10 Vastoorodes or vastoorode arrancar?

[Polygon]

Like you all know hitsugaya said 10 vastoorodes would spell doom for SS. And I always thought he meant regular vastoorodes. But afterre-reding it it seemed like he was taliking about 10 vastoorodes turned arrancar. It could jjust be the translation or my dumb self. Anyine know if he was talking about regular vastoorodes or arrancar ones?

http://groups.msn.com/-bleach-/chapter197.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2167

[Sandal Hat]

I personally believe he was talking about vastroodes turning into arrancar. It makes more sense than anything else.

[Zangetsu Tensa]

In context I think he was talking about normal vastoorodes, as he was speaking about the hollows within Aizen's army, not the hybrids. If you look carefully at the sillhouettes of the vastoorodes that Hitsugaya refers to, you can see that the mask and figure is identical to Ulquiorra's, except intact and unbroken.

[Sandal Hat]

What I got out of it was that vastoorodes(human sized hollows) that are turned into arrancars are stronger than a captain which makes more sense than a regular hollow being above the level of a captain and having the potential to become even stronger. The picture provided also looks just like a human sized arrancar which means that the hollow that was hybridized was a human sized hollow which is a vastroode

[Polygon]

I personally believe he was talking about vastroodes turning into arrancar. It makes more sense than anything else.

Me to. It makes sense. Because to me, if a normal vastoorode is that strong than an arrancar vastoorode would be too powerful.

Also that would mean everything would balance out(Non-arrancar):

Vastooroed: captian level

Ajukaru: VC level

Gillian: Officer level

The above heirchy seems most reasonable to me. And it would also make sense that he was talking about arrancars as he knows aizen is making them and has vastoorodes under his command.



In context I think he was talking about normal vastoorodes, as he was speaking about the hollows within Aizen's army, not the hybrids. If you look carefully at the sillhouettes of the vastoorodes that Hitsugaya refers to, you can see that the mask and figure is identical to Ulquiorra's, except intact and unbroken.

He was talking about in aizens forces. And he knows that aizen has vastoorodes and wouls turn them into arrancar.

As for the pics showing them. IThen he was talking about the menos, not aizen forces. And I also belive that was just to show us their figure.

[Zangetsu Tensa]

...That didn't explain how the mask and figure looks like Ulquiorra's except without the broken mask when Hitsugaya is explicitly referring to the vasteroodes. An unbroken and intact mask indicates that the hollow is not yet a hybrid.

If Hitsugaya meant hybrids, I think he would've said hybrid. The images and text support this.

[Polygon]

...That didn't explain how the mask and figure looks like Ulquiorra's except without the broken mask. An unbroken and intact mask indicates that the hollow is not yet a hybrid.

Yes it does. Like I explained then he was explaing about the menos. Then he started speaking in context of aizen and vastoorodes.

EDIT: Here he was talking about the heirchy, not talking about aizen: http://groups.msn.com/-bleach-/chapter197.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2166

Here he immeadly switched to those under aizens command: http://groups.msn.com/-bleach-/chapter197.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2167

It wouldn't make sense for him to talk about arrancar when he was explaing that there are three menos.

They had there masks on because, at the time he was talkig about normal menos: not arrancars.

The "If aizen were to ever" shows a change in topic

[Fariswheel]

IN the translation I have, not Ju ni, he says that if 10 vastrodes turned into arrancar it would cause the end of soul society.

[Polygon]

IN the translation I have, not Ju ni, he says that if 10 vastrodes turned into arrancar it would cause the end of soul society.

That's what I believe as well. What translation do you have?

[Sandal Hat]

Mind showing us a pic?

I wish someone like Ch1hiro or Ju-Ni was here because they know japanese and can tell us exactly what it is Hitsugaya is trying to say

Edit: I posted one somewhere but I can't find it and i have deleted that chapter :(

[Zangetsu Tensa]

Yes it does. Like I explained then he was explaing about the menos. Then he started speaking in context of aizen and vastoorodes.

EDIT: Here he was talking about the heirchy, not talking about aizen: http://groups.msn.com/-bleach-/chapter197.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2166

Here he immeadly switched to those under aizens command: http://groups.msn.com/-bleach-/chapter197.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2167

It wouldn't make sense for him to talk about arrancar when he was explaing that there are three menos.

They had there masks on because, at the time he was talkig about normal menos: not arrancars.

Your argument is flawed in several key areas. Firstly you fail to show the page before those two, in which he talks about the heriarchy of Hollows in Aizen's army. He is consistently talking about those under Aizen's command - he never "switches".

Secondly, your argument is that if he were talking about those under Aizen's command, it automatically means he was talking about hybrids. This is false, and, if you think about it, rather silly. We've not seen any hybrid Gillian, nor do we have any reason to believe that they exist.

Xiao Long has injured Hitsugaya and forced him to go bankai without even unleashing his shikai. Grimmjow was so powerful that Rukia declared him an impossibility, shortly before she got utterly owned by his bare hand. This indicates to me that the vastoroode in the normal states are equal to captains, and when hybrized are actually on a higher level.

[Polygon]

lol, Zangetsu Tensa did you notice that you just agreed with me? I've been saying that normal vastoorodes are captian level and arrancar oneas are above.

[Zangetsu Tensa]

lol, Zangetsu Tensa did you notice that you just agreed with me? I've been saying that normal vastoorodes are captian level and arrancar oneas are above.
I was under the impression that you thought Arrancar Vastoorodes were captain level, my mistake.

It seems we have nothing to argue about then.

[Sandal Hat]

I believe Hitsugaya was reffering to vastroodes that have turned into hybrids are above captain level because he says " We've estimated that there atleast 10 under Aizen's control" ( and Aizen is making and controlling arrancars" and then the scene changes and it shows ulquiorra and yami

Edit: think about it, they are already fighting on par with the arrancars and they meet the discription of vastroodes

[Polygon]

I believe Hitsugaya was reffering to vastroodes that have turned into hybrids are above captain level because he says " We've estimated that there atleast 10 under Aizen's control" ( and Aizen is making and controlling arrancars" and then the scene changes and it shows ulquiorra and yami

Yep. Every thing points that

Vastooroed: captian level

Ajukaru: VC level

Gillian: Officer level


^ non-hynerdizied of course.

[Injektilo]

Yep. Every thing points that

Vastooroed: captian level

Ajukaru: VC level

Gillian: Officer level


^ non-hynerdizied of course.



I'd agree with this hierarchy. I do think however, that Hitsugaya was exaggerating when he said "stronger than any Captain", I'd guess that a fledgling Arrankar Vastorode new to the Shinigami powers like the ones we've seen at the moment, would be on the very upper tier of Captains. Ukitake level, just below Aizen and Yamamoto. These things look powerful but nothing suggests to me that they're quite at the level of the super-Captains yet, although I do think they will be quick to master their power given that it's likely that they're hundreds of years old already. The reason I'd assign them that power-level wouldn't be for any rational in-world reasons, but purely because I don't think that Kubo would create a rich cast of characters only to invalidate them, I think that the Captains can still compete, and that the likes of Yamamoto could dismantle even the most powerful Arrankar. For the moment at least, when they learn to use thier Shinigami powers properly...

I would like to know more about how Hollows are created and how some are more powerful than others, what's different from a human who becomes a Vastorode to a human who becomes just a bog-standard Hollow?

[jonat3]

Hitsugaya stated that vastoorodes are more powerful than any captain. When he talked about 10 vastoorodes being enough to destrpoy SS, he was talking after they were hybridized. Even so, a normal vastoorodes should still atleast be upper captain level at the least.

Vastoorode - upper captain level (around Yamamoto's strength)
Ajucas - mid captain level (around Byakuya, Kenpachi's strength)
Gillian - slightly above VC level strength and below normal captain level due to their stupidity

Hybridized vastoorode - even stronger than Yamamoto
Hybridized ajucas - upper captain level
Hybridized gillian - normal captain level

According to Hitsugaya, the problems started with the ajucas, so captains level people still have problems with ajucas. Ajucas is at minimum normal captain level, never VC level.

I believe it was implied that arrancars are normal hollows that turned hybrid. The text draws a distinction between menos and arrancars. Even if hybrid menos can be called arrancars, only Grimmjow and Urquiorra have proven to possess sufficient power to be one.

[tednfs]

jonat3
i would have to disagree with you
because if that were true
the series would end
i believe along with many others that it's the hybrids that are above any captain level

[Polygon]

Hitsugaya stated that vastoorodes are more powerful than any captain. When he talked about 10 vastoorodes being enough to destrpoy SS, he was talking after they were hybridized. Even so, a normal vastoorodes should still atleast be upper captain level at the least.

Show me where he said a normal vastoorde is stronger than any captian.


Vastoorode - upper captain level (around Yamamoto's strength)
Ajucas - mid captain level (around Byakuya, Kenpachi's strength)
Gillian - slightly above VC level strength and below normal captain level due to their stupidity

Hybridized vastoorode - even stronger than Yamamoto
Hybridized ajucas - upper captain level
Hybridized gillian - normal captain level

I would seriously have to disagree. If that the case Aizen would have been dead. I think in the end yama-jii > Aizen. There is no way anyone in the series can take on around 20 yama-jiis.



I believe it was implied that arrancars are normal hollows that turned hybrid. The text draws a distinction between menos and arrancars. Even if hybrid menos can be called arrancars, only Grimmjow and Urquiorra have proven to possess sufficient power to be one.

Nowmal hollows men any hollow. of any rank.

[StoneTitan]

I still have my dubt we have even seen a Vastoorode.
Yes mayby Grimm & mayby Ulqu, but im not yet convinced.
As for the translation, i have seen other translations, and they didn't say Hybrid Vastoorodes, it said, A normal Vastoorode is stronger then any captain.

That makes sense, how else should 10 of them, be able to defeat 13 captain, 13 vice cap, hundreds of seatet, thusinds upon thusinds of Normal shinigamis.
Unless the Suyiken(SP, the giant bird)
Was what kept them away.

[jonat3]

jonat3
i would have to disagree with you
because if that were true
the series would end
i believe along with many others that it's the hybrids that are above any captain level

It was never mentioned that hybrids were stronger than any captain. Only vastoorodes. Like i said, i never believed there were 20 to begin with. They are quite rare to begin with. If there were 20 vastoorodes, the series WOULD logically have to end.


Show me where he said a normal vastoorde is stronger than any captian.


