :rolleye09
1.) Zaraki is nowhere near fast In fact, did he even more the entire fight? GZ, you've just said Zaraki is weak and that Byakuya is strong.
You can't t prove that everyone is fast as there have been only few characters who rely on their speed above all else. And the fact that more powerfull you are the more skills you have in all areas is negated, Espada ranking being prime example.
2.) Byakuya IS a lot faster.
3.) Six rod prison. :rolleye09

And you've just admitted it would work.

Like I said, if it comes to swordplay, Byakuya is wasted.

Manga scan that shows Byakuya can't fight with regular sword, and that he is any worse in it than anyone else please.


No, you've tried to reason why it should be sufficient, but the truth is, you as well as I, have no freakin' clue about it. Also, depending on the mass a slow object can well deal more damage than a fast one. So, actually you are gravely mistaken.
Actually you fail to bring the correct arguments as mass doesn't make a difference here, because a sword doesn't weigh 100kgs. Also, you can't prove Zaraki's sword weighs more than million blades combined, therefore the argument of whoever has the greater mass is completely invalid. GG.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Zaraki's sword was able to penetrate it.

I stated above, SKY won't do wonders in ONE attack, because that's not how it's meant to be used.
it did not inflict major damage upon single impact, but damage WAS inflicted but you seem to ignore the fact that Byakuya can attack as many times as he wants.
And Nnitora can't dodge, because he is not fast enough, so damage is inevitable.

Miss typed.




But we're still assuming SKY can penetrate Hierro.

And could you please correct your miss-typage and say what you intended too, i'm interested to hear it. : )

[Icestorm]

Im not even going to comment.. the core of this debate is still exactly like Kenpachi vs Byakuya. Its brute strength vs speed. There is no point to this one.

[diamondedge]

Was replying to several paragraphs at one time, meant to say Cero is AoE, but it had no relevance to the subject.

@Ice: No actually, it's skill vs berserker mode. There are people that actually believe the rock would take down jet li.

[Icestorm]

If you look at the core of both of those fighters skills it is actually speed vs strength. Whether he has more skill with that speed is a factor.. but I didnt say they were equal amounts of either did I? But yes one relies on speed and the other strength.. not to say that either of them dont have strength or speed.. just that is their core power.

[Habanero]

1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = 10
5+5=10.

GG.

If I add 1 by one instead of 5 and 5, it doesn't make a difference?
NO result is the same, it just takes more time.

/facepalm

you can't get through a steeldoor using a toothpick. not with one, not with a billion, not in all eternity. You're gonna need something more durable.

Thus, if one petal does not make a cut, a million more won't change that.

Prove it that Zaraki's slash is no ordinary slash, and that his slash is stronger than bankai force.

It was a power-packed slash, but by no means stronger than bankai, but a lot stronger than bankai power divided by a million. Analogy starting to sink in perhaps...?

1.) Zaraki is nowhere near fast In fact, did he even more the entire fight? GZ, you've just said Zaraki is weak and that Byakuya is strong.
You can't t prove that everyone is fast as there have been only few characters who rely on their speed above all else. And the fact that more powerfull you are the more skills you have in all areas is negated, Espada ranking being prime example.
2.) Byakuya IS a lot faster.
3.) Six rod prison. :rolleye09

1.)That's your opinion. With no evidence to back it up I might add.
There are no great differences in speed between characters of similar powerlevel, unless the abilities they use have an effect on that, like Ichigo's bankai. When powerlevel in fights go up a notch, speed follows. As simple as that.
2.)You have absolutely no way of knowing that.
3.)I'd just love to see what happens if someone tried that on Kenpachi :Haha

Manga scan that shows Byakuya can't fight with regular sword, and that he is any worse in it than anyone else please.

Euhm... You're being ridiculous now. Of course he can fight well with a sword. So does Kenpachi. You probably know how that's going for him. You just can't avoid getting hit against a guy who has 6 arms, unless you're a hell of a lot faster, which I doubt Byakuya is.


Actually you fail to bring the correct arguments as mass doesn't make a difference here, because a sword doesn't weigh 100kgs. Also, you can't prove Zaraki's sword weighs more than million blades combined, therefore the argument of whoever has the greater mass is completely invalid. GG.

Ah, you were still talking that numeric nonsense... You kinda lost me there :rolleye09

Im not even going to comment.. the core of this debate is still exactly like Kenpachi vs Byakuya. Its brute strength vs speed. There is no point to this one.

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm stirring the pot just to make Byakutards boil. There's one of them who has lately become far too arrogant for her own good :redbiggri

Of course it's fitting for 6th div. and all, but the "I've made a post in this thread and everything I say is canon and critisizing me is foolish and arrogant" -attitude kinda pisses me off :rolleye09

[Night Prowler]

Bya easierly, the only reason why Kenpachi hasn't won yet cause he doesnt have a Bankai, if you look at the recent Captain V Espanda fights both of the captains went Bankai to gain more power and to win.

Also Byakuya's petals are sharp enough to penetrate Nnotoria's skin, its simply physics that something with a sharper edge is able to penetrate something easier than something with a more blunt edge AKA Zakari's sword, we all know what bad condition that is in, but he can still cut up Nnotoria's skin.

Another thing we should all take into account is Bya's personailty, he won't mess around with this, he's about speed and just does what is needed to win the battle in the quickest time even if its injuring himself. He'll most likely go into Bankai before Nnot will be able to release and kill him straight off, not that it will make much of a difference if Nnot releases, it's his attack power that increases not his Speed or Defence.

Also Nnot's cero was slow enough for Zakari to be able to get a hand onto it, imagine how much of an opening it would give Byakuya, he'd just dodge it and cause a mass amount of damage.

[Zanga]

Noitra's cero slow? Where did you pull that from?


Zaraki just pushed it aside. I don't see how that's slow. Zaraki's not as weak as you make him out to be =/ He was able to see the cero and used his reflexes. We know he has them, remember his fight with Tousen. He was able to dodge most of his attacks the SECOND he felt the blade.

You're just simply hating on Zaraki.

[smach]

Im not even going to comment.. the core of this debate is still exactly like Kenpachi vs Byakuya. Its brute strength vs speed. There is no point to this one.for me it's about whether or not byakuya n sebonzakura can cut through a strong espada's hierro. the scientist had low defense, n the pumpkin was way too arrogant for his own good. but when it comes to 6th, his abilities pack more punch n his defense gets a boost from his release. and even though 5th's release only increases his attack power, his defense seems to be pretty reliable from the get-go.

[Sendivoge]

Bya easierly, the only reason why Kenpachi hasn't won yet cause he doesnt have a Bankai, if you look at the recent Captain V Espanda fights both of the captains went Bankai to gain more power and to win.
Also Byakuya's petals are sharp enough to penetrate Nnotoria's skin, its simply physics that something with a sharper edge is able to penetrate something easier than something with a more blunt edge AKA Zakari's sword, we all know what bad condition that is in, but he can still cut up Nnotoria's skin.

Another thing we should all take into account is Bya's personailty, he won't mess around with this, he's about speed and just does what is needed to win the battle in the quickest time even if its injuring himself. He'll most likely go into Bankai before Nnot will be able to release and kill him straight off, not that it will make much of a difference if Nnot releases, it's his attack power that increases not his Speed or Defence.
I believe the difference in physical sharpness of blades used by captain level shinigami is probably neglegable, relying more on the spiritual "sharpness" (pressure) of the blade itself and (if cutting is possible, then also) the force applied to it. Zaraki has trouble initially cutting Nnoitra, who claims his hierro is the strongest of all espada.

While Kenpachi's zanpakutou may appear to be blunt, i believe it to be quite the opposite in terms of spiritual pressure. I don't know how people influence the spiritual sharpness of their zanpakutou during a fight, as i only remember it being done by Kenpachi and Ichigo thus far. To me, it would be a reasonable theory that the sharpness of their zanpakutou's, which are in a permanent state of shikai, can be influenced by their incredible levels of reiatsu. If there's somewhere it's actually explained, i need to know.

With a skin of such immense spiritual pressure, i very much doubt Nnoitra could be penetrated simply by Byakuya's petals. I think for Byakuya to actually penetrate that hierro, he would need to at least be using senkei (if not shukei, assuming even shukei would be enough). We know that by compressing the blades into individual swords, it increases the killing ability.

When i think spiritual pressure, i think Zaraki Kenpachi.

[diamondedge]

you can't get through a steeldoor using a toothpick. not with one, not with a billion, not in all eternity. You're gonna need something more durable.

Thus, if one petal does not make a cut, a million more won't change that.
SKY is a blade, just smaller one, it's not a piece of paper for that faulty logic of yours to apply.

1.)That's your opinion. With no evidence to back it up I might add.
There are no great differences in speed between characters of similar powerlevel, unless the abilities they use have an effect on that, like Ichigo's bankai. When powerlevel in fights go up a notch, speed follows. As simple as that.
2.)You have absolutely no way of knowing that.
3.)I'd just love to see what happens if someone tried that on Kenpachi :Haha

1.) I do. ONE scan that shows Zaraki can even do shunpo, or any other high speed movement. Fee free to re read all fights they had.
2.) Refer to the above.
3.) When has anyone broken out of six rod prison? Oh yeah, never.

