Shinji vs Urahara[Manga Spoilers]

[iBleach47]

So Shinji or Urahara???????

ima a thinking Urahara.

purly speculation tho.

because we've only realy seen Shinji go real hardcore once against grimmjow and in that fight he was pushing grimmjow to the edge and beyond, (but grimmjow only had 1 arm and wasnt in his released form) so its a tough fight.

and Urahara we realy havent seen go all out at all so its kind of hard to choose there. (we realy havent even seen his bankai).

[Chi]

I will not participate in this thread at all i love both characters too much!! I don't even want to speculate. So i will say we know too little about shinji's abilities to make a fair assessment.

[SenpaiRetsu]

I will not vote until i find out whether urahara is a vaizard or not. if he's not a vaizard i'll give it to shinji, but if he is a vaizard i'll give it to Urahara mabye.................

[Jeggo]

Shinji was already a senior Captain ( or at least , a Captain who had the respect of the senior Captains ) , when Urahara got promoted.It's not that I dislike Urahara , but as experience goes we have to give it to Shinji.

Urahara , on the other hand has shown many times that he is very resourceful , cunning and rather strong in fights. That , coupled with his whole mysterious role in the series implies that he is a truly powerful adversary.

I'm willing to bet that they have about the same level of Shinigami power , but Shinji having stepped into Hollow territory will finally have the advantage. That is , if Urahara isn't a Vaizard - which is a possibility.

As of now , Shinji - even if we haven't seen anything of his powers , other than a small hint.

[Lightey Natsume]

I Beleve Kisuke gets this one mostly becuase of more experince and power in the anime just a guess though.

[Guy]

Unless Urahara is secretly a super vizard who has been duping everybody with his intellect, Shinji takes this one with ease. Shinji was AIZEN'S captain. Shinji easily toyed with the 6th espada, while Urahara only toyed with the 10th and a few nameless arrancars. Experience wise, Shinji utterly destroys Urahara too, as Urahara was a newbie around Shinji's time as a captain.

[iBleach47]

ya reading that stuff now
Shinji could also see through Aizens complete hypnoses. and the power from the vizards that attacked him in the manga in the last couple chapters barely did anything to him, when it took out love and the other guy (sorry cant remember his name)

so its starting to look like Shinji atm till we see more about them.

[Takeshi vi Britannia]

Urahara or Shinji....mhmm....This is a difficult question indeed. We've only caught glimpses of these two in battle. Urahara we've seen slightly more action from than Shinji, but I think we have yet to see what unique techniques he possesses. And even though we've seen Shinji fight for a shorter period of time against Grimmjow, he said himself he wasn't holding back. But Grimmjow only had one arm at the time and was already in a beat up condition with his fight with Ichigo earlier. So I've realized that if we really wanted to see who was stronger, we'd have to see Urahara fight Grimmjow and see just how he fairs against him.

[sophos]

I don't think Urahara would risk testing the vaizard transformation on purpose on anyone including himself, so Shinji would have an overwhelming advantage.

[ninjabot]

If this were a science fair, Urahara all the way. In a fight to the death? Shinji has shown more destructive power aswell as more speed than Urahara (which still wasn't that much) in that fight against Grimmjow alone. It was a wounded, one armed Grimmjow, but still an opponent that was 4 ranks more deadly (whether means based on speed or power) than Yammi, the strongest opponent Urahara has faced so far. His feats are more impressive than Urahara's.

But then again, there are plenty of people that are faster and stronger than what Urahara has shown us...but that counts for nothing in an Urahara battle. Just look at every Urahara vs. battle for proof.

Edit: Post 777! Awesome!

[smach]

The most obvious conclusion would be Urahara being the victor...the possibility of having hollow powers doesn't even come into the picture.

[Chi]

ummm... how does grimmjow having one arm affect his speed when he still has two legs?

Plus i retain my original disposition... We have nothing conclusive on either one right now to make a fair assesment of their powers. Urahara was toying with Yami and when he got serious, either Ulq saved yami by retreating or Negacion did.

Urahara showed some pretty impressive powers in shikai by cutting through the 6th espada's released form with little effort while still in a gigai.

[ninjabot]

I'm not saying Urahara wasn't toying with Yammi. I'm saying that feat is seriously the extent of his strength until someone shows me better (Kubo). Likewise Luppi, in case you didn't know, sucks. Hard. Consider cutting one of his arms a feat if you want...I'm not sure how many people'll be impressed by that.

