Jiraya vs Orochimaru [Manga Spoilers]

[Sin]

OKay for this fight, am thinking Jiraya with all his Jutsu's and Orochimaru during the Hokage battle royale. When he could use jutsu's himself and make hand signs.

[Jelouch]

Orochimaru is by far , the most durable character in the series. He has survived endless slashing , piercing , crushing , burning many times and every single time he is able to rise again. I'm not sure if Jiraiya could really hurt him enought to kill him , seeing as only when he fought against 4-tailed Kyuubi Naruto seemed worried that he might die.

He has the Kusanagi , lots of Jutsu (I'm willing to bet we haven't seen even the 20% of his total Jutsu , considering he has spent his life in learning and inventing new ) and he holded his own without hands against Jiraiya an' Tsunade.

Jiraiya was weakened by the poison , so he can't really count as a Sannin level. He still though , was pretty powerful (He summoned Gamabunta ^_^ ). But , Tsunade was fighting at her fullest. She was 100% , and couldn't kill Orochimaru with the help of Jiraiya.

It was 1 Sannin , vs 1,5 Sannin , and they stil couldn't kill him (he had NO hands). In fact , Tsunade reached her limits.

I'm not saying that Orochimaru is way above the other 2 Sannin , but he is superior to them even by a little.

p.s I'll add more arguements , to support my post later. *Goes to sleep*

[ninjabot]

I pretty much agree with Lelouch. Jiraiya will pelt Oro with high chakra consuming jutsu after high chakra consuming jutsu, wearing himself down as Orochimaru heals and laughs at him the entire fight. 4-tail Naruto>Hermit mode as far as destructive force goes, the only difference there is that Jiraiya gets two frogs to join him, as well as the fact that he retains his sanity, allowing him to fight with the ability to strategize.

Orochimaru's truest concern would be for the toads that Jiraiya can summon. Connecting with a blow from the Kusanagi is insta-win for Oro, as we saw how Jiraiya reacts to losing a limb. Combine that with the yamata no Orochi, paralyzing fumes that come from the blood of his white snake form, and Edo Tensei, and we got a win for Oro.

[Sin]

Well okay then,

lets put it in review...

Orochimaru encounters Naruto and places 5 prongue seal on him, Jiraya see it and realizes its Orochimaru's and calls it sloppy at best

Jiraya teached the fourth Hokage who thought Kakashi oh not to forget he taught pein and his lil gang.

Orochimaru had Anko... then steals sasuke from Jiraya's line and makes him a power house who surpassed him and is now probably going to be Madara's student. Okay great.

Orochimaru lost to itachi completely twice, the second time he died with one swoop of a sword. While Itachi looked upon Jiraya and confessed that He AND Kisame would both die going up against him. hmmm.... okay lets continue...

Jiraya fought and killed 3peins lost to 6 of them but the remaining peins confessed that Jiraya could have killed them all if he has learned the secret in time. The same pein who COMMANDED itachi, the same itachi who easily defeated Orochimaru...

I think the evidence is clear here. Jiraya wins as a better mentor, a better ninja and a just all around better character

[Jelouch]

Well okay then,

lets put it in review...

Orochimaru encounters Naruto and places 5 prongue seal on him, Jiraya see it and realizes its Orochimaru's and calls it sloppy at best

Jiraya teached the fourth Hokage who thought Kakashi oh not to forget he taught pein and his lil gang.

Orochimaru had Anko... then steals sasuke from Jiraya's line and makes him a power house who surpassed him and is now probably going to be Madara's student. Okay great.

Orochimaru lost to itachi completely twice, the second time he died with one swoop of a sword. While Itachi looked upon Jiraya and confessed that He AND Kisame would both die going up against him. hmmm.... okay lets continue...

Jiraya fought and killed 3peins lost to 6 of them but the remaining peins confessed that Jiraya could have killed them all if he has learned the secret in time. The same pein who COMMANDED itachi, the same itachi who easily defeated Orochimaru...

I think the evidence is clear here. Jiraya wins as a better mentor, a better ninja and a just all around better character

Jiraiya had better match-ups than Orochimaru. Orochimaru fought Itachi , who pretty much had the only abilities shown as far able to defeat Orochimaru. Genjutsu. And strong Genjutsu , possibly the strongest in the series in our case.

About the second time Orochimaru lost , we can't really say this was a fight. He just went out of Sasuke and before finishing his talk he got attacked. I'm sure it would have gone otherwise , had he been prepared ( I'm not saying he would have won , don't misunderstand ).

