Revisiting Aizen

[SenpaiRetsu]

I think we may be in for a major dissappointment with Aizen, in light of recent events i'm persuaded to think that Aizen just isn't as strong as we though he was. We always put him on par with Yamamoto, but I think Aizen's not even close.

If just over a century he wasn't even a captain, he is basically an ultra-noob compared to Yama, Unohan, Shunsui, and Ukitake i'm sure the 4 of them have maxed out their powers centuries ago and their powers are declining now.

If we inserted all the captians in bleach in soul society, i'd put Aizen probably at number five powerwise, just at the bottom of the high tiers.

Look at the cental 46 chambers, he didn't attack Unohana. I'm pretty sure that he know he couldn't beat her at that moment. We haven't seen any of the high tiers in action but i'm pretty sure Aizen is going to have to go Viazard if he has any chance of competing. That's why he needs hollow powers because his power now isn't enough to measure up to the big dogs.

discuss.......

[Decado]

This thread feels like a copy of some others. I'll check it out when I'm not so busy
I think we may be in for a major dissappointment with Aizen, in light of recent events i'm persuaded to think that Aizen just isn't as strong as we though he was. We always put him on par with Yamamoto, but I think Aizen's not even close.

If just over a century he wasn't even a captain, he is basically an ultra-noob compared to Yama, Unohan, Shunsui, and Ukitake i'm sure the 4 of them have maxed out their powers centuries ago and their powers are declining now.

But remember, Aizen was Shinji's VC.

Yet Aizen can now sink Grimmjow to his knees with ONLY REIATSU.

Shinji went Vaizard, and did a CERO, and still couldn't kill a one-armed Grimmjow who had already been smashed by a Vaizard Bankai Ichigo. Not to mention he managed to fire a CERO in reply to stop himself from being annhilated. And all that without released.

Also, Shinji was extremely shocked at Ulquiorra's speed in the same chapter (ch236). The wide eyes and startling effects denote that quite clearly. And that's the 4th Espada we're talking about.


Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying Shinji is weak. In fact, he has to be much stronger than Ulq. Much stronger.

I'm saying that by comparison, Aizen has shown he is just as strong, if not much much stronger than what Shinji has shown.


The reason for the flashback could also be to show that since Aizen was a VC, he can now defeat his captain.

[Kenken]

I sort of agree with some stuff you've said. With just a century it's hard for Aizen to be as powerful as we believe he is. While Yama, Shunsui and Ukitake had centuries to reach their limits, their power must be declining now, specially Yama's. It's hard to imagine being able to have reached his limits AND surpass all the captains.

But i don't agree with some stuff. It's true he didn't attack Unohana, but it may be because he had to get the hougyoku, and fighting Unohana might have slowed him down. Also, she being quite a senior captain, there's the matter of not confronting her out of respect. It might not have been due to the fact he couldn't handle her. With his shikai, even if she was very strong Aizen still had the upperhand.

As for him not having enough power NOW as a shinigami to defeat Yama and etc may be right, but he can't really achieve any higher level of strength as a shinigami. With hollow powers it may be possible, if he can't defeat the big dogs with shinigami powers alone. (And I'm arguing this ebcause you made it sounds as if Aizen could achieve more power as far as a shinigami can go).

[Cow Fan]

I've never really thought Unohana could fight very well at all, so I thought it would be just because he saw no need to. Just because Aizen's the bad guy doesn't mean his aim is for as many people as possible to die.

[morrownavy]

Everyone keeps bringing up how powerful Aizen is because he sank Grimjow to his knees. I will make this statement again for speculation:

Aizen can project as much power as he wants. Bottom line. That is his shikai, complete hypnosis.
It affects all senses.
He has two goals. 1. To become more powerful. So he starts messing with hollows to fuse them with shinigamis. Maybe he had an idea of what sandal hat was up to and was trying to do something along the same lines. We will find out in the next couple of weeks.

Goal number 2: He wants to overthrow soul society. He needs an army. Where is the logical chioce to get an army. To the enemies of soul society. If you want to lead the hollows, you have to project that you are uber powerful or they wont follow you. So what does he do? He puts them under his spell to.

Aizen has said that you need two times the reistu of a normal captain to use the sphere. I will give him that. He probably does have two times the normal reistu.
But what constitutes a normal captain? Who would be considered a normal captain? Lets think about who does probably have two times the normal reistu: Ichigo of course, Kenpachi, and Yamoto are probably givens. Ichigo could not floor Grimjow with his reistu so what does that mean? Does that mean Aizen has four times... six times... whats the answer. The logical answer would be that he is using his shikia to project power to the hollows.

Secondly, in manga or any drama/show/cartoon what makes more sense:
1. Fight scene with people going at it and all of a sudden someone shows up out of nowhere and no one bats an eye.

or

2. Fight scene with people going at it and someone shows up and everyone is like OMG WTFO? Come on people, it just makes sense artistically to show reaction. It does not mean that the guy who showed up is super fast and all powerful etc etc.

[Kinetik]

Everyone keeps bringing up how powerful Aizen is because he sank Grimjow to his knees. I will make this statement again for speculation:

Aizen can project as much power as he wants. Bottom line. That is his shikai, complete hypnosis.
It affects all senses.
He has two goals. 1. To become more powerful. So he starts messing with hollows to fuse them with shinigamis. Maybe he had an idea of what sandal hat was up to and was trying to do something along the same lines. We will find out in the next couple of weeks.

Goal number 2: He wants to overthrow soul society. He needs an army. Where is the logical chioce to get an army. To the enemies of soul society. If you want to lead the hollows, you have to project that you are uber powerful or they wont follow you. So what does he do? He puts them under his spell to.

Aizen has said that you need two times the reistu of a normal captain to use the sphere. I will give him that. He probably does have two times the normal reistu.
But what constitutes a normal captain? Who would be considered a normal captain? Lets think about who does probably have two times the normal reistu: Ichigo of course, Kenpachi, and Yamoto are probably givens. Ichigo could not floor Grimjow with his reistu so what does that mean? Does that mean Aizen has four times... six times... whats the answer. The logical answer would be that he is using his shikia to project power to the hollows.

Let's say that your theory of Aizen using his shikai to project power to the hollows.

So if Aizen only had the power of a third seat officer if he used his shikai then he could make it look as if he had more power than Yamma-ji?

The soul cutter is only an extension of the users soul. If Aizen doesn't have the power within his on spiritual body IMO I think it's impossible for him to project power he doesn't have no matter how powerful his shikai could be; you can't feign having white teeth when they are stark yellow.


Secondly, in manga or any drama/show/cartoon what makes more sense:
1. Fight scene with people going at it and all of a sudden someone shows up out of nowhere and no one bats an eye.

or

2. Fight scene with people going at it and someone shows up and everyone is like OMG WTFO? Come on people, it just makes sense artistically to show reaction. It does not mean that the guy who showed up is super fast and all powerful etc etc.

If he knew that Ulq. was coming there is no need for the exclamation marks and the wide eyes. If you know someone is standing behind you, do you act surprised when they tap you on the shoulder? But if someone was behind you and you didnt know and they tapped you or something of the sort your natural reaction would be the widening of the eyes, dialating of the pupils, and adrenaline pumping through your veins (trust me it's a proven fact).

That would be a waste of ink to show Shinji surprised when Kubo could of showed him knowing that he was there in some way.

[B-Eazy]

LOL there is no proof that Aizen's shikai can simulate the effect of a large reiatsu but it is possible that it does. I HIGHLY doubt it does. Like Decado says the proof is in the pudding, even if Aizen isn't as strong as he said he is he clearly is strong enough to waltz into the real world know that the Gotei 13's Elite will be waiting for him. As witty as he has proved to be I doubt he would walk into Yama, Ukitake, Shunsui, Kom, Hits, Soifon and all there VC if he couldn't take any of them one on one.

He didn't fight Unohana because it probably would have been unnecessarily difficult to beat her and would have taken so much time that his plan would have been ruined. Once everyone felt there reiatsu near 46 Chambers they would have been there to stop whatever was going on and that would have meant no Hougyokou for Aizen.

[Codename]

Aizen either became a Vizard and thus his power growth, or he was hiding his true power from Shinji. Would be a great deception if you really were powerful enough to hide your power and make yourself seem like a weak goof.

[FullMetal Rebel]

You are a dumbass.
XD

Anyway, Aizen didn't attack Unohana because she isn't going to get one-shotted, so it would waste far too much time fighting her.

The purpose of the flashbacks showing Aizen was Shinji's VC means the student will surpass the teacher. Not Shinji is stronger or on par with Aizen.

[zero_c]

XD

Anyway, Aizen didn't attack Unohana because she isn't going to get one-shotted, so it would waste far too much time fighting her.

The purpose of the flashbacks showing Aizen was Shinji's VC means the student will surpass the teacher. Not Shinji is stronger or on par with Aizen.

I'm pretty sure the flashback's purpose was to show the origin of the Vaizards and current character's history.

I have to say that some people are overestimating Aizen. They are putting him on a very high pedestal and when he falls, he will fall hard.

[VIDTID]

I think your majourly underestimatin aizen there...I mean cmon why would Kubo make a big badass bad guy if he wasnt one of the strongest?...
Mabye back then he was an ultranoob but now hes the macdaddy who can stop ichigos bankai with his finger and Pwn grimjaww jus with his riatsu!.......Think about it :p

[Rainl]

Even as people may think Yama is decreasing in power, look at what he is capable of, Arguably the strongest character in bleach at the time being. He basically can't even be touched, literally, even in a 2on1 vs two High tier captains,without putting any effort. I think In SS Aizen had no chance of defeating any high tiers, the fact that he wanted to gain the Hougyoku and surpass a limit, can give that possibility a little bit of leaway.

I personally think Aizen is a little overhyped, and isn't as powerful as made out to be, Sure people always refer to his reiatsu when he dismantled Grimmjow and try to put him ahead of Yamamoto simply because he only Forced down a mere VC, however with this you have to look at the magnitude and condition that Nanao and Grimmjow were in.

When Aizen used his pressure on Grimmjow,sure, he fell to his knees, but when aizen stopped merely a couple of seconds later or a minute later, he was able to regain his footing, However when Yama displayed merely eye contact with Nanao, Aizen's effect on Grimmjow doesn't even come close in comparison to Nanao's reaction, She would have without a doubt been killed, if it continued a second longer.

She was basically down for the count, and couldn't move an inch afterwards. So its a bit flawed to use that Aizen>Grimmjow ,Yama>VC, so Aizen>Yama logic. So I still can't see why some people still assume immediately SS has no chance, against Aizen.

This latest chapters sort of proves that hypnosis ability of his isn't a guarantee of victory, seeing how easily Shinji saw through it, what raises even more questions, is if Only shinji is able to do it, we don't know that so no assumptions.

There may be others as well who can see through his ability, and if thats the case, yes Ill say, (God forbid anyone to talk against Aizen), He is screwed.

[Minielf]

@Criware: You make a good point. Aizen floored Grimmjow with his spirit pressure, but the moment he relaxed it Grimmjow was able to make some sort of recovery. Whereas Nanao's spirit was basically crushed by Yama's stare and she fainted soon after Shunsui shunpo'd her away.

[Codename]

Yea but Grimmjow >>> Nanao in a way it's not even really comparable.

[Kenken]

Yama simply put Nanao down with his gaze. He wouldn't even need to use his reiatsu to put her down, or at least less than 1%. Either way it is a bad comparison.

And as vidtid said, it seems like we're understimating Aizen. Unless there's a greater force behind Aizen, I don't think he's weak. He must at least be at Yama's level to be considered a real threat.

