Kira Izuru vs Renji Abarai

[Sin]

Now i know Renji has a bankai now but eliminate that from the factor and presume Renji doesn't have a bankai and still a Lieutenant and he's facing off against Kira. Who do you think wins and why?

[SenpaiRetsu]

Great battle idea. finally getting away from the usually suspects such as Byakuya and the gang.

Um i say Kira takes this easily. It's all about matchups, Renji has some very impressive abilities in shikai. however i think if they both release Kira's shikai is much stronger than Renji's. I don't think Renji will get the chance to use the moves he did on Aizen.

Renji's sword is big enough already, if he clashes swords with Kira even 3 times it's over. especially sucks that Renji is horrible in Kidou.

[Hueso Loco]

I voted for "Kira wins but barely", because although Renji is stronger, has a bankai, and more fighting experience. This is all about the match up like Retsu said, even in bankai form Renji would have a hard time beating Kira if Zabimaru gets hit by his sword.

[KholdStare]

Renji's ability to extend his sword would be completely useless if Kira can double the weight of the sword. Kira isn't so bad that he would get utterly destroyed so in a prolonged fight I think Kira has this one. Renji doesn't have much else, as others have mentioned that his kido is pretty terrible.

[Reyin]

Renji's ability to extend his sword would be completely useless if Kira can double the weight of the sword. Kira isn't so bad that he would get utterly destroyed so in a prolonged fight I think Kira has this one. Renji doesn't have much else, as others have mentioned that his kido is pretty terrible.

Ya even though he has bankai and Kira doesn't as far as we know, it still wouldn't matter just because of the mismatch in strengths and weaknesses. The only real way I can think of Renji winning is getting desperate and using his final technique that breaks his sword, and even with that we don't know if it will work over top of Kira's technique.

[Zanga]

Renji is a better fighter then Kira, so maybe he can end it before they go shikai =)

Unless Renji can invoke his Higa Zekko whenever he wants and doesn't have to wait for his zanpaktou to shatter, I think Renji can win. Other than that, Kira has this.

[Llamaking]

Kira takes the cake on this one.

All they have to do is sword clash 3 or 4 times and Renji's sword is too heavy for him. If Renji goes into bankai I think he has a better chance to win, but even so, I think Kira would be able to handle Renji's bankai. Plus if I remember correctly, Kira is much better at Kidoh than Renji, gives Kira another leg up on him.

[B-Eazy]

Renji is definitely stronger, i'd say the difference in there shunpo really wouldn't be drastic enough to make a difference. Kira's shikai would make Renji useless w/o bankai because his kido is basically useless. Kira FTW

[Guy]

Kira definitely stands a chance if Renji doesn't have his bankai. However, one advantage is that Renji has a lot of endurance, and he's quite fast. Kira couldn't even dodge Hitsugaya's shikai, while Renji has shown to be quite fast (can't remember if he could shunpo, though).

Renji's zanpakutou is useless because Kira can double the weight, but with Renji's strength and endurance, he's not gonna go down just because of Wabisuke. I don't see Kira having any major advantage other than doublilng the weight of objects.

[Distained]

In Zabimaru's Bankai form I'm not sure if weight matters. It should already be way too heavy for Renji to swing around using physical strength alone lol

Shikai vs Shikai, Kira should win since Renji wouldn't have anyway to fight back after he's unable to use his sword.

[Lelouch]

Kira's ability to double the weight of his adversary's weapon is very powerful. As others said , Renji's Shikai is big. This makes it an even bigger target for Kira. After a few hit's , Renji would be unable to move. That, combined with his disability to cast Kidoh makes it an easy fight for Kira.

[Seff vi Britannia]

Well to be honest, i think Renji, having a bankai and whatnot, is far stronger than Kira. So lets face it, Kira hitting Renji's sword might never happen - Renji is fast enough to keep up with Byakuya and i seriously doubt that Kira could do that - given his awe at Hitsugaya, king of fail.

So it could just be that Kira can't hit Renji at all. Also, if Renji fires Zabimaru from a distance and Kira uses Wabisuke to defend, thus doubling Zabimaru's weight, the attack will become stronger due to the increased weight. (Momentum = mass X velocity).

So i'd have to say Renji probably wins unless he fights stupidly.

[xiphosforr]

i'm fairly certain the winner would be renji :D

[Zanga]

Well to be honest, i think Renji, having a bankai and whatnot, is far stronger than Kira. So lets face it, Kira hitting Renji's sword might never happen - Renji is fast enough to keep up with Byakuya and i seriously doubt that Kira could do that - given his awe at Hitsugaya, king of fail.

So it could just be that Kira can't hit Renji at all. Also, if Renji fires Zabimaru from a distance and Kira uses Wabisuke to defend, thus doubling Zabimaru's weight, the attack will become stronger due to the increased weight. (Momentum = mass X velocity).

So i'd have to say Renji probably wins unless he fights stupidly.

QFT.

Due to these reasons I change my answer to Renji.

[Lelouch]

Well to be honest, i think Renji, having a bankai and whatnot, is far stronger than Kira. So lets face it, Kira hitting Renji's sword might never happen - Renji is fast enough to keep up with Byakuya and i seriously doubt that Kira could do that - given his awe at Hitsugaya, king of fail.

