The CB Parliamentary Proposal

[Artemis]

The Parliament of Club Bleach

The House of Divisions

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Includes:
1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th Division
Espada
Vaizard
Quincy
C46

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Reason For Proposal:

To allow non staffing members to have a say in issues presented by choice by staff and other MPs, to give an official view and say on behalf of such a group. Allows Divisions to have a more central positioning within CB in general and increases its reasons of existence allowing the divisions to be a more sought after group.

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Membership:

Common Members of Parliament (CMP)
Total Number: 48
Source: The 48 consists of 3 CMPs per division. Each division is allowed to elect the CMPs however they choose, though they would advised certain guidelines to follow, such as types of people to select, etc.

Leading Members of Parliament (LMP)
Total Number: 04
Source: Four Elected From C46

Keeper Of The House (KH)
Total Number: 02
Source: Any Member Elected By Admins

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Physical Parliament Structure:

The Parliament of Club Bleach
|-- The House of Divisions
|--- The Hansard Archives
|---- The Parliamentary Lounge

The House of Divisions:
Central Parliamentary Discussion Hall.
Features all active discussed issues.
Allows MPs to actively formally discuss brought up issues.

The Hansard Archives:
Features all concluded and sealed issues.
Contains list of previous stated issues.

The Parliamentary Lounge:
Informal Discussion Hall.
Allows Private and Open Thread Discussions.

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Permitted Personnel And Functions

Common & Leading MPs
Function: To discuss for and represent the general bulk of members of Club Bleach. Tasked with stating opinions, views and ideas for issues brought up by admins and other staff members. Idealistically, they would aid staff members in planning and input, along with state new issues and problems that they are feeling are needed to be brought up.

Keeper Of The House
Function: To maintain the forum of the Parliament of Club Bleach and to ensure that movement and processes within the House of Divisions is being carried out properly and efficiently. Tasked with moderating all active issues and archiving them and list them when they are fully concluded. Also tasked with keeping track of upcoming issues and discussions within the Parliamentary Forums.

Club Bleach Staff Members
Function: Outside the Parliamentary Forums, their function is obvious and remains the same. Within The Parliament of Club Bleach, they are tasked with bringing up new issues and overrule MPs, including Leading MPs. They have the power and ability to state their intentions, opinions and discredit MPs freely within the House of Divisions.

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Other:

Yes, there are full made processes and more information available. We ask for comments, opinions and support if you feel it is worth to be given too.

The entire system of the parliament has been created, including positioning within the forums and given powers to the MPs and other members.

It is assured that the staffers are still the highest form of power in CB, and that MPs have no real enacting power within CB if staffers reject the issue conclusions entirely.

Issues can be brought up by any member within Parliament. Also members from outside can bring up issues from the outside but they must be then brought up by a parliament member to be discussed. This will allow the regular members to have a say, but their ideas filtered by Parliament before it ever gets to the "floor".

-----------------------------------------

We've asked the opinion on multiple members of CB for input, so we tried to make it nice.

There's two of us you can shoot down along with the proposal.
You can start now, staffers.

[Alerane]

I like the idea, it would be a good representation of what a majority of loyal forumers want to address and change.

[Asuka]

This is a good idea. Why?

First it accomplishes some of the things I want to see within the gotei: Participation beyond contest and interaction with each other.

Sure we interact with each around the forum, but as divisions all we do is talk smack to each other when a contest is posted. With this, being in a division won't just give you a place to grow close to people, but hold some level of responsibility to the forum.

2: When a staff member/c46 member post an idea and want opinions instead of seeing a bunch of posts saying 'I like this idea' they can give the task to the CMPs, who will get the results from their divisions and then post the majority decision.

This will help for speedier decision making in an important idea, less spam, and fewer arguments and flames.

[Pyramus]

I fully agree with this idea! This Parliment will help us make better decisions for CB and it's members. Plus, we will have the peoples word included, not just the admins decision!

[TuRm0iL]

This is a very good idea!
Giving more power of speech to the loyal peons is always a great way to promote forum happiness (:

[nx6]

The idea is completely redundant with what C46 is. If anything, C46 is the Parliament, and if there's anything wrong it's that they are not democratically elected.

