The beginning

[Viva_ Shira]

Ok, so we all have different religions. But since im a christains, learning new religions in school everyday. So lot's of things come across my mind.

This question has no possible answer, but i thought we could just play around and chat about it.


We all know god, was the creator of us. Also he is the top dog in heaven, and always will be and have been. But when you think of it, there is a begining of everything right? So were did he come from? It doesn't say he created space. It says space was just a dark place, and everything had no form really, so he made it have form. "Basically" So something had to create the infinite place called "space" Space - Extra room, to store or w.e. So what the hell made that place, and what the hell made our GOD? If there is an answer what made him, or it who made GOD, and what made it!!! How did anything START??

[Dexd]

If there was no religion, there would be less war, and God wasn't made,and no one really knows, were like minions that serve god, and whorship him, because he's kind and generous for giving us life, and the good things we have, but thats just what i think, on my base of being Muslim, thats what we believe.

[Manchester Black]

Ok, so we all have different religions. But since im a christains, learning new religions in school everyday. So lot's of things come across my mind.

This question has no possible answer, but i thought we could just play around and chat about it.


We all know god, was the creator of us. Also he is the top dog in heaven, and always will be and have been. But when you think of it, there is a begining of everything right? So were did he come from? It doesn't say he created space. It says space was just a dark place, and everything had no form really, so he made it have form. "Basically" So something had to create the infinite place called "space" Space - Extra room, to store or w.e. So what the hell made that place, and what the hell made our GOD? If there is an answer what made him, or it who made GOD, and what made it!!! How did anything START??

You ask the questions that most non-religious people tend to ask. And religious people can never really provide a good answer, so you'll never get what you're looking for. The only logical explaination is....well I'm not going to start a religious debate here, but you know.

[TuRm0iL]

This is the reason that science fails. Science will never beat out religion in the fact that in a factual, logical world there must be a beginning to everything.
Religiously we must believe that there is something out there that is able to create anything at any time. We must believe something is so powerful it could manifest ITSELF out of sheer willpower. I dont rlly know how to explain where this willpower came from, but I've got a feeling that it is just an embodiment of the power of love, which is the only other thing that science cant seem to comprehend.

[Viva_ Shira]

I did, some serious research in my moms, bible on wensday..lol, an unanswered question.
My bro and sis are like, what if we die and ask god the question and he some how explains it? To me, and us, it would seem that to hear this answer would be impossible, and very scared to believe it. LIKE WTH?

[Donut]

Lol, Christians!

Answer me this, how come there are different religions in different parts of the world? Surely an almighty God should have been able to spread his teachings across the globe, don't you think?

This is just one of many, many failures of religion.

[Rayster]

Cut down on the one liners people.

I did, some serious research in my moms, bible on wensday..lol, an unanswered question.
That's strange.

Anyway, an answer to your question:
If there is an answer what made him, or it who made GOD, and what made it!
In most religions it's maintained that: God created himself. His power is so infinite that He can create himself.

Try rolling that over in your mind. Quite ridiculous for us humans no?

Anyway, that's the general consensus for this question.


Answer me this, how come there are different religions in different parts of the world? Surely an almighty God should have been able to spread his teachings across the globe, don't you think?
No. That's ridiculous. God isn't supposed to be something physical in our existence like that table or the chair, it's something we cannot commune with.

Isn't it completely the opposite, that something we cannot commune with, is believed in so MANY places that faith seems to prevail universally?

This isn't my view btw. It just logically follows about faith.

This is just one of many, many failures of religion.
I agree.



And this thread borders closely to the "Does God exist" thread and some others.
Don't be surprised to see it locked shortly if it follows on that tangent or if spam continues.

/moved to Informal Debates for now

[Ymir'sEmbrace]

In the end, there are many things in our world which are still unexplainable. Science helps to fill in the gaps in our reasoning, but over-all we're still quite infantile in our understanding of existence.

If, as science proposes, we are merely a cosmic accident then what are the almost indescribable odds of life existing, and for that matter what entails thought processes and emotions, something which humanity has yet to artifically replicate.

On the other side of the spectrum; how does one account for the multiple religions around the globe? Some believe their religion is purely correct, and that belief in others is immoral, even to the point of over-looking the obvious flaws in their own religion's logic.

I'm not trying to push anything on anyone, and I'm not debating the existence of a higher being, entity, or unified thought; but I feel that over time the true origins of religion, rather false or true, have been lost in it's countless translations and the imperfect nature of humanity.

So in answer to your question in a long round-about way Naoto; we can only have faith that there is something out there that, as Decado said, is so immeasureably powerful that we can't even begin to comprehend or dissect it. To try to do so would only be to invite insanity.