In nearly every reliable translation it has been stated so. Djudge's translation and M7 being the main ones. It was the chapter where Hitsugaya first introduced the menos types.


I would seriously have to disagree. If that the case Aizen would have been dead. I think in the end yama-jii > Aizen. There is no way anyone in the series can take on around 20 yama-jiis.


That's why i said that there weren't 20 vastoorodes. A vastoorodes could theoretically even rival Yama himself. If we take Hitsugaya literally, not even Yama himself can challenge a normal vastoorodes. Presently, i believe the context there meant that a vastoorodes is stronger than a REGULAR captain. That would still imply that only a very powerful captain could hope to take on a vastoorodes.

The demise of Deroy should have made it clear that not all 20 could have been vastoorodes. He's too weak to be one.

Nowmal hollows men any hollow. of any rank.

When i mean normal hollow, i mean a non-menos hollow. The text draws a distinction between arrancars and menos. Some of the sentences Hitsugaya stated would be illogical if a hybrid menos could be called arrancar. That's why i say that the CONTEXT implies that arrancar are NORMAL hollows turned hybrid.

Regardless, even IF a hybrid menos could be called arrancar, only Grimmjow and Urquiorra have demonstrated to have enough strength to be one.

[Polygon]

In nearly every reliable translation it has been stated so. Djudge's translation and M7 being the main ones. It was the chapter where Hitsugaya first introduced the menos types.

He was talking about those under aizen if I'm not mistaken


That's why i said that there weren't 20 vastoorodes. A vastoorodes could theoretically even rival Yama himself. If we take Hitsugaya literally, not even Yama himself can challenge a normal vastoorodes. Presently, i believe the context there meant that a vastoorodes is stronger than a REGULAR captain. That would still imply that only a very powerful captain could hope to take on a vastoorodes.

But you see a vastoorode is a soul to. It can be weak or strong. I't woulsn't be right to say every vastoorode. Never wa it said a vastoorode couls rival yama. 5 yama-jii's = control of everything. Aizen can't beat 2 yama-jii's no matter what. no one can.In fact everything suggests that a normal vastoorode is somewhere in the captian range.

The demise of Deroy should have made it clear that not all 20 could have been vastoorodes. He's too weak to be one.

While I agree that not all 20 are vastoorodes, I believe was a vastoorode. But he was an exeption. An extremley weak hollow, and was a mistake.

When i mean normal hollow, i mean a non-menos hollow. The text draws a distinction between arrancars and menos. Some of the sentences Hitsugaya stated would be illogical if a hybrid menos could be called arrancar. That's why i say that the CONTEXT implies that arrancar are NORMAL hollows turned hybrid.

ANY hollow can be a arrancar. They just have to be strong enoughf to survive. An arrancar is another way of saying hybrid hollow.

[Zangetsu Tensa]

He was talking about those under aizen if I'm not mistaken
Normal Vastoroode serve under Aizen as well. We determined this before. Working for Aizen does not translate into automatically being a hybrid. If he was talking about hybrid vastoroode, he would've said so.

[Polygon]

Normal Vastoroode serve under Aizen as well. We determined this before. Working for Aizen does not translate into automatically being a hybrid. If he was talking about hybrid vastoroode, he would've said so.

But it's implied. Aizen will use any oppurtunity he can for power. And this includes his army. Even if they aren't arrancar they soon will become one. The menos and lower.

[Zangetsu Tensa]

But it's implied.
No, nothing Hitsugaya says implies this. It's your personal opinion that it makes sense for him to be talking about hybrids, and that's not something you can use as absolute evidence.

[jonat3]

He was talking about those under aizen if I'm not mistaken

Chapter 197

"The strength of a single vastoorode....is above of that of any captain!!"

He was talking about vastoorodes in general. Afterwards, he said that if Aizen had 10 vastoorodes (most likely hybridized, according to Djudge's translation), SS would be doomed.


But you see a vastoorode is a soul to. It can be weak or strong. I't woulsn't be right to say every vastoorode. Never wa it said a vastoorode couls rival yama. 5 yama-jii's = control of everything. Aizen can't beat 2 yama-jii's no matter what. no one can.In fact everything suggests that a normal vastoorode is somewhere in the captian range.

Yama=captain

Single vastoorode= stronger than any captain

They clearly meant EVERY vastoorode (look at the word "single" in front of vastoorode) is stronger than any captain. Presently, the most likely meaning of the context there, is stronger than any REGULAR captain. Yamamoto may still be able to match a vastoorodes in that context. I wouldn't be surprised if they meant it literally though.

While I agree that not all 20 are vastoorodes, I believe was a vastoorode. But he was an exeption. An extremley weak hollow, and was a mistake.

Deroy was definately not a menos ever. I doubt we've seen vastoorodes also. It would be too early to show such powerful creatures IMO.


ANY hollow can be a arrancar. They just have to be strong enoughf to survive. An arrancar is another way of saying hybrid hollow.

Like i said, i believe the text draws a distinction between menos and arrancars. Totally seperate issues.

[Darkness_becomes (me)]

But if Hitsugaya and Renji had to release Bankai without the Arrancar releasing their Zankputou..... that leads me to believe that those two Arrancar might be Vastoorodes. It's possible that they aren't, though.

[ocasas]

Hi guys, i'm from Ju-Ni and let's see if i can clarify this:

Renji was talking about that Aizen used the Hougyoku whenever he met a promising subject and that he will rise their powers...

Then Hitsugaya took the word and explained the types of menos in Aizen's forces (that's the reason for the silhouettes) And then he said that if Aizen were to augment (the powers of or in other words to use the Hougyoku on) 10 Vast Lords (Vastroodes) it will bring doom to SS.

So, it's 10 Vast Lords turned arrancar not 10 Vast Lords...

-----------------------

Watching how things are rigth now, we don't know if all the 20 bothers Aizen was talking about were all Vast Lords, but Looking at Dee Roy, Yamii and Edorad they don't seem Vast Lord turned arrancar to me.

I found this list on a japanese BBS, and I don't know how much of it it's true, but even so, is very interesting:

Title Name Before Release
Arrancar N° 0 : King-Frost : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 1 : Haidoraia : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 2 : Ulquiorra : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 3 : Karazaa : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 4 : Tabirot : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 5 : Foruneusu : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 6 : GrimmJow : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 7 : Barutosu : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 8 : Reoneru : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 9 : Inpaaru : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 10: Gimeru : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 11: Xiao Long : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 12: Il Forte : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 13: Edorad : Adjucha : Volcanica
Arrancar N° 14: Nakiim : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 15: Yammi : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 16: Dee - Roy : Gillian : Bestia de acero magnetico

Let's wait and see how much of it is true...

[Injektilo]

That would be interesting if true, although in all honesty if any of the Arrankar were Gillian, I'd have guessed it'd have been Yami, who seemed not only absurdly stupid, but out of his league against Captain class opposition too. Deiroy's human shape is also a bit strange, since it would in fact suggest that he was Vastroode.

Still, Deiroy as a Gillian makes more sense and fits in with the power hierarchy of the Arrankars better, it'll be interesting to see how it pans out in the next few chapters, hopefully we'll be enlightened further.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

This is an interesting list. It would make sense that there are less than ten Vastoorodes. If they already had ten, then SS should no longer exist. I wonder if King Frost if the giant hollow we saw behind the gillian when Aizen escaped, but Vastoorode are suppose to be the most humanoid of hollows so probably not.

[NykylaiHellray]

I definatley agree that dee roy was a gillian, one reason fot this, is that they called him a failure. Also rukia is vc level basically, so it would be safe to assume that the hy gokyu did not increase de roys power in the slightest, he also was an idiot, and to slow to escape rukias attack. So he would be a gillian.

Whether eldordao was a a second class I am not sure, as it would make sense if he was also gillian. Being one which the hyo gokyu has benifitted his power.
As if he was second class, blady would be dwad. So I would say he was mearly a gillian, where the hy gokyu did increase his power.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

Considering the two seemed evenly matched with a slight advantage going to the arrancar makes me think that Edorad was an ajuca. We've pretty much established that Vastoorodes are captain-level or higher (I side with the latter). The class under them then should be at least as strong as VC's or maybe the weaker captains. Ikkaku is probably more powerful than any other vice-captain except for Renji.......maybe.

[jonat3]

Deroy doesnt fit the description of a gillian. As fas as i know, the hougyokou only allows you to become more powerful. It doesn't give you improved intelligence. Deroy was capable of speech, something i consider impossible for a gillian.

Edorad was most likely also a normal hollow turned arrancar. He doesn't have anything remotely resembling ajucas.

[JenniferJ]

I'm not sure that Aizan has anywhere near the 9 vastoorodes listed there. On the assumption that an augumented vastoorode could defeat a captain with relative ease it's unlikely that prime suspect Ulquiorra is one. Remember in 194 he says that Urahara and Youruch are far beyond their level. If he is an augumented vastoorode he should be a bit more confident that he and friend Yammi would stand a chance.

[jonat3]

I'm not sure that Aizan has anywhere near the 9 vastoorodes listed there. On the assumption that an augumented vastoorode could defeat a captain with relative ease it's unlikely that prime suspect Ulquiorra is one. Remember in 194 he says that Urahara and Youruch are far beyond their level. If he is an augumented vastoorode he should be a bit more confident that he and friend Yammi would stand a chance.

Actually, he said the outcome of a fight between them would be unknown. But i agree, a hybrid vastoorode would theoretically be powerful enough to take both Urahara and yoruichi without fear.

[Sandal Hat]

I don't think the difference in power would be that great, not unless there power is on par with Yamamoto's which I highly doubt. I believe they are stronger than captains but not so far away that a captain can't defeat them by pushing past their limits or training.

[TrueShinobi]

hmm well rukia defeated one with ease so dunno if that was just the weak one or they're all going to me PWND xD

[kobisaki]

Actually, he said the outcome of a fight between them would be unknown. But i agree, a hybrid vastoorode would theoretically be powerful enough to take both Urahara and yoruichi without fear.

Ulquiorra could not have taken Urahara AND Yoruichi at the same time, even though I believe he is a vastoorode because of the shape of his broken mask which is the same as the vastoroode in the shadows that we saw in chapter 197.

Aizen also has the same broken mask as Ulquiorra, as you can see in the last page of chapter 197, so I guess he is a vastoorode, which is logical!