So it could just be that Kira can't hit Renji at all. Also, if Renji fires Zabimaru from a distance and Kira uses Wabisuke to defend, thus doubling Zabimaru's weight, the attack will become stronger due to the increased weight. (Momentum = mass X velocity).

So i'd have to say Renji probably wins unless he fights stupidly.

Hmhm.. Renji is faster than Kira , that much I agree. But no way he is fast enough to keep up with Byakuya. He merely blocked 1 attack.

Anyway , what you say about the attack getting stronger because of the increased weight is true. But as the power of the attack would grow , so would it's mobility lessen. I doubt that Kira would be like one-shotted , so if he could handle the first few blows Renji would be unable to attack him due to the dramatic penalty his attack speed would gain.

Besides , what matters the most in bleach is reiatsu , one's spiritual power. I don't think weight matter's a lot , seing as how Yoruichi threw a fatass like Yammi with one hand effortlessly.

But I'll give it to you , that arguement was really good and it would close the case if it was a real fight.

[ninjabot]

If Renji kept his offensive blows quick and overhanded the fight should end quickly because of Wabisuke's ability. If Renji attacked from several yards away and Wabisuke blacked a frontal attack, I think the attack would probably fall from the suddenly doubled weight, grinding into the ground without actually hitting Kira. Well, Kira would be pushed back, but probably would gain no injury.

So in otherwords, if Renji swung downward with Zabimaru and Kira blocked, surely Kira would be crushed into the ground. Even if Renji can't use Bankai in this fight, his strength is still that of a Lieutenant who has achieved bankai...so I'm sure his base strength is higher aswell. Kira knows kidou, but I don't know if he's got any bakudou, or if he could use rikujyokoro (that one right there could win the fight for him), so I won't assume.

I give it to Renji.

[Seff vi Britannia]

You're right, he did block one attack. But that one attack came from someone who - up until the fight with bankai Ichigo - was made out to be an utter speed demon. Blocking Byakuya's senka is a feat worthy of acknowledgment in my opinion. Kira's attacks come nowhere near the speed of Byakuya's attacks, and if Renji can block Byakuya's (sorry i'm using his name a lot by the way, it seems repetitive as i post it) "surprise attack" then it's more than likely he's fast enough to sidestep or dodge Kira's strike. The counterargument to this would of course be that Renji had trained to be able to block that specific attack - but i still think it shows Renji has a good amount of speed (at VC level)

Zabimaru's mobility would lower but Renji's been shown to have a good amount of physical strength and he is substantially stronger in most areas of combat than Kira - we can see this by the fact he's achieved bankai wheras Kira hasn't. I believe that Renji would be able to press home the blows and that Kira's sword would work against him by increasing the force of Zabimaru.

Also, in the event that Renji's sword gets so heavy that he can't carry it - he could just drop it. What would he have then? His fists/feet. You might laugh, but just remember that Ichigo took out three vice-captains without a weapon in the space of a few seconds. Renji isn't on Ichigo's level but it shows it's possible to do something, even when unarmed. And no, Renji isn't good at kidou, but if he timed it right he could take Kira totally by surprise. Hell, he took Szyael by surprise and Syzael is one of the most intelligent characters we've seen.

So Renji could do something, even unarmed. Holding Zabimaru dosen't affect his speed - and he's clearly faster than Kira, so if Zabimaru becomes too much of a burden he could just evade Kira while he thinks up a strategy or prepares to use the move he did on Aizen (whose name i forget), which would be amplified gratly by extra weight.

[Sin]

Renji's speed isn't that far behind byakuya's speed if he can see and keep up with Byakuya's shunpo. The proof as they say is in the pudding.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/140/16/
As far as speed goes Renji has Kira, but if they sword should meet even once Kira will double the weight of Renji's sword.

[KholdStare]

Renji's speed isn't that far behind byakuya's speed if he can see and keep up with Byakuya's shunpo. The proof as they say is in the pudding.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/140/16/
As far as speed goes Renji has Kira, but if they sword should meet even once Kira will double the weight of Renji's sword.

I don't agree with this at all. Ichigo was able to block Byakuya's senka (or whatever that shunpo technique is) before he had ANY training for bankai. He was an absolute noob back then and he was still able to block it. Are you going to say that Ichigo's speed at that time was comparable to Byakuya's?

Being able to block his shunpo attack just means good reflexes, not good speed.

[Sin]

Well I only say that because Renji's statement "that he's long been able to see Byakuya in his shunpo and that now his body's fast enough to keep up." Makes me think he fast just not as fast as byakuya but not far far off. if byakuya's an 8 renjis a 7.5 in terms of speed (not well thought out don't kill me just random numbers i selected) Kira's like a 6

[KholdStare]

Well I only say that because Renji's statement "that he's long been able to see Byakuya in his shunpo and that now his body's fast enough to keep up." Makes me think he fast just not as fast as byakuya but not far far off. if byakuya's an 8 renjis a 7.5 in terms of speed (not well thought out don't kill me just random numbers i selected) Kira's like a 6

But that's what I'm saying. Ichigo's body was fast enough to do the SAME thing Renji did when Ichigo had JUST learned the name of his sword. Does this mean they both have comparable speed to Byakuya? No.

You're saying Renji has comparable speed to Byakuya because he could block his shunpo attack. Using that same logic, pre-bankai Ichigo had comparable speed to Byakuya. Which is certainly not true, especially not when Ichigo had just learned the name of his sword.