[Sin]

Or it could be that Jiraya knows how to deal with his opponents better and more effectively. Making him a better ninja... Orochimaru would have no doubt lost to Pein... esp since Hydro techinigue would have probably been ripped to shreds by one of peins summons. from the start.

[Jelouch]

Or it could be that Jiraya knows how to deal with his opponents better and more effectively. Making him a better ninja... Orochimaru would have no doubt lost to Pein... esp since Hydro techinigue would have probably been ripped to shreds by one of peins summons. from the start.

You could be right. But , you know Naruto (and most Mangas/Animes) do not follow an A>B B>C A>C rule. It's not rock-paper-scissors.

(Lame example follows)
Ninja1 , beats Ninja 2. Ninja 2 , beats Ninja 3. Ninja 1 does not have to be stronger than Ninja 3.

This is due to the great variety of different techniques there are.

While , I do agree that Orochimaru would have also lost to Pein , the bolded sentence isn't verified. Orochimaru could have summoned Manda to hold off Peins summons. And why would they 'rip him in shreds'? -.- Anyway , this fight is not the one we are discussing in this thread.

All in all , I do believe Orochimaru is superior to Jiraiya because , the only "plus" Jiraiya has in this debate is that he has fared better against his opponents - which is pretty dull imo.

[Sin]

Well its not a matter of dullness, Jiraya did beat all three of initial Peins bodies. Orochimaru would have lost to the initial one that was doing the Summonings. Remember everyone of Peins Summonings had the Rinnegan too. Esp this crazy 8 headed dog that would split into 8 dogs and kept multiplying and multiplying. Plus that great Kunasagi sword wouldn't have been of any use against Pein.

Jiraya threw Peins Giant summon at least 100 feet back on pure power alone. Then Pein called out the other two bodies and even then could barely keep track of Jiraya and still lost the fight against Jiraya. He had to use a sneak attack to get at Jiraya. He didn't even use any Jutsu that required hand signs. Orochimaru is strong don't get me wrong but its the case of you have a prodigy from the start (oro) he blossomed early and is clever, then you have the goof ball who didn't take things seriously, but after orochimaru left he started to take things seriously and manage to surpass Orochimaru by learning and recognizing truth. He studied things that Orochimaru didn't have access too. Like the documents of the hokage's because Minato was his student and Sarutobi was his mentor and he was trusted unlike orochimaru. So while Orochimaru had to struggle to learn and develop techniques Jiraya was probably learning the same techniques without half as much hassle.

So yeah i will end with saying this we've seen more of Orochimaru was capable of then jiraya and the lil we saw of Jiraya still placed him above Orochimaru. That might have been different when they were kids but as grown ups Jiraya has it.

[Jelouch]

Well its not a matter of dullness, Jiraya did beat all three of initial Peins bodies. Orochimaru would have lost to the initial one that was doing the Summonings. Remember everyone of Peins Summonings had the Rinnegan too. Esp this crazy 8 headed dog that would split into 8 dogs and kept multiplying and multiplying. Plus that great Kunasagi sword wouldn't have been of any use against Pein.

Jiraya threw Peins Giant summon at least 100 feet back on pure power alone. Then Pein called out the other two bodies and even then could barely keep track of Jiraya and still lost the fight against Jiraya. He had to use a sneak attack to get at Jiraya. He didn't even use any Jutsu that required hand signs. Orochimaru is strong don't get me wrong but its the case of you have a prodigy from the start (oro) he blossomed early and is clever, then you have the goof ball who didn't take things seriously, but after orochimaru left he started to take things seriously and manage to surpass Orochimaru by learning and recognizing truth. He studied things that Orochimaru didn't have access too. Like the documents of the hokage's because Minato was his student and Sarutobi was his mentor and he was trusted unlike orochimaru. So while Orochimaru had to struggle to learn and develop techniques Jiraya was probably learning the same techniques without half as much hassle.

So yeah i will end with saying this we've seen more of Orochimaru was capable of then jiraya and the lil we saw of Jiraya still placed him above Orochimaru. That might have been different when they were kids but as grown ups Jiraya has it.

A > B > C , doesnt guarantee that A > C. Jiraiya fared better than Orochimaru would , against Pein. So what?

I'll use an example in Bleach , forgive me for not being able to show you what I mean in other words. I'm sure you know of Zomari. He got cut in little pieces by Byakuya - easily. That doesn't mean that Zomari would have been unable to completely destroy Zaraki. (Please , do not argue against this. Zomari would control Zaraki --> bb for Zaraki. ). Stil , Zaraki defeated Nnoitra , an Espada ranked higher than Zomari.