[Chi]

I addressed something similar in the Does god exist thread this is what i said

In my opinion God is a man made entity. It is supernatural and it is my opinion that the supernatural was created to explain natural things that couldn't be understood by our primitive ancestors. Like all things it is difficult to defy generations of programing and and cultural influence so even the most logical and profound scientific mind still cling to their faith as a means of being part of a community. The ignorance of the nature of things brought about the creation of God and gods then the knowledge of the nature of things and how they work should in turn destroy them. You would have to be willing to see THE TRUTH not what you accept to be true.

I think religion as a whole in modern day society should be more of a guideline on how to live morally and respectively and not to be interpreted so literally.

I will continue by saying this as a follow up, If you look at any religion's creation story you will find them all to be oddly familiar. So it is very possible that the same message was given at the beginning but looks so entirely different now because of our processing abilities vary from region to region. Somethings said in english cannot be properly translated through cultures and through millenias. We experience things differently and seek understanding of those experience in different ways so to communicate something we have so little knowledge about finds that alot of things are lost in translation.

As a matter of fact if you ever watch the show on history called "decoding the bible" scholars talked about how the Hebrew creation myth was founded off the Babylonians and Hindu creation myth that were similar to Egyptian creation myths. We call them myths now but someday our beliefs too will be called myths and be dismissed as being preposterous. Any in which case In those creation myths the only thing changed were that the major God(s) of one culture were pitted to be in fact the antagonist in another. Such as the snake tempted Adam but in Babylon it played the role of merciful loving god, giving to the human beings. That's all i am going to say on this matter for now think it over.

[xxBluebird]

God created the universe, and we created God.

Either that, or God created him-, her-, or it -self because he/she/it was just so damn powerful. If you don't believe in a god or gods, I guess you could also say that the universe was a bit of an accident - maybe we're just some random kid's science experiment gone wrong, and we're the bacteria that's growing off it.

Maybe there wasn't actually a beginning to the universe. Instead, when the universe itself appeared, so did the concept of time. So if time, before the universe appeared, didn't exist then you could say that there was no time before the universe, so basically the universe has just always been here, if you're going by the concept of time. Hopefully that will make some kind of sense to you...?

And if you wanted to, you could put a little religious spin to it. Replace the word 'universe' with 'God[s]', and you've basically got the idea that time only started when God created it. Therefore if there was no such thing as time before God was created/God created time, then there wouldn't be any length of time that occurred before God's existence. If you want to say that God created literally everything, that is.

[toxxin]

We are told that God was always there, and we are to assume that the human mind cannot fathom this fact. To make life easier, I just picture the human lifeline as a straight line, with a beginning and an end. Also, I picture God's lifeline as a circle, with no beginning and no end, just infinte.

...this doesn't explain anything, its just what goes on in my head :P

[-ONE-]

Maybe we started from the BIG BANG. I'm not saying i really truly believe this but if it happened then GOD was obviously a huge part of it. If you don't know about the big bang then Google it. It may appear as true blasphemy but there is logic in there too.

[Chi]

You can't deny something that happend just because its inconvenient to you. The big bang happend!! There's proof of it all over the known universe, to deny that that happend is like saying the holocaust didn't happen despite the bodies found and the video footage taken. Human being brought about the existence of god so we could have a way to explain the natural world. So we could have a parent like figure to which we can go to, just like we had when we were kids. Everything in the bible is a metaphor for how we should act and live our lives. When we die chances are... we die and we return to ash and base materials from which we came.

[-ONE-]

You can't deny something that happend just because its inconvenient to you. The big bang happend!! There's proof of it all over the known universe, to deny that that happend is like saying the holocaust didn't happen despite the bodies found and the video footage taken. Human being brought about the existence of god so we could have a way to explain the natural world. So we could have a parent like figure to which we can go to, just like we had when we were kids. Everything in the bible is a metaphor for how we should act and live our lives. When we die chances are... we die and we return to ash and base materials from which we came.

First of all its not "PROOF" its evidence, you see the evidence a different way i do. You shouldn't just say that its the truth and believe it with your life. Its not smart to base your life on something thats has been bashed hundreds of times. I'm guessing you really haven't looked at the big bang in awhile. Saying that the BIG BANG started from nothingness. The law of conservation of mass stated that matter can neither be created nor destroyed (there's one) and the big bang says that the ball of nothingness spun at an infinite speed and was infinitely hot. then the tiny ball exploded and the planets flew off in different directions. but then again if there is n gravity at all (nothingness) then all the planets would fly off in the same direction. but then why do 2 planets spin backwards? (there's 2) i could go on and on. But that woudn't matter to you.

[Chi]

You seem to assume a lot about what i know and don't know don't you??? Well let me inform you about what i do know.

Proof - evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
Evidence - that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.