[Esca]

Reaction Speed =/= Movement Speed. There's nothing else that I need to say that wouldn't be reiterating.

[Sin]

Guys if you look at the scan i had provided he said my body is fast enough to keep up, plus we've seen him shunpo I don't think its reaction speed.

[Esca]

Guys if you look at the scan i had provided he said my body is fast enough to keep up, plus we've seen him shunpo I don't think its reaction speed.

His body is fast enough to REACT to his attacks, not match his speed.

[KholdStare]

Guys if you look at the scan i had provided he said my body is fast enough to keep up, plus we've seen him shunpo I don't think its reaction speed.

His body is fast enough to react, not fast enough to move as fast as Byakuya does. And just because he can shunpo doesn't mean he's as fast as Byakuya. By this logic, anybody who can shunpo can move as fast as Byakuya.

Byakuya used to play tag with the goddess of flash. Even though he couldn't catch her, he still must have been quite a speed demon. What has Renji done to prove that he's just as fast?

[Seff vi Britannia]

Yep, it shows Renji's reaction speed. Which, if it's enough to block Byakuya's senka, is enough to sidestep Kira's attacks - especially given that released Wabisuke is more unwieldy than sealed senbonsakura due to it's shape and size.

If Renji plays it smart he has no reason to get Zabimaru hit by Wabisuke at all - until he wants too - in order to increase the force of his strike. For anyone who reads D. Gray Man, think Lenalee vs. the level 3. Not the same but similar.

[FullMetal Rebel]

Renji would wipe the floor with Kira. Kira can weigh Zabumaru down, but Renji could beat him with bare kidou or hand-to-hand combat.

Kira is weak sauce.

[Lelouch]

Renji would wipe the floor with Kira. Kira can weigh Zabumaru down, but Renji could beat him with bare kidou or hand-to-hand combat.

Kira is weak sauce.

It's not that I like Kira - to the contrary I dislike him because of his silly hair , but you can't just call him 'weak sauce'.

Renji was the reflexes to keep dodging Wabisuke , that much I agree (He does not have Byakuya's speed , which would had been enough to easily outmaneuver and beat Kira though).

But dodging and evading only is no good strategy. In a fight , it is far easier to continue swinging your sword than to dodge the enemy's. And remember , Renji cannot block Kira's sword , he can only evade it - because if he blocked it , Kira's shikai would take effect.

I disagree that the extra weight would add a lot of impact and attack power in his blows. As shown many times throught the series weight means nothing compared to spiritual power. Example: Yoruichi throwing Yammi with one hand.
I could fine dozen's of examples , but I think the above one is enough.

Even if Renji's weapon could cause more damage due to the weight , he would grow considerably slower each time. Considering that he wouldn't be able to completely own Kira with a few hits it would be inevitable that Kira would hit his sword again. Renji's reaction speed would be a lot slower than before , hence Kira could easily hit his Zanpakuto again until it would become so heavy that it would have no use in the fight.

About the part where Renji would be able to defeat Kira bare-handed this is also debatable. Ichigo , who owned 4 Vice-Captains had so much power that he literally destroyed their Zanpakutos. That shows how big their strength difference was. I do not think there's such a power gap between Renji and Kira.

Also , people seem to forget that Kira is also a Vice-Captain. He is not cannon fodder , and he hasn't shown us all his got. I remember him being excellent in Kidoh - that being shown in a flashback in their academy days.

You must calculate all of his abilities and skills , not just his Shikai's ability to see who is stronger.

[Undying]

It's not that I like Kira - to the contrary I dislike him because of his silly hair , but you can't just call him 'weak sauce'.
FMR brings a valid point. Kira is a weaksauce; Renji has not only demonstrated far more impressive combat oriented abilities, he also has a far more impressive history of fighting (tossed from 5th squad because he was constantly brawling, 11th squad 6th seat (drafted into it because of his combat abilities) and 6th squad lieutenant, but Renji also has bankai.

What's Kira got? Stuck in 5th, transferred into 3rd... and a completely worthless shikai (Matsumoto kicked his sorry ass the instant she released... that is very, VERY sad to see for a VC).

Renji was the reflexes to keep dodging Wabisuke , that much I agree (He does not have Byakuya's speed , which would had been enough to easily outmaneuver and beat Kira though).

But dodging and evading only is no good strategy. In a fight , it is far easier to continue swinging your sword than to dodge the enemy's. And remember , Renji cannot block Kira's sword , he can only evade it - because if he blocked it , Kira's shikai would take effect.
Except that Zabimaru relies on momentum in its attacks (it pushes forward) so extra weight will make it more effective. Renji is the better swordsman, the faster swordsman, and the more combat oriented fighter.

I disagree that the extra weight would add a lot of impact and attack power in his blows. As shown many times throught the series weight means nothing compared to spiritual power. Example: Yoruichi throwing Yammi with one hand.
In that case, Wabisuke's ability is plain worthless, eh? Seeing as, basically, anyone with enough spiritual power will be unaffected. The Matsumoto fight demonstrates that weight does matter. Since Zabimaru relies on momentum, Kira's ability will make it more efficient, therefore increasing it's power for the duration of the attack (after that it will become difficult to swing), but the problem is that since Kira will be pushed back because of Zabimaru's power and the added power from the extra weight, Renji will be able to move in and finish him off with the next consecutive swing (max three, remember?).