[Aarick]

but...
what about uraharas bankai and yoruichis flash release/bankai.

one thing, idolad seemed surprised by ikkakus bankai was this just becuase he didnt expect ikkaku to have or to use it.

i cant see 1 vastoorode arrancar surviving 2 bankais at once, even when they use thier zanpaktou.

[Polygon]

Actually, he said the outcome of a fight between them would be unknown. But i agree, a hybrid vastoorode would theoretically be powerful enough to take both Urahara and yoruichi without fear.

Yourichi and Urahara are not very good examples. With flash releae she is clearly stronger and any normal captian. Urahara might be a vaizard and we all know he HAS to be stronger than ichigo until the series ends. thats just how it is. I think you are overestiimating the vastoorodes.

[jonat3]

I don't think the difference in power would be that great, not unless there power is on par with Yamamoto's which I highly doubt. I believe they are stronger than captains but not so far away that a captain can't defeat them by pushing past their limits or training.

The vastoroodes do sound really powerful, though. It really sounds like only extremely powerful captains can hope to take one on. If we take the sentence literally, not any of the captains can match a vastoorodes.

hmm well rukia defeated one with ease so dunno if that was just the weak one or they're all going to me PWND xD

Impossible that Deroy was a vastoorodes. These things are atleast more powerful than regular captains, and unless your name is Zaraki, Yama or Aizen, taking one out with just shikai is just impossible.

Ulquiorra could not have taken Urahara AND Yoruichi at the same time, even though I believe he is a vastoorode because of the shape of his broken mask which is the same as the vastoroode in the shadows that we saw in chapter 197.

Aizen also has the same broken mask as Ulquiorra, as you can see in the last page of chapter 197, so I guess he is a vastoorode, which is logical!

True, the mask is the main reason why everyone thinks Urquiorra is a vastoorodes. Personally, i think it's just a coincedence, cause i interpreted the text differently.

Also, the last page depicts Urquiorra's back, not Aizen's back.


Yourichi and Urahara are not very good examples. With flash releae she is clearly stronger and any normal captian. Urahara might be a vaizard and we all know he HAS to be stronger than ichigo until the series ends. thats just how it is. I think you are overestiimating the vastoorodes.

Or maybe you are just underestimating them. The text clearly said that these creatures are very powerful. Judging from the text, even if captains can still take them on, only a powerful captain can hope to do so. And we are only talking about the normal vastoorodes. Imagine what a monster a hybrid vastoorode would have to be.

[Polygon]

Or maybe you are just underestimating them. The text clearly said that these creatures are very powerful. Judging from the text, even if captains can still take them on, only a powerful captain can hope to do so. And we are only talking about the normal vastoorodes. Imagine what a monster a hybrid vastoorode would have to be.

nope I just checked and nothing like that was stated. the only thing that was stated was in context to aizen. to it's sfae to assume that regular vastooroes= captian level.
I belive dee roy was a vastoorode. But he was a terrible mistake. in fact think that he was sorta "crippled" in power.

[jonat3]

nope I just checked and nothing like that was stated. the only thing that was stated was in context to aizen. to it's sfae to assume that regular vastooroes= captian level.
I belive dee roy was a vastoorode. But he was a terrible mistake. in fact think that he was sorta "crippled" in power.


Read it again. It said a single vastoorode is stronger than any captain. That sentence was referring to all the vastoorodes. There can be no mistake how to interpret there. Wether they meant stronger than all captain ranked shinigami's or just stronger than regular captain rank, only THAT is up to interpretation.

And i doubt the hougyokou can actually make a vastoorodes weaker. Deroy would have noticed such a serious downgrade in power. It was implied that he relied too much on Aizen's gifts. Implying that he was weak to begin with.

[Polygon]

Read it again. It said a single vastoorode is stronger than any captain. That sentence was referring to all the vastoorodes. There can be no mistake how to interpret there. Wether they meant stronger than all captain ranked shinigami's or just stronger than regular captain rank, only THAT is up to interpretation.

And i doubt the hougyokou can actually make a vastoorodes weaker. Deroy would have noticed such a serious downgrade in power. It was implied that he relied too much on Aizen's gifts. Implying that he was weak to begin with.

I was saying that he wasa a failure to begin with. I men at birth he was an extemley weak and crappy hollow.

And I just read 197 agai and nothig about any vastooode being stringer than a captian.

[jonat3]

I was saying that he wasa a failure to begin with. I men at birth he was an extemley weak and crappy hollow.

And I just read 197 agai and nothig about any vastooode being stringer than a captian.

Yes, so you agree that Deroy was weak BEFORE he got hybridized? If you agree on that, you also have to agree that he could never be a vastoorodes, since EVERY vastoorode is atleast stronger than a normal captain (well, you would have to agree if you actually read a correct translation).

Which translation are you reading btw? Djudge? M7?

[Polygon]

Yes, so you agree that Deroy was weak BEFORE he got hybridized? If you agree on that, you also have to agree that he could never be a vastoorodes, since EVERY vastoorode is atleast stronger than a normal captain (well, you would have to agree if you actually read a correct translation).

Which translation are you reading btw? Djudge? M7?

I agree that he was weak fore he was hyberdizied. But also know that there are weak and strong vastoorodes. I dought SS spoke to every single vastoorode in exitance and discussed their strengh over tea. I belive that he was a super weak somewha "crippled" hollow before. he was an exeption.

I'm reading it online. http://groups.msn.com/-bleach-/chapter197.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2169

[jonat3]

I agree that he was weak fore he was hyberdizied. But also know that there are weak and strong vastoorodes. I dought SS spoke to every single vastoorode in exitance and discussed their strengh over tea. I belive that he was a super weak somewha "crippled" hollow before. he was an exeption.

I'm reading it online. http://groups.msn.com/-bleach-/chapter197.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2169


Ah. Now i understand why you didn't believe me. That translation you are reading is based on Djudge's incomplete translation. Djudge edited his translation after that scanlation came out to include the line about the vastoorodes being more powerful than captains.

Edit: Djudge's complete translation http://www.bleachforums.com/showthread.php?t=8101&highlight=c197




page 15 is Djudge's explanation



Djudge:
Just as a note on the script:

I earlier missed a line of Hitsugaya's that may have thrown off independent/speed scanlators regarding the true danger of the Vastoorode Menos. Apparently, Hitsugaya also states that a single Vastoorode could overpower a Captain in a straight fight; this development obviously shoots down my later translation of Aizen having to meet and augment these Menos. He merely has to persuade them to fight against Soul Society in his army.

[Sandal Hat]

Jonat3- I'll make a bigger post later but for now.... Do you still think hitsugaya was talking about non hybridized vastroodes even after ocasas just confirmed he was talking about hybridized ones?

btw- there can be weak vastroodes just like there are weak captains. There is a weak link in any organism like a weak dog, cat, army, cow, human and so on and so on

[jonat3]

Jonat3- I'll make a bigger post later but for now.... Do you still think hitsugaya was talking about non hybridized vastroodes even after ocasas just confirmed he was talking about hybridized ones?

btw- there can be weak vastroodes just like there are weak captains. There is a weak link in any organism like a weak dog, cat, army, cow, human and so on and so on

Actually, ocasas was referring to the quote that 10 of them would spell doom for SS. I agree with ocasas on that point, and it's what i've been saying all along. However, when Hitsugaya was talking about the vastoorodes strength, he was talking about the normal non hybrid vastoorodes.

[Sir_unforgiven]

ok so there are 3 forms of aizens army. gillian,ajuukasu and, Vastoorode, turning any of these types of hollows into hybrids would increase their power greatly, sounds like vastoorode are powerful captain level, however i think it is unclear weither hitsugaya means that 10 hyrbid vastoorade or 10 normal vastoorode would spell doom for soul society however i am thinking that he meant hybrid, and even so apparently vastoorode are very rare, now i'm not sure if when aizen said he report to your 20 friends or whatever if he meant they were all vastoorode or just that they were all hybrids, all will be revealed in time.

[Polygon]

ok so there are 3 forms of aizens army. gillian,ajuukasu and, Vastoorode, turning any of these types of hollows into hybrids would increase their power greatly, sounds like vastoorode are powerful captain level, however i think it is unclear weither hitsugaya means that 10 hyrbid vastoorade or 10 normal vastoorode would spell doom for soul society however i am thinking that he meant hybrid, and even so apparently vastoorode are very rare, now i'm not sure if when aizen said he report to your 20 friends or whatever if he meant they were all vastoorode or just that they were all hybrids, all will be revealed in time.

About the 10 he meannt arrancars. Since he was talking in context of aizen. And they seem very rare. Just as rare as it is for non-hyberdizied captian level shiigami to exist.

[jonat3]

About the 10 he meannt arrancars. Since he was talking in context of aizen. And they seem very rare. Just as rare as it is for non-hyberdizied captian level shiigami to exist.

It's still up in the air wether a hybrid menos can be called arrancar though. If i read the text correctly, it kinda implied that arrancars were normal hollows turned hybrid.

[Polygon]

It's still up in the air wether a hybrid menos can be called arrancar though. If i read the text correctly, it kinda implied that arrancars were normal hollows turned hybrid.

Where did this question come from? A hybrid is a combination of 2 or more species. Arrancars are hybrids. no questions asked.

[jonat3]

Where did this question come from? A hybrid is a combination of 2 or more species. Arrancars are hybrids. no questions asked.


No, i know what a hybrid is. What i mean is that the term "arrancar" only applies to normal hollows turned hybrid, while we haven't heard the term yet for hybrid menos. Atleast, that's what i understand from the text.

[Polygon]

No, i know what a hybrid is. What i mean is that the term "arrancar" only applies to normal hollows turned hybrid, while we haven't heard the term yet for hybrid menos. Atleast, that's what i understand from the text.

Menos are normal hollows. Many hollows combine to become one hollow. They are normal in every way. Normal hollows mean non-hyberdizied hollows. so menos are normal hollows.

[jonat3]

Menos are normal hollows. Many hollows combine to become one hollow. They are normal in every way. Normal hollows mean non-hyberdizied hollows. so menos are normal hollows.

I wouldn't call a menos exactly normal. The way Ishida and Ichigo's eyes were popping out the first time they saw one should be testament to that.

[Polygon]

I wouldn't call a menos exactly normal. The way Ishida and Ichigo's eyes were popping out the first time they saw one should be testament to that.