From this alone i don't need to even bother with your feeble retort at attacking my character. But for the sake of argument allow me to continue shall we?

The big bang was a tiny ball as you so ineloquently put it was a giant ball that contained all the matter in energy that would eventually become the universe
Your reach of understanding into the scientific community is the one that should thoroughly come into question as it has been proven that there are places in this universe where dark energy is being created as is dark matter. It's properties seem to repel regular energy an regular matter. Thus keeping all of the matter and gravitational forces of the universe from collapsing in on itself and thus we have an ever expanding universe which will consequently lead to all burning energy in masses to die off and we have a frozen universe that contains nothing but remnants of dead stars and planets.
I don't believe anything with my life, that would be the hallmark of a moron, even as much as is known about this world and the universe that it resides in changes daily. A few milienia ago believing in one god was almost stupid. Before that we worshiped god knows how many? and their religious stories of the time we now call myths.
So to one day shall our religious scriptures and beliefs be called myths.To claim to know anything about what i hold dear is insulting, seeing as to i neither believe nor disbelieve in anything. Don't think you kow me just because in forum i say this while in another i can argue the existence of god. Better yet stay away from attacking my character because i assure you thats not something you can win at seeing as i adapt as i see fit, i may argue pro or con as i see fit to any and every argument because i am not so ignorant as to claim absolutes in anything.

Oh have a nice day.

[-ONE-]

i didn't say that i was "assuming" anything of you. although i wish you would have read the book about the big bang before you actually said you believed it, and that it happened. Because if you would've read the book you may have known that the ball was supposedly smaller then the period at the end of this sentence. Also that the big bang happened 6 billion years ago. But no I'm sorry thats just more then impossible. Everything is running down on earth. not getting better. the world would've been crumble. And the acceleration of humans would make 500+ people every square inch. If. the Big Bang was true.
i don't really wanna waste my time typing. so I'm just going to give this for you to watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNVu24bHBpU
btw... I'm going to have a nice day.

[Habanero]

i wish you would have read the book about the big bang before you actually said you believed it, and that it happened.

I'm pretty interested to hear exactly what book are you referring to? Since pretty much everything you've stated about the universe is simply not true.

Background radiation is a strong evidence supporting the Big Bang theory. Nowhere is it stated that it started from nothingness. Just that with our current models we can track down the history of the universe only to a certain point, which is somewhere around 10^-30 seconds.

When the supposed "bang" happened, the whole materia of the universe started spreading. Stars and planets developed after millions of years after that since the materia was too dense and hot for anything to become solid at that point.

Planets in general tend to rotate to the same direction their star does. That is because the whole solar system was developed from a gigantic gascloud, which collapsed due to its own mass and gravity creating the sun and everything around it. Planets that rotate to "the wrong direction" have either suffered from series of huge impacts turning its momentum around, or originate from outside our solar system and have been caught by our sun's gravity.

Latest research shows that the Big Bang happened 13,7 billion years ago. Not 6Gyrs.

Everything running down on earth is because of the curiosity and greed of the human race. It has nothing to do with the Big Bang. I don't understand what "acceleration of humans" means.

The video you posted would be first class comedy, if it wasn't for the fact that shitloads of people actually believe that crap. That makes it just plain scary.

[Viva_ Shira]

OMG, man this answered so many things, believe in scientist and earth being formed for such a long time, i did start not believing in god nor a after life. Man this one man has answered any of my questions. There is no doubt god is alive and is watching!

Thanks ONE +rep 1010200050320595329!

Lol, this guy who posted before me says. "We" when did he build a machine, and do all this? I don't recall anything, you people are trying to fight against grown folks, and your just kids like me who have heard something and believe in it. Your theories is something you've heard, and you have no proof, cause any proof you have isn't yours. It's what others believes, and i hate people just believe they have been created by a giant star that exploded, i always doubted that....anyways we all have our beliefs. You have yours and i have mines, when we die we'll see who is right!


Also what you have said it just plain dumb as hell, have you seen this giant dust cloud? NO, have you've seen space at all? NO, did you make a machine to try and study this ?NO, did you say something that you read in a book and heard from man? Yes. It's just that i know something created us, and for humans to sit there, and say a MTF star blue the **** up, and started to create everything so ****ing slow in BILLIONS OF ****ING YEARS, HOW THE **** CAN YOU PROVE THAT? WHEN SCIENTIST CAN'T EVEN PROVE WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON THROUGH THE WHOLE EARTH LIFE CYCLE. BUT THEY CAN PROVE HOW IT WAS CREATED? BUT THEY CAN'T TELL ME WHAT WAS ON THIS PLANET DURING THE IN THE FIRST EVOLUTION IN THE EARTH"S PERIOD. Scientist deserve the worst, even tho im not suppose to wish harm on others. But to defy your own creator as if you were just a thing that kept on developing, until a magical meteor hit the planet, which it didn't hit the whole planet..and killed all the dinoasaurs, then some stupid continet started to seperate.

