[Manga Spoilers] Urahara vs Ulquiorra [Archive]

Undying

03-18-2008, 11:42 PM

Feel free to move this post and merge it with my post in the respective Urahara VS Ulq thread :).

Zaraki lost to shikai Ichigo, but he was able to defeat the 5th Espada.
Where is the proof that Shikai Ichigo cannot defeat Nnoitora? According to some, Ichigo's bankai doesn't give him any new power, but only speed. Considering that Nnoitora was in fact a former 8 (his power seemingly didn't grow, as he says he needed skill to beat the former 3rd), and that his "superior ability" was nothing more than highest defense (which is relatively useless the instant someone can sharpen their power enough to slice through it), and regeneration (which failed afte rthree consecutive uses, hence it's useless), I see no reason why a fresh Shikai Ichigo could not beat Nnoitora.

Byakuya lost to bankai Ichigo, but he was able to defeat the 8th Espada.
Byakuya was in a better fighting condition than Ichigo in the end. Also, Ichigo's only superior asset to Byakuya was speed, nothing more, therefore making this loss slightly dubious.

Also, none of the two above situations (Zaraki/Byakuya losing to Ichigo) give any indication of their true strength, as both wasted a lengthy time conversing and Ichigo was defended by his plotkai.

I have no trouble believing that Urahara could be Ulquiorra based on the fact that these Captains "lost" to Ichigo but still managed to pwn their respective Espadas.
The power that Ulqiorra displayed puts that claim to shame. Ulq wasn't even scratched by a Vizard+Bankai GT, whereas Urahara would have been damaged by Ichigo's most basic attack. Just the difference in their respective defenses is something to ponder.

So using Ichigo as a measuring stick is not the right thing to do.
No, of course not. Using the power people demonstrated is, though.

I'll repeat what I said in my post there (feel free to move it here and merge it).

The defensive power they demonstrated is insanely different. People hang on Urahara's "my bankai is too dangerous for training" statement too much.

The power demonstrated by the captains against Ichigo is of course not an indication of their true power. However, the power Ulqiorra demonstrated against Ichigo by just blocking a single attack is already lightyears above what anyone demonstrated.

Ulqiorra was not even scratched after that attack. Urahara said he'd lose an arm if he was hit by Ichigo's still-nameless, most basic Getsuga Tenshou. Their defense is hugely different.

As for attacking; Ulqiorra slapped away Urahara's attack easily, and moved in too quickly for Urahara to react. Assuming they were facing off against each other, Ulqiorra can increase his already well-demonstrated superior ability exponentially.

Unless Urahara's bankai is a convenient, "I has your one and only weakness" ability, his demonstrations so far put him under Ulqiorra. Especially if said Arrancar is a VL.

Seff vi Britannia

03-18-2008, 11:47 PM

Ulquiorra is my favourite character, and Urahara would win - based on his implied strength. If Zaraki can pwn Nnoitra, Urahara (far stronger than Zaraki) can beat Ulquiorra - who is stronger than Nnoitra. The power gap is large, given that Ichigo, at a pinch and with some plotkai, could have beaten Nnoitra (in my opinion) but Ulquiorra raped him pretty much one-handed, but i still think Urahara would win.

Just remember that most fights involving Urahara are pointless because we don't really know how strong he is.

*some people* argued that Byakuya could beat Ulquiorra, and now you're saying Urahara can't?

8-)

bludd

03-19-2008, 12:42 AM

man I have to get in here, ok ulquiorra is strong we all know, but we've seen him do this many times, if he feels like killing someone he does. I think he knows that he can't beat urahara, that's why he never fights him, urahara is an ex-captain, which is unrelenting strength and he is a genius. When ichigo's reatsu started fluctuating ulquiorra said that it was even higher than his. I just feel ulquiorra is fast and strong but not on urahara's level yet.

Chi

03-19-2008, 12:52 AM

Look the Ulq vs Ichigo fight was one sided. Ichigo just ran like hell to get away from Panini after he wooped up on him. So he was tired. I hypothesize that when ichigo faced Ulq he was already at 50% because of the hits he took from panini and him putting on the mask and taking it off again. If he was healthy and at 100% putting on the mask would shoot him up at 200%. Since he was at 50% putting on the mask at most gave him 110%. So he was only slightly stronger then he would have been with just regular bankai. And that 10% surprised Ulq and tathered his clothing. So him going all out against Ulq at that stage was pretty much a hopeless battle.

Now Urahara is strong and may or may not be a vizard. But the reason why I think he can seriously beat Ulq is because he has the ability to match the amount of power anyone puts out. The cero that Ulq blocked had the same output strength of Yami's cero he fired at Yoroichi and Orihime at close range and he did it without breaking a sweat. To me the fact that Ulq blocked it means nothing but the fact that Urahara in shikai can generate that much power as a close range cero by an espada... does. And thats why i think if Urahara in Bankai can beat Ulq Vaste Lorde or not.

Also if you need more refrence look at the difference in power between Grimmjow and Ichigo when Grimmjow first fought Ichigo then look at the difference in power between Ulq vs Ichigo. Then Ichigo beats grimmjow's released state, then noitra shows up after he was exhausted. A fully healed Ichigo vs Ulq would turn out different now i think.

Rayster

03-19-2008, 01:06 AM

Look the Ulq vs Ichigo fight was one sided. Ulq just ran like hell to get away from Panini after he wooped up on him.
Ulq ran away?

You mean ichigo

And no, Ichigo didn't run away.

He was hit by a CERO, which sent him flying away. And THEN he ran.

Even when ichigo was hit by the CERO, he had his vaizard mask ON. Ulquiorra mentions this later. And I've already said this to you in another thread.

So he was tired. I hypothesize that when ichigo faced Ulq he was already at 50% because of the hits he took from panini and him putting on the mask and taking it off again.
This is totally unfounded, and should be disregarded by all posters.

You cannot say ichigo was anywhere near a low amount as 50%.

And how do I know this?

Because Ichigo, at 100% - that's after being healed by Inoue, ONLY JUST BARELY managed to defeat Grimmjow, who's 6th. See the tiny amount of mask remaining at the eye when he dealt the "fatal" blow?

And Ulquiorra has showed his difference to Grimmjow in ch236, and other times. Not to mention he's two ranks above, and probably a higher tier of Arrancar.

Anyway, now that I got all those falsehoods out of the way:

Urahara would win.

If the 4th Espada is as strong a tier as the ranks which Urahara belongs to due to plot (that is, in the league of Isshin, Ryuuken, Kyouraku and Ukitake) then the good guys are rolled.

May not be that easy, but Urahara should definitely win.

Chi

03-19-2008, 01:15 AM

Ulq ran away?

You mean ichigo

And no, Ichigo didn't run away. Ichigo ran from panini not Ulq your getting my timing confused

He was hit by a CERO, which sent him flying away. And THEN he ran.

Even when ichigo was hit by the CERO, he had his vaizard mask ON. Ulquiorra mentions this later. And I've already said this to you in another thread.

This is totally unfounded, and should be disregarded by all posters.

You cannot say ichigo was anywhere near a low amount as 50%.
And again I was reffering to right before he fought Ulq not grimmjow
And how do I know this?

Because Ichigo, at 100% - that's after being healed by Inoue, ONLY JUST BARELY managed to defeat Grimmjow, who's 6th. See the tiny amount of mask remaining at the eye when he dealt the "fatal" blow?

And Ulquiorra has showed his difference to Grimmjow in ch236, and other times. Not to mention he's two ranks above, and probably a higher tier of Arrancar.

Anyway, now that I got all those falsehoods out of the way:
You completely confused everything I posted sorry to inform you of this. I'll try to post clearer for you

Urahara would win.

If the 4th Espada is as strong a tier as the ranks which Urahara belongs to due to plot (that is, in the league of Isshin, Ryuuken, Kyouraku and Ukitake) then the good guys are rolled.

May not be that easy, but Urahara should definitely win.

There you go... look it over everything in blue i wrote.

Undying

03-19-2008, 01:19 AM

Ichigo was running from the execution squad, true.

But how does that bring his power down to 50%? He used the mask for a mere instant, and yet it drained him that much?

It drained 1/11 of his overall power. How do I know? 11 seconds max, and he used it for barely a second.

That's not enough to make a valid difference.

Ulqiorra wasn't even hurt by a full-powered Vaizard Ichigo.

Rayster

03-19-2008, 01:22 AM

And again I was reffering to right before he fought Ulq not grimmjow
I know. My point was that it's ridiculous to assume he was 50% when he fought Ulq. That's totally unfounded. You cannot use that kind of spec. That's why i was comparing him to the GRimmjow fight.

If ichigo was at 100% vs Grimmjow, and hardly beat him, you honestly think he was 50% vs Ulquoirra? That's just impossible. If anything, Bleach doesn't cater to this "after a fight you're slightly worn down"

It's not an RPG

Even so, it wouldn't have sunk to 50%. If would have been minus 5-10%. He hardly did anything against the Privaron.

If he WAS at 50%, Ulq's CERO would've wiped him.

You completely confused everything I posted sorry to inform you of this. I'll try to post clearer for you
Refer above. You obviously didn't understand what I said.

It drained 1/11 of his overall power. How do I know? 11 seconds max, and he used it for barely a second.

That's not enough to make a valid difference.

Ulqiorra wasn't even hurt by a full-powered Vaizard Ichigo.
QFT

@Love-chi: That's why your theory of "at 50%" is even more absurd, when it was absurd to begin with

Even though I support Urahara here, to use such incorrect and wild assumptions is wrong to cater to his win.

Chi

03-19-2008, 01:29 AM

Because of the damage he took from fighting Dordoni, its a culmulitive effect even if he was 70-80% minus the loss of power from 1/11 seconds from the mask. he's still not at 100% when he faced Ulq and this thread isn't about that.

Rayster

03-19-2008, 01:32 AM

But you're using it to say that THAT is the reason that Urahara would beat Ulq.

Which shouldn't be used, because it's completely false. Ichigo was nowhere near 50%, and I even went to the length to prove why. He fought the 6th and hardly won, when he was at 100%

Don't get me wrong, we're on the same side - that Urahara would win.

But to use such things only puts it AGAINST our favour. So don't use it, because its blatantly incorrect and will only damage our point of view that Urahara would win.

DreadCall

03-19-2008, 01:33 AM

First thing to note is that we know so little about Urahara that this is pure speculation, but still is my opinion.

The power that Ulqiorra displayed puts that claim to shame. Ulq wasn't even scratched by a Vizard+Bankai GT, whereas Urahara would have been damaged by Ichigo's most basic attack. Just the difference in their respective defenses is something to ponder.

It is likely that Urahara is in a gigai, though we don't know for sure. Most shinigami's fighting abilities seem to be reduced greatly in a Gigai, that's why they get out of it to fight. Of course it is possible that he designed a gigai for himself that lets him use his abilities to the fullest but it would be way OOC for him to spend his life in it as far as we know. It would explain why he would lose an arm so easily.
But even if his form that we saw up till now is his real spirit body, shinigami are injured more easily than arrancar who rely mostly on their hierro, evading or using special defensiva abilities instead. And Urahara blocked that GT with Benihime's shield with absolutely no effort. So i don't think Urahara saying he would have lost an arm can be used to compare them. I mean, we don't have a clue how strong that shield is. It's just as possible that Ulqi has no means of overpowering it as that it would just break down in one shot of litte effort.

As for attacking; Ulqiorra slapped away Urahara's attack easily, and moved in too quickly for Urahara to react. Assuming they were facing off against each other, Ulqiorra can increase his already well-demonstrated superior ability exponentially.

