Can an evil angel exist?

[Daeruke]

I got this idea from 8th squad captain's poem

[Sakura]

i think it depends on how you want to define "evil angel."

if you're going the religious way, then yes there is an evil angel.
if you're going a general anyone can come up with the idea way, then why not since anything is possible.

[Daeruke]

N that ends that . Snif.......:(

[lmegera]

Well define evil because techically anything can be evil!!

[nighthawksw]

of course.
Lucifer/the devil was an angel.
I really dont think you can call "satan" a good angel.

[Thaliel]

I read Angel Sanctuary, and that had a lot of "evil" angels in it, so why not.

[Minami Ikki]

Just to be totally idiotic, and base everything on games here's one for you
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c38/Restrictedwind/vlcsnap-867676.png
ONE WINGED ANGEL ONE WINGED EVIL ANGEL!

[MVIK]

Anything is possible.

[silverwolf801]

Yeah plus without evil angels there can't be good angels

[MVIK]

Yeap... like ppl said n what we've seen n read, everything must be balance. There have to be good n evil, balance like my chem equations.... -.-"

[lmegera]

^^ chem equations ^^
::friendly slap::
whats the root word for angel??? and what does it mean??

[Ritam]

i think that angels r supposed to be good..and if there was an evil angel then it would be classified as a demon...

[MVIK]

.... i got slap pulak, thx nieway, gone crazy about chem equation since last night.
Root word for angel? Dont know wat's that but here's wat i got from the dictionary.

Etymology: Middle English, from Old English engel & Old French angele; both from Late Latin angelus, from Greek angelos, literally, messenger
1 a : a spiritual being superior to man in power and intelligence; especially : one in the lowest rank in the celestial hierarchy b plural : an order of angels -- see CELESTIAL HIERARCHY
2 : an attendant spirit or guardian
3 : a white-robed winged figure of human form in fine art
4 : MESSENGER, HARBINGER <angel of death>
5 : a person like an angel (as in looks or behavior)
6 Christian Science : inspiration from God
7 : one (as a backer of a theatrical venture) who aids or supports with money or influence

[Sandal Hat]

Evil Angel totally contradicts itself. Angels are suppose to be without sin. Once Lucifer was filled with inequity he was cast down from heaven

[Daeruke]

I dont read the bible.:)

[MVIK]

Me either, but i heard b4 that once an Angel has sins, they're called as Fallen Angels

[lmegera]

Look... 4 : MESSENGER, HARBINGER <angel of death>

Dude... if you need any vindication about evil angels existing.. watch Dogma...

[MVIK]

How bout Constantine?

[nighthawksw]

Evil Angel totally contradicts itself. Angels are suppose to be without sin. Once Lucifer was filled with inequity he was cast down from heaven

alright man, read that over again. That's like saying no commoner commits a crime. Because, ya kno, after they commit a crime, they become a criminal.
Doesn't matter if after an angel commits a crime, they become a demon...it means that angels CAN be bad. You can't just say that "Oh no, once an angel commits a sin it's not an angel anymore, so it doesn't count", that's not how it works.

[Sandal Hat]

alright man, read that over again. That's like saying no commoner commits a crime. Because, ya kno, after they commit a crime, they become a criminal.
Doesn't matter if after an angel commits a crime, they become a demon...it means that angels CAN be bad. You can't just say that "Oh no, once an angel commits a sin it's not an angel anymore, so it doesn't count", that's not how it works.
Let me put it this way. Angels have to potential to do evil. Once they sin they are cast down. So i guess there is an evil angel for the small amount of time before God casts them down and they are not considered angels anymore

[Hansy]

Yeap... like ppl said n what we've seen n read, everything must be balance. There have to be good n evil, balance like my chem equations.... -.-"

Wow, your right...It never occured to me that for something to be 'good' it has to be compared to something less good, which would be 'evil'. Hmm, wow, I certainly learned something. Anyway, as I looked on dictionary.com for the definition. Angel as a word, defines somone as good, so there cannot be an evil angel. But religiously, its just somone with wings and a halo (Christianity). Which doesn't say much about alignment.

[Sandal Hat]

. But religiously, its just somone with wings and a halo (Christianity). Which doesn't say much about alignment.
Evil doesn't exist in heaven (Christianity)They are good by default :)

[Hansy]

Evil doesn't exist in heaven (Christianity)They are good by default :)

I didn't say in heave, just in the religion. See Bold.

A typically benevolent celestial being that acts as an intermediary between heaven and earth, especially in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Zoroastrianism.
A representation of such a being, especially in Christianity, conventionally in the image of a human figure with a halo and wings.
angels Christianity. The last of the nine orders of angels in medieval angelology. From the highest to the lowest in rank, the orders are: seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominations or dominions, virtues, powers, principalities, archangels, and angels.
A guardian spirit or guiding influence.

Nothing there says anything about being in heaven or being good.

[Sandal Hat]

My God, If you read the Bible you know that Angels are in Heaven(according to the Bible). Where do you think they(GOOD angels) exist, Hell?

A typically benevolent celestial being that acts as an intermediary between heaven and earth, especially in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Zoroastrianism.
A representation of such a being, especially in Christianity, conventionally in the image of a human figure with a halo and wings.
angels Christianity. The last of the nine orders of angels in medieval angelology. From the highest to the lowest in rank, the orders are: seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominations or dominions, virtues, powers, principalities, archangels, and angels.
A guardian spirit or guiding influence.


Edit: There are good angels, and there are bad angels. All of them were created as holy angels, but about a third of them rebelled against God and fell from their sinless position. Satan, the leader of these demons or unholy angels, is a liar, a murderer, and a thief.