[TuRm0iL]

I'm pretty interested to hear exactly what book are you referring to? Since pretty much everything you've stated about the universe is simply not true.

Background radiation is a strong evidence supporting the Big Bang theory. Nowhere is it stated that it started from nothingness. Just that with our current models we can track down the history of the universe only to a certain point, which is somewhere around 10^-30 seconds.

When the supposed "bang" happened, the whole materia of the universe started spreading. Stars and planets developed after millions of years after that since the materia was too dense and hot for anything to become solid at that point.

Planets in general tend to rotate to the same direction their star does. That is because the whole solar system was developed from a gigantic gascloud, which collapsed due to its own mass and gravity creating the sun and everything around it. Planets that rotate to "the wrong direction" have either suffered from series of huge impacts turning its momentum around, or originate from outside our solar system and have been caught by our sun's gravity.

Latest research shows that the Big Bang happened 13,7 billion years ago. Not 6Gyrs.

Everything running down on earth is because of the curiosity and greed of the human race. It has nothing to do with the Big Bang. I don't understand what "acceleration of humans" means.

The video you posted would be first class comedy, if it wasn't for the fact that shitloads of people actually believe that crap. That makes it just plain scary.


I'm sorry, but where are you getting your information from?
I'm sad to hear someone promoting something as unprovable as the big bang, no honestly, it saddens me. Especially the fact that one can use such scientific "evidence" to try to prove something literally unprovable. Who are you, or anyone else, to say exactly what happened? How could this supposed "big bang" come to be? Things cannot happen without some sort of provocation, and I'm sorry, but matter does not just start appearing in some sort of giant explosion and create stars and planets.
As for your point about background radiation, I can make a just as believable assumption that aliens had some sort of nuclear war, creating all radiation in the universe.
And it's equally believable that star/planet spins are similar because the stars gravity affects the planets in such a way.
So let anyone believe whatever they want. Point of the fact is that we can estimate and calculate all we want and never know whether we've hit on something remotely true. We can never prove the beginning of the universe, as the fact of there being a beginning resides outside of human logic capacities.

[MannyF5]

You can't deny something that happend just because its inconvenient to you. The big bang happend!! There's proof of it all over the known universe, to deny that that happend is like saying the holocaust didn't happen despite the bodies found and the video footage taken. Human being brought about the existence of god so we could have a way to explain the natural world. So we could have a parent like figure to which we can go to, just like we had when we were kids. Everything in the bible is a metaphor for how we should act and live our lives. When we die chances are... we die and we return to ash and base materials from which we came.

Note: Please dissregard anything pretaining to 'you' or 'you stated' since I originally quoted the wrong person.

I'm not necessarily saying I 100% believe in God, but it logically makes just as much sense than the Big Bang Theory does.

For the planet earth to have been created with the prefect equilibrium for humans to live on is slim-to-none. You look at any other planets in our solar system and think, how utterly far they are from livable conditions for anything.

You have to consider the factors like:
- we have the Perfect amount of water and resources on earth
- we have are the Perfect distance from the sun which gives us good temperature
- we have the Perfect ozone and atmosphere on earth to allow us to breathe

You state the law of the conservation of mass, it perfectly disproves how life was created. Where did this mystical ball of energy come from, with the "nothingness" of space, energy wouldn't be created. External forces would be needed, and with no mass there is no gravity so nothing would be moving, and there would be no external forces because nothing exists yet.

Also take one of Newton's Laws into account:

Newton's 3rd Law - For every action there is an equal or opposite reaction. Well with this action and great force created what equal or opposite force occurred. The universe was created so that was the action...could you tell me what the reaction was to cope with Newton's 3rd Law?

Also, the Big Bang Theory has been destroyed so many times. The experiment that was held for a large part of the evidence of the big bang theory was disproved. I can't remember the name of the experiment or the person that conducted it but if you 'Googled' it I'm sure you could find out.

May I also add that humans were said to evolve from single celled life forms which would require major evolution and adaptation which has never occurred in life as we know it. The only sign of evolution and adaptation that has been shows was minor. Like certain birds of the same species has different features to adapt to their surroundings. For something this major to occur it would be an extraordinary breakthrough in science which isn't bound to ever happen.

Also, you stated that this ball spun at an "infinite speed" and was "infinitely hot". That would defy logic as we know it because nothing can reach infinity, calculus and its topic of limits can prove that. Something cant get as close as it can to infinity but you can never reach it. For example: You are 3 feet from a wall, move halfway to the wall. Now move half way to the wall, again....again. With this logic you can never reach infinity, you can approach but never reach it.

