Yama-jii's strengh comparison with other captians

[Polygon]

ANIME SPOILERS


I know this has been done to death. But I had an argument on another forum and I wanted more responses.

Do you think he can beat all the current captians ( not including Aizen & Co) with just his shinkai and some VERY, VERY high leveled kidoh? Or do you think he will be FORCED to use his banaki?

If not, how many captians do you think he can take? ( some one said three would completley overwhelm him, but I dought that very much)

Do you believe him to be on a whole othr level or still on captian level ( I hope no one says captian level)

In what situation do think he will be forced to use banaki?

Do you believe him above or below aizen? ( in pure reitsu)

Do you think that age makes a signifigant enought differance to the captians in fighting with yamato. since he is a Lot older than everyone.?

And can you believe that they said yama-jii will need his bankai to fight 3 captians?

If an Admin/Mod feel this thread has been done to much then please lock. I am only making this to another argument and specific points I nned awnsers to.

[Kalikiano]

Well, apparently the fight between Yama-jii, Ukitake, and Kyouraku was a draw (as far as I know)
So I think he will definatly need Bankai to take out three Captains.
I also think that Tousen's Suzumushi bankai could take care of Yama-jii

because who else is crazy enough to let themselves get stabbed in the stomach like Zaraki did.

BUT

in Yama-jii's defense, we still haven't seen EXACTLY what his shikai can do, or his Bankai. He still has a lot of potential to show us.

oh and for age, I say no. Look at hitsugaya, or even ichigo for that matter.

They're geniuses

[Polygon]

I belive that His shinkai directly counters tousns bankai. since it is in a given space. And from what we've seen of his shinkai it seems like there is fire everywhere, burning everything.

And I don't believe the battle to be a draw.


EDIT: Whaen I said age I meant . Do you think age will be a key= factor in fighting yama-jii sincee he is older than any known shinigami. And this is not a few hundred years but a few thousand?

[Hits]

yama will just kill anymore. im not sure but he might be equal match or aizen or at least have to use bankai. and yes, age does come in factor in terms of power since with age, comes experience. the more experience you have, the better. i think if hitsugaya was to age to an age like him, they'd be equal match. since they have great contrast. ice vs fire, young vs old.

[captain_soifon]

was it mentioned that he was a genius? oO well i think he would be able to if it excluded aizen

[Ace]

I think Tousens ban kai would own him and yea who is crazy to get stabbed in the chest lmao. But being the yama he is I bet he has analyzed most of the ban kai's he has seen and found a counter.

[Unrefined-Nemesis]

Hmm..Yama-jii....I Believe That He Is Able To Take On Every Captain On The Same Time As He Is Old And Knows Alot Of Kidou Which Need Not Be Chanted, By-Pass Chant Kidou I Mean And His Shikai Spiritual Pressure Is Already Like A Bankai Spiritual Pressure And I Wouldn't Want To See His Bankai Pressure...However I Do Believe That His Old Age Will Make Him Bound To Wear Do Easily In Battle...

[Kalikiano]

Aizen... what a bastard...
anyways, back on track

I think its a good thing that we don't know anything about Yama-jii (or not much at all)
because, this gives bleach room for more storylines, episodes, etc...
and it will keep being exciting.

[jonat3]

We do know that Yama is 2000 years old at minimum though.

I think Aizen is far stronger than Yama. If Aizen can take out captains in less than 5 seconds, it's safe to say that he can take two or three captains in less than half a minute. My impression was that even Yama took some time to deal with Ukitake and Shunsui.

Tousen is weak compared to Yama. If someone with far higher spiritual energy had his bankai, perhaps he/she could win.

The captain level is BROAD.
Yama is strong enough to take on 4 regular captains AT MINIMUM. Probably even 5 or 6. I consider Ukitake and Shunsui around the same strength as Byakuya. Byakuya is perhaps 5-10 times stronger than Zaraki, cause Ichigo needed bankai against him and Ichigo is roughly equal to Zaraki. Zaraki was able to fight with 2 captains for awhile. So Yama should be able to fight atleast 4 regular captains at minimum.
3 regular captains is probably the limit at which he may not need bankai.

[ChronoTrigga]

Dude, Tousen's bankai would NOT even phase Yama-jii. Think about it, Ichigo couldn't even barely cut Kenpachi until he had the EXTREME desire to cut him. Think about Ichigo trying to cut Yami-jii, he's about 10000000 years too young. Sure Tousen's bankai limits all the senses except touch, but I doubt his blade can even scratch him.

[Fect]

I believe 1 on 1 he can take any of the captains

At the end of Yama's fight with Shunsui and Ukitake both Shunsui and Ukitake were out of breath and kneeling down while Yama didn't even seem to be the least bothered. So I believe it will take atleast 3-4 captains taking him on to overwhelm him.

I believe that he is on a higher level of reiatsu compared to the rest of the captains

I believe that Aizen and Yama are close in Spirituial power. Aizen blocked Ichigo's attack wiith one hand with ease but you have to take into account that Ichigo was extremely injured and so was Renji

I don't believe age will be a factor at all unless he is fighting someone like Aizen



Aizen's "Complete Hypnosis" could beat yama-jii, so long if the Yama were looking at Aizen.

Aizen was only able to block Ichigo's Ban Kai because Aizen's power can fool people into dulling their swords or stuffing less power into it.

[jonat3]

Aizen's "Complete Hypnosis" could beat yama-jii, so long if the Yama were looking at Aizen.

Aizen was only able to block Ichigo's Ban Kai because Aizen's power can fool people into dulling their swords or stuffing less power into it.

No, nowhere is it stated that Aizen can do that. In Ichigo's defense, his fight with Byakuya may have slowed him down, but Aizen blocked Ichigo without using any abilities. It was the difference in spiritual power.

[Injektilo]

Not only that but Ichigo has still never witnessed the release of Aizen's Zanpakutoh, so it couldn't affect him.

According to Aizen himself, he can merely manipulate the appearance of objects that already exist, this includes messing with size, texture, smell, taste, sound etc. but nowhere is there any evidence that emotions can be manipulated.

If Aizen can block Ichigo's sword with a finger then it's safe to assume that so can Yama-jii since if anything Yamamoto would be Aizen's superior in the Shinigami arts.

[ChronoTrigga]

He probably blocked it with his sword, not his finger. I mean, he could have manipulated the eyes. :D

[Polygon]

Not only that but Ichigo has still never witnessed the release of Aizen's Zanpakutoh, so it couldn't affect him.

According to Aizen himself, he can merely manipulate the appearance of objects that already exist, this includes messing with size, texture, smell, taste, sound etc. but nowhere is there any evidence that emotions can be manipulated.

If Aizen can block Ichigo's sword with a finger then it's safe to assume that so can Yama-jii since if anything Yamamoto would be Aizen's superior in the Shinigami arts.

Agreed. Aizens zanpaktou can only effect the five senses. not emotions, or mind controll.

[jonat3]

He probably blocked it with his sword, not his finger. I mean, he could have manipulated the eyes. :D

That would be a useless application of his ability. And it's clear he used a sword to cut Ichigo's belly open.

Ichigo did not see Aizen's release, so Aizen cannot hypnotize Ichigo.

[TylerOC]

why does everybody say that ichigo hasnt seen aizens release? does anybody even KNOW what aizens release looks like? no, they dont. most of the shinigami that have bankai can release their shikai form without even saying anything, so im sure that aizen can. therefore he could just stand there and just mentally release it in a second and then your hypnotized

[Polygon]

why does everybody say that ichigo hasnt seen aizens release? does anybody even KNOW what aizens release looks like? no, they dont. most of the shinigami that have bankai can release their shikai form without even saying anything, so im sure that aizen can. therefore he could just stand there and just mentally release it in a second and then your hypnotized

Then we would have had seen something. And even if we didn't we would have had a flachback or some shing suggesting that aizen had releases in front of him.

[Wren]

Yama-jii would dominate any captain other than Aizen in a straight 1 on 1 fight. If it were multiples, probably 2 with his shikai and 3-4 with his bakai. Although I dont think Shunsui and Juushiro were fighting with their full hearts behind it, the guy was like a father to them. I think both sides were fighting just to prove a point, not to kill one another

[Polygon]

Yama-jii would dominate any captain other than Aizen in a straight 1 on 1 fight. If it were multiples, probably 2 with his shikai and 3-4 with his bakai. Although I dont think Shunsui and Juushiro were fighting with their full hearts behind it, the guy was like a father to them. I think both sides were fighting just to prove a point, not to kill one another

I disagree about his limit. I think he can take on much more. Since thos two were the older captians and yama-jii was dominating them with out even a shred of effort.

I agree that they weren't trying to kill each ther. It was more of a father spanking and child-grgung type of thing.

[Sandal Hat]

Aizen's "Complete Hypnosis" could beat yama-jii, so long if the Yama were looking at Aizen.

Aizen was only able to block Ichigo's Ban Kai because Aizen's power can fool people into dulling their swords or stuffing less power into it.
What did my post have to do with that? Nowhere did I say that Yama can Aizen, just that they are close in spirit power

[lazyking]

in my opinion... i think yama jii is same lvl as aizen or maybe higher abit... coz yama jii shikai is powerful but aizen shikai arent 2 bad also.... i would like to see 2 of them fight if can ...haha

[Hansy]

I think he 'might' be able to take on all 12 captains with Shikai alone. He might have to use his bankai, but its somewhat unlikely unless he was fighting alot of them, because in bleach, quality is 'way' over quantity. Ichigo pwned 3 vice-captains in like a second. Renji beat like a squad in a short amount of time, and there are probably more examples. So since he is, so much stronger than every other captain, he could probably win without bankai, with ALL 12 though he might have to use it.

I think he's stronger than Aizen, nuff said.

[Aragami]

Yama definitely isn't getting his due here...

Did you ppl forget that two captain had to use reiatsu just to recoil from him DRAWING HIS SWORD?

Aizen may give him a slight run at most, but dude...he's like the Yoda Supreme Mode of shinigamis....the man could crush your very being by simply being around you. WTF?! Damn right he can stomp all over the other captains. Honestly, that's the only character I would have SERIOUS doubts of Ichigo even scratching...but who knows, bleach is already trying not to be predictable, so let's just wait and see what happens. Cause us arguing over how we feel about it ain't gonna change the actuality, nahmean?