If you mean that there are evil angels in heaven then that is wrong. The fallen angels(unholy) are demons. So yes evil angels can exist but not in Heaven

[Hansy]

Thats why I said it depended on which definition you were taking it for.
If you say...'oh your such an angel', that is used as a compliment of them being a good person. But if you say, 'You have a halo and wings' then technically by definition they are still an angel. But could just be evil.
And no I didn't read the bible, because whether or not angels are good goes beyond just christianity, I was only using that as an example, if they have to be good in Christianity well then they are, I dunno. But as angels are fictional, its really up to what you want to believe is all i'm saying.

Also, like I said before, if angels are 'good', then whats bad? You could say a demon, or you could say a fallen angel, which is still a type of angel. Anyway i'm kinda rambling so i'll just sya my poitn and be done with it.

And angel as an adjective I think has to be good, you don't tell a murderer he's an angel. But by description and definition, they can be evil.

Also, the two definitions you have had flaws a 'typically' benevolent being, doesn't mean they are all good. And a guiding spirit can easily guide you to evil.

Edit: I read your edit >>, and I guess thats kinda the point I was trying to make. I thought you were saying every angel had to be good.

[Sandal Hat]

I agree, it seems like we had the same idea

Btw the Bible was just an example there are other religions with angels in them too.

[Hansy]

Guess thats settled then, I'll give other people a chance to ramble for now XD

[bebe50UL]

iunnoe.. but I dont believe EVIL angels.

[nighthawksw]

believe evil angels? yeah, prolly a good idea cuz they're prolly trying to trick you.

[Hansy]

Well it really depends how you think of an angel. Thinking of them as a person with wings and a halo. Then yes, they can be evil, probably often percived with grey/black wings and called a fallen angel. But if you think of an angel as an avatar of good, then no there really can't be a bad, avatar of good. And if you think of it from religious standpoint, like SandalHat said, there can be both.

I personally think of it like this. An angel is an avatar of good. A Fallen angel is somone who was good, but then became bad, so could be considered a bad angel.

[Fect]

Read Dante's Inferno.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

Lucifer was a supposedly a Seraphim. So if the most evil can come from the highest branch of angels then I think there can be. It's most likely that those who carry such thoughts are expelled and become devils.

[FascionViktem5k]

Read Dante's Inferno.

oh i love Dante's Inferno! and Purgatory and Paradise!!!! no one should die without reading these books!!!! do it!!! now!!

[Hansy]

Is it really that good, whats it about anyway?

[FascionViktem5k]

a story of a character named Dante (the author decided to use himself i guess) who goes on a journey through Hell, Purgatory and Heaven... he just goes through different 'levels' of each... it's actually one big giant poem... but when it's translated.. the poeminess is gone... i would get a book that has the original along side with the translated.. the original was in Italian.. if you speak Italian then just get the original... it's a really interesting read... and his ideas on how each one looks like is pretty cool too... cuz instead of Hell, Purgatory and Heaven being just each one a big place.. there's different levels of each and as you progress (for example the Inferno) the lower you go the worse the crimes that were commited... and i really like how he believes that instead of something being done to you as punishment your supposed to in a way repeat your sin for eternity... or until judgement day... cuz there's references to that as well.. it's cool... your local library or school library should have a copy... but read them in succession... the Inferno, then Purgatory, and finally Paradise...

[captain_soifon]

Me either, but i heard b4 that once an Angel has sins, they're called as Fallen Angels
yea.. and fallen angels = demons,
when lucifer defied God he had 1/3 of angels on his side they had a war a lost and were banished of the kingdom of God and sent down and were known as "fallen angels" or "demons"

[maximoose666]

when lucifer defied God he had 1/3 of angels on his side they had a war a lost and were banished of the kingdom of God and sent down and were known as "fallen angels" or "demons"
And therefore, presumably, being against God, who is necessarily good, they were therefore evil - so they were bad angels, IF: the fallen angels were indeed angels after the moment they fell. So were they? And seeing as we're recommending works of literature, I'd say read Milton's epic Paradise Lost for a complete story of the fall of man and the war between God and Satan.

[FascionViktem5k]

well that all makes sense when you say it like that... nicely put...

[_strangechild_]

I didn't know Satan was 'against' God.
God made all, so that means God made angels. I'm not sure what religion this is in, but I heard that God knows every piece of hair on your head before you're created. So God must have known they'd turn bad, based on this. Anyways, I thought the Devil was sent to 'test' people and their obidence to God and such. I thought they 'obeyed' him by being.. bad. But I dunno much about these things. ^^ I didn't get a lot of the Christian stories of Adam and Eve when I first heard them, took a massive conversation to get me to just about understand... a little. =P

[thief.13]

yes he does know every piece of hair on your head and stuff like that (i think it's in Psalms 139, not so sure)

but God gave people FREE WILL, everything he made was good and He loved us so much that he didn't want us to be mere minions following orders, so he gave us the choice whether to follow him or not.

Satan, used to be an angel but he got power hungry. and sais to God that he will make people follow him, and since God gave us free will he allowed Satan to test the people he made. but when the people decide to choose God, He doesn't hesitate to go to them and protect them from Satan.

this is what i learned from my Christian background.
i hope i helped clear your confusion a bit.

[RukiaLovin_1988]

Well when you think about it...There is no good or evil. They are just conflicting ideal bases that will do the same exact thing to futher there causes. Think back to the Crusades. The pope allowed the murder of thousands of Muslums and Jews in the "Name of God". So when you think about it. Nieter is good and nieter is evil. So saying that there are "Good" and "Evil" angles is Rhetorical. They just have differet belife structures.

[thief.13]

i think good or evil is universal and constant. the pope was evil for allowing the murder of muslims and jews in the name of god.in the christian context: he broke two of the ten commandments:you shall not use the name of God in Vain and you shall not kill.so he still is evil despite the fact that he said it was for God and it was good to kill all those people.

