Byakuya Vs. Grimmjow [Manga Spoilers]

[The sunlight]

a pretty good match up, i think. Both have speedy styles packed with a great amount of reiatsu. Byakuya beat 7th, but is he up for 6th ?....

[Chi]

If Byakuya took damage from Grimmjow though it would really hurt I mean really hurt and slow him donw alot. And i think Grimmjow is a lil bit faster then Byakuya. Probably a bit stronger too.

[Lightey]

For this one i would most likely be on byakuya side but i think grimmjow would take this one.

[bonez392]

yea grimjow would prolly win.
his strength would overpower byakuya imo.
and if he went released form then it would be over.

[Chi]

I wonder if he would even need to release, seeing how he barehandedly masacred Ichigo in bankai, the same Ichigo that beat byakuya.

[Zanga]

His release would completley trump SKY's speed. His speed was on par, if not greater than Vaizard bankai Ichigo's speed, which is much greater then standard bankai Ichigo's speed who was indeed faster then SKY.

[bballstar23]

I would have to say Grimmjow would win this one, especially since the speed of his released form took Ichigo by surprise. Also, when Ichigo fought Grimmjow in Bankai, he was beaten pretty easily, and that flurry of punches that Grimmjow hit him with was almost impossible. Also, Grimmjow doesn't like thinking anyone is his equal, so the fact that Byakuya would inevitably look down upon him would definitely get the fire burining within Grimmjow.

[xxBluebird]

Byakuya didn't seem like he had loads of trouble killing[?] the 7th Espada, so maybe he can actually take on Grimmy too [unless there's a huge gap between 7th and 6th, like with the SS captains' power gaps].

But as far as speed of Shunpo/Sonido goes, Grimmy would pwn, but Byakuya can practically cover the sky with Senbonzakura and that might be able to stop him a bit [not to mention that kidou that traps you or something with these little bars of light, can't remember what it's called but I think Rukia used it on Aaroniero too] and even up the power gap if there is one?

Apparently though, Grimmjow> or = Ichigo[?]> or = Byakuya.

With the "> or =", I can't remember if Ichigo actually ever defeated Grimmjow or not, but if it's like Rock Paper Scissors best of [number], I think Grimmy would actually be stronger than Ichigo because he's kicked Ichigo's ass a lot more times than Ichigo has beaten him.

It's also hard for me to say if Ichigo is actually stronger than Byakuya or not. Now, he probably is... for a few seconds [hollow mask]. When they fought each other at the end of the SS arc, they were both basically half dead but still standing, and Ichigo's hollow had taken over at a point in the fight and had srsly bashed Byakuya around quite a bit. Their battle seemed more like a draw with Byakuya admitting defeat than Ichigo winning straight out, to me.

Byakuya vs Grimmy, I think, would be either a draw with both dead or both alive, or a really close fight.

[Zanga]

Byakuya didn't seem like he had loads of trouble killing[?] the 7th Espada, so maybe he can actually take on Grimmy too [unless there's a huge gap between 7th and 6th, like with the SS captains' power gaps].

But as far as speed of Shunpo/Sonido goes, Grimmy would pwn, but Byakuya can practically cover the sky with Senbonzakura and that might be able to stop him a bit [not to mention that kidou that traps you or something with these little bars of light, can't remember what it's called but I think Rukia used it on Aaroniero too] and even up the power gap if there is one?

Apparently though, Grimmjow> or = Ichigo[?]> or = Byakuya.

With the "> or =", I can't remember if Ichigo actually ever defeated Grimmjow or not, but if it's like Rock Paper Scissors best of [number], I think Grimmy would actually be stronger than Ichigo because he's kicked Ichigo's ass a lot more times than Ichigo has beaten him.

It's also hard for me to say if Ichigo is actually stronger than Byakuya or not. Now, he probably is... for a few seconds [hollow mask]. When they fought each other at the end of the SS arc, they were both basically half dead but still standing, and Ichigo's hollow had taken over at a point in the fight and had srsly bashed Byakuya around quite a bit. Their battle seemed more like a draw with Byakuya admitting defeat than Ichigo winning straight out, to me.

Byakuya vs Grimmy, I think, would be either a draw with both dead or both alive, or a really close fight.

Uhm, Ichigo is loads more powerful then Byakuya now. And few seconds for the mask? Did you not see how long he held it in the final battle against Grimmjaw. That was more then a few seconds.

Ichigo vs. Byakuya

In Ichigo's fight with Byakuya, he outsped Senbonzakura Kageyoshi. Byakuya had to trap Ichigo by sending Senbonzakura in all directions and it took Byakuya pretty long and he had to use his hands, which double SKY's speed; and still barely got Ichigo. And what happened when Ichigo finally got caught? Oh yeah, he swat every single petal away like a fly.

Ichigo vs Grimmjow

The same Ichigo that matched up with Byakuya(victory or defeat, your pick really), Ichigo fights Grimmjow. And gets horribly destroyed. The same Ichigo with the same speed against Byakuya was getting outsped by Grimmjow who wasn't even trying throughout the whole fight. The same blade that pierced and cut Byakuya was stopped twice by Grimmjow barehanded.

Ichigo vs Grimmjaw(final)

Ichigo goes Vaizard. Grimmjaw released. Pretty even fight throughout the match. Ichigo being able to hold the mask longer gave him much more power than his standard Bankai power, the same power that was equal/greater to Byakuya. Meaning his speed increased, his power increased and his reiatsu increased. To the point where Unreleased Grimmjow got owed really hard and barely survived 11 seconds of the fight. The same Grimmjaw that massacred Bankai Ichigo, the same Bankai Ichigo who matched with Byakuya.

Even through all this released Grimmjow outsped Vaizard Ichigo, beat the shit out of Vaizard Ichigo and basically would've killed him had pl0tkai not kicked in.

So no OneSidedlove, this is not even close to a close match. Byakuya would get ripped to shreds.

[Jay3205]

Like Zanga says, Grimmjaw would own Byakuya. Ichigo in bankai has the upper hand against Byakuya. Ichigo + extra training + vaizard power + black getsuga tenshou is on par with with Grimmjaw, which means Grimmjaw is far above Byakuya.

[xxBluebird]

[[Okay, I need to reread the manga really badly >_< I can't remember anything about Grimmjow vs Ichigo except the fight where Rukia was going to get her head cero'd and that Grimmjow's final form is Pantera which is this weird panther-thing... Oh well. Will read it now. ]]

Yes Grimmjow is going to pwn Byakuya in terms of speed... but Byakuya still has Senkei SKY and kidou, which he practically killed Ichigo with [before his Hollow decided to take over]. So if he ever swears he's going to kill Grimmjow "by his own hand" and uses Senkei SKY, Grimmy's chances of winning will go down. Especially if every single one of those swords came raining down on him [which is unlikely due to Bya's pride, but I guess there's a chance of it happening o_O;; ]. So although Grimmjow is faster and may be able to block SKY, Byakuya still has kidou and Senkei SKY[which he will probably not use].

And if we're using Ichigo as a way of comparing the two -
Byakuya was still standing, although barely standing, and still had the energy to talk to Ichigo after their fight. I think he also maintained his shikai at the time too, which meant he could've probably still fought a little.
Grimmjow, who was fighting a slightly/very muchly stronger Ichigo, went falling to the ground and even lost his Arrancar-ized version of shikai/bankai but was still going to fight before Noit turned up.
In Bya's fight, Ichigo was going to go down too and seemed like he had even less energy than Bya did.
In Grimmy's fight, Ichigo was pretty battered as well but he'd gotten stronger since fighting Byakuya, so he could actually stand up properly then [and kind-of fight Noit too!]

So since Grimmy was fighting a better Ichigo than the Ichigo who fought Byakuya, he ended up more half-dead than Byakuya did.
Ichigo, when he fought Bya, was weaker than when he fought Grimmjow, so he had more injuries.
- Grimmy and Bya both lost to Ichigo
- Bya at that time < Ichigo at that time [Bya didn't turn out as injured as Grimmy did]
- Grimmy at that time < Ichigo at that time [Grimmy got more beaten up than Bya did]
- Ichigo had gotten stronger in between the fights
Does this kind of put Grimmjow and Byakuya on more equal ground? Although I suppose Grimmjow [I]would actually pwn Byakuya, depending on what parts of the manga you look at.

[The sunlight]

Hmmm..people seem to forget that bankai ichigo was evading senbonzakura at first, but then his stamina ran out and he was unable to move. He was actually beaten. Byakuya was going to finish ichigo off and he couldn't do anything. Byakuya didn't have a single serious injury on him at that time. Ichigo got the upper hand when his hollow took over + he surprised byakuya. And, current ichigo + mask, could potentially be weaker then ichigo + uncontrolled mask, because ogichi would be able to tap into a deeper power reserve then ichigo can. So, that means, byakuya "fought" a hollow ichigo that was even stronger then the one grimmjow fought and he was off guard due to surprise, then he took a sword slash across the chest, and a double point-blank range kuroi getsuga tenshou. And was still standing. So, i don't think that Grimmjow is So much above byakuya.

[Haseo]

Current Ichigo + Mask = Roughly on Released Grimmjow's level.
Ogihci = Stronger than Ulquiorra.

Much bigger power difference.

Hmmm..people seem to forget that bankai ichigo was evading senbonzakura at first, but then his stamina ran out and he was unable to move. He was actually beaten. Byakuya was going to finish ichigo off and he couldn't do anything. Byakuya didn't have a single serious injury on him at that time.

Did you forget WHY that was? I'm pretty sure Ichigo can handle his Bankai's reaitsu now, he can fully control it (which means no more dropping stamina) so it'd be a much different fight.

And, current ichigo + mask, could potentially be weaker then ichigo + uncontrolled mask, because ogichi would be able to tap into a deeper power reserve then ichigo can.

See above. Ogihci can use all of his Hollow Power and all of Ichigo's current Shinigami power, of course he's stronger.

So, that means, byakuya "fought" a hollow ichigo that was even stronger then the one grimmjow fought and he was off guard due to surprise, then he took a sword slash across the chest, and a double point-blank range kuroi getsuga tenshou.

It was somewhat deflected/dodged. Ignoring the fact Ogihci was playing around with Byakuya.

And was still standing. So, i don't think that Grimmjow is So much above byakuya.

Grimmjow wasn't even released and was still standing himself. Grimmjow decimates Byakuya without releasing. He has the speed, power, and versatility to do so.

[SenpaiRetsu]

Of course Byakuya SKY is perfect.

Nobody has been stronger than SKY thus far including Ichigo. For plot purposes Byakuya switched from SKY to Senkei. but had he stayed in SKY form Ichigo would have been too exhausted to keep dodging. He'd have fatigued and Byakuya would still have been standing in the same spot not tired at all.

And could SKY cut Grimmjaw? of course take this from the Byakuya vs. Nnoitora argument. sure Zaraki has a massive spirit force. but a PATCHED Zaraki could cut Nnoitora, to think that a bankai Byakuya is not at least equal to a patched zaraki as far as attack power is concerned. and Nnoitora has the strongest heirro so his is thicker than Grimmjaw's.

Byakuya fought Ogichi, Ogichi>>>>Vaizard Ichigo.

[Chi]

hmmm, ogichi also Fd byakuya up in like 2 secs even crushing Byakuya's sword with his bare hands.

Plus ichigo beating Zaraki was... um... i dunno plotkai! think about it... he had to borrow all of Zangetsu's power which included Ogichi's power to defeat Zaraki so its like saying Vizard bankai ichigo beat Zaraki... so still not a fair comparisson cause zangetsu said i will lend you all of my power

[SenpaiRetsu]

hmmm, ogichi also Fd byakuya up in like 2 secs even crushing Byakuya's sword with his bare hands.

Plus ichigo beating Zaraki was... um... i dunno plotkai! think about it... he had to borrow all of Zangetsu's power which included Ogichi's power to defeat Zaraki so its like saying Vizard bankai ichigo beat Zaraki... so still not a fair comparisson cause zangetsu said i will lend you all of my power


Yea but that was against and unpatched Zaraki. patched Zaraki cut could Nnoitora, Byakuya is a the very minimum equal to patched Zaraki.

Unpatched Zaraki is debatable in another place.

[Jeggo]

Grimmjow would be the victor , due to his immense speed , power and versality in combat. He has many attacks , some of them being used from distance (cero e.t.c) and is equally deadly in melee combat.

He would destroy the Byakuya we have seen.