Euhm... You're being ridiculous now. Of course he can fight well with a sword. So does Kenpachi. You probably know how that's going for him. You just can't avoid getting hit against a guy who has 6 arms, unless you're a hell of a lot faster, which I doubt Byakuya is.
6 arms can never be faster than someone free of any burdens, especially not swinging a pole in his hand.

Byakuya avoided attacks of fastest Espada. Manga scan that shows Nnoitora is on par on faster with Zomari's speed please.
I can point you to chapter 300-302.

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm stirring the pot just to make Byakutards boil. There's one of them who has lately become far too arrogant for her own good :redbiggri

:)
Don't treat me like an idiot if I can defend my own point of view, and you can't.

Of course it's fitting for 6th div. and all, but the "I've made a post in this thread and everything I say is canon and critisizing me is foolish and arrogant" -attitude kinda pisses me off :rolleye09
What pisses me off are the people who have no idea of the matter but continiue to post just o piss people off. It makes you a lot better than us who are supposedly arrogant. I always post in the same matter, BTW. Ever since I joined, which was like, a year ago. :whatevah:

[smach]

I believe the difference in physical sharpness of blades used by captain level shinigami is probably neglegable, relying more on the spiritual "sharpness" (pressure) of the blade itself and (if cutting is possible, then also) the force applied to it. Zaraki has trouble initially cutting Nnoitra, who claims his hierro is the strongest of all espada.

While Kenpachi's zanpakutou may appear to be blunt, i believe it to be quite the opposite in terms of spiritual pressure. I don't know how people influence the spiritual sharpness of their zanpakutou during a fight, as i only remember it being done by Kenpachi and Ichigo thus far. To me, it would be a reasonable theory that the sharpness of their zanpakutou's, which are in a permanent state of shikai, can be influenced by their incredible levels of reiatsu. If there's somewhere it's actually explained, i need to know.

With a skin of such immense spiritual pressure, i very much doubt Nnoitra could be penetrated simply by Byakuya's petals. I think for Byakuya to actually penetrate that hierro, he would need to at least be using senkei (if not shukei, assuming even shukei would be enough). We know that by compressing the blades into individual swords, it increases the killing ability.

When i think spiritual pressure, i think Zaraki Kenpachi.spiritual pressure n resolve are kinda related when it comes to bleach. it's prolly coz you need to be determined to make your sword stronger. but if your reiatsu n brute strength are at zaraki's level then resolve isn't rlly an issue anymore. moreover, IMO his sword has more of a jagged edge to it, which doesn't mean it's blunt.

about senkei, i doubt the attack power vastly increases compared to his sealed form. so if ichigo could handle it with his sword, but 6th n up are impenetrable by normal TZ, how is byakuya going to penetrate using senkei? hakuteiken - his last resort - is the only attack i can think of that would penetrate noitora. n judging from last time, it seems like a one-shot technique...so he's only got one chance to penetrate noitora.

[diamondedge]

about senkei, i doubt the attack power vastly increases compared to his sealed form. so if ichigo could handle it with his sword, but 6th n up are impenetrable by normal TZ, how is byakuya going to penetrate using senkei? hakuteiken - his last resort - is the only attack i can think of that would penetrate noitora. n judging from last time, it seems like a one-shot technique...so he's only got one chance to penetrate noitora.

Then, why is Zaraki, whose blade was destroyed by Ichigo's shikai, can handle Nnoitora, who is stronger than Grimmjow, and someone like full jacked Ichigo can't touch right now? Zaraki's spiritual force was equal on both times - because Zaraki can't control his spirit force.

As for second point, Byakuya clearly stated than killing power increases. Bankai = at least fife times of power of shikai, which is more power than the one of unrleased blade more power than ordinary sword. Senkei should have some pretty insane multiplier if you compare it to unreleased sword.

[Sendivoge]

spiritual pressure n resolve are kinda related when it comes to bleach. it's prolly coz you need to be determined to make your sword stronger. but if your reiatsu n brute strength are at zaraki's level then resolve isn't rlly an issue anymore. moreover, IMO his sword has more of a jagged edge to it, which doesn't mean it's blunt.

I don't know if this is a function limited to permanent shikai weapons who's owners have large amounts of free flowing reiatsu. Zaraki telling ichigo not to relax and lose the "sharpened spiritual pressure" might be an indication of this.

The fact that Kenpachi uses the statement "At the very least... dent this sword just a little tiny bit" towards someone he considers to be of no challenge, leads me to believe that the "jagged edge" can be further damaged through regular battle of a certain achievable standard. A zanpakutou that has a physical appearance of a blunt and worn down weapon goes well with zaraki's attempt at limiting himself. But like i said, i think physical sharpness probably plays an infinitesimal role in the world of spiritual pressure, especially with a force such as Kenpachi's behind it. :)

[Seff vi Britannia]

Senkei is just a different form, it's not an additional multiplier.

[Habanero]

SKY is a blade, just smaller one, it's not a piece of paper for that faulty logic of yours to apply.

You just don't get it do ya?

I believe the difference in physical sharpness of blades used by captain level shinigami is probably neglegable, relying more on the spiritual "sharpness" (pressure) of the blade itself and (if cutting is possible, then also) the force applied to it.

Exactly.

As Yachiru put it when Ichigo tried to cut Zaraki the first time: "A sword like that is the same as a bladeless sword to Ken-chan."

If a single petal doesn't have enough spirit force in it, it simply has no blade against a powerful opponent.

1.) I do. ONE scan that shows Zaraki can even do shunpo, or any other high speed movement.
2.) Refer to the above.
3.) When has anyone broken out of six rod prison? Oh yeah, never.

1.)Chapter 103, page 14.
2.)Same to you
3.)When has it ever been used on someone with notable power? Oh yeah, never.

6 arms can never be faster than someone free of any burdens, especially not swinging a pole in his hand.

These are exactly the strange kind of claims you like to make, but usually they just don't make any sense. As long as the one having 6 arms has also the strenght to use them, there's nothing stopping him from being faster.

Byakuya avoided attacks of fastest Espada. Manga scan that shows Nnoitora is on par on faster with Zomari's speed please.

Byakuya avoided a whole two attacks, and the 2nd one with a technique that leaves a piece of clothing behind. How long do you think he would have been able to continue doing that? Zomari was obviously having the advantage the whole time there.

Zomari is the fastest espada, so obviously Noitoira isn't that fast, but neither is Byakuya. Now I guess I should ask you the chapter where it's said that Noitoira isn't as fast as Byakuya... :whatevah:

Don't treat me like an idiot if I can defend my own point of view, and you can't.

The thing is, you can't. You're making an awfull lot of baseless claims, and it seems like you assume that people should just accept everything you say as an universal truth.

What pisses me off are the people who have no idea of the matter but continiue to post just o piss people off.

Is this directed at me? I admit I'm doing this to piss some people off, but to say that I have no idea of the matter, well that's arrogance! :winking56

I always post in the same matter, BTW. Ever since I joined, which was like, a year ago. :whatevah:

That could be the case, but it hasn't been until lately that your posts have really started to sting my eye for some reason. :rolleye09

[Seff vi Britannia]

I think Habanero and I are thinking along the same lines.

The greater the number of petals, the greater the damage. But the sharpness does not increase, meaning they'd simply wash over Nnoitra.

Byakuya isn't as fast as you make him out to be. Let's put it this way; Shikai Ichigo is slightly above shikai Byakuya. Ichigo's bankai only increases his speed, wheras Byakuya's bankai dosen't increase his at all. Now i know Ichigo was injured, but i would imagine Ichigo bankai injured speed = bankai Byakuya speed. (see when his bones were broken.) Nnoitra was able to slap Ichigo around when Ichigo was injured, so his speed is either eqaul too, slightly lower, or greater than Byakuya's by my reasoning.

[Sendivoge]

@Jehuty: Additional? Senkei is one of Byakuya's forms of bankai, it's most probably 5-10X more powerful than his shikai, with a greater killing ability than SKY. This is because of it's compression enabling it greater spiritual pressure, we don't mean it's a greater power that SKY in every way possible.

1.)Chapter 103, page 14.
I'm afraid that wasn't shunpo, but rather an illusion created by Zaraki's incredible killing intent. Pretty cool, eh? He's not necessarily anywhere near him at the time, but has ample to time catch up with ichigo by other means.

[diamondedge]

If a single petal doesn't have enough spirit force in it, it simply has no blade against a powerful opponent.
So, mnigun can't kill anyone since only a single bullet can be fired from it.

1.)Chapter 103, page 14.
2.)Same to you
3.)When has it ever been used on someone with notable power? Oh yeah, never.

OMG SUCH a fail, that was SUCH a fail! :Haha
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-103-page-15.html
The very next page shows that that was not any kind of attack, it was the effect of zaraki's spiritual force on him as Ichigo remained unharmed. LOL this much be one of the greatest fails, ever.
Meaning, you fail to show the 1st point wrong, you fail to show 2nd point wrong, where as you can go and check just about every Byakuya fight where he uses high speed movement.
that was clearly and ILLUSION.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-103-page-15.html

As for 3rd one, GG, you can't prove me wrong, since nobody has broken out, and it was used 3 times, thus it's efficency in the manga is 100%

These are exactly the strange kind of claims you like to make, but usually they just don't make any sense. As long as the one having 6 arms has also the strenght to use them, there's nothing stopping him from being faster.
If you don't get what I am saying for explaining for the 3rd time, don't quote.