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

You are forgetting that Aizen took out 2 captains with their bankais unleashed in seconds. He did it effortlessly as well. It could be argued that the reason he did it so quickly is because of his soul slayer, but the man also stopped Ichigo's bankai with his finger. This is probably the greatest example of domination in the series asides from Nanao getting crushed by Yama's spirit pressure. Maybe he manipulated his emotions to make the sword dull. At this point though, this is nothing more than conjecture. If we go by what was seen, which is also the only thing we have to on right now, then we must accept that Ichigo can't even harm Aizen at full power without his hollow. There's just such a huge disparity of power between them.

[Unrefined-Nemesis]

I Believe That Yama-jii Is Able To Defeat Aizen, Afterall Even If He Can't Use His Sword Against Aizen There's Always Kidou And With Age On Yama-jii's Side, Yama-Jii I Presume To Be Able To Bypass The Chant Thingy And Just Straight Away Use The Kidou....

[jonat3]

I believe Aizen to be even more powerful than Yama. I doubt even Yama could take out ichigo in less than a second. The way he dominated the other captains in less than 5 seconds testifies his strength. In my impression, Yama himslef needed a few moments to deal with Ukitake and Shunsui. If it was Aizen, he could probably take them out in less than 30 seconds.

[General Cox]

i think we will have to wait and see about aizen and yama, i dont think we have seen enough of either's swords to see what they can do, i would think aizen probably has the upper hand in demon magic though, but i may be wrong, we do not get to see them that often in the manga

yama's shi kai is definately very powerful, but we never saw how the fight went when shunei and utikate unleashed their shi kai's so i dunno if that would be a fair comparrison either.

[Polygon]

I dought that yama-jiis shinkai is just fir. I wonder what kind of abilities it has.

[Ryoko]

When you guys compare Ichigo to yama and Aizen its like comparing apples and oranges....15 yr old human with like 3 months total 1 month real shinigami training vs 2000 year old Guru and a psychopath bent on world domination. At this point Id say a Tie between the two and Ichigo at a distant ...very distant third if even third... theres no doubt in my mind towards the end Ichigo will be able to beat everyones ass at once but i guess this is the now and the later is well...later. For all we know Aizen will fall off a cliff and yama will have a heart attack. one thing we can say though, is that both have ruffled feathers and are worried about each others factions having more power than their own.

[Metallo5]

It is very true that Aizen is quite godlike in strength speed and Kidou arts, however I don't feel that the complete hypnosis will allow him an advantage over Yama Jii. Hypnosis is a trick on the mind and I believe if one's will is strong enough he could use him flaming shikai to sort of decipher illusions from real images. By manipulating his surroundings and controling the setting he could watch for any disturbance thus negating the hypnosis. Then it would come down to skill and not cheap tricks. True Aizen is second only to Yama so I feel that Yama would use is Bankai vs Aizen's and the winner would be decided through that last move. I'm kinda unsure who would win though. My gut is telling me the old man, but I'm just not sure

[blackwinter]

We do know that Yama is 2000 years old at minimum though.

I think Aizen is far stronger than Yama. If Aizen can take out captains in less than 5 seconds, it's safe to say that he can take two or three captains in less than half a minute. My impression was that even Yama took some time to deal with Ukitake and Shunsui.

Tousen is weak compared to Yama. If someone with far higher spiritual energy had his bankai, perhaps he/she could win.

The captain level is BROAD.
Yama is strong enough to take on 4 regular captains AT MINIMUM. Probably even 5 or 6. I consider Ukitake and Shunsui around the same strength as Byakuya. Byakuya is perhaps 5-10 times stronger than Zaraki, cause Ichigo needed bankai against him and Ichigo is roughly equal to Zaraki. Zaraki was able to fight with 2 captains for awhile. So Yama should be able to fight atleast 4 regular captains at minimum.
3 regular captains is probably the limit at which he may not need bankai.


it's not always about numbers, it's about style. style, man, style.

[largosama]

I'm feeling a Yama vs. Aizen sometime in the future when the news that the scouting party got owned. But then, Ichigo would have to fight Aizen, so Yama would, unfortunately, have to die =(
Hence, Yama would display some skill beyond all the other captains in this fight but won't make it.

[IamJames]

I believe that Yama-jii could defeat all of his subordinate captains at once. Tousen's bankai would not deter him for a second, because all he would have to do is swing his sword, spreading flames that instantly turn things into ash into his general area, or the complete area of Tousen's bankai. Also, how can you say that he needed a moment to defeat two captains? You don't see the fight, and he was fighting while trying not to harm them. He only wanted to defeat them.

Finally, I don't believe that Aizen's complete hypnosis would work on Yama. Captain Unohana noticed that something was wrong with Aizen's supposed death, and Yama is infinitely older than her. This means he is much wiser. Another point that proves his vast intellect is that he started the shinigami school. I do not believe that Aizen's ability would be effective at all against him.

[Bankai!!]

He must bee psysically REALLY STRONG. Did you see his muscles when he released his shikai? So he must be psysically the strongest captain.

[jonat3]

it's not always about numbers, it's about style. style, man, style.

Defeating ichigo by catching his sword with TWO fingers and almost cutting him in half with effortless ease was pretty stylish.

I believe that Yama-jii could defeat all of his subordinate captains at once. Tousen's bankai would not deter him for a second, because all he would have to do is swing his sword, spreading flames that instantly turn things into ash into his general area, or the complete area of Tousen's bankai. Also, how can you say that he needed a moment to defeat two captains? You don't see the fight, and he was fighting while trying not to harm them. He only wanted to defeat them.

Finally, I don't believe that Aizen's complete hypnosis would work on Yama. Captain Unohana noticed that something was wrong with Aizen's supposed death, and Yama is infinitely older than her. This means he is much wiser. Another point that proves his vast intellect is that he started the shinigami school. I do not believe that Aizen's ability would be effective at all against him.

If you were referring to me, i said i was "under the impression". I saw a major blast when Yama, Ukitake and Shunsui clashed. A moment later, i see where both Ukitake ans Shunsui look winded (that's after some other lengthy scenes occurs). So it certainly looked like it atleast took longer than a minute.

About his shikai not working on Yama, i think that would only apply if Yama's spiritual pressure was above Aizen's. Currently, the speed which he beat ichigo seems to suggest aizen's spiritual pressure must be HUGE. His shikai should certainly be able to work on Yama.

[Polygon]

I believe yama-jii can take all the captians at once. I also believe that the difference between General Commander and normal captian is just as great as than between a captian and a VC.

Also, it would make no sense for aizen to be a million times stronger than even yamato. It seems to me yama-jii is stronger but not by an uber great margin.

And since I believe that yama-jii is a little above aizens level he can pwn all the captians just as easily as aizen could've.

If they were ever to fight, I would put my money on yamato. Of course not with out injuries that are great. He wouldn't be ab;e to walk well. But he'll sstill be alive. and he'll have to go into healing for a few days.

And I do think aizens shinkai/bankai would effect yamato. But it seems to me that the flaw of aizens ability is that the ability to sense reitsu is still open.

[jonat3]

I believe yama-jii can take all the captians at once. I also believe that the difference between General Commander and normal captian is just as great as than between a captian and a VC.

Also, it would make no sense for aizen to be a million times stronger than even yamato. It seems to me yama-jii is stronger but not by an uber great margin.

And since I believe that yama-jii is a little above aizens level he can pwn all the captians just as easily as aizen could've.

If they were ever to fight, I would put my money on yamato. Of course not with out injuries that are great. He wouldn't be ab;e to walk well. But he'll sstill be alive. and he'll have to go into healing for a few days.

And I do think aizens shinkai/bankai would effect yamato. But it seems to me that the flaw of aizens ability is that the ability to sense reitsu is still open.

Actually, Aizen's shikai also mimics energy. You won't be able to defeat his shikai by sensing him.

[Polygon]

Actually, Aizen's shikai also mimics energy. You won't be able to defeat his shikai by sensing him.

No. Aizen clearly staes his hsinkai manipulates the 5 senses. Shinigami have the 6th sense to be able to sense reitsu.

[jonat3]

No. Aizen clearly staes his hsinkai manipulates the 5 senses. Shinigami have the 6th sense to be able to sense reitsu.

I'm looking at the anime right now. This is what it says:

Aizen:"Complete hypnotism controls all five of the senses, creating a single figure, form, energy, touch and smell."

Curiously enough, the manga doesn't state energy, but mass.

[Polygon]

I'm looking at the anime right now. This is what it says:

Aizen:"Complete hypnotism controls all five of the senses, creating a single figure, form, energy, touch and smell."

Curiously enough, the manga doesn't state energy, but mass.

That quote actually goes in my favor. This states that his shinkai manipulates the 5 sneses.

But the bottom part doesnt do with the 5 senses. It only 2 of them The bottom part is what it takes for us to perciieve something is there in SS. It is talking about what it seems to you.

Mass actually makes more sense. But it is still going in my favor either way.

It also saying nothing about sensing reitsu or energy

[jonat3]

That quote actually goes in my favor. This states that his shinkai manipulates the 5 sneses.

But the bottom part doesnt do with the 5 senses. It only 2 of them The bottom part is what it takes for us to perciieve something is there in SS. It is talking about what it seems to you.

Mass actually makes more sense. But it is still going in my favor either way.

It also saying nothing about sensing reitsu or energy


If Aizen's shikai can mimic energy, it would basically be able to fool your ability to sense spiritual pressure. I think this is very likely.

[Polygon]

If Aizen's shikai can mimic energy, it would basically be able to fool your ability to sense spiritual pressure. I think this is very likely.

I dought this very much. Because he says 5 senses. To fit in with what you think he would have had to left out one of the basic senses.

Plus this is how I believe unuhana found out about aizen.

[Sir_unforgiven]

I dought this very much. Because he says 5 senses. To fit in with what you think he would have had to left out one of the basic senses.

Plus this is how I believe unuhana found out about aizen.
you do realize this "6th sense" you speak of is speculation right? :P i don't think there is any way around aizens shikai so far, i think a way around it will be found eventually, otherwise he can't be beaten, unless there is some sort of limit to his hypnosis that hasn't been revealed, like it can only effect a certain amount of people or somthing

[AznPoi]

This is all speculation.

[Polygon]

you do realize this "6th sense" you speak of is speculation right? :P i don't think there is any way around aizens shikai so far, i think a way around it will be found eventually, otherwise he can't be beaten, unless there is some sort of limit to his hypnosis that hasn't been revealed, like it can only effect a certain amount of people or somthing

How is it speculation? It is clearly stated that all souls can sense reitsu.

[AznPoi]

Then how come Hitsugaya couldn't sense that the fake Aizen he was stabbing had no reiatsu?