But I voted a draw , because I do not think Byakuya-sama has shown as all his got :)

[Seff]

Byakuya lost two limbs fighting no.7 and Grimmjow is stronger. Byakuya gunna loose 4 limbs?

Also, Ichigo maxed = Released Grimmjow
Ichigo bankai > maxed Byakuya

[ninjabot]

As much as it makes it impossible to keep my lunch down while admitting it, I, much like George Washington...cannont tell a lie.

Byakuya doesn't stand a chance *gag*. Don't get me wrong though, Grimmjow isn't faster than Byakuya. Well, base movement speed, yeah. But Byakuya's Shunpo>Grimmjow's Sonido. Released Leroux's hierro should be at or around Un-released Grimmjow's, so cutting Grimm isn't a problem. It's just Grimmjow can take waaaaay more damage than Byakuya *ugh*.

Hadou 80>Cero aswell. Maybe not Gran Rey, but I see a wall of SKY enduring whatever projectiles are launched at him, save for Disgarron. Still, it just takes a stray spike to the torso to end the fight.

[Zanga]

Hmmm..people seem to forget that bankai ichigo was evading senbonzakura at first, but then his stamina ran out and he was unable to move. He was actually beaten.

Yes he was defeated, but that doesn't mean Ichigo is weaker then Byakuya per say. Like the story of the Tortoise and the Hare. The tortoise beat the hare, but does that mean the tortoise is faster?

My point being, the current Ichigo, who showed us he could properly fight in his bankai form(their final battle before both go released/mask), he had complete control and didn't show any sign of fatigue. Meaning if that current Ichigo fights Byakuya, Ichigo can dodged SKY all day if he want and if it gets close he'll just swat them away again.



Byakuya was going to finish ichigo off and he couldn't do anything. Byakuya didn't have a single serious injury on him at that time. Ichigo got the upper hand when his hollow took over + he surprised byakuya. And, current ichigo + mask, could potentially be weaker then ichigo + uncontrolled mask, because ogichi would be able to tap into a deeper power reserve then ichigo can. So, that means, byakuya "fought" a hollow ichigo that was even stronger then the one grimmjow fought

Fought? More like raped and eaten alive. Byakuya was suprised when he came out true, but Byakuya kept his cool, summoned a sword and prepared to fight, in which he was stomped upon. So even if that Ogichi was stronger the current Vaizard Ichigo, it doesn't really say much since Byakuya was having a hard time keeping up with him let alone swing his sword. All Byakuya really did was stay alive, and we never really saw Byakuya 'get hit' by the Getsugas, he might've dodged since all Byakuya lost was his gay hair piece thing.


Yes Grimmjow is going to pwn Byakuya in terms of speed... but Byakuya still has Senkei SKY and kidou, which he practically killed Ichigo with [before his Hollow decided to take over]. So if he ever swears he's going to kill Grimmjow "by his own hand" and uses Senkei SKY, Grimmy's chances of winning will go down. Especially if every single one of those swords came raining down on him [which is unlikely due to Bya's pride, but I guess there's a chance of it happening o_O;; ]. So although Grimmjow is faster and may be able to block SKY, Byakuya still has kidou and Senkei SKY[which he will probably not use].

In my personal opinion, making the area such a small condensed area by sealing the two fighters in makes fight a person with Grimmjaw's speed extremely risky and lethal. Sure Byakuya can make the blades rain down, but will he do it if Grimmjaw is right beside Byakuya? He's fast enough to keep up with Byakuya, especially in such a small area.

I'm not denying Senkei is very dangerous, but against a person as fast as Grimmjaw, going senkei might actually be the wrong thing to do.

And if we're using Ichigo as a way of comparing the two -
Byakuya was still standing, although barely standing, and still had the energy to talk to Ichigo after their fight. I think he also maintained his shikai at the time too, which meant he could've probably still fought a little.
Grimmjow, who was fighting a slightly/very muchly stronger Ichigo, went falling to the ground and even lost his Arrancar-ized version of shikai/bankai [I think it's called Resurreccion or something?] but was still going to fight before Noit turned up.
In Bya's fight, Ichigo was going to go down too and seemed like he had even less energy than Bya did.
In Grimmy's fight, Ichigo was pretty battered as well but he'd gotten stronger since fighting Byakuya, so he could actually stand up properly then [and kind-of fight Noit too!]

So since Grimmy was fighting a better Ichigo than the Ichigo who fought Byakuya, he ended up more half-dead than Byakuya did.
Ichigo, when he fought Bya, was weaker than when he fought Grimmjow, so he had more injuries.
- Grimmy and Bya both lost to Ichigo
- Bya at that time < Ichigo at that time [Bya didn't turn out as injured as Grimmy did]
- Grimmy at that time < Ichigo at that time [Grimmy got more beaten up than Bya did]
- Ichigo had gotten stronger in between the fights
Does this kind of put Grimmjow and Byakuya on more equal ground? Although I suppose Grimmjow would actually pwn Byakuya, depending on what parts of the manga you look at.

There's a big flaw in this. I suggest you read the final fight against Ichigo vs Grimmjaw once more since infact, Grimmjaw did win. Ichigo was down, mask was crumbling, Ichigo could barely move really. Grimmjaw, thought battered, cut a bit was walking around still capable of fight, and even launching his most powerful attacks. But then it kicked in. That god-damn, unknown phenomenon known as Plotkai

"Dont die Kurosaki-Kun!! D= D= D="

"Ok Grimmjaw now i rapeth you" And Ichigo delivers a severe wound.

And then Grimmjaw stills guts Ichigo multiple times after this and launches his final move ...then shounen power kicked in.

And Grimmjaw lost.


Sadly.

[smach]

no offense to the thread starter but this is retarded.

sky can't penetrate what bankai ichigo can't penetrate, hence it's mootness against 6th and above.

as Chi mentioned, zangetsu lending ichigo all of his power means lending him ogichi's power as well, which is obviously how he tied with zaraki.

byakuya being able to cut noitora like zaraki did means he can also "get used to your hardness"...aka a load of BS, especially seeing how he doesn't have omgwtfbbq amazing ridiculous strength like the patchman possesses.

his best shot is using hakuteiken, which most likely won't be very effective against someone who is clearly faster and stronger than bankai ichigo. not only that, but byakuya's sword is the only thing that will be stronger, meaning he'd still be wtfpwned by any attack grimjow throws at him. FFS if grimjow wanted he could do to byakuya what he did to luppi.

why is this retarded? coz it's old news that sealed grimjow > bankai ichigo > bankai byakuya.

[SenpaiRetsu]

SKY> Ichigo Ichigo= Grimmjaw SKY>Grimmjaw

SKY when used PROPERLY is flawless like Byakuya described to Renji. SKY is not 1 shot pwn anyone deal. SKY is strong because it can't be escaped. If he keeps SKY up he's invunerable to almost all forms of attack and he can attack with it. it turns into a simple war of attrition. who's going to run out of energy first? the guy sitting under a shield or the person running around trying not to get hit?

Should grimmjaw try to right through SKY and take the damage to make the fatal hit in a "defenseless Byakuya" he'll be in for a rude awakening. Byakuya can use Kidou and SKY at the same time. How do we know this? in Senkei hit disabled Ichigo's arm with a white lighting spell. Senkei is still having his bankai up and using Kidou. So six rod light prison, then black coffin spell. and then finish it up with a little bit more SKY and GG

[Seff]

^ Flawed.

Released Grimmjow = Maxed VB Ichigo.

SKY>Maxed VB Ichigo?

No.

SKY=Bankai Ichigo.

Maxed VB Ichigo > Bankai Ichigo.

Therefore, Released Grimmjow = Maxed VB Ichigo > Bankai Ichigo = SKY

And i'd bet my house on desagarron being able to blast SKY to bits anyway. Hell, if Tensa Zangetsu being swung around can disperse SKY, any of Grimm's attacks could. (Because Grimm is faster and stronger than bankai Ichigo.)

[xxBluebird]

Zanga -
1. Ichigo still seemed better off than Grimmjow did, since he fought Noit afterwards too oO;
2. Ichigo nearly lost/lost against Byakuya too, because he couldn't move at all at a moment in that fight also. Ichigo's inner hollow appearing [to help him win the battle and give him an adrenaline rush or something like that] had the same effect as someone shouting "Don't diiee~~" [to help him win the battle and give him an adrenaline rush, like with Ogihci appearing]. So yup. Both fights were actually kind of similar, except Grimmjow was more dead-like.

And to Trollseffmon -
How exactly do you blast SKY to bits? o.o;; It's already in bits. Byakuya may be able to use all the little shards to block the Desagarron [if it's actually what I remember it is, which is a weaker but faster version of Cero...?] because he can basically use the layers and layers of petals to block it. So if the Desa blasts through one layer of SKY, Bya can just use another layer to reinforce the one that disintegrated-but-didn't. If that works, maybe. o_O;; *has no idea if this is actually plausible, but eh*

[SenpaiRetsu]

Zanga -
1. Ichigo still seemed better off than Grimmjow did, since he fought Noit afterwards too oO;
2. Ichigo nearly lost/lost against Byakuya too, because he couldn't move at all at a moment in that fight also. Ichigo's inner hollow appearing [to help him win the battle and give him an adrenaline rush or something like that] had the same effect as someone shouting "Don't diiee~~" [to help him win the battle and give him an adrenaline rush, like with Ogihci appearing]. So yup. Both fights were actually kind of similar, except Grimmjow was more dead-like.

And to Trollseffmon -
How exactly do you blast SKY to bits? o.o;; It's already in bits. Byakuya may be able to use all the little shards to block the Desagarron [if it's actually what I remember it is, which is a weaker but faster version of Cero...?] because he can basically use the layers and layers of petals to block it. So if the Desa blasts through one layer of SKY, Bya can just use another layer to reinforce the one that disintegrated-but-didn't. If that works, maybe. o_O;; *has no idea if this is actually plausible, but eh*

agreed

@Trollseffmon
Ichigo never blasted SKY to bits with Tensa Zangetsu. SKY is already in bits. he he deflected all of the petals, one time. which means he was waving his arm several thousand times per second. He could probably do that 1 more time, or 2 times at most, then his arm would fall off from exhaustion. That was uber plotkai anyway. If it wasn't why is it when he attacks grimmjaw or byakuya he doesn't wave his sword at several thousand times per second? if he did that who could block that? no one. that was plotkai.

VB Ichigo isn't that much stronger than Bankai Ichigo. If he were Ogichi would have destroyed Byakuya. Byakuya was able to evade 3 GT's from Ogichi, which nobody could probably do, not even Grimmy.

[Seff]

Erm, dispersed. Look that word up if you don't know what it means.

And no, Desagarron is not the weaker version of cero, that's bala.

and "it was plotkai and he swung it several thousand times a second."
No, he really didn't. It was far less than several thousand times a second, you're just talking bs now.

In any case, Grimmjow is faster than bankai Ichigo.

And;

"VB Ichigo isn't that much stronger than Bankai Ichigo."

Ok, that made me laugh. The difference is so small that bankai Ichigo gets his ass kicked by Grimmjow yet absolutely assrapes Grimm when the mask goes on. Mhm. And actually, in the manga, it seems to me a lot more like Ogichi fired the GTS with the intention of "luring" (FOR WANT OF A BETTER WORD) Byakuya into them.

Oh wait, was that plotkai too?

[SenpaiRetsu]

Erm, dispersed. Look that word up if you don't know what it means.

And no, Desagarron is not the weaker version of cero, that's bala.

and "it was plotkai and he swung it several thousand times a second."
No, he really didn't. It was far less than several thousand times a second, you're just talking bs now.

In any case, Grimmjow is faster than bankai Ichigo.

And;

"VB Ichigo isn't that much stronger than Bankai Ichigo."

Ok, that made me laugh. The difference is so small that bankai Ichigo gets his ass kicked by Grimmjow yet absolutely assrapes Grimm when the mask goes on. Mhm. And actually, in the manga, it seems to me a lot more like Ogichi fired the GTS with the intention of "luring" (FOR WANT OF A BETTER WORD) Byakuya into them.

Oh wait, was that plotkai too?

Ok i'll concede that VB ichigo is much stronger than bankai ichigo.

However how wasn't he swinging his sword at least a thousand times per second. think about it. if Byakuya's shikai is a thousand or so blades, Ichigo would have had to swung his sword a thousand times to deflect every blade. His bankai has countless blades meaning at least a few million. at a minimum he had to have swung his sword a few thousand times to block ever single blade. why do u think Byakuya looked so astonished?