As for the attacks, i just don't think that Urahara put that much effort in that shot. I'm preety sure that he was only toying with Yammi and he could scale that attack up to be way stronger. Though we don't know to what extent so it's pointless to even guess if it's a threat to Ulq.

Ichigo's only superior asset to Byakuya was speed, nothing more, therefore making this loss slightly dubious.

It's off topic but in my opinion Bya gave up the moment he could let Ichigo save Rukia without breaking the laws he pledged to protect.

edit: I don't know how the Ichi vs Ulq fight could be of any use as a base for Ulq vs Urahara since we don't know anything about how Urahara compares to Ichigp

Chi

03-19-2008, 01:37 AM

But you're using it to say that THAT is the reason that Urahara would beat Ulq.

Which shouldn't be used, because it's completely false.

Don't get me wrong, we're on the same side - that Urahara would win.

But to use such things only puts it AGAINST our favour. So don't use it, because its blatantly incorrect and will only damage our point of view that Urahara would win.

That is my reasoning why I THINK Urahara would win.

Now Urahara is strong and may or may not be a vizard. But the reason why I think he can seriously beat Ulq is because he has the ability to match the amount of power anyone puts out. The cero that Ulq blocked had the same output strength of Yami's cero he fired at Yoroichi and Orihime at close range and he did it without breaking a sweat. To me the fact that Ulq blocked it means nothing but the fact that Urahara in shikai can generate that much power as a close range cero by an espada... does. And thats why i think if Urahara in Bankai can beat Ulq Vaste Lorde or not.

Moving on...

Rayster

03-19-2008, 03:55 AM

That is my reasoning why I THINK Urahara would win.

And it's incorrect. The fact that you say Ichigo was at 50% is degrading to the characters of the series.

Chi

03-19-2008, 04:06 AM

No the one where i quoted myself dude.

Guy

03-19-2008, 04:24 AM

Now Urahara is strong and may or may not be a vizard. But the reason why I think he can seriously beat Ulq is because he has the ability to match the amount of power anyone puts out. The cero that Ulq blocked had the same output strength of Yami's cero he fired at Yoroichi and Orihime at close range and he did it without breaking a sweat. To me the fact that Ulq blocked it means nothing but the fact that Urahara in shikai can generate that much power as a close range cero by an espada... does. And thats why i think if Urahara in Bankai can beat Ulq Vaste Lorde or not.

Are you serious? The fact that Ulqy EFFORTLESSLY blocked Urahara's killing blow to Yami MEANS NOTHING TO YOU?! That means that Urahara's shikai is USELESS against Ulquiorra. Ulquiorra can effortlessly block Urahara's shikai, that also means he can easily outrun Urahara's attack.

Also, the fact that Ulquiorra is a vastlorde may very well be true. Unless you can prove to me that Urahara can destroy one tenth of SS, I see no reason to believe Urahara can beat Ulquiorra.

Chi

03-19-2008, 04:49 AM

Are you serious? The fact that Ulqy EFFORTLESSLY blocked Urahara's killing blow to Yami MEANS NOTHING TO YOU?! That means that Urahara's shikai is USELESS against Ulquiorra. Ulquiorra can effortlessly block Urahara's shikai, that also means he can easily outrun Urahara's attack.

Also, the fact that Ulquiorra is a vastlorde may very well be true. Unless you can prove to me that Urahara can destroy one tenth of SS, I see no reason to believe Urahara can beat Ulquiorra.

Because its an attack matched for someone at Yami's level. Look i like Ulquiorra, he's my favorite Espada. Personally I hope he beats Ichigo to another inch closer to death then last time. But i just don't see him beating Urahara. Urahara is just smart, powerful, has Gadgets that mayuri probably only has wet dreams about. Plus if in his shikai he can match someone like Yami. How much more potent will he be in bankai.

Anyways, untill i get more info on both characters this is my last post on this specific thread. Same thing your asking me to prove i can ask you to prove that Ulq can too. Esp Given the momentum shift of the Capts pawning the espada with little to no effort.

Rayster

03-19-2008, 05:37 AM

No the one where i quoted myself dude.

I see. Well the terminology was incorrect, that's what would have thrown me;

That is my reasoning why I THINK Urahara would win.
"That" refers to something past, not "the following". Better use would be "this" or just obviously: "the following"

Even something like a : would have made it seem you meant the following.

Just some staff advice for future posts.

Anyway, since that's cleared up, we can continue with the topic.

It's good that our points got through, and you were able to at least drop the false 50% example of Ichigo

Chi

03-19-2008, 05:58 AM

I see. Well the terminology was incorrect, that's what would have thrown me;

"That" refers to something past, not "the following". Better use would be "this" or just obviously: "the following"

Even something like a : would have made it seem you meant the following.

Just some staff advice for future posts.

Anyway, since that's cleared up, we can continue with the topic.

It's good that our points got through, and you were able to at least drop the false 50% example of Ichigo

*eyes twitches*

Its not that crazy of a theory, Nell said it right there that his body was beat up before the fight with Ulquiorra even began. He wasn't 100%, he took a lot of damage from Dordoni. And it tired him out, then Ulq shows up and he goes right into that fight. By me even mentioning this, all i was trying to do was point out that this could not be gaged as a measure of strength difference between Ulq and Grimmy for those who would claim that Ulq is a VL he is stronger yes and may very well be a VL. But you can't prove it by using this as a mesurement of the difference in strength between the two.

http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/M7_Bleach_Ch271_04.png (http://s2.supload.com/free/M7_Bleach_Ch271_04.png/view/)

diamondedge

03-19-2008, 05:59 AM

Ichigo said "Imma come at you with my EVERYTHING." He charged biggest and strongest attack we've seen in the series to ... um ...tear his clones. Behinime didn't display power anywhere NEAR that.

Plus, Uarahara' shikai (not saying it was full, but it DID surprise Urahara) waseasily pawned by Ulquiorra. Urahara. It didn't even leave a scratch. And Argument that "Yammi was 10th and Ulqi is 4th so he didn't use power equal" is irrelevant, because Urahara didn't know that Ulquiorra is stronger than Yammi. if he did, he would have expected that, but manga clearly shows he didn't.

Unless Uraharara himself has Vaizard powers that is completely negating the fact that Vaizards are in fact stronger than average captain, that hybridization and hogyoku itself was complete waste of good paper.

If Ulquiorra IS in fact, Vasto Lorde than your "argument" that if Zaraki who has nothing can pawn Nnoitora than Urahara can own, yet you have no evidence to support that other than the typical his-powers-have-not-been-revealed-yet-in-the-series-so-he-must be-absolute-pwn syndrome and the 1 point gap between them means sh!t.

You have NO proof whatsoever that Urahara can launch an attack equal to fully charged vaizard bankai Ichigo's KGT, yet alone actually FORCING Ulquiorra to release. Stop overrating him on the fact that he was implied to be powerful with no evidence of his true power. Until I have evidence that will support Urahara's reputation, I am giving this to Ulquiorra.
based on his implied strength. If Zaraki can pwn Nnoitra, Urahara (far stronger than Zaraki) can beat Ulquiorra - who is stronger than Nnoitra.
If Nnoitora is 5th and Zaraki stomping on his with not even having bankai means that Hitsugaya can take down Ulquiorra.

Rayster

03-19-2008, 06:02 AM

@Love-Chi: Yeah. I acknowledged that he COULD have been weaker earlier. I said the max he could have tired out was 5-10%

It's just impossible for Ichigo to be at FIFTY PERCENT.

That much is just way too much.

But how does that bring his power down to 50%? He used the mask for a mere instant, and yet it drained him that much?

It drained 1/11 of his overall power. How do I know? 11 seconds max, and he used it for barely a second.

Otherwise, it's like saying, Zaraki travelling to HM took about 10-15%, and then wasting Tesla took another 20%, so when he fought Nnoit, he was only at 65%.

That's just not how it works.

Chi

03-19-2008, 06:13 AM

Not exactly i do admit i over exagerated, i didn't really think i'd have to go so in depth about how Fatigued Ichigo would be after fighting Dordonni. But Ichigo did take a lot of hits before he even put the mask on against Dordoni. I mean a lot of hits, rather in the manga or the anime look it over again, thats not 1/11'th tire out, he took he took a few good shots. So its whatever damage he took plus 1/11 th. Ok am off to sleep peace.

Rayster

03-19-2008, 06:19 AM

Ichigo said "Imma come at you with my EVERYTHING." He charged biggest and strongest attack we've seen in the series to ... um ...tear his clones. Behinime didn't display power anywhere NEAR that.
Bigger isn't always stronger, as we've seen :P

Stop overrating him on the fact that he was implied to be powerful with no evidence of his true power.
A lot of people we don't know is due to the implied nature of their roles.

For example Isshin. We assume he has been a captain, due to the robe etc.

Now, he hasn't fought anyone "big" yet, so we know he's being saved for later.

Greater than that - Urahara had been a captain far longer than Zaraki and Byakuya and Mayuri (the ones who have fought Espada so far).

Therefore, his experience is also greater. His role is greater. If they ever meet, Urahara will win.

If Nnoitora is 5th and Zaraki stomping on his with not even having bankai means that Hitsugaya can take down Ulquiorra.
Hitsugaya has nothing on Zaraki.

Nowitzki

03-19-2008, 06:30 AM

Bigger isn't always stronger, as we've seen :P

Ichigo was able to "damage" Ulquiorra more than Urahara did. Even if it was ruffling up some clothes, and making Ulquiorra use two hands...

However, Urahara was ONLY using Shikai, unaware of Ulquiorra's motives, while Ichigo was using Bankai with his Vaizard mask against Ulquiorra with all of his might. Ulquiorra also never attacked Urahara, so we don't know how he would have fended against that.

There is no way to determine whether or not Urahara put his all into that attack against Yammi which got deflected.

One thing is.. you cannot use Ichigo as a basis for the argument. You can't compare someone using a Shikai to a Bankai-user with Hollow powers against the same opponent. If they both used the same techniques and same abilities and were at the same level (both using Shikai) then that's a different story.

diamondedge

03-19-2008, 06:39 AM

Bigger isn't always stronger, as we've seen :P
Your point? it is evident that Ichigo launched the strongest attack we've seen from him in the entire series and failed miserably.

Greater than that - Urahara had been a captain far longer than Zaraki and Byakuya and Mayuri (the ones who have fought Espada so far).

Therefore, his experience is also greater. His role is greater. If they ever meet, Urahara will win.
It's a bit foolish to bet everything on experience. YOu're making sound as if Ulquiorra is a n00b.

If I have a water based weapon and I'm a nwebie, the master of fire would still get owned to water, and Bleach has lately demonstrated this point quite nicely.

Therefore, we can not conclude how strong Urahara's power isuntil we've seen the true extent of his abilities. As I said, the only argument of the ones who say Urahara will win is that he is supposed to be powerful due to his role in the series after not actually showing anything impressive, but only has reputation.

I know that pawning main character means nothing, but Ulquirra still effortlessly blocked a strongest attack we've seen up to date in the series. I don't quite think it's really objective to say Uraraha can defeat when Ulquiorra himself hasn't even released, "just because he has exp".

Hitsugaya has nothing on Zaraki.
No comment, it wasn't even the point I was as trying to make.

Nowitzki

03-19-2008, 06:44 AM

the only argument of the ones who say Urahara will win is that he is supposed to be powerful due to his role in the series after not actually showing anything impressive, but only has reputation.

I like this point, because people pick a certain perspective and stick with it without thinking of all the possibilities.