What would you do if you saw a 500 foot monster? They are just a classification of hollow. The term menos is used for a hollow that is made up of other hollows. i is a normal hollow.

[jonat3]

What would you do if you saw a 500 foot monster? They are just a classification of hollow. The term menos is used for a hollow that is made up of other hollows. i is a normal hollow.

I know what you mean with your normal. But when i say normal, i mean non menos hollows. If i want to differentiate if a hollow is hybrid or not, i just say hybrid or non-hybrid.

[Polygon]

I know what you mean with your normal. But when i say normal, i mean non menos hollows. If i want to differentiate if a hollow is hybrid or not, i just say hybrid or non-hybrid.

I don't see how you're confused. An arrancar is a hollow turned hybryid. I'm sure normal refes to all non-arrancar hollows. It would make no sense whatsoever the other way.

[jonat3]

I don't see how you're confused. An arrancar is a hollow turned hybryid. I'm sure normal refes to all non-arrancar hollows. It would make no sense whatsoever the other way.

No, i am not confused. It's just how i happen to choose to differntiate between all the types. Let me rephrase it then if you want me to use different words. :rolleye09

According to my interpretation of the text, arrancars are NON MENOS hollows turned into hybrids.

[Polygon]

No, i am not confused. It's just how i happen to choose to differntiate between all the types. Let me rephrase it then if you want me to use different words. :rolleye09

According to my interpretation of the text, arrancars are NON MENOS hollows turned into hybrids.


They clearly are. arrancars is a term for all hybrid-hollows in general. Hitsugaya clearly said in aizens forces. don't see where you're getting at.

[jonat3]

They clearly are. arrancars is a term for all hybrid-hollows in general. Hitsugaya clearly said in aizens forces. don't see where you're getting at.

If you choose to interpret the words literally, then yes, menos can also become arrancars. I, on the other hand, think that context needs to be considered. And i believe the context implies otherwise.

[Polygon]

If you choose to interpret the words literally, then yes, menos can also become arrancars. I, on the other hand, think that context needs to be considered. And i believe the context implies otherwise.

you can believe what you want, but it makes little to no sense.

[jonat3]

you can believe what you want, but it makes little to no sense.

I'll try to explain why then, cause i see my stance stumps you.

Chapter 197 is the most important chapter. Just give me a moment to gather myself.

Edit: Ok, found an old post of mine over at bleachforums. Not really up to date with recent chapters, but it'll do. Be ready for one biiiiig post.




I think it's time for a thread that summarizes all the relevant quotes concerning the arrancar and menos. Also, i'm going to outline my interpretations and reasons for these said interpretations.

Personally, my belief is that arankaru are normal hollows turned into hybrids. This definition has not been as explicit as in the manga, but i believe when they are talking about "hollows", they meant it in this context.

That said, note that these interpretations are solely based on the english language. I will trust that the most important parts have been correctly translated and will solely concentrate on the information provided by the text.

---------------------

PART 1 : Hitsugaya's quotes

Menos hybrids cannot be called allankars, cause the text draws a distinction between them. There are several comments that reinforce this, but Hitsugaya's comments are the most revealing by far (going from the translations that are out now).

Hitsugaya:"It is true that arankarus are hollows who have removed their masks. The problem is, even if hollows take off their mask, there isn't much they can initially do. Especially if you truly wish to fight SS. In order to achieve their aim, arankarus must somehow become stronger than any menos."

In above quote, it's already apparent that allankars are just normal hollows who take off their mask. This quote directly implies that a menos cannot become an allankar. If a menos could become an allankar, this quote would contradict itself.

From Djudge's translation:
Hitsugaya:"Following the logic of having such drastic increases in the power and volume of the Allankar, it's safe to bet that all these types of Menos have followed suit."

This quote wasn't in M7's translation, but i talked with Djudge and he said this sentence was most definately in the text. In this quote, they are talking about the hybridization of the menos. Again, this sentence considers allankars and menos hybrids as seperate groups.

Djudge said it could be interpreted in another way, but the direct translation from the mandarin text does seem to imply that i atleast correctly interpreted this part.


---------------------------

PART 2 : All other quotes concerning arrancars

Other quotes that aren't as clear but outline the origin and nature of the allankars:

Chapter 175

Aizen:"When the boundary between shinigami and hollow is removed, you can create a new existence capable of achieving new heights. This concept has existed in theory for a long time."

Aizen:"But all of them were worthless trash, and not worthy of being called breakthroughs. Other researchers are bound by stupidity and morality..so no one has ever made any sort of breakthrough either. No one except Urahara Kisuke."

Above quotes seem to imply that hybrids have existed for a long time even before Aizen himself. He said other researchers tried to create hybrids too, but that they failed. This implies that arankarus did not originate with Aizen, but that Aizen jumped on the bandwagon to try perfecting them.


Chapter 187

Kon:"It's nothing like the menos i saw before...
Grand Fisher:"Menos, you say? Don't confuse me with those things! I am an... arankaru! "
Ishin:"The group of hollows who removed their mask to gain shinigami powers."

This quote has GF denying that he is a menos. By the way he words it (he referred to menos as "things") menos are looked down upon by allankars. Is it possible for a hybrid menos to look down on a normal menos? Perhaps. But keep in mind that GF was definately a normal hollow to begin with and that his distaste for menos is probably born from that. It seems to imply that menos and allankars are both completely different things (meaning one can't transform in the other).
Also, the way Ishin words his sentence makes it sound as that allankars have gained hybrid status trough their own methods.

Also, something on vaizaado that may reflect on the allankar.

Chapter 188

Ishin:"Vaizaado. The criminal group of ex-shinigami that uses forbidden spells.. to acquire the power of hollows."

This quote may have nothing to do with arankarus, but it reflects the methods one uses to become a hybrid. Since the vaizaado's uses spells to become hybrids, it's possible that hollows uses similar methods to accomplish the process. Tie this in with Ishin's quote above here and this seems even more credible.

More quotes:

Chapter 188

Urahara:"Then that hollow just now really was... an arankaru, wasn't it?"
Ishin:"Yeah, but comparedto the mock-arankaru that we've seen before...it was at a completely different level. The mock-arankaru that haven't developed that haven't developed much in the past few decades....have suddenly grown in to such a powerful monstrosity.You must know that the person responsible for this must be..Aizen Sousuke. That man..after contacting the mock arankaru, is trying to create real arankaru...by using hougyoku. Even though that one was fairly powerful, it's spiritual power was quite a messy mix, so clearly...that arankaru was still an incomplete prototype. he's probably wondering"how well can one at this level fight?" So he created that prototype to observe it's performance. Right now they are still weak, but hougyoku is immensely powerful...Very soon,he will finish his studies..and he'll lead an army of complete arankaru...to take over the menos grande."

Ishin here implies that GF was the most powerful arankaru he's seen yet. I would say even a mock vastoorode hybrid would be more powerful than GF. This reinforces my belief that menos have never been arankarus.

Chapter 195

Yoruichi:"I had not expected that arankaruto have nearly so hard a hide. The amount of reiatsu compacted into it must be incredible. Kisuke. They are very formidable. Far, far more so..then either you or i..could have ever predicted."

Here Yoruichi admits that the allankars have surprised her in how tough they were. Since a vastoorodes is atleast at the level of Byakuya or Yamamoto, this comment seems strange. If allankars were normal hollows to begin with, this comment would make sense, since she would have sufficient enough reason to be surprised.

Chapter 197

Rukia:"As far as arankarus go..they are simply hollows who have abandoned their masks and claimed shinigami powers. Until now, there have only been a few incomplete ones. When Aizen acquired the hougyoku, however..he was able to complete their transformations..resulting in those two you saw earlier."

This quote once again implies that Aizen did not create the allankars, but visited the ones that already existed to perfect them. It's now obvious to me that allankars have existed for quite some time and used similar techniques as the vaizaados to gain their powers.

-----------------------------

PART 3 : Power levels

Now let's expand this all by considering the relative power levels of all these hollows. We've already seen GF's power when he's not relying on his hybrid abilities. We've also seen his jump to power when modified by the hougyoku. It's safe to say that he was atleast at the level of a menos, since he used menos abilities at the time. For an incomplete arankaru, this jump in power was pretty significant.

Some argued that the space distortion ability was not menos exclusive. They were referring to chapter 3 where Inoue's brother seemingly used a space distortion technique after Ichigo slashed his face. However, this was just him escaping though a wall. Also, Ishida's comments in chapter 154 page 2 seems to imply that the space distortion technique IS exclusive to the menos.

Ulquiorra and Yamii were basically confirmed as more complete arankarus. The basis for saying that was the density of their spiritual pressures. It would be more logical if only normal hollows could become arankarus, since a vastoorode would also have a dense spiritual pressure. If Ulquiorra was also an incomplete arankaru like GF, but was a vastoorode from the beginning, his spiritual pressure would still be very dense. This also seems to imply that SS have never seen arankaru that were originally vastoorodes.

As to judge Ulquiorra and Yamii's strength, his comments in chapter 197 were pretty revealing. Basically he said the outcome between the two of them against Yoruichi and Urahara would be pretty unknown and that's only because they would have to protect Inoue, etc.
If Ulquiorra was a hybrid vastoorode, i would see no reason for him to run away, since even an unaltered one would be on the level of Byakuya or Yamamoto. A hybrid vastoorode would be so powerful, not even someone like Yamamoto might be able to take one on.
Basically, no hybrid vastoorode would ever feel the need to retreat.

According to Hitsugaya, the trouble with menos starts with the ajucas. So an ajucas is powerful enough to cause problems for captain level people. It's safe to say that an ajucas would then atleast be normal captain level in terms of strength. A vastoorode would then be upper captain level.
Since Hitsugaya said that captains have no problems with taking down a gillian, i assume gillian's are VC level. Some people here argued that a gillian is seated level, but since Hitsugaya said that a captain has no problems and didn't say that a VC would have no problems, i can only assume that a VC would still have problems taking a gillian down, so it would have to be atleast VC level.

The terms in level of strength would then be:

gillian=VC
ajucas=normal captain level
vastoorode=upper captain level

Turning them all in hybrids (and judging from the jump in power of GF, and he was only incomplete at that) would turn their power levels at:

hybrid gillian=slightly below normal captain level (they would still be stupid, so i imagine even being hybrids wouldn't increase their strength that much)
hybrid ajucas=mid-upper level captain (atleast at the level of Zaraki or Byakuya)
hybrid vastoorode=beyond upper captain level (meaning not even Yamamoto will be able to handle one)

Now, i've stated near all my reasons as why i think arankarus are normal hollows turned hybrid.