[Polygon]

Then how come Hitsugaya couldn't sense that the fake Aizen he was stabbing had no reiatsu?

Why would he sense it? He had no idea. Plus I dought hitsugaya can sense reitsu as acute as say unohana who is a medic so she would have to. Or say yama-jii. And iazen probaley hides his reitsu.

[BigBadBuu]

There is actually another sense, that out Buddhist friend Ikkaku apparently has-- the "3rd Eye" or whatever that Kenpachi thought about while in Tousen's bankai.

Anyway, Aizen's reitsu's nothing compared to Yama-jii... Why? Noone shit themselves in his presense. Simple as that. He stopped Ichigo's bankai? Ichigo was weakened, #1, and a weakend Tensa Zangetsu is nothing but a sealed Zanpaktu. Kuchiki Taicho was able to match, no BEAT, his speed! Hello?

Aizen's "ownage" comes from the fact that he relies on his shikai to give him the drop on people. Remember, everyone was still in shock over all the events of the past couple days-- hello? Ryoka Invasion, assassinated Captain, Execution, Super Ryoka stoppin Soukyo, Hell Breaking loose, now Aizen's back-- and EVIL??

C'mon, you have to understand that people were all trying to pull their punches here. At the end of the day, remember 2 high level captains crapped themselves in the presense of Yama-jii's shikai. If Aizen was anywhere near that level, other people would have commented on it. They didn't. End.

-Buu

[DMC]

There is actually another sense, that out Buddhist friend Ikkaku apparently has-- the "3rd Eye" or whatever that Kenpachi thought about while in Tousen's bankai.

Anyway, Aizen's reitsu's nothing compared to Yama-jii... Why? Noone shit themselves in his presense. Simple as that. He stopped Ichigo's bankai? Ichigo was weakened, #1, and a weakend Tensa Zangetsu is nothing but a sealed Zanpaktu. Kuchiki Taicho was able to match, no BEAT, his speed! Hello?

Aizen's "ownage" comes from the fact that he relies on his shikai to give him the drop on people. Remember, everyone was still in shock over all the events of the past couple days-- hello? Ryoka Invasion, assassinated Captain, Execution, Super Ryoka stoppin Soukyo, Hell Breaking loose, now Aizen's back-- and EVIL??

C'mon, you have to understand that people were all trying to pull their punches here. At the end of the day, remember 2 high level captains crapped themselves in the presense of Yama-jii's shikai. If Aizen was anywhere near that level, other people would have commented on it. They didn't. End.

-Buu

I agree, every body over exxagerates aizens power and his shikai is cheap as hell. anybody with that kind of shikai can defeat pretty much anybody and i do think theres a way i think sensing reaitsu or something like that.. just close your eyes and sense his reaitsu before you see his blade or something like that..

[IamJames]

Obviously not all souls can sense spiritual pressure, becasuse Zaraki and Yachiru both can not. Ichigo can, but I believe he states he has a lot of trouble with it. If not that doesn't matter, my point is already proven.

Also, who cares if Aizen's shikai can mimic energy? Does that change the fact that pretty much everyone is fooled by it? And yes, people do tend to think of Aizen as more powerful than he really is. No where is it stated that he has this immense physical strength, speed, and all powerful spiritual pressure. Yamamoto obviously has much more, and the same can be said for Zaraki Kenpachi. Also, it is arguable that Kuchiki Byakuya can match him in this category.

Also, I think the solution to Aizen's power is simple: some people cannot be hypnotized in real life, particularily the very wise or very ignorant. That makes 2 people who Aizen's complete hypnosis could be useless against: Zaraki and Yamamoto.

And one more thing that has been irking me: "dought" is not a word. You are looking for "doubt."

[Polygon]

Obviously not all souls can sense spiritual pressure, becasuse Zaraki and Yachiru both can not. Ichigo can, but I believe he states he has a lot of trouble with it. If not that doesn't matter, my point is already proven.

ALL souls can sense reitsu. Its just that somehave more talent than others. Ichigo sucks at sensing reitsu. But when the arrancars came he sure as hell could sense their reitsu, because it was so intense.


Also, who cares if Aizen's shikai can mimic energy? Does that change the fact that pretty much everyone is fooled by it? And yes, people do tend to think of Aizen as more powerful than he really is. No where is it stated that he has this immense physical strength, speed, and all powerful spiritual pressure. Yamamoto obviously has much more, and the same can be said for Zaraki Kenpachi. Also, it is arguable that Kuchiki Byakuya can match him in this category.

It might not change it, but it shows that you can still fight him. Byakuya and Kenpachi would go down by aizens finger. He stopped a bankai like nothing, more than one I might add. Injuried as ichigo might be, it was still bankai.

Also, I think the solution to Aizen's power is simple: some people cannot be hypnotized in real life, particularily the very wise or very ignorant. That makes 2 people who Aizen's complete hypnosis could be useless against: Zaraki and Yamamoto.


Why would the solution only apply to a few individuals? Makes no sense to me.

[BigBadBuu]

@ Octagon

Notice that Aizen caught the flat of the blade with his finger-- that's a matter of speed, not power. Renji's blade he caught with his hand, something most captains could do.

Aizen is not that strong! Hello..?

Why didn't he catch Rukia himself and do some mega kidou flare on her to get Hyoko(?). Why'd he spend so much energy to send SS into chaos-- why not storm the tower "at the right time". He's not the jesus everyone wants him to be.

I think the mangaka realized some of the readers were, ummm, confused as to that and thus added the extra bit to show Aizen's Shikai at work.

[Polygon]

@ Octagon

Notice that Aizen caught the flat of the blade with his finger-- that's a matter of speed, not power. Renji's blade he caught with his hand, something most captains could do.

Sped comes from power. He caught a blade, noughf said.

Aizen is not that strong! Hello..?

Why didn't he catch Rukia himself and do some mega kidou flare on her to get Hyoko(?). Why'd he spend so much energy to send SS into chaos-- why not storm the tower "at the right time". He's not the jesus everyone wants him to be.

I think the mangaka realized some of the readers were, ummm, confused as to that and thus added the extra bit to show Aizen's Shikai at work.

He had his eye on the hongku for a long time. But it seems he fears a fight from Urahara.

[IamJames]

Why does it seem like you're the only one arguing about Aizen's extreme power? We're not saying that he's weak, but there's no way he is as strong as you make him out to be. What is even more confusing however, is that you say Captain Yamamoto is awesome in your sig. Are you perchance trolling a little?

[Polygon]

Why does it seem like you're the only one arguing about Aizen's extreme power? We're not saying that he's weak, but there's no way he is as strong as you make him out to be. What is even more confusing however, is that you say Captain Yamamoto is awesome in your sig. Are you perchance trolling a little?

You posted, I simply responded. And he is as strong as he is. He stopped a bankai without releasing. this shows he can own all the captians. I was just saying you were underestimating him a little.

And for the record I have awesome there because there was once a GIF there and I never took the awwesome off.

[Metallo5]

You posted, I simply responded. And he is as strong as he is. He stopped a bankai without releasing. this shows he can own all the captians. I was just saying you were underestimating him a little.

And for the record I have awesome there because there was once a GIF there and I never took the awwesome off.

Yes it is obivious that Aizen is very strong. When he talked about exceeding the limits of a Death God he sounds like he is speaking through experience. Stoping a Bankai with just his finger I suspect some hypnotism going on there just like when he sliced the Fox Captain. To conclude that Aizen is not godly would be kinda stupid. He has a complete mastery over kidoh and is very skilled in all other forms of combat as well as science. I believe that he feels that he has met his limits as a Death God and wishes to find a way to become even more powerful. All in all I agree with whoever I'm quoteing forgot who is above me lol.

Hey what u said earlier about hypnotism was very inaccurate. The smarter you are or wise whatever you wanna call it the easier it is for you to fall under hypnosis. The way Aizen's powers do not fit the bill would be that in real life you cannot be hypnotised without your consent. You have to be willing to be hypnotised in order to reach that state of hypnosis. The smartest people in the world fall under hypnosis pretty close to instantly. But if you are not willing to be hypnotised then you will not cannot be. I think they would have been better off calling it and illusionary sword that tricks all senses. Not some stupid complete hypnotism that doesn't add up to what hypnotism really is.

[Undying]

Hey, are you guys nuts? Aizen is very strong. Period. Here's the points that back this up:

1st: Someone mentioned that people never commented over Aizen's Reiatsu, like they did over Yama-ji's. Did you guys notice that people weren't crumbling down when they were in his presence earlier? he kept his Reiatsu hidden/locked so as not to kill everyone thats whithin his sight.

2nd: Ichigo was weakened, yeah, but even a weakened Ichigo would've posed a problem for other captains (excluding Yama-ji). Aizen killed him (or nearly enough) in a second. Now I don't say that Yama-ji wouldn't have done the same. I'm proving a point here, no comparing strenghs.

3rd: Aizens ShiKai wouldn't have affected Ichigo because he never saw it's release (according to episode 61, the victim must be aware that he sees a release, hence - Aizen must speak the name out loud).

4th: Who's the idiot who said that other captains could catch Renji's ShiKai bare handed? If they could, Renji would not have been surprised. The only captains that can are (in my opinion) Yama-ji, Aizen and Kenpachi.

5th: Aizen clearly stated that his ShiKai can hypnotyze anybody, hence even Kenpachi or Yama-ji. It doesn't matter if you know whats going on or no. You can't resist. He said so.

6th: Who is comparing Byakuya to Kenpachi? Kenpachi is hella stronger than Byakuya in terms of Reiatsu. Byakuya will only beat him thanks to his BanKai's abilities.

Thank you for listening.

[AltoK]

Would Aizen own Yama-jii ? Not sure.
If he wants to destroy Soul Society so bad, he'd have killed Yama-jii earlier. Then he'd have killed all captains. And VC- and officers- and regular Shinigami.
If he were stronger than Yama-jii, even taking on a bunch of captains wouldn't have posed any problem to him, would have it ?

Sure, Aizen is strong. But I believe that it has something to do with his zanpakuto.
If his zanpakuto's shikai was, say, a fly ; he'd have had no problem hypnotizing everyone. Everything is possible about his shikai, isn't it ?

[Aragami]

Small point....any captain can catch any other captain's shikai bare handed. I read it earlier on in the manga....

[Undying]

@ Argami: Where? it wasn't shown anywhere before.
@ AltoK: No, if his ShiKai was a fly, he wouldn't need to gather all the captain and VCs in order to show them...
And I never said that Aizen would own Yama-ji. Just that Aizen was strong.