Might I add again, that the earth's timeline due to the rate of erosion from rivers etc. states that the earth is 6 Billion years old (correct me if im wrong). Yet the Big Bang Theory stated that the earth is only 2 Million years old. (I may have switched the year values up but you get my point)

So, coming to my conclusion is that both theories of creation have many flaws, and none should be said to be correct nor incorrect. You can have faith and beleive in what you believe in whether it be either theory.

[toxxin]

i may argue pro or con as i see fit to any and every argument because i am not so ignorant as to claim absolutes in anything.


the big bang happened!!!


Yup, you sure are genuine..


The video you posted would be first class comedy, if it wasn't for the fact that shitloads of people actually believe that crap. That makes it just plain scary.

Actually, whats scary is a wide range of people blindly believing in something that hasn't been proven, and ragging on other people about it. There may be some evidence that supports the big bang theory, but the fact of the matter is that the Big Bang is ONLY a theory, and has not be accepted as fact due to lack of proof.

Normally I wouldn't comment on such useless arguments as this, but when there are people out there calling down such users as ONE and belittling his posts on a subject that can't even be proven I can't not reply.

[E-Zibit]

The truth is (as Manny and everyone else has stated) that the idea of thinking of the beginning is something so hard to fathom that our minds cant fully wrap around the subject.
I personaly disprove of the Big Bang as it is lacking in content and is highly contradictory with todays science.
I beleive in a God that has created Earth (not quite sure how) but it is the best answer and the safest.

[MannyF5]

The truth is (as Manny and everyone else has stated) that the idea of thinking of the beginning is something so hard to fathom that our minds cant fully wrap around the subject.
I personaly disprove of the Big Bang as it is lacking in content and is highly contradictory with todays science.
I beleive in a God that has created Earth (not quite sure how) but it is the best answer and the safest.

Well if you mean that something becoming 'infinite' happening then yeah. But then you think, where did this all powerful god come from, he had to be created too and nobody can prove the Bible correct. There is faith involved in both theories.

[E-Zibit]

Well if you mean that something becoming 'infinite' happening then yeah. But then you think, where did this all powerful god come from, he had to be created too and nobody can prove the Bible correct. There is faith involved in both theories.

Yes it is true, but the point is, is that it seems more likely that a higher being (God) exists because of how good we have it and how something like this is created so perfectly for humans to live on.

[Chi]

Guys do me a huge favor... i've washed my hands of this thread as it is completely full of people who do not understand the very meaning of the words they use. So don't try to call me out because i will not be nice about it. And if you think yourself a true christian what does it matter what other people believe? Like i said, after seeing that video the intelligent thing for me to do is to not participate in this thread so leave me out of it.

[Viva_ Shira]

Yup, you sure are genuine..



Actually, whats scary is a wide range of people blindly believing in something that hasn't been proven, and ragging on other people about it. There may be some evidence that supports the big bang theory, but the fact of the matter is that the Big Bang is ONLY a theory, and has not be accepted as fact due to lack of proof.

Normally I wouldn't comment on such useless arguments as this, but when there are people out there calling down such users as ONE and belittling his posts on a subject that can't even be proven I can't not reply.

OMG FINALLY, the guy chi tried to pm me, saying you really don't believe this?
He said he was Science Major..doesn't seem like it at all, cause he couldn't prove anything at all.


I still doubt the Big bang..cause there's no proof. There is proof of god! We breathe, feel, or just exist don't we..heheh >.>


As for Chi, why even post here? If your gonna say you have nothing to do with this? You should've just kept to yourself. But your voicing an oppinion oh well.

[Artemis]

Traditional Christian Answer:

God came from a place outside a natural time loop. Meaning that there was no such time before God, because there is no such thing as time in the dimension of God. Therefore, God cannot have a 'before God' or 'after God' due to the fact that God is outside time and that there is no other 'time' than the present time and the time that he has always been.

Simple Answer:

Shit happened. Shit happens. Shit will happen.
:)

[Habanero]

Lol, this guy who posted before me says. "We" when did he build a machine, and do all this?

I guess humankind as a term doesn't ring any bell to you...?

you people are trying to fight against grown folks, and your just kids like me who have heard something and believe in it. Your theories is something you've heard, and you have no proof, cause any proof you have isn't yours. It's what others believes

Well, you obviously are a kid. That doesn't necessarily make everyone else on this board a kid. I'm a third year physics student majoring in astronomy, and it pisses me off when people twist scientific results to support their own false arguments. Hence I felt obliged to reply.

Science isn't about believing. It's about making rational conclusions based on facts that we do know for certain. And trust me, I've been studying and examining my share of the facts concerning the universe. I don't know why I even bother to try to explain something to you people, but let's give it a go this one more time.

and i hate people just believe they have been created by a giant star that exploded, i always doubted that...