[uahc]

I've written quite a few long posts about this Nanao and Grimmjow comparison:

"Yamamoto's paralysis of Nanao is seen to be nothing next to Aizen's paralysis of Grimmjow, but we can look at it in another way. Grimmjow was taken to the floor and immobilized by Aizen, but after Aizen removed his focus Grimmjow was perfectly fine. Nanao on the other hand was paralyzed and basically down for the count, she couldn't even breathe (not sure if Grimmjow could).

Ok ok, I know Grimmjow is like a million times stronger than Nanao, but you have to remember what Nanao before and after being subjected to Yamamoto's reiatsu. At first, Nanao says that with 2 captains it doesn't necessarily ensure victory. Yea, that is nothing special seeing as though Nanao is a little knowledgeable and knows that the captain commander should be powerful. However, after she is crushed by Yamamoto's reiatsu her views change completely. She stated it was "HOPELESS" for both Shunshui and Ukitake to even fight with Yamamoto. Nanao, considered the two oldest, most experienced, and most powerful (supposedly) captains to have absolutely no chance in hell of defeating Yamamoto. This is an extremely bold statement, considering Nanao was only crushed by a Yamamoto that didn't even have enough reiatsu to release his Shikai. Yamamoto had to do a major power-up afterwards in order to just release his Shikai. This can go to show that the incident with Nanao wasn't as trivial as it seemed. At best I hope this can stop people from assuming that Aizen's reiatsu is higher than Yamamoto. For all we know Aizen only has 2-3x the reiatsu of an average captain. Shunshui and Ukitake both definitely have at least 1.5x the reiatsu of an average captain, and their combined reiatsu's was not enough to take on Yamamoto, so we can assume Yamamoto has at least 3x the reiatsu of an average captain."

The argument goes a more in-depth if you care to read
http://forums.bleachportal.net/showthread.php?p=2266217#post2266217

Basically I just argue with Undying who keeps purposely misinterpreting my posts to try and divert the discussion from refuting any statements I've made since they can't really be refuted.

[Kenken]

I've written quite a few long posts about this Nanao and Grimmjow comparison:

"Yamamoto's paralysis of Nanao is seen to be nothing next to Aizen's paralysis of Grimmjow, but we can look at it in another way. Grimmjow was taken to the floor and immobilized by Aizen, but after Aizen removed his focus Grimmjow was perfectly fine. Nanao on the other hand was paralyzed and basically down for the count, she couldn't even breathe (not sure if Grimmjow could).

Ok ok, I know Grimmjow is like a million times stronger than Nanao, but you have to remember what Nanao before and after being subjected to Yamamoto's reiatsu. At first, Nanao says that with 2 captains it doesn't necessarily ensure victory. Yea, that is nothing special seeing as though Nanao is a little knowledgeable and knows that the captain commander should be powerful. However, after she is crushed by Yamamoto's reiatsu her views change completely. She stated it was "HOPELESS" for both Shunshui and Ukitake to even fight with Yamamoto. Nanao, considered the two oldest, most experienced, and most powerful (supposedly) captains to have absolutely no chance in hell of defeating Yamamoto. This is an extremely bold statement, considering Nanao was only crushed by a Yamamoto that didn't even have enough reiatsu to release his Shikai. Yamamoto had to do a major power-up afterwards in order to just release his Shikai. This can go to show that the incident with Nanao wasn't as trivial as it seemed. At best I hope this can stop people from assuming that Aizen's reiatsu is higher than Yamamoto. For all we know Aizen only has 2-3x the reiatsu of an average captain. Shunshui and Ukitake both definitely have at least 1.5x the reiatsu of an average captain, and their combined reiatsu's was not enough to take on Yamamoto, so we can assume Yamamoto has at least 3x the reiatsu of an average captain."

The argument goes a more in-depth if you care to read
http://forums.bleachportal.net/showthread.php?p=2266217#post2266217

Basically I just argue with Undying who keeps purposely misinterpreting my posts to try and divert the discussion from refuting any statements I've made since they can't really be refuted.

Or Yama's purpose was to show her she was on the 'wrong' side, and thus used a little more strength needed to inmobilize her, while Aizen just used a little to bring Grimmjow's to his knees, but not to take his breath out for a long period of time.

[Rainl]

Or Yama's purpose was to show her she was on the 'wrong' side, and thus used a little more strength needed to inmobilize her, while Aizen just used a little to bring Grimmjow's to his knees, but not to take his breath out for a long period of time.

For all we know, Yama didn't release any reiatsu at all. She what have at least hinted at it being his spiritual pressure, You only said he displayed "Mere eye contact".

[B-Eazy]

You guys are forgetting one thing, Yama was pissed. So even if he hadn't already released, the gloves were already off and his reiatsu was meant to impose his superiority. PERIOD.

Aizen flexed his reiatsu, and Grim fell as we all know but what makes that a much more important feat is this:

Aizen just asserting his position w/reiatsu>Grim=Mid Capt

Yama reiatsu when he is pissed ready to kill his 2 favorite students >Nanao=Low VC

I think that kinda puts the circumstances on completely different levels. I'm pretty sure Aizen isn't over-amped as far as power levels go. He's ready to fight the Gotei (minus those in HM) with just Gin and Tousen and his top 3 Espada. that 6 Captains, 8 VC's, Ikkaku and Yumichka, Kisuke, Yoruichi that he is ready to take on. Their only saving grace maybe Ryuuken and Isshin. But if he is planning on defeating all those shinigami you better believe he already knows what his chances are

[Rainl]

You guys are forgetting one thing, Yama was pissed. So even if he hadn't already released, the gloves were already off and his reiatsu was meant to impose his superiority. PERIOD.

Aizen flexed his reiatsu, and Grim fell as we all know but what makes that a much more important feat is this:

Aizen just asserting his position w/reiatsu>Grim=Mid Capt

Yama reiatsu when he is pissed ready to kill his 2 favorite students >Nanao=Low VC

I think that kinda puts the circumstances on completely different levels. I'm pretty sure Aizen isn't over-amped as far as power levels go. He's ready to fight the Gotei (minus those in HM) with just Gin and Tousen and his top 3 Espada. that 6 Captains, 8 VC's, Ikkaku and Yumichka, Kisuke, Yoruichi that he is ready to take on. Their only saving grace maybe Ryuuken and Isshin. But if he is planning on defeating all those shinigami you better believe he already knows what his chances are

Thats possible, but on the contrary. I dont think Yama was as pissed as people make it seem, it seems that way simply because its his character, he isn't the type to just keep cool about anything, he's far to senile, and grumpy, he simply wanted to teach them a lesson. Which could easily overwhelm them no sweat, while he couldn't get scratched.

Take Byakuya for example, He may at times get pissed, but due to his character, he is the type created to simply keep cool under certain circumstances, and won't show it, this could apply to Aizen also.

I don't think Yama did it to impose his superiority at all, for what? He is the head captain, everyone already knows this.

Before the quarrel even began, Nanao could feel his heavy reiatsu, which he wasn't even inflicting, simply by him walking towards them. He simply gazed at Nanao, and she was on the verge on death. I don't think he inflicted reiatsu at all, due to how when Shunsui stepped infront of her, hence the eye contact was broken, and the way reiatsu works.
You don't necessarily need to establish eye contact before you can inflict in on your opponent and only then was she safe

[captainmawaluigi]

I think we may be in for a major dissappointment with Aizen, in light of recent events i'm persuaded to think that Aizen just isn't as strong as we though he was. We always put him on par with Yamamoto, but I think Aizen's not even close.



If just over a century he wasn't even a captain, he is basically an ultra-noob compared to Yama, Unohan, Shunsui, and Ukitake i'm sure the 4 of them have maxed out their powers centuries ago and their powers are declining now.

If we inserted all the captians in bleach in soul society, i'd put Aizen probably at number five powerwise, just at the bottom of the high tiers.

Look at the cental 46 chambers, he didn't attack Unohana. I'm pretty sure that he know he couldn't beat her at that moment. We haven't seen any of the high tiers in action but i'm pretty sure Aizen is going to have to go Viazard if he has any chance of competing. That's why he needs hollow powers because his power now isn't enough to measure up to the big dogs.

discuss.......

You really said nothing at all. Look at it this way, seated position, means nothing. And, if you were to overthrow or overtake something, you would WANT people to underestimate you, that way, when you meet up, they would not take you as serious, and they would also not pay attention to your other actions.

So far, Aizen could be stronger than Yammotto from his VC days, and he could be hiding his true power the whole time. And then, he made his captain in the latest chapter, fear him somehow, and on top of that, I believe he is stronger for not killing everyone.

By killing someone, that means, you believe they can put a damper into your future plans. For instance, if you were sneaking into some building and saw an armed gaurd, you would take him out. But a BAMF that Aizen is, he would walk right past him, and say, Hey, Im breaking into that bank.......shoot me if you can.

So far, he has a great personality. He plays upon innocence, and deals blows when needed. He tells you his plan, allowing him to plan ahead of your counter attack. For instance, he was going to get the Kings Key in Kt, so he knew they would prepare somehow, and he countered them by trapping half of the captains.

Can he defeat those in front of him? Time will tell. Can he beat all of SS? Time will tell. I dont see how you can call him a weakling. He does not use guerilla tactics, and at the same time, he is not afraid to slice you up(Ichigo/Hitsyugaya)

I just read this topic, and people talk about who can hold who down with whos power....useless topic.

That doesnt matter, as those people are not going to fight weaklings, they will fight each other most likely. We dont know the extent of EITHERS power. In the Manga, the 2 captains had minor injuries, while Yammoto had nothing on him. Now his shikai can reduce all to ashes, but of course, anything within Aizens power, such as his clothes and sword, will not be affected.

It comes down to match ups people. Until we see how these guys matchup against EACH OTHER, or at least, what their Bankais are, we can not say much. What if Aizens power controls all bodys of water? But Yammotto can boil all the water?!?!?

Lets wait and see guys.

[Draykan]

Well I just wonder when Aizen actually started his plans and plots. I mean why is he being so secretive now. He just found out about the Zero division he might just decided i'm gonna take that over, plot. I mean Urahara hasn't made the Orb yet, and if he has Aizen probably doesn't know about it. Has he even started his hardcore power training? He might have just beefed up after high school.

[SenpaiRetsu]

You really said nothing at all. Look at it this way, seated position, means nothing. And, if you were to overthrow or overtake something, you would WANT people to underestimate you, that way, when you meet up, they would not take you as serious, and they would also not pay attention to your other actions.

So far, Aizen could be stronger than Yammotto from his VC days, and he could be hiding his true power the whole time. And then, he made his captain in the latest chapter, fear him somehow, and on top of that, I believe he is stronger for not killing everyone.

By killing someone, that means, you believe they can put a damper into your future plans. For instance, if you were sneaking into some building and saw an armed gaurd, you would take him out. But a BAMF that Aizen is, he would walk right past him, and say, Hey, Im breaking into that bank.......shoot me if you can.

So far, he has a great personality. He plays upon innocence, and deals blows when needed. He tells you his plan, allowing him to plan ahead of your counter attack. For instance, he was going to get the Kings Key in Kt, so he knew they would prepare somehow, and he countered them by trapping half of the captains.

Can he defeat those in front of him? Time will tell. Can he beat all of SS? Time will tell. I dont see how you can call him a weakling. He does not use guerilla tactics, and at the same time, he is not afraid to slice you up(Ichigo/Hitsyugaya)

I just read this topic, and people talk about who can hold who down with whos power....useless topic.