[MrPriest]

Sorry if it was mentioned already, but I think Yamato would beat Tousen's bankai easly, because even if Yamato were to not be able to see anything, his raitasu would be too high, and Tousen would only inflict damage on himself, isn't that right, according to Zaraki?

[Dounick]

also along with great age and great experience, wouldnt you think that his age would slow him down in any bit?

[Polygon]

also along with great age and great experience, wouldnt you think that his age would slow him down in any bit?

He is a soul...............

[Dounick]

oh i see, i think i messed picking that up somewhere when i was watching the episodes

[Metallo5]

oui how did we get back on this topic. Yamamoto's strength and Aizens strength. I'm gonna throw it out there like this Aizen is superior to all but one captain Yamamoto himself. He is strong and his shikai complements his inherent or trained abilities. It does not fabricate them.

[Undying]

You know, that's exactly what I'm saying - Aizen is as strong/just slightly below Yama-ji's level.

[BigBadBuu]

You know, that's exactly what I'm saying - Aizen is as strong/just slightly below Yama-ji's level.


There is no-way in god's green hell that Aizen is anywhere near Yama-jii-- noway!

Aizen didn't catch Renji when he 1st came for him.
Aizen was caught off-guard by Ichigo
Aizen was blocked by Ichigo
Aizen failed to kill a completely defenseless Ichigo
Aizen failed to kill a stunned/defenseless Renji
Aizen failed to cast that level 80+ spell correctly.
Aizen was caught off-guard by Yorouchi/Soi Fong.

Do you guys really think Yama-jii would have had any of this happen to him? One *could* argue that Aizen was being sloppy because he had his "menos-save" available, but that Yorouchi-SF "mistake" woulda cost him his head had anyone of them sneezed!

Aizen is strong, yes, but no-where near Yama-jii's level. Hello? Hell, I even think Aizen was afraid of Unohana-- but that's another thread.

Aizen's hypnosis gives him a huge pre-empt advantage over his opponents; unlike Tousen, however, he has to strength to make it count. This doesn't make his god-powerful, though.

-Buu

[Sandal Hat]

Aizen is clearly more powerful than Yami. His(aizen's) unconscience reaitsu his higher than anybody's shown so far. He even had to hold back that power to keep from utterly destroying his opponents to fast.

[Polygon]

Aizen is clearly more powerful than Yami. His(aizen's) unconscience reaitsu his higher than anybody's shown so far. He even had to hold back that power to keep from utterly destroying his opponents to fast.

And how do you know this? We've yet to see a fraction of yamato's power. Sure aizens reitsu is higher than anyones shown so far, but thats just the point. We've yet to see waht yama-jii is capable of. It makes no sense for him to be more powerful than yama-jii.

I think yama-jii owns aizen in reitsu, but his shinkai gives him the edge. Though in the very end I'd say yamato would win, with some major injuries.

[BigBadBuu]

Aizen is clearly more powerful than Yami. His(aizen's) unconscience reaitsu his higher than anybody's shown so far. He even had to hold back that power to keep from utterly destroying his opponents to fast.


I really don't know how you can say that as fact. Aizen only said that to boost his ego (eg, "one speck of dust or do", "hold back strength when stepping on an ant")-- its in no way conclusive.

Remember Ichigo, Ganju, and Hanatarou's reaction to Zaraki? Hello? Remember Ukitake + Shinsui's reaction to Yama-jii? FF to everyone's reactiong to Aizen? Hell, the only time an effect like that was even mentioned when Aizen suggested it was the reason Rukia didn't/wouldn't get up or move. I personally think she was just in shock/drained from seeing Ichigo + Renji getting mutted like that-- Aizen was, again, just grandstanding.

In the end, look at what *happened* and how people reacted to Aizen. He wasn't displaying *any* of the characteristics of someone with ungodly Reitsu. He (again) relies heavily on his shikai ability to give him the edge in fights. A fighter with a hightened sense of intuition, however, would likely still be able to defeat it and Aizen too.

-i Buu

[jonat3]

I really don't know how you can say that as fact. Aizen only said that to boost his ego (eg, "one speck of dust or do", "hold back strength when stepping on an ant")-- its in no way conclusive.

Remember Ichigo, Ganju, and Hanatarou's reaction to Zaraki? Hello? Remember Ukitake + Shinsui's reaction to Yama-jii? FF to everyone's reactiong to Aizen? Hell, the only time an effect like that was even mentioned when Aizen suggested it was the reason Rukia didn't/wouldn't get up or move. I personally think she was just in shock/drained from seeing Ichigo + Renji getting mutted like that-- Aizen was, again, just grandstanding.

In the end, look at what *happened* and how people reacted to Aizen. He wasn't displaying *any* of the characteristics of someone with ungodly Reitsu. He (again) relies heavily on his shikai ability to give him the edge in fights. A fighter with a hightened sense of intuition, however, would likely still be able to defeat it and Aizen too.

-i Buu

They didn't react to Aizen's spriritual pressure cause he's been surpressing it. He said it himself that it's hard for him to hold back his power in order not to crush an ant. He's been hiding his power from all of SS, and in order to do that, suppression of spiritual pressure is a must.

Now, I think it's rather obvious that Aizen is pretty darn strong. He's the big bad boss afterall. The main enemy always has to be far stronger than the hero. And the gap between him and captains has been made obvious. None even stood a chance.

[BigBadBuu]

They didn't react to Aizen's spriritual pressure cause he's been surpressing it. He said it himself that it's hard for him to hold back his power in order not to crush an ant. He's been hiding his power from all of SS, and in order to do that, suppression of spiritual pressure is a must.

Now, I think it's rather obvious that Aizen is pretty darn strong. He's the big bad boss afterall. The main enemy always has to be far stronger than the hero. And the gap between him and captains has been made obvious. None even stood a chance.


That's such a joke!

Aizen was a brutally cruel SOB when he could be, and made excuses for it when he couldn't-- easy as that.

You think he was really trying "hold back" vs Hinamori?
...vs Hitsu
...vs Unohana
...vs Renji + Ichigo?
...vs Komamura
...vs Yoruichi + Soi Fon

No, he picked his battles and talked garbage the whole time. He had zero problems, moral or otherwise, killing people, so talk of "holding back" is just "blah blah" on his part.

-Buu

[jonat3]

That's such a joke!

Aizen was a brutally cruel SOB when he could be, and made excuses for it when he couldn't-- easy as that.

You think he was really trying "hold back" vs Hinamori?
...vs Hitsu
...vs Unohana
...vs Renji + Ichigo?
...vs Komamura
...vs Yoruichi + Soi Fon

No, he picked his battles and talked garbage the whole time. He had zero problems, moral or otherwise, killing people, so talk of "holding back" is just "blah blah" on his part.

-Buu

Yes, i call that holdng back. He didn't even display his bankai. Why? Because everyone that faced him was too worthless for him to use it on. So far, he took out all captains without even breathing hard. Every one that came across him was beat in 5 seconds or less. What the heck should a person do to be considered strong around here!?

[BigBadBuu]

Yes, i call that holdng back. He didn't even display his bankai. Why? Because everyone that faced him was too worthless for him to use it on. So far, he took out all captains without even breathing hard. Every one that came across him was beat in 5 seconds or less. What the heck should a person do to be considered strong around here!?


The question I asked was whether Yama-jii would've fared better or worse in the place of Aizen.

Would Hitsu have lived?
Would Renji have been able to dodge him?
Would Ichigo have snuck up on him?
Would Ichigo have been able to block him?
Would Ichigo have survived such an up-close, defenseless encounter with him?
Would Renji have survived that 2nd attack?
Would Yama-jii have screwed up a Kidou attack, saving Komamura in the process?
Would Yorouchi + Soi Fon have gotten the drop on him like that?

Answer *those* questions before just flatly saying that Aizen is better than Yama.

[Undying]

Guys, guys, remember that the other captains could be in Yama's presence and not fall down? That makes what jonat said right - Aizen is doing the same. Now look, Aizen was talking a lot of bulshit, that's true, but he caught Komamura's ShiKai bare handed! Komamura is a bit stronger than Renji, right? Also, I don't think Aizen intended to kill Ichigo/Renji (that would have ended the story). So, all in all, jonat's right. Aizen is uber strong. I keep sayong this - he's at Yama strengh. About his mistakes, Buu, someone this strong can allow himself to be sloppy. And he said himself he was holding back, that's why Ichi blocked him (a BanKai against an unrleased Zanpaktou, ringing any bells?).

[jonat3]

Well, it's certainly true that we simply haven't seen enough of Yama to compare him with Aizen. The only thing that seems comparable is the time Aizen took in beating Ichigo and the time Yama needed to deal with Ukitake and Shunsui, but that's still not definite to compare.

However, considering how these stroies unfold, the main enemy has always been the strongest untiul the hero rises up and defeats him.

Anyways, i won't say it's definately proven that Aizen is stronger than Yama (though i think it likely), but nobody should tell me he isn't strong.

[Sandal Hat]

@Buu

All of those people could have easily been killed if Aizen wanted to kill him

Would Hitsu have lived if Aizen didn't want him too? Anyways, he thought Hitsu was dead and she have died if Retsu hadn't have saved him and the same for Hinamori

Would Ichigo been able to block him?

Aizen was intending to kill Renji and he didn't need to put much force into it because Renji was a gonner

And yes to all those other questions(btw, when did Renji dodge Aizen?)

[Dounick]

i havent seem him fight yet (im a little behind im the episodes)

[Metallo5]

I really don't believe that Aizen is stronger than Yama Jii. In the same hand even if he unleashed all his power at full burn most captains would be able to stand up without a problem. All of the useful (by that i mean the top six under Yama ) Captains have enormous spiritual power and would not be daunted by the vibrant display of wind and colors mixed with rocks blowing up etc... Both Aizen and Yama are on a whole other level from everyone and since we have not seen the full scope of their abilities lets not give a review until we have had the full meal not just appeitizers.

[Undying]

Ahh, isn't nice for all of us to agree on something for once? (I mean myself, jonat3 and Sandal Hat. We always argue - look again at the forums). Yeah, my point - though we really haven't seen enough of Aizen and Yama-ji to compare, there are some point, which already have been listed - that allow us some comparison between them. All that's left now is for the Manga to show whether we are right or wrong (based on past experience, we are all wrong, and the story will show us something unbelievable.).
[Edit] Read this post before Metallo's one.

[BigBadBuu]

Surprise, Surprise... the *anime* is actually giving clues as to just how strong Aizen is relative to others.