---------------------------

Conclusion :

People seem to think that all 20 are vastoorodes. Also, people seem to think that Yamii and Ulquiorra are vastoorodes. This is an ASSUMPTION. I won't say that it's entirely impossible, but it's abit premature to state this stuff like it's already fact. Personally, i believe the text was pretty clear and that it can only be interpreted in one way concerning the arrancar being normal hollows, but whatever. The best method is just to wait till Kubo reveals all.

Anyways, feel free to add quotes that you may think are relevant or to add something and i may edit it into my post. Naturally, you are also free to disagree with said points. :)

[Sandal Hat]

I'll try to explain why then, cause i see my stance stumps you.

Chapter 197 is the most important chapter. Just give me a moment to gather myself.

Edit: Ok, found an old post of mine over at bleachforums. Not really up to date with recent chapters, but it'll do. Be ready for one biiiiig post.




I think it's time for a thread that summarizes all the relevant quotes concerning the arrancar and menos. Also, i'm going to outline my interpretations and reasons for these said interpretations.

Personally, my belief is that arankaru are normal hollows turned into hybrids. This definition has not been as explicit as in the manga, but i believe when they are talking about "hollows", they meant it in this context.

That said, note that these interpretations are solely based on the english language. I will trust that the most important parts have been correctly translated and will solely concentrate on the information provided by the text.

---------------------

PART 1 : Hitsugaya's quotes

Menos hybrids cannot be called allankars, cause the text draws a distinction between them. There are several comments that reinforce this, but Hitsugaya's comments are the most revealing by far (going from the translations that are out now).

Hitsugaya:"It is true that arankarus are hollows who have removed their masks. The problem is, even if hollows take off their mask, there isn't much they can initially do. Especially if you truly wish to fight SS. In order to achieve their aim, arankarus must somehow become stronger than any menos."

In above quote, it's already apparent that allankars are just normal hollows who take off their mask. This quote directly implies that a menos cannot become an allankar. If a menos could become an allankar, this quote would contradict itself.
I Believe that quote they are comparing regular hollows to non hybridized menos ( a menos can be hybridized since they are actually one being that was formed by many)
From Djudge's translation:
Hitsugaya:"Following the logic of having such drastic increases in the power and volume of the Allankar, it's safe to bet that all these types of Menos have followed suit."
A menos = Gilian, Ajuca and Vastoorode obviously they would follow suit to become an arrancar because it = more power
This quote wasn't in M7's translation, but i talked with Djudge and he said this sentence was most definately in the text. In this quote, they are talking about the hybridization of the menos. Again, this sentence considers allankars and menos hybrids as seperate groups.

Djudge said it could be interpreted in another way, but the direct translation from the mandarin text does seem to imply that i atleast correctly interpreted this part.


---------------------------

PART 2 : All other quotes concerning arrancars

Other quotes that aren't as clear but outline the origin and nature of the allankars:

Chapter 175

Aizen:"When the boundary between shinigami and hollow is removed, you can create a new existence capable of achieving new heights. This concept has existed in theory for a long time."
Agreed
Aizen:"But all of them were worthless trash, and not worthy of being called breakthroughs. Other researchers are bound by stupidity and morality..so no one has ever made any sort of breakthrough either. No one except Urahara Kisuke."
Right
Above quotes seem to imply that hybrids have existed for a long time even before Aizen himself. He said other researchers tried to create hybrids too, but that they failed. This implies that arankarus did not originate with Aizen, but that Aizen jumped on the bandwagon to try perfecting them.
Correct

Chapter 187

Kon:"It's nothing like the menos i saw before...
Grand Fisher:"Menos, you say? Don't confuse me with those things! I am an... arankaru! "
Ishin:"The group of hollows who removed their mask to gain shinigami powers."

He is denying he is a menos because he has become an arrancar from one of the 3 levels of menos listed above
This quote has GF denying that he is a menos. By the way he words it (he referred to menos as "things") menos are looked down upon by allankars. Is it possible for a hybrid menos to look down on a normal menos? Perhaps. But keep in mind that GF was definately a normal hollow to begin with and that his distaste for menos is probably born from that. It seems to imply that menos and allankars are both completely different things (meaning one can't transform in the other).
Also, the way Ishin words his sentence makes it sound as that allankars have gained hybrid status trough their own methods.
He is denying he is a menos because he has become an arrancar from one of the 3 types/forms of menos listed above
Also, something on vaizaado that may reflect on the allankar.

Chapter 188

Ishin:"Vaizaado. The criminal group of ex-shinigami that uses forbidden spells.. to acquire the power of hollows."

This quote may have nothing to do with arankarus, but it reflects the methods one uses to become a hybrid. Since the vaizaado's uses spells to become hybrids, it's possible that hollows uses similar methods to accomplish the process. Tie this in with Ishin's quote above here and this seems even more credible.
Yes, a hollow or shinigami can become a hybrid through those means
More quotes:

Chapter 188

Urahara:"Then that hollow just now really was... an arankaru, wasn't it?"
Ishin:"Yeah, but comparedto the mock-arankaru that we've seen before...it was at a completely different level. The mock-arankaru that haven't developed that haven't developed much in the past few decades....have suddenly grown in to such a powerful monstrosity.You must know that the person responsible for this must be..Aizen Sousuke. That man..after contacting the mock arankaru, is trying to create real arankaru...by using hougyoku. Even though that one was fairly powerful, it's spiritual power was quite a messy mix, so clearly...that arankaru was still an incomplete prototype. he's probably wondering"how well can one at this level fight?" So he created that prototype to observe it's performance. Right now they are still weak, but hougyoku is immensely powerful...Very soon,he will finish his studies..and he'll lead an army of complete arankaru...to take over the menos grande."

Correct, menos have never been arrancars and ofcourse GF was weak since he was more than likely a normal hollow before turning into an arrancar

Ishin here implies that GF was the most powerful arankaru he's seen yet. I would say even a mock vastoorode hybrid would be more powerful than GF. This reinforces my belief that menos have never been arankarus.

Chapter 195

Yoruichi:"I had not expected that arankaruto have nearly so hard a hide. The amount of reiatsu compacted into it must be incredible. Kisuke. They are very formidable. Far, far more so..then either you or i..could have ever predicted."
Vastoorodes= The most powerful form of a menos, they are human sized are very smart, a hybridized one is what Hitsugaya was talking about when he says they are stronger than any other captain. I hate debating this because it seems unintelligent to believe that he was talking about a regular vastoorode being more powerful than any captain. Imagen 10+ Yami-jii's running around, what are you smoking?
Here Yoruichi admits that the allankars have surprised her in how tough they were. Since a vastoorodes is atleast at the level of Byakuya or Yamamoto, this comment seems strange. If allankars were normal hollows to begin with, this comment would make sense, since she would have sufficient enough reason to be surprised.

Chapter 197

Rukia:"As far as arankarus go..they are simply hollows who have abandoned their masks and claimed shinigami powers. Until now, there have only been a few incomplete ones. When Aizen acquired the hougyoku, however..he was able to complete their transformations..resulting in those two you saw earlier."
Correct, there have been arrancars before aizen just like there have been Vaizards
This quote once again implies that Aizen did not create the allankars, but visited the ones that already existed to perfect them. It's now obvious to me that allankars have existed for quite some time and used similar techniques as the vaizaados to gain their powers.

-----------------------------

PART 3 : Power levels

Now let's expand this all by considering the relative power levels of all these hollows. We've already seen GF's power when he's not relying on his hybrid abilities. We've also seen his jump to power when modified by the hougyoku. It's safe to say that he was atleast at the level of a menos, since he used menos abilities at the time. For an incomplete arankaru, this jump in power was pretty significant.

Some argued that the space distortion ability was not menos exclusive. They were referring to chapter 3 where Inoue's brother seemingly used a space distortion technique after Ichigo slashed his face. However, this was just him escaping though a wall. Also, Ishida's comments in chapter 154 page 2 seems to imply that the space distortion technique IS exclusive to the menos.

Ulquiorra and Yamii were basically confirmed as more complete arankarus. The basis for saying that was the density of their spiritual pressures. It would be more logical if only normal hollows could become arankarus, since a vastoorode would also have a dense spiritual pressure. If Ulquiorra was also an incomplete arankaru like GF, but was a vastoorode from the beginning, his spiritual pressure would still be very dense. This also seems to imply that SS have never seen arankaru that were originally vastoorodes.

As to judge Ulquiorra and Yamii's strength, his comments in chapter 197 were pretty revealing. Basically he said the outcome between the two of them against Yoruichi and Urahara would be pretty unknown and that's only because they would have to protect Inoue, etc.
If Ulquiorra was a hybrid vastoorode, i would see no reason for him to run away, since even an unaltered one would be on the level of Byakuya or Yamamoto. A hybrid vastoorode would be so powerful, not even someone like Yamamoto might be able to take one on.
Basically, no hybrid vastoorode would ever feel the need to retreat.

According to Hitsugaya, the trouble with menos starts with the ajucas. So an ajucas is powerful enough to cause problems for captain level people. It's safe to say that an ajucas would then atleast be normal captain level in terms of strength. A vastoorode would then be upper captain level.
Since Hitsugaya said that captains have no problems with taking down a gillian, i assume gillian's are VC level. Some people here argued that a gillian is seated level, but since Hitsugaya said that a captain has no problems and didn't say that a VC would have no problems, i can only assume that a VC would still have problems taking a gillian down, so it would have to be atleast VC level.

The terms in level of strength would then be:

gillian=VC
ajucas=normal captain level
vastoorode=upper captain level
I'm sure you read above what I thought about the idea that regular vastoorodes being on the same level as captains
Turning them all in hybrids (and judging from the jump in power of GF, and he was only incomplete at that) would turn their power levels at:

hybrid gillian=slightly below normal captain level (they would still be stupid, so i imagine even being hybrids wouldn't increase their strength that much)
hybrid ajucas=mid-upper level captain (atleast at the level of Zaraki or Byakuya)
hybrid vastoorode=beyond upper captain level (meaning not even Yamamoto will be able to handle one)

Now, i've stated near all my reasons as why i think arankarus are normal hollows turned hybrid.