[Sarteck]

I don't know... Why would we need this when we have a Gotei headed by your Captains with the C46 as the Shadow Behind The Throne?

Guess I can extrapolate a bit on what I see the Gotei as... A smoothly running machine whose functions are regulated by 13 head figures. When the machine needs maintenance or external input, the Central 46 steps in. The machine exists for the betterment of Club Bleach in general.

This proposed Parliament largely mimics the existing structure. Rather than having it this way, communication with your Captain (and his/her communication with Central 46, in turn) can (and should, in my opinion) accomplish the same objectives.

Mind you, this is merely my opinion, not any kind of "cease and desist" order. :P

[Analog]

The idea is completely redundant with what C46 is. If anything, C46 is the Parliament, and if there's anything wrong it's that they are not democratically elected.
I don't think the main point to this is that they are "democratically" elected, its more to make sure it's active and willing participants.

Look we can both agree that currently the whole Gotei project has some flaws at the moment, sure C46 is the current Parliament in a sense, but this doesn't take away their power this just gives the members a chance to give input and make decisions to help the site as a whole. Why not make something that has meaning to be a part of? Currently being in a division means nothing other then you get a private section for you and a few select others, why not make the divisions special again by giving them some power. Just because 3 members from a division are elected, doesn't mean they can't discuss the happenings within their division. This will give the Gotei even more purpose since it is currently lacking.

[Decado]

I already made my points clear to Scorch (Artemis) over msn, so I'll present the same views here.

The idea is completely redundant with what C46 is. If anything, C46 is the Parliament, and if there's anything wrong it's that they are not democratically elected.
As quoted.

We already have all the avenues necessary for members to express what they want:

- Suggestions thread (for whole forum)

- Suggestion for C46

- Contest Prize Suggestions

- Captains Corner: This should already serve as a way for members of a division to discuss any issues they have and raise it in the Captain's Corner, where other Captains can discuss the issue and take it further if needed. It's not our fault if it's being used purely for social purposes, that just underlines that there's nothing to present or discuss.

Further, that's what C46 is for.


If all else fails, you can PM an admin, a S-Mod, a C46 to bring up any issue.

There is no "CORE" reason to have this. There isn't really anything to discuss.

You may say: "it makes it easier for people to express their opinions"

1. What opinions? If there are flaws, present them as I said above, to all the options.

2. It doesn't make it more accessible. In fact, it's the opposite, when you limit it to only 3 members who can represent their entire division. The way it is now allows everyone to have a say in whatever they want, instead of narrowing a division's representative to only 3 members, who have to speak FOR the others.


This proposed Parliament largely mimics the existing structure. Rather than having it this way, communication with your Captain (and his/her communication with Central 46, in turn) can (and should, in my opinion) accomplish the same objectives.
QFT

[Ai]

- interesting
- way too complicated
- All the proposal is doing at the moment is proposing adding more steps to the chain of decision within the forum thereby lengthening the amount of time it'll take to get anything done
- this is an Anime forum and not a country.

Gotei project already does this by allowing the staff to take more consideration of a gotei project members words then a regular member.

Also if people have problems on the forum they should be going to the mod of the section they have problems in not a random parliament member, Or if they're in a division they should be going to their captain.


Also the suggestion thread already does all of this. Someone suggests something other people say I like it or not, a staff member questions the idea with others being able to put in their input or not.

This is just a whole lot of complication.

But interesting.

[Analog]

It seems to me that you guys are interpreting this as "a group of people to help decide on issues with the Gotei Project." But that's not it. It is for the whole forum as a whole. This doesn't just pertain to one section just because divisions are involved, it relates to the entire forum.

[Ai]

It seems to me that you guys are interpreting this as "a group of people to help decide on issues with the Gotei Project." But that's not it. It is for the whole forum as a whole. This doesn't just pertain to one section just because divisions are involved, it relates to the entire forum.

Suggestion thread does it for the whole forum.

The ranked structure of this suggestion suggests that Div members etc have a higher quality of importance in the decision making which they already do as their opinions are noted more then an ordinary members.