Likewise, just how much do you expect Urahara's power to increase if he does happen to have Vizard powers? The only possible way Urahara's victory could be obvious is if Urahara had shown us the physical strength to compete with a beaten and battered Grimmjow. Which he hasn't.

[Chi]

I'm not saying Urahara wasn't toying with Yammi. I'm saying that feat is seriously the extent of his strength until someone shows me better (Kubo). Likewise Luppi, in case you didn't know, sucks. Hard. Consider cutting one of his arms a feat if you want...I'm not sure how many people'll be impressed by that.
Let me get this straight you admit to the fact that Urahara never was serious with Yami and when he did get serious he was saved either by Negaccion or VLE Ulquiorra and therefore the toying around was the measure of his strength?:confused:

Luppi for whatever reason was placed as the 6th espada, for whatever reason he had a higher killing ability of Zomari, Szayel, Aaroneiro and Yami. His fighting style greatly differed then Grimmjow not to mention Grimmjow just straight up went for the jugular after being healed. So he was the 6th and that's that, why wasn't he 7th? who cares. He still cut through someone who's ranked an espada at the time's released state with just shikai while in a gigai.
Likewise, just how much do you expect Urahara's power to increase if he does happen to have Vizard powers? The only possible way Urahara's victory could be obvious is if Urahara had shown us the physical strength to compete with a beaten and battered Grimmjow. Which he hasn't.
Since when did Grimmjow become the measuring stick for anyone's power? Plus if that's the case then Zaraki is superb for beating Nnoitra and is therefore automatically better then all the other captainst who faught lower then level 5 espada.

At this stage its not likely that Urahara is a vizard. More then anything he used the Hougokyou to strengthen his soul as a shinigami like he told Tessai while not quite crossing into Vizard territory. Now is it possible that he did it at a later date? Yes but there's no proof of that as of now.

And i expect if he were it wouldn't be anymore or less significant to the power boost ichigo gets from him going vizard either. After all Aizen created Vizard Shinji and anything he can do Urahara can do better or else he wouldn't need the Hougokyou would he?

[KholdStare]

I have to say I agree with Chi here. If Urahara was toying around with Yammi then why should we assume that that is the extent of his strength. Isn't that the whole point of toying around is, not showing your true strength and just having fun?

[ninjabot]

Because even though he's stronger than Yammi, we've got plenty of other characters that are considerably stronger than him aswell, and Shinji has shown the ability to hold his own against one of them. A wounded one, but someone considerably stronger. Urahara hasn't, so the most we can say about Urahara is "He's considerably stronger than unreleased Yammi". That's it. That officially makes him stronger than...Hitsugaya. That's definately something to be proud of, lol.

And I use Grimmjow as a measuring stick because while I know the A>B>C but not A>C rule, when you consider the gap between ranks you simply can't ignore it. I use Yammi as Urahara's measuring stick because that's the strongest person he's fought. I use Grimm as Shinji's because that's the strongest person he's fought. Urahara did exceptionally well against a nobody. Shinji did pretty good against an elite foe. See the difference?

And Luppi wasn't 7th Espada because Zomari didn't need to be humbled by having his cherished rank given to a weakling. It was Aizen's way of saying "Look Grimm, I don't need you. You're expendible and I won't think twice about getting rid of you if you don't remember your place." That's why Luppi was 6th.

[KholdStare]

I don't know about Chi but I'm not arguing whether Urahara can beat Shinji or not. All I'm saying is that you can't use the fight with Yammi to measure the "extent of Urahara's power". You agreed that he was in fact toying with Yammi so if he was toying with him it would make sense to not use full strength, would it not? When have we ever seen a character toy with another while using his/her full strength?

[ninjabot]

The fact that he was toying with Yammi meant that his strength was higher than his, I get it. It also showed that his max power couldn't have been that far away from Yammi's because Yammi wasn't using his max power either. If they were both useing their full strength; tf they both released (Urahara into Bankai and Yammi into his final form) then the increase in power wouldn't make either of them grow 100 times what they are initially.

5 to 10 times max. The full extent of Urahara's power would be 5 to 10 times more than it was when his shikai strength was toying with him. Granted, that wasn't his max Shikai strength, but that brings me back to my feeling that Urahara can't be that much stronger than his "toying strength".