That doesnt matter, as those people are not going to fight weaklings, they will fight each other most likely. We dont know the extent of EITHERS power. In the Manga, the 2 captains had minor injuries, while Yammoto had nothing on him. Now his shikai can reduce all to ashes, but of course, anything within Aizens power, such as his clothes and sword, will not be affected.

It comes down to match ups people. Until we see how these guys matchup against EACH OTHER, or at least, what their Bankais are, we can not say much. What if Aizens power controls all bodys of water? But Yammotto can boil all the water?!?!?

Lets wait and see guys.


I'm not saying Aizen is weak just saying he's not on the level of the high tiers in the gotei 13. he's somewhere close maybe but think about it. he's an ultra newb compared to them. The high tiers have been captains probably longer than Aizen has been alive.

Aizen his strong indeed but most of his strength i believe lies in his intellect and at deception. He's a great deciever. I doubt Aizen has enough power-wise to take on 2 high tier captains at once and come out unscathed, i highly doubt it.

[smach]

yea, i agree.

Or Yama's purpose was to show her she was on the 'wrong' side, and thus used a little more strength needed to inmobilize her, while Aizen just used a little to bring Grimmjow's to his knees, but not to take his breath out for a long period of time.well i say if aizen is that amazing then he's maxed out everything including his hollow powers...or it's his shikai playing around with ppl's minds. imean since when could reiatsu be directed solely to one person?

For all we know, Yama didn't release any reiatsu at all. She what have at least hinted at it being his spiritual pressure, You only said he displayed "Mere eye contact". "a child like you...i don't have the patience...to teach you how to breathe."
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/06/

reiatsu (aka spirit pressure) is the only thing we know of that can "choke" someone.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/104/04/

I don't think Yama did it to impose his superiority at all, for what? He is the head captain, everyone already knows this.except for nanao-chan...she had the balls to even attempt to pull something on the genryusai taichou, as if he wouldn't notice or take it seriously, especially considering the tension that was in the air throughout SS.

Before the quarrel even began, Nanao could feel his heavy reiatsu, which he wasn't even inflicting, simply by him walking towards them. He simply gazed at Nanao, and she was on the verge on death. I don't think he inflicted reiatsu at all, due to how when Shunsui stepped infront of her, hence the eye contact was broken, and the way reiatsu works.
You don't necessarily need to establish eye contact before you can inflict in on your opponent and only then was she safei guess if your reiatsu is that amazing then glancing at someone significantly weaker will choke them like a normal konpaku...but it also seems like having a relatively powerful individual stand in the way will break the concentration...like ichigo told nell: not even a sliver of reiatsu will get past me (ch253 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/253/12/)).

[Guts]

Aizen said that he will be the new god back when he escape into HM


Period... He wont make that remark if he wasnt stronger than anyone in SS... seriously..



He defeated 2 captains in their bankai and banka ichigo with just an blink of an eye... you telling him he is not as strong as Yama?


Dude he was still using shinka...

[SenpaiRetsu]

Aizen said that he will be the new god back when he escape into HM


Period... He wont make that remark if he wasnt stronger than anyone in SS... seriously..



He defeated 2 captains in their bankai and banka ichigo with just an blink of an eye... you telling him he is not as strong as Yama?


Dude he was still using shinka...

i think this is a bit distorted........ KO'd the two weakest captains before he was attacked, he did not fight them simultaneously for one. Yama fought the 2 strongest captains IN SHIKAI at the same time. so fighting two newbie captains seperately and the two most strongest captains outside of yama at once is not even comparable.

Hitsugaya's ultimate attack couldn't even put Luppi out of commision, he phails. He couldn't even land one strike in Gin when he was in shikai and Gin was normal.

blocking Ichigo, ichigo without GT has like no attack power. he couldn't cut Grimmy, Nnoitora, and didn't even come close to cutting Ulq. Ichigo minus GT.... he mine as well be waving a stick.

Exactly Aizen now isn't stronger than everyone in SS, if he wasn't he wouldn't need to go hollow now would he?

Powerwise i'm speculating(not stating as a fact)

Yama>>>Aizen
Shunsui>Aizen
Unohana=Aizen
Aizen>Ukitake


Why do i say this it's clear that Yama and Shunsui's shikai and bankai's give them an attack power boost. Aizen gets no boost from his shikai, his bankai will probably not give him much of a power boost.

Yama base is pwnage, Yama with a 10x boost in attack power is unimaginable.

Unohana's shikai gives her no power boost, her bankai may not either, we don't know, so i put her on equal footing with Aizen.

Ukitake is sick, enough said.

[smach]

Aizen said that he will be the new god back when he escape into HM


Period... He wont make that remark if he wasnt stronger than anyone in SS... seriously..



He defeated 2 captains in their bankai and banka ichigo with just an blink of an eye... you telling him he is not as strong as Yama?


Dude he was still using shinka...aizen's shikai ability is an illusion. i repeat, AN ILLUSION. even though anime made it seem like hitsugya stabbed an illusion, the manga looks more like aizen's pure speed to me.

komamura didn't even get to release. aizen activated his shikai and used a kido spell. and then proceeded to say: Kyouka Suigetsu's "Complete Hypnosis" is absolutely flawless. Even if the target is aware of its ability, they cannot resist its influence.

ichigo got owned with power coz just like komamura, aizen was immune to his sword. that's something that i can't picture yama doing either, for it seems like a little too much for a normal shinigami to effortlessly accomplish. he was also immune to a sword, a trait that only espadas 6 and higher are in possession of.

and then for him to go and sink grimjow with reiatsu...while those weaker than him are left unaffected...leads me to believe that it's either an illusion or he's maxed out everything including hollow powers.


EDIT: also, was this kido? (ch106 p14-15 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/106/14/))

[SenpaiRetsu]

aizen's shikai ability is an illusion. i repeat, AN ILLUSION. even though anime made it seem like hitsugya stabbed an illusion, the manga looks more like aizen's pure speed to me.

komamura didn't even get to release. aizen activated his shikai and used a kido spell. and then proceeded to say: Kyouka Suigetsu's "Complete Hypnosis" is absolutely flawless. Even if the target is aware of its ability, they cannot resist its influence.

ichigo got owned with power coz just like komamura, aizen was immune to his sword. that's something that i can't picture yama doing either, for it seems like a little too much for a normal shinigami to effortlessly accomplish. he was also immune to a sword, a trait that only espadas 6 and higher are in possession of.

and then for him to go and sink grimjow with reiatsu...while those weaker than him are left unaffected...leads me to believe that it's either an illusion or he's maxed out everything including hollow powers.


EDIT: also, was this kido? (ch106 p14-15 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/106/14/))

being immune to a sword is not all that of an unsual thing, it's all about riatsu. ichigo couldn't cut zaraki at first until he got confident. the being immune to a sword is definitely not an ancr thing.

Bleach is terribly full of inconsistencies anyway, for instance Old man Yama has scars all over his body, scars from what? To our knowledge SS has never fough hollows as strong as the current espada, what hollows or any creature for that matter could have possible scarred him?

[Klavier Gavin]

Good point there, perhaps those were scars from his long battles? Like really old battles when he was a young shinigami. The scars might also be there just to show that he has been through a lot of battles and have more battle experience than anyone else.

Pure speculation though, nothing much has been shown about old man so far.

In my opinion, Aizen chose to target his reiatsu at Grimmjow alone as the other espada were not affected. Yamamoto, on the other hand wasn't fixing his reiatsu on Nanao. I believe that reiatsu that's fixed on someone alone is a lot more to bear than incidental release of reiatsu.

[smach]

being immune to a sword is not all that of an unsual thing, it's all about riatsu. ichigo couldn't cut zaraki at first until he got confident. the being immune to a sword is definitely not an ancr thing.yea, but for yama to also be immune would be just that liittle ounce that tips the scale. imean ichigo couldn't do jack to ulquiorra, who's the lowest VL...and aizen was looking for more VLs +100 chapters ago so he's prolly got some newer ones to reveal in the future. and aizen is supposedly above them all coz he's their leader. idk...there's something about aizen that just seems a little off to me.

Bleach is terribly full of inconsistencies anyway, for instance Old man Yama has scars all over his body, scars from what? To our knowledge SS has never fough hollows as strong as the current espada, what hollows or any creature for that matter could have possible scarred him?the scars indicate how badass he is, same applies to isshin's shinigami form. we didn't need zaraki to tell us how badass he is after seeing his body and hearing his voice, did we? for all we know, those injuries could've been attained while training with that crazy suicidal thing he calls ryuu-jin-jakka (sp?).

In my opinion, Aizen chose to target his reiatsu at Grimmjow alone as the other espada were not affected. Yamamoto, on the other hand wasn't fixing his reiatsu on Nanao. I believe that reiatsu that's fixed on someone alone is a lot more to bear than incidental release of reiatsu.then how do u explain byakuya at the bridge?

[Rainl]

Good point there, perhaps those were scars from his long battles? Like really old battles when he was a young shinigami. The scars might also be there just to show that he has been through a lot of battles and have more battle experience than anyone else.

Pure speculation though, nothing much has been shown about old man so far.

In my opinion, Aizen chose to target his reiatsu at Grimmjow alone as the other espada were not affected. Yamamoto, on the other hand wasn't fixing his reiatsu on Nanao. I believe that reiatsu that's fixed on someone alone is a lot more to bear than incidental release of reiatsu.


What would make you think Yama isn't capable of fixing his reiatsu on one person. I think he indeed did apply the reiatsu to only nanao chan, hence why it showed he had complete eye contact to her and only her.

Quite frankly I don't think the pressure he applied was much at all, he was even unreleased, and the reiatsu wasn't even near as high enough generate his shikai.

I highly doubt Shunsui and Ukitake would've sat there as calmly as they did, if Yama had spread around all of his reiatsu over everyone.

[uahc]

You guys are forgetting one thing, Yama was pissed. So even if he hadn't already released, the gloves were already off and his reiatsu was meant to impose his superiority. PERIOD.

Aizen flexed his reiatsu, and Grim fell as we all know but what makes that a much more important feat is this:

Aizen just asserting his position w/reiatsu>Grim=Mid Capt

Yama reiatsu when he is pissed ready to kill his 2 favorite students >Nanao=Low VC

I think that kinda puts the circumstances on completely different levels. I'm pretty sure Aizen isn't over-amped as far as power levels go. He's ready to fight the Gotei (minus those in HM) with just Gin and Tousen and his top 3 Espada. that 6 Captains, 8 VC's, Ikkaku and Yumichka, Kisuke, Yoruichi that he is ready to take on. Their only saving grace maybe Ryuuken and Isshin. But if he is planning on defeating all those shinigami you better believe he already knows what his chances are

Are you forgetting the fact that Yamamoto had to spend a few long drawn out moments to draw out the power in order to release his Shikai? His gaze crushed Nanao to such an extent that she would probably have died if Shunshui was not there, and this is BEFORE being in Shikai.

As for Byakuya on the bridge and "focusing" reiatsu it is quite obvious that any powerful being in the bleach universe imposes a spiritual pressure to the surrounding. The fact is that the difference in power between Nanao and Yamamoto is beyond great, whereas the difference between the Espada and Aizen are obviously much lower.

[Guts]

If yama got killed by Aizen at Karakura in the next upcoming episodes... I think it will put these topic to rest permanetly...


Seriously what a joke Kubo would be if Aizen can't even win Yama...

[zero_c]

You guys are forgetting one thing, Yama was pissed. So even if he hadn't already released, the gloves were already off and his reiatsu was meant to impose his superiority. PERIOD.