I re-wathed the (pre-timeskip) Sannin Battle. Orochimaru was actually winning . Tsunade said she was at her limit , and he said while smiling (!) that everyone has their limitis and she've reached hers. Jiraiya was looking at them (he was pretty bashed himself ) and didn't do anything. Then Tsunade got a random power-up by remembering about her brother,Naruto and her first love and started punching Orochimaru to oblivion.

If not for that completely random powerup Orochimaru would have won against a Jiraiya who was able to summon Gamabunta , and a Tsunade fighting at her fullest. Without his arms.

I'm not going to accept Jiraiya is stronger , when he got humiliated like that just because he holded his own against Pein for 10 minutes.

[Sin]

he was drugged, that's not even a fair assessment of his abilities and we all that Tsunade is the weakest link in that chain. Too bad shes the last one left.

[Jelouch]

he was drugged, that's not even a fair assessment of his abilities and we all that Tsunade is the weakest link in that chain. Too bad shes the last one left.

He was drugged indeed. But to be able to summon Gamabunta he must still had a large portion of his power. Summoning a Boss-level Summon is not child's play.

Don't misunderstand. I'm not saying Jiraiya lost to Orochimaru in the Sannin showdown , because Orochimaru is the l337n3$$. The drug played a major role in the battle. But , drug or no drug Orochimaru had no arms. No seals. No Jutsus. Defensive/Offensive capabilities , crippled.

And he was still frigging winning. If not for Tsunade's random powerboost , he would have won.

About Tsunade being the weakest Sannin , with that much I agree. But stil , you can't just erase her from the fight. She is stronger than a very powerful Jounin at the least.

If you do not want me to count her as a Kage-level Ninja , fine. Orochimaru was fighting with no arms,seals, his defence and offence crippled against a very powerful Jounin and a Ninja being able to summon Gamabunta.

And I repeat (for the last time , I hope xP) that he would have won if not for a random powerboost.

[Sin]

He would never have won against a normal Jiraya. Able to make jutsu or no. Jiraya didn't use one ninjutsu against pein and look how much stronger he is. He put up a couple of barriers but that's just about it. Orochimaru would have to use Ninjutsu to try and handle pein and Jiraya but it wouldn't work the end result would have been the same. Orochimaru against Jiraya is totally in Jiraya's favor.

[Jay3205]

I think Orochimaru would win against Jiraiya. Even though Jiraiya was drugged, that doesn't seems to make up for the fact that Tsunade was helping and that Orochimaru had no seals. Perhaps Orochimaru is just "well-suited" to fight Jiraiya, just like people with bladed weapons happen to be well-suited to fight Orochimaru.

Also, using Pein's fight for comparison doesn't seem to make much sense, since Pein didn't seem to pull out all his best techniques, and Orochimaru never fought him. Jiraiya may not have used jutsu, but at least he had arms, which does make a ton of difference.

[Sin]

I think Orochimaru would win against Jiraiya. Even though Jiraiya was drugged, that doesn't seems to make up for the fact that Tsunade was helping and that Orochimaru had no seals. Perhaps Orochimaru is just "well-suited" to fight Jiraiya, just like people with bladed weapons happen to be well-suited to fight Orochimaru.

Also, using Pein's fight for comparison doesn't seem to make much sense, since Pein didn't seem to pull out all his best techniques, and Orochimaru never fought him. Jiraiya may not have used jutsu, but at least he had arms, which does make a ton of difference.
Your logic is flawed since Orochimaru has a blade himself...

Jiraya has superb strength, Flexible he knows Jutsu that even Orochimaru lacks the skill to learn and perform. Such as the Rasengan and Tsunade's statement that only him and the 4th could perform that Jutsu and now Naruto too.

He has the Lion Manes, which he can use as offensive and defensive purposes. He withstood the full on slaught of the Kyubi while Orochimaru had help from that guy. Orochimaru would have died if not for Sakura and old boy coming to save him. Meanwhile Jiraya did it himself and he didn't have to get a new body each time he took a hit. So greater defense skills too. And of course the words of the Great Itachi Uchiha saying two s-ranked ninja could defeat Jiraya while one was more then a match for Orochimaru

And according to snake mon himself Itachi is stronger then he is. And Itachi's words saying that Jiraya is stronger then he.

So again... Jiraya wins this. Sorry lil homies

[Jay3205]

^^ I meant that people with swords would perform better against Orochimaru than those without swords. Orochimaru's body is modified so he can take an extremely severe fist/kick beating and walk away with no severe injuries. Any other character would have broken bones, damaged organs, and more than likely be dead. However, a blades have been shown to give him actual damage, as Itachi has shown.