I could fine dozen's of examples , but I think the above one is enough.
I heartily agree... wait, are we talking your example or mine?

Even if Renji's weapon could cause more damage due to the weight , he would grow considerably slower each time. Considering that he wouldn't be able to completely own Kira with a few hits it would be inevitable that Kira would hit his sword again. Renji's reaction speed would be a lot slower than before , hence Kira could easily hit his Zanpakuto again until it would become so heavy that it would have no use in the fight.
Wait, wait, wait. Are you saying that Renji will need more than his three consecutive attacks to finish Kira off? Seriously? Especially when he will smash Kira to the ground with his extra-heavy sword (you saw what it did to Ichigo)?

I'm not comparing Ichigo to Kira. I'm showing Zabimaru's power compared to Kira's. Kira has nothing to stop Zabimaru with, because lo and behold, Zabimaru relies on pressing the opponent backwards and down.

About the part where Renji would be able to defeat Kira bare-handed this is also debatable. Ichigo , who owned 4 Vice-Captains had so much power that he literally destroyed their Zanpakutos. That shows how big their strength difference was. I do not think there's such a power gap between Renji and Kira.
Who brought up bare-handed into the equation anyway? I agree with you on this; it requires a massive power difference. Captain to vice-captain power difference. Oh wait...

Also , people seem to forget that Kira is also a Vice-Captain. He is not cannon fodder , and he hasn't shown us all his got. I remember him being excellent in Kidoh - that being shown in a flashback in their academy days.
Also, people seem to forget Renji is also a vice-captain and has bankai. Assuming... and that's a massive assumption right there, that Kira and Renji were equal and Renji's clear battle-superiority is notwithstanding, Renji's full power is five times Kira's.

You must calculate all of his abilities and skills , not just his Shikai's ability to see who is stronger.
All abilities accounted for, it's still Renji's victory.

[Zanga]

The only time weight has been shown to be an annoying factor was with matsumoto having a hard time lifting a 100pound sword(which is pretty weird, since my dad lifts 90 pound weightbells every morning easily but that's beside the point), and that was when it was hit 7-8 times i believe.

Renji was able to hold Hihiou Zabimaru easily when it was stretched all the way when smashing those pillars down getting, and controlling of that size and weight requires huge physical strength, meaning he can still fight for a while even with his zanpaktou being heavy.

Edit: Jesus ****ing Christ, Unying's back. How ya doing.

[Lelouch]

Well , if we conclude that Kira's Shikai is completely useless then yes , Renji wins.

But the only time we have seen it on use , it seemed to have an effect. I know my statement that weight does not matter enough to add considerable damage, conflicts with my statement that Kira's ability ( which involved weight ) is useful but no matter how you see it his Shikai can't be like completely crappy. ( Matsumoto had an ability that made her sword turn on something else - it was some kind of ash/air , right? , much like Byakuya's turns itself on petals that's why Kira's shikai didn't trouble her )

Renji is stronger , faster and more combat-oriented than Kira, yes. But Kira is more versatile in a fight. I repeat , that he was shown to have exceptional talent in Kidoh. He might as well have the ability to cast a binding spell
(Remember the Byakuya vs Renji fight? See how easily Renji got pawned by Kido. With Bankai on. ) that could hold Renji there for a few seconds , giving him time to severely wound him - if not kill him.

Anyway , I'm not really the type of guy who is going to debate with huge posts over such a simple matter ( I really don't like Kira enough to support him :p) , read my post agree with it orr disagree if that's what you want :toocool:. I stated my opinion , no matter how false they might be to your eyes.

Bye , and good night gentlemen ^^.

[Zanga]

The only person who has been able to use Binding Spell 66 without the incantation is Byakuya. Rukia, who has been regarded in being good at Kidou had to say the whole thing against the 9th Espada.

Do you believe Kira will have the time so chant the preaching to [insert random shit here, seriously its random] while Renji is massacring Kira with assaults?

[Undying]

Well , if we conclude that Kira's Shikai is completely useless then yes , Renji wins.

But the only time we have seen it on use , it seemed to have an effect. I know my statement that weight does not matter enough to add considerable damage, conflicts with my statement that Kira's ability ( which involved weight ) is useful but no matter how you see it his Shikai can't be like completely crappy. ( Matsumoto had an ability that made her sword turn on something else - it was some kind of ash/air , right? , much like Byakuya's turns itself on petals that's why Kira's shikai didn't trouble her )
Why not? The "ashes" were still weight down, it's just that they were many, invisible, and he could not effectively block their weight-amplified strikes.

You see, Kira's shikai is not completely useless, it's useful in the situation where he cuts the opponent's body, not hits their weapon. Seeing as he cannot hit Renji because of the nature of Renji's attack, it does become worthless. That and he's a weaksacue :p.

Renji is stronger , faster and more combat-oriented than Kira, yes. But Kira is more versatile in a fight. I repeat , that he was shown to have exceptional talent in Kidoh. He might as well have the ability to cast a binding spell
(Remember the Byakuya vs Renji fight? See how easily Renji got pawned by Kido. With Bankai on. ) that could hold Renji there for a few seconds , giving him time to severely wound him - if not kill him.
I forgot to address it. Kira's Kido was good in school. However, as stated by Rukia, being good at school is average in the Gotei itself, so Kira's good Kido skills at school are not necessarily good enough to properly disrupt Renji's bankai. As for his shikai, I don't believe it will go to Kido, since Renji will simply attack, and it would the end.