Aizen flexed his reiatsu, and Grim fell as we all know but what makes that a much more important feat is this:

Aizen just asserting his position w/reiatsu>Grim=Mid Capt

Yama reiatsu when he is pissed ready to kill his 2 favorite students >Nanao=Low VC

I think that kinda puts the circumstances on completely different levels. I'm pretty sure Aizen isn't over-amped as far as power levels go. He's ready to fight the Gotei (minus those in HM) with just Gin and Tousen and his top 3 Espada. that 6 Captains, 8 VC's, Ikkaku and Yumichka, Kisuke, Yoruichi that he is ready to take on. Their only saving grace maybe Ryuuken and Isshin. But if he is planning on defeating all those shinigami you better believe he already knows what his chances are

I wouldn't say that Yama was pissed, its more like he was disappointed in his student. And by no means was he going to kill his student. If he was pissed or had the intent to kill, he would have gone Bankai and just end it there.

Also in terms of the comparison between Nanao and Grim, its two different circumstances. In Grim's situation, its like he was sucker punched by Aizen. Do you really think Grim had idea that someone would be hostile towards him during that meeting, in addition, any sign of disobedience from Grim (ie: use his raitsu to repel Aizen) would result in bad situation for him.

While in Nanao's case, she was ready for battle and she knew what they did was against bad. She had her raitsu ready for battle.

I really think that Grim was using less than 10% of his raitsu while Nano was using 100% of hers.

[B-Eazy]

I wouldn't say that Yama was pissed, its more like he was disappointed in his student. And by no means was he going to kill his student. If he was pissed or had the intent to kill, he would have gone Bankai and just end it there.

Also in terms of the comparison between Nanao and Grim, its two different circumstances. In Grim's situation, its like he was sucker punched by Aizen. Do you really think Grim had idea that someone would be hostile towards him during that meeting, in addition, any sign of disobedience from Grim (ie: use his raitsu to repel Aizen) would result in bad situation for him.

While in Nanao's case, she was ready for battle and she knew what they did was against bad. She had her raitsu ready for battle.

I really think that Grim was using less than 10% of his raitsu while Nano was using 100% of hers.
Your probably right because 10% unreleased Grim=Nanao 100%. Regardless of the percentage of reiatsu the recipient was using the point I think really matters is intent. Aizen was kinda laughing, like when a 3 year old is mad at Daddy and thinks he's gonna push or move Daddy out the way. Daddy merely asserts his position, picks up Timmy and puts him in the play pen. But for Yama, he was ready to kill and I kinda realized something. He may have not released his reiatsu but his killing intent is what put Nanao down. Just like when Ichigo felt like he was stabbed by Zaraki's killing intent Nanao was paralyzed by it. Either way, Aizen mad a Captain level fighter drop to his knees with a quick burst of reiatsu alone.

Also, Aizen has at least twice the reiatsu of an average Captain. Depending on where you got your scanlation it might say he has twice, but he apparently has more

[Rainl]

Your probably right because 10% unreleased Grim=Nanao 100%. Regardless of the percentage of reiatsu the recipient was using the point I think really matters is intent. Aizen was kinda laughing, like when a 3 year old is mad at Daddy and thinks he's gonna push or move Daddy out the way. Daddy merely asserts his position, picks up Timmy and puts him in the play pen. But for Yama, he was ready to kill and I kinda realized something. He may have not released his reiatsu but his killing intent is what put Nanao down. Just like when Ichigo felt like he was stabbed by Zaraki's killing intent Nanao was paralyzed by it. Either way, Aizen mad a Captain level fighter drop to his knees with a quick burst of reiatsu alone.

Also, Aizen has at least twice the reiatsu of an average Captain. Depending on where you got your scanlation it might say he has twice, but he apparently has more

Yama, wasn't ready to kill at all, if he wanted who would have, He simply told her to basically leave before things get out of hand. Its simple he only glanced at Nanao chan, released a very slim amount of reiatsu and she was near death, Grimmjow was fine after he was free from Aizen's pressure Nanao wasn't.

On another note, since there is speculation, that Aizen may haved use his hypnosis ability, to make Grimmjow feel more than he was actually putting off, from this you could say, Yes Aizen can indeed, Put down an opponent, who's around low Mid tier captain level, WITH SHIKAI LEVEL REIATSU, If he in fact did use his Hypnosis, since that is his shikai

On the other hand, Yama was unreleased, the reiatsu he put off wasn't even close to being enough to conjure up his shikai, and even in his unreleased calm state, he can use this extremely low reiatsu and put a VC on the verge of dying. What do you think would happen if he had used Shikai level reiatsu on a Mid low tier captain?

Yes Im quite sure Aizen is definately the strength of 2 captains or more if he has aquired Vaizard status, since thats the required amount of power, to activate the Hougyoku.

Same can be said for Yama, Yama can take on 2 HIGH TIER captains at once, and come out the battle without a scratch. So you can assume, what, Yama would need atleast 3 High Tier, Not mid tier, not low tier, HIGH TIER captains against him to atleast cause him trouble seeing how 2 couldn't touch him, at all.

[B-Eazy]

Yama, wasn't ready to kill at all, if he wanted who would have, He simply told her to basically leave before things get out of hand. Its simple he only glanced at Nanao chan, released a very slim amount of reiatsu and she was near death, Grimmjow was fine after he was free from Aizen's pressure Nanao wasn't.

On another note, since there is speculation, that Aizen may haved use his hypnosis ability, to make Grimmjow feel more than he was actually putting off, from this you could say, Yes Aizen can indeed, Put down an opponent, who's around low Mid tier captain level, WITH SHIKAI LEVEL REIATSU, If he in fact did use his Hypnosis, since that is his shikai

On the other hand, Yama was unreleased, the reiatsu he put off wasn't even close to being enough to conjure up his shikai, and even in his unreleased calm state, he can use this extremely low reiatsu and put a VC on the verge of dying. What do you think would happen if he had used Shikai level reiatsu on a Mid low tier captain?

Yes Im quite sure Aizen is definately the strength of 2 captains or more if he has aquired Vaizard status, since thats the required amount of power, to activate the Hougyoku.

Same can be said for Yama, Yama can take on 2 HIGH TIER captains at once, and come out the battle without a scratch. So you can assume, what, Yama would need atleast 3 High Tier, Not mid tier, not low tier, HIGH TIER captains against him to atleast cause him trouble seeing how 2 couldn't touch him, at all.
You didn't read my post even though you quoted it. I believe it wasn't exactly Yama's reiatsu that put Nanao down it was his intent. His intent was to kill Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/21/) and Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/12/). Like when Ichi felt Zaraki's intent

As for Aizen, it could have been hypnosis but I doubt it. I believe it is possible of creating this effect with his shikai but why would he. The way he waltzed outta SS without a single worry I doubt he would need to do something like that for an UNRELEASED ESPADA 6 that ICHIGO DEFEATED. Yama is a powerhouse no doubt but to say he is stronger than Aizen is ridiculous because haven't even see Aizen try to hurt someone yet.

In the fight of Yama vs Ukitake and Shunsui we have no idea what happened and EVERYONE APPEARED FINE NOT ONLY YAMA. So either Yama is not as deadly as we think, Shunsui and Ukitake are better than we believe or nothing even happened besides that big clash

[Jay3205]

You didn't read my post even though you quoted it. I believe it wasn't exactly Yama's reiatsu that put Nanao down it was his intent. His intent was to kill Here and Here. Like when Ichi felt Zaraki's intentI don't think it was his intent to "kill", since he said he didn't want to waste time with a VC. However, I think his gaze is what caused so much distress. After all, Nanao explicitly says "only by meeting eyes (eye contact), I am being supressed". There's obviously some reiatsu involved though, since eye contact doesn't make those "reiatsu blurs" and can't make clothes start flapping around.

On another note, it seems that with the current story (before the flashback), Yamamoto is ready to fight. The only people Yamamoto can fight and have it be a challenging match are Aizen or the 1st espada, and I really doubt the 1st espada is who he'll fight.

[zero_c]

I don't think it was his intent to "kill", since he said he didn't want to waste time with a VC. However, I think his gaze is what caused so much distress. After all, Nanao explicitly says "only by meeting eyes (eye contact), I am being supressed". There's obviously some reiatsu involved though, since eye contact doesn't make those "reiatsu blurs" and can't make clothes start flapping around.

On another note, it seems that with the current story (before the flashback), Yamamoto is ready to fight. The only people Yamamoto can fight and have it be a challenging match are Aizen or the 1st espada, and I really doubt the 1st espada is who he'll fight.

I have to agree with you, there was no intent to kill from Yama. As I have said, if he really want to kill people, he would have went Bankai and went all out. I think he was just giving Shunsui and Ukitake a slap on the wrist.

[Rainl]

You didn't read my post even though you quoted it. I believe it wasn't exactly Yama's reiatsu that put Nanao down it was his intent. His intent was to kill Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/21/) and Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/12/). Like when Ichi felt Zaraki's intent

As for Aizen, it could have been hypnosis but I doubt it. I believe it is possible of creating this effect with his shikai but why would he. The way he waltzed outta SS without a single worry I doubt he would need to do something like that for an UNRELEASED ESPADA 6 that ICHIGO DEFEATED. Yama is a powerhouse no doubt but to say he is stronger than Aizen is ridiculous because haven't even see Aizen try to hurt someone yet.

In the fight of Yama vs Ukitake and Shunsui we have no idea what happened and EVERYONE APPEARED FINE NOT ONLY YAMA. So either Yama is not as deadly as we think, Shunsui and Ukitake are better than we believe or nothing even happened besides that big clash

He had no intent to kill anyone, he simply told VC to begone, before it got out of hand. Now sit down and think honestly, No matter what, could you honestly fight all out, with the intent to kill, someone who you see as your own 2 sons. It doesn't matter what they did, you won't try to kill them.

Shunsui and Ukitake, are his first pupils, some of the very first in the Academy he himself started, and who he actually mentored and tutored. I doubt he really wanted to hurt them badly.

Aizen hasn't trieddddd to hurt anyone, in fact he already has hurt many people already, but we haven't seen any of Yama at all.

No I never said Yama was stronger than Aizen, but way to many people believe Aizen can just flat out squash Yama, because of his Shikai, which is totally false, and No if you watch the anime, which I doubt since hardly anyone does episode 61 if you want, or look closely at the manga, you can See Shunsui and Ukitake, looking wore out, and both of them had blood running down there face, so something did happen.

While yama just stood there, without a scratch or even a drop of sweat.

They probably got that just from the clash. I don't think Yama actually slashed them with that sword, which can probably one shot deal the majority of bleach, he does have the highest attacking Zanpaktou, so I doubt Shunsui or Ukitake would just come out with a few minor cuts here and there.

[Guts]

He had no intent to kill anyone, he simply told VC to begone, before it got out of hand. Now sit down and think honestly, No matter what, could you honestly fight all out, with the intent to kill, someone who you see as your own 2 sons. It doesn't matter what they did, you won't try to kill them.

Shunsui and Ukitake, are his first pupils, some of the very first in the Academy he himself started, and who he actually mentored and tutored. I doubt he really wanted to hurt them badly.

Aizen hasn't trieddddd to hurt anyone, in fact he already has hurt many people already, but we haven't seen any of Yama at all.

No I never said Yama was stronger than Aizen, but way to many people believe Aizen can just flat out squash Yama, because of his Shikai, which is totally false,
.


while I do not believe Azien could flat out squash yama, but to be stronger than Aizen is definitely a no-no... Yama could be the only opponent that is strong enough to force Aizen into releasing its bankai (His own bankai causing Aizen to make that move)... And let us see a good gimplise of its prowess, before bringing Yama down to its kneels...

That is the highest capability that Yama's power is able to do, I believe...