[Haseo]

Uh.. if something is clumped together, when you hit it, you don't hit one thing, you hit a bunch of them. His sword swings were faster than the speed of the attacks themselves, pretty simple logic to me. If Ichigo can do it, so can Grimmjow - not that he'd even need to.

[The sunlight]

Current Ichigo + Mask = Roughly on Released Grimmjow's level.
Ogihci = Stronger than Ulquiorra.

Much bigger power difference.

That's what i Said. So you are basically saying i'm right. I said, Byakuya fought ogichi, and grimmjow fought ichigo + mask. That means byakuya fought an insanely powerful ichigo and was still standing, while grimmjow got beat by a weaker version.



Did you forget WHY that was? I'm pretty sure Ichigo can handle his Bankai's reaitsu now, he can fully control it (which means no more dropping stamina) so it'd be a much different fight.

Yeah ? A "better",controlled bankai ichigo can't even touch unreleased 6th, while the same byakuya easily stomps released 7th who has the fastest sonido. There is absolutely no proof that EVen if ichigo hadn't ran out of stamina so fast, he wouldve won (if it wasn't for his hollow coming out).


See above. Ogihci can use all of his Hollow Power and all of Ichigo's current Shinigami power, of course he's stronger.


Then what are you trying to say ? YOU read above


It was somewhat deflected/dodged. Ignoring the fact Ogihci was playing around with Byakuya.

It wasn't dodged. Ogichi fired three in a row, and when byakuya flash stepped backwards, ogichi grabbed him on the shoulder and fired one from there, directly on byakuya, while he got hit on the other side too by the 3 previously fired ones. And that was after the slash across the chest.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/09/
The anime shows it even better :
YouTube - Bleach my favorite battles: Hollow ichigo vs byakuya kuchiki


Grimmjow wasn't even released and was still standing himself. Grimmjow decimates Byakuya without releasing. He has the speed, power, and versatility to do so.

To what event are you referring ? if you are talking about the time when ichigo fired a getsuga tenshou at grimmjow (unreleased), that doesn't mean shit. First off all, it was bankai ichigo (without) the mask, second, he was holding back because he was afraid that his hollow would emerge, grimmjow blocked it, and on top of that, he was permanently scarred. Byakuya took way more.

[SenpaiRetsu]

ditto, what sunlight said

Byakuya was not only fast enough to dodge 3 GT's from Ogichi, but then got hit at POINT BLANK with at least one GT from Ogichi and was still standing. Obviously he can take a lot of punishment. Not even Ulq got hit with a full GT and was standing. sure he got back up and wtfpwnd ichigo after that but he still got at least knocked down.

Or are you going to say that Ogichi wasn't really trying to kill Byakuya that he was just holding back?

[smach]

r u guyz being serious or just trying to pass time?

SKY> Ichigo Ichigo= Grimmjaw SKY>Grimmjaw

SKY when used PROPERLY is flawless like Byakuya described to Renji. SKY is not 1 shot pwn anyone deal. SKY is strong because it can't be escaped. If he keeps SKY up he's invunerable to almost all forms of attack and he can attack with it. it turns into a simple war of attrition. who's going to run out of energy first? the guy sitting under a shield or the person running around trying not to get hit?

Should grimmjaw try to right through SKY and take the damage to make the fatal hit in a "defenseless Byakuya" he'll be in for a rude awakening. Byakuya can use Kidou and SKY at the same time. How do we know this? in Senkei hit disabled Ichigo's arm with a white lighting spell. Senkei is still having his bankai up and using Kidou. So six rod light prison, then black coffin spell. and then finish it up with a little bit more SKY and GGyet another retarded way of comparing the two.

SKY can't cut what ichigo can't cut.

grimjow won't give two shits for byakuya's little petal show coz they'll be literally like petals when they hit him.

grimjow will make a mockery of SKY and either punch a hole through his chest, give him a healthy dose of ceros, or kick/punch his ass through buildings.

senkei is byakuya using one sword at a time, not controlling countless petals. if he uses SKY then he won't be able to use any other attack during that time. if he uses senkei then he's running around with a sword, trying to fight a grimjow who sure as hell won't be losing energy and speed like rookie ichigo was. FFS even byakuya admitted that ichigo's speed was lower during senkei when compared to when he was going against SKY.

END.OF.STORY.

Zanga -
1. Ichigo still seemed better off than Grimmjow did, since he fought Noit afterwards too oO;yet another flawed perspective.

ichigo did jack shit to noitora. he was f*cked up from the fight with grimjow and noitora waited for their fight to end so he could get the easy victory. he said so himself.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/288/17/

2. Ichigo nearly lost/lost against Byakuya too, because he couldn't move at all at a moment in that fight also. Ichigo's inner hollow appearing [to help him win the battle and give him an adrenaline rush or something like that] had the same effect as someone shouting "Don't diiee~~" [to help him win the battle and give him an adrenaline rush, like with Ogihci appearing]. So yup. Both fights were actually kind of similar, except Grimmjow was more dead-like.please try to come up with more valid arguements the next time you post.

ichigo was a rookie back then. he was getting weaker from the moment he released his bankai at the hill coz he couldn't handle/tolerate the tremendous power. both byakuya and ogichi testified to this.

And to Trollseffmon -
How exactly do you blast SKY to bits? o.o;; It's already in bits. Byakuya may be able to use all the little shards to block the Desagarron [if it's actually what I remember it is, which is a weaker but faster version of Cero...?] because he can basically use the layers and layers of petals to block it. So if the Desa blasts through one layer of SKY, Bya can just use another layer to reinforce the one that disintegrated-but-didn't. If that works, maybe. o_O;; *has no idea if this is actually plausible, but eh*who says grim will even have to use the mega-claws? if he ends up releasing, all he has to do is destroy byakuya with a kick, punch, or the mini-claws he used on ichigo to split a building in half.

even if byakuya puts SKY on the defensive end, all he will accomplish is to reduce the amount of damage sustained, and would still not be able to injure grimjow.

That's what i Said. So you are basically saying i'm right. I said, Byakuya fought ogichi, and grimmjow fought ichigo + mask. That means byakuya fought an insanely powerful ichigo and was still standing, while grimmjow got beat by a weaker version.wow, your logic is just...flawless to say the least.

byakuya getting saved by ichigo, from an ogichi that was simply toying around in the first place, means he's stronger than the grimjow who lost to vizard ichigo, whose KGT is stronger than the normal bankai one used by ogichi...

Yeah ? A "better",controlled bankai ichigo can't even touch unreleased 6th, while the same byakuya easily stomps released 7th who has the fastest sonido. There is absolutely no proof that EVen if ichigo hadn't ran out of stamina so fast, he wouldve won (if it wasn't for his hollow coming out).a self-proclaimed title doesn't mean jack. all zomari did is make multiple clones of himself. if byakuya wanted to he could've used SKY right there and decimated all of them, or if he had yoruichi-level speed then he could wtfpwn all five copies in the blink of an eye.

and 7th's power isn't even comparable to 6th's and obove. grimjow and above need significant strength to be injured while renji and ishida can injure the rest with shikai and a normal bow.

jeez, the fact that 7th could be destroyed by sealed byakuya, while 6th needed a force greater than the one that beat byakuya, should be a clear indication in itself of the two espada's level of strength.

Then what are you trying to say ? YOU read aboveogichi and ichigo were about 50/50 at the hill, which is why ichigo could easily return to the throne. he went back to Karakura and ogichi, having dominated zangetsu, started gradually devouring ichigo's soul, to the point where he could gain dominance whenever ichigo called out zangetsu.

It wasn't dodged. Ogichi fired three in a row, and when byakuya flash stepped backwards, ogichi grabbed him on the shoulder and fired one from there, directly on byakuya, while he got hit on the other side too by the 3 previously fired ones. And that was after the slash across the chest.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/09/
The anime shows it even better :
YouTube - Bleach my favorite battles: Hollow ichigo vs byakuya kuchiki (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnmOeifPOd4)so what you're saying is that...shikai GT can make byakuya bleed w/o making direct contact, but bankai GT is soo weak that even 3hits can't do anything to byakuya..?

To what event are you referring ? if you are talking about the time when ichigo fired a getsuga tenshou at grimmjow (unreleased), that doesn't mean shit. First off all, it was bankai ichigo (without) the mask, second, he was holding back because he was afraid that his hollow would emerge, grimmjow blocked it, and on top of that, he was permanently scarred. Byakuya took way more.ichigo was holding back..? b-b-bu-bullshit. rukia had given him back his confidence and he was content with releasing. grimjow wtfpwned him with no effort. go reread ch212 if u still don't get the f*ckin picture.

this entire retarded argument is brought by the fact that certain individuals believe the KGTs used in SS are equivalent to those used by vizard ichigo, even though ogichi only showed us his true KGT during vizard training.

[Jay3205]

This shouldn't even be an argument. Byakuya loses in nearly everything to Grimmjaw. Unless someone can prove the following wrong, Byakuya is simply outmatched.

Grimmjaw's speed ~= Vaizard Ichigo's speed >> bankai Ichigo's speed >>> Byakuya's speed
Grimmjaw's power ~= Vaizard Ichigo's power >> bankai Ichigo's power ~= Byakuya's power
Grimmjaw's gran cero ~= Vaizard Ichigo's getsuga tenshou >>> any kidou Byakuya's done so far

[SenpaiRetsu]

@smach it's already been stated that SKY would shred Grimmy. if Zaraki can cut Nnoitora while patched i'm Byakuya in Bankai can cut a weaker opponent.

Ichigo defeated Zaraki and Byakuya due to plot purposes we all know this, i don't see why we keep comparing Ichigo fights. It's clear that Zaraki using kendo would have one shotted a shikai Ichigo end of story.

Byakuya didn't use any kidou till in Senka? Ichigo is completely defensless against kidou just like Renji is. Why didn't he hit Ichigo with six rod light prison? Easy it's to show us a good fight.

Byakuya is a master of all forms of shinigami combat. Ichigo is only a master of Shunpo. He is also a pretty good swordsman.

Zaraki or Byakuya>>Ichigo vaizard or not.

That was the purpose of the HM arc partially to show that the captains who got beat in SS arc are no pushovers, in fact they are much better than Ichigo. Grimmjaw is roughly on par with Ichigo. They both have immense speed, good melee skills, and a few energy attacks. Neither are particularly smart in combat. Grimmy has stood in front of a GT and a cero from Shinji, and had his arm cut off. by a tousen who he had seen unsheathing his sword. Grimmy and Ichigo are roughly equal and Byakuya over Ichigo so Byakuya over Grimmy

[Sub.Shinigami]

@smach it's already been stated that SKY would shred Grimmy. if Zaraki can cut Nnoitora while patched i'm Byakuya in Bankai can cut a weaker opponent.

Ichigo defeated Zaraki and Byakuya due to plot purposes we all know this, i don't see why we keep comparing Ichigo fights. It's clear that Zaraki using kendo would have one shotted a shikai Ichigo end of story.

Byakuya didn't use any kidou till in Senka? Ichigo is completely defensless against kidou just like Renji is. Why didn't he hit Ichigo with six rod light prison? Easy it's to show us a good fight.

Byakuya is a master of all forms of shinigami combat. Ichigo is only a master of Shunpo. He is also a pretty good swordsman.

Zaraki or Byakuya>>Ichigo vaizard or not.

That was the purpose of the HM arc partially to show that the captains who got beat in SS arc are no pushovers, in fact they are much better than Ichigo. Grimmjaw is roughly on par with Ichigo. They both have immense speed, good melee skills, and a few energy attacks. Neither are particularly smart in combat. Grimmy has stood in front of a GT and a cero from Shinji, and had his arm cut off. by a tousen who he had seen unsheathing his sword. Grimmy and Ichigo are roughly equal and Byakuya over Ichigo so Byakuya over Grimmy

Its not that simple in who can cut who, i'm pretty sure that in a battle of strength, a blow of zaraki is much more powerful than a hit from Byakuya. When Zaraki just swings his blade, he cuts down buildings in half, when Byakuya attacked he didn't make great hits, they were lots of not deep blows, look at renji full of cut marks, but did he lose a limb? I'm sure if Zaraki hit renji, he'd be in half (no offense to renji fans). And also, if Ichigo's bankai couldn't cut Grimmjow, why should Byakuya's be able to? Zaraki's kendo, that just proves all the more powerful a hit from Zaraki is from a hit from byakuya, which is why he was able to cut Noitorra because his attacks are more powerful and have more strength and impact.

