Shinigami levels [Archive]

janti

11-22-2005, 01:45 PM

With the revelation of Ikakku posessing bankai people made a bit of a commotion "this isn't right, only captains should posess it etc." But in my opinon it isn't.

Someone who's seated for some time now and has a moderate amount of reiatsu could have achieved bankai just by training long and hard enough. It's one of the requirments to become captain but that doesn't tell us that much bankai itself. Most of the shinigamis seem proud of their captain thus achieving bankai wouldn't mean they would go and challenge them to take their place, if you follow this line of thougt couldn't it be then that there are some shinigamis other then the captains that have achieved bankai without anyone knowing?

Minami Ikki

11-22-2005, 01:54 PM

You should really put that in spoilers. And it may be right. Ichigo got it and he's a freakin'=...n00b at shinigami..-ing

_Ink

11-22-2005, 02:58 PM

indeed, i believe it is logical to presume that since everybody there is old, like major old, i am sure given a good amount of time, one can attain bankai easily, if it was a matter of reiastu, then not about training, of course, more like how well one can maximize the power of bankai.
Consider if you have lesser reiatsu, you can probably achieve bankai as well, but more approx a smaller or lesser powerful bankai.
much like Renji, who has achieved bankai, but obviuosly it is lesser powerful as his bankai is limited in power. Partly cause by the nature of the zanpakutou as well, which as we can see, he is no match for Byakuya in terms of usability and experience and reiatsu. But the point is, they can achieve bankai, each and everyone could, as long as you are shinigami you can, but also depending whether or not you have a good zanpakutou and decent enough training or time.

Constantine

11-22-2005, 03:35 PM

Why a spoiler?

Its the magna section

=P

I think not only do they need a certain amount of reasitu(sp) but also they need to have somewhat of a close bond with their sword's avatar.

_Ink

11-22-2005, 03:49 PM

spoiler just in case some noob can't understand the difference between a manga and a anime is totally different....
(it happens, you people know what to do so it is alright, just press to read thats all...)

close bond is not i think, i do not think there is a need for that, obviously i doubt Ichigo has a close bond with Zangetsu consider how many times he failed his expectations to use him properly...until now that is....

Sir_unforgiven

11-22-2005, 06:05 PM

he still doesn't have to put it in spoilers, i think it was also said that only certain people have the ability to achieve bankai

MVIK

11-22-2005, 06:10 PM

Any Shinigami can obtain Bankai. It's just up to them to see if they're not afraid of hard training...sorta. But it's a requirement to be a Captain.

Fect

11-22-2005, 07:31 PM

It's all speculation: and besides -

By the end of this, Yumichicha will have spilled his own secret probably.

GeneYuss

11-22-2005, 08:20 PM

Notice that all the info we have about only "Captains can have Bankai" all comes from the most arrogant guy in the series, so I would assume the info is somewhat biased.

Sandal Hat

11-22-2005, 08:27 PM

Polygon

11-22-2005, 09:01 PM

It is only stated that all captains have bankai. It doesn't say that VC's can't have it too. A VC could have bankai but not be able to defeat his captain and might not even want to. So, I agree

Edit: I don't see why they would keep there bankai a secret

Ya Bankai is a great honor. There names will remain etched itched in history forever. there is no reason to hide it.

ultimate

11-22-2005, 10:13 PM

It is only stated that all captains have bankai. It doesn't say that VC's can't have it too. A VC could have bankai but not be able to defeat his captain and might not even want to. So, I agree

Edit: I don't see why they would keep there bankai a secret yeh i agree with that, a vice captain may have bankai but not want to or unable to defeat their captain... for 11th division, i wonder if zaraki knows that ikkaku has a bankai, i hope that yumichika [spelling?...] doesnt have bankai, that would be weird but i wouldnt be surprised if he had one since ikkaku seems to have one now... btw i am sure that yumichika's shikai ability will probably be found out by somebody soon

Jinx20

11-22-2005, 10:19 PM

Well if Im not mistaken, doesnt Byakuya say that only a handful in every generation achieve bankai?

Polygon

11-22-2005, 10:22 PM

Well if Im not mistaken, doesnt Byakuya say that only a handful in every generation achieve bankai?