Twice, we have now seen Aizen nuke captains. Twice we have seen the Anime producers make special effort to show that Aizen's *shikai* ability had much to do with him "punking" both Hitsu & Komomura (compared to the manga's depiction of these scenes).

Why would they do this?

...only 1 answer! To lessen the impact of Aizen "ownage". Aizen catching swords and whatnot is a sign of power, yes; but the anime producers, by showing Aizen's reliance on his Shikai ability, have made a special effort to show that in a "fair fight" other captains could and would have put up much more of a fight!

This puts Aizen much closer to the pack of Captains and away from this 'better than or equal to Yama-jii' nonsense I've been reading on the forums. Again, watch the anime and ask yourself why would they go as far as they did to show Aizen using his shikai if not to clarify debates such as this?

-Buu

[Sandal Hat]

Buu buu buu......

Aizen never used his shikai on Ichigo. He punked him down with one finger, that was too show you that Aizen isn't some punk with a cheap zanpakuto

[Metallo5]

Yes Aizen is very powerful even without the Shikai release. He wouldn't make a good anime villain any other way.

[BigBadBuu]

Buu buu buu......

Aizen never used his shikai on Ichigo. He punked him down with one finger, that was too show you that Aizen isn't some punk with a cheap zanpakuto


Ach, Sandal-Hat, I never said that at all!

I'm just saying all this talk that Aizen is close to, if not stronger, than Yama-jii is all non-sense. I agree, he is one of the stronger, smarter, and better trained captains-- but he's not at or near the level of Yama-jii.

Also, your point re: Ichigo-- try recalling what Ichigo was doing *right* before saving Renji. Hello? He was being helped down the mountain by his friends; he couldn't walk-- Renji even commented on how banged up he looked! As has already been shown (vs Byakuya), Ichigo's bankai is *no good* vs a competent captain when he's in that condition-- he might as well be fighting with a sealed Zanpakto!

I think the mangaka's (and now the Anime producers) have made extraordinary efforts to show that Aizen's strength lies not so much in his raw strength, but his tactical use of knowledge-- on a strategic level, the whole SS arch; on a personal level, Kidou & Zanpaktou mastery + Hybridization tech. Yes, he's very powerful-- comparable to Urahara. He's in no way, however, a Zaraki, Yama-jii, or even Ichigo and saying that he absolutely outclasses all other captains (especially Yama-jii) is just irresponsible.

-Buu

[Metallo5]

Are you serious. Aizen wants to exceed the level of a shiningami and become something greater. To want to exceed the limitations of a shiningami mean he probably has reached or has seen first hand what these limits are. Yes he is on the top tier my friend. please do not delude yourself. The creators went through the trouble to illustrate that Aizen is not weak nor near the level where any ordinary captain can beat him. The elder four including Yama have a chance other than that it doesn't look good for anyone who faces him.

[Sandal Hat]

Regardless of what state Ichigo was in when he was getting carried down the mountain his sword, while in bankai and rushing towards Aizen with pure intent to kill, was stopped by the power of Aizen's finger.

He is not an Ichigo, Zaraki, or Yama he is Aizen and he clearly outclasses Ichigo and Zaraki. Without mastering his hollow and becomeing much stronger through training Ichigo will at most give Aizen the closest thing to a paper cut.

[blackmemory]

Jama-ji must be strong, yes, that would make sense since he's teh first above captains, but personaly i havent seen any impressive feats that old man can use do decimate everything. fire is a joke for Ukitake and his Pink friend :redbiggri . And the bruises that they got in a fight with Yamamoto, they could actually hurt each other (incidentally), swinging 2 swords all the time... Old man is elusive and experienced, he knows tactics of his pupils i guess.
But Aizen said( true or not, who knows): "Aizen as you knew him didnt existed from the start". So his abilities under question now, IMO.
Mayuri would kill Yamamoto AND Aizen with his bankai, if he would managed to do it and not die sooner, cause without antidote poison finishes everyone! (wacky idea, i know)

[Sandal Hat]

Yama sword turned the surrounding buildings into ash. So don't underestimate him. Nanao-chan even thought they would die and if the fight would have gone on longer they more than likely would have.

[blackmemory]

Yep, they would die, if jama-ji wanted it that way, cause he's powerfull enough, i guess (dont know for sure, but would be logical). I just hope that Aizen kills Yamamoto, or at least Ukitake. I surely will be dissapointed if Unohana will heal Hitsugaya, and i WILL be furious if Hinamori still alive. I mean, come on, cant they just die?
Then again, what am i thinking about, even despicable mayuri survived, how could good people perish...
But i still hope, that Aizen killed those do-gooders, and kills some more...

[AltoK]

Mayuri would kill Yamamoto AND Aizen with his bankai, if he would managed to do it and not die sooner, cause without antidote poison finishes everyone! (wacky idea, i know)

Yama-jii would burn the poison just like he'd make water evaporate, but I have to agree that Aizen could be weaker against that type of attacks. Mayuri surrounds himself with a cloud of poison gas, and Aizen can't touch him without getting poisoned to death. Concludo : both die (yay !)
But, I seriously doubt that Aizen would give Mayuri time to summon his Ban Kai.

[Undying]

Well of course Aizen is super strong, on Yama-ji's level. That is chewing chewed meat. Literally. Of course, the Anime producers went through the trouble of adding things to the scences, but remember that this is Anime. You have to add/subtract somethings in order to make it look good. Now Buu, I assume that you meant when Hitsugaya stroke Aizen and it looked like he stroke Aizen and then Aizen disapeared. Remeber the Ichigo/Byakuya fight? There is a thing called "after image" on that scale of speed that Aizen and his likes are using. It appears continually in other Anime that have very fast speeds involved (see the Rouroni Kenshin Anime. There is an episode there where Kenshin specifically mentions that his foe saw "an after image"). What Hitsugaya stroke was never there, because Aizen already moved. Now another point is Aizens ShiKai. You might say that Aizen used his ShiKai, thus confusing Hitsugaya, but remember what Isane said? That he "gathered all the captains and VCs and showed them his Zanpaktou's ability". Now, when does a captain has a reason to gather all the captains and VCs? When he is promoted. Remeber there was a mention that he must prove he has BanKai. But when Aizen was promoted, Hitsugaya was nowhere to be seen in the Seireitei! So he, too was not affected by Aizen's release. Next, Ichigo. I think you are mistaking what Byakuya said. He said "that's a BanKai? That's just another Zanpaktou" regarding the size of Tensa Zangetsu. A BanKai is a BanKai, no matter how you look at this. Basically, if Byakuya would have attacked Aizen with his BanKai in his current state, do you think it would have had any other effect than Ichigos? It's the same thing. A BanKai, even weakened, is a BanKai. And if Ichigo would have been at exellent health, would the result been differnt? Obviously, no.
That proves that Aizen outclasses most captains. About the older four (i.e. Unohana, Shunsui, Juushiro, and Yama-ji) I will refer to them in an order:
#1: Unohana. Note that beforehand, Aizen only attacked those who attacked him, in a "I still don't have what I need so I won't waste time" approach, so haven't fought her for obvious reasons (I don't know whether the theory about Aizen not fighting her because she'd cause him pains, or because he was too lazy, but that's beside the point). But it is still obvious that he outclasses her by far.
#2: Shunsui. I don't know. Really. I think he is stronger, but the fact is that we know *nothing* about Shunsui's battle strength, beyond that he is strong. I still believe that Aizen beats him though, even if it'll be a bit more difficult than beatin Hitsugaya.
#3: Juushiro. I have no idead. Plain and simple. I think his case is the same as Shunsui's, but we still know nothing about his strengths/weaknesses (beyong the sickness)/ShiKai abilities/BanKai (generally).
#4: Yama-ji. I really have not the slightest incling. Yama is strong. Very strong. But this is one time where I'm sure Aizen will use his ShiKai.
Well, to conclude, the amongst the older four, there is only assumptions. We know absoulutly nothing about them, beyond hints and the like, so there is no point comparing. Lastly, Buu, it's obvious that Aizen uses statigic/tactical ways of beating hi opponent. It's a part of fighting "Shinigami style" as well. If you only use brute strength (Zaraki style) you will lose to someone who is stronger than you, eventually. However, if you have tactic/strategy, you can turn the tide (that is BTW why I admire Byakuya's style of fighting so much. He is one that does not need any advice on using tactics to beat his foes).
[Edit]: Holy mother of god...! I just wrotye a freakign essay! That is weird...

[Sandal Hat]

A great read indeed.

I don't know how you could explain Aizen smiling inside the encasement of ice and striking Hitsugaya at the same time though

[Undying]

Thanks for the compliments... I'll keep this short, or I may write another essay by accident... Aizen smiled in the encasement of ice was an after iamge, I explained that. Thats all.

[Sandal Hat]

Usually after images don't change shape after the user has moved but just slowly fade away

[babbtong]

I thought that the Aizen that Hitsugaya stabbed was his shikai in action?

[BigBadBuu]

I thought that the Aizen that Hitsugaya stabbed was his shikai in action?


Shhhhh... :winking56: It was-- we're just respecting the effort Undying put into his over-long, but passionate Essay!

:biggthump:

[frbbls]

A BanKai is a BanKai, no matter how you look at this. Basically, if Byakuya would have attacked Aizen with his BanKai in his current state, do you think it would have had any other effect than Ichigos? It's the same thing. A BanKai, even weakened, is a BanKai. And if Ichigo would have been at exellent health, would the result been differnt? Obviously, no.
That proves that Aizen outclasses most captains.

This is my first post here on the forums, so hi to you ;), but dont get me wrong im following this thread a long time and ive been anxious to reply.
YOur right about Aizen outclassing captains.

Remember Anime ep #61 where Renji attacked Aizen with his shikai after aizen gave him a cut in the arm? He said along the lines of 'thats not going to help in your current state', Renji still being wounded and all from former battles.
Same goes for ichigo, he might be consious and carried around, but notice the two mayor slices on both his shoulders, well cmon, this might be manga/anime but any logical person notices noone can really be as effective both wounded shoulders (even if it IS a bankai) as if ichigo was fighting the battle unscathed. Aizen could of used the whole hand or his sword to stop the bankai... who knows ;)

And do try to remember its not just the 'OMFG HE PULLED THE FINGERMOVE!!11111'. Ichigo was severly wounded before he came to Souyoku (or whatever), battled Byakuya while being exhausted, then tries to fight Aizen.
Im not the anti-aizen person, but dont think hes god cause he pulled his finger out, and btw, in the anime we see hes pulling his sword out so why couldnt his shikai effect ichigo? I can imagine he misguides Ichigo into believing he stopped his bankai with his finger, that would surprise anyone.. he stoppes to move, Aizen takes the position of his illusion with his finger on the sword, slices Ichigo etc etc.