Not without Vizardation.

[smach]

Okay umm Shikai Urahara can do what Vizard Bankai Ichigo does...with ease.

He can deflect normal ceros or nullify them to protect bystanders and bala doesn't even phase him.

[Jeggo]

Okay umm Shikai Urahara can do what Vizard Bankai Ichigo does...with ease.

He can deflect normal ceros or nullify them to protect bystanders and bala doesn't even phase him.

I don't wanna get involved in this topic , because I like both characters.. But..

..I don't think that any Captain (Don't count Hitsugaya) especially somebody who has hollow powers and is a Captain for a long time would be phased by a Bala.

Urahara didn't block the Cero with his sword , like Ichigo did. Ichigo took it head on , and shruged it off using his power. Urahara had a similar ability that enabled him to negate it's effect.

[smach]

What ichigo did is take it head-on, which i doubt would've been hard for urahara. as he said, there were bystanders so he decided to nullify it instead.

Ichigo needed bankai+vizard powers to do that. urahara reduced it to nothing like it was childsplay.

[KholdStare]

The fact that he was toying with Yammi meant that his strength was higher than his, I get it. It also showed that his max power couldn't have been that far away from Yammi's because Yammi wasn't using his max power either.

I disagree. Yammi was using as much strength as he possibly could without releasing whereas Urahara was not doing so. Yammi was VERY angry and was out to kill Urahara and Urahara was not doing the same. And your first sentence is quite obvious... we all know that. What I'm trying to say is that Urahara's "toying" is probably nowhere near his full strength. He didn't even fire one of those red beams he usually fires or block, he just kept using his little gadget.

[ninjabot]

He hit Yammi directly in the face with one of those red beams. Which scratched his face up a bit. Also, when he was hit by Bala (an attack weaker than Cero) directly, he uttered a grunt in pain. He felt an attack that was weaker than a Cero and was winded by it.

Stronger than what he showed againts Yammi? Sure. Exponentially so? Nah...not buying that. Not yet atleast.

[Chi]

I don't know about Chi but I'm not arguing whether Urahara can beat Shinji or not. All I'm saying is that you can't use the fight with Yammi to measure the "extent of Urahara's power". You agreed that he was in fact toying with Yammi so if he was toying with him it would make sense to not use full strength, would it not? When have we ever seen a character toy with another while using his/her full strength?I am not saying that Urahara can beat shinji either, only that his base assessment of Urahara's ability and measure of strength is so far off its sad.
The fact that he was toying with Yammi meant that his strength was higher than his, I get it. It also showed that his max power couldn't have been that far away from Yammi's because Yammi wasn't using his max power either. If they were both useing their full strength; tf they both released (Urahara into Bankai and Yammi into his final form) then the increase in power wouldn't make either of them grow 100 times what they are initially.

5 to 10 times max. The full extent of Urahara's power would be 5 to 10 times more than it was when his shikai strength was toying with him. Granted, that wasn't his max Shikai strength, but that brings me back to my feeling that Urahara can't be that much stronger than his "toying strength".

Not without Vizardation.... at the risk of sounding like am flaming or trolling i'll just say you have no basis for this assesment and that your way way off and i mean WAYYYYYYYY OFF.
Okay umm Shikai Urahara can do what Vizard Bankai Ichigo does...with ease.

He can deflect normal ceros or nullify them to protect bystanders and bala doesn't even phase him.If anything what smach just said should be an indication of how strong Urahara, in shikai while in a gigai really is but i guess his toying ability is close to the level of the 6th espada and so is yami apparently :rolleye09
I don't wanna get involved in this topic , because I like both characters.. But..

..I don't think that any Captain (Don't count Hitsugaya) especially somebody who has hollow powers and is a Captain for a long time would be phased by a Bala.Ummm... i dunno dude, we've only seen it use against Urahara and Nell so its hard to say really
Urahara didn't block the Cero with his sword , like Ichigo did. Ichigo took it head on , and shruged it off using his power. Urahara had a similar ability that enabled him to negate it's effect.Ummmm, negate, nullify, cancel whatever... and Ichigo did shrug it off but he was in the middle of the air where nothing else was, Urahara was on the ground with Yorouichi, Chad, Orihime, Tatsuki and whoever else was still alive after that soul sucker attack from Yami laying all over the field of battle, he couldn't have done the same thing so he had to cancel it its not that he coudln't take it head on either.
What ichigo did is take it head-on, which i doubt would've been hard for urahara. as he said, there were bystanders so he decided to nullify it instead.