---------------------------

Conclusion :

People seem to think that all 20 are vastoorodes. Also, people seem to think that Yamii and Ulquiorra are vastoorodes. This is an ASSUMPTION. I won't say that it's entirely impossible, but it's abit premature to state this stuff like it's already fact. Personally, i believe the text was pretty clear and that it can only be interpreted in one way concerning the arrancar being normal hollows, but whatever. The best method is just to wait till Kubo reveals all.
Yes, that is an assumption up to this point
Anyways, feel free to add quotes that you may think are relevant or to add something and i may edit it into my post. Naturally, you are also free to disagree with said points. http://www.forums.bleachportal.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif I did http://www.forums.bleachportal.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
Okay, here is my post against your said points

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

I have no idea why anyone is discussing what a Vastoorode is. It's clearly stated in the manga. They are the 3rd type of menos hollow with the most humanoid shape and greatest power. That description has nothing to do with the arrancar. Whether or not they're more powerful than any captain normally is up to debate though.

Oops, I responded to a post from the first page thinking it was current. My bad...:D

[jonat3]

I Believe that quote they are comparing regular hollows to non hybridized menos ( a menos can be hybridized since they are actually one being that was formed by many)

No, if a hybrid menos could be called arrancar, that quote wouldn't make any sense. Just substitute "hollow" with menos and you'll see what i mean.

Hitsugaya:"It is true that arankarus are menos who have removed their masks. The problem is, even if menos take off their mask, there isn't much they can initially do. Especially if you truly wish to fight SS. In order to achieve their aim, arankarus must somehow become stronger than any menos."

Do you see how weird that quote would be? Obviously, when Hitsugaya is talking about hollows and arrancars, he's only referring to the non menos hollows.

A menos = Gilian, Ajuca and Vastoorode obviously they would follow suit to become an arrancar because it = more power

Agreed. Menos can become hybrids. When Hitsugaya was talking about 10 being enough to destroy SS, he was referring to the hybrid vastoorode, just like ocasas said.

He is denying he is a menos because he has become an arrancar from one of the 3 levels of menos listed above

We know for certain that GF was NOT a menos to begin with. His disdain for menos is born from that i believe.

Vastoorodes= The most powerful form of a menos, they are human sized are very smart, a hybridized one is what Hitsugaya was talking about when he says they are stronger than any other captain. I hate debating this because it seems unintelligent to believe that he was talking about a regular vastoorode being more powerful than any captain. Imagen 10+ Yami-jii's running around, what are you smoking?

No, he was referring to the regular vastoorodes. Only when he was talking about 10 being enough to destroy SS was he referring to the hybrid vastoorodes. You can ask any translator regarding the strength of a regular vastoorodes and they will all answer the same.

Also, this is one of the reasons why i said that it's unlikely that 10 or 20 of these would be running around.

I'm sure you read above what I thought about the idea that regular vastoorodes being on the same level as captains

Yeah, and you'll need to change these thoughts, cause it's what the text said.

Just ask any translator about the strength of a regular vastoorodes if you don't believe me.

[Sandal Hat]

No, if a hybrid menos could be called arrancar, that quote wouldn't make any sense. Just substitute "hollow" with menos and you'll see what i mean.

Hitsugaya:"It is true that arankarus are menos who have removed their masks. The problem is, even if menos take off their mask, there isn't much they can initially do. Especially if you truly wish to fight SS. In order to achieve their aim, arankarus must somehow become stronger than any menos."
It makes perfect sense, I don't see where you getting at. They have masks, they are hollows, what else is needed.?
Do you see how weird that quote would be? Obviously, when Hitsugaya is talking about hollows and arrancars, he's only referring to the non menos hollows.



Agreed. Menos can become hybrids. When Hitsugaya was talking about 10 being enough to destroy SS, he was referring to the hybrid vastoorode, just like ocasas said.
Yes, 10 hybridized vastoorodes would be enough to destroy SS because they are the ones that are above captain level



No, he was referring to the regular vastoorodes. Only when he was talking about 10 being enough to destroy SS was he referring to the hybrid vastoorodes. You can ask any translator regarding the strength of a regular vastoorodes and they will all answer the same.
I've PMed ocasas, will get back to this one later

[jonat3]

It makes perfect sense, I don't see where you getting at. They have masks, they are hollows, what else is needed.?

Read that quote again carefully.

Hitsugaya:"It is true that arankarus are menos who have removed their masks. The problem is, even if menos take off their mask, there isn't much they can initially do. Especially if you truly wish to fight SS. In order to achieve their aim, arankarus must somehow become stronger than any menos."

It implies here that hybrid menos somehow have to become more powerful than the menos. Do you still think it makes sense?

[Sandal Hat]

Menos = Gilian, Ajuca, and Vastoorode according to my manga and once they remove there mask and become arrancars then they are arrancars. They aren't already hybridized

[jonat3]

Menos = Gilian, Ajuca, and Vastoorode according to my manga and once they remove there mask and become arrancars then they are arrancars. They aren't already hybridized

That's how YOU interpreted the text. I'm saying CONTEXT should be considered. I already supplied the modified quote that demonstrates my point. Now look at that quote and tell me if you still think it makes sense.

A hybrid menos must somehow become more powerful than the menos. That's what the quote suggests if you substitute hollows with menos. Anyone can see that it doesn't make sense.

Edit: Just for clarification, i DO believe that menos can be hybridized. I only doubt that a hybrid menos is called an arrancar, cause i believe context implied that the term arrancar only applies to the non menos hollow hybrid.

If i am correct, that would mean that Urquiorra, Grimmjow and all the others, that none of them had menos origins, since all of them have been identified as arrancar. They woukd all be non menos hollows that turned hybrid.

[Sir_unforgiven]

That's how YOU interpreted the text. I'm saying CONTEXT should be considered. I already supplied the modified quote that demonstrates my point. Now look at that quote and tell me if you still think it makes sense.

A hybrid menos must somehow become more powerful than the menos. That's what the quote suggests if you substitute hollows with menos. Anyone can see that it doesn't make sense.
of course the meaning of the quote changes when you add and subtract words from it, it would sound no different if you changed the word menos to gillian or Vastoorode because menos are only a certain type of hollow, where as the word hollow includes all of the different types. what the quote is saying is initially once any type of hollow removes its mask there isn't a big power increase(which is why aizen is needed) and that in order to defeat ss the arrankaru need to at least have as much raw power as the menos

[jonat3]

of course the meaning of the quote changes when you add and subtract words from it, it would sound no different if you changed the word menos to gillian or Vastoorode because menos are only a certain type of hollow, where as the word hollow includes all of the different types. what the quote is saying is initially once any type of hollow removes its mask there isn't a big power increase(which is why aizen is needed) and that in order to defeat ss the arrankaru need to at least have as much raw power as the menos

Let me give an example of the point i'm trying to make.

All mammals are warm blooded. If this sentence is completely true, that would mean that every species that belongs to the mammals are warmblooded. If we substitute mammals with humans, the statement should still prove true: All humans are warmblooded.

This is the original quote from Hitsugaya:

Hitsugaya:"It is true that arankarus are hollows who have removed their masks. The problem is, even if hollows take off their mask, there isn't much they can initially do. Especially if you truly wish to fight SS. In order to achieve their aim, arankarus must somehow become stronger than any menos."

If above statement is true, and if hollows also include the menos, then the statement after substituting hollows with menos should still prove correct. If it does NOT prove correct, then 2 possibilities exist:

1. The original statement is false
2. When they are talking about hollows, the menos hollow is not included.

I consider Hitsugaya's quote as true, so that would mean possibility 2 should apply.

[kobisaki]

Hey guys, I'm so confused now with all your comments. I think I'll just wait and see what's true and what is not!

[Undying]

You guys are missing a point. When the Menos first appeared, Rukia reffered to him as "A huge Hollow that was created by the unufication of many Hollows." that means that the Menos ARE Hollows, which would mean that when they take of the masks, they BECOME Arrancar, so saying that hybridyzed Menos aren't Arrancars is impossible, as Menos are Hollows, and Arrancar is a name for every Hollow who removed theire masks, than Menos who remove theire masks are Arrancars (I'd say that Ulquarra and the other Vastorodes are actually Menos by origins, since they have more strengh essentially).

[jonat3]

You guys are missing a point. When the Menos first appeared, Rukia reffered to him as "A huge Hollow that was created by the unufication of many Hollows." that means that the Menos ARE Hollows, which would mean that when they take of the masks, they BECOME Arrancar, so saying that hybridyzed Menos aren't Arrancars is impossible, as Menos are Hollows, and Arrancar is a name for every Hollow who removed theire masks, than Menos who remove theire masks are Arrancars (I'd say that Ulquarra and the other Vastorodes are actually Menos by origins, since they have more strengh essentially).

Jeez, i know that menos are also hollows. But you have hollows and you have hollows. The same word can mean a different thing when used in a different context. That's what i'm trying to say here. The context implies that the hollow turned hybrid (arrancar) are only the non menos hollow and doesn't include the menos in that description. We haven't heard yet what a hybrid menos is called. Probably another spanish name.

[Sir_unforgiven]

a hollow menos will still be called an arrankaru its the name given to all HOLLOWS who remove their mask in order to gain shinigami powers, weither any of the arrankaru we've seen so far we're originally menos we have no way of knowing, ANY hollow who removes his mask becomes an arrankaru weither it be menos or any other kind.

[Polygon]

Even IF a hybryid menos had a different name, how would that change anything? it would still be exactly the same. there is no point in naming them something else. none whatsoever.

So you're saying grimjaw isn't a menos? it's bovious that ALL the arrancar exept for GF we;ve seen are menos.

And arrancar menoses are now called arrancar, it seems that they take away there name of menos. so that all arrancars are called arrancars. The term meos arrancars only applies to what you were before you became an arrancar. that is why GF said don't confuse me with the menos.

[jonat3]

a hollow menos will still be called an arrankaru its the name given to all HOLLOWS who remove their mask in order to gain shinigami powers, weither any of the arrankaru we've seen so far we're originally menos we have no way of knowing, ANY hollow who removes his mask becomes an arrankaru weither it be menos or any other kind.

No, it's only certain that any hollow that removes his mask is a HYBRID. Wether it can be called arrancar depends on if the hollow in question was a non menos hollow or a menos.