[Sarteck]

I'm not against anyone wanting to make an informal Parliament among the members interested. If it gains in popularity, perhaps it could go further. Or not, depending. :)

[Artemis]

Well, Sarteck.
The entire parliament structure is only to ensure that it does have some structure to rely on if things get messy.

There will be no preceedings or formal arrangements.
As it has been said.

We're an online forum.

[nx6]

I'm not against anyone wanting to make an informal Parliament among the members interested. If it gains in popularity, perhaps it could go further. Or not, depending. :)
Translation/Prediction: This idea will become nothing more than another odd group in the Random FC section.

Edit: Kinda like Our Lady Kava's Legal Firm (No offense meant to Miss Kava).

[Analog]

If that's all it is, then it is pointless. What good comes from their anyways :P

[Sarteck]

Bleach Project HQ: Come here and freely ask any questions concerning the Bleach Project or suggest a suggestion!

People are free to suggest whatever, remember. ;) And the more we know about what Gotei members want, the more we can shape the Gotei to your ideals. :P

[Z_Blitz]

Artemis, the idea appeals to me, thus the +rep.

That aside, I don't mind actually IMPLEMENTING it, but the number of parliament members is just too big. Now, if we shoot down the 48 to say... 12, then we might have a more efficient means of communication through the staff :).

Like Sar and the others though, I think it can be more of a hindrance however, when C46 and the Gotei DC/VCs are brought into light. Redundancy rarely leads to productive results. At any case, even if the idea is to be implemented, it's going to have to take a back seat for now =p.

EDIT: You might hate the sound of this as well, but for those of you who have been here on CB for long enough, you should know well that the forum has a more of a dictatorship running around, than a democracy =p.

[Xkavanger]

nx6: There was a mention that it would have a 0% success rate. XP

Anyhow... why not give this a two month trial or something?

I'm up for it. :)

It'd give something for each division to do, plus it would be good to have a role for your division, such as the roles in parliament (Foreign affairs minister, treasurer, etc. [You get my point]. But of course, it will need a bit of tweaking here and there.

Scorch: This is the flaw that I wanted to mention: The higher powers being cynical. :P

[nx6]

Scorch: This is the flaw that I wanted to mention: The higher powers being cynical. :P
Pragmatism, not Idealism.

[Analog]

Yes Z we all know it's a dictatorship that was somewhat of the point of this to give the members to feel involved.

I am down for cutting the members, I am not even sure if we could find 3 per a division atm :P. But seriously a trial might be nice. I mean what are the divisions going to be up to the next month or two? Nothing(so it seems). I am sure you are all working very hard, but still this down time sucks :(. This might be an interesting trial, I mean either 1. It fails. Or 2. Promotes activity and works out. Either way you lose nothing. Except maybe if it works you could feel a little loss in power :P lol

[Artemis]

Originally, I cut down in the planning stages, the number of MPs.
Of course, this makes things run faster, but unfortunately cuts down the whole 'the people's say' thing.

Fair enough, originally.

But then, the thought that since the parliament here would be no where close to being as formal as Congress or England's parliament, I came to think that if you open the allowance to comment and introduce the fact that you only speak when you want to, opposed to when the Keeper says you do, then the numbers aren't as bad.

But, there are reasons you are admin, other than the fact you've been here for some time. Well, I hope there are more reasons. :)

Fact is,
I planned it using:

16 Common MPs
4 Leading MPs

Making it one MP rep per division (including VEQ) and 4 coming from C46. It also makes C46's piece of the pie much larger in ratio terms.

And another note.
Not everything needs to go through the CB Parli.
The way its set out (in which a lot, I didn't include), the system works around that, even if you guys let it happen, you could ignore the entire say of the MPs.

Meaning, that issues that you wish to have a need to say in parliament are brought up, along with issues brought up by MPs.

But otherwise, the parliament here is no way even close to being a legislation council of any sorts.

God bless dictatorships.
And all its corrupt ways.

EDIT:

Oh, and the KHs would just be one in number, rather than two.
Unless the MPs are really on fire.
<.<

[Icestorm]

I like this idea purely because it adds something new to the forum that in the end would have nothing but a positive outcome, if it fails, then it fails and we all go back to the old system, but as for me this would add another interest to the forum, and could get people more involved with the decisions.