In the case it does somehow descend into Kido, Kido can be dodged (Renji didn't dodge because Byakuya had him, and Byakuya has been shown to be a very fast spellcaster. Kira hasn't been shown to be as fast (so Renji would most likely be able to dodge it).

In the event he does somehow capture Renji, then there is a chance Renji will not be able to break through the Kido before Kira hits his body, in which case it would be Kira's victory. But as I said, since Kira has not demonstrated amazing Kido skills (accuracy with the chant in a practice field is nothing like accuracy in the middle of a battle without chant and with the enemy attacking you with a powerful weapon).

Anyway , I'm not really the type of guy who is going to debate with huge posts over such a simple matter ( I really don't like Kira enough to support him :p) , read my post agree with it orr disagree if that's what you want :toocool:. I stated my opinion , no matter how false they might be to your eyes.

Bye , and good night gentlemen ^^.
:o You runnin' away, punk?! HUH?!

Nah, I was just bullied into posting in the Bleach section (I didn't want to, actually) and you were the closest post I saw. So no biggie, it's not important enough.

You know you want me.

Hi Zanga, how's it been here without me to actually show you how wrong you are? Boring, eh? :whatevah:

[KholdStare]

Nice to see you here Undying. Long time no see.

Well , if we conclude that Kira's Shikai is completely useless then yes , Renji wins.


I fail to see how it is useless. It seems pretty useful to me.


But the only time we have seen it on use , it seemed to have an effect. I know my statement that weight does not matter enough to add considerable damage, conflicts with my statement that Kira's ability ( which involved weight ) is useful but no matter how you see it his Shikai can't be like completely crappy. ( Matsumoto had an ability that made her sword turn on something else - it was some kind of ash/air , right? , much like Byakuya's turns itself on petals that's why Kira's shikai didn't trouble her )

So many contradictions... it's useful now?
http://planetsmilies.net/confused-smiley-17428.gif

Renji is stronger

How do we know this?
, faster

How do we know this? And even if it was true, he wouldn't be faster than Kira once his sword hits Kira's sword even ONCE.

and more combat-oriented than Kira, yes.

How do we know this?

Bye , and good night gentlemen ^^.
Bye


Do you believe Kira will have the time so chant the preaching to [insert random shit here, seriously its random] while Renji is massacring Kira with assaults?


No, he probably won't. But if Renji has already clashed swords with Kira three or four times, I bet the snail paced Renji wouldn't be able to stop the incantation considering he has no long range after his sword weighs 16 more than normal. You have to remember that his sword would go from being 2x it's weight ---> 4x --->8x ---> 16x.

[Lightey Natsume]

I think Kira takes this becuase although Ren Does know his bankia he cant control it and kira is more powerfull with his shikia being controlled so i think kira takes this.

[Undying]

Nice to see you here Undying. Long time no see.
Good to see you too. Missed my mildly offensive posts? :lol If you don't mind, I'll respond to your comments at Lelouch's posts ;). He/she can reply or not by their choice. Me... I am being bullied into posting :eek13:

I fail to see how it is useless. It seems pretty useful to me.
I'll point out that it would be useless against a weapon such as Senbonzakura or Heineko, or anything with ranged attacks that aren't focused on glancing blows like normal swordfights.

Swordfighting that relies on continues pressure (Renji's, for instance) will be its downfall since the added weight will make it deadlier, and Renji doesn't use multiple blows, he attacks quickly and consecutively.

First strike may be blocked, then the sword is heavier, but given Zabimaru's tendency to knock opponents off their feet unless they have retarded power levels or Renji is trying to impress, Kira will be in trouble after the first blow (plus the sword will be closer to him, and won't have to be actually swung).


So many contradictions... it's useful now?
http://planetsmilies.net/confused-smiley-17428.gif
I love that smiley.

How do we know this?
Bankai. Under regular circumstances (i.e., not prodigies, not retardedly powerful psychos, etc.), anyone with shikai is stronger than those without shikai, and those with bankai are stronger than those without bankai. Since Renji has shikai, and bankai, and is already creeping up to make a not-so-serious Byakuya drop on one knee, it means he's stronger than average VC.

Kira, lacking bankai, would be lower than Renji in terms of strength. Also, in terms of physical build, the muscular Renji will have more strength than the anorectic Kira.

How do we know this? And even if it was true, he wouldn't be faster than Kira once his sword hits Kira's sword even ONCE.
His swings with a normal swords won't be. But with Zabimaru pressing down on Kira, he doesn't need to be faster.

Besides, Renji's body and reflexes can keep up with Byakuya's shunpo movements. Now, if we assume Byakuya isn't faster than every captain, we know Renji can keep up with and react to Captain-level movement. Kira is a vice-captain, so his movement should be slower.

How do we know this?
History. Renji was kicked from 5th squad for being violent and picking brawls (points to combat orientation) and was drafted by the 11th squad, who are known for being combat and brawling oriented (forget the "strongest" crap, those guys are losers). He is then assigned to Byakuya, who is... combat oriented.