[_strangechild_]

Ah yes, thank you Thief.13. I see what you mean.


I see what you mean, but we (people - or most) have defied what 'bad' is on roughly the same thinking level, we just have a few of the odd people who do bad things and think it's good and thus claim it in God's name, which I think is wrong because I don't recall a lot of things being said by God for people to do when it's things like bombing up people. We made the good and bad list and try to stick to it so I think it does exists in that way if that made aaannnyyy sense.

[RukiaLovin_1988]

What is bad to one is good to another. What a contrast. When Lucifer rebled he thought it was "Good" but god thought it was "Bad". So back to the Good and Bad dont exist. They are just different ways of thinking.

[maximoose666]

What is bad to one is good to another. What a contrast.
Well, well... Here goes:
Firstly, we're discussing whether a bad angel can exist, and we've defined angel as one originating in the Christian religion. Therefore, in the ruleset of the little universe we're debating in, there is an absolute good, and that is God Himself. Therefore for the purposes of this debate, moral relativism doesn't really have much use.
Secondly, see Plato's Dialogues for Socrates' thouroughly non-Christian attempts to establish absolute moral values. Your comment above is not neccesarily wrong in the real world; but it is far from proven.

[Tatsumaru_Ishida]

Both must exist because you can't have one without the other, also good point to remember is how you define evil, lot of evil people don't think they are 'evil' they just believe what they are doing is 'right'. even if it isn't.

I know it's fictional but Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is a good example of this, the choices he made that led to his fall where made out of his love towards padme and his fear for her death, the concept that he was evil didn't enter his mind once.

[Dark Fire]

Evil Angel totally contradicts itself. Angels are suppose to be without sin. Once Lucifer was filled with inequity he was cast down from heaven

not entirely angels were created with the same knowage of good an evil we are but like Jesus are able to live thier live w/o sin if they choose, when they commit sin then yes they are casted out of heaven but it takes along time for then to turn into demons think of a corps decaying. But satan still has his angelic body because he was an archangel like Micheal when satan fell he took a fleet of angels w/ him which we know as demons when satan returns to the earth (the tribulation) he will took to an unsupecting world as god him self I wish I had my King James bible w/ me so I could use some quotes

Oh by the way take all of what I write impariataly I am Atheist but My father is a Pastor and I go to Church so I know ALOT of the bible (I just don't belive it)

[maximoose666]

when they commit sin then yes they are casted out of heaven but it takes along time for then to turn into demons think of a corps decaying
Which would mean that an evil angel can exist for a while. Interesting statement btw, I'd like to know what Bible passage/ evidence it's based on.

[Dark Fire]

actually that part was based off a trem paper My friend did at his pastorial college so I don't know what research he used, but the part about satain retaining his angilic body is a through out the book of revaltion

[FascionViktem5k]

in genesis when God created everything didn't he say that it was "good"? and he said that man was good... i'm not really sure where i'm going with this but bear with me.. when God says it's good.. it has to be that... and if it isn't good than it's bad... and if whoever doesn't think it's good.. then they must be bad for disagreeing with God.. even though we have free will... and i thought that man was the only one that God gave free will to? ... now thinking about this.. even though i'm not sure where i'm going... if an angel sees this and doesn't think it's right the angel would then be considered bad... so... i guess yes.. and besides Satan is the angel Lucifer who was cast down from heaven by God.. so that should have answered the question a while back... watever.. do i make sense?

[WAHCHING]

evil angels are fallen angels.

[FascionViktem5k]

that's wat we've been trying to say...

[Dark Fire]

yes but there still angels none the less (angels would have to have free will in order to reject gods orders and thus be cast out from heaven)

[shadowfox1323]

i think that ark angels exist and that they can become evil after a while but no i dont think any angel is born evil

and evil angels are actually fallen angesl there is not evil one that are born like that

[maximoose666]

evil angels are fallen angels
Yes, unless they cease being angels the moment they fall. So do they?

[FascionViktem5k]

Yes, unless they cease being angels the moment they fall. So do they?

well i don't think we can answer that since we haven't personally witnessed an angel being cast down.. but in the movie Constantine the angel who was trying to help Lucifer's son was turned human(by God).. so i guess they turn human... and it was the same in City Of Angels.. when the angel character "died" he basically turned himself human... i dunno.. i haven't seen an angel be cast down and all that crap...

[maximoose666]

haven't seen an angel be cast down and all that crap... Nor me, lol XD.
But I wonder if one of the more scriptually versed among us has an answer.

[Genjoumoonfang]

there is no such thing as a fallen angel

angels cannot fall because they are resurrected and perfected beings that cannot be corrupted
Lucifer has no body but angels do.
Lucifers followers have no body.

Lucifer and his evil followers have no body and are jealous of us because we do.

because he is jealous he tries to bend us to his will, but we have to give in to him and choose to let him dominate our will.
Angels do not fall because they are more powerful than lucifer, because they have bodies and the Spirit of god with them at all times.

[thief.13]

i think fallen here means "fallen from God's glory" and not literally falling from heaven to earth. and aren't angels of the same substance as souls but are significantly higher than average human souls?

[Genjoumoonfang]

there are also Spirits that minister to men.
righteous and evil.
to tell the difference shake hands.
if he tries to shake your hand he is deceiving and therefore is evil
a righteous spirit will not shake your hand but tell you that he has no body and cant shake your hand.

i think fallen here means "fallen from God's glory" and not literally falling from heaven to earth. and aren't angels of the same substance as souls but are significantly higher than average human souls?

yes there are fallen spirits angels are glorified and ressurected
I am LDS and i believe
that before the earth began there was a large debate. Between Christ and Lucifer about who was to take on the role of redeemer. Lucifer wanted everyone to follow a set plan and take away everyones choice and the Glory goes to lucifer. Christ wanted the Lords Will to be done and Glory to the lord and that included making sure that we still had our right to choice which was a gift that we were spiritually born with.

now. 1/3 of the Spirits of heaven chose Lucifers plan and were cast out of heaven and will NEVER receive a body. The other 2/3 that chose Christs Plan Come down to the earth Given a body and have their "choice" or "Agency" tested. and thats where we are now.