[Metallo5]

There are multiple things that Aizen can do with his shikai, however it would not be stylistically anime if the archvillains first appearance was not a godly one.

Take it however you want but I'm a fan of Aizen more than Unohana and would gladly preach about him anytime. Yes he is damn good and just because he can do super complex illusions with his sword doesn't mean he needs it. Aizen embodies that Noble Composure that I admire about any character. I admitt his intentions and lust for power ultimately lead him to the darkside.(seriously deep in it) But he has the power to stop Ichigo's wild unwieldly attacks just like Byakuya could have stopped Ichigo's attacks if he had taken him seriously in the beginning before Bankai. Ichigo and Renji are not really percise yet in their skills and are full of unecessary movements and weakness etc... Aizen feels that he has attained the top lvl a shiningami can accieve. Ichigo and Renji are not top lvl Shiningami and even high on like 85 millions sensou beans would never have a chance to defeat Aizen.

I do believe the elder 3 ( not including Yama) could put at least one scratch on him because.....
#1 They probably are just as good or better when it comes to strategy
#2 Its just my gut feeling even though I can't prove it lol.
#3 If they are Byakuya's Senpais then we have a little guess at what they can probably do with Kidoh and Shunpo etc....

[Edit]: Holy mother of god...! I just wrotye a freakign essay! That is weird...[/QUOTE]
Great Read lol. At first I wasn't gonna read it it was too long. Then I realized that I hasd read the whole thing.

[Undying]

:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: XD XD XD I just love you guys. So many compliments, I can't stop laughing about that little "Shhhhh...., it was, we're just respecting..."... HAHAHA... *wipes out tears of laugh, keeps laughing quietly to himself*. The truth is I lost myself while writing... hehe... Now about that after image, Aizen smiled, then moved, but since he moved super fast, the after image seemed to smile, then vanished. About Renji and Ichigo, fine, all right, they were wounded, weak, blah blah. I still tell you, a BanKai is a BanKai. It's more than just swinging you swords about, or Kenpachi would have been on Yama's level (i.e. it's all about physicall strength), and BanKai/ShiKai would have had no meaning, and we all know that is not so. So you want to say Ichigo/Renji were useless? fine. Have it your way. What about Komamura, then? Aizen caught his ShiKai bare handed with only a moments notice, was Komamura useless? No. He wasn't even wounded much, since he never faught Kenpachi all-out. (Come on, Metallo, help preach the ultimate Aizen strength bible... I can't say your arguments, I rejected some of them ealier - the compsure one, for instance... So for once, we agree on something, help, for Aizen-sama's sake).
BTW, I still love you guys.

[Metallo5]

Whats wrong its not apart of my theory its just a random fact that I that I like about that characters personality.

[frbbls]

if byakuya's hands were wounded his bankai wouldnt go twice the speed ;).

[Undying]

@Metallo: That was a joke. I hope you realise that I only meant that since we already agree on something we'd ally as a joke. But since we do agree, we can at least put our theories together to prove to everyone that Aizen may be nearing Yama-ji's level... Anyway, that was what I remembered most clearly from your thepries (since I like it too) so that's why I mentioned it...
@febbls: What do the wounds on Byakuya's hands have to do with his BanKai? I guess if you sliced off his hands taht would have been true, but just meazly wounds? Nahh.

[frbbls]

wounds in bleach seem more like enormous cuts. so they might take the hand off indeed, im implying a bankai is better when not wounded/almost dead. and about komamura, ichigo is way over him as komamura is most likely under byakuya in level of reiatsu/power.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

You need to remember that if it wasn't for Noname (Ichigo's Hollow) then Ichigo would've lost to Byakuya. Also, he wasn't fighting confetti head at full strength either for the sake of honor. He could've attacked him from all sides with the swords formed from Senkei. Not to mention, what would've happened if he had performed White Lightning on Ichigo's head? I don't think anybody needs to think about that to reach the obvious answer. Plus, what did Ichigo say when Aizen performed Black Coffin on Komamura? "Even a captain of the same level be defeated like this?" I don't think he implying that fox-man is as strong as four eyes, but then who is he referring to? Ichigo obviously felt Komamura was as powerful as one of the previous captains he had encountered.

[Amu]

Aizen is BS! THEY HAVE MADE HIM OVERDONE LIKE HE CAN STOP CRAP WITH HANDS AND NOW HE HAS THE UNBREAKABLE LIGHT TELEPORT WITH THE BLOODLY HOUGKOYU

[Hits]

"Even a captain of the same level be defeated like this?" I don't think he implying that fox-man is as strong as four eyes, but then who is he referring to? Ichigo obviously felt Komamura was as powerful as one of the previous captains he had encountered.
He didn't say that. He said something like "How can there be such power difference between even between two captains?"

[OrbitzXT]

"Even though they are both captain level, he isn't able to do anything against him!"

Ichigo has come to realize the rank of captain is broad, and there aren't 13 people strolling around all equal to each other.

[Sandal Hat]

Haha, yes Orbitz is right.


The quote depends on who translated it or if your using the manga quote. Orbitz's was from DB btw.

I'm guessing the next episode is gonna be a hour long episode of filllers.

[Metallo5]

your sure its just a guess.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

In Komamura's defense, Aizen still used his entire palm to block his shikai. That's better than having your bankai stopped with a single finger. I think it would've harmed him if he didn't stop and probably the same for Tensa Zangetsu. Renji, no. He's just a pathetic weakling. Haha, j/k. Anyway, we haven't seen enough of fox-man to determine his power level. I want to see his bankai in action.

[Metallo5]

I think the fox is all about brute strength and I really don't see much skill on him.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

We can't actually determine that since we haven't seen him in an actual battle yet. I think it's a guarantee we'll see him in action in the future though. KT doesn't seem like the kind of person to create a character and not use them.

[Undying]

True, likw now - we see Hitsu (or hope we're gonna see him, at any rate) fight. Fox man=Kenpachi. Super brute strength (or that's my impression at least) adding a BanKai (since Kenpachi is one of a kind). Sanda Hat: Don't wake the devil from his slumber. Besides, if there will be fillers (which might well be, judging from the preview) I'll just Getsuga Tenshou the crap out of the TV Tokyo menager... Lastly, according to the translations in the Manga, Ichigo said: "Even though they are both Captains, there is still such a differnce in power..." although it must mean that he really have understood that the rank of Captain does not neccerily signify that they are equal, there is also the point of Aizen being much stronger than Komamura (not that Komamura's a weakling, really, I'd rather cut off my arm than fight with him, even if I was someone like Ichigo...). Lastly, to those think that Ichigo would've died without No-Name, remember that Ichigo had no intention of killing Byakuya, or he would have cut his neck at the first oppotunity (when he first unleshed BanKai), and as to why Byakuya didn't use Byakurai on Ichigo's head, taht's cause he wanted to kill Ichigo with his own hands (i.e. with his sword).

[Metallo5]

Actually I would find it easier to battle Komamura than Shunsui and Ukitake. We've seen enough of him to know that he uses sheer brute power that is sort of slow an unwieldly similar to Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshou. (non-bankai). Great Speed and proper use of Kidoh I feel he'll go down after several devasting Shots stings blasts and slashes. LOL yes it will take quite a few.

[OrbitzXT]

There is something a lot of people don't realize, Aizen has had the advantage of having most everyone hypnotized already. Yes he is very powerful, but he has this severe advantage from the start. Against Renji, he got owned cause he was worn out already and exposed to Aizen, Ichigo severly worn out. With Komamura he too was exposed to it, when he goes to use his bankai he wonders why Aizen is still in front of him. Aizen's hypnotism allowed him time to quickly cast Black Coffin. In the conversation with Gin states it wasn't even 1/3rd of its power, which is obvious because Komamura is rather unharmed shortly after...it just caught him off guard.

Even with Aizen's kidoh, hypnotism and other skills he was no match for the reinforcements that arrived. If he could have killed them, he would have done so, thus the desire for him to raise his limits and escape when he did. So Aizen isn't really this godlike being just catching people's attacks. However all I just discussed it Aizen before obtaining the device from Rukia, now he's on a whole new level.

[Sandal Hat]

Yes, I agree Aizen is not like this god like being. I think he's stronger Yama but not by much. I can't imagine how strong he is now, assuming he used the hougyoku on himself already.

[hitsu_kun]

Now that I think of it, age does play a apart in terms of strength, cos' I've been to threads where there were quite abit of Hitsugaya bashing, just b'cos he lost to Aizen even in Bankai form. I think Aizen is a real sissy to pick on a kid (though a pretty mature one at that), and obviously came out on top, let alone with his 'unimaginable hex-powers'. and just cos' of that,some people stereotype Hitsugaya as 'weak', which is absolute bullshit. He might not be THE strongest captain, but the fact that he is a captain, shows he definitely got alot of kick-ass strength.

[Metallo5]

When I say that Aizen is godlike I don't think he is just so uber that he can take on all SS at the same time. I feel he might have enough strength to take on two or three Captains at the same time other than that He would get overpowered through numbers.
@orbitz: Komamura was not unharmed after that attack he could barely stand. Its just some people are so tought that they withstand a deadly attack and still stand like its nothing but be vitally injured. Ex. Ikkaku vs Arrancar guy, Ichigo after 1000 Cherry Blossoms. Also Aizen states that only 1/3 of its destructive power was unleashed.
PS: I really don't think Aizen has perfected the Hougyoku and won't use it on himself until he can produce a perfect Hybrid.

[Undying]

Precisely! And whos the idiot that says Hitsugaya's weak? Tousen is weak. And he's the only "weak" captain (in comparison to other captain/captain level people). Hitsu's a kick ass. It's just that Aizen is stonger, that's all. I personally agree with Meallo and Sansal-Hat - Aizen is as strong/slightly stronger than Yama-ji. Even if he is weaker - and that not by much, he is obviously above Shunsui and Ukitake, they couldn't have caught Komamura's ShiKai bare handed (too much strength, yeah it's slow, but slow like an avalanche - it flattens anything in it's path) - he still has Kyouka Suygetsu. Last 2 things: Who thought that Aizen could take on all of Soul-Society's captains at once? Even those who think Yama-ji is the strongest of all (yeah right, I think he's on par with the strongest Menos/Arrancar) should agree that he can't take all of the captains *at once*. @Metallo: Kidouh is my favorite thing ('s why Byakuya's my favorite charcter - unusuall for me, I usually like the good looking girls best... hehe I'm shallow) and I, too, think that a good Kidouh user (lets say like Byakuya or Youroichi or Unohana) will beat him... After a while.