And a generation is every 1000 years lol. But everyone has the capability t achieve bankai. It is just the degree of dificulity. The amount of reitsu does matter or else everyone would be walking around with bankai. But the more important thing is the understanding of your soul slayer. You need to have enoughf reitsu and physical capabiltiies to be able to use your bankai bafore you use it.

ras1011

11-22-2005, 11:38 PM

Well, defeating the current captain of a division and having Bankai isn't the only ways of becoming a captain. What was is, 1) Recommended by 6 and accepted by 9? Or something to that effect? Aside from the desire to become the strongest (they can become in some aspects) it does get certain people a step closer to becoming captain if indeed they want to.

Well if Im not mistaken, doesnt Byakuya say that only a handful in every generation achieve bankai?

Considering the amount of people you probably have in each division and the fact that anyone seated can get more than 5min's of screen time without getting beaten to a bloody pulp and/or killed (Rukia is the exception) we only do see a handful of people.

Ikkaku having Bankai is alright, but him going up against Zaraki would be a little too early. I think Ikkaku would try it, to measure his own strength but he'd be a fool to do it without Bankai.

jonat3

11-23-2005, 12:11 AM

Ikkaku is hiding his bankai, he specifcally stated this. I have read several translations, including M7's which all say that Ikkaku is hiding his bankai.

There are perhaps 2 reasons the would hide his bankai:
1. Zaraki's former philosophy on working together with the sword, which is necesary for bankai
2. If he reveals he has bankai, he may get killed by either Yachiru or Zaraki (literally or figuratively, take your pick :p)

Ikkaku has likely trained the necesary 10 years to gain bankai (like Renji did) and it's possible he may have had it as far back as the fight with Ichigo. He didn't use it then, cause people might have noticed him using it.

Polygon

11-23-2005, 12:12 AM

Nooo. THey know he has shinkai.

jonat3

11-23-2005, 12:16 AM

Nooo. THey know he has shinkai.

Yes, they know he has shikai, so i don't think 1 is true. I'm more thinking that he's afraid of Zaraki and Yachiru knowing, so he's hiding his bankai.

Darkness_becomes (me)

11-23-2005, 12:20 AM

Why would he be afraid of them knowing?

Sandal Hat

11-23-2005, 12:23 AM

What if Ikkaku has just gained like Renji did and maybe still needs some practice at it. Or it could be what you said, both or plausible ideas. You could also back it up by saying that since Yumichika is hazardous to show his shikai ability then ofcourse they are going to be secretive of there bankai

Edit: Because in the 11th division ppl are considered cowards if they work with there sword

jonat3

11-23-2005, 12:24 AM

Why would he be afraid of them knowing?

Not sure actually. There a reference in a former chapter where Matsumoto said that Ikkaku should behave or she would tell Yachiru something, so it seems to me that matsumoto may know he has bankai. If Ikkaku doesn't want Yachiru to know, a possibility is that Yachiru may choose to torture Ikkaku or something disgusting for Ikkaku attaining bankai earlier than her (a possibility, but may be something else).

Sandal Hat

11-23-2005, 12:30 AM

The 11th division disowns anyone who works in conjunction with there Soul Slayer (just incase someone missed my edit)

I think that Ikkaku has just gotten his bankai, unless he was prepared to die than use bankai against Ichigo

jonat3

11-23-2005, 12:36 AM

Not sure what Zaraki's stance on working together with his sword is now since the fight with Ichigo. It seemed he finally accepted that a sword was not just a tool.

Anyways, it could just be that Ikkaku is afraid of Zaraki "checking out" his new power. Ikkaku may just want to live a few days longer. :p

_Ink

11-23-2005, 01:06 AM

I Doubt There Is A Disowning Included When You Achive Bankai In 11th Division.
That Is More Like Something That Said And Done By Kenpachi, He Sets Those Somewhat Rules, But Because He Achieved Captain Status Doesn't Mean He Can Do And Get Rid Of His Own Members, However, He Can Make Sure Ikkaku Is His Best Training Partner..(literally Killing Him For Fun)
However, Since Becoming Captain, It Does Not Mean That He Can Just Get Rid Of People Right? So I Assume It Is A Mean To Hide It From Kenpachi So It Would Not Make Him A Target For Practice And Make Sure He Will Not Suspect Him For Treason Or Insubordination

Sandal Hat

11-23-2005, 01:22 AM

Which is what I meant, but thanks for elaborating :)

And disowning ppl does not mean kicking them out of your division. Zaraki would just lose respect he has for him. Note, this is before the Ichigo and Zaraki fight.