FYI, exploding stars rip solar systems apart. I don't think anyone's ever claimed that they created life...?

Also what you have said it just plain dumb as hell, have you seen this giant dust cloud? NO, have you've seen space at all? NO, did you make a machine to try and study this ?NO, did you say something that you read in a book and heard from man?

I've seen plenty of these giant gas clouds. I've seen my fair share of space too. The particular machine I didn't make, but studied the results yes. Results of any study are usually gathered in a book, that's how you spread the information... :whatevah:

Your posts show that you lack even the most basic info concerning the matter at hand, so I won't bother replying to the rest of your post. Do yourself a favor and read some wikipedia. While it isn't necessarily the most credible source of information, it certainly gives you a decent understanding on many things.

I'm sorry, but where are you getting your information from?
I'm sad to hear someone promoting something as unprovable as the big bang, no honestly, it saddens me. Especially the fact that one can use such scientific "evidence" to try to prove something literally unprovable. Who are you, or anyone else, to say exactly what happened? How could this supposed "big bang" come to be? Things cannot happen without some sort of provocation, and I'm sorry, but matter does not just start appearing in some sort of giant explosion and create stars and planets.

As I said earlier, I go through a lot of information concerning everything that goes around in space. As you probably didn't notice, I mentioned that "the Big Bang" is just a theory. No one knows what happened in the very starting point of the universe (before some 10^-30 seconds), since our laws of physics do not apply at that short timespan.

BUT, everything in space supports the claim that space started out from a singularity. The matter didn't suddenly appear out of nowhere, it was there already from the point on we actually do know something about it. Galaxies, stars and planets are a direct consequence of the vast amounts of materia space includes.

If you're talking about god by saying "proving the unprovable", I didn't say anything about god did I?

As for your point about background radiation, I can make a just as believable assumption that aliens had some sort of nuclear war, creating all radiation in the universe.

I don't think you can really. Here's the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation) article on the subject in case you're interested.


And it's equally believable that star/planet spins are similar because the stars gravity affects the planets in such a way.

Gravity affects every object the same way. The point was that two of the planets in our solar system rotate to other direction than the rest.

So let anyone believe whatever they want. Point of the fact is that we can estimate and calculate all we want and never know whether we've hit on something remotely true.

They can believe all the mumbo jumbo in the world for all I care. They were giving out some false information, which I corrected. Science gets more accurate every day and theories are proven to be correct more and more frequently. You should never say never.

We can never prove the beginning of the universe, as the fact of there being a beginning resides outside of human logic capacities.

That's what religion wants to teach to you. How many times have they been right about anything during the short history of mankind?

For the planet earth to have been created with the prefect equilibrium for humans to live on is slim-to-none. You look at any other planets in our solar system and think, how utterly far they are from livable conditions for anything.

You have to consider the factors like:
- we have the Perfect amount of water and resources on earth
- we have are the Perfect distance from the sun which gives us good temperature
- we have the Perfect ozone and atmosphere on earth to allow us to breathe

That is not right either actually. The earth could well be a few dozen million kilometres closer or 50 million kilometres further from the sun and still have perfectly good conditions for life. The only difference between earth and mars for example, is that the earth is bigger. If mars was bigger, it most certainly would also have life. Mars' mass is too small for it to conserve its atmosphere very well.

And water... It all has come from the outer parts of the solar system, from Cuiper belt beyond Pluto's orbit. It's hardly a coincidence that the closer we get to the sun, the heavier the elements are that the surrounding planets consist of. Near planets consist mainly of iron and silicate rocks, gasplanets come after that. Gasses are getting lighter going outwards from the sun. Cuiper belt consists mainly of different kind of light gasses that are frozen solid. In other words, it contains immeasurable amounts of ice.

Actually, whats scary is a wide range of people blindly believing in something that hasn't been proven, and ragging on other people about it. There may be some evidence that supports the big bang theory, but the fact of the matter is that the Big Bang is ONLY a theory, and has not be accepted as fact due to lack of proof.

I'd associate blind believing with religions rather than science. Big Bang isn't *a* theory, there are several variations of it due to the fact that we don't know everything. Yet. Pretty much everything we observe in the universe supports the current theories though, so it is very strong theory at least.

Normally I wouldn't comment on such useless arguments as this, but when there are people out there calling down such users as ONE and belittling his posts on a subject that can't even be proven I can't not reply.

I was correcting the false information he was giving out. Oh, and I wasn't belittling the poster as much as the phenomena the video he posted represents. ID'ers/Creationists haven't given a single sensible argument EVER. Can't blame the commoners for believing that stuff though, since average Joe isn't really interested enough to find out if these "preachers' " statements carry any real value and they present their ideas in a semi-scientific way. It seems that these movements are trying to plunge humankind back into the dark-age, and them succeeding in getting hordes of followers by twisting facts is what sounds plain scary.