[smach]

quick question: why are you referring to yama as an object? he's also human dammit!

adding to what Jay said, the vertical lines and massive sweat-dripping are all signs of reiatsu being raised/used, so it's certain that yama was pressuring/restraining nanao-chan with his...hence his reference to her ability to breathe.

[Freya]

I don't think Yama did it to impose his superiority at all, for what? He is the head captain, everyone already knows this.

Before the quarrel even began, Nanao could feel his heavy reiatsu, which he wasn't even inflicting, simply by him walking towards them. He simply gazed at Nanao, and she was on the verge on death. I don't think he inflicted reiatsu at all, due to how when Shunsui stepped infront of her, hence the eye contact was broken, and the way reiatsu works.
You don't necessarily need to establish eye contact before you can inflict in on your opponent and only then was she safe

I agree with the above statements, plus we need to remember that he established the Gotei 13 and has probably held the Captain-Commander seat since the beginning. You've got to be pretty Dang strong to hold the position for that long.


except for nanao-chan...she had the balls to even attempt to pull something on the genryusai taichou, as if he wouldn't notice or take it seriously, especially considering the tension that was in the air throughout SS.

i guess if your reiatsu is that amazing then glancing at someone significantly weaker will choke them like a normal konpaku...but it also seems like having a relatively powerful individual stand in the way will break the concentration...like ichigo told nell: not even a sliver of reiatsu will get past me

I agree, Yama was punishing Nanao to put her in her place and make her truly see what she was getting herself into.
I do however think that it is very possible that he can direct his reiatsu wherever he wants to. He's been the Captain-Commander since the beginning of the Gotei 13.

Aizen said that he will be the new god back when he escape into HM
Period... He wont make that remark if he wasnt stronger than anyone in SS... seriously..


He is very strong, I will give you that, BUT do not forget that someone who is having delusions of grandeur and wants to rule everything might say things that they won't in the end be able to deliver. Just because he said that doesn't mean he can become a god. Plus he's using the Orb to help him. With out that he wouldn't have been able to accomplish a lot of the stuff he has.


Powerwise i'm speculating(not stating as a fact)

Yama>>>Aizen
Shunsui>Aizen
Unohana=Aizen
Aizen>Ukitake


I was reading the manga again where Shunsui and Ukitake were fighting Yama and this frame intrigued me. Look at what Yama says about his students: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/10/

So you need to add

Ukitake+Shunsui>Aizen, possibly even Ukitake+Shunsui>>Aizen

This is very possible. Ukitake seems to have always been sickly but when he fights with Shunsui they can't be beat. Except of course by Yama. :)

If yama got killed by Aizen at Karakura in the next upcoming episodes... I think it will put these topic to rest permanetly...


Seriously what a joke Kubo would be if Aizen can't even win Yama...

I don't think that Aizen is necessarily going to battle with people himself in the upcoming arc. Look at him. He has always used illusions and other people to do his dirty work. He made Gin be a scape goat, he's created tons of Arrancar, and his sword's shikai technique is hiding in an illusion. If he was sooo strong compared to Yama then why would he need all the back up. I don't think that Kubo would be that straight forward with his story. He always throws something surprising in. I do however think that one if not more Captains may be killed in the upcoming arc, not necessarily Yama. We all know that Aizen will be defeated before this manga ends.

I have to agree with you, there was no intent to kill from Yama. As I have said, if he really want to kill people, he would have went Bankai and went all out. I think he was just giving Shunsui and Ukitake a slap on the wrist.

I think he didn't really want to kill his students, so maybe subconsciously he held back. Plus we've only seen the tip of the ice berg with Yama and then there's his Lieutenant that we haven't even seen anything from. He's got to be pretty powerful to be chosen by Yama as well.

But like some are saying, we do have to just wait and see.

[SenpaiRetsu]

I agree with the above statements, plus we need to remember that he established the Gotei 13 and has probably held the Captain-Commander seat since the beginning. You've got to be pretty Dang strong to hold the position for that long.



I agree, Yama was punishing Nanao to put her in her place and make her truly see what she was getting herself into.
I do however think that it is very possible that he can direct his reiatsu wherever he wants to. He's been the Captain-Commander since the beginning of the Gotei 13.



He is very strong, I will give you that, BUT do not forget that someone who is having delusions of grandeur and wants to rule everything might say things that they won't in the end be able to deliver. Just because he said that doesn't mean he can become a god. Plus he's using the Orb to help him. With out that he wouldn't have been able to accomplish a lot of the stuff he has.



I was reading the manga again where Shunsui and Ukitake were fighting Yama and this frame intrigued me. Look at what Yama says about his students: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/10/

So you need to add

Ukitake+Shunsui>Aizen, possibly even Ukitake+Shunsui>>Aizen

This is very possible. Ukitake seems to have always been sickly but when he fights with Shunsui they can't be beat. Except of course by Yama. :)



I don't think that Aizen is necessarily going to battle with people himself in the upcoming arc. Look at him. He has always used illusions and other people to do his dirty work. He made Gin be a scape goat, he's created tons of Arrancar, and his sword's shikai technique is hiding in an illusion. If he was sooo strong compared to Yama then why would he need all the back up. I don't think that Kubo would be that straight forward with his story. He always throws something surprising in. I do however think that one if not more Captains may be killed in the upcoming arc, not necessarily Yama. We all know that Aizen will be defeated before this manga ends.



I think he didn't really want to kill his students, so maybe subconsciously he held back. Plus we've only seen the tip of the ice berg with Yama and then there's his Lieutenant that we haven't even seen anything from. He's got to be pretty powerful to be chosen by Yama as well.

But like some are saying, we do have to just wait and see.

actually his lieutenant is as week as any VC. He got 1 shotted by Ichigo along with Isane and Soi fon's VC. mind you all three were in shikai, and ichigo took all three of them bare handed.

[Freya]

actually his lieutenant is as week as any VC. He got 1 shotted by Ichigo along with Isane and Soi fon's VC. mind you all three were in shikai, and ichigo took all three of them bare handed.

oh yeah, I forgot about that. Well I guess we have seen him "try" to fight. lol

I really wanna see more from the Ukitake/Shunsui duo though. I'm sure they are pretty dang strong apart and fighting together. :)

[SenpaiRetsu]

oh yeah, I forgot about that. Well I guess we have seen him "try" to fight. lol

I really wanna see more from the Ukitake/Shunsui duo though. I'm sure they are pretty dang strong apart and fighting together. :)

agreed like u pointed out it seems like they are an unbeatable team. that means Aizen is going to seperate them to exploit Ukitake's weakness.

[Night Prowler]

Yea I bet there a *****ing tag team!

Really wanna see more of Stark in the big Battle Royale, I hope his release (if Vl's have one) is the shiz! XDD.

[Silhouette]

Wrong. You're twisting what I said.

We know what Hitsugaya is capable of. Aizen one-hit defeated him. Does it matter? From what we've seen of Hitsu. No.

Momo? Vice captain. She was off guard also. Doesn't matter.

Ichigo? Worn down. *points to Chi's post*

Koma? Didn't do much against Zaraki.

Renji? We've seen what he can do, and its not much compared to most captains.

Ukitake and Shunsui have been built up by Yamamoto. If you're going to sit there and say that Yama... wow.

Bottom line. People should stop with the Aizen nonsense. This 'debate' can go on forever, but I don't really care. We all know how Aizen is.

People who don't like him, will call him a coward. People who praise him, will call him smart. Yeah, he's a frickin' genius, but he hasn't done anything worth noting.

[darkhole]

Wow, shunsui and ukitake were built up by Yamamoto. See, the thing is, I know Shunsui and Ukitake r strong, i'm not denying it. u're the 1 denying Aizen's strength. Characters who r strong, I say they're strong and i praise them for it. I'm not biased towards any of them, I use the best logic i can for all of the characters. But wait, what about Shinji vs. Grimmjow? What about Urahara getting his attacked block by Ulquiorra. I mean, Shinji felt the need to put on his mask when he faced grimmjow, he said he wasn't going to hold back. Aizen leveled grimmjow with pure reiatsu. I'll give the guy his props, that was impressive. I mean, was that worth noticing? When Kenpachi owned tousen, i gave the guy his props. When Yamamoto complimented Shunsui and Ukitake, I gave them their props. It seems to me that u're just in denial to the "Main Antagonist's" strength. That alone tells u that the guys in the tope 3, he's the main antagonist. The only reason i'm still commenting is because i'm just trying to understand your logic?? Although I guess u're just biased and can't accept such a simple truth. That the main antagonist in a shounen is 1 of the strongest characters, lol, wtf. Just like the main protagonist starts off weak ass hell but in the end will be the strongest.

[Character]

Koma? Didn't do much against Zaraki.

I really don't think that can be used as a point. They never even got to fight.

[Silhouette]

u're the 1 denying Aizen's strength.

I stopped reading there. If you've seen any of my past posts, I've always stated that I believe Aizen to be high-tier.

BUT!

He's seriously overrated. I'm tired of people saying that he can pwn Yama, or take on both Shunsui and Ukitake like Yama can.

And what do his fans do to try and convince me? List meaningless "feats".

Yes, because Aizen can one-hit KO Hitsugaya, he's oh so god-like. I've been in countless debates on this matter before, and I'm done with it.

Also, use the Enter key. It works wonders.

[/rant]

I'm not bias, btw. Spend more time on the forums, and you'll see some ridiculous nonsense posted every now and then.

Finished reading your post... and all I have to say to the rest is, "No. Just, no."

[Sin]

I really don't think that can be used as a point. They never even got to fight.

We never saw Yama vs Shunsui and Ukitake does that mean they didnt' fight either? :whatevah:

Also keep in mind that he didn't even feel the need to take his eye patch off against two capts... yeah Kumma is soooooooo strong right? :rolleye09

[darkhole]

well i guess if u're ranting then i should:
[/silly]

Lmao, ahh so that's it. U don't believe that the main antagonist can take on shunsui and ukitake like yama can. Or go head to head with Yama. Well i guess we're gonna find out soon enough now aren't we. I could say that I don't believe Yama could drop grimmjow with pure reiatsu like Aizen did. And we'll never know now will we. Until those 2 fight in the future war, because it's bound to happen with both of them in kt like that. I for 1 can't wait, should be sweet. Well i'll put it to u like this.

I don't think Aizen is far greater than Yamamoto, in fact on a different forum i personally ranked him 2nd strongest in bleach right behind Yamamoto. But I do think their powers r very very close, and what will give Aizen the edge is his strategic abilities. But by no means will Aizen just blow through Yama. Their fight will be long and hard like some epic goku/freeza dbz fight.

But as far as Aizen taking on Shunsui and Ukitake like Yama did. I would have to say that from what i've seen from Aizen, knowing that he has at least 2x the reiatsu of a normal captain, knowing that his shikai is ****ing "God-Mode Hax 133" aka "Type God Mode Here and press enter" aka "Complete Hypnosis" and assuming that in this latest chapter it was Aizen's shikai ability that Shunsui saw when he was out walking so he's very susceptible to aizen's shikai, i'd have to say that Aizen could definitely take on Shunsui and Ukitake as well. The mind is the best weapon we have and to be able to control the mind like Aizen can is real power.

But yeah, I agree that Aizen can't just wtf pwn Yamamoto and I'm expecting Aizen to suffer some serious injuries in this up coming fight.

[Rainl]

I agree and everyone as well. Aizen isn't "god". He hasn't fought anyone worth mentioning you and I both know it. He is overhyped. Okay He can block a heavily fatigued Ichigo. Hell any mid-tier captain would've most likely been able to accomplish the same task Aizen did, if they would've encountered ichigo at such a low level, and they were at a 100% easily.