Byakuya avoided a whole two attacks, and the 2nd one with a technique that leaves a piece of clothing behind. How long do you think he would have been able to continue doing that? Zomari was obviously having the advantage the whole time there.
What good is the advantage if Zomari FAILED to HARM Byakuya?

Zomari is the fastest espada, so obviously Noitoira isn't that fast, but neither is Byakuya. Now I guess I should ask you the chapter where it's said that Noitoira isn't as fast as Byakuya... :whatevah:
:)
Not replying to BS, sry.

The thing is, you can't. You're making an awfull lot of baseless claims, and it seems like you assume that people should just accept everything you say as an universal truth.
Actually, I supported everything in the very first post, which you ironicly, failed to quote as a whole with explanations. For someone who can't even bother to find and quote, it's not your place to accuse me of making baseless claims.

Is this directed at me? I admit I'm doing this to piss some people off, but to say that I have no idea of the matter, well that's arrogance! :winking56
No. To think you do, that is arrogance. Especially after you used manga examples to show how much you fail.

[Habanero]

So, mnigun can't kill anyone since only a single bullet can be fired from it.

Eh...?

OMG SUCH a fail, that was SUCH a fail! :Haha
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-103-page-15.html
The very next page shows that that was not any kind of attack, it was the effect of zaraki's spiritual force on him as Ichigo remained unharmed. LOL this much be one of the greatest fails, ever.

LOLOL! The irony of your words is beyond priceless. Since when has attacking become one of the requirements for shunpo?

Maybe you should just stop for a sec and think before you write anything down. You're making yourself look like a fool.

Meaning, you fail to show the 1st point wrong, you fail to show 2nd point wrong, where as you can go and check just about every Byakuya fight where he uses high speed movement.
that was clearly and ILLUSION.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-103-page-15.html

Meaning, nothing wrong with the 1st point, tables turn, you fail. :Haha


As for 3rd one, GG, you can't prove me wrong, since nobody has broken out, and it was used 3 times, thus it's efficency in the manga is 100%

Yep, that's true, which is why I said I'd like to see what would happen if it was used against a powerfull opponent. Never I stated that it doesn't work, just that I'd like to see if it does.

What good is the advantage if Zomari FAILED to HARM Byakuya?

So you admit that Zomari was faster? My point exactly, thank you.

Not replying to BS, sry.

I've been answering to your BS for some time now. I'd be pleased if you returned the favor. :winking56

Actually, I supported everything in the very first post, which you ironicly, failed to quote as a whole with explanations. For someone who can't even bother to find and quote, it's not your place to accuse me of making baseless claims.

Don't worry, I'll quote all baseless arguments from your 1st post later on! :rolleye09

No. To think you do, that is arrogance. Especially after you used manga examples to show how much you fail.

/facepalm

[Undying]

Seriously Haba, what are you saying? You're failing two arguments here.

1. Let's say that SKY can't penetrate Nnoitora's Hierro immediately. It's can't cut it.

It's doesn't have to. Take one million toothpicks. One million (which is less than SKY; SKY is 1000^1000 at the least, but those blades are at least ten times bigger than Byakuya's first sword, making it 1000^10000) toothpicks, and drop them on a steel door at regular gravitational speed.

Nothing happens, right? Well not much anyway. But let's say the toothpicks are undamaged. There is damage to the steel door, only not much. Not continue doing this indifferently. Eventually, the steel door will be broken.

And now use at least a bullet's speed on those million (just one million) toothpicks. Your steel door will be smashed apart (or through), by sheer wait, not cut at all.

And besides, you failed to note that since SKY is still Byakuya's zanpakto, it's cutting power can be increased as well as decreased (if Byakuya could hold back against Renji, he can also strengthen his offense by sharpening his spiritual power).

2. Nnoitora could probably break the Six-rod-light-prison, yes. Much good it will do to him, as he'll have to wade through 1000^10000 petals which move at him at bullet speeds. He will be smashed.

And I've already covered most of your arguments anyway:

http://forums.bleachportal.net/showpost.php?p=2492797&postcount=2

Read first.

LOLOL! The irony of your words is beyond priceless. Since when has attacking become one of the requirements for shunpo?

Maybe you should just stop for a sec and think before you write anything down. You're making yourself look like a fool.
*cough*

And can you prove that Zaraki coming down from that roof was shunpo? Can you prove that the illusion lasted for only a second? If the illusion lasted for a few seconds during which Ichigo was paralyzed, mayb it was shunpo.

But what if it lasted for, shall we say, a minute? And Zaraki ran down? Not shunpo.

Owned lulz. And quit flaming Dia. That statement should be taken both ways by both of you. Quit flaming D:.

And, the most important point of all, let's say it WAS a shunpo. Lo and behold Zaraki can shunpo!

Byakuya is still loads faster, so your point is? Byakuya, without any illusion, was shown to get from a similar rooftop to Renji's back in a blink. Zaraki needed illusion and a few seconds.

Byakuya is light years faster, so this point is null. He's still fast enough to catch 3 out of four clones of the "fastest Espada", and he can dodge the fourth effectively using a technique (which means he has other techniques to allow similar dodging or movement) making him faster than Nnoitora.

Oh and Haba, Zomari was faster but Byakuya had all the counters. If Byakuya can counter the faster Espada effectively, why wouldn't he be able to counter the tankSpada more easily? Nnoitora isn't a speed master, so he would be slower than Zomari by a fair margin, making Byakuya fast enough to effectively dodge all his attacks, Cero included.

[Sendivoge]

Eh...?
LOLOL! The irony of your words is beyond priceless. Since when has attacking become one of the requirements for shunpo?
Maybe you should just stop for a sec and think before you write anything down. You're making yourself look like a fool.
Meaning, nothing wrong with the 1st point, tables turn, you fail. :Haha
We're not saying shunpo involves sticking a sword through someone, we're saying that that entire section (from about 11-14) was illusion. Kenpachi wasn't using shunpo to rush up and whisper in ichigo's ear, then suddenly using shunpo to zoom back up to the top of a building when he turns around. Zaraki was very easily able to catch up with ichigo using regular methods, which probably even included superior speed at the time.

@Undying: I don't agree with your analogy, more specifically with the implied momentum that millions of blades travelling at bullet speed have. And i highly doubt that SKY would have anything near... and i mean ANTHING near 1X10^3000 blades, let alone 1X10^30000.

[diamondedge]

Eh...?
LOLOL! The irony of your words is beyond priceless. Since when has attacking become one of the requirements for shunpo?
:) Good day.
That means Bykauya can smash Nnoitora without attacking.

It was not even an attack, manga explicitly states it is an ILLUSION.
To quote from English dictionary:
Definition: An illusion is something that appears real, but isn't.
Therefore, it never happened, if it never happened you can't use it as as argument it DID happen.

You fail to read the manga, you fail to make arguments from it , you fail to properly debate. I'm done with you. :)

[h3h3h3]

1. Let's say that SKY can't penetrate Nnoitora's Hierro immediately. It's can't cut it.

Ok.

Nothing happens, right? Well not much anyway. But let's say the toothpicks are undamaged. There is damage to the steel door, only not much. Not continue doing this indifferently. Eventually, the steel door will be broken.Uhmm, no?

And now use at least a bullet's speed on those million (just one million) toothpicks. Your steel door will be smashed apart (or through), by sheer wait, not cut at all.
Are you serious? The SKY that didn't kill Renji, even scratches Nnoitra?

Your toothpick simulation fails. They can be directed for the steel door for 1000 year, it won't make a slight difference in the outcome which is complete waste of time.

And besides, you failed to note that since SKY is still Byakuya's zanpakto, it's cutting power can be increased as well as decreased (if Byakuya could hold back against Renji, he can also strengthen his offense by sharpening his spiritual power).Assumption

2. Nnoitora could probably break the Six-rod-light-prison, yes. Much good it will do to him, as he'll have to wade through 1000^10000 petals which move at him at bullet speeds. He will be smashed.:rolleye09

[diamondedge]

Are you serious? The SKY that didn't kill Renji, even scratches Nnoitra?
Are you serious? Aizen kill anyone, after Komamura was able to get up without any aid after being struck by most powerful kidou attack we have seen in Bleach, and Kidou can pawn a bankai.

Aizen fails because he is so weak he can't even slash to split a body in half! Kenpachi uses kendo his attacks must be stronger than Aizen's! :o
Aizen is so weak he can't inflict a mortal wound to murder someone, after the tried 3 times.

Your toothpick simulation fails.
It does, because Senbonzakura is still a blade made of metal and not a piece of wood.

Assumption

No, Byakuya explicitly stated he was holding back and the first point is common Bleach knowledge. Or else shikai Gin can't kill harmed Byakuya who was just standing there and got hit directly in the chest.

[Seff vi Britannia]

SKY individually cannot break Nnoitra's Hierro.
Because it's sharpness dosen't increase with number, SKY cannot break Nnoitra's Hierro.

[diamondedge]

Sharpness doesn't, but the force of impact does, and if the force is greater, due to shape of Senbonzakura damage will be inflicted.

