S.A.S. vs. Marines - S.W.A.T. vs. Marines

[Musashidensu]

-due to popular demand, S.A.S. vs. Marines, has been added to the discussion.-

S.W.A.T. VS MARINES

S.A.S. VS MARINES

Who would win in a shootout between a S.W.A.T. team vs. a Marine Infantry.

-and-

Who would win in a war between the S.A.S vs. The Marines?

There are 2 parts to this debate.

1. Who would win in an urban environment? (Inside houses, Street shootouts, Tight corners, lots of civilians/hostages. )

2. Who would win in an open environment? (Middle of a forest, Desert, etc.)


My opinion:

1. S.W.A.T.
- They are trained specially for urban environments. They would definetly give the marines a run for their money.

2. Marines.
- They are more trained for open environments.


Discuss!

[Icestorm]

First of all, why is this JUST American forces? Where are the special forces, like SAS and SOG's?

But in answer to the debate I think that your incorrect in saying that the S.W.A.T. would win in an urban environment since thats what they are always experiencing and are trained for, but the problem lies in the fact that the Marines are more trained in fire fights than the S.W.A.T. Since Marines experience combat on a military level but the S.W.A.T normally dont get as much exposure to that kind of environment.

So the question lies, would S.W.A.T out gun Marines in a proper fire fight?

[Rorschach]

First of all, why is this JUST American forces? Where are the special forces, like SAS and SOG's?

Thats all he knows? Plus S.A.S., S.O.G.s or mall security would mop the floor with marines.

So the question lies, would S.W.A.T out gun Marines in a proper fire fight?
No, Marines have superior weaponry and tactics, and are pretty good with their rifles (every Marine is a riflemen).

I don't see how this is a debatable subject though as those two have entirely different roles.

[Musashidensu]

First of all, why is this JUST American forces? Where are the special forces, like SAS and SOG's?

Not to offend you or anything, but the SAS wouldn't stand a chance in hell against the Marines. lol. They are more of a reconnaissance team in my honest opinion. But lets keep this debate between the U.S. Armed forces. =P

Ice - sorry I accidently edited your post instead of quoted.. Many apologies. Im still getting used to having mod powers all over the forum >.>

Musa - Lols I see. Don't worry about it. :P

[Icestorm]

I agree entirely. Marines a trained in military combat, rather S.W.A.T are trained in urban disputes.. I mean whats some crazy bastard with a shotgun, to a group of military militia hell bent on blowing the shit out of everyone with AK47's and car bombs. I think thats the main difference, experience.

[Musashidensu]

whoa...icestorm...why did you just deleted half of my post?....you could have just edited yours....

[Icestorm]

Not to offend you or anything, but the SAS wouldn't stand a chance in hell against the Marines. lol. They are more of a reconnaissance team in my honest opinion. But lets keep this debate between the U.S. Armed forces. =P

Are you mad? The SAS are the best military unit there is. They are called Special Forces for a reason, they are the elite of the elite, not just plain reconnaissance as you say. They carry out all the missions too difficult for the normal grunts to handle. The SAS of Britain or Australia would totally destroy a marine group. Its pretty much common knowledge.

[Musashidensu]

Are you mad? The SAS are the best military unit there is. They are called Special Forces for a reason, they are the elite of the elite, not just plain reconnaissance as you say. They carry out all the missions too difficult for the normal grunts to handle. The SAS of Britain or Australia would totally destroy a marine group. Its pretty much common knowledge.

lol...you can't be serious man...the SAS wouldn't stand a chance against the Marines...The united States has a reputation for having the best Armed Forces in the world. :P But I think you're just being patriotic and I respect that. So lets leave it at that. XD

Back to SWAT vs. Marines?

[Miyata]

This may be off topic, but the SAS would honestly wipe the floor with any other military unit out there.

The US may have the best "Armed Forces", but as a unit, the SAS is greater than any military unit the US has. Sure they may have more men or different regiments, but the SAS in itself is the elite of the elite. So the US may be the biggest, but the SAS are the best.

Now back on topic, I guess the Marines and SWAT would just win in their respective areas. No real terrain to compare them on, unless there was some sort of urban-y open hybrid. And in that case, you would need someone with extended knowledge of both sides to put a proper argument forward. So I guess it's just who has more ammo, or more men.

[Musashidensu]

Okay lets make this a SAS VS. Marine topic too since some of you seem interested in discussing it :P

*edits first post and topic title*

[Rorschach]

Are you mad? The SAS are the best military unit there is. They are called Special Forces for a reason, they are the elite of the elite, not just plain reconnaissance as you say. They carry out all the missions too difficult for the normal grunts to handle. The SAS of Britain or Australia would totally destroy a marine group. Its pretty much common knowledge.
Depends on numbers, terrain, and what equipment is at hand. Just because the S.A.S. is an elite special forces unit doesn't mean they'll just wipe out the marines easily. I agree that the S.A.S. (or any comparable group) are among the best at what they do, and have some of the best soldiers, but they aren't invincible (and could just as easily be overwhelmed by Marines).