No, he probably won't. But if Renji has already clashed swords with Kira three or four times, I bet the snail paced Renji wouldn't be able to stop the incantation considering he has no long range after his sword weighs 16 more than normal. You have to remember that his sword would go from being 2x it's weight ---> 4x --->8x ---> 16x.
Renji can fire Kido of his own. He cannot control his blasts, but if he relies on sheer area effect rather than accuracy, he can stop Kira from firing. Besides, if Kira is busy crossing swords with Renji, he will be busy pushing away Zabimaru, and since Zabimaru will now weight more, he will be forced to divert a lot of energy to it.

I think Kira takes this becuase although Ren Does know his bankia he cant control it and kira is more powerfull with his shikia being controlled so i think kira takes this.
Err... ok... I seem to have misplaced my dictionary, but from what I can pick from this post, you assume that Kira has better control of his shikai (wtf?) and that Renji cannot control his bankai (wrong).

But I have nothing to argue with you about... :musak:

[Lightey Natsume]

I am very sorry!Undying i ment he cant control it greatly

[Esca]

I am very sorry!Undying i ment he cant control it greatly

He CAN control it, he just hasn't mastered its use.

Me... I am being bullied into posting http://forums.bleachportal.net/images/smilies/eek13.gif

:awe:

[KholdStare]

I'll point out that it would be useless against a weapon such as Senbonzakura or Heineko, or anything with ranged attacks that aren't focused on glancing blows like normal swordfights.

Right, but I was referring that it would be pretty useful against Renji.


Swordfighting that relies on continues pressure (Renji's, for instance) will be its downfall since the added weight will make it deadlier, and Renji doesn't use multiple blows, he attacks quickly and consecutively.

Once the sword gets heavy enough, Renji's movements get slow and it takes a longer time to retract. I highly doubt that Kira is such a noob that he would get owned by Renji in the first few hits. If Renji's sword clashes three times, his sword will be 8 times heavier. Renji won't even be able to control it when he extends it.


First strike may be blocked, then the sword is heavier, but given Zabimaru's tendency to knock opponents off their feet unless they have retarded power levels or Renji is trying to impress, Kira will be in trouble after the first blow (plus the sword will be closer to him, and won't have to be actually swung).

Which opponent did Zabimaru knock off his or her feet?


I love that smiley.

Thanks. :winking56


Bankai. Under regular circumstances (i.e., not prodigies, not retardedly powerful psychos, etc.), anyone with shikai is stronger than those without shikai, and those with bankai are stronger than those without bankai. Since Renji has shikai, and bankai, and is already creeping up to make a not-so-serious Byakuya drop on one knee, it means he's stronger than average VC.
Kira, lacking bankai, would be lower than Renji in terms of strength. Also, in terms of physical build, the muscular Renji will have more strength than the anorectic Kira.


The physical ability won't matter much if Renji is swinging around a sword which is 2-8 times heavier than it normally is.


His swings with a normal swords won't be. But with Zabimaru pressing down on Kira, he doesn't need to be faster.

Besides, Renji's body and reflexes can keep up with Byakuya's shunpo movements. Now, if we assume Byakuya isn't faster than every captain, we know Renji can keep up with and react to Captain-level movement. Kira is a vice-captain, so his movement should be slower.


Renji was able to block Byakuya when he was using his normal weight sword. But if he was holding a sword that is 8 times heavier, chances are he probably couldn't even block Kira. And if he could, he would just double the weight again and again and again.


History. Renji was kicked from 5th squad for being violent and picking brawls (points to combat orientation) and was drafted by the 11th squad, who are known for being combat and brawling oriented (forget the "strongest" crap, those guys are losers). He is then assigned to Byakuya, who is... combat oriented.

Yea, I guess he is more of a brawler but as you and I both know, it doesn't prove anything about strength. Shunsui is certainly not a brawler, yet one of the strongest captains.


Renji can fire Kido of his own. He cannot control his blasts, but if he relies on sheer area effect rather than accuracy, he can stop Kira from firing. Besides, if Kira is busy crossing swords with Renji, he will be busy pushing away Zabimaru, and since Zabimaru will now weight more, he will be forced to divert a lot of energy to it.


Now even though it was Matsumoto, she wasn't able to pick up her sword once she fought with Kira. Kira probably has to hit Renji's sword two or three more times than he did with Matsumoto and Renji would be helpless. Kira distances himself and BOOM, fires a kido.

Renji wouldn't even think of using kido early in the match since he never uses kido until he is completely helpless. But if Kira has distanced himself, Renji's kido is useless.

[Undying]

Right, but I was referring that it would be pretty useful against Renji.
I dunno. Pushin' attacks?

Once the sword gets heavy enough, Renji's movements get slow and it takes a longer time to retract. I highly doubt that Kira is such a noob that he would get owned by Renji in the first few hits. If Renji's sword clashes three times, his sword will be 8 times heavier. Renji won't even be able to control it when he extends it.
Well, that's why he has bankai if the first few hits are ineffective. But considering that each consecutive hit will be twice as heavy as the previous one, Kira won't be able to block it effectively.

Which opponent did Zabimaru knock off his or her feet?
Ichigo. It pretty much flung him through every building in the vicinity. Now imagine that each such hit comes with twice the weight of the previous one. Kira would be on his back in no time.