[h3h3h3]

It does, because Senbonzakura is still a blade made of metal and not a piece of wood.

Wow, read what we were talking about then come back.

No, Byakuya explicitly stated he was holding back and the first point is common Bleach knowledge. Or else shikai Gin can't kill harmed Byakuya who was just standing there and got hit directly in the chest.You mean Byakuya can sharpen millions of blades individually, that's quite laughable there.

[Night Prowler]

Noitra's cero slow? Where did you pull that from?
Zaraki just pushed it aside. I don't see how that's slow. Zaraki's not as weak as you make him out to be =/ He was able to see the cero and used his reflexes. We know he has them, remember his fight with Tousen. He was able to dodge most of his attacks the SECOND he felt the blade.
You're just simply hating on Zaraki.

Its already been stated that Byakuya has better reflexes than Zakari and he's obviously quicker. WTF I'm quite a fan of Zakari or did you just skip the bit where i said that Zakari would be able to win if he had a power up like Bya and Mayuri had to use to defeat there Espanda's. I'm just not a biased FanBOY who sees him through rose tinited glasses. Also we all know Cero takes its time to power up for anyone, all im saying is if Nnot used it then Bya would be able to dodge and gain the upperhand through his speed.

I believe the difference in physical sharpness of blades used by captain level shinigami is probably neglegable, relying more on the spiritual "sharpness" (pressure) of the blade itself and (if cutting is possible, then also) the force applied to it. Zaraki has trouble initially cutting Nnoitra, who claims his hierro is the strongest of all espada.
While Kenpachi's zanpakutou may appear to be blunt, i believe it to be quite the opposite in terms of spiritual pressure. I don't know how people influence the spiritual sharpness of their zanpakutou during a fight, as i only remember it being done by Kenpachi and Ichigo thus far. To me, it would be a reasonable theory that the sharpness of their zanpakutou's, which are in a permanent state of shikai, can be influenced by their incredible levels of reiatsu. If there's somewhere it's actually explained, i need to know.
With a skin of such immense spiritual pressure, i very much doubt Nnoitra could be penetrated simply by Byakuya's petals. I think for Byakuya to actually penetrate that hierro, he would need to at least be using senkei (if not shukei, assuming even shukei would be enough). We know that by compressing the blades into individual swords, it increases the killing ability.
When i think spiritual pressure, i think Zaraki Kenpachi.

What and Bya's got no reiatsu, i personally think he's got as much as Zakari but he knows how to control it and doesn't have to wear an eyepatch with muchers inside it to keep himself from overloading.

ALSO can everyone stop calling Byakuya's Senbonzakura "petals", there Blades!

Also H3 how about you stop flaming and back up your points.

[diamondedge]

Learn 2 read, I was quoting the part where you said that it is only assumption that captain an control the force of his abilities.

[Undying]

@Undying: I don't agree with your analogy, more specifically with the implied momentum that millions of blades travelling at bullet speed have. And i highly doubt that SKY would have anything near... and i mean ANTHING near 1X10^3000 blades, let alone 1X10^30000.
"A thousand blades rise from the ground".

I think that sums up the numbering of SKY :rolleye09

Now look at the size of those blades. One regular Katana - 70-90cm in length - breaks into 1000 petals. 10 times that size (at least) would break into ten times the number (at least).

As for momentum, he obliterated a large building with a single attack (Zomari).

Uhmm, no?
Yes.
Are you serious? The SKY that didn't kill Renji, even scratches Nnoitra?

Your toothpick simulation fails. They can be directed for the steel door for 1000 year, it won't make a slight difference in the outcome which is complete waste of time.
No, and no.

Byakuya wasn't trying to kill Renji ("next time I won't hold back").

And a single toothpick can break through a steel door eventually, if it is not dented or harmed in any way while being hurled at the door.

Also, going by your logic, Aizen is a failure.
Assumption
No, directly from the manga. Byakuya was holding back.
SKY individually cannot break Nnoitra's Hierro.
Because it's sharpness dosen't increase with number, SKY cannot break Nnoitra's Hierro
A single petal won't, I assure you.

1000^10000? Seriously now... billions of petals. :rolleye09

[diamondedge]

What and Bya's got no reiatsu, i personally think he's got as much as Zakari but he knows how to control it and doesn't have to wear an eyepatch with muchers inside it to keep himself from overloading.
Actually, the fact he is able to control it would also mean he can UNLEASH it when needed. :) Because that is also a form of control.

@h3h3h3: No, it is you who should come back, as I know very well what is the issue here.

[Sendivoge]

What and Bya's got no reiatsu, i personally think he's got as much as Zakari but he knows how to control it and doesn't have to wear an eyepatch with muchers inside it to keep himself from overloading.
Doubtful, and i think most Byakuya fans would agree with me there.

@Undying: It occurs to me that you probably meant X instead of ^. Note that ^ means 'to the power of'. So that would be 1000 times itself 1000 times... 1000X1000X1000 etc etc

[h3h3h3]

Byakuya wasn't trying to kill Renji ("next time I won't hold back").
And a single toothpick can break through a steel door eventually, if it is not dented or harmed in any way while being hurled at the door.
Yea, he meant explictly SKY, quite laughable.

Then it's not a toothpick, and petals can obviously be harmed dented, still fails.

No, directly from the manga. Byakuya was holding back.
A single petal won't, I assure you.
Yes.No?

1000^10000? Seriously now... billions of petals. :rolleye09It won't make any difference :rolleye09

@Diamond: You still don't get it do you? I will be waiting till you sort that out.

[diamondedge]

Doubtful, and i think most Byakuya fans would agree with me there.

Depending on which part you find "doubtful".

@h3h3h3: Assumptions.

[Night Prowler]

Doubtful, and i think most Byakuya fans would agree with me there.

Really cause i just had one of the biggest Bya fans agree with my statement AND expand on it.

[h3h3h3]

Really cause i just had one of the biggest Bya fans agree with my statement AND expand on it.Yea, considering they are Byakuya fans, we can't excpect much sense about them when they talk about Byakuya.

Saying Byakuya has even near Zaraki patched Reiatsu on his own, seales my statement.

[Sendivoge]

I'm a byakuya fan.

Depending on which part you find "doubtful".

@h3h3h3: Assumptions.
The part where a Byakuya fan thinks Byakuya has an equal amount of reiatsu to Zaraki Kenpachi, of course. I have no doubt Byakuya is skilled with kido, but i've never seen any indication of having reiatsu anywhere close to kenpachi. Nor would i make the fanciful assumption that he would. I don't assume kenpachi has hax shunpo skills simply because i haven't seen them, assuming it's another handicap.

[Night Prowler]

Go home H3 your not bringing anything to this discussion, Atleast Diamond is using facts in what she says, unlike you whos just flaming.

@Sen: What and having the power to control millions of tiny ultra sharp blades isn't proof that he has lots of reiatsu??

[h3h3h3]

I'm a byakuya fan.
Well you are one of the few sane when it comes to Byakuya :face82:
Go home H3 your not bringing anything to this discussion, Atleast Diamond is using facts in what she says, unlike you whos just flaming.
Me flaming? That's rich. You take diamonds 'facts' because you like Byakuya, and I am in my home.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Sharpness doesn't, but the force of impact does, and if the force is greater, due to shape of Senbonzakura damage will be inflicted.

And there's no proof that that force would be enough. SKY can't break Nnoitra's Hierro.

[Night Prowler]

@H3: emm do you read posts? I've already stated that I'm not a Bya fan, quite hate him tbh but I'm one of the few people on here who doesn't discuss the matter with a Bias opinion.

@Jehuty: What have we just been discussing??

[Undying]

@Undying: It occurs to me that you probably meant X instead of ^. Note that ^ means 'to the power of'. So that would be 1000 times itself 1000 times... 1000X1000X1000 etc etc
Indeed, my mistake, I haven't had my coffee yet :). I meant X (or an asterisk).

It's basically 1000*1000 =]. At least.

And as for the reiatsu part, Byakuya has at least as much as/more than patched-Zaraki reiatsu (by Ganju) and that when not fighting or doing anything beside walking.

While I'm not sure that he has quite as much reiatsu as Kenpachi's full power, Byakuya is still the far more superior one.
Yea, he meant explictly SKY, quite laughable.
:whatevah:

Then it's not a toothpick, and petals can obviously be harmed dented, still fails.
They can be harmed and dented? Page and chapter please. And while you're at it, the place where Byakuya could not simply reform them by using his reiatsu :whatevah: .
No?
Yes.
It won't make any difference
No shit. Tell us your secret, oh great one, how dust thou escape friction? Hell, a cloth swung by a human can break bones. It's got nowhere near the destructive power of SKY.

[h3h3h3]

@H3: emm do you read posts? I've already stated that I'm not a Bya fan, quite hate him tbh but I'm one of the few people on here who doesn't discuss the matter with a Bias opinion.
You think I buy that?

Let me find 1 thing brb.

[Night Prowler]

Go ahead take your time 'cause your gonna be here all day, none of my posts have used theorys/plain fiction or have been Biased.

[Seff vi Britannia]

@Jehuty: What have we just been discussing??

Scroll up if you want to see.

[Night Prowler]

Lol, sarcasm.

Anyway what proof do you have that Byakuya can't cut Nnotoria instead of saying "Nnotoria's Steel skin is pwn!!".