Could Byakuya bind Zomari? No, probably its that it only works on people with little speed, when he fought Renji, Renji didn't at all have speed. So when he fought ichigo, it could be that Ichigo was to fast to bind him.

I think that Byakuya defeated Zomari easily because his form of bankai (that kind that becomes alot like thousands of separate ones, like rangikus) is Zomari's weakness. If it were just Byakuya, you saw that in no time he would have gotten to byakuya. But Zomari's weakness is that he can only control 50 things at a time. Which is why he lost, because byakuya could produce more than a million of those blossoms.

I say that Vaizard Ichigo > Byakuya

[Haseo]

Released Grimmjow is faster the Vaizard Bankai Ichigo. In fact, the only time Ichigo lands a hit is when he grabbed Grimmjow. Vs Byakuya, Ichigo was moving beyond the speed of light (afterimages = beyond speed of light to create duplicates [simple physics]) which is faster than anything Byakuya pulled out.

This very same Ichigo gave his all against Grimmjow (1st match) and was beaten.. probably to the point where he may have been preparing to fire another KGT; that seems pretty desperate to me.

Concerning Ogihci vs Byakuya.. Ogihci was toying with him CLEARLY with his motions and sounds, showing Ichigo how to use the Bankai properly. If you notice, you never actually see the attacks make contact with Byakuya.. it's hinted towards it, but given the damage inflicted by someone who's more powerful than Ulquiorra (at that time), it must have been avoided and deflected.

Vaizard Ichigo fired 2 pointblank KGT at Grimmjow, who still wasn't that badly injured afterwards and proceeded to beat his ass until Shinji showed up. He then was badly beaten (again), but managed to stand up afterwards and go on the attack AGAIN, but was stopped.

Also, using rankings concerning the Espada mean nothing. Mainly because all of them were matched up against themselves.

Byakuya vs Zomari: Battle of Speed.
Zaraki vs Nnoitra: Battle of Raw Power.
Mayuri vs Szayel: Battle of Brains.

The only time the rankings would make sense is if EVERYONE was stronger in ALL areas.

ex. Nnoitra being faster than Grimmjow (which he's not).

Please note that Shunpo/Sonido =/= Overall Speed. They are merely techniques.

Anyway, I have nothing else to say, so I bid you adieu.

[Jeggo]

While I do believe that Byakuya lost to Ichigo due to plot reasons , I cannot accept the fact that you are comparing him with Grimmjow.

Heck , he is one of the fastest characters in the show & he has shown amazing power and endurance. He has the 'killer instict , the will to fight' which seem to be so important in Bleach. He has ranged-energy attacks.

He went toe on toe with Vaizard Ichigo. Vaizard.

The Ogichi Byakuya fought , isn't neccessarily stronger than current Vaizard Ichigo. So please do not compare his KGT with Ichigo's. I am sure Ogichi can stomp on pretty much the majority of characters in Bleach (*points at Vaizard training chapters - hints of his strength* ) but he was clearly toying with Byakuya. Toying.

Even if that Ogichi >/= Current Vaizard Ichigo he was winning easily against Byakuya when he was toying with him.

Grimmjow = Vaizard Ichigo >/= Ogichi Byakuya fought.

p.s Byakuya has yet to show us his real powers. He wasn't 100% with Ichigo , and he sure wasn't 100% with Zomari. I repeat , we can't judge clearly as of now. *Has voted a draw*

[smach]

@smach it's already been stated that SKY would shred Grimmy. if Zaraki can cut Nnoitora while patched i'm Byakuya in Bankai can cut a weaker opponent.as you said, it's been STATED. by whom? don't know n don't care coz at the end of it all, it can't be proved, hence the retardedness of said statement.

Ichigo defeated Zaraki and Byakuya due to plot purposes we all know this, i don't see why we keep comparing Ichigo fights. It's clear that Zaraki using kendo would have one shotted a shikai Ichigo end of story.plotkai claims are bullshit esp in battle threads so don't go about trying to use them as evidence. zaraki's fight was about power, byakuya's was about speed...HM arc goes to show that speed doesn't mean jack shit when your sword can't cut your enemy. end of story.

Byakuya didn't use any kidou till in Senka? Ichigo is completely defensless against kidou just like Renji is. Why didn't he hit Ichigo with six rod light prison? Easy it's to show us a good fight.no, the point is he becomes completely immobile when using SKY, which makes him a sitting duck.

you don't have to defend urself from kidou when your speed is good enough. kidou requires incantations, hence its uselessness against characters who have shunpo.

if ichigo could evade then he would've avoided that lighting attack.
if renji was fast enough then he would've avoided the immobilization spell.

Byakuya is a master of all forms of shinigami combat. Ichigo is only a master of Shunpo. He is also a pretty good swordsman.bullshit. byakuya hasn't demonstrated any skills in hand-to-hand combat. therefore he's NOT "a master of all forms of shinigami combat" even though you claim he is.

byakuya can learn all the kidou he wants and it still won't mean shit when fighting someone as fast as ichigo or potentially faster.

Zaraki or Byakuya>>Ichigo vaizard or not.what are you talking about now?

That was the purpose of the HM arc partially to show that the captains who got beat in SS arc are no pushovers, in fact they are much better than Ichigo.except for byakuya, who fought a character with nothing but voodoo as his "attack power".

byakuya beating an espada significantly weaker than the one vizard ichigo beat means that byakuya's role in bleach is next to renji's, if not lower.

zaraki beating an espada stronger than the one vizard ichigo beat means that zaraki's strength is still badass, and byakuya can't compare to his strength....no matter what his devoted followers try to pull out of their asses.

Grimmjaw is roughly on par with Ichigo. They both have immense speed, good melee skills, and a few energy attacks. Neither are particularly smart in combat. Grimmy has stood in front of a GT and a cero from Shinji, and had his arm cut off. by a tousen who he had seen unsheathing his sword. Grimmy and Ichigo are roughly equal and Byakuya over Ichigo so Byakuya over Grimmythe stupidity of this argument deems it unworthy of any response whatsoever.

EDIT: as Esca and Jay and others have already pointed out, grimjow and vizard ichigo outclass byakuya in every vital element of battle. they're both stronger, faster, and possess attacks that are beyond anything byakuya has ever demonstrated.

[Zanga]

Zanga -
1. Ichigo still seemed better off than Grimmjow did, since he fought Noit afterwards too oO;
2. Ichigo nearly lost/lost against Byakuya too, because he couldn't move at all at a moment in that fight also. Ichigo's inner hollow appearing [to help him win the battle and give him an adrenaline rush or something like that] had the same effect as someone shouting "Don't diiee~~" [to help him win the battle and give him an adrenaline rush, like with Ogihci appearing]. So yup. Both fights were actually kind of similar, except Grimmjow was more dead-like.

And to Trollseffmon -
How exactly do you blast SKY to bits? o.o;; It's already in bits. Byakuya may be able to use all the little shards to block the Desagarron [if it's actually what I remember it is, which is a weaker but faster version of Cero...?] because he can basically use the layers and layers of petals to block it. So if the Desa blasts through one layer of SKY, Bya can just use another layer to reinforce the one that disintegrated-but-didn't. If that works, maybe. o_O;; *has no idea if this is actually plausible, but eh*

You still fail to understand what I was getting at. Ichigo basically LOST THAT FIGHT. Ichigo got a MAJOR powerup when Inoue cried out, so Ichigo with like 1/16 of his mask suddenly delivers a HUGE wound on Grimmjow. Are you going to pull out something to say that makes any sense? AT ALL??

And then Ichigo gets up and fights Grimmjow on even grounds for a bit once again. Despite getting murked and has his mask crumbling with each step he takes, and even through all this, Grimmjaw STILL impales Ichigo twice and musters out his strongest attack which pushes Ichigo back and guess what, he smashes it to bits after his Heroic, shounen-main-character speech.

And I don't get what you're saying by who was more dead-like =/

Byakuya took a wound to his hand by Ichigo's shikai Getsuga Tenshou, another wound to the other hand by Ichigo's bankai blade, basically parred with Ichigo with zanjutsu for the rest of the fight till Ichigo was exhausted then recieved a major slash from Ogichi and then had a stand off against Ichigo to see who's shoulder would burst in blood first, and guess what.

His sword was nowhere in sight. Ichigo crushed it.

Now with Grimmjaw. He received a small slash on his chest(anime over exaggerated this), a blast from Getsuga Tenshou head on(didn't phase him at all, even though he was taken by suprise), took that heavy slash from Ichigo's major powerup and was then stabbed by Ichigo.

Then his resurrection broke(just as Byakuya's zanpaktou was crushed). Then Grimmjaw got up, got ****ed by Noit was was still alive.

Seems pretty even to me.

p.s Byakuya has yet to show us his real powers. He wasn't 100% with Ichigo , and he sure wasn't 100% with Zomari. I repeat , we can't judge clearly as of now. *Has voted a draw*

The most Byakuya can show us Kidou. I'm pretty sure Kubo is done with SKY as it is. Giving it Gokei Senbonzakura might've been pushing it imo.

@smach it's already been stated that SKY would shred Grimmy. if Zaraki can cut Nnoitora while patched i'm Byakuya in Bankai can cut a weaker opponent.

Prove it? Bankai-less Ichigo took a bit and brushed it off, so who's to say a released Grimmjow, who's stronger then Vaizard Ichigo can't simply brush it off? And no, Byakuya tried with that attack. He wanted Ichigo dead, don't say he didn't try. Near the end of the fight, Byakuya praises Ichigo for taking a hit and getting back up, which means Byakuya tried.

And besides, you can't kill what you can't catch. SKY can't catch Pantera Grimmjaw. That's more of a fact then your little 'Sky can shred Grimmjaw' line.

Hell, Zomari took a direct hit from a special technique from SKY and only got a few cuts, and he's weaker then Grimmjaw. Comparing Byakuya's strength to Zaraki's strength is completly retarded. Kubo has shown us from time and time again that Zaraki is a physically powerful beast. He sliced a building in half effortlessly, diced up that huge boulder that Nnoitra threw at him with the flick of his wrist, both with only one hand. And we know what'll happen with he uses two hands.


VB Ichigo isn't that much stronger than Bankai Ichigo. If he were Ogichi would have destroyed Byakuya. Byakuya was able to evade 3 GT's from Ogichi, which nobody could probably do, not even Grimmy.

Uhm no? Evading comes from how fast you are. Grimmjaw is faster then Byakuya. Therefore Grimmjaw could've done the same. And Byakuya can take punishment from spirit blasts, but what spirit blast did released Grimmjaw show us?

All I saw were claws that would shred Byakuya limb from limb. And shootable spikes that can cause a large amounts of damage.

[SenpaiRetsu]

You guys are all speakin of Ichigo as if he's a tank. no Zaraki is a tank. the injurty that Ulq gave to Ichigo, one shotted him(hand in the chest). Zaraki got the same injury from Nnoitora and kept fighting.


As far as comparing Zaraki's strength and Byakuya's strength no way! i'm not comparing their physical strength. Obviously Zaraki's much physically stronger than all the captains, save Yamamoto. But is far as attack power is concerned SKY is definitely on par with a patched Zaraki.(@Smach)

also @smach if Byakuya didn't get hit with any of the KGT's then that makes him even more pwn that he could avoid 4 KGT, after he got slashed at point blank. clearly it shows Bya's skill level is godly.

@the Byakuya comment. yes Byakuya was surprised that Ichigo got up after getting hit with SKY. but as both i have and the late great diamondedge have proved is that SKY is not an attack it is meant to be effective in one hit. If Byakuya lays SKY on someone for even a minute, it's over.

SKY can catch anyone, no one can escape SKY indefinitely. the only way to be SKY is:

A. to have a force field that protects you from it
B. Your riatsu is strong strong the blades can't even cut you
C. you can take getting hit by it and blast straight through it
D. you can teleport.
E. Some super hax instant heal ability
F. Illusion of some sort

Grimmjaw is none of the above. Initially Grimmy would be to fast for SKY but he would tire, everything he stopped to launch a Cero or his spikes SKY would be all over him.

[Sub.Shinigami]

Grimmjaw is none of the above. Initially Grimmy would be to fast for SKY but he would tire, everything he stopped to launch a Cero or his spikes SKY would be all over him.

lol nope

Grimmjow flew all over the city going from one point to another, and didn't at all look tired. Especially if he released, it'd be over for byakuya. If ichigo in bankai caught Byakuya off guard enough to get the blade 1 cm from his throat, i'm pretty sure that his released form would be way more than enough to get Byakuya before he even knows it.