Polygon

11-23-2005, 01:22 AM

Kenpachi is not evil. He could care less if Ikkaku gets bankai. Unless his bankai has some weid ability. But I'm preetty sure he got it just recently.

Unrefined-Nemesis

11-23-2005, 01:38 AM

I Think That Kubo Tite Is Trying To Get Three Shimigami's To Have Bankai And Replace The 3 Missing Captain Spots Which Used To Belong To Aizen, Ichimaru And Tousen. This Is Just My Theory Anyway...

Polygon

11-23-2005, 01:58 AM

I Think That Kubo Tite Is Trying To Get Three Shimigami's To Have Bankai And Replace The 3 Missing Captain Spots Which Used To Belong To Aizen, Ichimaru And Tousen. This Is Just My Theory Anyway...

I like that theory a lot actually.

GeneYuss

11-23-2005, 02:14 AM

Hansy

11-23-2005, 03:07 AM

I was kinda irritated he had bankai. By the way they describe bankai originally (training for 10 years). He should be able to have it, however. Then 'almost' every seated shinigami should have had it when Ichigo came in, then however, Byakuya says you also have to have a l33t reiatsu to achieve bankai, which is why Ichigo shouldn't have 'ever' been able to achieve it and why alot of shinigami didn't at that point. Since I think you have to have a huge enough reiatsu to even start training (which takes along time unless you are like Byakuya and from a noble family.) and then its 10 years, or thats my theory at least. But as transition between leaving soul society and the arankaru attack didn't seem like very long. I was annoyed that Ikkaku had gotten it so fast. (Although not nearly the amount as when Ichigo beat Byakuya >>).

Although it could just mean bankai wasn't as hard to get as it seemed, although it 'did' say mostly just captains had it. What I think however is that as we've seen many shikai's. Kubo Tite is trying to add variety by giving mass bankai. (Whether or not to fill the captain slots like stated above I have no idea.) Unfortunately, the levels of the shinigami have to abruply rise as well, making it seem kinda unrealistic.

Darkness_becomes (me)

11-23-2005, 03:25 AM

Wren

11-23-2005, 03:28 AM

justx645

11-23-2005, 03:43 AM

It makes sense for Ikkaku to have bankai. The man is in the 11th division. They fight ALL THE TIME. He has been training like a madman for lord knows how long. He probably reached a point of being close to bankai a long time ago, perhaps even achieved it long ago, but didn't want to use it because the 11th division is all about overpowering with combat ability, not with zanpaku-to release. He probably has had it for a while but was just using it as an ace-in-the-hole. He would only bring it out if he absolutely needed it. In his fight against Ichigo, it was a mainly combat oriented fight. No special abilities were being used, so Ikkaku didn't bring out his bankai because he figured he didn't need it/he wanted to overpower ichigo with his combat ability only. It makes sense to me to say that Ikkaku is really powerful, seeing as he is the second strongest guy in the 11th division. Ichigo was just that much more powerful.

lmegera

11-23-2005, 04:50 AM

I dont think everyone can achieve Bankai. Byakura expressly said that only those born into the noble families, thus meaning that they have a high potential for reiatsu, can achieve bankai or achieve it after decades of struggle. Ichigo was able to achieve bankai so quickly because of his high reiatsu potential, that maybe due to the fact that if Shiba Kaien is reincarnated in Ichigo, since Kaien was part of the Four Noble Families.

zembu

11-23-2005, 04:55 AM

not only does byakuya metion that bankai candidates come from noble families but he says that there is one only in a few generations withing the noble family

Hansy

11-23-2005, 05:09 AM

True, but that is obviously untrue, 'every' captain has bankai (as well as others now), and they arn't all from noble families, so that can only be untrue.

lmegera

11-23-2005, 05:15 AM

Hmm? How you do know theyre not all from noble families? The only one i can think of is Kenpachi and he killed the former 11th division captain in a fight to bypass the test.