[h3h3h3]

@H3: emm do you read posts? I've already stated that I'm not a Bya fan, quite hate him tbh but I'm one of the few people on here who doesn't discuss the matter with a Bias opinion.
O'rly?
Although if the fight did happen then it would be a close one, we know Bya and Yoruchi have around the same amount of speed
Its already been stated that Byakuya has better reflexes than Zakari and he's obviously quicker.I wouldn't be arsed about finidng more of these. It's enough to prove my point.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Because, sharpness is not proportional to number of petals.

And when have i said
"Nnoitra's steel skin is pwn!"?
Never.

[Sendivoge]

Go ahead take your time 'cause your gonna be here all day, none of my posts have used theorys/plain fiction or have been Biased.
Saying Byakuya has reiatsu equal to Zaraki Kenpachi, just that he has no need for an eyepatch as he has better control over it, is every bit a theory.

[Night Prowler]

@Jehurty: True that you haven't said that but the only evidence you have that Bya won't be able to cut Nnot is from Nnot saying he has the strongest Steel Skin.

@Send:Not really a theory, cause its always been stated that Zakari can't control his reiatsu that much hence why he has the eyepatch, Captains class shinigami control there reiatsu otherwise they'd all be going around "with zanpukto's the size of skyscrapers" Kenpachi uses his Eyepatch and Byakuya uses his skill.

[Undying]

Because, sharpness is not proportional to number of petals.

No, sharpness is proportional to the user's ability to sharpen their spiritual pressure. Byakuya can sharpen his reiatsu, thus increasing his cutting power.

I covered it already.

Send:Not really a theory, cause its always been stated that Zakari can't control his reiatsu that much hence why he has the eyepatch, Captains class shinigami control there reiatsu otherwise they'd all be going around "with zanpukto's the size of skyscrapers" Kenpachi uses his Eyepatch and Byakuya uses his skill.
I think what Sendivoge is trying to say is that saying that Byakuya at his max and Zaraki at his max is a theory.

Although we do know that limited Zaraki (with eyepatch) and basic Byakuya are equal with Byakuya being possibly stronger. So if both went max, who knows.

[diamondedge]

@Snedivoge:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-116-page-9.html

I have the scan I don't have to assume anything.
(only aimed at h3h3h3 and co.)

Hm, people call Zaraki fast. People say Zaraki's illusion can shumpo and kill people. And provide manga scan that shows he can't. And accuse me of BSing.
Zaraki fans these days.

@h3h3h3: You can go feck urself, because your level of argumentation is NOWHERE near mine. :)

Not a single single person who isn't a Byakuya fan has provided better evidence to support his claims and that I hadn't (wasn't able to) rip apart where?

I have the s

[Sendivoge]

Indeed, my mistake, I haven't had my coffee yet :). I meant X (or an asterisk).
It's basically 1000*1000 =]. At least.
And as for the reiatsu part, Byakuya has at least as much as/more than patched-Zaraki reiatsu (by Ganju) and that when not fighting or doing anything beside walking.
You obviously know which part you're talking about; can i have a link for future reference? I'm having trouble finding it :)

@Night Prowler: It's never phrased that Zaraki simply has no control over his reiatsu, it's always a statement dependant on the amount of reiatsu he possesses. It doesn't matter if it seems logical to you, while it has no conclusive prove, it's just a theory. And a fanciful one, as i see it. I honestly don't think they'll ever show you the proof you need. :)

Edit: thanks dia, no need for the chapter Undying.

@Dia: was that paragraph about Zaraki directed at me?

[Night Prowler]

True it hasn't been stated but then why would Zakari use the eyepatch if he had control over his reiatsu??

[Sendivoge]

True it hasn't been stated but then why would Zakari use the eyepatch if he had control over his reiatsu??
Good, then i see no reason to continue arguing whether or not it's a theory, especially not in this thread. (this is regarding the first 5 words of your sentence.)

Btw they eyepatch a handicap... The reiatsu can be controlled by Kenpachi, just not contained because there's so much. I can see your argument with this being that it's an indication of lack of complete control, which hasn't been suggested by other characters or Zaraki himself from what i've seen. So, we have to stop here and accept that anything to suggest either, is just a theory. You can stop arguing now.

[Night Prowler]

You've basically just agreed with me that he can't contain it and that Bya can control his, hence why Bya has enough Reiatsu to be able to cut Nnotoria.

Also if anyone in this thread should stop "argueing" is you, as your going off the topic of discussion.

[diamondedge]

^^ Indeed, therefore simply stating that Byakuya wouldn't be able to overcome Nnoitora's defenses because his reiatsu is SO much weaker than Kenpachi's when manga clearly suggests that isn't the case is simply ridiculous.

[Sendivoge]

^^ Indeed, therefore simply stating that Byakuya wouldn't be able to overcome Nnoitora's defenses because his reiatsu is SO much weaker than Kenpachi's when manga clearly suggests that isn't the case is simply ridiculous.
I say that's all just interpretation of control, and i was only arguing with the statement of Byakuya's reiatsu > unpatched Zaraki as fact. Ganju knows nothing of Kenpachi or his eyepatch. All we saw was Ganju and Hanatarou buckle under the pressure as Kenpachi stood in the vacinity. I still say Byakuya's shikai is unable to cut Nnoitra's hierro.

@Night Prowler: If you want to reread my above post, predicting your post, and reply to it again, feel free. Otherwise...

I don't think i'll bother arguing with such speculation anymore. :)

[diamondedge]

I say that's all just interpretation of control, and i was only arguing with the statement of Byakuya's reiatsu > unpatched Zaraki as fact. Ganju knows nothing of Kenpachi or his eyepatch. All we saw was Ganju and Hanatarou buckle under the pressure as Kenpachi stood in the vacinity. I still say Byakuya's shikai is unable to cut Nnoitra's hierro.
And Ganju knows nothing of the reiatsu Bykauya has in bankai or when fully releasing his spiritual power. After all, he had made the statement when Byakuya was walking down the bridge, unaware of him even being there or scaring anyone with reiatsu at that time.

And nobody is arguing about shikai being able to penetrate his Hierro.

So we are right at the beginning. Zaraki was able to cut Nnoitora, I see no reason why Byakuya couldn't with SKY.

[Night Prowler]

We're just being *****y now, and i apologise as it does seem like we've crossed wires.

I wasn't saying Bya has more than Ken just that he the same amount as Ken who is able to cut up Nnotoria alot, so really Bya's Reiatsu is sharp enough to do the same.

[Undying]

I think you people started arguing oranges and apples here -_-'.

Byakuya can control his reiatsu. Containing is an aspect of controlling something (e.g., Superman can contain his strength and not crush whoever he's holding because he is in control of his power).

Since Zaraki cannot contain his reiatsu, he requires the eyepatch.

This in no way indicates that Byakuya has any less reiatsu than Zaraki, only that Byakuya is capable of being able to contain his better due to superior control over it.

[Sendivoge]

Eh, bit of a late reply. I was having trouble with my quotes and then the post was edited and NP posted, so i thought i'd reply to that one too... :p

And Ganju knows nothing of the reiatsu Bykauya has in bankai or when fully releasing his spiritual power. After all, he had made the statement when Byakuya was walking down the bridge, unaware of him even being there or scaring anyone with reiatsu at that time.
Apparently neither does anyone else. I haven't seen it demonstrated or acknowledged in one of his battles. I'm not about to say Zaraki can shunpo just because i know he likes to handicap himself. :)

And nobody is arguing about shikai being able to penetrate his Hierro.
Shikai and SKY. Same effect here, as i see it, regardless of these friction ideas and strange momentum analogies. Sorry i didn't clarify that. :)

So we are right at the beginning. Zaraki was able to cut Nnoitora, I see no reason why Byakuya couldn't with SKY.
You said that, not me. I really don't know :)

We're just being *****y now, and i apologise as it does seem like we've crossed wires.

I wasn't saying Bya has more than Ken just that he the same amount as Ken who is able to cut up Nnotoria alot, so really Bya's Reiatsu is sharp enough to do the same.
You have an unusul way of getting to that point, that argument has little to do with Kenpachi's patchless power. I can easily accept that they are most likely on a similar level with kenpachi's eyepatch on. :)

But much is the case, i believe Byakuya's SKY (with equal spirit pressure as shikai) to be of less spiritual pressure than Zaraki's solid zanpakutou. And Zaraki is the only person i've heard speak of spiritual sharpness, which apparently requires effort. I'm not saying Byakuya can't cut Nnoitora's hierro, i'm just saying i personally don't think he can. I believe he would need something with greater (more compressed) cutting power.

[Bankai_Zangetsu]

well im not gonna ge ttoo deep into this argument cuz ive only read the first page. but relating to SKY being able to cut noitora .... during senkei ogichi managed block byakuyas sword with his bare hands. at this point he wasnt worn out too badly, byakuya acutally had a huge upperhand until he received 3 KGTS. anyways i assume that form of vaizard ichigo is about the same as a released noitora power wise. if a blade from senkei couldnt cut him i dont think the blades from regular SKY can cut him. unless of course he sends em all down his one eye socket lol. im only runnin off assumptions theres no proof that ogichi and noitora have close reiatsu. im only sayin this cuz vaizard ichigo was useless against ulqu so im only goin up to the next.

well enough of my ramblin lol i just think noitora would win a very tough battle.... if he loses itd be to shuukei hakutein

[Sendivoge]

Eh, i wouldn't be all that willing to accept an ichigo/ogichi comparison, even less so when the blade was grabbed in mid air and did technically cut ogichi.