SURE Urahara is the mentor, SURE he has a lot of experience.. but he is also a scientist. There is a trend where scientists in Bleach (Mayuri, Szayel) have been WEAK but make up for their weakness with superior technology.

Now I am not saying Urahara is weak, but I am agreeing with diamondedge on how you can't base his strength off of his reputation. If you do, evaluate all aspects of his reputation. He has the probability, being who is, of being weak just as much as he would be strong. So far, we can gather he can fool around with Yammy, but honestly that is not saying much.

Rayster

03-19-2008, 07:03 AM

Your point? it is evident that Ichigo launched the strongest attack we've seen from him in the entire series and failed miserably.
From him. That's the point. Ulquiorra's small hand did more damage to Ichigo than Ichigo's huge blast. The size of the attack matters little. It matters as to who is doing it.

Therefore, Urahara's attack (in shikai) was less powerful than Ichigo's (in Vaizard Bankai) but it doesn't mean the difference was that great. Urahara still has bankai, etc.

It's a bit foolish to bet everything on experience. YOu're making sound as if Ulquiorra is a n00b.

If I have a water based weapon and I'm a nwebie, the master of fire would still get owned to water, and Bleach has lately demonstrated this point quite nicely.
How does this analogy match up to Urahara and Ulquiorra? Is Ulquiorra a fire based poke- i mean, fire based Arrancar? And Urahara is leaf based?

Therefore, we can not conclude how strong Urahara's power isuntil we've seen the true extent of his abilities.
Well, yeah. I never said we could.

As I said, the only argument of the ones who say Urahara will win is that he is supposed to be powerful due to his role in the series after not actually showing anything impressive, but only has reputation.
You're just restating my argument in the last post. Why didn't you address it?

No comment, it wasn't even the point I was as trying to make.
lol? No comment? Lighten up, I was just saying something o.O

It wasn't part of my post either, just something I wanted to add.

Such as; Nine Inch Nails is cool.

/points to ur usertitle

I like this point,
And neither have you, answered the query that he fits into the status of Isshin, Ryuuken, etc, who have yet to fight.

Or are we just saying that the WEAKEST WORTHY member of the ESPADA that the good guys have yet to fight, will be able to rip Urahara?

If so...

Who is Urahara saved for?

because people pick a certain perspective and stick with it without thinking of all the possibilities.
Quite the contrary. We're thinking more, about what can come, because of what's occured. That was quite the stubborn comment there Obby.

Ulquiorra is currently the weakest worthy character he can fight. Is Kubo saving him for Yammi? Come on. The guy was messing with Yammi, didn't even go bankai and was being playful. Ichigo in bankai messed him up. Though released Yammi may have been different for Ichigo.

Who else will Urahara face?

When it comes down to it, it's what Kubo has planned out. Therefore, he has based Urahara's strength at a certain level.

Kubo was clever in depicting the ch194 scene. He had the Espada seem strong by Ulquiorra deflecting a known powerful character's (who we just found out had been a captain eons ago) attack with his bare hand.

But he made sure not to have them fight, as that would mean Urahara going into bankai, etc. It was a set up for things to come, to make it seem like Ulquiorra was the Primera, or at least one of the top tier. He still also showed that Yammi, a weaker espada, could be dealt with by bankai Ichigo.

Urahara is being saved for later.

I wouldn't be surprised if he fought someone higher than Ulquiorra.

At the moment, people are saying Ichigo will fight and kill Ulquiorra. If so, Urahara would become redundant for the ENTIRE SERIES, if you say he cannot take Ulquiorra.

diamondedge

03-19-2008, 07:22 AM

From him. That's the point. Ulquiorra's small hand did more damage to Ichigo than Ichigo's huge blast. The size of the attack matters little. It matters as to who is doing it.
I said the strongest, not biggest.

Therefore, Urahara's attack (in shikai) was less powerful than Ichigo's (in Vaizard Bankai) but it doesn't mean the difference was that great. Urahara still has bankai, etc.
Exactly. So does Ulquiorra.

How does this analogy match up to Urahara and Ulquiorra? Is Ulquiorra a fire based poke- i mean, fire based Arrancar? And Urahara is leaf based?
No, but based on the fact we don't know their releases Ulquiorra might have something that completely negates Ulquiora's release, or vice versa. Does that make any of them stronger? Nop. But we don't know, do we? If we don't know, how is it so easily to conclude the outcome?

And neither have you, answered the query that he fits into the status of Isshin, Ryuuken, etc, who have yet to fight.

Or are we just saying that the WEAKEST WORTHY member of the ESPADA that the good guys have yet to fight, will be able to rip Urahara?

If so...

Who is Urahara saved for?
As I said, typical syndrome for rather non developed character, where the only argument for victory is "saving best for the last". You're saying that Urahara wins because good guys win and he is the good guy who didn't fight yet.

When it comes down to it, it's what Kubo has planned out. Therefore, he has based Urahara's strength at a certain level.
I agree. But he hasn't fought. If he doesn't fight, we can safely conclude Zaraki is stronger than him, right?

I wouldn't be surprised if he fought someone higher than Ulquiorra.
Nobody will be, but he didn't give us anything to believe he can actually take them.

At the moment, people are saying Ichigo will fight and kill Ulquiorra. If so, Urahara would become redundant for the ENTIRE SERIES, if you say he cannot take Ulquiorra.
No. I'm merely saying that you're giving him victory because he is a strong, undeveloped character who didn't fight yet, and being the good guy doesn't give him an automatic victory if he doesn't display abilities that are good enough to take down someone of Ulquiorra's character. Even though Ulquiorra is the weakest link now, he has shown something, and has been hyped up just as much as Urahara was. But if Urahara would win because he is a good guy - that doesn't make him stronger.

Even in direct contact they had, Urahara was SURPRISED when he saw how easily his shikai was blocked. Quite a feat for a character who is supposed to be always one step ahead.

Seff vi Britannia

03-19-2008, 07:53 AM

If Nnoitora is 5th and Zaraki stomping on his with not even having bankai means that Hitsugaya can take down Ulquiorra.

But Zaraki is clearly stronger than Hitsugaya, based on what we've being shown. So no, Hitsugaya can't take down Ulquiorra.

thomasomali

03-19-2008, 11:07 AM

I will put it this way. Looking at both characters, Ulquiorra is an Aranca and more precisely, an Espada; making him stronger than a regular shinigami. In terms of strenght and abilities, I would say Ulquiorra rates higher than Urahara even though we haven't really seen or know just how strong Urahara is. Thats not to say we know how strong Ulquiorra is either. We have only seen him in one fight and he really threw out a lot of power and in terms of intelligence and capabilities, he studied Orhime's powers and Aizens relies a good deal on him.

However I think the battle will go to Urahara because you have all the power it takes out 10 Shinigami captains but lack the exprience to use it in battle. Urahara is a geniues and possess a vast of exprience both in battle and science. His creation is the back bone of Aizens master plan leaving you wondering just how much about him we don't know. He has been a Shinigami Captain in addition.

AmnesiaI

03-19-2008, 11:24 AM

so what if urahara is a vaizard and can release a hollow form?

does that level this "ichigo did more dmg to ULQ therefore ULQ owns urahara" argument?

Undying

03-19-2008, 11:27 AM

First thing to note is that we know so little about Urahara that this is pure speculation, but still is my opinion.
This entire argument is speculation at this point.

It is likely that Urahara is in a gigai, though we don't know for sure. Most shinigami's fighting abilities seem to be reduced greatly in a Gigai, that's why they get out of it to fight. Of course it is possible that he designed a gigai for himself that lets him use his abilities to the fullest but it would be way OOC for him to spend his life in it as far as we know. It would explain why he would lose an arm so easily.
Urahara is in a Gigai, he talked to a perfectly regular police officer during the Hospital Hollow chapters. However, as Rukia indirectly demonstrates, a Gigai should not affect a shinigami's powers at all (Rukia uses Kido and comments on how her spiritual powers haven't yet returned to their fullest, but she doesn't state anything regarding the fact she's in a Gigai).

Therefore, I do not believe that Urahara's fighting powers are hampered due to his Gigai.
But even if his form that we saw up till now is his real spirit body, shinigami are injured more easily than arrancar who rely mostly on their hierro, evading or using special defensiva abilities instead. And Urahara blocked that GT with Benihime's shield with absolutely no effort. So i don't think Urahara saying he would have lost an arm can be used to compare them. I mean, we don't have a clue how strong that shield is. It's just as possible that Ulqi has no means of overpowering it as that it would just break down in one shot of litte effort.
I was not comparing their shields. I was comparing their natural defensive capabilities. Urahara's are naturally lower than Ulqiorra's, giving him one edge in battle already. Combine that with his gigantic power blasts and as-yet unknown release, and it quite overshadows Urahara's speculated and hinted-of power.

As for the attacks, i just don't think that Urahara put that much effort in that shot. I'm preety sure that he was only toying with Yammi and he could scale that attack up to be way stronger. Though we don't know to what extent so it's pointless to even guess if it's a threat to Ulq.
Once again, not what I was trying to prove. I did not say Ulqiuorra blocked Urahara's most powerful attack.

What I am saying is that Ulqiorra effortlessly slapped away an attack that had as much power as/more power than Yammy's full-blow Cero, and didn't even had his clothes ruffled. We also see that this is nothing to Ulqiorra as the greatest damage he got from an attack with far more the damaging power was burned clothes.

This indicates that Ulqiorra's defensive powers are great enough to negate most of Urahara's smaller scale attack, forcing him to use attacks that would most likely be more taxing, energy-wise. That, without Ulqiorra having to release. Considering Ulqiorra can dodge those big bad blasts and counter, he still holds the edge, and that only with his defensive ability, without counting his offensive powers. Urahara's defensive ability, while impressive in itself, is relatively weak compared to the scale of attacks shown.

He would most likely be able to block most of Ulqiorra's own smaller-scale attacks, maybe even his Cero, forcing him to release. But the problem is that Urahara needs to sacrifice an attack turn because he uses a defensive ability while Ulqiorra's natural defense is already too high.

Hence, Ulqiorra holds one edge which is already a problem for Urahara.

It's off topic but in my opinion Bya gave up the moment he could let Ichigo save Rukia without breaking the laws he pledged to protect.
He gave up on his oath and let Ichigo save Rukia. When he saw he was needed, he jumped in and saved Rukia :).

edit: I don't know how the Ichi vs Ulq fight could be of any use as a base for Ulq vs Urahara since we don't know anything about how Urahara compares to Ichigp
I wasn't using it as any proof of Urahara's or Ulqiorra's powers. I merely used it to demonstrate Ulqiorra's impressive defensive ability which is greater than what most characters demonstrated until now. Coupled with an already impressive offensive ability without actually using his powers (his Cero and hand were quite damaging), and it overshadows Urahara's demonstrated feats.
Because its an attack matched for someone at Yami's level. Look i like Ulquiorra, he's my favorite Espada. Personally I hope he beats Ichigo to another inch closer to death then last time. But i just don't see him beating Urahara. Urahara is just smart, powerful, has Gadgets that mayuri probably only has wet dreams about. Plus if in his shikai he can match someone like Yami. How much more potent will he be in bankai.
May I remind you that Ulqiorra has shown us nothing? Also, gadgets won't save Urahara, this isn't Inspector Gadget.

And as far as the attack power, see above. Ulqiorra blocked an attack that had as much power as/more power than Yammy's Cero and didn't even try to look like he was trying.

Anyways, untill i get more info on both characters this is my last post on this specific thread. Same thing your asking me to prove i can ask you to prove that Ulq can too. Esp Given the momentum shift of the Capts pawning the espada with little to no effort.
Considering the level of currently "pwnd" opponents, I think it's rather clear that the real fighters are much more powerful.