Darkness_becomes (me)

11-23-2005, 05:27 AM

I think he said that only one from a noble family every few generations achieves bankai.

lmegera

11-23-2005, 05:37 AM

True, and the noble families are specially endowed with a higher reiatsu, making it easier for them to achieve bankai..
So its like practically impossible to achieve bankai unless youre already given a high potential for reiatsu... so not everyone achieves bankai...

Hansy

11-23-2005, 05:49 AM

I know they are not all from noble families for a couple reasons. First, Tousen wasn't even normally a shinigami. So I highly doubt he is. Komamura was taken in out of nowhere by Yama-jii, so he's not. Renji is from one of the poorest places ever and he got it. And alot of the other ones just probably arn't. I think nobles just have a way easier time, because they have a higher potential and initial reiatsu, but it seems with enough training anyone can do it.

ras1011

11-23-2005, 07:13 AM

What could be happening is that Kubo is trying to show that changes are happening in the Bleach world that go against tradition. Things like:

1) Multiple non-captain shinigamai having Bankai (when one would assume that they are not able to achieve that level of power)
2) There is a wide variety of power difference between people and their Bankai (Like Byakuya vs. Renji vs. Ichigo)
3) Nothing is set in stone as the introduction of Ichigo to SS has disrupted a LOT of different standards and thought processes.

So Bankai being available to a lot of the higher seated Shinigami is ok, I guess. It is the ultimate technique for a Shinigami but I think what's overlooked is that it's the ultimate technique for THAT particular Shinigami. For all we know, Komamura might be stronger than Ichimaru but we don't know that.

As far as Byakuya saying that only a handful of people can hope to achieve it and even less actually do it, well, I think that's more of the old school of thought as far as SS is concerned. Coming from his position, I believe it's hard to accept that someone like Ichigo was able to achieve Bankai, let alone a bunch of people being able to have achieve it. Remember, he comes from one of the 4 main families and since he can remember, only some have been able to gain Bankai. If there's anyone he'd probably accept that's not from a noble house, it'd probably be Hitsugaya since he's supposed to be the 1000year genius.

I do like that theory that these seated officers might take the place of the captains that have fled. 3 captains gone and so far 2 seated officers have Bankai. Almost fits...

But I think it'd be helpful if we knew what those divisions actually DID! Then we might see where they could fit as captain and such...just a thought.

Unrefined-Nemesis

11-23-2005, 01:05 PM

I don't know about Ikkaku becoming a captain. I can definately see that happen to Renji, especially since they've made him into such a major character... but Ikkaku lost to Ichigo... oh well. If they DID do that, then the 11th division's 5th seat (assuming that he's got Bankai as well) might replace Aizen, since it's a kidoh-type Zankputou. Matsumoto probably has Bankai, since Ikkaku does, but I can't see her leaving Hitsugaya's side... I honestly see Urahara becoming a captain again, and possibly Isshin.

I Like Your Theory On The Urahara And Isshin Becoming Captains, Since It Was First urahara Who develop the thing that enables aizen to create hybrids, therefore urahara becoming a captain again is good since urahara has the most understanding on the stone he created and its limitations as for isshin becoming captain is also possible because of his huge spiritual pressure...

Sir_unforgiven

11-23-2005, 09:46 PM

i don't think kenpachi ever said he would disown anyone in the 11th who worked with their zanpakuto, i know he said that using words like "i'm borrowing my swords strength" was for pussy's and not for real fighters, but that's only his personal opinion and he wouldn't care if somone in his squad did it he'd just call them a pussy but his views may have changed since he has seen the power increase it gives you, what the 11th does hate is demon art based zanpakuto they think all swords should be for direct attacks, so i'm thinking ikkaku maybe hid his bankai because it is kidou based.

Unrefined-Nemesis

11-24-2005, 10:02 AM

Didn't Ikkaku Mention In The Manga And In The Anime That He Wasn't Good At Kidou Arts, The Possiblities Of Ikkaku Having A Kidou Based Bankai Would Be Totally Wrong...

lingdan

11-24-2005, 03:04 PM

erm... they got bankai... probably most of the seated shinigamis that had stay the position for long... and they are not a captain because you all forgot that they have to beat their captain to gain the captain position... so maybe their bankai are not that strong enough or they still doesn't have enough training wif their bankai on.. LOL