[thief.13]

a friend told me that angels are different from souls and that fallen angels roam the earth as they do not have a place in heaven and they're probably those things that possess other people.i'm not too sure about this. i still have to read.:)

[Genjoumoonfang]

Fallen angels how you are describing them are spirits not souls.
A soul is Spirit and body together.

yes there are Spirits that roam the earth. they are in a different dimension. and the evil ones possess only if you let them possess you.

[FascionViktem5k]

this is really deep in here.. and i can't add anything.. we're way too into the religion now and i can't really add anything... but i'm liking wat Genjou is saying..

[Genjoumoonfang]

thank you.

[captain_soifon]

yes but there still angels none the less (angels would have to have free will in order to reject gods orders and thus be cast out from heaven)
actually lucifer planted seeds of doubt in the angels causing them to worship him and go against god
Edit: most of us believe in God?

[Genjoumoonfang]

actually lucifer planted seeds of doubt in the angels causing them to worship him and go against god


Actually Since we have established that the spirits have Agency/choice.
Lucifer persuaded them like a politician persuades voters, Subtle and an expert of Language.
It sounded good to them so they went with it.

[Sakura]

whoa! this got really religious since the last time i posted. so i will state my religious belief and let everyone hack it to shreds. o_O

i don't believe in fallen/evil angels. although the bible claims that lucifer is an evil/fallen angel, for some reason i can't see that. being that lucifer is a creation of god and a perfect being, how can he turn from god like that?

i believe that lucifer did not turn away from god and led a war againt Him. being that he is one of god's most powerful angels, lucifer volunteered to watch over those fallen souls who freely turned away from Him. these are the souls that god gave free will to and who chose to look away from the light. so, there are not really demons in the world, but rather dark entities who shun all that is god and light.

i'm not exactly a christian. you could say i'm a hodpodge kind of christian. if something doesn't feel or seem right to me, i won't believe it and find something else that makes more sense to me. i belive in god, angels, heaven and spirits but i don't belive in the devil, demons and hell. but being that hell is another subject, i won't go into that.

okie that's it for my religious talk. you are now free to hack it to miniscule bits. enjoy ^^

[Daeruke]

in my opinion good or bad depends on ppl's opinion. if wat we now say is good is bad in the view of others then. good=bad=evill=nice=bad:)

[Sandal Hat]

whoa! this got really religious since the last time i posted. so i will state my religious belief and let everyone hack it to shreds. o_O

i don't believe in fallen/evil angels. although the bible claims that lucifer is an evil/fallen angel, for some reason i can't see that. being that lucifer is a creation of god and a perfect being, how can he turn from god like that?

i believe that lucifer did not turn away from god and led a war againt Him. being that he is one of god's most powerful angels, lucifer volunteered to watch over those fallen souls who freely turned away from Him. these are the souls that god gave free will to and who chose to look away from the light. so, there are not really demons in the world, but rather dark entities who shun all that is god and light.

i'm not exactly a christian. you could say i'm a hodpodge kind of christian. if something doesn't feel or seem right to me, i won't believe it and find something else that makes more sense to me. i belive in god, angels, heaven and spirits but i don't belive in the devil, demons and hell. but being that hell is another subject, i won't go into that.

okie that's it for my religious talk. you are now free to hack it to miniscule bits. enjoy ^^Lucifer was perfect in all his ways until he sin started brewing in his heart because he got a big head.

On a side note, I am kinda hopdodge as well and if something deosn't sound right I try to figure it out on my own as well.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

The "possessing spirits" are actually the disembodied spawn of angels and humans known as Nepehlim. They were giants when living and would prey on normal people. God saw their evil and declared them an abomination. As a punishment they were torn from their coporeal existence and forced to wander for eternity looking for bodies of their own. Their fathers were another group of angels who disobeyed God after the Angel of Light's fall. This is in the book of Enoch, which sould be made registered as an official reading in my opinion.

[FascionViktem5k]

Edit: most of us believe in God?

for the time being i suppose we do... i guess we're now talking through a religious perspective...

[Genjoumoonfang]

ok pull out your king james version of the bible

2 peter 2:4

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell,and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement

Jude 1:4

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordainedto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying thr only Lord God, and our lord Jesus Christ

Revelation 12:3-4

And there appeared Another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,and did cast them to the earth:and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


no t to mention he rebelled against god in the beginnning and deceived a third of the hosts of heaven
and that third part are the devils angels or "the third part of the stars of heaven,and did cast them to the earth" so a third of the Spirits that god created are the angels of the devil.
and we have all been given choice since God spiritually created us. So the 1/3 chose satan and the 2/3 chose Christ and God

[FascionViktem5k]

yay! proof from the bible... which was written by man.. damnit! lol! j/k! but that's good... wow... you actually found the texts ... you my freind.. are cool

[Dark Fire]

ok pull out your king james version of the bible

2 peter 2:4

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell,and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement

Jude 1:4

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordainedto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying thr only Lord God, and our lord Jesus Christ

Revelation 12:3-4

And there appeared Another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,and did cast them to the earth:and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


no t to mention he rebelled against god in the beginnning and deceived a third of the hosts of heaven
and that third part are the devils angels or "the third part of the stars of heaven,and did cast them to the earth" so a third of the Spirits that god created are the angels of the devil.
and we have all been given choice since God spiritually created us. So the 1/3 chose satan and the 2/3 chose Christ and God