A direct of Getsuga tenshou in ichigo's bankai form made a mere scar on grimmjow which after wards he just looked like nothing had happened, i bet that would have taken the breathe or even the life out of Byakuya.

Grimmjow was stabbed in the chest by VB Ichigo with the bankai, got back up to fight, got hit directly by the 5th espada, and still maintained conciousness. I don't think Byakuya's "sky" would defeat Grimmjow at all within a minute or defeat him at all.

[Chi]

Where is everybody getting this rediculous notion that Ogichi's GT didn't do anything to Byakuya? I am curious because last i checked KGT could be directed hence why they all collapsed on Byakuy after he cought him from the rear. Then We see byakuya all bloody and and his lil hair piece falling apart. So where is this he dodged it coming from show me cause i don't see it.

[SenpaiRetsu]

Where is everybody getting this rediculous notion that Ogichi's GT didn't do anything to Byakuya? I am curious because last i checked KGT could be directed hence why they all collapsed on Byakuy after he cought him from the rear. Then We see byakuya all bloody and and his lil hair piece falling apart. So where is this he dodged it coming from show me cause i don't see it.

He had to have dodged it and got hit with the consussive force of the two colliding together. think about it. if Byakuya got hit with to KGT's simultaneously, do you really think he'd even be in one piece? much less stand. no way he got directly hit by them. it's just too strong of an attack to only draw a little blood and break a hairpiece.

[Zanga]

I don't get your point? Ok Byakuya took on some KGT's very nicely. Well done. Because Released Grimmjaw clearly shoots out energy blast right?

Oh wait..

And Grimmjaw has more then enough speed to keep up with Byakuya, he's not going to do anything with SKY if Grimmjaw's constantly beside him right? He'll be risking injuries to himself.

And ofcourse SKY will cut Grimmjaw...eventually. It won't cut any type of flesh on the first attack. I'll mail you my balls if it does. Grimmjaw can brush off a couple attacks and rip Byakuya to shreds.

[Klavier Gavin]

Grimmjow, for all the stated points above. Byakuya would be able to cut Grimmjow unreleased, and might put up a good fight. If Grimmjow released, the end of Byakuya is near.

[smach]

and byakuya will succeed in putting a scratch on grimjow because..?

You guys are all speakin of Ichigo as if he's a tank. no Zaraki is a tank. the injurty that Ulq gave to Ichigo, one shotted him(hand in the chest). Zaraki got the same injury from Nnoitora and kept fighting.please make no mistake and recognize that VIZARD ichigo is a tank.
regular cero = moot
mega cero = moot
super-punch = moot *through multiple buildings, btw*
mini-claw = moot
kick = moot
spinning kick = moot
5 stakes = significant injury

now, for which of those seven attacks do you suppose that byakuya would end up in a situation even remotely close to ichigo's?

As far as comparing Zaraki's strength and Byakuya's strength no way! i'm not comparing their physical strength. Obviously Zaraki's much physically stronger than all the captains, save Yamamoto. But is far as attack power is concerned SKY is definitely on par with a patched Zaraki.(@Smach)nope, this goes back to the assumption brought up in the byakuya/noitora thread...that hierro can be penetrated through repeated attacks.

byakuya's bankai destroys buildings by hitting them REPEATEDLY with millions of tiny blades. zaraki slices buildings in half with ONE swing of his blade.

in other words, byakuya's attack power is strength in numbers/repetition while zaraki's is strength in pure power (aka brute force).

byakuya can have billions, trillions, or even gazillions of petals but they'll still be 1000% moot against 6th and higher coz their hierro is just that damn good.

also @smach if Byakuya didn't get hit with any of the KGT's then that makes him even more pwn that he could avoid 4 KGT, after he got slashed at point blank. clearly it shows Bya's skill level is godly.i could honestly care less about that situation coz not only was ogichi simply joking around, but he fired bankai KGTs, not vizard KGTs, which is one of the key reasons u believe byakuya >= grimjow.

also, why are you trying to praise byakuya when a large percentage of his energy was drained by ogichi's joyful barrage of random attacks? what difference does it make for byakuya to be left near-dead by an ogichi that was merely playing around at bankai-ichigo's power level?

ogichi destroyed byakuya with bankai ichigo's speed and bankai GTs; none of his attacks were at vizard level. that's why i don't get the point of your argument.

@the Byakuya comment. yes Byakuya was surprised that Ichigo got up after getting hit with SKY. but as both i have and the late great diamondedge have proved is that SKY is not an attack it is meant to be effective in one hit. If Byakuya lays SKY on someone for even a minute, it's over.again, SKY is comprised of millions of tiny blades being directed at an opponent. none of those blades has the power necessary to penetrate strong hierro, so throwing thousands-millions of them at grimjow or higher isn't gonna have any effect whatsoever.

dia didn't prove your claims to be true, all she did (along with Undy) is come up with the axe/chainsaw theory and claim it to be applicable in a potential fight with noitora.

SKY can catch anyone, no one can escape SKY indefinitely. the only way to be SKY is:

A. to have a force field that protects you from it
B. Your riatsu is strong strong the blades can't even cut you
C. you can take getting hit by it and blast straight through it
D. you can teleport.
E. Some super hax instant heal ability
F. Illusion of some sortA. so far nobody has shown that ability (in bleach, that is).
B. which is grimjow's case exactly...along with those espada that are above him.
C. obviously all those included in B fit the same category.
D. as if having B+C won't be enough.
E. noitora to the rescue!
F. aizen...

Grimmjaw is none of the above. Initially Grimmy would be to fast for SKY but he would tire, everything he stopped to launch a Cero or his spikes SKY would be all over him.grimjow bursts right through SKY and acquiring no injuries whatsoever and...

you can do the honor of picking how byakuya will meet his demise:
A. he impales byakuya in the chest.
B. he fires a cero at point-blank range
C. he kicks n punches byakuya into oblivion
D. he pulls out his sword and
i) skewers him
ii) chops his head off
E. he releases and uses
i) a mini-claw attack
ii) a mega-claw attack
iii) a mega-kick
iv) a mega-punch

[SenpaiRetsu]

Y'all are missing the point, Byakuya would have never gotten hit with those attacks because it's already been shown he's faster than the fastest espada. the fastest espada wasn't able to lay a hand on him, what makes you think Grimmjaw would be able to.

Byakuya is a tank he fought Ichigo, Ogichi, and took a stab to the chest from Gin and is walking around like nothing happened. he cut he limbs to his arm and leg and was STILL able to shunpo. it wasn't a half assed shunpo, it was the real deal.

Byakuya never took Ichigo seriously obviously, Ichigo was a human. There probably has never been a human in all of history with Ichigo's power, or at the very least Byakuya's lifetime. Byakuya would not make the same mistake with an espada.

You saw the fight he had with Jin(the bounto leader) when Byakuya is serious. he fought and opponent with a shield and hax healing abilities and still look like he had the upperhand. Grimmy is not more dangerous than Jin was, he could even absorb the soul society himself more powerful.

[FullMetal Rebel]

The fanboy within me wants Byakuya to win, but the course of time and facts favor Grimmjow. Arguing on Byakuya's side would be making a fool of myself for the sake of seeing my favorite character become the victor.

[xxBluebird]

If my last post confused people -
By "more dead-like" I mean, more like 3/4 dead than half dead. So basically more bloody, beaten up, etc. ...if that makes sense?
And I'm basically saying that Ogihci giving Ichigo a powerup [Byakuya vs Ichigo] is similar to Inoue going "Don't die" and giving Ichigo a powerup. By powerup I mean suddenly really strong even though just a few moments before he couldn't move at all or was too messed up to. Ichigo could've lost both fights, not just when he fought Grimmjow. So if Inoue's comment is plotkai, so is Ogihci because they both gave the same effect [Ichigo is basically defeated, then something happens and he is suddenly PWNAGE]. Plus, what does Ichigo being a rookie have anything to do with it? >_<;;

Also, thing is, even if Ichigo did nothing to Noit damage-wise, he was still actually able to fight [or at least last a little while]. So he still ended up a lot better off than Grimmjow.
Byakuya putting SKY on defense - he doesn't necessarily have to use all of the sword-petal-things to do that, but I guess unless he's good at multitasking with little pink petal swords that's not going to do loads of good xD [[Senbonzakura would actually be pretty useful for being both defence and attack at the same time, I think.]]

Byakuya would also wtfpwn if he ever actually used Senkei SKY all at once instead of each sword one by one, although that's probably not gonna happen because although he [I]could, he won't, because that's the reputation he's giving Senkei SKY. And him not showing any skills in hand-to-hand combat either means he doesn't have any, or does but doesn't need to use them.

[Bya vs Ichi] Did Ichigo crush up Byakuya's sword? o_O; Because it sure didn't seem that way to me. Then again my memory is extremely tacky.

I don't think he's totally unable to move if he's in Senkei SKY either, because hey, does it ever even say anything along those lines? oO;

[DannOrly]

I'd have to say Grimmjow would win hands down. The fact remains that Ichigo beat Byakuya when he was much weaker than he is now, and Ichigo barely beat Grimmjow as he is... But who knows? That'd be up to Tite to decide, really. haha

[Nakata]

I really like grimmjow...but Byakuya would win without a doubt.

[smach]

Y'all are missing the point, Byakuya would have never gotten hit with those attacks because it's already been shown he's faster than the fastest espada. the fastest espada wasn't able to lay a hand on him, what makes you think Grimmjaw would be able to.making copies of yourself doesn't mean you're "the fastest espada" and haven't i repeatedly said that self-proclaimed titles don't account for jack..? otherwise noitora is indeed the strongest arancar, which means aizen was high on something when he ranked him fifth.

Byakuya is a tank he fought Ichigo, Ogichi, and took a stab to the chest from Gin and is walking around like nothing happened. he cut he limbs to his arm and leg and was STILL able to shunpo. it wasn't a half assed shunpo, it was the real deal.fanboyism FTL.

first off, quit making it seem dramatic that he lost to ogichi coz ogichi used the power of TZ to kick his ass, not hollow/vizard powers. byakuya essentially lost to the same exact ichigo he was fighting at the beginning of the fight.

and what is this bullshit you talk about him "walking around like nothing happened" in SS? please stop getting spoonfed by ur buddies and look things up yourself.

also, who gives a damn if he's able to use shunpo against an immobile subject? are you trying to imply that he would still fare well against grimjow after losing one arm and one leg?

Byakuya never took Ichigo seriously obviously, Ichigo was a human. There probably has never been a human in all of history with Ichigo's power, or at the very least Byakuya's lifetime. Byakuya would not make the same mistake with an espada.oh shut up please. byakuya took ichigo seriously FROM THE FIRST TIME THEY MET. again, i suggest you stop taking advice from ur late great friend and think about how much sense your argument is making. if there's anyone that wasn't taking the fight seriously then it's gotta be ichigo, who wasn't fighting to kill FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.

You saw the fight he had with Jin(the bounto leader) when Byakuya is serious. he fought and opponent with a shield and hax healing abilities and still look like he had the upperhand. Grimmy is not more dangerous than Jin was, he could even absorb the soul society himself more powerful.filler character = non-cannon = BS.

but if u wanna bring them up, then i urge you to remember who fought the final haxed-up jin, and who stood a large distance away in shock n awe at the KGT that was unleashed on jin.

also, since you're now persistent on filler characters, it was ichigo that beat super-jin, which just goes to show his cred even more.

If my last post confused people -
By "more dead-like" I mean, more like 3/4 dead than half dead. So basically more bloody, beaten up, etc. ...if that makes sense?
And I'm basically saying that Ogihci giving Ichigo a powerup is similar to Inoue going "Don't die" and giving Ichigo a powerup. By powerup I mean suddenly really strong even though just a few moments before he couldn't move at all or was too messed up to. Ichigo could've lost both fights, not just when he fought Grimmjow. So if Inoue's comment is plotkai, so is Ogihci because they both gave the same effect [Ichigo is basically defeated, then something happens and he is suddenly PWNAGE]. Plus, what does Ichigo being a rookie have anything to do with it? >_<;;u guys need to srsly STFU n get a clue. ichigo losing power coz he's not used to his bankai is IN NO WAY similar to receiving FIVE STAKES IN THE BACK, each with enough power to DESTROY AN ENTIRE BUILDING.

Also, thing is, even if Ichigo did nothing to Noit damage-wise, he was still actually able to fight [or at least last a little while]. So he still ended up a lot better off than Grimmjow.exactly what is this argument even supposed to do or mean?