But meh I don't really like these topics, because they just boil down into nationalistic "Oh yeah, well my dad can beat your dad," kinda thing.

[Icestorm]

Well put it as a comparison of a S.A.S unit (1) v.s a Marine unit (1)

[Artemis]

SAS are trained for all terrain.
Meaning that they are suited for both urban and open areas.

British SAS are more elite than the USMC.
Meaning they have higher standards.

The US is known for having the best armed forces in the world, but special forces in a totally different thing when it comes to calling the US as the best.

In my opinion, SAS > USMC
Not sure about NZ SAS, but for Aus and English SAS, you can't beat them with Marines.

[Musashidensu]

^ That may be, but there is another armed forces in the US that is even more elite than the marines. The Navy SEALS. And no, they don't only do in-water missions. They also do all terrain.

[Artemis]

SAS are equipped to do HAHO and HALO jumps, land and sea.
So, they're just as all-terrain as your SEALs.

And this is between Marines and the SAS.
Not to mention, that the SEALs and the British SAS selections are pretty much equal in eliteness give or take.

[Vampyrelord]

SAS would win hands down, there are only about 200 of them because they are *really* elite.

Oh, and this isn't a debate. By any stretch of the imagination.

/moved

[Dradam]

Ok the Royal Marine commandos would kick the american's marines asses, and since many members of the SAS are drawn from the best of the RMC; they will also kick the Marine's asses.
That and naturally because the ones that aren't drawn from the RMC and paratroopers are all drawn from scottish divisions make them the hardest f*ckers in the world...
Trying to compare a standard frontline american unit with the British special forces is not a challenge at all; but then again, you've got more of a chance with the US marines then you do with the Rangers, D-boys, or even seal...

[Musashidensu]

Oh, and this isn't a debate. By any stretch of the imagination.

/moved

what the hell are you talking about? this IS a debate. We're debating to see who would win between armed/special forces.

[deto]

its a though one, it always depends on intelligence, terrain and support...

the US has a lot of elite units; deltas, green berets, seals, soc, marines and so on. also the US has the 2nd most experience in war, right behind the legion. however i say the SAS is the mother of all special and covert forces (trained to survive in any given environment, even alone if it has to be) but comparing them isn't really easy, everyone of them has a speciality and different areas of expertise. plus other special units are catching up fast (KSK, Jaegerkorps, SASR, Gebirgsjaeger, NZSAS,...)
and we shouldn't forget most now established special units learned from the SAS, however a lot of SAS soldiers acknowlege that delta operators are the worlds best at CQB (close quaters battle) (on a sidenote Col. Beckwith, got his ideas from SAS when he formed delta, he learned quite a good deal of those lads)


the reason why the us has the best armed forces is because their support and logistics is top notch. without support and locistics in war you're f*ed

as for SWAT, in my opinion between military units and police tactical teams (GIGN, GSG9, ETF, RAID, SEK, HRT ...) is a huge difference and can never really be compared. SWAT has one goal, which is to protect as many as possible. best thing for them is if the CNT can handle it without a breach. so a SWAT unit uses sub machine guns for close ranges, whereas military units can muster a far bigger firepower.


little recommendation; "The Real Bravo Two Zero" by Michael Asher, it describes the events of the 8 man patrol of the now famous SAS landed behind enemy lines in Iraq during the gulf war. a good read.

[Sarteck]

what the hell are you talking about? this IS a debate. We're debating to see who would win between armed/special forces.

Read the stickies in "Debates". Heh. Debates are not "versus" threads. I could post a "Goku vs. Splinter" thread and call it a debate, but it's more of a "who will win" type of thread. Such is the theme of this thread, which is why it's not a Debate.

[Personally, when I was a Debate Mod, I moved all Versus threads to Randomness.]

[mthegreatone]

But meh I don't really like these topics, because they just boil down into nationalistic "Oh yeah, well my dad can beat your dad," kinda thing.

QFT

[Graffik]

Lol, I read the first 5 posts, and was like wtf, same thing quoted 6 times.

The SAS would beat the US Marines in both terrains, however the Navy Seals I digress is another story, there it would come down to numbers in my opinion.

I got to ask though, wth is the SWAT doing there, they'd be ripped apart by any Military force even Blackwater. Even LA's SWAT team, arguably the best in the US wouldn't be capable of taking them on.

The SWAT is trained for taking out a relatively small [10 - 30 at most] group of armed hostiles, and secure hostages. The marines are trained to take out a Military force [some couple hundred to couple thousand] and securing entire zones, and regions.