The physical ability won't matter much if Renji is swinging around a sword which is 2-8 times heavier than it normally is.
But he won't be swinging around, and that's my point. He will be attacking Kira. First hit will have normal weight, the immediate following (and the way we saw Zabimaru fight, it can immediately follow with an attack rather than having to be swung much with just a simple turning of the blade) will have twice the weight, and if that isn't enough to knock Kira off his feet, the third one will 4 times the weight. Kira will be down and hurt, and in that scenario Renji has the needed time to move in for another blow.

Yes, he will be slowed down, but with only four times the weight of his sword (2kg*2*4? that's 16 kg, not much) it won't deter him that much.

Renji was able to block Byakuya when he was using his normal weight sword. But if he was holding a sword that is 8 times heavier, chances are he probably couldn't even block Kira. And if he could, he would just double the weight again and again and again.
That is if Kira continues to block, which as I said will become more and more difficult with the next few attacks. Since each attack deals a far heavier damage than the previous one, Kira will be in trouble holding his ground. Once he's down (and the way Zabimaru is swung, it should knock any normal VC through the nearest building.


Yea, I guess he is more of a brawler but as you and I both know, it doesn't prove anything about strength. Shunsui is certainly not a brawler, yet one of the strongest captains.
No, but when it comes to people who are both of the same standing, it would matter. Unless the power difference is massive, combat orientation means a person would have better fighting skills. The whole "killing instinct" stuff. Less hesitation to hit, and so forth. Kira's got trouble on that aspect, so Renji's attacks should be more heavy because he's more prone to combat - more violent.


Now even though it was Matsumoto, she wasn't able to pick up her sword once she fought with Kira. Kira probably has to hit Renji's sword two or three more times than he did with Matsumoto and Renji would be helpless. Kira distances himself and BOOM, fires a kido.

Renji wouldn't even think of using kido early in the match since he never uses kido until he is completely helpless. But if Kira has distanced himself, Renji's kido is useless.
Except that we're back into "Kira can block Renji's attacks". After seeing how Zabimaru flung Ichigo around and what it did to his shoulders, Kira with his more stationary way of combat (he has to let the opponent's sword hit his) would be a far easier target.

And let's admit it, Renji is a bit more muscular than Matsumoto, so he should be able to toss Zabimaru around even when it starts weighting 50+kg per strike. By then, Kira will be getting smacker with a 50kg blade that's already got a painful amount of power with each strike.

Renji's got this, and if his shikai is inadequate, bankai will be more than enough. One Baboon Bone Cannon and Kira is lying on his back with his head up, as if apologizing :o.

I ish witty. Hir me ror.

[Lelouch]

:o You runnin' away, punk?! HUH?!

Nah, I was just bullied into posting in the Bleach section (I didn't want to, actually) and you were the closest post I saw. So no biggie, it's not important enough.

You know you want me.



:Haha , dude.

It wasn't like running away more like , going to sleep after a tiring day :p


@ Kholdstare , about Kira's Shikai. Well , you know Undying has a talent to mess up your ideas. At first I thought Kira's Shikai actually would had been useful in this fight , but now I'm begining to side with him. It probably has little to no use in this battle.

[FullMetal Rebel]

Kira wins this easily he has a more powerful shikai.Renji's shikai>Kira's shikai

Kira is in the bottom tier of VCs. Renji is the most powerful VC. I don't even see why this is debatable.

[Undying]

apparently people's reading skills have decreased. i'm surprised at Undying he's usually sharper. this is a quote of the first post of Chi who set up this battle. shikai renji vs. shikai Kira.

Kira wins this easily he has a more powerful shikai.
I haven't bothered reading through the thread. By the way, you're right that people's reading skills have decreased, because you clearly haven't been reading my posts. Check again and see how I rationalized that Renji won't need bankai.
:Haha , dude.

It wasn't like running away more like , going to sleep after a tiring day :p


@ Kholdstare , about Kira's Shikai. Well , you know Undying has a talent to mess up your ideas. At first I thought Kira's Shikai actually would had been useful in this fight , but now I'm begining to side with him. It probably has little to no use in this battle.
Woah, woah, woah dude! I ain't messing up no ideas. I only kick ass.:whatevah:

[diamondedge]

Great battle idea. finally getting away from the usually suspects such as Byakuya and the gang.

+1 heh!

Anyways, given the fact that Byakuya was able to stop an open assault of Renji's bankai by crossing an unreleased blade across bankai fangs, Kira would have instantly won, IF he was smart or courageous enough to go head to head with a bankai, and this, doubling his weight.

I however don't think he would do that, since he is a pussy. Renji would most likely crush him to smithereens as son as he'd release.

[Undying]

+1 heh!

Anyways, given the fact that Byakuya was able to stop an open assault of Renji's bankai by crossing an unreleased blade across bankai fangs, Kira would have instantly won, IF he was smart or courageous enough to go head to head with a bankai, and this, doubling his weight.

I however don't think he would do that, since he is a pussy. Renji would most likely crush him to smithereens as son as he'd release.
Except that Byakuya is way more powerful than Kira. Oh, and he didn't really block the bankai, he just pressed his sword to it - he was still falling down.

[diamondedge]

That's all Kira would have to do - since touching it means doubling the weight. But I mentioned in my 1st post that Kira wouldn't dare to try that, because he is pansy (weakling).

[Sin]

*@.@ somehow Byakuya managed to make it to this thread anyways... @_@*

@Diamondedge: Welcome back!!!