[Zanga]

Its already been stated that Byakuya has better reflexes than Zakari and he's obviously quicker. WTF I'm quite a fan of Zakari or did you just skip the bit where i said that Zakari would be able to win if he had a power up like Bya and Mayuri had to use to defeat there Espanda's. I'm just not a biased FanBOY who sees him through rose tinited glasses. Also we all know Cero takes its time to power up for anyone, all im saying is if Nnot used it then Bya would be able to dodge and gain the upperhand through his speed.
What and Bya's got no reiatsu, i personally think he's got as much as Zakari but he knows how to control it and doesn't have to wear an eyepatch with muchers inside it to keep himself from overloading.
ALSO can everyone stop calling Byakuya's Senbonzakura "petals", there Blades!
Also H3 how about you stop flaming and back up your points.

Again, I haven't seen Byakuya demonstrate he has more reflexes then Zaraki. Sure he is much quicker, but reflexes from a guy who has done nothing but fight his entire life would be have MUCH better reflexes then a spoiled little rich kid could ever have.

And Zaraki didn't dodge the cero because he didn't need to dodge it. You think Byakuya could've just pushed it aside?

And for the people who still doubt that Senkei can cut Noitra, Byakuya has stated that in this form, senbonzakura condenses all its power together for a full offense, meaning its power DOES go up, because his bankai is becoming similiar to Ichigo's bankai..just 100 more swords.

And the eyepatch is there to make fighting more fun.

[h3h3h3]

@h3h3h3: You can go feck urself, because your level of argumentation is NOWHERE near mine. :)
Now, now diamond you know what happened last time with the flaming. You call your 'facts' argumentation?...

Stating that Byakuya cuts Nnoitra with SKY is arrogance in itself.

Yea Senkei cuts everything but the battle will be over after Nnoitra's 1 slash in the throat.

[DarkSlayer]

Yea Senkei cuts everything but the battle will be over after Nnoitra's 1 slash in the throat.
Oh come now, h3h3h3. You and I BOTH know that Nnoitora wouldn't miss the opportunity to run his big mouth about how he's the 'strongest' Espada. Especially in the presence of one such as Byakuya.

We have the typical 'Antagonist monologues, giving the hero the upper hand' scenario. Nnoitora is too full of himself to finish a worthy foe in one blow.

[Undying]

Now, now diamond you know what happened last time with the flaming. You call your 'facts' argumentation?...
Stating that Byakuya cuts Nnoitra with SKY is arrogance in itself.
Yea Senkei cuts everything but the battle will be over after Nnoitra's 1 slash in the throat.
:rolleye09 Nnoitora could never hit Byakuya. Bya is too fast and too agile for Nnoitora.

It will all be over when Byakuya removes Nnoitora's head accidentally.
Again, I haven't seen Byakuya demonstrate he has more reflexes then Zaraki. Sure he is much quicker, but reflexes from a guy who has done nothing but fight his entire life would be have MUCH better reflexes then a spoiled little rich kid could ever have.
Wrong.

Byakuya is fighting inclined as well, which indicates he would have trained and fought no less than Zaraki had - against opponents who are faster and more trained (e.g., Yoruichi. Or are you suggesting that some ragtag mobs from Rukongai are faster than the Goddess of Flash?).

Also, Byakuya is smaller than Zaraki. His lesser muscle mass would be easier to move at any given time, because his nerves are shorter and the signal needs to go through less distance.

Thirdly and lastly, Zaraki hadn't displayed any notable reflexes, he simply moves to the other side he felt a sword slashing him. Any human could do it - close your eyes, plug your ears, have someone press a knife to your arm. You'll jump away, same as Zaraki.

[Sendivoge]

The only problem i can see with BYakuya using senkei to win, is difficulty in defending against 6 arms. I don't know if he could take much punishment.

Wrong.

Byakuya is fighting inclined as well, which indicates he would have trained and fought no less than Zaraki had - against opponents who are faster and more trained (e.g., Yoruichi. Or are you suggesting that some ragtag mobs from Rukongai are faster than the Goddess of Flash?)
Personally, i'm more inclined believe Hanatarou, who seems to believe that Zaraki earnt the nickname as 'kenpachi'. I can't imagine Byakuya going out of his way to fight. Not that i'm arguing Zaraki has greater reflexes.

Also, Byakuya is smaller than Zaraki. His lesser muscle mass would be easier to move at any given time, because his nerves are shorter and the signal needs to go through less distance.
Heh, I'm not trying to make a belittling comment or anything, but was that signal part a joke? I'm sure i read something somewhere about Zaraki's synapses operating faster than Byakuya's. I'll have to check what the CAT scans reported... i think they were in Chapter 163 :Haha

Thirdly and lastly, Zaraki hadn't displayed any notable reflexes, he simply moves to the other side he felt a sword slashing him. Any human could do it - close your eyes, plug your ears, have someone press a knife to your arm. You'll jump away, same as Zaraki.
I don't really think those were quite involuntary reflex actions. Kepachi doesn't seem like the kind to flinch when stabbed, especially when he knows it's bound to happen.

[Undying]

The only problem i can see with BYakuya using senkei to win, is difficulty in defending against 6 arms. I don't know if he could take much punishment.
He won't even be hit, he's too quick and nimble.
Personally, i'm more inclined believe Hanatarou, who seems to believe that Zaraki earnt the nickname as 'kenpachi'. I can't imagine Byakuya going out of his way to fight. Not that i'm arguing Zaraki has greater reflexes.
Why go out of his way, when he can fight people with a far greater level of power as part of his training? Ukitake, Yoruichi, and the like. They are all far more powerful than Zaraki, and Byakuya can fight them as training.
And Kenpachi's earned nickname *drummroll* only speaks of the fact that he will fall and always RISE AGAIN (that's what Hanatarou said, there wasn't anything about reflexes, he was saying you can't kill him).
And the awesome part about Hantarou's statement is that it's wrong \0/. Zaraki admits he could die, he did so in chapter 311. "If this goes on, I will really be worm food", that's why he switched to Kendo.
Heh, I'm not trying to make a belittling comment or anything, but was that signal part a joke? I'm sure i read something somewhere about Zaraki's synapses operating faster than Byakuya's. I'll have to check what the CAT scans reported... i think they were in Chapter 163 :Haha
:rolleye09 Riiiiight. It's a simple matter of the distance the siganl has to pass. Even if Zaraki's synapses are faster, Byakuya's take less time to get where they need, so even with this blatant glorifying of Zaraki, they are still AT LEAST equal (lesser distance to pass is somewhat like having a greater speed... IF that is true).
I don't really think those were quite involuntary reflex actions. Kepachi doesn't seem like the kind to flinch when stabbed, especially when he knows it's bound to happen.
Why involuntary reflex actions? Kenpachi was READY. You can be ready too. Do what I suggested above. You will be ready for the knife, so you will move away.
That is STILL not a greater demonstration of reflexes, everyone can do it.

[diamondedge]

Now, now diamond you know what happened last time with the flaming. You call your 'facts' argumentation?...
Stating that Byakuya cuts Nnoitra with SKY is arrogance in itself.
Yea Senkei cuts everything but the battle will be over after Nnoitra's 1 slash in the throat.
Yeah. My posts >>>> "assumptions", which is all you reply with.
Stating that Byakuya cuts Nnoitra with SKY is arrogance in itself.

Yea Senkei cuts everything but the battle will be over after Nnoitra's 1 slash in the throat.
Nnoitora was shown vulnerable,. So yeah. You have no evidence whatsoever that kenpachi's slash holds greater power than Byakuya's SKY, you can't even show a brick is any less tough that Nnoitorra's skin.

Precious Kenpachi fanboys already failed miserable proving zaraki can do any kind of high speed movement, as you fail to prove Nnoitora can do any king of high speed movement that would be faster than Byakuyas.

You can have all the power in the world if you are too slow to hit me.

@Sendivoge: No, bankiai = 5-10 x shikai rule applies, so yeah, it does matter which form is used, regardless of the number of petals.

And for the 121762632 th time, Byakuya would NOT take damage because he AVOIDS it.

[Habanero]

Seriously Haba, what are you saying? You're failing two arguments here.

1. Let's say that SKY can't penetrate Nnoitora's Hierro immediately. It's can't cut it.

It's doesn't have to. Take one million toothpicks. One million (which is less than SKY; SKY is 1000^1000 at the least, but those blades are at least ten times bigger than Byakuya's first sword, making it 1000^10000) toothpicks, and drop them on a steel door at regular gravitational speed.

Nothing happens, right? Well not much anyway. But let's say the toothpicks are undamaged. There is damage to the steel door, only not much. Not continue doing this indifferently. Eventually, the steel door will be broken.

Sry for late replies!

First of all, drop a gazillion toothpicks on a steel door and it stays unscathed. No matter how many times you do it. Nothing happens. Drop a tree with the same mass as the toothpicks and you get quite the dent on the door.