*Edit:Well, it did sound kinda mean anyway. Sorry about that -ONE-.

[Mugen]

@Naoto Shira: wow...you're asking a question that really can't be answered whole heartedly by any of us. Well My view on it is that yes indeed the big bang did happen and that's what formed all of the planets and such but how life forms were created is beyond me. How bacteria and single-cell life forms were created in a world that was nothing-ness before is beyond any of us to understand but whatever. If there really is a "heaven" out there then I'll ask god when the time comes.

[bludd]

Man Man man, there is no proof of the big bang?
http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/The%20Big%20Bang%20Theory.htm
Ok you can and have the right to believe what you want, but I can't accept that we came from no where, and yes I believe in god, but my god is different from yours. I believe started the big bang and sat down and begin watching. And is still just watching, never ever participated in any human activity. i believe we are an experiment god is using so he can note what happens. And improve the next time he makes a universe. Ok my theory may sound crazy to you, but really don't insult it because I insulted no religion (purposely) in my statement.

[Viva_ Shira]

Traditional Christian Answer:

God came from a place outside a natural time loop. Meaning that there was no such time before God, because there is no such thing as time in the dimension of God. Therefore, God cannot have a 'before God' or 'after God' due to the fact that God is outside time and that there is no other 'time' than the present time and the time that he has always been.

Simple Answer:

Shit happened. Shit happens. Shit will happen.
:)
This time loop you said? I don't recal this in the bible, i recall your scientific crap. It sad God was the beginning and the end. As in he was created by everything around him. There is no bullshit in the bible saying, he came from a time loop. when he was the first thing in the whole world..so how could he come from a time loop?

As for the other guy who thinks he's a grown man, cause he's probally 20 something years old. Get 50 and talk to me ok? Then you'll actually experience life.

Can a mod or admin close this thread? This thing is boring. I didn't ask for if anyone believed god was real. I said how in the hell was there a beginning as in life mas no since. Even this pathetic science nonsense. I study Astronomy so yea. I was gonna major, but i said **** it. On to art~!

[VampyreLord]

Sorry, mods don't follow random orders, like requests to close threads because the topic is "boring". Frankly I find your Bible bashing boring, but hey, I haven't banned you yet...

[young_saiyan]

Okay people. calm down. The last thing we need is this to become a flame topic and have people bashing each other and their religions. I believe we have enough of that in the media.

If there was no religion, there would be less war, and God wasn't made,and no one really knows, were like minions that serve god, and whorship him, because he's kind and generous for giving us life, and the good things we have, but thats just what i think, on my base of being Muslim, thats what we believe.

Anyway, as Dexd says above, we as Muslims believe that God created space and everything. Like, everything, everything. We try not to question these things that Science would usually make us think, because in the end it only makes us confused more. Some might say that questioning things will lead to having a better knowledge of understanding things, but it would also restrict our freedom and options of choice. For instance, if your asked to sacrifice an animal, and you go ahead and ask: Which animal, what colour does it have to be, male or female? And so on, why not just grabbed an animal and sacrifice it?

Either way, by asking who created the beginning, and then receiving and answer, you'd only begin to ask, who created [insertanswerhere]. In the end, God created everything, it's good to ask questions but make sure their productive, and please don't bash other people for their opinions or views. =)

[VampyreLord]

Naoto and bludd are both warned for flaming.

Do it again and I will ban you both to kingdom come.

[sylvosdono]

wheeew *dries off sweat from concentration* when you kids argue you kids do it til the big words become common diction.

hehe, props to habanero for providing strong scientific translations for the less educated... its been a while since ive been able to understand the specifics of matter formation prior to our race's development.

here's my two cents, yeah you'll be a short few from getting a coke sorry:

1. As far as i can tell, the christian faith is based upon the salvation of man. removing the stresses of seeking what is seemingly impossible to find is one way to create ease upon one's mind. Thus die-hards will just say that He is responsible *closes door and grabs a soda*. Believing in someone to thank for your graces isnt wrong, but saying that the one who fed you is the ultimate is no different than the soldiers who lay waste to innocent corpses in the name of "justice"... You're just offering your being because of the fortune that was bestowed upon you, rather than reasoning with others you've chosen the path of hostility; poor representation of a faith that revolves around peace wouldnt you say?

2. Experience isnt measure only by time, you assume that the longer someone has been around means the more they have seen... Sadly so many lives cap at 20 because they dont venture off into other reaches of our world and learn the different cultures first hand. Saying that someone has to be a certain age for you to acknowledge their credibility is an excuse for your ignorance, if you've matured any since your days as a youth then you should b able to reason the cons of neglecting advice due to your lack of consideration.