What we had so far? A former reject relying on tricks with little to no power beaten by a trickster who apparently has naked Ishida movies, a former 8 who only grown in skill and not in power and was defeated by his own idiocy (tell me how is it difficult to wrap one's mind around the concept of dodging?), and a nigga (no offense to anyone African American or otherwise of African descent ;)) who was pwn'd by someone who has his one and only weakness. Oh and of course, how could I forget, a Gillian whose most powerful weapon was a former Gotei 13 VC.

No, I wouldn't judge the power of the Espada based on those pathetic losers. Grimmjow was the only warrior noteworthy among them, who displayed versatility (ranged/short range/melee attacks, using varying Cero, speed and dexterity, effectively using the area to his advantage (attacking Orihime to weaken Ichigo/force him to use his most powerful attack still reached the same end result), and was beaten only through luck and the whole "I'ma go to safe ma frenz powaa" stuff.

Don't jump to hasty conclusions based on the defeat of the weakest pawns.
But Zaraki is clearly stronger than Hitsugaya, based on what we've being shown. So no, Hitsugaya can't take down Ulquiorra.
Hitsugaya would tear Ulqiorra to shreds. It's a well known fact.

KholdStare

03-19-2008, 12:29 PM

I like this point, because people pick a certain perspective and stick with it without thinking of all the possibilities.

SURE Urahara is the mentor, SURE he has a lot of experience.. but he is also a scientist. There is a trend where scientists in Bleach (Mayuri, Szayel) have been WEAK but make up for their weakness with superior technology.

Now I am not saying Urahara is weak, but I am agreeing with diamondedge on how you can't base his strength off of his reputation. If you do, evaluate all aspects of his reputation. He has the probability, being who is, of being weak just as much as he would be strong. So far, we can gather he can fool around with Yammy, but honestly that is not saying much.

For any character in a manga who hasn't fought all out, how else can you judge his/her power? The first, second, and third espada have never fought yet, but we clearly know they are powerful due to what? Their reputation. We have never seen Gin fight but people seem to have no problem assuming he is more powerful than the average captain simply because he is with Aizen. That is a form of reputation is it not?

The things which Ichigo has to do in his Vaizard mode (block ceros close up), Urahara has done easily with his shikai. Granted, it was yammy, but Yammy is an espada nonetheless and Urahara was in shikai. He sliced through Luppi's tentacle while he was released like it was nothing, and again Urahara blasted away WonderWeiss who has reiatsu equal to that of an Espada.

There must be some reason why the author did not want to show Urahara's bankai and why he teases us by saying "it can't be used to train". This is obviously speculation but I believe his bankai probably puts his opponent at a severe disadvantage.

And the last piece of evidence I have is that if Urahara knew what he was up against, he would easily be able to bring some of his gadgets to battle to help him. If Mayuri can come up with all that stuff to fight Szayel, why can't Urahara? Even Mayuri in the last chapter recognizes who is the superior scientist of the two.

Nowitzki

03-19-2008, 01:33 PM

For any character in a manga who hasn't fought all out, how else can you judge his/her power? The first, second, and third espada have never fought yet, but we clearly know they are powerful due to what? Their reputation. We have never seen Gin fight but people seem to have no problem assuming he is more powerful than the average captain simply because he is with Aizen. That is a form of reputation is it not?

I've never said I've thought Gin was powerful, I don't really know how this is relevant to what this discussion is about. And the top Espada are powerful because of their ranking, as it is fact that each Espada is more efficient the lower number they are (lower as in, going from 10 down). Reputation has nothing to do with it.

The things which Ichigo has to do in his Vaizard mode (block ceros close up), Urahara has done easily with his shikai. Granted, it was yammy, but Yammy is an espada nonetheless and Urahara was in shikai. He sliced through Luppi's tentacle while he was released like it was nothing, and again Urahara blasted away WonderWeiss who has reiatsu equal to that of an Espada.

And I am sure Luppi was expecting this? Just like Grimmjow expected Tousen to cut off his arm.

There must be some reason why the author did not want to show Urahara's bankai and why he teases us by saying "it can't be used to train". This is obviously speculation but I believe his bankai probably puts his opponent at a severe disadvantage.

I would hope so too, otherwise it wouldn't be much of a Bankai.

And the last piece of evidence I have is that if Urahara knew what he was up against, he would easily be able to bring some of his gadgets to battle to help him. If Mayuri can come up with all that stuff to fight Szayel, why can't Urahara? Even Mayuri in the last chapter recognizes who is the superior scientist of the two.

Gadgets to make up for lack of fighting power? Clearly Szayel was the more superior scientist, as he was able to go as far as to make Mayuri's own Bankai turn against him. And yes, I do know Mayuri has his poison and what not...

KholdStare

03-19-2008, 02:56 PM

I've never said I've thought Gin was powerful, I don't really know how this is relevant to what this discussion is about. And the top Espada are powerful because of their ranking, as it is fact that each Espada is more efficient the lower number they are (lower as in, going from 10 down). Reputation has nothing to do with it.

Reputation does have something to do with it. I don't know if you personally argued it or not, but it has been a strong opinion among people here that Gin and Tousen are stronger than they previously had been. What is their reasoning? That they are Aizen's subordinates.

And I am sure Luppi was expecting this? Just like Grimmjow expected Tousen to cut off his arm.

So Luppi expecting it would not have had his tentacle cut off?

Gadgets to make up for lack of fighting power? Clearly Szayel was the more superior scientist, as he was able to go as far as to make Mayuri's own Bankai turn against him. And yes, I do know Mayuri has his poison and what not...

I think it's evident that he was NOT the superior scientist because Mayuri had a direct counter to what Szayel had done. Mayuri had engineered his bankai to explode any time it turned against him. And in the end, who ended up winning? The winner of the fight shows who was the superior scientist.

I don't think it's even fair to put Urahara's scientific abilities on the same scale as Szayel's... Urahara has invented something which allows a shinigami to gain hollow powers.

And yes, gadgets CAN be used to overcome a power gap. If Urahara were to create something similar to Szayel's invention, he could make it so Ulquiorra wouldn't even be able to release.

After all, he was the Founder and the President of the Shinigami Research Institute.

diamondedge

03-19-2008, 03:10 PM

For any character in a manga who hasn't fought all out, how else can you judge his/her power?
Who would have figured, you can't.

The things which Ichigo has to do in his Vaizard mode (block ceros close up), Urahara has done easily with his shikai. Granted, it was yammy, but Yammy is an espada nonetheless and Urahara was in shikai. He sliced through Luppi's tentacle while he was released like it was nothing, and again Urahara blasted away WonderWeiss who has reiatsu equal to that of an Espada.
Is Urahara pawning Yammi supposed to compliment him? Yourichi took him barehanded.

There must be some reason why the author did not want to show Urahara's bankai and why he teases us by saying "it can't be used to train". This is obviously speculation but I believe his bankai probably puts his opponent at a severe disadvantage.
But you don't know. You're like, saying his bankai will be stronger than any bankai seen before him just because it will be shown among the last, which is a pretty hardcore logic.

Not only you assume, you concluded in the very first post you made here that this is true, without giving it any second thought.
Reputation does have something to do with it. I don't know if you personally argued it or not, but it has been a strong opinion among people here that Gin and Tousen are stronger than they previously had been. What is their reasoning? That they are Aizen's subordinates.
3/4 of characters in the series have some kind of reputation.

And despite the fact that both Gin and Tousen have displayed nothing at all (I mean, Gin's shikai, who could possibly DIE from that), they must be pawn just because, ignoring neither of them actually specializes in anything. But Gin's bankai will be shown among the last, so it's gotta be the most powerful, while completely ignoring the fact he is one of the youngest and has shown pretty much nothing.

KholdStare

03-19-2008, 03:19 PM

Who would have figured, you can't.

You can speculate, by their reputation

Is Urahara pawning Yammi supposed to compliment him? Yourichi took him barehanded.

Yammy is slow, which is why Yoruichi took him bare handed. But she never took a hit from him. There is a difference. Urahara negated an Espada cero from point blank range with his shikai.

But you don't know. You're like, saying his bankai will be stronger than any bankai seen before him just because it will be shown among the last, which is a pretty hardcore logic.

That is not the only evidence I provided as to why it will be a strong bankai. I said several times the author has hinted at it, but never shown it. There is a difference between never mentioning it and never showing it and mentioning it and never showing it.

Not only you assume, you concluded in the very first post you made here that this is true, without giving it any second thought.

I'm afraid I can't find this post.

3/4 of characters in the series have some kind of reputation.

And?

And despite the fact that both Gin and Tousen have displayed nothing at all (I mean, Gin's shikai, who could possibly DIE from that), they must be pawn just because, ignoring neither of them actually specializes in anything. But Gin's bankai will be shown among the last, so it's gotta be the most powerful, while completely ignoring the fact he is one of the youngest and has shown pretty much nothing.

Once again, I think you need to re-read why I said I think Urahara's bankai will be very powerful. Not ONLY because it will be shown later in the manga. I've said it above so I won't say it again.

Again, if Urahara IS lacking in power, his scientific abilities would certainly be able to provide a huge advantage. Nobody ever seems to quote that part of my post. If Mayuri has so many tricks up his sleeve, imagine how many Urahara has. Why is it that Yamamoto asks Urahara to do all these things when he has Mayuri in SS?

From the recent chapters we have seen Zaraki pwn the 5th Espada.

Now you Diamondedge believe that a fight between Byakuya and Zaraki would result in a clear victory for Byakuya. And in the Byakuya vs Urahara thread you said it would be close but Urahara would win, so why is it so hard to believe that Urahara could beat the 4th Espada when you believe he could beat the guy who could beat the guy who beat the 5th Espada?

Undying

03-19-2008, 03:25 PM

You can speculate, by their reputation
Zaraki has a reputation of never falling.

[QUOTE]Yammy is slow, which is why Yoruichi took him bare handed. But she never took a hit from him. There is a difference. Urahara negated an Espada cero from point blank range with his shikai.
Ulqiorra backhanded an attack of similar power away without so much as burning the back of his hand.

This hardly indicares any great power from Urahara.
That is not the only evidence I provided as to why it will be a strong bankai. I said several times the author has hinted at it, but never shown it. There is a difference between never mentioning it and never showing it and mentioning it and never showing it.
As I said, people hang too much on the whole "my bankai cannot be used for training". Training Chad requires a gentle hand. He was barely on Renji's level.

Mayuri beat a trickster because he knew how to counter a trickster. Ulquiorra is not in the same position.
No, Ulqiorra can simply overpower said trickery, hence he is ranked higher than Szayel.

But the current 5th. He could still beat anybody below him in rank.
Would he? I've repeatedly stated it. This guy is a walking joke; he would stand no chance against anyone below him, from what we've seen.

diamondedge

03-19-2008, 03:46 PM

About the reputation, yeah, Undying said it nicely. Also, it was explicitly stated his squad is the "strongest."

I'd take this as having reputation that indicates huge power, wouldn't you?

Yammy is slow, which is why Yoruichi took him bare handed. But she never took a hit from him. There is a difference. Urahara negated an Espada cero from point blank range with his shikai.
Em, you change the subject.

You argued with the fact that Yammy - I quote "after all, an Espada."

That is not the only evidence I provided as to why it will be a strong bankai. I said several times the author has hinted at it, but never shown it. There is a difference between never mentioning it and never showing it and mentioning it and never showing it.
First you call it hint, then you call it evidence. Hint =! evidence.