[OrbitzXT]

It'll be no one other than Ichigo who defeats Aizen, sure he may have some help from other people...but Aizen is or will soon be on a new dimension of power. A level of power only Ichigo really has the potential to obtain. As for Hitsugaya being weak, I agree he isn't. Just like Komamura he got caught off guard by Aizen's hypnotism. He thought Aizen was in the block of ice when clearly he wasn't. A lot of people are quick to say Komamura is nothing but pure strength. That's not really fair to say of him since you really see so little of his fighting. He personality is that of a calm, collected, wise individual. His size indicates hes tough, so I think as are most captains he's a well rounded fighter..just unfortunately like Hitsugaya we see him get owned by Aizen rather than have the opportunity to kick some ass. But we may see something in the future.

[Metallo5]

No my friend you are wrong on that one. Not all of the captains are well rounded. Zaraki and the rest of them are not jacks of all trades. Komamura is not calm and collected he seems to be very enraged when he was fighting. He might be smart and powerful since he is a captain, but he is not collected like Unohana, Urahara, Shunsui, Byakuya, Ukitake, Yamamoto.

[grunin]

zaraki gets stabbed in the chest.....does he die?

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

Ugh, what does your post have to do with anything? I don't think there's any such thing as a mortal wound for Zaraki unless you cut him in half or put a sword right through his head. An espada would probably take him down with little effort though.

[DMC]

Ugh, what does your post have to do with anything? I don't think there's any such thing as a mortal wound for Zaraki unless you cut him in half or put a sword right through his head. An espada would probably take him down with little effort though.

I dont know about that.. if he has bankai.. then thats another story

[OrbitzXT]

No my friend you are wrong on that one. Not all of the captains are well rounded. Zaraki and the rest of them are not jacks of all trades. Komamura is not calm and collected he seems to be very enraged when he was fighting. He might be smart and powerful since he is a captain, but he is not collected like Unohana, Urahara, Shunsui, Byakuya, Ukitake, Yamamoto.

Noooooo...you're wrong. Obviously anyone who watches Bleach knows the captains are all not the same and some excel in certain fields. To debate specifically Komamura, you just don't see him fight enough. I mean if you saw Byakuya early on you could say he's weak and is based on nothing but speed...which as we saw more of him we learned thats not true. He's very intelligent, has powerful kidoh, and some nifty other tricks.

Komamura is enraged because Tousen, a very longtime close friend, has betrayed him. I think he has a right to be enraged, that doesn't meant he's pure strength. I think its very safe to say Komamura is more than strength, however we just haven't seen anything yet because we've seen him fight for roughly a minute total at most if you add all the time together.

[Undying]

Naah, Komamura has nothing in dignity and composure on Byakuya, Ukitake, Shunsui, Unohana and Yama-ji. Byakuya only loses his calm when Ichigo injures his pride (rightfully, BTW) and Ukitake only when Yama-ji won't see reason. Shunsui never loses his calm (even wounded and all) and Unohana only for a brief moment when she discovers Aizen's treason. Komamura loses his calm when Zaraki taunts him... Byakuya would have never lost his calm even when his friend is about to die (he'll just save him, like when Rukia was about to kick the bucket, he had that "I'm perfectly calm" expression). Komamura went wild after a single taunt...
@Kyouka, DMC: araki doesn't have BanKai, and I don't think he'd have dicovered the name of his sword in the short time since Ichigo beat him. And really now, even an Espapda will have trouble against him...
And a few last things: Not all the captains are equal (Aizen, Yama-ji stronger than everyone, Kenpachi beat Tousen without even getting serously wounded... there were a lot of scenes that show the difference between the captains).

[tednfs]

most underestimate tousen..serves the guy right
but either he wasn't suppose to kill zaraki..although he seemed emotionally engaged in the fight
or he's just to soft to kill somebody..if eg aizen had that bankai..he wud kill the guy in the first strike..unless the person has extraordinary reiastsu to block it with their hands
byakuya is ma favorite character..but he's noble ..he is supposed to be like that..but thats bullocks
for utitake and shinsui...i wont say aizen is more powerful..or atleast before he transfored...what we know is tousen joined..aizen was a vc..prob the other two were captains..but time in SS doesnt count..like in hitsaguyas case
zaraki is collected as well..he never seemed angry..even when he couldnt get his zankapotou to reveal it self
i at first thought the captains wud be rougly the same strenght
was i wrong

[Metallo5]

I knew by looking at them that Aizen, Yama, Shunsui, Ukitake were probably the strongest. I know I'm not alone on this. Zaraki is just wildly insane and just loves to fight thats not very collected. Someone who just smiles and laughs it off when they are stabbed in the chest is just really scary.
-The reasons I thought Aizen was strongest was because he looked like a nerd with those glasses and that hair. Usually the weak looking ones are pretty strong.
-Old master theory held strong on Yama Jii
-The lazy ones are not incapble of fighting they are just so good they don't see the point. That explained Shunsui. he wears a flower jacket on top of his captain's cloak. It is hot as hell oiutside in SS. Maybe they can't feel it though. I live in Houston Tx. and the sun beams just like that and it mixes with the humidity. I can't help but faint when I see someone with two jackets on.
-Some characters are insanely strong and have some kind of diease that makes them incapable of fighting and so when I saw Ukitake spit up blood I figured he had to be strong when he wasn't sick.

Yea I pretty much pegged everyone based upon looks. Unohana I used context clues to try to figure out whats her approximate level of strength. The only person I got wrong was Soi Fon. I thought she would be tough talking about how she would kill anyone who got in her way and that her only job is to eliminate the enemy. That was a waste of breathe for such a worthless character. ( I'm not saying she's not tough, its just she wasn't as tough as the show lead us to believe.

[tednfs]

very well said
metallo5

[Metallo5]

Thank u very much mr roboto

[Undying]

Definetly good reasoning. But don't you think Kenpachi is as strong as Ukitake/Shunusi (or at least Byakuya)? I mean, every just falls over with his Reiatsu and everyone exclaims that he is uber strong.

[Sandal Hat]

The only people that were affected by his reiatsu were Ichigo, Hanatarou and Ganju which is pretty understandable sense they were weak as hell when they first met Zaraki. Also, about Soi Fong, she never got to release her bankai so she might rank a little higher once we see what it is(its probably not that great or highly developed seeing as how she has just been perfecting her Shikai ability for 100 years and developing Shunko)

[Metallo5]

U got a point there. It could be like Hitsu's and have a time limit since she is relatively young.
No Zaraki is not really that strong to me his spirit power only affects the weaker people. I believe most of the higher up captains have about the same amount as him.
Not to mention they might know a little Kidoh, Byakuya.

[DMC]

U got a point there. It could be like Hitsu's and have a time limit since she is relatively young.
No Zaraki is not really that strong to me his spirit power only affects the weaker people. I believe most of the higher up captains have about the same amount as him.
Not to mention they might know a little Kidoh, Byakuya.

If your talking about raw reaitsu, then yes ichigo , yama and aizen are more/less than his.. Other captains... hmm with bankai might more/less than his reaitsu. Yes hes strong hello ? >< havent you seen what hes displayed. No freaking backup from his sword and he can do alot with his monster reaitsu. Name other captains that can would be as strong as zaraki with no shikai or bankai.. Very few..

[Metallo5]

I would like to note that you cannot take away abilities to measure someone's strength. If I took away Byakuya's Shikai and Bankai and his Kidoh of course he'll get owned by Zaraki however if I took away Zaraki's reiatsu then he would get owned by Byakuya. I really don't understand what point your trying to make with your example.

[captain_soifon]

If your talking about raw reaitsu, then yes ichigo , yama and aizen are more/less than his.. Other captains... hmm with bankai might more/less than his reaitsu. Yes hes strong hello ? >< havent you seen what hes displayed. No freaking backup from his sword and he can do alot with his monster reaitsu. Name other captains that can would be as strong as zaraki with no shikai or bankai.. Very few..
but the fact remains he doesnt have shikai/bankai

[DMC]

I would like to note that you cannot take away abilities to measure someone's strength. If I took away Byakuya's Shikai and Bankai and his Kidoh of course he'll get owned by Zaraki however if I took away Zaraki's reiatsu then he would get owned by Byakuya. I really don't understand what point your trying to make with your example.

Im taking away abilities cause you know most captains rely on their shikai and kidoh now, those captains would be useless. Kenpachi has so much potential if he has bankai. I do think he has shikai.. no way in hell somebody would forge him another sword and the way he acts during the tousen and komamura fights makes me a believer... hopefully since the cover art for 192 has byakuya and kenpachi.. atleast they can show up in this arc or something..

[Metallo5]

They have to rely on techniques because not everyone can use raw power. Thats in ever type of grappling and wrestling sport there is. Not everything is about raw power. I'll always value technique over it becuase it seems that everyone who knows the best techniques is above Zaraki. He's only effective if he's next to you or within sliceing range. If he can't get in its useless.

[Undying]

There's something you ignored there - the fighting styles. While Byakuya relys on abilities and Kidouh, for Kenpachi the fight is a clash of raw power. Therfore, Kenpachi is among the strongest of the captains, but Byakuya will win because he has a complete mastery of his fighting style. Kenpachi just wildely swings that sword of his. That's why comparing him to other captains is useless, unless they fight the same way - clashing of Reiatsu. Otherwise, you're comparing oranges to potatos.

[Polygon]

There's something you ignored there - the fighting styles. While Byakuya relys on abilities and Kidouh, for Kenpachi the fight is a clash of raw power. Therfore, Kenpachi is among the strongest of the captains, but Byakuya will win because he has a complete mastery of his fighting style. Kenpachi just wildely swings that sword of his. That's why comparing him to other captains is useless, unless they fight the same way - clashing of Reiatsu. Otherwise, you're comparing oranges to potatos.

What are you talking about? Ken has a massive amount of skill. He uses his own power, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to fight. He doen't just use raw power.

[Undying]

I didn't say he doesn't know how to fight. What I meant was that his style of fighting is different (like I said, for him, the fight is a comparison of brute strength). And swinging the sword like some bee-stung Gorilla is part of that style.

[Polygon]

I didn't say he doesn't know how to fight. What I meant was that his style of fighting is different (like I said, for him, the fight is a comparison of brute strength). And swinging the sword like some bee-stung Gorilla is part of that style.

Oh, OK. I see.....