Even IF a hybryid menos had a different name, how would that change anything? it would still be exactly the same. there is no point in naming them something else. none whatsoever.

So you're saying grimjaw isn't a menos? it's bovious that ALL the arrancar exept for GF we;ve seen are menos.

And arrancar menoses are now called arrancar, it seems that they take away there name of menos. so that all arrancars are called arrancars. The term meos arrancars only applies to what you were before you became an arrancar. that is why GF said don't confuse me with the menos.



If hybrid menos can't be called arrancar, it would matter a great deal. It would immediately shoot down all theories about Urquiorra being vastoorodes, etc.

And it's rather obvious that Deroy could never be a menos. He got killed in ONE SHOT with a mere shikai by rukia for crying out loud. He's far too weak to be menos.

Edorado seems too weak to be vastoorodes as well. A hybrid vastoorode should be extremely powerful (probably more powerful than Yama). No normal shinigami should be able to defeat something like that.

[Polygon]

If hybrid menos can't be called arrancar, it would matter a great deal. It would immediately shoot down all theories about Urquiorra being vastoorodes, etc.

No, I meant if they are called by another name. Since it's obvious grimjaw is a menos.


And it's rather obvious that Deroy could never be a menos. He got killed in ONE SHOT with a mere shikai by rukia for crying out loud. He's far too weak to be menos.


I think he was a meons. just an uber weak one.

Edorado seems too weak to be vastoorodes as well. A hybrid vastoorode should be extremely powerful (probably more powerful than Yama). No normal shinigami should be able to defeat something like that.

I believe eduardo to be an ajukar. And I would die if ANY arrancar could match yama-jii

[jonat3]

No, I meant if they are called by another name. Since it's obvious grimjaw is a menos.


Well, if i am wrong, Grimmjow and Urquiorra would be the closest thing to being vastoorodes hybrid, since they are very powerful. Personally, i don't believe they are menos. They seem too human in thought. As you know, menos are formed out of many hollows. I don't see them behaving as humans, even if the vastoorodes are the most intelligent of the lot.

Also, according to Hitsugaya, there have existed hollows more powerful than the menos. If Aizen found these hollows and hybridized them, they could easily match or outclass a vastoorode. I consider Grimjow to be such a hollow.


I think he was a meons. just an uber weak one.

I doubt even a gillian would be taken out in one shot with only shikai. Unless it was by a captain level shinigami.

Deroy can't be a gillian either, cause he can speak. Gillian's are too stupid to possess the ability of speech.


I believe eduardo to be an ajukar. And I would die if ANY arrancar could match yama-jii

Well, already said my piece on powerful hollows being more powerful than the menos.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

I believe Ulquiorra to be a vastoorode hybrid. Why? Because he shattered Benihime's attack with a backhand, which is equivalent in power to Zangetsu's lunar fang technique. This basically means that he could kill a vice-captain or a seriously injure a captain with just a physical blow. Imagine what he could do with his soul slayer. I don't even want to imagine how powerful he would become with it released.

[Sandal Hat]

Let me say this, all gillian, ajuca and vastoorode's are classified as Menos Grande. (Hitsugaya even classifies the Menos Ichigo fought as a gilian). He calls the second type ajuukaru and the last vastoorode. He then goes on to say "Though followingthe logic of having such drastic increases in the power of and volume of arrankaru, its safe to say that all these types of MENOS have followed suit" Which directly implies that the Menos can be and are arankarus

I think that edorad was a ajuca judging from his size after he released his sword.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

We all know they are classified as menos, but I was under the impression that the name "menos grande" only applies to gillian. What makes you think vastoorodes are under this title as well? The only thing grande about them is their power level. I'll just wait for what Kubo has to say.

[Polygon]

We all know they are classified as menos, but I was under the impression that the name "menos grande" only applies to gillian. What makes you think vastoorodes are under this title as well? The only thing grande about them is their power level. I'll just wait for what Kubo has to say.

Menos- gillian, arajaku and vastoorode

Menos grande is the common name for gillian.

[Fariswheel]

Read that quote again carefully.

Hitsugaya:"It is true that arankarus are menos who have removed their masks. The problem is, even if menos take off their mask, there isn't much they can initially do. Especially if you truly wish to fight SS. In order to achieve their aim, arankarus must somehow become stronger than any menos."

It implies here that hybrid menos somehow have to become more powerful than the menos. Do you still think it makes sense?

Personally, I think that it would make perfect sense, it would mean that the menos must become more powerful than they currently are. If the menos could not overthrow the SS, then they would need more power.

For the current Arankars that we have seen:

Deeroy - No clue, I would think that he is Gillian, but he is the wrong size and shape.

Yamii - ajuca, he is not all that strong, and he is not a basic human shape. He is abnormally large and not all that poweful.

Ulquiorra - vastoorode, he is human shape and seems powerful.

Edorad - see Yamii.

Nakim - see Yamii.

Xiao Long - see Ulquiorra.

Illforte - see Ulquiorra.

Grimjaw - see Uluiorra.

[Sandal Hat]

We all know they are classified as menos, but I was under the impression that the name "menos grande" only applies to gillian. What makes you think vastoorodes are under this title as well? The only thing grande about them is their power level. I'll just wait for what Kubo has to say.Read all of my quote. It is clear that gilian's, ajukaru's and vastoorode's are types of Menos . The big dumb thing that Ichigo fought was a gilian.

[Polygon]

Read all of my quote. It is clear that gilian's, ajukaru's and vastoorode's are types of Menos Grande. The big dumb thing that Ichigo fought was a gilian.

no. they are types of menos. menos grande is the term used for gillians.

[Fariswheel]

It really does not matter if its Menos Grande or just Menos, its really unclear from the manga so far.

[Sandal Hat]

no. they are types of menos. menos grande is the term used for gillians. meh... that wasn't what I wanted the main focus of my post to be on but, i'll change it nonetheless


@Fariswheel "The all share the same attributes and are depicted in soul society's text as Menos Grande" -Hitsugaya when he was talking about gilians. I'll change it to menos grande if it makes it hard to understand for some people when reading my above post.

[Polygon]

Doen';t really matter. But bac k on tpic. I still think that jonats claim makes no sense. to me at least.

[Sandal Hat]

it makes little to know sense to me either which is why have pmed ocasas. He hasn't got back yet though...

[jonat3]

Look, i'm perhaps the ONLY one that's claiming that the term arrancar only applies to none menos hollows. Cause i think it's a matter of interpretation. It would make more sense too, cause i don't think Kubo wants to confuse the reader too much. It matters very much if an arrancar had menos origins or not, cause it effects their power levels. Some characters already died and i find it unlikely that we won't ever know for sure what kind of arrancar they were. If arrancar would all be non menos hollows, it would simplify everything a great deal.
Regardless, i already outlined in one big post why context should be considered.

Atleast there can be no doubt what the strength is of a regular vastoorodes. These things are more powerful than (normal level) captains. Of this atleast, there can be no doubt. Nearly every translator agrees with me on this (as far as i know).

[Yachiru_chan]

Yes I'd agree on that point but the rest sems to be kind of subjective.

[jonat3]

Yes I'd agree on that point but the rest sems to be kind of subjective.

Perhaps. I'm confident enough about my theory, though. If i had a langauge professor look it over, he would probably think the same as me. That's how confident i am.

[Sandal Hat]

Arrancar N° 0 : King-Frost : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 1 : Haidoraia : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 2 : Ulquiorra : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 3 : Karazaa : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 4 : Tabirot : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 5 : Foruneusu : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 6 : GrimmJow : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 7 : Barutosu : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 8 : Reoneru : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 9 : Inpaaru : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 10: Gimeru : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 11: Xiao Long : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 12: Il Forte : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 13: Edorad : Adjucha : Volcanica
Arrancar N° 14: Nakiim : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 15: Yammi : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 16: Dee - Roy : Gillian : Bestia de acero magnetico

-ocasas

Hitsugaya told us himself that gillian, adjuchas, and vastoorodes are types of menos.
Now, why would this member of Ju-Ni go about even presenting this type of information if he didn't think that Gillans adjuchas and vastoorodes could become arrancars?

[jonat3]

Arrancar N° 0 : King-Frost : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 1 : Haidoraia : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 2 : Ulquiorra : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 3 : Karazaa : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 4 : Tabirot : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 5 : Foruneusu : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 6 : GrimmJow : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 7 : Barutosu : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 8 : Reoneru : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 9 : Inpaaru : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 10: Gimeru : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 11: Xiao Long : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 12: Il Forte : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 13: Edorad : Adjucha : Volcanica
Arrancar N° 14: Nakiim : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 15: Yammi : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 16: Dee - Roy : Gillian : Bestia de acero magnetico

-ocasas

Hitsugaya told us himself that gillian, adjuchas, and vastoorodes are types of menos.
Now, why would this member of Ju-Ni go about even presenting this type of information if he didn't think that Gillans adjuchas and vastoorodes could become arrancars?

That's because he thinks that menos are also included in the arrancar description. Context is a pretty tricky thing to interpret. It depends on experience mostly.
Understanding texts is one of my strong points (i read a ton of books and participate on several forums regarding them). If we are basing this on the english language, i'm confident enough that my judgement is correct.

Keep in mind though, that i'm assuming the translators have done a correct job here.

[BigBadBuu]

Hi Guys,

This is my 1st post here, so bear with me... I've been following this topic and would like to add my 2 cents.

We have clear evidence of the power of a Vastroode, namely the Ichigo/Kuchiki fight. By definition, Hollow Ichigo would be a Vastroode no? Here, he's clearly superior to BK and I feel justifies Hitsu's comment that Vastroodes are stronger than Captains.

Some were arguing about what an Arrancar is. "Arrancar" in spanish means to "rip off/away", which would indicate that any hollow (menos or no) who removes his mask is an Arrancar. If you think about it for a second, the Menos control Hueco Mundo and apparently eat lesser Hollows at a whim. GF & Company, I would assume, became Arrancar to level the playing field. The Menos, in response to this, began doing the same.

As we say in the Manga, the Menos also saved Aizen. To me it seems, they need his help-- not just to beat SS, but also to save their Fiefdom in Hueco Mundo. It would then stand to reason that Aizen basically said, "Join me or be devoured by your own" to both incomplete Arrancar and menos that felt the tide turning against them.