Now, from people who have revealed bankai, whose bankai is actually CAPABLE of training people without being "I win button?"

From revealed captains:
Mayuri - can't be possibly used for training. You can't get train by getting poisoned.
Byakuya's - impossible as it shreds anyone who is slower.
Tousen - ya right, you become the punching bag the instant you enter unless you're extremely calm and self conscious, or crazy.

Now, I assume you'd say you can train with these three just fine, eh?

I don't see why Urahara's bankai would be THAT much more special or how can it even be THAT much more powerful than anyone else's. It can be powerful in different way, but being revealed last doesn't make it any better then the rest, being suitable for training or not. It can be just bigger, stronger, faster version of his bankai, but would that make it more powerful from what we've seen, just because it's revealed last?

So in conclusion, I still don't quite get how these hits of your become proof, since there are plenty of skilled people in the manga whose bankai can't be used to train with and is quite deadly, the only difference is that it wasn't explicitly stated.

I'm afraid I can't find this post.
[quote=KholdStare]I have no trouble believing that Urahara could be Ulquiorra based on the fact that these Captains "lost" to Ichigo but still managed to pwn their respective Espadas.
It would be correct if the power gap wasn't so apparent. More about that in the next paragraphs.

And?

What Undying said.

Once again, I think you need to re-read why I said I think Urahara's bankai will be very powerful. Not ONLY because it will be shown later in the manga. I've said it above so I won't say it again.
What I said above.

Again, if Urahara IS lacking in power, his scientific abilities would certainly be able to provide a huge advantage. Nobody ever seems to quote that part of my post. If Mayuri has so many tricks up his sleeve, imagine how many Urahara has. Why is it that Yamamoto asks Urahara to do all these things when he has Mayuri in SS?

And?

Is he the only one being able to think strategically and make fast decisions?

Why isn't Mayuri captain commander then? Because sheer COMBAT ABILITY still triumphs over tricks. Espada ranking is quite good example of that.
From the recent chapters we have seen Zaraki pwn the 5th Espada.

Now you Diamondedge believe that a fight between Byakuya and Zaraki would result in a clear victory for Byakuya. And in the Byakuya vs Urahara thread you said it would be close but Urahara would win, so why is it so hard to believe that Urahara could beat the 4th Espada when you believe he could beat the guy who could beat the guy who beat the 5th Espada?
And in Byakuya vs Ulquiorra topic I clearly stated Ulquiorra takes it easily.

From what has shown, the topic about Nnoitora vs Byakyua would result in clear victory of Byakuya too, as the majority has agreed on. And because of that, I would have used the same logic as you did, but Ulquiorra is not quite as lame as Nnoitora was in terms of combat power.

You know, he has a reputation too.

lilmajin

03-19-2008, 04:02 PM

Wow....there are people who actually think that Ulq can beat Urahara based on their performance against ICHIGO....who can and WILL beat ANYBODY with the help of plotkai!!!

Urahara, by reputation, is the absolute BEST scientist in the series. He carries portable gigais to avoid ANY kind of surprise attack, he created the Hou, which means that we know that his reiatsu is TWICE that of a normal captain's AT THE LEAST, which means that he is probably 4 or 5 times stronger than a captain, AND his Benihime's shield has YET to be beaten nor even hinted at being beaten.

Also, vs Yammy, HE FREAKING SAID THAT HIS RETURN BLAST MATCHED YAMMY'S CERO IN STRENGTH, which we could speculate that whatever his shield can block can be returned with equal output. Also, he DID NOT seem surprised that Ulq flicked it out the way with one hand, maybe surprised that Ulq SAVED A HOLLOW'S LIFE. Lol lol lol

Ulq has NOW PROVEN his reliance on pure strength to counter attacks, which means that his experience isn't great/he isn't intelligent. I'm saying that it's EASY to surprise him. He was surprised when 1 no, 2 hands COULDN'T COMPLETELY STOP GT.....also, he was surprised when Grimmjow used that restraining device to take him out of the series for what seems like 20chapters now. Urahara would've been better prepared for any of those situations because HE DOES NOT GET SURPRISED because of the help of gigai sheninigans.

Urahara is NOT overrated, he is UNDERSTOOD to be stronger than the majority of the characters on the series BASED on pure REPUTATION. Ulq is being overrated because his biggest feat so far was beating on regular Ichigo; by regular I mean no plotkai involved like the UNLIMITED VAIZARD FORM vs RELEASED Grimmjow. Because we KNOW that unreleased Ulq was being overpowered by Vaizard Ichigo and WOULD'VE released had Ichigo gotten the same plotkai treatment that he gained vs Grimmjow.

Urahara has YET to actually TRY to beat ANYONE. We don't know all of his abilities in unreleased, shikai, and definitely not Bankai form AND we don't know what other devastating devices he has that ARE BETTER THAN the device Grimmjow used EFFECTIVELY on Ulq. Lawl

Undying - Ulq can overpower trickery with power? I guess that's why he was banished by a DUMMY like Grimmjow using a device that he has himself. Remember, Espada are ranked by killing intent and power.......not by wits. Even a VL Espada WOULD LOSE to Szayel IF he voodoos them.

Undying

03-19-2008, 04:14 PM

Wow....there are people who actually think that Ulq can beat Urahara based on their performance against ICHIGO....who can and WILL beat ANYBODY with the help of plotkai!!!
If you bothered reading, no one is using Ichigo as a comparing stick.

Urahara, by reputation, is the absolute BEST scientist in the series.
Zaraki, by reputation, cannot be beaten.
He carries portable gigais to avoid ANY kind of surprise attack,
So?
he created the Hou, which means that we know that his reiatsu is TWICE that of a normal captain's AT THE LEAST, which means that he is probably 4 or 5 times stronger than a captain, AND his Benihime's shield has YET to be beaten nor even hinted at being beaten.
No. Aizen said that in order to use the not-yet-awakened Hougyoku one needs at least twice the reiatsu of a captain. Creating it has nothing to do with this. Also, if Urahara has five times the reiatsu of a captain, he should've brought Ulqiorra down to his knees with just reiatsu.

Also, vs Yammy, HE FREAKING SAID THAT HIS RETURN BLAST MATCHED YAMMY'S CERO IN STRENGTH, which we could speculate that whatever his shield can block can be returned with equal output.
He stated he dissipated Yammy's attack with a blast of equal power. Which Ulqiorra slapped away easily.
Also, he DID NOT seem surprised that Ulq flicked it out the way with one hand, maybe surprised that Ulq SAVED A HOLLOW'S LIFE. Lol lol lol
He was shocked at Ulqiorra's appearance. He was shocked that his attack was so easily slapped away.

Ulq has NOW PROVEN his reliance on pure strength to counter attacks, which means that his experience isn't great/he isn't intelligent. I'm saying that it's EASY to surprise him. He was surprised when 1 no, 2 hands COULDN'T COMPLETELY STOP GT.....also, he was surprised when Grimmjow used that restraining device to take him out of the series for what seems like 20chapters now. Urahara would've been better prepared for any of those situations because HE DOES NOT GET SURPRISED because of the help of gigai sheninigans.
Ulqiorra believed Ichigo's reiatsu to be below his. He was shocked at Ichigo's mask and reiatsu texture, which he states.

He also wasn't damaged by Ichigo's attack.

Urahara is NOT overrated, he is UNDERSTOOD to be stronger than the majority of the characters on the series BASED on pure REPUTATION. Ulq is being overrated because his biggest feat so far was beating on regular Ichigo; by regular I mean no plotkai involved like the UNLIMITED VAIZARD FORM vs RELEASED Grimmjow. Because we KNOW that unreleased Ulq was being overpowered by Vaizard Ichigo and WOULD'VE released had Ichigo gotten the same plotkai treatment that he gained vs Grimmjow.
Urahara is being severely overrated right here in your post. Ulqiorra demonstrated a far superior offensive and defensive power to date. I rest my case.

Urahara has YET to actually TRY to beat ANYONE. We don't know all of his abilities in unreleased, shikai, and definitely not Bankai form AND we don't know what other devastating devices he has that ARE BETTER THAN the device Grimmjow used EFFECTIVELY on Ulq. Lawl
Ulqiorra is yet to even bother trying to look troubled when fighting. Oh wait, Ulqiora is yet to even draw his sword.

Undying - Ulq can overpower trickery with power? I guess that's why he was banished by a DUMMY like Grimmjow using a device that he has himself. Remember, Espada are ranked by killing intent and power.......not by wits. Even a VL Espada WOULD LOSE to Szayel IF he voodoos them.
No, they won't. Also, Ulq can overpowered trickery. This trickery will be overpowered soon enough. It would take about two hours. As for Szayel, any Espada above him can *****slap him to hell.

lilmajin

03-19-2008, 06:13 PM

2 hours to overpower trickery is a long time. can't wait until Ulq overpowers the trickery

Undying

03-19-2008, 06:19 PM

This trickery has been made by Aizen to last forever. As opposed to Urahara's which is meant to last for a few seconds.

Trickery forever = two hours.

Trickery for a few seconds = no time at all.

Nowitzki

03-19-2008, 07:42 PM

If Mayuri has so many tricks up his sleeve, imagine how many Urahara has. Why is it that Yamamoto asks Urahara to do all these things when he has Mayuri in SS?

I don't see why Yamamoto asking Urahara to do things has anything to do with his power.

Yamamoto knows Urahara can create a Garganta... which is why he asked him to do so.

Yamamoto knows that Urahara knows the area of Karakura and it's spirit particle make up.. so why would he ask Mayuri when he has an agent on location.

It's not a matter of arrogance or respect, it's about getting who can perform a job to do it. If Mayuri was banished for creating a degradable Gigai and got to sit around in Karakura too, I'm sure Yamamoto would have asked him to get Soul Society ready for battle there.

Now you Diamondedge believe that a fight between Byakuya and Zaraki would result in a clear victory for Byakuya. And in the Byakuya vs Urahara thread you said it would be close but Urahara would win, so why is it so hard to believe that Urahara could beat the 4th Espada when you believe he could beat the guy who could beat the guy who beat the 5th Espada?

I'm not sure why you brought this up. Byakuya and Urahara have completely different fighting styles. This is just as bad as using Ichigo as a basis for fights.

Yammy is slow, which is why Yoruichi took him bare handed. But she never took a hit from him. There is a difference. Urahara negated an Espada cero from point blank range with his shikai.

Keep in mind that this is Yammi's Cero and not Ulquiorra's.

KholdStare

03-19-2008, 08:05 PM

I don't see why Yamamoto asking Urahara to do things has anything to do with his power.

Yamamoto knows Urahara can create a Garganta... which is why he asked him to do so.

Yamamoto knows that Urahara knows the area of Karakura and it's spirit particle make up.. so why would he ask Mayuri when he has an agent on location.

It's not a matter of arrogance or respect, it's about getting who can perform a job to do it. If Mayuri was banished for creating a degradable Gigai and got to sit around in Karakura too, I'm sure Yamamoto would have asked him to get Soul Society ready for battle there.

The reason is not because Mayuri is not because Mayuri doesn't reside within Karakura town, it is because Mayuri doesn't understand how gargantas work. Mayuri said himself that the only person who has enough knowledge about gargantas to unseal them would be Urahara.

Yamamoto also told him to open up a way for the captains to get through to Hueco Mundo from SS, but Urahara doesn't live in SS does he? I think the reason most likely is that Mayuri is still inexperienced and his knowledge is not as great as Urahara.

The reason I bring this up? To show his knowledge in science which can be used on the battlefield. What I'm saying is he probably has inventions which would be a great asset on the battlefield.