He beat renji, Woopdeeffindoo. Renji is nothing.
Hitsugaya...do I need to continue, autofail and its the truth.
Komamura, Low-tier at best, until proven otherwise.

Shunsui and Ukitake, are on totally different levels then anyone of the opponents he's gone up against, its even stated. What more proof do you need?

God, do I need to talk about Yama, he can take said captains above, who are stated as nearly unmatched, and he can still maintain the upperhand while fighting both consecutively IN SHIKAI. Its pretty self explanatory.

I will give him that he's extremely intelligent, and a great planner, but battlewise, Sorry Aizen fanboys he's MAYBE at Yama's level or a little bit higher than Ukitake/Shunsui.

I just cant stand it when people see him as this almighty god. When he clearly isnt.

[Character]

We never saw Yama vs Shunsui and Ukitake does that mean they didnt' fight either? :whatevah:

Also keep in mind that he didn't even feel the need to take his eye patch off against two capts... yeah Kumma is soooooooo strong right? :rolleye09

But I actually don't think they ended up fighting. Look...

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000149/04.jpg

We know for a fact that Yama and Ukitake and Shunsui fought because Kubo Tite showed them starting. But before Komamura and Zaraki start, they stop and turn.

And Zaraki has the patch on for reason: to make his fights last longer. It has nothing to do with being able to up his power. Its not like Ichigo's vizard mask or a bankai. He takes it off when hes about to die or the opponent has proven themself worthy of his full strength. If the two did ended up fighting, theres nothing saying he wouldn't have taken it off.

Edit: I just read the off-topic post by KholdStare. Ill leave this up for now but I understand if you decide to delete because of off topic issues.

[SenpaiRetsu]

But I actually don't think they ended up fighting. Look...

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000149/04.jpg

We know for a fact that Yama and Ukitake and Shunsui fought because Kubo Tite showed them starting. But before Komamura and Zaraki start, they stop and turn.

And Zaraki has the patch on for reason: to make his fights last longer. It has nothing to do with being able to up his power. Its not like Ichigo's vizard mask or a bankai. He takes it off when hes about to die or the opponent has proven themself worthy of his full strength. If the two did ended up fighting, theres nothing saying he wouldn't have taken it off.

Edit: I just read the off-topic post by KholdStare. Ill leave this up for now but I understand if you decide to delete because of off topic issues.


they didn't fight? looks like Zaraki ownage to me:

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000145/18.jpg


Responding to those who say he hasn't beat anyone worthwhile. he beat Ichigo with one finger. you all seem to think he was so tired that any captain could have done that, i bet you that same attack would have demolished most of the captains save the high tiers.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/17/

no only can he block Ichigo's sword with one finger, his shunpo is so fast he vanished before Renji. Renji isn't that powerful, but he could see Byakuya's movements and Byakuya is one of the faster Captains of the Gotei, H im and Soifon. Aizen moved so fast he had no clue where he was. clearly he has beaten people of some note handily enough. Also people Hitusaya is fail. I agree that he's not strong as far as captains are concerned but in terms of raw speed, no captain should be able to move so fast that another captain can't even see them. Aizen moved so fast that when he charged he was already out for the count. Aizen's move puts Senka to shame in terms of raw speed and we've seen him perform it more than once.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/23/

However we really need to see the hight tiers in action for a good scale. because we've seen shunui stop someone with a finger, but it was Chad so that doesn't count for much. hitsugaya could probably pwn chad with a finger, ok maybe that's overkill but u see the point.

my main evidence for Aizen not being so godly is based mostly on Unohana. Not just because i'm an Unohana fan. but the fact that she knew he was there, and still called him a traitor. She saw exactly what he did to another captain and wasn't the least bit afraid. Also he had Gin with him who is a prodigy himself. A smart captain(which she is) would have peaked in on the situation and then called for back-up from the other captains before she went in. The only reason to walk in alone would be if you were strong enough to do something about it on the spot. Clearly she felt that way. Of course having the feeling u have the ability to do something and actually being able to do it is a very different thing in many cases, see Ichigo and Renji. But they are noobs, she's not a noob, she's the oldest captain except yama. Clearly she was going to open up a can on them. but they had other plans so had to leave.

Look at her face in this pic, she's obviously pissed that "they got away" not relieved

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000171/16.jpg

[Character]

they didn't fight? looks like Zaraki ownage to me:

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000145/18.jpg


http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000171/16.jpg[/SPOILER]

Ownage? Komamura wasn't even using his shikai. This is off topic from this thread too. So I'm just going to stop talking about cuz i dont even remember why i started talking KOma and Zaraki.

[xiphosforr]

i'm gunna have to stick with the whole
*aizen is the best*
theory atm cuz thats the only conclusion i can come to atm

[Zanga]

Ownage? Komamura wasn't even using his shikai. This is off topic from this thread too. So I'm just going to stop talking about cuz i dont even remember why i started talking KOma and Zaraki.

Well you're wrong anyway. Koma, from what we know doesn't have a physical Shikai form, but an ability, or motion so to say.

And Zaraki took both Tousen and Koma's shikai attacks and brushed them off like a joke.

[SenpaiRetsu]

Ownage? Komamura wasn't even using his shikai. This is off topic from this thread too. So I'm just going to stop talking about cuz i dont even remember why i started talking KOma and Zaraki.

He didn't use his shikai? what do u call this?

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000139/12.jpg


He took both of their shikai's and said? that's it? bring out your bankais

[Reyin]

Something to keep in mind with the speed of Aizen, we know from right before he blasts Sajin that he can use his shikai to appear to move instantly, or at least thats what is implied with the line "Kyouka Suigetsu's 'complete hypnosis' is absolutely flawless." I'm not doubting that he's fast, just that we can't say for sure how fast. It's possible that the other times he appeared to move instantly were because of his sword's ability. Like I said, I'm sure he is fast, we just don't have an accurate gauge.

[SenpaiRetsu]

Something to keep in mind with the speed of Aizen, we know from right before he blasts Sajin that he can use his shikai to appear to move instantly, or at least thats what is implied with the line "Kyouka Suigetsu's 'complete hypnosis' is absolutely flawless." I'm not doubting that he's fast, just that we can't say for sure how fast. It's possible that the other times he appeared to move instantly were because of his sword's ability. Like I said, I'm sure he is fast, we just don't have an accurate gauge.


Your right, due to the haxxness of his shikai it's hard for us to really know what Aizen's fighting capabilities really are. I'm sure they're excellent but just how excellent we can't know because half the time we don't even know if we're looking at the real Aizen until somone is on the ground bloody.

[Sin]

OMFG!!!

@Sempai: Let's look at in a perspective you can understand time wise. Ichigo does bankai training and finishes that not having time to rest he goes and faces sokyokou (firery bird) then destroys the execution grounds. Then fights three vc and gets beaten physically by Byakuya's bankai, then releases his own bankai which crushes his bones severely loweiring his power. Then he pours the last of his remaining reiatsu into the last attack against Byakuya and shortly collapses. A few mins later he rescues renji from Aizen by stoping the sword barely then he attacks aizen and aizen admits that Ichigo's pushing well past his limits and that he's extremely weak. HOW IS THAT AN EXAMPLE THAT GLORIFIES AIZEN???

[SenpaiRetsu]

OMFG!!!

@Sempai: Let's look at in a perspective you can understand time wise. Ichigo does bankai training and finishes that not having time to rest he goes and faces sokyokou (firery bird) then destroys the execution grounds. Then fights three vc and gets beaten physically by Byakuya's bankai, then releases his own bankai which crushes his bones severely loweiring his power. Then he pours the last of his remaining reiatsu into the last attack against Byakuya and shortly collapses. A few mins later he rescues renji from Aizen by stoping the sword barely then he attacks aizen and aizen admits that Ichigo's pushing well past his limits and that he's extremely weak. HOW IS THAT AN EXAMPLE THAT GLORIFIES AIZEN???

I was just playing devil's advocate, i started the thread because i don't think Aizen is as godly as some make him out to be. I agree that Ichigo is not ownage he's definitely not weak. but your right that he wasn't even at close to a hundred percent, not that 100% bankai ichigo would have made a difference because without his mask, he's got no chance whatsoever of putting a scratch on Aizen. hell his strongest attack couldn't even make Ulq bleed and Aizen is supposedly way above him.

But still to be able to stop anybody's bankai with one finger is impressive in itself. even stopping Hitsugaya's bankai with a finger would be impressive. But like i said we don't know if the other high tiers could do that. i don't see unohana pwning ichigo with one finger, but we don't know. I can definitely see Yama doing it, and maybe Shunsui. and of course any VL espada.

[Nowitzki]

Best example of how Aizen proves his strength without using his Shikai is the fact that he is able to bring an unreleased Grimmjow to his knees simply by focusing his reiatsu while he is sitting and drinking tea. Don't forget that in order for Aizen to use the Hougyoku, he must have twice the strength of Shinigami Captain, which proves that he has at least that much reiatsu. The two facts are a great indicator of his strength. He is not as weak as some suggest, it is the fact that he is so powerful that makes his Shikai seem so effective. So far, we have yet to see any of the other Captains bring an Espada to their knees simply using their reiatsu, although they have varying power levels.

Take a look back at -107, where Shinji catches Aizen spying on his conversation with Urahara. Although not confirmed, the shatter marks around Aizen suggest that he did use Kyouka Suigetsu, which shows that his Shikai is beatable to an extent. We don't know if he has improved it since that time, or that no one else has had the audacity to shatter it as Shinji did. Either way, at one point in time, it has been proven that it is in fact, beatable, and that those who fall for it simply cannot find a way around it, turning them into simple play things for Aizen. If someone is able to beat the Shikai, then you have two examples of why Aizen is so powerful listed earlier in my post, and quite frankly, one would still be 'screwed' despite having accomplished a great feat in fighting despite Aizen using his Shikai.

[Undying]

Best example of how Aizen proves his strength without using his Shikai is the fact that he is able to bring an unreleased Grimmjow to his knees simply by focusing his reiatsu while he is sitting and drinking tea. Don't forget that in order for Aizen to use the Hougyoku, he must have twice the strength of Shinigami Captain, which proves that he has at least that much reiatsu. The two facts are a great indicator of his strength. He is not as weak as some suggest, it is the fact that he is so powerful that makes his Shikai seem so effective. So far, we have yet to see any of the other Captains bring an Espada to their knees simply using their reiatsu, although they have varying power levels.
I'll add to this. Some people claim that Grimmjow was put under illusion by Kyouka Suigetsu. This is unfortunately incorrect.

Kyouka Suigetsu works on the five sense. Reiatsu sensing is not one of the five senses, it is the 6th or 7th sense (depending if "seeing ghosts" constitutes as "sense" and if reiatsu sensing is an evolution of that sense or a separate sense on its own).

Therefore, Grimmjow was not under illusion, and therefore, Aizen had the reiatsu to bring him down to his knees without even trying.

Take a look back at -107, where Shinji catches Aizen spying on his conversation with Urahara. Although not confirmed, the shatter marks around Aizen suggest that he did use Kyouka Suigetsu, which shows that his Shikai is beatable to an extent. We don't know if he has improved it since that time, or that no one else has had the audacity to shatter it as Shinji did. Either way, at one point in time, it has been proven that it is in fact, beatable, and that those who fall for it simply cannot find a way around it, turning them into simple play things for Aizen. If someone is able to beat the Shikai, then you have two examples of why Aizen is so powerful listed earlier in my post, and quite frankly, one would still be 'screwed' despite having accomplished a great feat in fighting despite Aizen using his Shikai.
As I recall, Captains and Vice-captains were not permitted to carry their swords within Seireitei and to release shikais. Due to that, Aizen would not have been able to use his shikai... since his sword wasn't on him. And if he did use it, it's a breach of the rules. Now, Aizen, the knightly, honorary Aizen, would never break a rule.