Byakuya putting SKY on defense - he doesn't necessarily have to use all of the sword-petal-things to do that, but I guess unless he's good at multitasking with little pink petal swords that's not going to do loads of good xD [[Senbonzakura would actually be pretty useful for being both defence and attack at the same time, I think.]]get it into ur head that SKY can't penetrate espadas 6-1

Byakuya would also wtfpwn if he ever actually used Senkei SKY all at once instead of each sword one by one, although that's probably not gonna happen because although he [I]could, he won't, because that's the reputation he's giving Senkei SKY. And him not showing any skills in hand-to-hand combat either means he doesn't have any, or does but doesn't need to use them.more BS arguments. if a character hasn't hinted or shown a certain ability then you can't assume they have it.

[Bya vs Ichi] Did Ichigo crush up Byakuya's sword? o_O; Because it sure didn't seem that way to me. Then again my memory is extremely tacky.then for the love of all that is holy, do us all a favor: quit arguing and go refresh your memory.

I don't think he's totally unable to move if he's in Senkei SKY either, because hey, does it ever even say anything along those lines? oO;he can't move when using SKY, which is moot against grimjow (both sealed and released), hence the mootness of ur argument.

senkei = multiple swords = moot when he doesn't even have the necessary power to put a scratch on grimjow.

also, for a byakuya-fan, how is it that you don't know the difference between SKY and senkei?



[B]EDIT: here's a suggestion for u guys.

ichigo needed a drastic power-up to fight grimjow on equal grounds, and his MAJOR powerup roughly put his abilities on par with grimjow. since the old ichigo was the one that crushed byakuya's sword, exactly, what has byakuya gained that would put him on par with current ichigo?

at least with zaraki we know he's a beast so "getting used to your hardness" isn't a stretch for the patchman. but when it comes to byakuya, we've already seen him use just about everything he's got in his bag of tricks, and his hax power only ended up losing against bankai ichigo, who got wtfpwned by sealed grim, who lost in a close fight against vizard ichigo.

[The sunlight]

wow, your logic is just...flawless to say the least.

byakuya getting saved by ichigo, from an ogichi that was simply toying around in the first place, means he's stronger than the grimjow who lost to vizard ichigo, whose KGT is stronger than the normal bankai one used by ogichi...

Says who ? a "toying" KGT from ogichi could be as powerful or even more then a serious current vaizard ichigo. A "toying" ogichi could be more powerful then a serious vaizard ichigo. So, yeah, its possible.

a self-proclaimed title doesn't mean jack. all zomari did is make multiple clones of himself. if byakuya wanted to he could've used SKY right there and decimated all of them, or if he had yoruichi-level speed then he could wtfpwn all five copies in the blink of an eye.

and 7th's power isn't even comparable to 6th's and obove. grimjow and above need significant strength to be injured while renji and ishida can injure the rest with shikai and a normal bow.

I'm not saying 7th is "almost" as powerful as grimmjow, i'm saying byakuya's level was so much above 7Th that he could easily handle way more, since byakuya wasn't hardly taking Zomari serious, putting byakuya more on grimmjow's level.

jeez, the fact that 7th could be destroyed by sealed byakuya, while 6th needed a force greater than the one that beat byakuya, should be a clear indication in itself of the two espada's level of strength.

Not what i'm arguing about. Read above.

ogichi and ichigo were about 50/50 at the hill, which is why ichigo could easily return to the throne. he went back to Karakura and ogichi, having dominated zangetsu, started gradually devouring ichigo's soul, to the point where he could gain dominance whenever ichigo called out zangetsu.

What does this have to do with anything ? ichigo was "50" because ogichi wasn't taking him over so badly yet. Ogichi was still way stronger.

so what you're saying is that...shikai GT can make byakuya bleed w/o making direct contact, but bankai GT is soo weak that even 3hits can't do anything to byakuya..?

Ist off all, bankai GT didn't do byakuya "anything", in fact, he was seriously damaged AND bleeding. I'm just saying he took it without dying/passing out. Besides, byakuya wasnt nearly pumped up with reiatsu when he got hit by the shikai GT then when he was fighting in senkei/

ichigo was holding back..? b-b-bu-bullshit. rukia had given him back his confidence and he was content with releasing. grimjow wtfpwned him with no effort. go reread ch212 if u still don't get the f*ckin picture.


Did i say grimmjow didn't pwn him ? u are making things up. I said ichigo was holding back his GT because he was scared. Go read yourself.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/212/05/

this entire retarded argument is brought by the fact that certain individuals believe the KGTs used in SS are equivalent to those used by vizard ichigo, even though ogichi only showed us his true KGT during vizard training.


When whas it proved that KGT in ss < Vaizard KGT ?

[smach]

Says who ? a "toying" KGT from ogichi could be as powerful or even more then a serious current vaizard ichigo. A "toying" ogichi could be more powerful then a serious vaizard ichigo. So, yeah, its possible.except for the fact that not only did ogichi tell ichigo he'd show him how to use the power of bankai, but:
1) those KGTs are the same size as the ones bankai ichigo lets out, not uber like the ones vizard ichigo lets out
2) ichigo first refers to the KGT as ogichi's move, and it isn't said or shown anywhere that his KGTs are weaker than ogichi's.

I'm not saying 7th is "almost" as powerful as grimmjow, i'm saying byakuya's level was so much above 7Th that he could easily handle way more, since byakuya wasn't hardly taking Zomari serious, putting byakuya more on grimmjow's level.bankai ichigo can handle zomri with ease. end of story.

and you still haven't brought anything to the table to prove that byakuya has as much strength as vizard ichigo.

Not what i'm arguing about. Read above.the arguement that byakuya owned a character far weaker than grimjow doesn't mean he'd also destroy grimjow. there are so may factors you still haven't proved to support ur idea, like how the hell byakuya would match grimjow or ichigo in speed or pure power. the rest of ur argument is bogus when you fail to understand such simple factors, let alone provide any proof of how byakuya would overcome these obstacles.

What does this have to do with anything ? ichigo was "50" because ogichi wasn't taking him over so badly yet. Ogichi was still way stronger.their strength shouldn't even come into question when the attacks used were at the level of bankai ichigo and light-years behind those of vizard bankai ichigo.

Ist off all, bankai GT didn't do byakuya "anything", in fact, he was seriously damaged AND bleeding. I'm just saying he took it without dying/passing out. Besides, byakuya wasnt nearly pumped up with reiatsu when he got hit by the shikai GT then when he was fighting in senkei/don't rlly get what you're trying to say but wateva. byakuya was panting and also ADMITTED to having little energy left, thanks to ogichi...whose attacks in SS aren't even comparable to vizard ichigo's, let alone grimjow's kicks/punches.

Did i say grimmjow didn't pwn him ? u are making things up. I said ichigo was holding back his GT because he was scared. Go read yourself.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/212/05/ichigo is shocked at the uselessness of his "strongest attack" and ogichi starts to slowly gain control, so he starts to panic. how was he "holding back" when 1) most of his energy was already gone, 2) ogichi was starting to surface, and 3) his "strongest attack" didn't even phase grimjow the slightest?

maybe u should read the whole chapter yourself coz u seem to forget that grimjow blatantly said what was obvious from the very begining: IT'S PLAIN TO SEE THAT THE ONE WHO BARELY ESCAPED WITH HIS LIFE IS LIFE...IS YOU, SHINIGAMI.

and now u try to use that as proof that byakuya would fare well against grimjow..?

When whas it proved that KGT in ss < Vaizard KGT ?show me where it was proved that:
- ogichi lied when he said he'd show ichigo how to use the power of bankai
- ogichi in SS was as powerful as the ogichi in vizard training, who had control over most of ichigo's soul.
- ichigo forgot to mention that the KGT he fired at grimjow was WEAKER than ogichi's
- each one of THESE THREE (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/08/) is even comparable to ONE OF THESE (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/231/15/) or THESE (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/270/23/) or THESE (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/281/18/) or even THIS (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/270/19/)

[Lightey]

I might have answered this already but ithink grimmy takes this

[Sub.Shinigami]

Y'all are missing the point, Byakuya would have never gotten hit with those attacks because it's already been shown he's faster than the fastest espada. the fastest espada wasn't able to lay a hand on him, what makes you think Grimmjaw would be able to.

Byakuya is a tank he fought Ichigo, Ogichi, and took a stab to the chest from Gin and is walking around like nothing happened. he cut he limbs to his arm and leg and was STILL able to shunpo. it wasn't a half assed shunpo, it was the real deal.

Byakuya never took Ichigo seriously obviously, Ichigo was a human.

Then why did he get hit by Ichigo's attacks?
Grimmjow is faster than Ichigo's bankai which was faster than byakuya's bankai. So if grimmjow is faster than ichigo, who was able to get to byakuya even to the throat multiple times, why don't you think that Grimmjow not even in his released state can't lay a hand on Byakuya?
Especially if Grimmjow were to release against him.

Again, Ogichi was toying with him as previously stated.

If Byakuya never took Ichigo seriuously then why did he go through all the stages of his bankai xD
See how Grimmjow didn't take ichigo seriously the first time?
Not using a zampakto, only using his hands. That is not taking someone seriously, not when someone has to go through all stages of their bankai.

[Jay3205]

Byakuya is not necessarily faster than the espada with the fastest sonido. For one, shunpo speed and combat agility are different. If they weren't, then Ichigo would be in a constant shunpo state while fighting (ala DBZ). Also, Byakuya used a trick to fake out the espada, and that trick isn't going to work forever... especially if Grimmjow starts to use cero to blast away large areas.

After speed issues, we still have the fact that Byakuya's bankai doesn't severely injure Ichigo. It'll do less damage to someone with iron skin and is stronger.

[Zanga]

Byakuya would also wtfpwn if he ever actually used Senkei SKY all at once instead of each sword one by one, although that's probably not gonna happen because although he could, he won't, because that's the reputation he's giving Senkei SKY. And him not showing any skills in hand-to-hand combat either means he doesn't have any, or does but doesn't need to use them.

[Bya vs Ichi] Did Ichigo crush up Byakuya's sword? o_O; Because it sure didn't seem that way to me. Then again my memory is extremely tacky.

I don't think he's totally unable to move if he's in Senkei SKY either, because hey, does it ever even say anything along those lines? oO;

Again, Byakuya won't make all the blades rain down upon Grimmjaw if he sonido's beside Byakuya. Why? Cause he's faster than Byakuya, and Senkei SKY is a Dome, meaning he's trapped himself with someone much faster in a small, compressed area, meaning Grimmjaw will be on him at all times. Byakuya shunpo'ing away will only make it harder for the raining blades to hit their target.

The final strike between the two has Ichigo defeating Hakurein which led to the Byakuya having no blade. And the crushing blade thing was my reply to your Grimmjaw's ressurection breaking argument, since a zanpaktou being shattered is equivalent to that.

[SenpaiRetsu]

@Smach what are you talking about how is Ogichi using different attacks than vaizard Ichigo? He said "let me show you how to use bankai" so what? that doesn't mean his attacks were weaker. It meant exactly that, let me show you how to use your bankai.

as it is clearly shown here
http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000225/06.jpg

he can use his mask in any from bankai or shikai just like the rest of the vaizards.

He is using a KGT Ogichi's move here it shows it, Byakuya comments on it

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000166/06.jpg

You all say Ogichi is "toying" with Byakuya. Maybe so but this Ogichi is much stronger than Vaizard Ichigo in his current phase. The current Ichigo can't even beat Ulq. Not that Ulq is weak by any means. But if Ichigo has any chance of beating Aizen he needs to fight like Ogichi, with a killer instinct.

That is the main difference between byakuya and Ichigo, Byakuya has the killer instinct and Ichigo doesn't that makes him weaker.

You said Ichigo is a tank right? well SKY cut him just fine. why do you think he was running from it? SKY could easily destory Ichigo. As far as i know in no phase does Ichigo's defense ever increase just his speed and attack power.

Grimmy has better defense than Ichigo for sure, but not so good that he wouldn't have to fear SKY.

@Panther king Byakuya didn't have to go through all his stages they did that to show what it looks like. We all know Ichigo's would have tired because he couldn't handle his bankai at the time. SKY would have been enough.

@Smach Byakuya can move in SKY!! what are u talking about? of course he can move. He can move during Senkei which is the same thing as SKY except the condenses the blades into swords. and he said himself he can control all the swords at one time if he wants to but he will only use one at a time. If he control all the swords at once which are the exact same petals as SKY how can he not move in SKY but can move in Senkei?