As it already said, staff have the ultimate decider, but this also ensures that the idea's and suggestions we get are the top priority of the general forum. So all in all my stance is that we can try this new system.. and if it fails then we purely go back to the old system. We have nothing to lose and a chance to gain, and thats enough for me.

[Dissidia]

I'm not really understanding why the staff have the final decision.

That is to say, all C46ers left their divisions to be impartial in managing the BP. Meanwhile, there are many regular staff who are still in teams. This hierarchy of power (MP > LMP> staff) negates the point of regular members being in C46, it implies that I would have a larger voice as a mod (or s-mod) than as a C46 member (which is clearly not the intention and why C46 and staff are separate in usergroups).

That's not to say staff members don't already suggest things for the BP in the staff lounge, just like regular members do in the suggestion thread. Your idea has nice organisation but you make it sound as if G13 members have no say/input (your captains can bring up any issue for C46 in Captains Corner, we could also read any suggestions inside your division but a lot of people flip out).

I mean what are the divisions going to be up to the next month or two? Nothing(so it seems).
Probably Gotei week next week, and hopefully resuming contests straight after.

[Dradam]

This is a terrible idea, i mean the current system does work, and all this will do is make threads redundant. If you have anything to say, as told earlier there are specific places to do it, or specific people to PM. Creating a parliament is meaningless, especially since (to my understanding) the C46 pretty much do all of that already. The only difference is that they are not democratically elected, and as mentioned earlier this is a dictatorship rather than a democracy.
If you actually study the real working parliament, then you will know that it is in fact a highly formulated lengthy process to get anything done, and the fastest that it can do anything is within 24 hours, which was done once under emergency powers. Most the time it takes months to achieve anything, and the only reason it holds any real power is from the Parliament act, which allows parliament to force laws through against the wishes of the HOL (which reminds me of C46 in this instance). Which will only be done if the HOL reject the idea, and because this is a forum, not a government what the admins say goes. Which means there is Administrator soverignty, so there is really no point to setting up what will probably be a waste of time.

[Sin]

I like the idea, i will say that it needs some level of revision and tweaking. But if change is being proposed then obviously the status quo is no longer working as smoothly as people would seem. And the divisions aren't really serving any purpose as of right now.

[Vampyrelord]

Informal Parliament? Sounds like the Petrograd Soviet to me :D

[Cassie]

whoa whoa whoa... all this complicated political stuff.

Let's go back to the basics. If you have something to say, say it. If you hate somebody with a passion, mess with his avatar/usertitle. If you think you should be a Captain, write an article why. If you're bored, make something fun to do.

Bottom line is, to talk the talk, you have to first walk the walk, which is what makes dictatorship/absolute monarchies so sweet.

The idea of implementing a parliament is good, and I commend you for a well thought out proposal. But, there are holes that need to be filled first in order for a foundation to be set, like getting people to participate in the normal stuff first.

I mean what are the divisions going to be up to the next month or two? Nothing(so it seems).

You guys can start with Sarteck Request II.

Walk the walk and prove yourselves before talking the talk.

[Hakuoro]

I personally think this is a great idea. It'll give the Divisions something to do, thus increasing activity, and it will put the Divisions into a higher power within the forum. I think it'll obviously, as you stated, increase the input from the regular un-staff members of CB.

I think that 2 or 3 people per Div is a good idea as well. Don't want to go overboard, nor do you want to have too little.

Overall, a very good idea, in my opinion.

[Alerane]

^Its not necessarily about more power, but more people listening. I just like this because it will address and bring forth issues that matter to each group and they will hopefully be dealt with faster than the current speeds of all this

[Manchester Black]

This is not a good idea. All it does is complicate and lengthen the communication systems. Like Criss Angel said, there are multiple threads on this forum for ANY user to post their suggestions and feedback. It would be silly to put this into play just for the sake of "giving regular users a say in things". They already have a say in things and can post their opinions and what not in the suggestion threads.

You might hate the sound of this as well, but for those of you who have been here on CB for long enough, you should know well that the forum has a more of a dictatorship running around, than a democracy =p.