3. The beginning is such an interest term. It means the first. It means the start. It means that before it there was nothing. The funny thing is in retrospect, humans are nothing compared to the vastness of the cosmos. Just as people can brush off pocket lint with a single glance, the universe could care less for us. To believe in a divine creator is to admit to his power over us, to admit to his power results in our complete loyalty to him, to be completely loyal to anything is simply disregarding everything that doesn't involve him: so many have done so, i sincerely doubt that everyone who has doubted God has met an untimely demise so he can pass his dire judgment.

4. Everything we can examine moves in cycles... Who are we to believe that the cosmos is any different. The Big Bang theory can only be fathomed based upon what has been found, if they keep finding more then the "beginning" will continue to pushed along. This plane of existence has always been here, its just we are now trying to date it and completely understand: inquisition is a human trait after all. Its simple to say that it just started, but the answer to how it began will never be resolved, for the simple possibility that nothing really began; just realized.

I don't know much, but i can most definitely say this:

Creation is the birth of reasoning, for one can't exist without the other. We cannot deem that our existence is for a common goal for character paves the road we walk. Unfortunately too many are too quick to push their beliefs onto another's path, too arrogant to watch another's road meet its end. Never bear your cross too high for the shadow that looms from your devotion suffocates the smiles of those who chose another way. If you're a believer than relate as much as you can before carrying off on your way with a smile and hopeful heart that they'll find a peaceful end...

[-ONE-]

I've seen plenty of these giant gas clouds. I've seen my fair share of space too. The particular machine I didn't make, but studied the results yes. Results of any study are usually gathered in a book, that's how you spread the information...
You do know that almost all scientific books are wrong in some way. and have to be changed after about 10 years...

[Habanero]

I'd use the word "lack" rather than "wrong". That's the direct consequence of science getting more accurate every day. Methods and technology improves all the time, so we get more specific information about pretty much everything.

What's your point anyway? You do know that this is the "debates" -section?

[madam.elsie]

Ok, so we all have different religions. But since im a christains, learning new religions in school everyday. So lot's of things come across my mind.

This question has no possible answer, but i thought we could just play around and chat about it.


We all know god, was the creator of us. Also he is the top dog in heaven, and always will be and have been. But when you think of it, there is a begining of everything right? So were did he come from? It doesn't say he created space. It says space was just a dark place, and everything had no form really, so he made it have form. "Basically" So something had to create the infinite place called "space" Space - Extra room, to store or w.e. So what the hell made that place, and what the hell made our GOD? If there is an answer what made him, or it who made GOD, and what made it!!! How did anything START??

Well, you ask the equivalent of the old "which came first: the chicken or the egg?" question. Christians would say the chicken came first because God created all of the animals and placed them on the earth. A non-believer might say that the egg came first but only after evolving from microscopic organisms over millions of years. There, of course, is no right or wrong answer.
Personally, I'm not a religious person. I try to keep my mind open to all possibilities. I like the idea in "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" where the planet that John Malkovich rules believes it all started with a giant sneeze and that the organisms sneezed out evolved and developed over time.
But speaking realistically, I think it's hard for people, religious or not, to even imagine anything greater giving existence to the supreme being of God. I mean, if that being existed, wouldn't the world's religions be worshipping that being instead?

[Viva_ Shira]

Well, you ask the equivalent of the old "which came first: the chicken or the egg?" question. Christians would say the chicken came first because God created all of the animals and placed them on the earth. A non-believer might say that the egg came first but only after evolving from microscopic organisms over millions of years. There, of course, is no right or wrong answer.
Personally, I'm not a religious person. I try to keep my mind open to all possibilities. I like the idea in "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" where the planet that John Malkovich rules believes it all started with a giant sneeze and that the organisms sneezed out evolved and developed over time.
But speaking realistically, I think it's hard for people, religious or not, to even imagine anything greater giving existence to the supreme being of God. I mean, if that being existed, wouldn't the world's religions be worshipping that being instead?

I see what you mean, i am open other religions. Like i learn about the mormons, Hinduism, all of them. I don't know what got into me that day, cause of course, through so many things i can't tell what's real or not. Maybe being a atheist is right, but either way we'll find out soon enough. If there's a god or not...hope so =.=

[bballstar23]

This concept is one that's almost impossible to fathom. It's just part of the human mindset to think that there must be a beginning and end to everything, but that in and of itself is the wonder in it all. It's something we will never be able to grasp, something that continues on forever and ever, which is why I've given up on trying to figure it all out. So, though we think there has to be a start to everything, there doesn't have to be an absolute beginning, if that makes sense. Like I said, it's a really difficult concept to understand, and this question of yours is more philosophical if anything. (Wow, I really need to expand my vocab.)