[tednfs]

undying
dont insult kenpachi like that
give him his props
the reason certain captains are stronger must be their limits as elaborated on by byakuya(coolest guy)
ofcourse the focus on the 4 different fighting styles will affect it
but most captains try to be well rounded
byakuya is as well rounded as anybody else..although he is seen to prefer kidoh and foot to foot....he fought with ichigo so he must be cud with swords..and hands..nothign has been shown about this skill apart from military peeps and aizen
some captains just are more affiliated to a certain style..but most are just average

[Undying]

Hey, when did I say that Kenpachi was weak? I said he was among the strongest.

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

I didn't read the other 14 pages, but..

How the hell can you say Kyouraku + Ukitake vs. Yama was a draw? They didn't even fight! All they did was release theire Shikais and talk. Yama can probably own any Captain, probably even Aizen. There is a REASON that he is the sotaicho. And he can OWN Tousen's bankai.

*zone surrounds Yama*
*burns EVERYTHING, and even some things outside of the dark zone, and brutally kills Tousen. And remember, being sotaicho, he HAS to have a ban kai.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

This is a question that has been bugging me. Does shikai get stronger over time? We know bankai does because of the training involved to master it and unlock its secrets. Does the first release undergo a similar process? I'm sure Yama was powerful when he first became a shinigami, but did Ryujin Jakka still have the same firepower? The pun was intended. :winking56

We can conclude logically that ability based first releases like Tousen's and Komamura's do. I don't think the former could perform both of the techniques that his zanpaku-to is capable of when he first learned its name. This probably true for fox-man too. What about kidou [Fujikukaku (Yumichika's) and Tobuime (Hinamori's)], simple form-changing [like Houzukimaru (Ikkaku's) and Gegetsuburi (fat guy's mace)], summoning [Hyrounimaru], elemental [Ryujin Jakka], and movement based [Shinsou] based zanpaku-to's? Do you think they also progress in power and if so how does it work?

[Undying]

I think they do. Given the amount of time and training all Shinigami's who are powerful and desire to become stronger, they have to. I mean, you don't really think that evreyone knows everything about theire Zanpaktou's just from learning it's name? HollowIchigo said that to Ichigo in "Dark Side of the Universe". It takes time to learn the full extent of abilities the ShiKai has (Ichigo didn't even know that his ShiKai had a Kidouh based attack untill after BanKai training) so it makes sense that the powers of a Shinigami rise over time - though they will stop rising, depending on talent.
I don't think that Ryuujin Jakka had the same firepower when Yama-ji became a Taichou - I think he needed time before his Reiatsu in ShiKai was the same level as BanKai of normal CPs.

[Sandal Hat]

Soi Fong is evidence that Shikai becomes stronger over time. Her zanpakuto's ability 100 years ago was weaker because the butterflys dissapeared shortly after appearing but, now it last until she is defeated.

[Metallo5]

Ture that true that. It would suck if u had to stick with your release's power lvl without being able to enhance it overtime.

[Undying]

It would suck it u had to stick with your first releases power whether good or bad without being able to enhance it overtime.You would suck? What do you have to do with it?

Sandal Hat:
I think you know what he meant

[Metallo5]

Hmm it may have been a strange sentence but get over it dude. U know what I meant.

[Byakuya7]

wow I just had a crazy thought. What if Yamamoto transformed into a hybrid and used the Hogyoku....I cant even imagine that level of power.

[Undying]

Byaku-chan, he'll kil with a stare...
[Edit]: Metallo, I knew what you meant. I just couldn't help it.

[frbbls]

wow I just had a crazy thought. What if Yamamoto transformed into a hybrid and used the Hogyoku....I cant even imagine that level of power.


yamamoto kills the bleach series! o/ and kubo.

[captain_soifon]

Byaku-chan, he'll kil with a stare...
[Edit]: Metallo, I knew what you meant. I just couldn't help it.
LOL byaku-chan, he'd own u in 2 seconds

[Metallo5]

I dun like byakuya becuase he's overated. he allowed himself to lose because of his shrewd sense of pride.

[Undying]

One thing your right about. He is very proud. He undesetimated Ichigo, leading to his down fall. But about letting himself lose, he was on the verge of collapsing. Did you really think he lost because of the "you broke my sword" thingy? He just realised he was wrong to try and kill Rukia (he had his promise to Hisana to fulfill anyway). I don't know if he's overrated though. That's not for me to decide since he is one of my favourites, obviously I'd be in his favor. BTW, just so you know, I meant Byakuya7...

[Metallo5]

He realized he was wrong only after his sword was broken. The imperial sword was broken and it represented a type of shattering of his principles as well as his bondage to the rules. At that point Ichigo freed him to pursue his desires free from internal conflict.
You can see when he makes the realisation when it shows a close up of his eyes. When his sword is breaking. The eyes say it all.

[Undying]

*makes sounds of agreement* exactly. Thats what I meant.

[Metallo5]

oops forgot thats was for Byakuya7.

[Byakuya7]

I see Yamamoto as the typical overpowered shounen character in bleach. I think its possible that he can defeat Aizen with ease because theres always one character in an anime thats above the rest of the cast. Such as Seijuro Hiko in Rurouni kenshin who is light years ahead of everyone in RK in terms of skill and power. I think this could apply here and that Yamamoto can defeat Aizen without much effort, but for some strange reason he wont intervine. Its just my theory though.

[Undying]

Soujiro was behing Shishio in power. I think that you're right though. Yama-oji-san could probably beat Aizen, even while hypnptized, due to his swords abilty, and is experienced enough to avoid getting hypnotyzed in the first place. But he won't intervine... Since it's logically Ichigo who must beat Aizen, being the main character.

[Byakuya7]

No. Hiko Seijuro is the strongest in the RK series as stated by the creator of the manga. Im not talking about Soujiro, the messed up kid with no emotions, I was talking about Kenshins master. Beside that, yea I think Yamamoto owns all.

[Undying]

Ahhh... Thanks for correcting me. My bad. Sorry *bows*

[Darkness_becomes (me)]

wow I just had a crazy thought. What if Yamamoto transformed into a hybrid and used the Hogyoku....I cant even imagine that level of power.
I think Yama-jii would turn into a tribble...

But I doubt we'll ever see him really fight, unless something kills him.

[Metallo5]

Its more likely that someone will kill him. the old master always dies after the villain obtains the power he was searching for.
In Rouroni Kenshin his master was not too much ahead of kenshin, but he was still ahead of Kenshin. lol.

[OrbitzXT]

Its more likely that someone will kill him. the old master always dies after the villain obtains the power he was searching for.
In Rouroni Kenshin his master was not too much ahead of kenshin, but he was still ahead of Kenshin. lol.

I really don't think Yama-jii will ever be killed, in other anime where the old master dies there's more of a focus on that character and whatever he's leader of. Aizen doesn't hate Soul Society, Yama-jii or the Shinigami...he just wants to increase his own powers and become godlike, or god. Like in Naruto, Orochimaru has a passion to destroy Konoha and everything relating to it. The Third Hokage died protecting the village he loved. Yes, I think Yama-jii would die trying to protect Soul Society and its values, but I don't think it'll come to that. Unless...maybe Aizen will send one of his hybrids after Yama-jii to test its power and some awesome fight ensues...that would be cool, and one of the few situations I could see a fight to the death involving Yama-jii.

[Metallo5]

well i will admitt that is true.

[Byakuya7]

I think king frost and Yamamoto should fight. Ice vs. Fire, now that would be awesome.

[SLVR]

I think king frost and Yamamoto should fight. Ice vs. Fire, now that would be awesome.
That would be a good fight. Then we can gauge him against Aizen :D

[Polygon]

I have a weird feeling King Frost >>> Aizen. Not entirley, but at least in reaitu and pure power. Could king frost be the yamajii of hollows? The big eye thing that appeared when aizen esaped?

[silverwolf801]

you have an anti aizen fc what, even though aizen is ultimate evil and killed his vice captain and killed everyone in room 46 and is working with hollows doesn't make him a bad person does it

[Undying]

0_0? 'scuse me? Killing good and innocent people (Hanamori) is good? I think you're a bit too much on your Hollow side, silverwolf-san.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

you have an anti aizen fc what, even though aizen is ultimate evil and killed his vice captain and killed everyone in room 46 and is working with hollows doesn't make him a bad person does it

I agree. He's not evil, just ambitious. Aizen does have the good will of everyone in mind. His sole purpose is to fill that throne left vacant in heaven within the Bleach universe. You need to have a lot of character and compassion to do such a thing. He even ran Hinamori through out of sympathy because she would've lived a tortured existence without him. When it comes down to it, Sosuke is really a good guy.

[Sandal Hat]

Amen to that Kyouka Suigetsu

Also, Aizen>>>King-Frost. I don't think Aizen is like all of those other stupid mad scientist who make monsters stronger than they are.

[Undying]

Amen. Aizen may not King Frost, but he is sure to have the Arrancars hypnotized so he is stronger than them all.

[Metallo5]

Ok i'm missing something important here. Who is king frost?

[Byakuya7]

Hes supposedly the strongest Espada. He hasnt been revealed in the manga yet, but a list was recently posted containing names of all the arrancar, including the espadas. Hes ranked number 0 meaning that hes probably the leader of all them just below Aizen.

[Polygon]

you have an anti aizen fc what, even though aizen is ultimate evil and killed his vice captain and killed everyone in room 46 and is working with hollows doesn't make him a bad person does it

Of course it doesn't. But the fact remains that he is one VERY twisted induvidual. He'd rather not kill anyone, but he fells no emotion if he does kill.

[ttoad]

you have an anti aizen fc what, even though aizen is ultimate evil and killed his vice captain and killed everyone in room 46 and is working with hollows doesn't make him a bad person does it

Are you an Itard or did your parents just drop you on your head more than mine did, of course he is a bad person you idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sandal Hat]

Lets not result to flaming each other now guyz >.>

[Metallo5]

( shakes head in agreement. ) Aizen is evil because he lost his reasonable humanity when it he was overcome with this lust for power.

[Byakuya7]

Are you an Itard or did your parents just drop you on your head more than mine did, of course he is a bad person you idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please dont flame other people. If you want I can prove you wrong and show you without a reasonable doubt that Aizen isnt as bad as he seems. I dont think you want me to write that much though just to prove a point.

[Undying]

Please don't. We'll pop our eyes out reading. It's ok, I will dispose of ttoad (j/k). Anyhow, it's true that Aizen's bad, and he has a strange twist to hhis humanity. Then again I don't really care about him. I never really liked him and he is the main villian of the show. What's the great point of