I don't hate the sound of this, because this is how pretty much every forum out there is anyway. The staff is staff for a reason. They make the final decisions and the users accept that. That doesn't in any way stop the users from suggesting things and voicing their opinions, however.

This whole thing just seems entirely too complicated. Central 46 does what this suggestion is saying, and there is already a working chain of communication from regular Div member to staff.

Div Member --> Capt./Vice Capt. --> C46 --> Staff

People just need to speak up more if they have an idea. Don't be afraid of your captains or the staff. They're open to suggestions and are there for a reason. If you have an idea or problem then spit it out.

The current system is simple and it works. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Cassie]

it will address and bring forth issues that matter to each group and they will hopefully be dealt with faster than the current speeds of all this

It's rather ironic.

The reason everything is taking such a long time is because we (C46) don't know of the issues that matter to each group, and we're trying to guess what these issues are.

[Alerane]

^Exactly the point I see, with representatives you wouldn't have to do as much guess work to improve the forum

[Cassie]

Why not just tell us what you want?

[Decado]

Alerane's post and Kohaku's (the one before Alerane's) it can be answered with:

There are multiple threads on this forum for ANY user to post their suggestions and feedback.
If you have concerns, voice them. What "improvements" to the forums are you talking about? Will you have ideas mapped out in case this actually gets initiated, or will you wait until its created to start thinking of any. If that's the case, then you may have nothing to voice.

It seems that way, because if not, you'd suggest it now in the many threads that are viable to you. :)

What's the point of this thread : Suggestions, Recommendations On Gotei 13 Project (http://forums.bleachportal.net/showthread.php?t=9623) and the others we pointed out, also the other avenues you have to express your ideas to "improve" the forum if it's not going to be used?

They're even coming into your divisions and asking you, and checking out what you're saying. Shouldn't you be voicing your concerns then? They're coming to you. It's the perfect opportunity if you don't want to leave the div to make suggestions.

Edit: As kohaku mentioned above. :)


Also, it was raised earlier that this is for the entire forum:

1. This was raised in the Bleach Project HQ
2. Even if it was for the entire forum, we already pointed out ideal locations and ways to voice your opinions, such as the suggestion thread, which is continuously being used by everyone. :)

[maximoose666]

I think it's a well-devised plan :)

I just think it's unsuitable for Club Bleach and the Gotei project. It would be a long and tedious system, spanning many time zones...

If you want to communicate better with the staff, I suggest you join IRC (irc://irc.rizon.net/clubbleach)

Many of the staff are on the IRC channel and it's a good place to bounce ideas off them in an informal setting.

[Alerane]

My computer system doesn't support IRC =/

EDIT:
Sorry about the off-topicness Nick

[Artemis]

A bit off topic, Ale.

But this is what I think it the resolution here.

Quite a few people like the idea, but say that its unsuitable or it'd only work well in theory. Fair enough.

Quite a few want to try it out or fully implement it. Fair enough.

Quite a few entirely disagree. Fair enough.

At current moment, the staffers aren't very in favour of this proposal.
Fair enough, I say.

After all, with or without my proposal, the staffers are given the road.
So we respect that, in a way.

Lets discuss, but agree that it won't be applied. :)

[ghey b]

i commend you on thinking out something like this and writing it all up but i have to agree that it seems alittle pointless

what this whole system is suggesting as i see it, is that 3 members of each division come together and talk about things they want. In the process bypassing captains and going straight to c46 (who only has control over the bleach project, so if this is indeed for the whole forum, going to them doesnt make the most sense imo)

if we go blitzys route and cut the total number of members to 12 ppl or so, then whats the point of captains. we as captains are here to not only lead the division, but to take your suggestions to higher people and discuss them. Agains captains only deal with the BP system unless they are a mod too.

as stated many time before but i can only quote because of the complete truth of them

-there are multiple multiple suggestion threads in all the forums and for the entire forum itself. use them.
-if you want to talk to staff about changes, then talk to a staff member. whether its an smod or admin you talk to or the mod of the section that you have a suggestion for.



I know this is meant to cut down on time, but in reality will make it take much longer. for now we have to come to conclusions within the division, which can take days. then we have multiple members of the parliament get together and talk about them some more which could take another couple days.

in reality we could just have those same discussions in divisions and the captains (who are already representatives of each division) can take them directly from there to higher ups instead of adding another step and having all the reps from each division talk

or you could..