The SWAT would be swatted simply for attempting to compete, it's a fly and a bear like comparison. SAS would take the marines out because of the experience and training they have, elite soldiers aren't elite for nothing. They handle more tense tasks.

[Manchester Black]

Not to offend you or anything, but the SAS wouldn't stand a chance in hell against the Marines. lol. They are more of a reconnaissance team in my honest opinion.

S.R.R. does a lot of that.

Anyway as for S.W.A.T. vs Marines? Pretty easy choice as most people have figured out. S.W.A.T. is not trained for the kind of firepower and tactics the Marines would present to them. End of story.

S.A.S. vs Marines is also a pretty easy choice in my opinion. The Marines aren't as specially trained as the S.A.S. and aren't considered as "elite" of a fighting force. The S.A.S. is pretty much the best of the best. And don't think I'm a Brit in here just trying to stand up for my countries special forces unit. I'm not; I'm American. A relatively easy way to figure it out in your head would be to first ask yourself a different question. Who would win if it were Navy SEALs vs Marines? Most people would obvious choose the SEALs. Now the S.A.S. is in my opinion equal to or above the SEALs, so there's you answer to the S.A.S. vs Marines question.

[Vampyrelord]

what the hell are you talking about? this IS a debate. We're debating to see who would win between armed/special forces.

lol, like Sarteck said, read the Debate section rules.

We permit 'out of the box' debates, and informal debates, but only if they can be debated 'properly' ie with evidence, rebuttals, serious points and so on.

Debates which are simply a "Ichigo vs Ulquiorra" or "PSP vs Wii" style of discussion simply do not have room for proper debating and are just matters of personal preference...

[Capt Kenpachi]

You've got it all wrong little man. S.W.A.T. would loose in either enviroment. Marines are trained to fight in all enviroments and have a lot more combat experience then S.W.A.T.. Most of the jobs that S.W.A.T. reports to ends without a shot being fired, when the Marines are called in it always ends with gun fire. Another thing, do you know how effective a Marine Sniper is? A team of 4 Marine snipers kept an entire division pinned down from moving in a training ecersice.

S.A.S would win. The S.A.S rival the SEALs in special fores capability. In WWII the S.A.S kept a large portion of the Luffwafe grounded in Africa and Europe by doing hit and run tactics on the airfieds which kept the Luffwafe from flying. If you think that Marine are trained well then you ave another thing coming for you. All S.A.S come from the Royal Marines. Meaning they get some of the best Marine training on the planet and then the one of the best Special Forces training on the planet. In a hostage situtaion in Germeny in the late 60's Germany had nothing that they could use to recapture a plane that had been hijacked and was parked on a German runway, they called up the U.K. and one S.A.S troop was sent over and did what no one in Germany could do.


Let enought be said.

[Kuroudo]

^ Im agreeing with Kenpachi

Considring that the SWAT are called in to mantain control in a situation as Police Forces jobs are to not kill the criminal but to avoid all fighting as possible and take the criminal into custody wtihout any harm on either side. Though SWAT have strong training and tatics, the Marines are stronger in those departments. Marines are called in for either recon or battle. Marine forces are well coordinated as the intense training of marines are nearly double that of SWATs. Also that Marines have more firepower than a group of SWAT. SWAT would usually have a sniper, MP5, mostly SMG's and small amount of Military Rifles. Also considring that SWAT only fight in Urban enviorments, but even though SWAT was in its own turf since the 1990's new training has been given to the armed forces for modern-day urban combat meaning they are prepared to fight in a suburban neighborhood to a large city like NYC.

SAS would really beat the marines even if we do have the best military in the world. the S.A.S is probably the most skilled special operations force ive ever seen. a small team of at least 6 people can eleminate an entire platoon of regular soldiers. The S.A.S's indoor and Urban combat is unmatched for i've seen in a pratice hostage fight the door was locked 4 men inside with night vision in a dark room. a hostage was in the middle tied to a chair. With just 2 men the S.A.S cleared the room in 3 seconds with not a single rubber bullet on the hostage. I'd Say that the S.A.S even if they are outnumbered by the marines make up for their small size in incridible training. The marines are a strong force to be reckoned with but they are a Recon force used to destroy the enemy quickly and for major battles. Though they fight the enemy head on. Even they Cannot match what the S.A.S has done fighting behind enemy lines with a small group fending off hundereds of soldiers on their own.

[deto]

The S.A.S's indoor and Urban combat is unmatched ...

however a lot of SAS soldiers acknowlege that delta operators are the worlds best at CQB

pew pew

[Kuroudo]

^Thats Delta Force^

Delta Force= Basicaly the American S.A.S, or you can just call them the American Special Forces, other than the SEALS.

but remember this is the Marines vs S.A.S Marines are tougher than your average soldier as they're used for recon and quick strikes. There is a difference between marines and Delta Force.