Revelation 12:3-4

And there appeared Another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,and did cast them to the earth:and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


that part of Revelations is all imagery
the Seven heads represent the seven Churches that existed in the time that Revelations was writen
The dragon has always represented the devil I don't know what the ten horns
or the seven crowns are but the woman is the Earth and the child is man

so if you put all the imagery togater it means:

in the endtimes the devil will have conquored the revived 7 churches and that ppl will be consumed in to the darkness as soon as they are borgn

so it really doesn't actually talk about angels

oh and in the end times the devil will have a human body

[Hits]

Yes, angels can be evil. This is from Christianity so your opinions might differ. Satan was a falling angel. He was originally the Cherub Angel Lucifer.

[Daeruke]

So lucifer is the cool dude n the guy with a beard is the geek
No offense to any1 just asking:)

[FascionViktem5k]

ok so it's settled.. there are evil angels.... now wat do we talk about?

[mayor mccheese]

I concur with "HitsugayaT". Satan would be a viable example of a evil angel. However some might say that he went from Angel to Demon. But lets not get into a argument over such things.

[Daeruke]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????

[FascionViktem5k]

and the thread goes dead.... liven it up somebody!

[Daeruke]

Wouldn't it be wierd if god, if he really did exist, was like a kid

[darkthief]

Read the manga "Lilim Kiss"
It's about a hot looking devil, Lilim, who likes to kiss people in order to suck out their energy.

Here is the link to have a start.
http://www.anime-source.com/banzai/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=192

http://www.anime-source.com/html/images/articles/lilimkiss1.jpg

[FascionViktem5k]

so i guess she's supposed to be the evil angel? sounds cool

[incognitoD]

she doesn't look evil to me just an angel with bat wings

[Ravenfdasfd]

Well there are neutral angels,the Angel of Death for instance who's neither good nor bad.
So there's gotta be an evil angel.
And let's not forget that Satan was actually the angel Lucifer before he tried a Coup D'état on God and was banished to hell.

[captain_soifon]

Read the manga "Lilim Kiss"
It's about a hot looking devil, Lilim, who likes to kiss people in order to suck out their energy.

Here is the link to have a start.
http://www.anime-source.com/banzai/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=192

http://www.anime-source.com/html/images/articles/lilimkiss1.jpg
thats anime though =[, gogo get a picture of lucifer

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

Look... 4 : MESSENGER, HARBINGER <angel of death>

Dude... if you need any vindication about evil angels existing.. watch Dogma...

That movie was hilarious!

[Jinchuu]

Angels are said to be creatures without free will, hence they can't be evil with choice unless God creates them as evil beings.
The only angel who had free will was Lucifer and he was banished from Heaven for not bowing to God's will.

[rabbit]

I thought that angels had free will until the rebellion with Lucifer and some of the angels that followed him, and that those that rebelled were cast out of heaven and became demons (fallen angels?). After that, God took away the remaining angels' free will. So now angels can't be evil by choice. Err.

[FascionViktem5k]

well i wouldn't know that because i haven't read the bible but it sounds good enough for me.... that darn Lucifer.. if it weren't for him then angel's would have free will! grr!!! lol!

[bbyxgurl]

i think evil angels can exist cuz when they became angels they might have been good but just turned evil or something

[aerikh]

hmm...if u guys watched "Constantine"...would u say d angel was evil?
or misguided?

[Bakuretsu]

well i think the existence of a evil angel is nearly impossible i mean God is the all knowing being of the universe dont you think he would know if there ever existed an evil angel and bannish him if he would not repent?

[HallowDude]

yes they exist, they are called fallen angels :biggthump

[Tyenkrovy]

The funniest thing about this debate is, in not even one place in Bible does it equate Lucifer with Satan - heck, it doesn't even actually state that the snake in the garden of Eden was Satan, people just assume that it was him. Also, the whole "seraphim" thing and the bajillion different angels for every different thing was an innovation of the Roman Catholic Church, something approaching, dare I say, Christian mysticism or (gasp!) mythology (the concept of which most of the Christians I've talked to find appalling, but I find quite amusing :p).

Now, if we're talking angels in a non-specifically Christian context, then I say it's certainly possible for an evil angel to exist, especially if said angel (or whatever equivalent being we're dealing with in whatever mythology/religion we're talking about) was given free will by its creator/creators, or if the angel was created by an evil/dark deity (though I would say that an angel-like being created by an evil/dark deity would most likely be a demon, not an angel).

Wouldn't it be wierd if god, if he really did exist, was like a kid
LOL, that sounds like John Constantine's comment about God being a kid with a magnifying glass and us being the ants, in the movie Constantine.

hmm...if u guys watched "Constantine"...would u say d angel was evil?
or misguided?
I wouldn't say Gabriel was "evil", per se. I think she - He? It was a female actress playing the part, but they called her "he". I dunno… Anyway, I think Gabriel was just nuts, bonkers, insane. And throw in a bit of a god complex to boot.

[I fail at life]

Well we have examples of all kinds of angels.
We have the good angel as in Gabriel.
We have the neutral angel as in The Angel of Death.
And we have the evil angel as in Lucifer.

You know, that would make a good basis for an anime/MMORPG :p.

[Alkarzar]

*Assuming Angels are real*

I dont think we should make the mistake of placing human traits onto what is simply another species at least.

Good and Evil depends one ones own perception , they might see us as ants ... Do you consider people who own ant farms Stan incarnate ?

But going by biblical terms then yes , during the war those who went with the original fall angel (Satan, The Devel, Luicfer, Whatever) where considered evil by our terms. Afterall they wanted to screw us over.