I'm not sure why you brought this up. Byakuya and Urahara have completely different fighting styles. This is just as bad as using Ichigo as a basis for fights.

I just wanted to see the justification for why it's so hard to believe that Urahara could defeat the 4th Espada when Zaraki (whom many deem below Byakuya) could defeat the 5th. Yet, in the Byakuya vs Urahara thread it was stated that Urahara would win.

Keep in mind that this is Yammi's Cero and not Ulquiorra's.
I can only show you what's been shown in the manga.

And yes, Undying you're right, Szayel probably could not use his tricks on Ulquiorra because Ulquiorra is that far ahead of him.

But this is not the case with Urahara, such a power gap does not exist which prevents him from using his inventions. Even if you assume Urahara is physically weaker than Ulquiorra, he is not THAT far behind that Ulquiorra's reiatsu could pwn him like Ulquiorra probably could with Szayel. I would like to think his inventions would be far beyond Szayel's simply because he is the greater scientist.

After all, he did create the orb of distortion which allows a shinigami to gain hollow powers and a device which allows a shinigami to gain bankai in 3 days.

Nowitzki

03-19-2008, 08:16 PM

The reason is not because Mayuri is not because Mayuri doesn't reside within Karakura town, it is because Mayuri doesn't understand how gargantas work. Mayuri said himself that the only person who has enough knowledge about gargantas to unseal them would be Urahara.

Ok, here:

Yamamoto knows Urahara can create a Garganta... which is why he asked him to do so.

Next subject now:

Yamamoto also told him to open up a way for the captains to get through to Hueco Mundo from SS, but Urahara doesn't live in SS does he? I think the reason most likely is that Mayuri is still inexperienced and his knowledge is not as great as Urahara.

Urahara is banished from Soul Society, so most likely the Captain's went to him in Karakura to travel to Hueco Mundo. No evidence is behind this though, but it makes the most sense.

But you keep straying from the argument. The fact that Urahara has more knowledge than Mayuri has nothing to do with power.

I just wanted to see the justification for why it's so hard to believe that Urahara could defeat the 4th Espada when Zaraki (whom many deem below Byakuya) could defeat the 5th. Yet, in the Byakuya vs Urahara thread it was stated that Urahara would win.

Ulquiorra, Nnoitra, and Byakuya have three completely different fighting styles. Nnoitra and Zaraki fight relatively the same... and Zaraki happened to be better than Nnoitra at fighting with brute force.

I assure you that Grimmjow, Zomari, and Szayel would all defeat Zaraki with ease. But this is off topic and I will not go any further into it.

Just because Zaraki can beat the fifth, doesn't change the fighting tactics and strength of any other fighters around that level.

But this is not the case with Urahara, such a power gap does not exist which prevents him from using his inventions. Even if you assume Urahara is physically weaker than Ulquiorra, he is not THAT far behind that Ulquiorra's reiatsu could pwn him like Ulquiorra probably could with Szayel. I would like to think his inventions would be far beyond Szayel's simply because he is the greater scientist.

Refer to your own quote:

I can only show you what's been shown in the manga.

I don't see where all of your assumptions come from, like "Even if you assume Urahara is physically weaker than Ulquiorra, he is not THAT far behind that Ulquiorra's reiatsu could pwn him like Ulquiorra probably could with Szayel"

After all, he did create the orb of distortion which allows a shinigami to gain hollow powers and a device which allows a shinigami to gain bankai in 3 days.

Yes he did.

diamondedge

03-19-2008, 08:16 PM

The reason I bring this up? To show his knowledge in science which can be used on the battlefield. What I'm saying is he probably has inventions which would be a great asset on the battlefield.
Since when is Bleach rock paper scissors?

This is just as bad as bringing Ichigo's victories up in a debate.

Argue with what we've seen from their abilities, not the outcome of the battles they had.

I just wanted to see the justification for why it's so hard to believe that Urahara could defeat the 4th Espada when Zaraki (whom many deem below Byakuya) could defeat the 5th. Yet, in the Byakuya vs Urahara thread it was stated that Urahara would win.
It is, because Ulquiorra has shown far more than Nnoitora, in terms of... everything?

I can only show you what's been shown in the manga.

Good. Then you admit you have no solid base for claiming Urahara can win.

After all, he did create the orb of distortion which allows a shinigami to gain hollow powers and a device which allows a shinigami to gain bankai in 3 days.
That proves his intelligence, not his power. If his tricks are too cheap to even harm Ulquiorra, I don't see them do much good.

A good scientist doesn't necessarily make a good warrior, especially when all he is facing is sheer power.

KholdStare

03-19-2008, 08:33 PM

Ok, here:

Next subject now:

I think I explicitly stated why I brought that up but you seemed to ignore it.

Urahara is banished from Soul Society, so most likely the Captain's went to him in Karakura to travel to Hueco Mundo. No evidence is behind this though, but it makes the most sense.

But you keep straying from the argument. The fact that Urahara has more knowledge than Mayuri has nothing to do with power.

And power is not the only thing which matters on a battlefield. Evidence of this? Szayel.

I assure you that Grimmjow, Zomari, and Szayel would all defeat Zaraki with ease. But this is off topic and I will not go any further into it.
Just because Zaraki can beat the fifth, doesn't change the fighting tactics and strength of any other fighters around that level.

Yes, they all defeat Zaraki because of some "cheap" ability they have. What I'm saying is Urahara would easily be able to devise some cheap ability like this.

I don't see where all of your assumptions come from, like "Even if you assume Urahara is physically weaker than Ulquiorra, he is not THAT far behind that Ulquiorra's reiatsu could pwn him like Ulquiorra probably could with Szayel"

There is no current Captain that could be brought to his knees simply by Ulquiorra's reiatsu, save for maybe Hitsugaya. So it's not much of a wild assumption, is it?

Since when is Bleach rock paper scissors?

This is just as bad as bringing Ichigo's victories up in a debate.

Argue with what we've seen from their abilities, not the outcome of the battles they had.

Shunsui has never been seen in a battle but his abilities are known through Yamamoto's praise, so you can't rely simply on what we've seen on the battlefield.

And Bleach is rock paper scissors when you have a scientist on the battlefield because that is how they fight, they bring a counter to everything you try to do.

Good. Then you admit you have no solid base for claiming Urahara can win.

Then you would also have no solid base for claiming that he can't win. It's obviously a lot of speculation on both our parts. Assuming he can't win because you haven't seen him fight is equally as speculative as saying he can win when I haven't seen him fight. The only thing we have to go by is what has been implied.

That proves his intelligence, not his power. If his tricks are too cheap to even harm Ulquiorra, I don't see them do much good.

A good scientist doesn't necessarily make a good warrior, especially when all he is facing is sheer power.

Very true, a scientist who lacks in everything else wouldn't make a good warrior, but that is not what Urahara is. He is a good scientist as well as a good warrior. He built himself a training ground in Soul Society for training purposes, one can assume he improved his skill there.

See Diamond, we can still have the debates like you wanted :)

I'll be leaving for a while so I'll resume this later.

Undying

03-19-2008, 08:51 PM

And power is not the only thing which matters on a battlefield. Evidence of this? Szayel.
And he is a former Espada reject, your point? The man is a weakling.

Yes, they all defeat Zaraki because of some "cheap" ability they have. What I'm saying is Urahara would easily be able to devise some cheap ability like this.
Zomari? Yeah. Szayel? Sure. Grimmjow doesn't know the meaning of cheap ability. He will simply outspeed/outmaneuver/outgun Zaraki. The moment a person can wrap their mind around the concept of dodging, avoiding Zaraki's attacks is simple.

Shunsui has never been seen in a battle but his abilities are known through Yamamoto's praise, so you can't rely simply on what we've seen on the battlefield.

And Bleach is rock paper scissors when you have a scientist on the battlefield because that is how they fight, they bring a counter to everything you try to do.
Urahara so far only managed to "bring a counter to everything" Yammy did, which is exactly two things; Bala and Cero.

Szayel was able to counter Ishida's/Renji's attacks, but they still nearly butchered him. His tricks are pretty much no good in battle against opponents with any significant strength. Any trick, in fact, comes out as nothing more than complimenting an existing battle ability - e.g., the portable Gigai used to avoid a Bala. If Urahara's battle ability is lower than Ulqiorra's (and so far that's the evidence, which the amount of power Ulqiorra's displayed compared to Urahara's pwning of the weakest Espada), then Ulqiorra would win.

Compare this to Rukia VS Aaroniero. Her tricks (Kido) were useless. She only "won" by sheer accident. And Aaroniero was not so significantly stronger than her in his unreleased form.

Helikaon

03-19-2008, 09:18 PM

At this point im tired, so I wont be completely entering the debate. But one thing people seem to be undermining is the gadgets side of Urahara. Now I know that you said Undying it wouldnt mean anything, but remember how much Szayel could do with the knowledge of his opponents?

The same can easily apply to Urahara. Not to mention he didnt need gadgets to analyze and completely negate Yammy's attack after the second time he used it, without the aid of gadgets. Urahara is insanely smart, I wonder if he could devise the means to negate Ulq's cero aswell, its a big possibility. Which in my opinion leaves alot of other things to question.

diamondedge

03-19-2008, 09:18 PM

Yes, they all defeat Zaraki because of some "cheap" ability they have. What I'm saying is Urahara would easily be able to devise some cheap ability like this.
Of course. But Ulquiorra hasn't shown anything that would go along with "cheap", he has only displayed control, power, and superiority.

And Bleach is rock paper scissors when you have a scientist on the battlefield because that is how they fight, they bring a counter to everything you try to do.
I strongly disagree. When characters of completely different abilities are in the argument, the whole if a>b and c>a doesn't mean that c>b.

Then you would also have no solid base for claiming that he can't win. It's obviously a lot of speculation on both our parts. Assuming he can't win because you haven't seen him fight is equally as speculative as saying he can win when I haven't seen him fight. The only thing we have to go by is what has been implied.

Actually, someone can't do something until you prove he can.

And I beg to differ, we've seen Ulquiorra and Urahara interact, and you know all about it so I won't repeat myself.

And it was something Urahara didn't predict.

Very true, a scientist who lacks in everything else wouldn't make a good warrior, but that is not what Urahara is. He is a good scientist as well as a good warrior. He built himself a training ground in Soul Society for training purposes, one can assume he improved his skill there.
Of course, I don't think Urahara is only a good scientist, but all the scientist we've seen so far haven't displayed much of the overall combat abilities, it actually was mostly trickery. that is why we need to see his full extent before labeling him as a scientist who knows his ways with a sword.

I don't doubt Urahara is powerful, but I'm certainly not going to say he knows it all either.

Guy

03-19-2008, 09:41 PM

Because its an attack matched for someone at Yami's level. Look i like Ulquiorra, he's my favorite Espada. Personally I hope he beats Ichigo to another inch closer to death then last time. But i just don't see him beating Urahara. Urahara is just smart, powerful, has Gadgets that mayuri probably only has wet dreams about. Plus if in his shikai he can match someone like Yami. How much more potent will he be in bankai.

Urahara used shikai to battle Yami; Ulquiorra used his barehands to push back Yami from doing something stupid in the same battle. Ulquiorra's barehands EQUAL to Urahara's shikai strikes. I think Ulquiorra is presenting himself much better than Urahara is.

Anyways, untill i get more info on both characters this is my last post on this specific thread. Same thing your asking me to prove i can ask you to prove that Ulq can too. Esp Given the momentum shift of the Capts pawning the espada with little to no effort.

So... has ANY of the captains we've seen so far pawn a vastlorde? kthnx.