Besides, of course it's beatable, reiatsu sensing is what it takes. The only problem is that in a battle, Aizen would be releasing his reiatsu all over the place, and it's difficult to spot the origin of a sea around you.

Metaphors. So clumsy.

[Nowitzki]

As I recall, Captains and Vice-captains were not permitted to carry their swords within Seireitei and to release shikais. Due to that, Aizen would not have been able to use his shikai... since his sword wasn't on him. And if he did use it, it's a breach of the rules. Now, Aizen, the knightly, honorary Aizen, would never break a rule.

Prohibited release of Zanpakutou, i know is a rule, but I don't recall a rule that prohibits the carrying of Zanpakutou's in general for those in those groups?

Either way, you are correct in your sarcasm that this rule would not stop Aizen from using Kyouka Suigetsu. Also, there is the fact that Aizen appears at the beginning of the most recent chapter in front of Shunsui. While this could be Aizen himself, I highly doubt it. Most likely he used Kyouka Suigetsu to create an illusion of him roaming around. Obviously, this is done to create an alibi for Aizen, as Shunsui will recall seeing him, which is a safety net for him, as the future Vaizards will most likely claim that Aizen was the one who attacked them. If this is correct, it would also justify Aizen's use of Zanpakutou to spy. Why else would Shinji remark that Aizen is scary?

[SenpaiRetsu]

Prohibited release of Zanpakutou, i know is a rule, but I don't recall a rule that prohibits the carrying of Zanpakutou's in general for those in those groups?

Either way, you are correct in your sarcasm that this rule would not stop Aizen from using Kyouka Suigetsu. Also, there is the fact that Aizen appears at the beginning of the most recent chapter in front of Shunsui. While this could be Aizen himself, I highly doubt it. Most likely he used Kyouka Suigetsu to create an illusion of him roaming around. Obviously, this is done to create an alibi for Aizen, as Shunsui will recall seeing him, which is a safety net for him, as the future Vaizards will most likely claim that Aizen was the one who attacked them. If this is correct, it would also justify Aizen's use of Zanpakutou to spy. Why else would Shinji remark that Aizen is scary?


I agree i think that, the Aizen that Shunsui saw was an illusion. but it has to make you wonder, how hax is Aizen's shikai? can an illusion actually react if he's in a completely different place? What if Shunsui would have called him over to talk to him, or even worse went there to speak to him? What would have happened? how does aizen control what his illusion is doing if he can't even see it? it's drives the mind crazy. so maybe it wasn't an illusion because he could have risked being discovered. or maybe he was in a place far away from there but in a distance to see it and control it.

[Sin]

@Nowitzki: Aizen said that Shinji was scary

@Undying: I think the capts always have their sword on them and aren't permitted to release their Zanpakuto without permission or for a good cause. However, I would like to propose a question about the meaning of Ukitake's statement to Byakuya on this page: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/116/41/
Ukitake made it seem like releasing your shikai in certain place in seretei is forbidden not all of seretei.

[Nowitzki]

@Nowitzki: Aizen said that Shinji was scary

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.2/19/

Aizen says Shinji is scary, but Shinji has the last remark commenting that it is Aizen who is the one that is scary

[Undying]

Prohibited release of Zanpakutou, i know is a rule, but I don't recall a rule that prohibits the carrying of Zanpakutou's in general for those in those groups?
I'm too lazy to check, but I think Yamamoto said that they were now allowed to carry and release. Oh well, either way it matters little. We all know Aizen doesn't give a damn about the laws of Soul Society.

Either way, you are correct in your sarcasm that this rule would not stop Aizen from using Kyouka Suigetsu. Also, there is the fact that Aizen appears at the beginning of the most recent chapter in front of Shunsui. While this could be Aizen himself, I highly doubt it. Most likely he used Kyouka Suigetsu to create an illusion of him roaming around. Obviously, this is done to create an alibi for Aizen, as Shunsui will recall seeing him, which is a safety net for him, as the future Vaizards will most likely claim that Aizen was the one who attacked them. If this is correct, it would also justify Aizen's use of Zanpakutou to spy. Why else would Shinji remark that Aizen is scary?
Well, Aizen was shown to be wielding his sword when he showed up before Shinji, so he's probably using its ability to make an alibi for himself (and therefore Shunsui is probably not sensing any reiatsu from the illusion, but dismisses it). That's why Shinji said Aizen was scary, probably, because his shikai creates an illusion so perfect that it could not be found.

But what I doubt is that Aizen would use his sword's ability to spy on Urahara and Shinji: 1., did he ever tell anyone its true application? and 2., Aizen is putting a facade of being the good guy, so he would most likely keep the rules... at least, where he can be seen.
I agree i think that, the Aizen that Shunsui saw was an illusion. but it has to make you wonder, how hax is Aizen's shikai? can an illusion actually react if he's in a completely different place? What if Shunsui would have called him over to talk to him, or even worse went there to speak to him? What would have happened? how does aizen control what his illusion is doing if he can't even see it? it's drives the mind crazy. so maybe it wasn't an illusion because he could have risked being discovered. or maybe he was in a place far away from there but in a distance to see it and control it.
It is an illusion. Illusions, by nature, act as we think them to act. For example, if you watched House, whenever a person hallucinates (such as when House was shot at the end of season 2), the illusions act just the way he thinks they will act. Illusions are pretty hax. The only thing that's wrong with the illusion is that it does not have any reiatsu (remember, Aizen said he can manipulate the five senses, not 6).
@Nowitzki: Aizen said that Shinji was scary

@Undying: I think the capts always have their sword on them and aren't permitted to release their Zanpakuto without permission or for a good cause. However, I would like to propose a question about the meaning of Ukitake's statement to Byakuya on this page: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/116/41/
Ukitake made it seem like releasing your shikai in certain place in seretei is forbidden not all of seretei.
Ukitake said that releasing the sword in front of a "something or other" was not permitted. Seeing as Yamamoto had to lift the ban on releasing swords, I think it refers to specifically death-row prisoners in Ukitake's statement. 'Course, I have no idea what they are babbling on about...

[Sin]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.2/19/

Aizen says Shinji is scary, but Shinji has the last remark commenting that it is Aizen who is the one that is scaryOh crap... i completely over looked that part. Thanks!

Ukitake said that releasing the sword in front of a "something or other" was not permitted. Seeing as Yamamoto had to lift the ban on releasing swords, I think it refers to specifically death-row prisoners in Ukitake's statement. 'Course, I have no idea what they are babbling on about...Yeah i dunno either, its pretty vague given the situation that surrounds it. But it makes me think that releasing your Zapakuto in certain places its forbidden while in other places its okay if you have a good reason.

The reason why i am curious is the possible occurance between him and Aizen, there are people who refute the idea that it maybe Aizen shikai that Shinji tore through, and they think its a kidoh he uses because "you can't release your zanpakuto in seretei. without being punished"

[Undying]

The reason why i am curious is the possible occurance between him and Aizen, there are people who refute the idea that it maybe Aizen shikai that Shinji tore through, and they think its a kidoh he uses because "you can't release your zanpakuto in seretei. without being punished"


Nah, that's not a valid reason, IMO. I think Shinji wouldn't berate Aizen for using his sword openly. The reason I believe Aizen was now using his sword is because he kept its ability secret - and if he kept it secret and lied to everyone, he wouldn't use it, and Shinji wouldn't know for what to look, yes?

Of course, the possibility exists that Aizen said his sword uses water stuff to make images and apparitions, so maybe Aizen was using his sword, only was using a low-powered illusion to make it easy to spot.

[Sin]

@ Anyone who thinks that Ichigo was one shot by Aizen: Ichigo was depleted of power, as we quite clearly see from the fact that what'shisface, Nnoitora's subordinate, was kicking his ass. I suppose you could argue the point that what'shisface is actually way more powerful than Ichigo's bankai, except he got raped with a single attack from Kenpachi, which doesn't make much sense... I believe common sense dictates that attacking any opponent who has been exhausted and wounded heavily minutes before is not a feat to brag about.
I told you i was going to quote you for this... Thanks, the rest isn't directed at you. But i have no doubt you may retort.

So to mention with the fact that Aizen always makes an appearances after the fact when his potential enemies are weakened and incapable of fighting him effectively, proves that he in fact is really a coward. The only people he ever really one shotted were Hitsugaya and Sajin and Sajin is an ehh cause he got back up and didn't even need to be healed and he was previously fighting Zaraki and he was fighting Zaraki don't fool yourself otherwise.

[Nowitzki]

How does it make Aizen a coward for him to defeat every opponent that tried to stop him on his way to Sougyoku hill, except Unohana? Aizen defeated Hitsugaya, Ichigo, Renji, and Komamura, all who tried to stop him from obtaining the Hougyoku from Rukia. As for Unohana, I don't call him a coward for that, I call that having a great deal of sense. You can even see in -108 how Shunsui is afraid of getting on her bad side, so obviously she is very strong. Aizen is on a limited time line and had to hurry, and he couldn't take precious minutes in his schedule to fight Unohana. As for everyone else he fought, why should it reflect poorly on him that he fought them? Aizen didn't pick who his opponents were on Sougyoku hill. He did what he had to do to get the Hougyoku and escape. He didn't go out of his way to defeat any random opponents, but defeated he ones that did stand in his way.

[Rainl]

Yea I can't believe Im gonna go with Aizen abit here. I agree with Nowitzki. It was merely bad timing at Sougyoku hill, potential threats were there, he didn't have the adequate amount of time, he had to dispose of them. He didn't exactly have time to sit there and say "Hey guys how about I go and get some senzu beans for ya, then we can do this."

As of for Unohana, yes that was a cowardly move. Aizen knew he would have trouble. Ill admit it was indeed cowardly, but a very wise decision. Same goes for Shinji, I still believe he would've given Aizen trouble if encountered him at 100%

[Nowitzki]

Aizen could always need Unohana for some part of his plan in the future..

Why do you think Aizen didn't give orders for Ulquiorra to kill Urahara (and Yoruichi) even though he informed him of their presence the first time Ulquiorra came to Karakura to investigate Ichigo? Aizen knew he would need Urahara later to bring Shinigami into Hueco Mundo.

[Rainl]

Aizen could always need Unohana for some part of his plan in the future..

Why do you think Aizen didn't give orders for Ulquiorra to kill Urahara (and Yoruichi) even though he informed him of their presence the first time Ulquiorra came to Karakura to investigate Ichigo? Aizen knew he would need Urahara later to bring Shinigami into Hueco Mundo.

Maybe true, but do you really think Ulquiorra could actually take on Yoruichi and Urahara? Serious question, no sarcasm intended.

[Character]

Maybe true, but do you really think Ulquiorra could actually take on Yoruichi and Urahara? Serious question, no sarcasm intended.

I dont know if he could take Urahara let alone both. He's crazy strong but Urahara toyed with the 10th not even using bankai. Same with yourichi without her shunko and the fact that its assumed she probably has zanpakuto.

[Nowitzki]

Nobody knows the outcome of that battle. Ulquiorra has a release, Urahara has a Bankai. The point is that clearly there was an intent to keep those who were left unscathed, unscathed.

[Rainl]

I dont know if he could take Urahara let alone both. He's crazy strong but Urahara toyed with the 10th not even using bankai. Same with yourichi without her shunko and the fact that its assumed she probably has zanpakuto.