I don't see how Jiraiya knows jutsu that Orochimaru is too "unskilled" to learn. He knows Rasengan, but that doesn't mean Orochimaru can't learn it... only that he hasn't (since everybody who knows it wouldn't teach him). If Kakashi and Naruto can learn it, then certainly Orochimaru could learn it.

When did Jiraiya "withstand the full force" of Kyuubi? I recall Jiraiya getting "beaten within an inch of his life" by 4T Kyuubi. I also recall Orochimaru toying with 4T Kyuubi most of the fight. Also, I don't see how Jiraiya has better "defense skills", since Orochimaru doesn't need to switch bodies "every hit". He only switches when the time limit on the body runs out, which occurs every few years.

Finally A beat B, who beat C doesn't really hold for any characters who fight in Naruto land. By that reasoning, Naruto > Kakuzu > Kakashi means Naruto > Kakashi. However, all of Kakashi's skills are higher than that of Naruto, and his Sharingan would make cheap tactics+rasengan+taijutsu a non-viable option; Naruto would lose that fight. Itachi losing to Jiraiya could just mean Jiraiya knows some type of defense against genjutsu.

[Zanga]

A > B > C , doesnt guarantee that A > C. Jiraiya fared better than Orochimaru would , against Pein. So what?

I'll use an example in Bleach , forgive me for not being able to show you what I mean in other words. I'm sure you know of Zomari. He got cut in little pieces by Byakuya - easily. That doesn't mean that Zomari would have been unable to completely destroy Zaraki. (Please , do not argue against this. Zomari would control Zaraki --> bb for Zaraki. ). Stil , Zaraki defeated Nnoitra , an Espada ranked higher than Zomari.

I re-wathed the (pre-timeskip) Sannin Battle. Orochimaru was actually winning . Tsunade said she was at her limit , and he said while smiling (!) that everyone has their limitis and she've reached hers. Jiraiya was looking at them (he was pretty bashed himself ) and didn't do anything. Then Tsunade got a random power-up by remembering about her brother,Naruto and her first love and started punching Orochimaru to oblivion.

If not for that completely random powerup Orochimaru would have won against a Jiraiya who was able to summon Gamabunta , and a Tsunade fighting at her fullest. Without his arms.

I'm not going to accept Jiraiya is stronger , when he got humiliated like that just because he holded his own against Pein for 10 minutes.

Your Bleach comparison holds no meaning since Zomari could've easily done that to Byakuya but chose to be a ****ing idiot and be a pompous pumpkin.

[FullMetal Rebel]

Orochimaru is by far , the most durable character in the series. He has survived endless slashing , piercing , crushing , burning many times and every single time he is able to rise again. I'm not sure if Jiraiya could really hurt him enought to kill him , seeing as only when he fought against 4-tailed Kyuubi Naruto seemed worried that he might die.

He has the Kusanagi , lots of Jutsu (I'm willing to bet we haven't seen even the 20% of his total Jutsu , considering he has spent his life in learning and inventing new ) and he holded his own without hands against Jiraiya an' Tsunade.

Jiraiya was weakened by the poison , so he can't really count as a Sannin level. He still though , was pretty powerful (He summoned Gamabunta ^_^ ). But , Tsunade was fighting at her fullest. She was 100% , and couldn't kill Orochimaru with the help of Jiraiya.

It was 1 Sannin , vs 1,5 Sannin , and they stil couldn't kill him (he had NO hands). In fact , Tsunade reached her limits.

I'm not saying that Orochimaru is way above the other 2 Sannin , but he is superior to them even by a little.

p.s I'll add more arguements , to support my post later. *Goes to sleep*

This post reminded just how damn powerful Orochimaru is. The Yamato no Orochi is an added bonus.

Orochimaru just can't seem to get past the sharingan though>.>

[Sin]

Haha but Jiraya can! Itachi admitted that. He can bypass the Mangekyou Sharingan and fight Kisame who uses monster strength and Reiatsu filled jutsu's. Orochimaru get's pwnd by a bare sharingan...

[Jelouch]

Haha but Jiraya can! Itachi admitted that. He can bypass the Mangekyou Sharingan and fight Kisame who uses monster strength and Reiatsu filled jutsu's. Orochimaru get's pwnd by a bare sharingan...

This is like the third time I'm posting this , dude.