[Sottef]

nighthawksw is right.

Satan was one of god's angels that opposed his thought and was sent out of heaven.

This is a story to scare people to "not" think in any other way than your master (god or leader) for if you do, everyone will abandon you and throw you away. Loneliness is a state a participant of the human race can not survive, for we are creatures supposed to live in flock.

then satan got all these names.. Lucifer, Belsebub and all that shit you know of.

In fact. Do you call him an Evil lord?
Why souldn't we praise him for showing us that we alone can think and do not need to follow blindly if we do not like.
In todays society we are supposed to think for ourselves, aren't we?
Critisise and question?

Well, what do you think?

[Osxcar]

If anyone needs a good laugh, listen to the song Beelz by Stephen Lynch. It's about Satan but oh so funny. :P

[Rabid_Wolverine]

Lucifer actually translates to angel of light. He was a fallen angel who went against God so he was exiled and banned from ever entering heaven again. He's known the devil. So an evil angel can exist.....If you believe in them.

[Munky]

Sure evil angels exist. Fallen angels are evil angels anyway. Angels can still be decieved by the demons right? or maybe not..

[choking]

evil exists... they temp humans to do those crimal acts... hehehe

[Planeswalker]

I dont understand how they can be. I always thought that angels were mindless beings, practically slaves of the god, which is why humans were created, which would make it impossible for them to be evil unless it was the gods will.

[Shinji]

Yeah, sure. Why not? It's like does God exist? No one knows, so I assume that it's possible.

[Planeswalker]

Well if you put it that way then theres no real arguement. The answer is simply nobody knows then.

[SmallKid57]

if an angel is evil, it isn't an angel anymore. remember an angel is a servant of God, so... yea...

[ashuran]

well yeah if you believe the christian bible Satan is a evil angel and has his own army of evil arch angels and such so yup possible

[Aruko]

I believe it's possible to be an evil, or dark, angel. Most qualify them as demons but Lucifer, Satan, was an angel. He's a fallen ange.

[Icestorm]

you can classify demons as evil angels, generally the ones that joined lucifer when he fell.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

I think a more interesting question is can an angel be evil and still remain in God's service? What I mean is can a divine being harbor dark intentions and thoughts, but remain in Heaven by refusing to act on them. You're not condemned for thought. Well, with lust being the only exception. I wonder why Jesus would single that out of all things. He probably didn't understand male psychology.

[SolBeowulf19]

Yeah, evil angels exist. They can be fallen angels, demons(decendants of angels, i think), or, for example, whatever the Angels on Neon Genesis Evangelion are.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

Neon Genesis Evangelion is an anime. I don't see how it or the weird creatures albeit being called angels having anything to do with the subject matter. That show made no sense whatsoever and to bring it up in this topic is blasphemy. j/k.

[Planeswalker]

Yeah, evil angels exist. They can be fallen angels, demons(decendants of angels, i think), or, for example, whatever the Angels on Neon Genesis Evangelion are.

WRONG!!! COMPLETELY WRONG!!! I cant stand when ppl talk about Neon Genesis as if they understand it but clearly miss the main principles. In Neon Genesis humans are the evil ones and angels are acually the good guys. You must have noticed that humans are reffered to as the Lilliam or Lillian (not sure how to spell it). Well the Lilliam are children of the demon Lilith (who is portrayed as an angel). The angels are trying to rid the world of our plague.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

No, planeswalker, the angels nor the humans in Evangelion aren't evil. Like everything else in the show, they're just pointless. Oh yeah, don't forget stupid either. The entire show is an exercise in how to waste a lot of time and money. Trying to find hidden meaning in that show is like trying to receive a revelation by staring into a dirty toilet. Both are equally crappy endeavors. Unless, you're a cesspool technician.

[Planeswalker]

You sound like you have a biased opinion because you didnt like the show...anyway

The Angels were the first inhabitants of the earth. The true successors from the lost white moon. Humans, born from Lilith, came about and infested the Earth from the not so lost black moon (which is acually the Geofront). According to Evangelion we were the plague that invaded.

But enough of this we are getting off topic

[SolBeowulf19]

Okay, the entire Neon Genesis thing was just a stupid example i put in. i know it has nothing to do with the thread, but i don't agree with it being a waste of money. i'm a mech fan, so an anime like that, especially with so many theological references is actually kind of cool. It's the same reason I play Xenosaga.


But I still believe there are evil angels, we just don't call them angels anymore.

[Planeswalker]

^^ Demons is what we call em. So there cant acually be an evil angel since they are automatically branded demons.

[Caity_walsh]

angels are angels no such thing as bad ones ! even tho there is demons if u wanna think of them as evil angels ! but if you wanna prove me wrong and there is such thing as evil angels does that mean theres cleaning angels ?

[Planeswalker]

Ummm...cleaning angels? could u explain your point a bit more?

[Caity_walsh]

i ment if evil angels exsist does cleaning angels or dancing angels or romantic angels ? to me its all just describing angels

[Planeswalker]

0_o evil is not a job...

[Caity_walsh]

i never sed evil was a job i sed it was an emotion !

[Planeswalker]

It is not an emotion. You cant feel evil in the sense that you can feel emotions such as love, anger, sorrow ect...

[Caity_walsh]

evil is an emotion for me . and im an indervidual not a sheep ! i dont have to think that evil isnt an emotion and you cant make me think it !

[Planeswalker]

It isnt. Evil is an illusion. A word made up by man to explain bad things that happen in life.

Emotions are the words made up by man to express how we feel about ourselves and others

[Caity_walsh]

okay Evil is an illusion.but it can also be an emotion !