While that maybe true and I do agree to some extent Urahara would more than likely give him a run, and potentially be the victor. Ulquiorra single handedly dropped a full power Vaizard Ichigo with just as little effort as Urahara if not less. Take in Mind Ichigo also without the Vaizard, bankai alone, was easily beating the 10th espada.

We can only speculate so much.

[Nowitzki]

But you can't use Ichigo as a basis for the speculation.

Shikai Ichigo beat Zaraki.. and Zaraki beat Nnoitra, but Ichigo couldn't even come close to touching him in Bankai.

It's all based on fighting styles.. speed, strength, special abilities.. these are all factors that could turn the tide of battle. That is what keeps Bleach from being simple math. Everyone fights differently, unlike in Dragon Ball Z where it was basically clear how you could rank individuals.

[Reyin]

But you can't use Ichigo as a basis for the speculation.

It's all based on fighting styles.. speed, strength, special abilities.. these are all factors that could turn the tide of battle. That is what keeps Bleach from being simple math. Everyone fights differently, unlike in Dragon Ball Z where it was basically clear how you could rank individuals.

Ya using the main character is never a good basis =x But anyways it would be interesting if there were power levels, but thats part of the fun of this series, speculation =)

[Nowitzki]

You can rank fighters with the same fighting style.. like melee fighters who rely on strength and don't use any techniques such as shunpo/sonido, kidou, etc.. With that in mind, you could say Zaraki > Nnoitra > Ikkaku.. but you couldn't put Hitsugaya in there.. because even if he is weaksauce, he has the ability to freeze his opponent.

[Rainl]

But you can't use Ichigo as a basis for the speculation.

Shikai Ichigo beat Zaraki.. and Zaraki beat Nnoitra, but Ichigo couldn't even come close to touching him in Bankai.

It's all based on fighting styles.. speed, strength, special abilities.. these are all factors that could turn the tide of battle. That is what keeps Bleach from being simple math. Everyone fights differently, unlike in Dragon Ball Z where it was basically clear how you could rank individuals.


Using Ichigo as a measuring tool is never right, I admit. Still you have to realize Ichigo was completely worn out, and was pushed near his limit against Grimmjow. Ofc he wasn't going to last against Nnoitora who was in prime shape. Whether the same outcome would've happened if he'd been at 100%, who knows. Although I Highly doubt ichigo would have been beaten so easily.

[Sin]

Aizen defeated Hitsugaya, Ichigo, Renji, and Komamura, all who tried to stop him from obtaining the Hougyoku from Rukia.This is exactly what i was trying to say, Ichigo and renji just got their respective asses handed to em, as it stood an 8th seat could have wooped thier asses if they tried. That's not a defeat. Plus Sajin was fighting zaraki and ran before epically failing so he cant be any higher then Hitsugaya plus homedog was lost in memory lane when he got beat.
As for Unohana, I don't call him a coward for that, I call that having a great deal of sense. You can even see in -108 how Shunsui is afraid of getting on her bad side, so obviously she is very strong.Your proving my point, if he was so hax and strong why not just obliterate her like Hitsugaya? Unless your willing to admit that Hitsugaya is the weakest link of the Gotei
Aizen is on a limited time line and had to hurry, and he couldn't take precious minutes in his schedule to fight Unohana. Am so tired of hearing that crap excuse, it is really just crap. Yamamotto was pumping out so much reiatsu in close proximity to Shunsui and Ukitake another fight going on would have made little difference to anyone else.
As for everyone else he fought, why should it reflect poorly on him that he fought them? I only bring it up because everyone uses that as a way of saying he's so ubber! Yes i admit his shikai is hax and he is skilled but am not really impressed by the people he defeats. Everyone in their mom wants to say how he stopped ichigo's sword with one finger is retarded.
Aizen didn't pick who his opponents were on Sougyoku hill. He did what he had to do to get the Hougyoku and escape. He didn't go out of his way to defeat any random opponents, but defeated he ones that did stand in his way.I agree but that doesn't make ubber for it

[Nowitzki]

This is exactly what i was trying to say, Ichigo and renji just got their respective asses handed to em, as it stood an 8th seat could have wooped thier asses if they tried. That's not a defeat. Plus Sajin was fighting zaraki and ran before epically failing so he cant be any higher then Hitsugaya plus homedog was lost in memory lane when he got beat.

They were in his way. He had to get rid of them. I don't see what you are trying to argue. Just because something was in his way and he gets rid of it, doesn't make him any weaker. He's not trying to prove himself to people, he's trying to get the Hougyoku.

Your proving my point, if he was so hax and strong why not just obliterate her like Hitsugaya? Unless your willing to admit that Hitsugaya is the weakest link of the Gotei

If you reread my earlier arguments, I talk about that Aizen knows Unohana is not weak. She is one of the strongest Captains, as hinted by several different points in the manga. He knows she has to heal Hitsugaya and Hinamori, and he needs to get the Hougyoku. Why would he fight her for absolutely no reason, when he could just escape like he did and get the Hougyoku. He couldn't risk more Shinigami regrouping. This doesn't prove that Aizen is a coward, it just proves that he is a tactician that knows there is no point for useless bloodshed. Unohana couldn't follow him and wasn't attacking him, he could just go around her. Hitsugaya, Komamura, Ichigo, and Renji were all attacking him, the last three on Sougyoku kill. He had no choice but to fight them off.


Am so tired of hearing that crap excuse, it is really just crap. Yamamotto was pumping out so much reiatsu in close proximity to Shunsui and Ukitake another fight going on would have made little difference to anyone else.

It only takes one person to notice to make a difference.

I only bring it up because everyone uses that as a way of saying he's so ubber! Yes i admit his shikai is hax and he is skilled but am not really impressed by the people he defeats. Everyone in their mom wants to say how he stopped ichigo's sword with one finger is retarded.

So you aren't impressed with Aizen bringing Grimmjow to his knees only by focusing his reiatsu while he sat in a chair drinking tea. I don't recall Grimmjow being a Hitsugaya-caliber pushover.

I agree but that doesn't make ubber for it

[/QUOTE]

It doesn't take away from his strength either. Just proves he's stronger than those individuals. Doesn't make him weaker for any reason.

[Rainl]

It doesn't take away from his strength either. Just proves he's stronger than those individuals. Doesn't make him weaker for any reason.

Although it also doesn't make him out to be on such a level as everyone seems to think.

[Nowitzki]

Although it also doesn't make him out to be on such a level as everyone seems to think.

Yes, but also my point suggests that there is no reason for people NOT to think that he is on that level which 'everyone seems to think.'

It's a circular argument right now. Simply not enough proof.

[diamondedge]

Maybe true, but do you really think Ulquiorra could actually take on Yoruichi and Urahara? Serious question, no sarcasm intended.
Erm, do you actually believ that canon fodder is a valid comparison of his strength? Yammy is the weakest Espada, my honest opinion is that most captains except Hitsugaya would oneshit him.

Considering the captains have disposed of Espada with realite ease wafter we were given the "om ghey're unstoppable" image, they got their asses served.

While Ulquiorra, he is Aizen's pet, and he displayed quite different form of power from all of hose before.

To be able to block a full vaizard attack with bare hands, I do not believe Urahara would have disposed of Ulquiorra so easily, because Urahara, and the only interaction between Urahara and Ulquiorra is when Urahara fired Benihime and was obviously surprised when his attack was so easily blocked. And Urahara nad no way of knowing Ulquiorra is 4th Espada and Yammi is 4th, so "ne didn't go all out" is a bit moot.

But then again, if Urahara (who is someone Aizen is clearly cautions about) couldn't take down 4th then LOL, who would have taken the other 3?
Shinsiu and Ukitake clearly aren't the strongest given latest evidence, plus there is Ukitake's ilness.

I'm about 50/50 in the whole matter, I think the reason Aizen "fears" Urahara so much isn't because of his attack power, but because of his intelligence and very good sense of power, since he won't engage himself in a fight he can't win.

So bottom line, no, I don't think Ulquiorra could take them both, but there is a pretty good chance he would nail both of them individually.

Aizen? Not really, unless his overall abilities are even more hax than Aizens. I really don't see him gigai trick working when he is facing Kyouka Suigetsu.

[Undying]

[/INDENT]So to mention with the fact that Aizen always makes an appearances after the fact when his potential enemies are weakened and incapable of fighting him effectively, proves that he in fact is really a coward. The only people he ever really one shotted were Hitsugaya and Sajin and Sajin is an ehh cause he got back up and didn't even need to be healed and he was previously fighting Zaraki and he was fighting Zaraki don't fool yourself otherwise.

How does that make him a coward? He was smart, just like every other proper strategist would. As to his enemies...

Hitsugaya was perfectly healthy and still got one-shotted. Komamura wasn't fighting Zaraki, they stopped, and Ichigo quite clearly states there's a massive difference in power between them. Ichigo was healed by Inoue, so an unknown amount of power was restored to him.

There's no cowardice in tactics and tricks... unless of course, they are everything you've got, and in Aizen's case, that's hardly everything. He's got an impressive amount of power under his sleeve, as he clearly demonstrates by bringing down Grimmjow (or bankai Ichigo, if you will) down to his knees with a glance. Oh, and the whole "two times the power of a a captain" thing.

Although it also doesn't make him out to be on such a level as everyone seems to think.
What level is that? Twice the power of a captain sounds high enough to me...

[SenpaiRetsu]

Erm, do you actually believ that canon fodder is a valid comparison of his strength? Yammy is the weakest Espada, my honest opinion is that most captains except Hitsugaya would oneshit him.

Considering the captains have disposed of Espada with realite ease wafter we were given the "om ghey're unstoppable" image, they got their asses served.

While Ulquiorra, he is Aizen's pet, and he displayed quite different form of power from all of hose before.

To be able to block a full vaizard attack with bare hands, I do not believe Urahara would have disposed of Ulquiorra so easily, because Urahara, and the only interaction between Urahara and Ulquiorra is when Urahara fired Benihime and was obviously surprised when his attack was so easily blocked. And Urahara nad no way of knowing Ulquiorra is 4th Espada and Yammi is 4th, so "ne didn't go all out" is a bit moot.

But then again, if Urahara (who is someone Aizen is clearly cautions about) couldn't take down 4th then LOL, who would have taken the other 3?
Shinsiu and Ukitake clearly aren't the strongest given latest evidence, plus there is Ukitake's ilness.

I'm about 50/50 in the whole matter, I think the reason Aizen "fears" Urahara so much isn't because of his attack power, but because of his intelligence and very good sense of power, since he won't engage himself in a fight he can't win.

So bottom line, no, I don't think Ulquiorra could take them both, but there is a pretty good chance he would nail both of them individually.

Aizen? Not really, unless his overall abilities are even more hax than Aizens. I really don't see him gigai trick working when he is facing Kyouka Suigetsu.

I agree, i don't think that Ulq could beat both of those ex-captains alone. But i have to say based only on what we've seen so far of Yoruichi that she lacks the attack power to do much to Ulq, she'd need her zanpakuto, Yoruichi hasn't displayed anything even remotely close in power to a KGT from Vaizard Ichigo.

Urahara that's questionable, even though Ulq flicked off Benihime's shikai, do you think anyone's shiki could ever have any effect on the 4th level espada? Maybe only yama could possibly some sort of damage while still in shikai so we can't show that as a sign of weakness of Urahara.

As for Aizen, i tink we'll have a better gauage as to how they match up in the next chapter if they actually fight. but it seems doubtful they will fight it's just way too hax. with Tousen's hax bankai on top of Kyouka Suigetsu, that's just not even right. i can't think of any person that could stand a chance against that. Aizen is lazy so u know he'd have Gin and Tosen fight urahara before he actually does anything. he'll just come and clean up the mess.

[Sin]

How does that