When Renji rushed at Byakuya after getting hit by SKY what did Byakuya do? Renji got up and Byakuya did this:
http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000143/10.jpg

he shot some swords at Renji while STILL in SKY. he was moving and talking. He can do whatever he wants with SKY, he could have made them axes or balloons. he can do what he wants.

[smach]

@Smach what are you talking about how is Ogichi using different attacks than vaizard Ichigo? He said "let me show you how to use bankai" so what? that doesn't mean his attacks were weaker. It meant exactly that, let me show you how to use your bankai.

as it is clearly shown here
http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000225/06.jpg

he can use his mask in any from bankai or shikai just like the rest of the vaizards.

He is using a KGT Ogichi's move here it shows it, Byakuya comments on it

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000166/06.jpgthe point is that no matter how u try to twist it, ogichi used power that's at bankai ichigo's level, not even close to vizard ichigo's level.

i didn't say the attacks were different, but on DIFFERENT LEVELS.

ogichi used bankai-ichigo level of power. otherwise, all of ogichi's KGTs in SS should've been as big as the one he fired in the inner world battle, or @least on par with those used by vizard ichigo. which wasn't the case at all...and if grimjow was completely bloodied up by ONLY ONE then byakuya should've died from getting hit by three.

You all say Ogichi is "toying" with Byakuya. Maybe so but this Ogichi is much stronger than Vaizard Ichigo in his current phase. The current Ichigo can't even beat Ulq. Not that Ulq is weak by any means. But if Ichigo has any chance of beating Aizen he needs to fight like Ogichi, with a killer instinct.that is just your bullshit claim to make it seem like byakuya is uber and put him on par with grimjow.

and you're going off topic again; how are ulquiorra and aizen even related to the subject at hand?

That is the main difference between byakuya and Ichigo, Byakuya has the killer instinct and Ichigo doesn't that makes him weaker.in case u didn't notice:
ichigo w/o instinct > byakuya
vizard ichigo w/o instinct >>> byakuya
vizard ichigo WITH instinct >>>>> byakuya

You said Ichigo is a tank right? well SKY cut him just fine. why do you think he was running from it? SKY could easily destory Ichigo. As far as i know in no phase does Ichigo's defense ever increase just his speed and attack power.get ur facts straight...go reread what i said or STFU.

and just coz SKY managed to put scratches on ichigo doesn't mean it'll do the same to grimjow, whose skin is apparently beyond what any byaku-fan can comprehend.

Grimmy has better defense than Ichigo for sure, but not so good that he wouldn't have to fear SKY.you STILL fail to prove that SKY will even manage to put a paper-cut scratch on grimjow.

@Panther king Byakuya didn't have to go through all his stages they did that to show what it looks like. We all know Ichigo's would have tired because he couldn't handle his bankai at the time. SKY would have been enough.and we also know that a well-conditioned bankai ichigo would beat his ass, WITH EASE.

@Smach Byakuya can move in SKY!! what are u talking about? of course he can move. He can move during Senkei which is the same thing as SKY except the condenses the blades into swords. and he said himself he can control all the swords at one time if he wants to but he will only use one at a time. If he control all the swords at once which are the exact same petals as SKY how can he not move in SKY but can move in Senkei?get ur facts straight:
SKY = base kageyoshi
senkei = swords froming a dome-shaped thingy
hakuteiken = hax sword

in senkei he uses one sword at a time and runs around with it. in SKY he either controls the petals or moves around. never was he simultaneously doing two things at once.

When Renji rushed at Byakuya after getting hit by SKY what did Byakuya do? Renji got up and Byakuya did this:
http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000143/10.jpg

he shot some swords at Renji while STILL in SKY. he was moving and talking. He can do whatever he wants with SKY, he could have made them axes or balloons. he can do what he wants.simultaneously? HELL-TO-THA-NO.

[captainmawaluigi]

Why do people ignore logic, when making such statements and posts?

Grim can win, cuz he can out run Sky.

Niisama sliced the FASTEST espada, not once, 5 freaking times.....Im sure he can catch Grim

Why do people think Ichigo, is the only one who is getting stronger, or the only one who has yet to show his trump card? That guy with the triple spear had more than shikai, yet refused to use it in SS.

Niisama had other techniques and attacks he could have used on Ichigo(he could have went all out with this swords, he could of used kidou while chasing Ichigo with sky, he even said, while fighting the 7th espada, I didnt want to use the technique that SHE taught me, meaning, he has more techniques, yet, due to his high class, he tries to win without showing his all.

[smach]

let's see:
1) ichigo needed a major powerup to fight on par with grim
2) zaraki's badassness allowed him to land blows that are on par with vizard ichigo's (if not stronger)
3) byakuya made a copy of himself to fool an opponent who was using the SAME EXACT TECHNIQUE on him

o'yea, that obviously means he can fight at vizard ichigo's power level and close to bankai ichigo's speed level.

thank you for chipping in with that bulletproof argument of yours.

[ninjabot]

The hilarity of this thread is that everyone who voted for Grimmjow did so for the right reasons...but as they continue on Grimmjow's strength starts getting overrated. Byakuya is no weakling. I mean, look at this:

1: Speed difference. The difference in speed isn't as big as it was during the Byakuya vs. Ichigo fight. Byakuya's speed now is not the same speed he had back during the SS arc. Likewise, regular movement speed does not trump Shunpo speed. Sure, Grimmjow can sustain a high top speed since he's actually moving himself rather than using Sonido, but that takes the instantaneous nature out of his attacks. The fact that when Grim moves, you will see him move makes his speed less spectacular compared to Leroux or Byakuya because when Byakuya moves, there's no trace left behind. It'll be way easier to get a bead on Grim than Byakuya. Also, good luck hitting a master of Shunpo with a projectile...it's funny that earlier I said that one stake to the torso would end Byakuya, but common sense proves that that one stake will never hit. Ever.

2: Difference in power. Yeah, there's a big difference...but the difference is being rediculously overestimated. Grimmjow is the 6th espada. That means he has a few battle statistics that place his worth in battle above 7th. He wasn't placed above Leroux based on speed, as we know he's slower than Leroux. He wasn't placed above him based on special ability either, because the ability to control your opponent>elbow spikes. So what does that leave? Pure strength...as in attack power and defense power. Harder blows and tougher armor. In other words, he is stronger than Leroux.

Which is funny, considering the fact that Byakuya is also stronger than Leroux. Vastly. When you look at the two as one guy who's strong enough to kill the 7th Espada in 2 strikes, and the other guy is strong enough to be placed one rank above him, it puts the two alot closer on the power scale, Grimm taking the advantage due to hierro. A clash of blows between the two doesn't result in Byakuya's sword breaking, or him being launched through a building. It's simply a clash.

Also, if Byakuya directly connects against Grimmjow with SKY, there will be damage done, based on the simple fact that he isn't holding back the same as Kenpachi was against Noitora. He won't need to "get used to the hardness" of his hierro, as he's aware of hierro after his fight with Leroux. He knows how much power is needed to get the job done...the only question is does he have that necessary power. Which he doesn't, obviously. Or a better statement would be, "Byakuya's only sure-win attack in this fight is voided by Grimmjow's speed." Hakuteiken would most definately cut through Pantera Grimmjow's hierro. Too bad it'll never hit.

So again, Grimmjow does take the win, but it's not the curb-stomp you want it to be. A bleeding, battered Grimmjow stumbles his way into Pantera form before taking the win.

[The sunlight]

except for the fact that not only did ogichi tell ichigo he'd show him how to use the power of bankai, but:
1) those KGTs are the same size as the ones bankai ichigo lets out, not uber like the ones vizard ichigo lets out
2) ichigo first refers to the KGT as ogichi's move, and it isn't said or shown anywhere that his KGTs are weaker than ogichi's.

bankai ichigo can handle zomri with ease. end of story.

So ****ing what ? Oh yeah, he showed him. If A kung fu masters "shows" me how to use "the hidden dragon super-technique", that means i will be able to execute it as powerful as he can ? no. A copy doesn't mean that the copy is also as powerful. 1) Size doesn't mean shit. Did you see what big-ass explosion came out of these "small" KGT, who weren't even "named" ? and when there not named, they have less power then when ichigo says "GT" (this is stated), so that means three small, weak, toying KGT's made a huge explosion that is as big as a full powered spoken vaizard ichigo GT.
2) Ogichi is stronger, and therefore his Getsuga's are sronger. Yeah, prove that ichigo can easily take zomari ? you can't ? Ichigo can't handle kidou, or oppenents who use other then pure strength and speed. End of story.

and you still haven't brought anything to the table to prove that byakuya has as much strength as vizard ichigo.

Heres the thing: you said a few pages back "ogichi > ulquiorra".
Vaizard ichigo going at full power + enraged did not even scratch ulquiorra.
Since ogichi is stronger than ulquiorra, he is WAY above vaizard ichigo, meaning even if he was toying, he could've still been 2X vaizard ichigo.

the arguement that byakuya owned a character far weaker than grimjow doesn't mean he'd also destroy grimjow. there are so may factors you still haven't proved to support ur idea, like how the hell byakuya would match grimjow or ichigo in speed or pure power. the rest of ur argument is bogus when you fail to understand such simple factors, let alone provide any proof of how byakuya would overcome these obstacles.

First off all,stop attacking me. I NEVER claimed that byakuya would win, or that he would easily destroy grimmjow. NEVER. I'm saying that byakuya wouldn't get destroyed. Simple, byakuya is fast as hell himself, and byakuya has pure power.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/142/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/142/05/
this is power.Besides, speed doesn't mean automatic victory.

their strength shouldn't even come into question when the attacks used were at the level of bankai ichigo and light-years behind those of vizard bankai ichigo.

Those attacks being bankai ichigo level are something that you claim, but holds no ground at all.

don't rlly get what you're trying to say but wateva. byakuya was panting and also ADMITTED to having little energy left, thanks to ogichi...whose attacks in SS aren't even comparable to vizard ichigo's, let alone grimjow's kicks/punches.

Proof for this ?

[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR] ichigo is shocked at the uselessness of his "strongest attack" and ogichi starts to slowly gain control, so he starts to panic. how was he "holding back" when 1) most of his energy was already gone, 2) ogichi was starting to surface, and 3) his "strongest attack" didn't even phase grimjow the slightest?

1)Yeah, he was holding back. There was fear in him from the beginning that ogichi would come out. So he automatically holds back, even if it is subconsiously. Besides, ichigo said he could fire 2 or 3 more BEFORE ogichi starts to take over, meaning he had energy left. 2) And ? 3) It did. Grimmjow blocked it to begin with, and he got a huge scar. If he hadn't blocked it, he'd be bleeding bad.

maybe u should read the whole chapter yourself coz u seem to forget that grimjow blatantly said what was obvious from the very begining: IT'S PLAIN TO SEE THAT THE ONE WHO BARELY ESCAPED WITH HIS LIFE IS LIFE...IS YOU, SHINIGAMI.

So ? Grimmjow easily pwns bankai ichigo. So does byakuya.

and now u try to use that as proof that byakuya would fare well against grimjow..?

Yeah, because byakuya had little trouble beating bankai ichigo, even though he was slower than ichigo. Plus, byakuya has a lot more up his sleeve.

[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
show me where it was proved that:
- ogichi lied when he said he'd show ichigo how to use the power of bankai
- ogichi in SS was as powerful as the ogichi in vizard training, who had control over most of ichigo's soul.
- ichigo forgot to mention that the KGT he fired at grimjow was WEAKER than ogichi's
- each one of THESE THREE (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/08/) is even comparable to ONE OF THESE (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/231/15/) or THESE (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/270/23/) or THESE (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/281/18/) or even THIS (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/270/19/)


- Ogichi didn't lie, but it doesn't mean anything. If i show my little sister how to throw a punch, doesn't it mean her punch = mine ? it does not in the slightest.
- I never said the vaizard training ogichi was weaker then the byakuya ogichi, but ichigo "won" because his resolve was bigger, not because he was stronger than ogichi. So what does it matter ?
- Can you prove they were weaker ? the explosion sure as hell was at least as great as the ones ichigo fires now.

And let me say somtething else, if you claim 6th >>>>> 7th, how do you explain that grimmjow was even able to touch ulquiorra, and block his cero with his bare hands at point-blank range ? Ulquiorra is TWO ranks above grimmy, according to your esapada ranking logic, Ulquiorra should be so powerful that grimmjow would be blown to bits if he even tried to block the cero, which didn't happen.