@ Fullmetal: I think Renji is the only VC to have a bankai (Ikakku is a third seat) Yet i think Yachiru may be stronger then him for some reason... Plus we haven't seen anything from some of the other VC like Nanao, Yachiru, Nemu, 9th divis VC (can't remember his name), 7th Division VC (never knew his name), and 1st division VC.

[Undying]

If he tried to block Renji's bankai the way Byakuya blocked it, he would double its weight and it would crush him again :Haha.

[SenpaiRetsu]

if renji could use bankai then yea kira would get curb stomped because his bankai depends more on crushing people more than cutting them.

but Zabimura is already an oversized sword. it takes someone with Renji's great physical strength to be able to wield it effectively. Zabimura at 16 times the weight cannot be swung. also on top of all that obviously Kira has made techniques where as he doesn't actually block attacks. he probably flails is sword crazily and makes u block his sword 4 times first and after that it's all over. it's a simple as that.

but i think he is weaksauce it's just that his shikaiis the perfect counter to renji's just like masumoto's is the perfect counter to his. it's like rocks paper sissors.

[Undying]

If Renji could use bankai, then yea Kira would get curb stomped. Because his bankai depends more on crushing people more than cutting them.

But Zabimura is already an oversized sword. It takes someone with Renji's great physical strength to be able to wield it effectively. Zabimura at 16 times the weight cannot be swung. Also on top of all that obviously Kira has made techniques where as he doesn't actually block attacks. He probably flails is sword crazily and makes you block his sword 4 times first and after that it's all over. It's a simple as that.

But I think he is a weaksauce it's just that his shikaiis the perfect counter to renji's just like masumoto's is the perfect counter to his. it's like rocks paper sissors.
Except that it's not. If Kira flailed his sword around crazily it wouldn't be effective, since any middle-class swordsman would simply avoid it and enter one of the million openings Kira would present. As it is ineffective, Kira will have to resort to more proper swordsmanship to fight, which in turn can be exploited by Renji's Zabimaru. Since it's more versatile and can change angles more unexpectedly than linear sword slashes, Renji holds the advantage.

As for "Zabimaru is already overweight", it doesn't matter. Any zanpakto used by its wielder weights nothing. Otherwise, Zangetsu would require a massive amount of physical strength to wield - but Ichigo's physique indicates he has nowhere near that much physical strength. Someone with Chad's physique would be more suited to use a weapon the size of Zangetsu.

The weight only comes into effect when Kira's weapon or a similar ability weights it down, but otherwise, it's not overweight.

I also heard - and I admit this is second-hand information so it may not be accurate - that Kubo had stated that normally swords weight nothing to their wielders, but if they are picked by someone else they will be too heavy to use.

Now that we've got flailing out of the way - as incomprehensible as it was anyway - we'll get to Zabimaru's attack patterns. Notice how Renji attacked while fighting Ichigo, and pretty much everyone else: straight forward pushing stab, turn the sword, crash it against the opponent and slide down, and another final pushing stab while the opponent is disoriented.

Now them, that's three hits, so the sword with weight x2, x4, and x8 per attack. The first pushing attack would most likely be blocked because it's pretty straight forward. Now, assuming it doesn't push Kira back and he managed to deflect it, Zabimaru will veer away. It now weights x2 from its original weight - heavy, but not too heavy.

The next attack will crash Zabimaru against Kira and shave him off. Once again, assuming that Renji's strike isn't powerful enough to disorient Kira (from the way Renji fights and the hints dropped he's most likely the strongest VC, being talented enough to actually gain bankai in the 40 years he's been training), this strike with twice the weight of the former will chafe against Wabisuke again.

Now Zabimaru weights x4 from its original weight, and we're in to the final attack. Remember, the impact is 4 times greater than the initial impact, and it's going to twist and smash into Kira again. Once again, assuming Kira is not already flying wild and bleeding from various orifices, this third strike weighting 4 times the first one will knock him off his feet (let's be fair, Ichigo was knocked away fairly easily, and Renji was weaker then), and smash him somewhere.

Zabimaru will retract and Renji will have to attack again, since his sword is weighting 4 times its original weight, he will not have quite the same fast attacks. But that's just it, now that Kira is knocked down and disoriented from such a heavy blow (Renji's base power plus sword weighting 4 times its original weight), he won't be able to block in time. Once he's hit by Zabimaru's saw-blade, he's pretty much doomed, since his muscles will get ripped.

I believe Kira is either using very standard Kendo or has a method of fighting which focuses on absorbing attacks with his sword, since his ability requires contact with the blade. Because of that he will have to absorb attacks, and with Zabimaru's attack pattern, it's a problem for him. It's also that Zabimaru's isn't linear attacking - most other weapons are, just not that one :o.

[edit] Did I just write an essay on the way Renji will beat Kira? God I need to get out.

[KholdStare]

+1 heh!

Anyways, given the fact that Byakuya was able to stop an open assault of Renji's bankai by crossing an unreleased blade across bankai fangs, Kira would have instantly won, IF he was smart or courageous enough to go head to head with a bankai, and this, doubling his weight.

I however don't think he would do that, since he is a pussy. Renji would most likely crush him to smithereens as son as he'd release.

Welcome back.

I think this battle thread is supposed to be non-bankai Renji vs Kira so Renji's bankai is moot.