Same analogy with Byakuya's sword. When he keeps the blade intact, it has far more spirit power and can penetrate Noitoira's skin, in SKY all that power is divided by a fairly large number and that's when it loses it's sharp edge completely against a powerfull opponent.

And now use at least a bullet's speed on those million (just one million) toothpicks. Your steel door will be smashed apart (or through), by sheer wait, not cut at all.

No, it won't.

And besides, you failed to note that since SKY is still Byakuya's zanpakto, it's cutting power can be increased as well as decreased (if Byakuya could hold back against Renji, he can also strengthen his offense by sharpening his spiritual power).

That's the point, since there are so many blades and the power of bankai is divided, he may not have enough power to empower the petals to the point where they can pierce Noitoira's skin.

And can you prove that Zaraki coming down from that roof was shunpo? Can you prove that the illusion lasted for only a second? If the illusion lasted for a few seconds during which Ichigo was paralyzed, mayb it was shunpo.

Euhm... Just look at the page as it is. As soon as Ichigo starts to look at Kenpachi on the roof, he shunpos behind Ichigo and that is when the illusion starts.

And quit flaming Dia. That statement should be taken both ways by both of you. Quit flaming D:.

She's got no one but herself to blame for the aggressive tone. It's not my fault if she loses it when it comes to Byakuya. My words are mere return fire.

Byakuya is still loads faster, so your point is? Byakuya, without any illusion, was shown to get from a similar rooftop to Renji's back in a blink. Zaraki needed illusion and a few seconds.

That's just an opinion. Nowhere is it stated that Byakuya is faster. Though I believe he is somewhat.

Looking at the panels, the illusion started right after zaraki appeared behind Ichigo. That happened in a blink of an eye, in the same way as Bya shunpoed behind Renji.

Byakuya is light years faster, so this point is null. He's still fast enough to catch 3 out of four clones of the "fastest Espada", and he can dodge the fourth effectively using a technique (which means he has other techniques to allow similar dodging or movement) making him faster than Nnoitora.

C'mon now... Now you're resorting to the same baseless assumptions as your sister in arms... :rolleye09

so he would be slower than Zomari by a fair margin, making Byakuya fast enough to effectively dodge all his attacks, Cero included.

Another assumption with no basis whatsoever :p

You fail to read the manga, you fail to make arguments from it , you fail to properly debate. I'm done with you.

Just because you're having trouble understanding the arguments several people are making doesn't make you any less wrong okay?

Just because you want to believe that Byakuya is far superior than anyone else doesn't make it true.

[diamondedge]

Sry for late replies!
First of all, drop a gazillion toothpicks on a steel door and it stays unscathed.
First of all, SKY is still made of a sword, made of metal. Even if in the bast case scenario Nnoitora's skin was as tough as metal, metal vs metal does not exactly equal toothpick vs metal. ^^

No matter how many times you do it. Nothing happens. Drop a tree with the same mass as the toothpicks and you get quite the dent on the door.
Wrong, because aparently a stick can easily penetrate it.

Euhm... Just look at the page as it is. As soon as Ichigo starts to look at Kenpachi on the roof, he shunpos behind Ichigo and that is when the illusion starts.
As I quoted the definition of illusion: It is not real, therefore, it didn't happen.

Looking at the panels, the illusion started right after zaraki appeared behind Ichigo. That happened in a blink of an eye, in the same way as Bya shunpoed behind Renji.
Key word: ILLUSION, which is NOT real. Something that didn't happen can't be used as evidence.
So, baseless assumptions.

Just because you're having trouble understanding the arguments several people are making doesn't make you any less wrong okay?
Just because you want to believe that Byakuya is far superior than anyone else doesn't make it true.
I never said that, if I think Byakuya looses I say so, as I have in the past. Don't think you know me.
I brought up an argument (Zaraki can use hi-speed movement), you brought up a point Zaraki's illusion can do shunpo, after Ichigo clearly remained unharmed because that is all it was - an illusion, meaning it was not real, it did not happen. I don't think I'm the one having difficulties understanding anything here.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-103-page-9.html

^^ I bet this is what actually happened.

As for second point, if I think Byakuya looses, I say so, I've actually done it before, and not just once. :whatevah:

[Undying]

Sry for late replies!
First of all, drop a gazillion toothpicks on a steel door and it stays unscathed. No matter how many times you do it. Nothing happens. Drop a tree with the same mass as the toothpicks and you get quite the dent on the door.
Same analogy with Byakuya's sword. When he keeps the blade intact, it has far more spirit power and can penetrate Noitoira's skin, in SKY all that power is divided by a fairly large number and that's when it loses it's sharp edge completely against a powerfull opponent.
Wrong. The mass will break it. Do you know the age old riddle, "what weights more, a kg of feathers or a kg of steel"?

A million toothpicks will damage a steel door.

Or better yet. A million bullets :rolleye09
No, it won't.
Yes it will.
That's the point, since there are so many blades and the power of bankai is divided, he may not have enough power to empower the petals to the point where they can pierce Noitoira's skin.
No. The power the bankai is in its entirety. What you're trying to say is that Nnoitora will be fighting a single petal. He won't. He is up against ALL of them.
Euhm... Just look at the page as it is. As soon as Ichigo starts to look at Kenpachi on the roof, he shunpos behind Ichigo and that is when the illusion starts.
No. The illusion began as soon as Ichigo went into Kenpachi's reiatsu. The whole "stab j00 in the torso with ma killin powaa" started after Ichigo was under the effect of Kenpachi's reiatsu for a while already.

That's just an opinion. Nowhere is it stated that Byakuya is faster. Though I believe he is somewhat.
It's not an opinion. It's a conclusion drawn from several facts, starting from Byakuya's demonstrations of speed techniques, followed by the fact he was trained by the Goddess of Flash.

Looking at the panels, the illusion started right after zaraki appeared behind Ichigo. That happened in a blink of an eye, in the same way as Bya shunpoed behind Renji.
Looking at the panels, Ichigo was under influence of Zaraki's immense reiatsu for a long while before noticing Zaraki. The illusion lasted for an undisclosed amount of time, which prevents it from being used as evidence to Zaraki's supposed speed feats.
C'mon now... Now you're resorting to the same baseless assumptions as your sister in arms... :rolleye09
Ohrlynao?

Is it baseless assumption that Byakuya managed to kill 3 of Zomari's four clones?

Is it baseless assumption that he had the technique to dodge the fourth one?

Now you're resorting to the typical anti-fanboy "well its baseless" argument.
Another assumption with no basis whatsoever :p
Is it assumption that Zomari called himself the fastest Espada?

Is it assumption that he's the only Espada so far to leave clones that actually demonstrated being cut by a sword (as opposed to after images which simply faded) or hurt by Kido?

[Habanero]

First of all, SKY is still made of a sword, made of metal. Even if in the bast case scenario Nnoitora's skin was as tough as metal, metal vs metal does not exactly equal toothpick vs metal. ^^

If there's not enough spirit force to empower the petal, there is no sharp edge to cut an opponent that is powerfull. That much we do know for certain. Whether Byakuya has enough spirit power for all the countless blades is what's debatable.

Wrong, because aparently a stick can easily penetrate it.

Not really following you there :p

Key word: ILLUSION, which is NOT real. Something that didn't happen can't be used as evidence.
So, baseless assumptions.

I never brought up any illusions to this debate. Zaraki clearly stands on the roof top, and as soon as Ichigo starts looking that way, Zaraki's behind him. Looking at the panels, the illusion part comes after that.

I brought up an argument (Zaraki can use hi-speed movement), you brought up a point Zaraki's illusion can do shunpo, after Ichigo clearly remained unharmed because that is all it was - an illusion, meaning it was not real, it did not happen. I don't think I'm the one having difficulties understanding anything here.

And again, it wasn't me who started talking about illusions :winking56

Of course the stab after the quick movement was an illusion, but the move itself is not.

As for the understanding part, I was talking about the fact that you can't cut your opponent if there's not enough spirit force to pierce his skin. Now of course Byakuya has that much, I'm just not quite sure it'd still be the case when that power is divided by gazillion. In other words, the petals become bladeless against a strong opponent, and he'd have to resort to swordplay after that.

Wrong. The mass will break it. Do you know the age old riddle, "what weights more, a kg of feathers or a kg of steel"?

A million toothpicks will damage a steel door.

Na-ah... The door will be covered by the toothpicks, but there won't be a dent in it. A toothpick is not durable enough, and million of them won't change anything.

No. The power the bankai is in its entirety. What you're trying to say is that Nnoitora will be fighting a single petal. He won't. He is up against ALL of them..

Yes, Byakuya can cover Noitoira with the petals, but if they can't hurt him, what's the point?

The illusion began as soon as Ichigo went into Kenpachi's reiatsu. The whole "stab j00 in the torso with ma killin powaa" started after Ichigo was under the effect of Kenpachi's reiatsu for a while already.

That is your interpretation. To me it looks like Kubo is just depicting Zaraki's murderous killing intent and siprit power up untill the point when he appears behind Ichigo, and the illusion starts.

Now you're resorting to the typical anti-fanboy "well its baseless" argument.
I was talking about this part:
Byakuya is light years faster
And this:
making Byakuya fast enough to effectively dodge all his attacks, Cero included.