[Zanga]

Why do people ignore logic, when making such statements and posts?

Grim can win, cuz he can out run Sky.

Niisama sliced the FASTEST espada, not once, 5 freaking times.....Im sure he can catch Grim

Why do people think Ichigo, is the only one who is getting stronger, or the only one who has yet to show his trump card? That guy with the triple spear had more than shikai, yet refused to use it in SS.

Niisama had other techniques and attacks he could have used on Ichigo(he could have went all out with this swords, he could of used kidou while chasing Ichigo with sky, he even said, while fighting the 7th espada, I didnt want to use the technique that SHE taught me, meaning, he has more techniques, yet, due to his high class, he tries to win without showing his all.

Making clones does not show the true power of speed, and in the end, Byakuya got caught. Had Leroux just used simple sondio instead of his gay clones, Leroux probably would've won right there.

Ofcourse Kubo wouldn't have that would he.

And let me say somtething else, if you claim 6th >>>>> 7th, how do you explain that grimmjow was even able to touch ulquiorra, and block his cero with his bare hands at point-blank range ? Ulquiorra is TWO ranks above grimmy, according to your esapada ranking logic, Ulquiorra should be so powerful that grimmjow would be blown to bits if he even tried to block the cero, which didn't happen.

He should've, he could've but he didn't get blown to bits? What does that show? It shows how strong Grimmjaw's Hierro really is, augmenting the punishment he can take, meaning SKY won't be penetrating him so easily.

[The sunlight]

Making clones does not show the true power of speed, and in the end, Byakuya got caught. Had Leroux just used simple sondio instead of his gay clones, Leroux probably would've won right there.

Ofcourse Kubo wouldn't have that would he.



He should've, he could've but he didn't get blown to bits? What does that show? It shows how strong Grimmjaw's Hierro really is, augmenting the punishment he can take, meaning SKY won't be penetrating him so easily.

It means the difference in one rank is not THAT great.
Besides, i never even talked about sky. SKY in its "cloud" form won't be able to penetrate grimmjow, indeed.

[Chi]

Keep in mind too that Sonido/Shunpo isn't all that measures speed, Grimmjow vs Ichigo the last time they fought they were just running. There was no shunpo/sonido it was all speed, which is far above byakuya's level. If byakuya was as fast bankai ichigo, then he woudlnt ever have lost sight of him. Bankai Ichigo is still a little bit faster then unreleased Grimmjow but grimmjow can still see ichigo. So if you want a difference in speed which in bleach universe provides a difference in strength.

Then if you calculate that VB ichigo is even faster still and Released Grimmjow was running on par with him Byakuya will never ever ever ever ever catch Grimmjow with Sky and won't even land a hit on Grimmjow with Senkei, if he does it will be because grimmjow is toying with him.

[smach]

guys, shunpo and sonido are the names given to the ability to move faster than the eye can follow or see. you don't have to "disappear" to be using shunpo; if your opponent can see you then they're just that good.

The hilarity of this thread is that everyone who voted for Grimmjow did so for the right reasons...but as they continue on Grimmjow's strength starts getting overrated. Byakuya is no weakling. I mean, look at this:the ones being overrated around here are zomari and ogichi, all in an attempt to make byakuya look stronger. i call it strategic overrating.

1: Speed difference. The difference in speed isn't as big as it was during the Byakuya vs. Ichigo fight. Byakuya's speed now is not the same speed he had back during the SS arc. Likewise, regular movement speed does not trump Shunpo speed. Sure, Grimmjow can sustain a high top speed since he's actually moving himself rather than using Sonido, but that takes the instantaneous nature out of his attacks. The fact that when Grim moves, you will see him move makes his speed less spectacular compared to Leroux or Byakuya because when Byakuya moves, there's no trace left behind. It'll be way easier to get a bead on Grim than Byakuya. Also, good luck hitting a master of Shunpo with a projectile...it's funny that earlier I said that one stake to the torso would end Byakuya, but common sense proves that that one stake will never hit. Ever.byakuya learned a technique that allows him to make a temporary copy of himself. that is not an increase in speed, it's a scape-goat technique.

this is the same grimjow who fought with bankai ichigo, and still landed major hits, while sealed. we already know that bankai ichigo's speed alone is better than byakuya's and grimjow walked all over it like it was nothing...without his release.

the claim that byakuya n zomari are faster coz there's no trace left behind is unfounded. if byakuya fights an opponent with significant speed then we'll also see his movements, esp if it's supposed to signify something. if he goes against an opponent slower than him then we won't, and this also applies to situations that don't deserve or need the emphasis on frame-by-frame concentration. using cicada doesn't count coz together with zemeros, they are both distraction techniques used to screw with the opponent's attention.

so far there's not been any proof that you need amazing speed to use cicada, and i will disregard the claims of being "the fastest espada" not only because of that, but also coz villains are known for making half-assed claims.

2: Difference in power. Yeah, there's a big difference...but the difference is being rediculously overestimated. Grimmjow is the 6th espada. That means he has a few battle statistics that place his worth in battle above 7th. He wasn't placed above Leroux based on speed, as we know he's slower than Leroux. He wasn't placed above him based on special ability either, because the ability to control your opponent>elbow spikes. So what does that leave? Pure strength...as in attack power and defense power. Harder blows and tougher armor. In other words, he is stronger than Leroux.the ability of voodoo triumphs over spikes? that's what we call an oxymoron. byakuya was proof enough that you don't have to be uber to beat zomari; kidou > voodo spells. if byakuya wanted to then he would've chopped his head off in the blink of an eye. zomari knew his ability was worthless, which is why he took rukia hostage. little did he know that byakuya has an arsenal of razor blades that he could unleash in the blink of an eye.

just face it, zomari had no useful defensive/offensive techniques, both sealed and released. all he could do is temporarily startle his opponent so he could have a good chance of success by landing an unexpected blow (no different from byakuya's backstab technique). even with his five copies, byakuya only had to create one of himself for zomari to see the mootness of his "super speed" so he gave up and released. did he even clash swords with byakuya? nope, coz he knows his abilities and skills are just that gay when it comes to swordfighting.

what do you think would've happened if bankai ichigo went against sealed zomari? all his copies, plus himself, would've been destroyed in an instant. released zomari...again, it would've been a very easy win.

Which is funny, considering the fact that Byakuya is also stronger than Leroux. Vastly. When you look at the two as one guy who's strong enough to kill the 7th Espada in 2 strikes, and the other guy is strong enough to be placed one rank above him, it puts the two alot closer on the power scale, Grimm taking the advantage due to hierro. A clash of blows between the two doesn't result in Byakuya's sword breaking, or him being launched through a building. It's simply a clash.i guess this perspective would also work perfectly in the case of noitora and ulquiorra.

after all, zaraki could've wtfpwned noitora with one shot from the very start, so obviously he'd be alot closer to ulquiorra on the power scale, ulquiorra taking the advantage due to hierro.

with that said, a kick/punch from grimjow will have the same amount of strength as a sword strike from byakuya, because it's simply a clash. it doesn't matter that grimjow's strength is waay above byakuya's, coz when two forces collide, the one that is weaker will NOT be injured or pushed back. thanks alot zaraki for your inaccurate information.

here's my totally false assumption: there is no proof that byakuya has improved his speed or strength. there is also no proof that he has acquired a boost in power comparable to ichigo's. with that said, zomari losing so easily to byakuya not only shows his weakness compared to ichigo, grimjow, and byakuya...it also doesn't imply that byakuya would fare well against grimjow, both sealed and released.

Also, if Byakuya directly connects against Grimmjow with SKY, there will be damage done, based on the simple fact that he isn't holding back the same as Kenpachi was against Noitora. He won't need to "get used to the hardness" of his hierro, as he's aware of hierro after his fight with Leroux. He knows how much power is needed to get the job done...the only question is does he have that necessary power. Which he doesn't, obviously. Or a better statement would be, "Byakuya's only sure-win attack in this fight is voided by Grimmjow's speed." Hakuteiken would most definately cut through Pantera Grimmjow's hierro. Too bad it'll never hit.grimjow's hierro is lightyears ahead of zomari's, so this entire comparison is moot. in short, NO DAMAGE WILL BE DONE.

and exactly what do you mean he won't be holding back? are u trying to imply that he was holding back vs ichigo/renji/zomari?

So again, Grimmjow does take the win, but it's not the curb-stomp you want it to be. A bleeding, battered Grimmjow stumbles his way into Pantera form before taking the win.there is no reason why byakuya would even manage to put a scratch on grimjow...unless he uses hakuteiken...which sure as hell won't result in "A bleeding, battered Grimmjow".

So ****ing what ? Oh yeah, he showed him. If A kung fu masters "shows" me how to use "the hidden dragon super-technique", that means i will be able to execute it as powerful as he can ? no. A copy doesn't mean that the copy is also as powerful. 1) Size doesn't mean shit. Did you see what big-ass explosion came out of these "small" KGT, who weren't even "named" ? and when there not named, they have less power then when ichigo says "GT" (this is stated), so that means three small, weak, toying KGT's made a huge explosion that is as big as a full powered spoken vaizard ichigo GT.
2) Ogichi is stronger, and therefore his Getsuga's are sronger. Yeah, prove that ichigo can easily take zomari ? you can't ? Ichigo can't handle kidou, or oppenents who use other then pure strength and speed. End of story.http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/06/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/280/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/280/11/

you don't need kidou to destroy five clones.
you don't need kidou to fire a KGT at a talking pumkin
you don't need kidou to chop the head off a talking pumpkin.
you don't need kidou to cut/stab a talking pumpkin.
you don't need kidou to throw shrapnel at a talking pumpkin.

also, regarding the name of attacks, u need to KNOW it, not SAY it:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/161/07/

plus there's the fact that having bankai means you don't have to verbalize your attacks every damn time:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/140/20/

and if u rlly wanna get picky, ichigo put his all into his first two KGTs, so they should be the same in terms of power:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/211/12-13/


Heres the thing: you said a few pages back "ogichi > ulquiorra".
Vaizard ichigo going at full power + enraged did not even scratch ulquiorra.
Since ogichi is stronger than ulquiorra, he is WAY above vaizard ichigo, meaning even if he was toying, he could've still been 2X vaizard ichigo.about ogichi being stronger than ulquiorra....when he has control over +50% of ichigo's soul. like when he can forcibly take control...like during the arancar's first invasion. ogichi had his 50% and was taking over ichigo's territory as well.

First off all,stop attacking me. I NEVER claimed that byakuya would win, or that he would easily destroy grimmjow. NEVER. I'm saying that byakuya wouldn't get destroyed. Simple, byakuya is fast as hell himself, and byakuya has pure power.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/142/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/142/05/
this is power.Besides, speed doesn't mean automatic victory.the point is such power won't mean jack against grimjow. unless byakuya is on par with vizard ichigo, the outcome won't be any different from what went down in grim's first confrontation with ichigo.

Those attacks being bankai ichigo level are something that you claim, but holds no ground at all.in your eyes, that is.

Proof for this ?ch166+ep59

1)Yeah, he was holding back. There was fear in him from the beginning that ogichi would come out. So he automatically holds back, even if it is subconsiously. Besides, ichigo said he could fire 2 or 3 more BEFORE ogichi starts to take over, meaning he had energy left. 2) And ? 3) It did. Grimmjow blocked it to begin with, and he got a huge scar. If he hadn't blocked it, he'd be bleeding bad.the attack only put a scratch on grimjow.
did he get phased? nope, he didn't lose any strength, nor did he lose blood.
did he block it? sure, he crossed his hands in front of his face.
what would've happened if he didn't block it? he would've injured his eye.
would he have lost alot of blood if he didn't block? nope, but he would've received a small-yet-decisive injury to the face.

as for ichigo, it's just as i said: he realized how useless his "strongest attack" is, and saw that he could only use 2-3 more before he loses control. to me that's not holding back coz it's not like he could've used something stronger; the outcome of the battle would not have changed to his favor.

So ? Grimmjow easily pwns bankai ichigo. So does byakuya.wow, i don't think fanboyism can get more outright obvious and evident than this.

Yeah, because byakuya had little trouble beating bankai ichigo, even though he was slower than ichigo. Plus, byakuya has a lot more up his sleeve.wow, the recurring bullshit brought by fanboyism never ceases to exist. byakuya fights an ichigo that was getting weaker by the second, and that means byakuya > ichigo?

o'wait, didn't byakuya himself say that ichigo got slower? and di