Chi

03-19-2008, 09:44 PM

Ok let me get this straight-- Because Ulq slaps away an energy attack on Yami's level that Urahara whom can effectively be said as being in a Gigai fired effortlessly at an espada's level of power a reason that Ulq can beat Urahara? That's like saying if i throw a quater at a cat and some random dog gets in the way to stop my quater that, that dog now can beat me in a battle. As oppose to Me throwing a basketball at the dog. If the target had been Ulq i doubt he would have so effortlessly blasted it away because the smartest man in the series wouldn't go so light. And when Urahara fired that at Yami he was something less then serious so am sorry i don't think that is a good argument to compare the two.

Plus am pretty sure if Yami did get hit with that, it would have F'd his day up seriously. Anyways....

@_guy_ : show me proof that anyone is vaste lorde besides a silhouette that proves little next too nothing until its actually been said. Then i'll gladly admit I am wrong.

Guy

03-19-2008, 09:46 PM

Ok let me get this straight-- Because Ulq slaps away an energy attack on Yami's level that Urahara whom can effectively be said as being in a Gigai fired effortlessly at an espada's level of power a reason that Ulq can beat Urahara? That's like saying if i throw a quater at a cat and some random dog gets in the way to stop my quater that, that dog now can beat me in a battle. As oppose to Me throwing a basketball at the dog. If the target had been Ulq i doubt he would have so effortlessly blasted it away because the smartest man in the series wouldn't go so light. And when Urahara fired that at Yami he was something less then serious so am sorry i don't think that is a good argument to compare the two.

Plus am pretty sure if Yami did get hit with that, it would have F'd his day up seriously. Anyways....

You have proof that Urahara's shikai can be much stronger than the one he fired at Yami?

Chi

03-19-2008, 09:54 PM

You have proof that Urahara's shikai can be much stronger than the one he fired at Yami?

You just brought me right back to my original point that not enough information to speculate on either one's true abilities. And the only thing i can say is that he can match the bara blast, cero's, and Ichigo's GT's. But it's still wild speculations with nothing to really back it...

Undying

03-19-2008, 10:04 PM

Ok let me get this straight-- Because Ulq slaps away an energy attack on Yami's level that Urahara whom can effectively be said as being in a Gigai fired effortlessly at an espada's level of power a reason that Ulq can beat Urahara
No. It simply shows that Ulqiorra has a greater defensive capability without straining himself or taxing his energy in the slightest. Also, can you prove that Urahara wasn't using full power? Because considering it had enough power to obliterate a Ierro-clad Arrancar easily... Even if it was NOT Urahara's strongest blast, it had considerable power in it and Ulqiorra was still completely undamaged.
That's like saying if i throw a quater at a cat and some random dog gets in the way to stop my quater that, that dog now can beat me in a battle. As oppose to Me throwing a basketball at the dog.
If you rossed a quarter with enough force to destroy the cat, and the dog barged in, and the slapped your coin away without even looking like he was trying to look trying, yeah, I'd say there's a good chance said dog can beat you.
If the target had been Ulq i doubt he would have so effortlessly blasted it away because the smartest man in the series wouldn't go so light.
Possibly, but how is that evidence that Urahara's "not so light" blast would damage Ulqiorra? He can withstand a massive amount of damage without even being hurt.
And when Urahara fired that at Yami he was something less then serious so am sorry i don't think that is a good argument to compare the two.
Urahara's blast could have killed Yammy. It, therefore, had considerable amount of power in it, and Ulqiorra was undamaged. Ichigo's blast, which should be considerably more powerful, only singed Ulqiorra's clothes. If only by sheer defensive ability, Ulqiorra's power is already on a scale greater than what Urahara demonstrated, and Ulqiorra hasn't even drawn his sword yet, let alone released.

Plus am pretty sure if Yami did get hit with that, it would have F'd his day up seriously. Anyways....
Why would Ulqiorra care if Yammy was down? Except he'd rather not lose Espada. Anyway, if the blast had enough power to beat Yammy, it was extremely powerful.

@_guy_ : show me proof that anyone is vaste lorde besides a silhouette that proves little next too nothing until its actually been said. Then i'll gladly admit I am wrong.
Silhouette = Ulqiorra. Ulqiorra = Vastlord. 1-3 > 4. Therefore 1-3 = VL.

Simple logic...

smach

03-19-2008, 10:38 PM

this battle is almost 100% speculation n i don't rlly see the use of arguing about it, but IMO urahara takes this. he may be "just another scientist" to some but unlike the other two in the series, his experience and battle abilities along with intelligence put him above ichigo. his defensive abilities may not be at the level of taking vizard ichigo barehanded n getting no injuries, but he still has a bankai that will boost his power and probably has other gadgets that will enhance his battle abilities even more. he also does a good job of adapting to different environments, and doesn't take long to guage an opponent's attack strength and nullify it with his shikai. that also brings into the picture the flexibility he has with only shikai, but it would be a far stretch to assume he'll be able to cut or defeat ulquiorra with just that. aside from the potential of having a rlly powerful n effective bankai, urahara is/was also a hightier captain so his normal reiatsu must be in the range of shunsui and yama, plus there's still the possibility of having acquired hollow powers.

BUT, the mootness of all my speculation is that we've also never seen ulquiorra fight a serious battle...NEVER. unlike grimjow, he's never been forced into using his sword even once. he's also a serious bastard who only kills when he wants, which makes him even more terrifying. and not only that, but the fact that he also has a release (which i highly doubt grants him something as stupid and meaningless as regeration + four extra arms) just goes to show how stupid it is to speculate about two people whose potential is clearly greater than what we've seen.

@Guy: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/194/12/
"you should be able to tell just by looking...since deflecting it would be dangerous to bystanders, i merely dissipated it by meeting it with a blast of equal power."

benihime is similar to zangetsu with the exception that urahara can guage his attacks precisely unlike ichigo, plus she (benihime) has more flexibility in ability/use than a bunch of reiatsu-augmented slashes.

Chi

03-19-2008, 11:31 PM

No. It simply shows that Ulqiorra has a greater defensive capability without straining himself or taxing his energy in the slightest. Also, can you prove that Urahara wasn't using full power? Because considering it had enough power to obliterate a Ierro-clad Arrancar easily... Even if it was NOT Urahara's strongest blast, it had considerable power in it and Ulqiorra was still completely undamaged.

I respect your opinion, but i still retain my disposition. Ulq could beat yami without releasing while yami's released. So its not a fair assumption that his defenses are so superior based on that. Yami's level is 6 down from him so its not even a fair distraction to watch that. Nor saying anything on yami's level aimed at Ulq is a test of his defenses. Its more an insult to Ulq then anything. Hence why am saying its not a good foundation to build an argument about comparable strengths.

If you rossed a quarter with enough force to destroy the cat, and the dog barged in, and the slapped your coin away without even looking like he was trying to look trying, yeah, I'd say there's a good chance said dog can beat you.

....ROFL, oh.... not even going to bother...

Possibly, but how is that evidence that Urahara's "not so light" blast would damage Ulqiorra? He can withstand a massive amount of damage without even being hurt.

Well given that he always studies his opponents reiatsu before, during and possibly even after a fight if he deemed it necessary he would have wen into Bankai and attacked from there. If he knew he couldn't win the fight and was totally outclassed then I seriously think he would have been the one to withdraw. Which he didn't.

Urahara's blast could have killed Yammy. It, therefore, had considerable amount of power in it, and Ulqiorra was undamaged. Ichigo's blast, which should be considerably more powerful, only singed Ulqiorra's clothes. If only by sheer defensive ability, Ulqiorra's power is already on a scale greater than what Urahara demonstrated, and Ulqiorra hasn't even drawn his sword yet, let alone released.

Again using Ichigo as medium to compare strength or figure out who could beat who is unwise so i am going to dismiss that.

Why would Ulqiorra care if Yammy was down? Except he'd rather not lose Espada. Anyway, if the blast had enough power to beat Yammy, it was extremely powerful.

I don't know why he saved him... But he also later on admits to bringing Yammi's arm back too so maybe they're buddies how should I know?

Silhouette = Ulqiorra. Ulqiorra = Vastlord. 1-3 > 4. Therefore 1-3 = VL.

Simple logic...

Not sufficient information... sorry i specifically said other then the silhouette.

Oh and here's further proof of why i think Ulq would lose; he said it himself to Yami.

http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/15-20080319182812.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/15-20080319182812.jpg/view/)

So its clear: ULq to Yami: Idiot, are you out of your mind, yami? these two are Urahara Kisuke and Shihouin Yorouichi. They're far beyond your level... At this rate we'll lose unless... we escape.

His words not mine.... CHURCH!!!!

KholdStare

03-19-2008, 11:35 PM

Of course. But Ulquiorra hasn't shown anything that would go along with "cheap", he has only displayed control, power, and superiority.

The cheapness I was referring to was the cheapness which Urahara may bring to the battlefield with his gadgets.

I understand Ulquiorra's fighting strategy is very straightforward.

Actually, someone can't do something until you prove he can.

But you can't say he can't do something until you prove he can't.

And I beg to differ, we've seen Ulquiorra and Urahara interact, and you know all about it so I won't repeat myself.

I'm sure if Urahara knew he was going up against Ulquiorra he wouldn't resort to such elementary attacks. When he fought Yammy again, he wanted to have fun while he fought him, he wouldn't do the same for Ulquiorra.

Of course, I don't think Urahara is only a good scientist, but all the scientist we've seen so far haven't displayed much of the overall combat abilities, it actually was mostly trickery. that is why we need to see his full extent before labeling him as a scientist who knows his ways with a sword.

This is why I believe he built a training ground, to improve his "ways with a sword". After all, he has devised a way to get bankai in 3 days. Don't you think he probably had other things which he used to improve his combat techniques?

I don't doubt Urahara is powerful, but I'm certainly not going to say he knows it all either.

He doesn't know it all, but he probably knows the most of any other scientist. Sure, he may not know as much about Espadas as much as Szayel may have but I'm pretty sure he would easily be able to devise something to put his opponent at a severe disadvantage.

Undying

03-20-2008, 12:31 AM

I respect your opinion, but i still retain my disposition. Ulq could beat yami without releasing while yami's released. So its not a fair assumption that his defenses are so superior based on that. Yami's level is 6 down from him so its not even a fair distraction to watch that. Nor saying anything on yami's level aimed at Ulq is a test of his defenses. Its more an insult to Ulq then anything. Hence why am saying its not a good foundation to build an argument about comparable strengths.
You still ignore the fact that Yammy's defenses are quite high due to Ierro. An attack that can destroy him will necessarily be extremely powerful. Ulqiorra wasn't even damaged by it. Also, Ichigo's GT.
....ROFL, oh.... not even going to bother...
You should, considering your allusion doesn't include all the facts.

Well given that he always studies his opponents reiatsu before, during and possibly even after a fight if he deemed it necessary he would have wen into Bankai and attacked from there. If he knew he couldn't win the fight and was totally outclassed then I seriously think he would have been the one to withdraw. Which he didn't.
How could he study Ulqiorra's reiatsu if Ulq wasn't even DOING anything? If Ulqiorra was hiding his reiatsu and just standing there, Urahara naturally ignored him - he wasn't posing a threat. Also, there is no way of knowing how much extra power hides beneath an Espada release. Ulqiorra's release would necessarily make him extra powerful due to his already extravagant power. And the fact still remains that so far no one managed to even scratch Ulq.