Ichigo needed bankai+vizard powers to do that. urahara reduced it to nothing like it was childsplay.Again see the power levels?
I disagree. Yammi was using as much strength as he possibly could without releasing whereas Urahara was not doing so. Yammi was VERY angry and was out to kill Urahara and Urahara was not doing the same. And your first sentence is quite obvious... we all know that. What I'm trying to say is that Urahara's "toying" is probably nowhere near his full strength. He didn't even fire one of those red beams he usually fires or block, he just kept using his little gadget.I mean seriously, yami lost sight of Urahara so many times in that second battle its so sad, he wasn't even slightly serious and he was just leagues and leagues above Yami.
He hit Yammi directly in the face with one of those red beams. Which scratched his face up a bit. Also, when he was hit by Bala (an attack weaker than Cero) directly, he uttered a grunt in pain. He felt an attack that was weaker than a Cero and was winded by it.Would you care to show me where this happend?? cause i don't remember it at all
Stronger than what he showed againts Yammi? Sure. Exponentially so? Nah...not buying that. Not yet atleast.Yeah, but i bet if it was Byakuya you wouldn't hesitate to say he was God.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/194/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/194/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/194/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/194/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/194/16/

oh and during this i don't see Urhara grunting once

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/233/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/234/11/
all the way through to this
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/235/07/ (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/235/05/)

Where he there showed such superior speed that no one ever freakin saw him

that ugh you saw wasn't him being hit it was his gigai which he used to toy with ole boy. But yeah i can see how Yami looks a lil scratched up :rolleye09

For the record this is the person who your using as a measuring stick for Shinji's abilities which also isn't a good idea.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/235/12/
he's all bloody and battered from taking at least three direct hits from VB Ichigo's close ranged GT so even with one arm he was less then Yami so...

[ninjabot]

I'm waaaay off? In that case, Urahara's power really will increase 100 times what it was during that fight, according to your logic. And that didn't sound like flaming. It sounded like you like Urahara. Alot. And of course you didn't see Urahara grunt in pain, because those are the wrong pages:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/234/12/

"Ugh, Gah." You were looking at the same chapter and just happened to miss this? It's the first panel. And Urahara admits "That attack won't hit me AGAIN." Meaning he was hit once already. Yammi caused Urahara pain, it's not something that's that hard to accept. Plenty of people can hurt Urahara.

And for "getting hit in the face by that red beam", you already saw it because you posted the link already:http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/235/05/

The page right before it shows Benihime pressed against Yammi's jaw. His face. Again your trying to convince me that Urahara is stronger then Yammi, which I agreed with. So why are you coming with more pictures showing me that he is, indeed, stronger than Yammi? I already KNOW that.

The question is how much stronger? Strong enough to be compared to Shinji? Maybe, but not likely. And comparing Shinji to Grimmjow is the only possible way to guage his strength. The only way until we see more of him. I work with what I've been shown, and Shinji has shown better so far.

So what's more noteworthy? Pwning a weak opponent, or keeping up with a weakened elite opponent?

[smach]

Pwning a weak opponent while barely using shikai is noteworthy.
Pwning a weakened elite opponent while using nothing but a hax power up is noteworthy.


Conclusion: both characters are equally pwnsome until further info becomes available.


Since we got that out of the way, how about letting this issue rest till more useful info becomes available? And by useful info I mean at least one serious fight from both characters.

[Chi]

@Ninjabot: The one who hit him wasn't Yami's behind the back attack, but wonderweiss or however you spell it and it did nothing but strike up his interest on how to copy it. When yami fired it he used the gigai replacement. He said it himself as he taunted yami by saying "you thought you hit me but you didn't seem use the replacement either times did you?"

@Smach: That's what i've been trying to tell him, that both are seriously strong but the little we've seen of them is in no way a measure of strength that can be used in a fight between either one.

More info is needed, Plus Grimmjow can't be used as a medium to base their power upon because quite frankly Kenpachi beat Nnoitra and i don't place him anywhere near Urahara or Shinji's capabilities.