[Planeswalker]

No it cant. Evil can be how you label yourself but not what you are feeling

[Caity_walsh]

okay than the only evil angel is a demon ....

[Planeswalker]

^^ Which isnt an angel HURRAYZ XD FINALLY!!!!!!!!

[saycheese]

toss a coin

[Caity_walsh]

yer end of debate between us witch comes to conclusion there is no evil angel !

[blackmary]

already had, and the name's Lucifer! ;)

[Caity_walsh]

Lucifer ? whoes that ?

[Vlad]

Lucifer ? whoes that ?
The fallen angel.

[kumagoro_usagi]

Wasn't the devil an "evil" angel?

[SmallKid57]

well... once an angel turns evil, it isn't an angel anymore... its a demon... or w/e... but there can be an angel that turns evil for example satan (a.k.a. the devil)

[SolBeowulf19]

Exactly. We don't call it an angel anymore, but it still is one. In a way at least.

[moatism]

IMO there is no such thing as an evil angel...its referred to as a fallen angel, which doesn't neccesarily refer to it being "good" or "bad".

[SOL-Matsura]

IMO there is no such thing as an evil angel...its referred to as a fallen angel, which doesn't neccesarily refer to it being "good" or "bad".

An evil angel is probably about the same as a fallen angel. The Devil himself is a "fallen angel". And he's the king of evil, so I guess there can be an evil angel.

Same same.

[Urahara-sama]

Hmm, thats a tough one. First you would have to prove that angels exist, then that they can turn evil.

[Caity_walsh]

of course angels exist ! iv belived in them since i was very little. i guess if you belive - there is angels but if you dont belive than there isnt angels its just like santa clause ! the old story about st nick giving 2 the kids andgel wud had 2 do sumthin special 2 be abel 2 hav ppl belive in them !

[Planeswalker]

^^ That doesnt prove they exist. I mean just because I believe that Im the sexiest guy on the planet doesnt make it true (although in this case it is ^_^)

[Caity_walsh]

proving is beliving if you belive than prof wil come .... eventually !

[Planeswalker]

If proving is believing then shouldent the proof come first?

Another weird thing:
Lets say I live in the middle ages. I strongly believe that the earth is flat. Does my belief (and everyone elses) make that true?

[Caity_walsh]

ok ok uv proved ur point ! that there is no evil angel .

[Planeswalker]

^^ Exellent then I win XD

[Caity_walsh]

yes you win ! but i dunt c y evil angels hav the name demonds ? y is that ?

[Planeswalker]

Because by definition angels are the good guys. Servents of god and whatnot so they cant be evil.

[Caity_walsh]

rite .... but y does there hav 2 be evil ?

[Planeswalker]

Take that one up with God

[Caity_walsh]

lol ill try !

[_senbonzakura_]

how can you define good without existing of evil?
btw,evil is too comparative concept, dont you think?

[Vlad]

Because by definition angels are the good guys. Servents of god and whatnot so they cant be evil.
Almost but god rejected Satan (fallen angel) and he was servent of god at first. Servants are good (angels) and if they turning bad they not servants no more (fallen angel).

Also I agree with _senbonzakura_ with out evil there is no good, because no thing to compare too. Evil is a comparative concept.

[SmallKid57]

well... once an angel turns evil, its not an angel anymore.

[Dark Fire]

here is one if you had the choice what you be angel or demon?

I would be a demon because they don't pretend to be perfect and don't don't expect others to be eighter

[_senbonzakura_]

I would be a demon because they don't pretend to be perfect and don't don't expect others to be eighter
i think you are wrong, its absolutely opposite - demons are thinking that they ARE perfect and just dont care if others are or not....*smirk*

[LordoftheAbyss]

there are only 3 possibilities for a good and perfect being (angel), much more intelligent than any human, to rebel to an allmighty god.

- the god is not allmighty and that angel tries to take the heavenly throne for himself
- the god is not behaving as a good god, so even if it's a suicide war he wants to oppose that tyranny.
- the angel is ordered to "corrupt" himself in order to create a bipolarity in the world for the sake of human kind. it's a self sacrificing mission given by god himself.

[Alastor]

yes, because my parents call me angel! yet i do the devil's work! XD

[Planeswalker]

Almost but god rejected Satan (fallen angel) and he was servent of god at first. Servants are good (angels) and if they turning bad they not servants no more (fallen angel).
Also I agree with _senbonzakura_ with out evil there is no good, because no thing to compare too. Evil is a comparative concept.

Satan may have been an angel but what is he now? He is classified as a Demon I think

[captain_soifon]

king of demons

[Planeswalker]

The king would still be a demon though. While Im on this subject why do ppl call him the Prince fo darkness? doesnt prince imply that theres someone above him?

[Vlad]

The king would still be a demon though. While Im on this subject why do ppl call him the Prince fo darkness? doesnt prince imply that theres someone above him?
Lucefer-King and Satan-Prince.

[captain_soifon]

T_T, aint they the same person? or being?

[Sunfire249]

Well, if you look at it the christian or religious way, a fallen angel would technically be considered an evil angel. I'd rather stay away from that kind of thing though because really, evil and good are basically perceptions of the mind... An agreement with a vast majority of people.

[Planeswalker]

Lucefer-King and Satan-Prince.

what they are the same being arnt they?

[K.Ogawa]

i'll take sunfire's opinion. from a Christian's percpective, yes, there are evil angels... they're imps and demons now, but yeah, i guess you could say.

but as for the ruling fact, good and evil isn't a physical thing. it's pretty much the opinion of a person of what is good and bad. another question i think that's going nowhere cuz there's no real answer to it.

[hawkmun]

Lucifer/the devil was an angel.
I really dont think you can call "satan" a good angel.