Again using Ichigo as medium to compare strength or figure out who could beat who is unwise so i am going to dismiss that.
Once again you misread. I'm not using Ichigo as a strength comparison. I am using him as a defensive ability comparison. Ulqiorra was not scratched by any attack so far, Ichigo's included. An attack which could hurt Urahara, badly so. As I said, only sheer defensive ability already sets them worlds apart - Ulqiorra is simply immune to attacks.

I don't know why he saved him... But he also later on admits to bringing Yammi's arm back too so maybe they're buddies how should I know?
What does it matter? He was still undamaged by an attack that would have hurt Yammy badly if not killed him. That attack, therefore, would necessarily have high offensive power in it. Ulqiorra wasn't evenn burned, let alone damaged.

Not sufficient information... sorry i specifically said other then the silhouette.
Power demonstration. I don't like using the silhouette example either (Yammy is an Ajucha but all the other Ajucha so far have shown forms far more similar to VLs). Ulqiorra's demonstrated power and feats overshadows that of virtually everyone else. Defensive ability - completely unharmed by attacks of insane scale, both from Ichigo AND Urahara. Offensive ability - Cero and hand. He hasn't even drawn his sword yet. And lastly, his release, which would necessarily make him even MORE powerful than now.

Oh and here's further proof of why i think Ulq would lose; he said it himself to Yami.

http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/15-20080319182812.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/15-20080319182812.jpg/view/)

So its clear: ULq to Yami: Idiot, are you out of your mind, yami? these two are Urahara Kisuke and Shihouin Yorouichi. They're far beyond your level... At this rate we'll lose unless... we escape.

His words not mine.... CHURCH!!!!
Translation error. He says that they are in fact stronger than YAMMY (which is perfectly true). He doesn't include himself in this, and for good reason - just look at the insane amounts of power he demonstrated. Gadgets and tricks won't save Urahara, and Ulqiorra already showed more power than him without actually DOING anything.

Chi

03-20-2008, 01:15 AM

You still ignore the fact that Yammy's defenses are quite high due to Ierro. An attack that can destroy him will necessarily be extremely powerful. Ulqiorra wasn't even damaged by it. Also, Ichigo's GT.

That's saying that Ulq can beat Yami... we already know that and Ichigo's GT... means nothing because one person's strengths or weakness isn't necessarily applicable in a comparisson to anothers. Mike Tyson vs Ali can in no way be used to measure Ali's strength against Frasier. Know what i mean.

You should, considering your allusion doesn't include all the facts.

Ease off... just let it go. If you didn't catch the humor of what i was saying then its a waste to even bring it up any further.

How could he study Ulqiorra's reiatsu if Ulq wasn't even DOING anything? If Ulqiorra was hiding his reiatsu and just standing there, Urahara naturally ignored him - he wasn't posing a threat. Also, there is no way of knowing how much extra power hides beneath an Espada release. Ulqiorra's release would necessarily make him extra powerful due to his already extravagant power. And the fact still remains that so far no one managed to even scratch Ulq.

If zaraki who admits to being bad with sensing Reiatsu can sense komamura and Tousen hiding their Spiritual pressure then am sure Urahara can do better then him. He is the most gifted Scientist the Gotei 13 have ever seen. Plus If your explanations to me about Bankai's are accurate there's no need to assume that him releasing makes him any more or less stronger unless your telling me now that Bankai provides an extra release of Reiatsu to he who would call it out.

Once again you misread. I'm not using Ichigo as a strength comparison. I am using him as a defensive ability comparison. Ulqiorra was not scratched by any attack so far, Ichigo's included. An attack which could hurt Urahara, badly so. As I said, only sheer defensive ability already sets them worlds apart - Ulqiorra is simply immune to attacks.

I think your over rating Ulq's defensive abilities just a little bit here, and using Ichigo's attack as the ultimate attack thus far is a little wrong given we've yet to see Urahara, Ukitake, Yamma-jii, Shunsui go all out, i've skipped some of the other captains because i don't think they'd be worth mentioning in this scenario. But as i stated before One person's ultimate attack isn't necessarily greater or equal to another. So his defenses so far have seem to be good, against Yami sized attacks and Ichigo's but no telling how his defenses would be compared to a Serious all out fight against anyone of the other capts It just doesn't work.

What does it matter? He was still undamaged by an attack that would have hurt Yammy badly if not killed him. That attack, therefore, would necessarily have high offensive power in it. Ulqiorra wasn't evenn burned, let alone damaged.

see above...

Power demonstration. I don't like using the silhouette example either (Yammy is an Ajucha but all the other Ajucha so far have shown forms far more similar to VLs). Ulqiorra's demonstrated power and feats overshadows that of virtually everyone else. Defensive ability - completely unharmed by attacks of insane scale, both from Ichigo AND Urahara. Offensive ability - Cero and hand. He hasn't even drawn his sword yet. And lastly, his release, which would necessarily make him even MORE powerful than now.

That doesn't imply he's a VL, The difference in power you imply exist betwen all Espada already. Just so you know I do think he may be a VL myself but for the sake of this argument its irrelevant because I also suspect Urahara a Vizard. But both are arguments for different threads and should remain there.

Translation error. He says that they are in fact stronger than YAMMY (which is perfectly true). He doesn't include himself in this, and for good reason - just look at the insane amounts of power he demonstrated. Gadgets and tricks won't save Urahara, and Ulqiorra already showed more power than him without actually DOING anything.

Not so sure because I checked a few seperate sources and they all had the same basic meaning that we should withdraw because staying wouldn't end well for us (Ulq and Yami). But i am willing concede that somethings may have been lost in translation, and if you can find another translation and show me... we can debate on it then. Untill then Ciao!!

Undying

03-20-2008, 01:59 AM

That's saying that Ulq can beat Yami... we already know that and Ichigo's GT... means nothing because one person's strengths or weakness isn't necessarily applicable in a comparisson to anothers. Mike Tyson vs Ali can in no way be used to measure Ali's strength against Frasier. Know what i mean.
Uh, no, once again you seem to think I'm using ICHIGO as a measure to VICTORY. Ichigo's Vaizard GT attack is the strongest singular attack we've seen in the series to date, you are welcome to bring me a scan of an attack with greater power (not the possibility, an actual ATTACK). It's a perfectly valid comparison; Ali's punch is weaker than Tyson's. Doesn't have anything to do with their victory or loss, just that the ATTACK itself is weaker or stronger. Ichigo's attack was FAR more powerful than anything demonstrated to date (with the POSSIBLE exception of Gran Ray Cero). Ulqiorra was completely undamaged by Ichigo's attack (which is supposed to be the nearly strongest attack thus far).

If he's immune to the greatest level of offensive power shown, how is anyone going to beat him? And yes, I know Yamamoto blah blah blah, but those are WHAT IFs.

Ease off... just let it go. If you didn't catch the humor of what i was saying then its a waste to even bring it up any further.
Humor or not humor, you brought up an allusion and you managed to mess it up.

If zaraki who admits to being bad with sensing Reiatsu can sense komamura and Tousen hiding their Spiritual pressure then am sure Urahara can do better then him. He is the most gifted Scientist the Gotei 13 have ever seen. Plus If your explanations to me about Bankai's are accurate there's no need to assume that him releasing makes him any more or less stronger unless your telling me now that Bankai provides an extra release of Reiatsu to he who would call it out.
He can sense they are HOLDING BACK. How does that indicate he knows what they are really CAPABLE OF? Remember Trunks in DBZ? The Scouter showed his power level being 5. Now let's say the henchman would've realized Trunks was holding back. Does that indicate he knows Trunks' full power? Nope.

Urahara may have been able to tell Ulqiorra is holding back his reiatsu (keep in mind they weren't actually engaging each other in a fight, as opposed to Zaraki and the two others). But he would have had NO idea of Ulqiorra's true power.

And I can't see how bankai comes into this. I haven't yet said that Ulqiorra's release will make him win, I just said it is an exponential increase in power that counters Urahara's, so this is irrelevant.

I think your over rating Ulq's defensive abilities just a little bit here, and using Ichigo's attack as the ultimate attack thus far is a little wrong given we've yet to see Urahara, Ukitake, Yamma-jii, Shunsui go all out, i've skipped some of the other captains because i don't think they'd be worth mentioning in this scenario. But as i stated before One person's ultimate attack isn't necessarily greater or equal to another. So his defenses so far have seem to be good, against Yami sized attacks and Ichigo's but no telling how his defenses would be compared to a Serious all out fight against anyone of the other capts It just doesn't work.
see above...
Again, you're arguing speculative material. MAYBE, Urahara can generate an offensive power greater than Ichigo's GT or Gran Ray Cero in one attack. That is a possibility, a WHAT IF. What ifs are worth as much as anime fillers; nothing.

What IF Ulqiorra can floor Yamamoto with his released reiatsu?

What IF the Espada are restricted to 1/5 of their power like the captains in the real world?

What if Ichigo died? What if Rukia died? What if Bleach fighters used their heads and actually tried to kill each other with hits to the head all the time?

Right now, what we KNOW is that Ulqiorra withstood the most powerful/second most powerful attack in the series without taking any damage to his person. That is FACT. Whether Urahara can generate an offensive power greater than this is negated by the fact that Ulqiorra was clearly NOT using his 100% power to block Ichigo's attack. IF Urahara can generate an offensive power that is greater than Ichigo's Vizard GT - and keep in mind we're treading thin ice here, it's the WHAT IF again - then Ulqiorra CAN (and this is FACT) generate a greater offensive and defensive power than what he has shown. He is still superior. Also, armor tends to have the same defensive value in a joke fight and in an all out fight.

That doesn't imply he's a VL, The difference in power you imply exist betwen all Espada already. Just so you know I do think he may be a VL myself but for the sake of this argument its irrelevant because I also suspect Urahara a Vizard. But both are arguments for different threads and should remain there.
We've seen power difference, but not on this scale. Ulqiorra has shown power that is by FAR exceeding any of the Espada below him (those above him are stated to be stronger). Even Nnoitora and Grimmjow hadn't demonstrated this level of power difference (despite Grimmjow being clearly the superior fighter). This kind of drastic level jump, from a slight difference in power (Grimmjow/Nnoitora) to the gigantic difference between Nnoitora and Ulqiorra indicates that Ulqiorra is in fact a superior Hollow species.

Compare the differences between Ajucha - Szayel/Zomari, who are pretty much equal with Zomari's ability being maybe slightly more advantageous in a fight (debatable really) to the power jump from Ulqiorra and Grimmjow. Grimmjow was scarred by a simple GT. Ulqiorra wasn't even scratched by a maximum-power Vizard GT. The difference in power is VERY evident and therefore indicates that Ulqiorra would either be a far more powerful Ajucha (which is unlikely), or a VL (which is likely as those babies are said to be extraordinarily more powerful).

Not so sure because I checked a few seperate sources and they all had the same basic meaning that we should withdraw because staying wouldn't end well for us (Ulq and Yami). But i am willing concede that somethings may have been lost in translation, and if you can find another translation and show me... we can debate on it then. Untill then Ciao!!
"You don't stand a chance against us as you have to defend wounded allies". If Ulq had no chance, why did he say that?

Also, yeah, I can't find anymore scans other than the one in Bleach Exile and I cbf to look for it atm, but let's say Ulqiorra said "we'll lose".

He still clearly demonstrated superior offensive and defensive capabilities as I've clearly proven above. He's either hinting towards a greater goal, another threat, or he's not interested in losing an Espada (even Neliel saved Nnoitora so as not to lose a member of the Espada).

Also, here's another point which you seem to ignore... Ulqiorra was speaking about both Urahara and Yoruichi together as a team. Two people with captain-like powers are probably a serious threat even to Ulqiorra simply because of their number and teamwork. This is fighting against Urahara alone.