Which both are... Yes... Assumptions! :p

[diamondedge]

If there's not enough spirit force to empower the petal, there is no sharp edge to cut an opponent that is powerfull. That much we do know for certain. Whether Byakuya has enough spirit power for all the countless blades is what's debatable.
tr00. However, Byakuya and Zaraki's spirit force in unreleased state is supposedly in the same level (while Byakuya's may be stronger), therefore we have reason to believe they may be on similar levels when released. Meaning, Nnoitora won't be no where near invulnerable to his attacks.

I never brought up any illusions to this debate. Zaraki clearly stands on the roof top, and as soon as Ichigo starts looking that way, Zaraki's behind him. Looking at the panels, the illusion part comes after that.
And again, it wasn't me who started talking about illusions :winking56
Of course the stab after the quick movement was an illusion, but the move itself is not.
Manga scan YOU provided as evidence this is shunpo Zaraki has been doing clearly indicates that nothing happened, it was all in Ichigo's mind. All of it. Because illusion already started way before that and we've seen Kenpachi whispering to Ichigo's ear, when he is clearly sitting on the roof. The drama effect.
See the post above, I brought up another scan. Which didn't happen. If stab wasn't real, Zaraki wasn't there to stab him, meaning, he didn't use shunpo.

[Seff vi Britannia]

If we want to be technical, there isn't any proof that Byakuya is faster than Nnoitra. :/

Shikai Ichigo is same speed as Zaraki.
Shikai Ichigo is same speed as Byakuya.

A = B
A = C
Therefore
B = C

So, er... >.>

[diamondedge]

If we went into technicals, bankai = 10x shikai.

Shikai Ichgio > Zaraki
Bankai Ichigo > Byakuya

Shikai Ichigo admitted he needed bankai power to defeat Byakuya.
Byakuya is at least 5 times of Zaraki power then.

[Undying]

Na-ah... The door will be covered by the toothpicks, but there won't be a dent in it. A toothpick is not durable enough, and million of them won't change anything.
:facepalm: No shit people.

I covered that too!

I said that they won't damaged! Sheesh!

Yes, Byakuya can cover Noitoira with the petals, but if they can't hurt him, what's the point?
They can, due to their mass and amount, and that they won't dent or break (super durable toothpicks!).

Or, to use a better example, bullets. A bullet that hits a wall is crunched against cement, but a hundred bullets will crash through. Same here. On petal will be flattened against Nnoitora's skin. And a million will smash Nnoitora by sheer mass.


That is your interpretation. To me it looks like Kubo is just depicting Zaraki's murderous killing intent and siprit power up untill the point when he appears behind Ichigo, and the illusion starts.
Ichigo was under the illusion from the second he entered Zaraki's energy.

"I feel like I'm not moving at all!" His sense were already affected.

I was talking about this part:

And this:

Which both are... Yes... Assumptions! :p
No, they are used to emphasize my statements. Either way though, you failed to bring any negating evidence to my conclusions, so... yeah. Get a move on, or else.

[Habanero]

I covered that too!
I said that they won't damaged! Sheesh!
They can, due to their mass and amount, and that they won't dent or break (super durable toothpicks!).

Now that's the point! Can Byakuya muster enough reiatsu to turn those toothpicks super durable? Talking in toothpicks is lelz :redbiggri

Or, to use a better example, bullets. A bullet that hits a wall is crunched against cement, but a hundred bullets will crash through. Same here. On petal will be flattened against Nnoitora's skin. And a million will smash Nnoitora by sheer mass.

Since all damage any impact does is caused by friction, we can conclude that high enough spirit force negates friction since the impact does not have any effect (shown on numerous occasions, shouldn't be anything debatable there eh?). Therefor if one petal will be flattened against Noitoira's body, they all will share the same fate and mass and number become meaningless.

Ichigo was under the illusion from the second he entered Zaraki's energy.
"I feel like I'm not moving at all!" His sense were already affected.

He was feeling the effect from Zaraki's spirit pressure. Nothing new there.

No, they are used to emphasize my statements. Either way though, you failed to bring any negating evidence to my conclusions, so... yeah. Get a move on, or else.

Nevertheless, you can't prove either of them. I never thought you'd agree with me in the first place, merely pointing out that your reasoning ain't exactly flawless. :winking56

[diamondedge]

Since all damage any impact does is caused by friction, we can conclude that high enough spirit force negates friction since the impact does not have any effect (shown on numerous occasions, shouldn't be anything debatable there eh?). Therefor if one petal will be flattened against Noitoira's body, they all will share the same fate and mass and number become meaningless.
Not, and Undiyng has covered perfectly well why.

If I punch you twice it's not going to have same effect if I punch you 10 times, is what you're saying but that logic is false. A single punch is not bound to smash anyones head, but a fist that hits repeatedly will achieve the same effect as if you hammered my skull with a mace.

[Undying]

Now that's the point! Can Byakuya muster enough reiatsu to turn those toothpicks super durable? Talking in toothpicks is lelz :redbiggri
Considering that Byakuya's abilities are flawless, that he's a master of all trades, and that he's battle inclined, and that he's probably trained by the best (hey, he can afford it, you know), I conclude that the answer is YES. Those are some deadly toothpicks der.

Since all damage any impact does is caused by friction, we can conclude that high enough spirit force negates friction since the impact does not have any effect (shown on numerous occasions, shouldn't be anything debatable there eh?). Therefor if one petal will be flattened against Noitoira's body, they all will share the same fate and mass and number become meaningless.
Nope. We've seen that in order to cut someone a lot stronger than someone in Bleach - someone with superior armor, such as Zaraki when Ichigo first met him - one must simply sharpen their power to a point.

Ichigo demonstrates this easily: at first he was hurt by hitting Zaraki, but then he could cut him without being damaged. Considering that Byakuya has flawless abilities and is a master of all trades, I'd say he can sharpen his reiatsu pretty easily.

I mean, even nubby shikai Ichigo could do it...

He was feeling the effect from Zaraki's spirit pressure. Nothing new there.
And therefore was under an illusion from the start. Which means that Zaraki hadn't shunpoed in a blink, it took an undisclosed amount of time.


Nevertheless, you can't prove either of them. I never thought you'd agree with me in the first place, merely pointing out that your reasoning ain't exactly flawless. :winking56
I ain't trying to prove either, y'know? I said they are use to emphasize my actual statements, not that I am actually claiming either, seriously...

[Habanero]

If I punch you twice it's not going to have same effect if I punch you 10 times, is what you're saying but that logic is false.

If your punch stops upon the impact on my skin, 10 more of the same does nothing more :)

Considering that Byakuya's abilities are flawless, that he's a master of all trades, and that he's battle inclined, and that he's probably trained by the best (hey, he can afford it, you know), I conclude that the answer is YES. Those are some deadly toothpicks der.

Of course he can sharpen them to the max, but what is his max? When it comes to dividing his power into countless pieces the cutting power is obviously reduced.

And therefore was under an illusion from the start. Which means that Zaraki hadn't shunpoed in a blink, it took an undisclosed amount of time.

So now you're saying that high spirit pressure creates illusions?

I ain't trying to prove either, y'know? I said they are use to emphasize my actual statements, not that I am actually claiming either, seriously...

They sure came off as facts. A little "I think that..." or "in my opinion..." would soften the claim a bit :)

[diamondedge]

If your punch stops upon the impact on my skin, 10 more of the same does nothing more :)
Wrong. Kenpachi himself is the proof - one slash from Nnoitora did nothing to him, neither did two, but then he stated "if it goes on like this i am going to die."

Yes, the number of times you hit someone DOES matter.

[Undying]

Of course he can sharpen them to the max, but what is his max? When it comes to dividing his power into countless pieces the cutting power is obviously reduced.
Nope. The cutting power is not divided between the petals - it's the AoE that is. Also, as I said earlier, even if they won't cut him, they will smash through him like Yoruichi did with Yammy. She didn't CUT him at any point, she SMASHED through (and got hurt, but SKY won't).

So now you're saying that high spirit pressure creates illusions?
:facepalm:

WhenEVER have I said THAT!? I was using the term illusion since its the general consensus here, but I meant that his senses were confused due to Kenpachi's immense pressure. He says as much - "I feel like we haven't moved at all!" - so I am simply stating that he was under an "illusion" of sorts from the instant he stepped into Zaraki's spiritual pressure area.

The actual instant you are using to back your argument - Ichigo thinking he was stabbed, and then Zaraki "suddenly" appearing behind him - happened after a lengthy amount of time during which Ichigo's senses - time and distance, for example - were already affected by Zaraki's immense power.

So what I'm sayin' is that the illusion - if you want to call it that - lasted for an undisclosed amount of time, and therefore we cannot conclude that Zaraki had indeed took only an instant to get off the roof, since its possible that what Ichigo saw on the roof was caused by his confused senses.

Capisce?


They sure came off as facts. A little "I think that..." or "in my opinion..." would soften the claim a bit :)
My opinion IS fecking fact. When I say something, it's true. It becomes true at once. See, me and Chuck Norris had this agreement - he takes the fame, I take the godhood.

[Habanero]

Wrong. Kenpachi himself is the proof - one slash from Nnoitora did nothing to him, neither did two, but then he stated "if it goes on like this i am going to die."
Yes, the number of times you hit someone DOES matter.

Th