That's what I thought. I've never really read the bible much, but I did read Memnoch the Devil by Anne Rice and it's heavy on the bible stories and her own rendition of the fall of Lucifer. So I THOUGHT Lucifer used to be an angle, but can you really revoke the status of angle? And if you can't, wouldn't that make Lucifer an evil angle?

[Vlad]

what they are the same being arnt they?
I am not shour. Lucefer is more a fallen-evil angel and Devel is a jing of hell or a suprim demon. Well,I think is like that.

[LordoftheAbyss]

I am not shour. Lucefer is more a fallen-evil angel and Devel is a jing of hell or a suprim demon. Well,I think is like that.


The prince of the demons is Belzebub, according to the Ghospel, and when Jesus refers to demons he refers to him, when he refers to Satan he talks about the very "simbol" of a corrupted world that's far from perfection.
Demons were generally the False Gods of the nearby contries religions, according to an ancient tradition all the demons were born out of the dead corpses of Giants.

Belzebub was the highest god of an enemy country of Israel, it's doubtfull that a being called Belzebub (baal'zebub) really exists, but it was considered the very Prince of all the demons due to this reason. Be it real or not, the origin of the Demons is not in discussion: they are different from Angels.




Satan is an angel, the "accusing angel", and his role is to test human's faith and loyality to God.
The best exaple is in the Book of Job (also called the "principle and ending of any Biblical filosophy"), Satan is used to hang around in the paradise and speak to God Himsef.

The loss of Satan means the victory of Jesus, the promise of a brand new world: perfect and eternal.

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
"7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. Rev. 12.10
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. - Book of Job, King James version.

"Lucifer" is a mistraslation and interpretation of Isaiah:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

The problem is that Lucifer is a LATIN word (bringer of light)... the very name of a star: VENUS, the fist morning star, and so it was translated "morning star" as "lucifer".

In the hebrew text there was nothing about a being called "Lucifer", but it's about a fallen Babylonian king, who had persecuted the Israelites.



Back on Topic: There are fallen angels in the hebrew tradition, the Book of Enoch tells us about angels coming down to Earth. These angels teached humans many things: metallurgy, cosmetics, weapon crafting, herbalism and enchants. Also they had offsprings with human females, the Nephilims or Giants, who are also mentioned in the Bible.
The Giants eventually went wild, fed upon Humans, destroyed the land and commited great sins, so Enoch cried to God for help and he sent his closest Angels to kill the Giants and punish the sinful angels.. they were chained in the very core of many planets untill the End of Time.

As u can see, there is nobody who would go so foolishly against an Allmighty God, even the Angels can be punished for their sins... but there is no "enemy" of God, only many enemies of Man.

[Vlad]

The prince of the demons is Belzebub, according to the Ghospel, and when Jesus refers to demons he refers to him, when he refers to Satan he talks about the very "simbol" of a corrupted world that's far from perfection.
Demons were generally the False Gods of the nearby contries religions, according to an ancient tradition all the demons were born out of the dead corpses of Giants.

Belzebub was the highest god of an enemy country of Israel, it's doubtfull that a being called Belzebub (baal'zebub) really exists, but it was considered the very Prince of all the demons due to this reason. Be it real or not, the origin of the Demons is not in discussion: they are different from Angels.




Satan is an angel, the "accusing angel", and his role is to test human's faith and loyality to God.
The best exaple is in the Book of Job (also called the "principle and ending of any Biblical filosophy"), Satan is used to hang around in the paradise and speak to God Himsef.

The loss of Satan means the victory of Jesus, the promise of a brand new world: perfect and eternal.

- Book of Job, King James version.

"Lucifer" is a mistraslation and interpretation of Isaiah:



The problem is that Lucifer is a LATIN word (bringer of light)... the very name of a star: VENUS, the fist morning star, and so it was translated "morning star" as "lucifer".

In the hebrew text there was nothing about a being called "Lucifer", but it's about a fallen Babylonian king, who had persecuted the Israelites.



Back on Topic: There are fallen angels in the hebrew tradition, the Book of Enoch tells us about angels coming down to Earth. These angels teached humans many things: metallurgy, cosmetics, weapon crafting, herbalism and enchants. Also they had offsprings with human females, the Nephilims or Giants, who are also mentioned in the Bible.
The Giants eventually went wild, fed upon Humans, destroyed the land and commited great sins, so Enoch cried to God for help and he sent his closest Angels to kill the Giants and punish the sinful angels.. they were chained in the very core of many planets untill the End of Time.

As u can see, there is nobody who would go so foolishly against an Allmighty God, even the Angels can be punished for their sins... but there is no "enemy" of God, only many enemies of Man.
Very intersting! Nicely done! I did not know alot of staff.

[boozy]

Go read "Paradise Lost" by John Milton, just the first book.

[Dark Fire]

king of demons

accually he is still an angel he was an archangle and so he retained his from when he fell from heaven

[MazdaRxEight]

arnt they just a corrupted angel?

[SolBeowulf19]

I suppose they would be. Not in Angelic forms anymore, but still angels on some level.

[Ichigo Soul Slayer]

Uh, well the devil was God's most trusted angel, and is evil now, so there you go.

[krumpage]

you should watch chrono crusade

[Machiavelli]

If we were to base it to the rationality of man's thinking, there really exist. For this issue of the existence of evil angels/fallen angels are but the measly product of human's mind.

[opticlink]

Of course there are evil angels. Satan was an angel before he was cast from heaven.

[Machiavelli]

Of course there are evil angels. Satan was an angel before he was cast from heaven.

Didn't read the last post didn't yah?

[Endess Wings]

yes!
But they are more devil thin angel!

[chipp zanuff]

There is no evil angel, there are only angels who just without sins and devils who hate human and guide them to the darkness, god created angels from the light and created devils from fire, That's all