-directly pm a mod, smod, admin

or..

post in a suggestion thread corresponding to the section you have suggestions for..





imo

[Dradam]

hmm,
ok, hypothetical situation.
If you implemented it, how often would i realisticly be used? i mean how often are things posted in the different threads related to the running of the forums? And the suggestions that are posted, there's normally no need to debate the finer points of them unlike the laws that are created by parliament in RL.
The most use it would serve, may be more in the criminal sense (more like HOL acting as the highest appealing court, of course not including EU.) in this sense it could be used as a place to appeal against bans, and a more formal version of the appeals thread to discuss possible bannings, or revoking bans. As CB is a dictatorship however, this idea is redundant, it is all already run by the C46 and rest of the admins.

[Artemis]

Beside the point that issues in CB are just more than who gets banned and whether we should have more contests, one of the main points thats somewhat overlooked is the generally overall participation of the divisions for something.

Divisions have the chance to work together, against each other and with the higher-ups. At the moment, contests are fine; but isn't it always good if you could make the divvies a somewhat more interesting place?

Now, I'm not saying the CB parliament would ensure that definitely.
But its something that could be tried out.

[~*StÓÑy RèL0ÂÐeD™]

i like this idea ^^

this way, more people can voice their opinions and improve the gotei/veq etc. most of the points have aready been raised by others, so seeing no point in repeating them again, i'll just simply say it has my full support :D

no harm in trying after all.

sorry if the question has aready been raised, but when does it come into effect?

[Artemis]

It doesn't until the staff agree to try it out.
The proposal was to see if any people were interested in trying.

But, I would think there's a far amount of staff that don't really think it'll work, so it'll probably not go ahead.

But thanks for giving your support.
:)

[Dradam]

I'd be willing to give it a go as well...
But i am trying to be realistic, what practical use would it serve?

[Artemis]

Give a slightly more formal and united say about issues in CB.
Allows staff to get non-staff input if they wish.
Allows non-staff to be able to be a tiny bit more in the loop, if they weren't before.

Not to mention the whole 'it'll make the divvies more central, etc.' jazz that we said before.

:)

[Kimochi]

sorry.. i just came by..
it is a good idea.. it actually let non staff to voice out what they have in mind.. thus create a better environment for everyone in cb. but it is also a bad idea.. because it is too complicated to understand and will make things more complicated...

try it out. if it doesn`t work out then it doesn`t.. Actually we can just try it in the div, then captains will do things as per normal now, for eg, it can be used in divisions.. members voice out to captain and captains give reports to the higher authority...

[ghey b]

for eg, it can be used in divisions.. members voice out to captain and captains give reports to the higher authority...
we already do this..

[Artemis]

Mr. Justin has a fine, fine point.
Besides, that misses out on the inter-divisional interaction benefits that the proposal was hopefully going to achieve.

Though the divisions together, it could possibly work.

[ghey b]

lol sorry for the spam but


Mr. Justin

lulz

[Kimochi]

lol.. JB -.- well, if it works well, i suggest we let it be..

[theblack_dragon]

i think its a good idea man alot of the times decisions are made around the forum and we have alot to say to the admins and it turns ugly.

i think the structure is cool and also it should be transparent so we see the people that vote on issues much like the current political system in the states.


my question is how will you guys at the top manage to get eveyperson in these huge houses availible for the meetings?

[Artemis]

Well, if the dear admins of CB would be all for it and we were allowed to do it the way I imagined, which I would think probably come under discussion of the setting out.

But, if we did it the originally planned way, then a usergroup and hidden subforum would be established. Though it does cut out non-MPs and non-staff from viewing, it does help make sure that the only ones that post are MPs and staff members.

If that way was done, then we'd create an external thread that would be frequently updated by the KH to show what the MPs and staff were doing in there, like a public record for all to see.

But in truth, there are plenty of ways to physically lay it out.
There could be better solutions than that.

[girl]

i really like this idea, does any of the staff/ c46 have a say in whether this could happen?

[nx6]

If you've read this entire thread you've already seen the opinions of various C46 and staff members.