Naruto,Bleach,heck even Pokemon and pretty much the majority of Animes is not based on the rule of A>B>C thus A>C.

Just because Ninja A , wins Ninja B and Ninja B wins Ninja C , it doesn't mean that Ninja A wins Ninja C. It's pretty simple , and I can't understand why you keep ignoring that fact.

I'll go as far as replacing the "Ninja A,B,C" with names of characters.

Gaara > Naruto > Deidara (While this is debatable , please ignore it. I'm just using their names. I picked them in random. )

This doesn't mean that Gaara , auto-wins against Deidara.

Following me ?

[Sin]

And again i keep telling you that it is your logic that's flawed because in all the cases we've see Jiraya fight, even when drugged and severely weakend he could still summon Gamabunta!! And even still you use that logic but compare Orochimaru's fight with Tsunade as a measure of Orochimaru's strength when for the most part Jiraya just stood there. Plus Orochimaru has the healing power of the white snake which heals him almost instantly against Tsunade. Jiraya will never fight tsunade seriously because... well he wants to hit that!! So you can't use that as a measuring board either that's like saying Sakura is better then Naruto cause Naruto lets her punch him all the time o_O

[D3v]

What you are missing is that Oro couldn't even make any seals at that time. To use Bleach's analogy, that would be like two captains fighting against one who didn't even have a zampaktu. Even if one of them wasn't able to use Bankai for whatever reason (Jiraiya) the lone captain would still fall, unless ofcourse he really much stronger than those two. The fact that he pretty much dominated most of the fight shows how insanely strong Oro really is.

[Jelouch]

And again i keep telling you that it is your logic that's flawed because in all the cases we've see Jiraya fight, even when drugged and severely weakend he could still summon Gamabunta!! And even still you use that logic but compare Orochimaru's fight with Tsunade as a measure of Orochimaru's strength when for the most part Jiraya just stood there. Plus Orochimaru has the healing power of the white snake which heals him almost instantly against Tsunade. Jiraya will never fight tsunade seriously because... well he wants to hit that!! So you can't use that as a measuring board either that's like saying Sakura is better then Naruto cause Naruto lets her punch him all the time o_O

*points at D3v's post*

How can you say one is severly weaker when he is able to summon Gamabunta? The drug , obviously , didn't weaken him that much. Jiraiya 'just stood there' , because he was not able to do otherwise.

Orochimaru healed instantly against Tsunade , because this is one of his abilities. I don't see anyting 'bad' here ^^

Jiraiya fighting Tsunade? When did I mention him fighting her? lol.

[Sin]

Never said you did say they fight Jiraya but i said don't bring up the fact that Jiraya had two ribs and several broken bones for peeping on Tsunade as a youngster. And Tsunade beating Orochimaru and have him heal instantly.

Don't get me wrong i like Orochimaru, I think if he had hand signs he would be able to have a serious fight of epic proportions like the Hokage battle royale. But unlike that I seriously think that Jiraya would really mess him up. Your saying that Orochimaru didn't have hand signs, neither did jiraya... as a matter of fact the only hand signs he made in both the Sanin face off and against Pein was the summoning jutsu and the mud thing to burying the summon but his chakra was still suffering the effects of the drug and still fail. But i still prevented the snake from moving and doing a whole lot. SO a fully functional Jiraya won't have any problems taking down Orochimaru's summons or possibly his Jutsu. Keep in mind to its been said that after Orochimaru left he went in pursuit gathering spies to learn what Orochimaru was doing so just as it can be said that he knows Akatsuki's movements better then anyone else outside of Akatsuki same can be said he would be able to gather intel on Orochimaru too so he may have spent time just gathering and learning jutsu to counter Orochimaru while Orochimaru wouldnt give a rats tail about Jiraya.

[captainmawaluigi]

Ahem, first I will explain those weak bleach quotes.

Zaraki is not as fast as byakuya, so therefore, he would never touch Zomari. Remember, the espada are the espada for having techniques, not just pure power. It seems that Grimmjow, Yammi, and Nnorita are the only espada who just use raw power and have no sign of technique or anything, and look where that landed them....btw what happened to Yammi...did he die or what?

Ken has the power to fight Zomari, yet he lacks the speed to catch him, so it wouldnt matter if he used both hands to swing down his sword.

Anyway, Orochimaru would win. Slug>Snake>Frog

Thats how the series goes, and thats how the Sannin work.

Yes Itachi and Kisame would die if fighting Frog dude, and yes Oro got pwned by Itachi. Guess, what, neither of that matters. Oro has an advantage over Frog guy in just about every way and he knows this.