I think most the confusion here is coming from people that can't separate Menos, the Hollow class, from Menos, those the rule Hueco Mundo. I find it perfectly reasonable that some menos would defect from the Hueco Mundo side and goto Aizen's side, thus the talk of Aizen conquering Heuco Mundo 1st.

Thoughts?

[jonat3]

Hi Guys,

This is my 1st post here, so bear with me... I've been following this topic and would like to add my 2 cents.

We have clear evidence of the power of a Vastroode, namely the Ichigo/Kuchiki fight. By definition, Hollow Ichigo would be a Vastroode no? Here, he's clearly superior to BK and I feel justifies Hitsu's comment that Vastroodes are stronger than Captains.

Some were arguing about what an Arrancar is. "Arrancar" in spanish means to "rip off/away", which would indicate that any hollow (menos or no) who removes his mask is an Arrancar. If you think about it for a second, the Menos control Hueco Mundo and apparently eat lesser Hollows at a whim. GF & Company, I would assume, became Arrancar to level the playing field. The Menos, in response to this, began doing the same.

As we say in the Manga, the Menos also saved Aizen. To me it seems, they need his help-- not just to beat SS, but also to save their Fiefdom in Hueco Mundo. It would then stand to reason that Aizen basically said, "Join me or be devoured by your own" to both incomplete Arrancar and menos that felt the tide turning against them.

I think most the confusion here is coming from people that can't separate Menos, the Hollow class, from Menos, those the rule Hueco Mundo. I find it perfectly reasonable that some menos would defect from the Hueco Mundo side and goto Aizen's side, thus the talk of Aizen conquering Heuco Mundo 1st.

Thoughts?

I think it's impossible that hollow Ichigo is a vastoorodes. That's cause vastoorodes is a menos and menos are created from multiple hollows. Hollow Ichigo is what Ichigo would have been if he failed to gain his shinigami powers in the shattered shaft. So hollow Ichigo, is only one hollow, not made of many.

As for your other theory, about a rift between the menos, that's a very interesting theory.

[Sgt.Reaper]

I will agree with Octogon, I dont belive Vasoroodes are stronger than Captains, I belive they are equall, but more powerfull when becoming arrancar.
This due to the extreme waste of characters. if normal arrancars would be stronger than any capatin. All the other Shinigamis would be useless and all Kubos development of them would be completly and utterly pointless. And it has been implyed in the way the story have been progressing that SS will be abel to make a difference. And that would be impossible if normal vasorodes would kill them off with ease.

Gillian = VC
Ajucars/Gillian arrancar = High VC/Low Captain.
Vastooroode/Ajucars arrancar = Mid capatin
Vastooroode arrancar = High Captins/above (mostly above depending on experience, 2-3 captains are ranked as high)

[jonat3]

I will agree with Octogon, I dont belive Vasoroodes are stronger than Captains, I belive they are equall, but more powerfull when becoming arrancar.
This due to the extreme waste of characters. if normal arrancars would be stronger than any capatin. All the other Shinigamis would be useless and all Kubos development of them would be completly and utterly pointless. And it has been implyed in the way the story have been progressing that SS will be abel to make a difference. And that would be impossible if normal vasorodes would kill them off with ease.

Gillian = VC
Ajucars/Gillian arrancar = High VC/Low Captain.
Vastooroode/Ajucars arrancar = Mid capatin
Vastooroode arrancar = High Captins/above (mostly above depending on experience, 2-3 captains are ranked as high)

The text clearly said that vastoorodes are more powerful than captains though. It's been put black on white. There can be no doubt about that.

That's why i said ity's unlikely that 20 of these would be running around.

[AltoK]

I have to agree with Sgt. Reaper. If a single vastoorode was stonger than ANY captain, only one vastoorode would be enough to destroy Soul Society, wouldn't it ? There would be no need for ten. He'd just own any shinigami, unscratched and unscratchable.

"Captain level" doesn't mean much. Some captains are times and times stronger than others.

One another point is that if an hybrid vastoorode was stonger than ANY captain, Aizen would not be obeyed by them, as he'd be a weakling compared to them. He'd have been killed by them, I think. Unless they think of him as a father, which I doubt any hollow would be capable of.

Also, Hollow Ichigo isn't a vastoorode, he is a hollow with Ban Kai (he's one of a kind, I guess). There's much difference, as Edorad didn't even know what a Ban Kai was. If one of the arrancar had Ban Kai, they would all know what it is.
Hush-boy says it quite clearly : he is a Vaizard. (I wonder what Vaizards are up to, now the Arrancar have appeared ?)

[blackwinter]

is it safe to assume aizen is currently the strongest of any of the spiritual entities? if these vastoorodes are stronger than he is, why would they listen to him? kyoukasuigetsu or is he actually stronger?

[jonat3]

I have to agree with Sgt. Reaper. If a single vastoorode was stonger than ANY captain, only one vastoorode would be enough to destroy Soul Society, wouldn't it ? There would be no need for ten. He'd just own any shinigami, unscratched and unscratchable.

"Captain level" doesn't mean much. Some captains are times and times stronger than others.

One another point is that if an hybrid vastoorode was stonger than ANY captain, Aizen would not be obeyed by them, as he'd be a weakling compared to them. He'd have been killed by them, I think. Unless they think of him as a father, which I doubt any hollow would be capable of.

Also, Hollow Ichigo isn't a vastoorode, he is a hollow with Ban Kai (he's one of a kind, I guess). There's much difference, as Edorad didn't even know what a Ban Kai was. If one of the arrancar had Ban Kai, they would all know what it is.
Hush-boy says it quite clearly : he is a Vaizard. (I wonder what Vaizards are up to, now the Arrancar have appeared ?)

No, theoretically, if a vastoorodes was stronger than any captain, it only means it's stronger than 1 captain. Two captains would probable be able to take one on. Also, keep in mind that the reason Hitsugaya said 10 are enough, is that Hitsugaya has also considered the VC and seated shinigami's on their side.

Now, it's atleast safe to say that a vastoorodes is stronger than normal level captain. I wouldn't be surprised if they meant it literally though.

[TylerOC]

i think everybody should just stop posting in this thread. jonat3 is obviously COMPLETELY convinced that he is infallible in his theory, and nobody aside from kubo tite himself is going to change his mind.

[Sandal Hat]

i think everybody should just stop posting in this thread. jonat3 is obviously COMPLETELY convinced that he is infallible in his theory, and nobody aside from kubo tite himself is going to change his mind.
Amen to that!

But seriously, it is hard arguing with people who HAVE to be right

[jonat3]

Amen to that!

But seriously, it is hard arguing with people who HAVE to be right

Hehe, i know i'm stubborn at nature, but i have good reason this time. Anyways, like i said before, i'm not forcing you to agree. Everyone is feel to disagree. I'll just wait till Kubo proves i'm right. :winking56

And if i'm not, i'll happily post a pic where i eat my boots. :redbiggri

[Sandal Hat]

Yes, this reminds me of the debate we had along time ago about Zaraki and his shikai

[jonat3]

Yes, this reminds me of the debate we had along time ago about Zaraki about his shikai

Yeah, i know. Atleast i stand for what i believe and properly back my stuff up. I'm also not someone who won't admit he's wrong when it's obvious that it is so.

So. Anyways, if i'm wrong, be prepared to see me eating my boots. :D

[Sir_unforgiven]

is it safe to assume aizen is currently the strongest of any of the spiritual entities? if these vastoorodes are stronger than he is, why would they listen to him? kyoukasuigetsu or is he actually stronger?
i believe that aizen is probably pretty strong, but not as strong as he appears to be, with his complete hypnosis he can trick people into beleiving he's stronger than he actually is, it was shown better in episode 60 of the anime how this works exactly, hitsugaya stabs aizen through the chest with his bankai and freezes him in a block of ice, then aizens body fades from the block of ice and he out of nowhere just slices hitsugaya in half, this leads me to belive he can do somthing like make you think he is in a certain spot, but actually just hypnotize you into believing that he is there and he essentially becomes invisible to you, then he can attack at his leisure, this would explain why he appears with godlike speed in the manga, its actually his hypnotizm, at least this is what i beleive, so i think its possible that the hollows think he is stronger than he actually is, but it could also simply be that they need him in order to become strong enough to win the war against ss

[BigBadBuu]

Gillian's are, yes, made up of many Hollows-- it's probably why they're big, slow, and stupid. We, however, have no clue where the others come from-- that's fact.

Hitsu's description of the meno boiled down to physical characteristics. Taking that into account, Hollow Ichigo could only be a "Vast Lord". I mean, it makes sense completely...

Think about it, Tsai was prepping a level 90+ binding spell incase ichigo turned into a hollow. Do you think a "regular" hollow could ever get to that level? I honestly thing that was the big danger of exceeding the 3-day time limit in the bankai training aswell-- potentially releasing a Vast Lord.

no?

[Sandal Hat]

It says that Menos are made up of multiple hollows not Gillians only.

[BigBadBuu]

It says that Menos are made up of multiple hollows not Gillians only.

Well, back when they said that they were talking about Menos Grande. Not the "grande" part. Back then, that was the only Menos we knew about and it was referred to as "big". The other 2 have since only been refered to as menos, no?

[GaryDAI]

Arrancar N° 0 : King-Frost : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 1 : Haidoraia : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 2 : Ulquiorra : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 3 : Karazaa : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 4 : Tabirot : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 5 : Foruneusu : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 6 : GrimmJow : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 7 : Barutosu : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 8 : Reoneru : Vast-Lord : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 9 : Inpaaru : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 10: Gimeru : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 11: Xiao Long : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 12: Il Forte : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 13: Edorad : Adjucha : Volcanica
Arrancar N° 14: Nakiim : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 15: Yammi : Adjucha : Zanpakutou desconocido
Arrancar N° 16: Dee - Roy : Gillian : Bestia de acero magnetico

-ocasas

I'm a bit confused. I'm assuming that whole list is made up? If it isn't, then wow! Surprised to see Ulquiorra is #2. I thought he'd be around 4 or 5

[Sandal Hat]

?????????????????????

That isn't there powerlevel ranking, it just tells there number.

[jonat3]

About the menos, when rukia first described what a menos was, she was describing the menos in general. Not just the menos grande (gillian). Since ajucas and vastoorodes are also menos, rukia's description should also fit them.

All menos are created from multiple hollows basically. It is for this reason that hollow Ichigo could never be a vastoorodes.

[GaryDAI]

True that, it hasn't been stated that the number indicate their power. But I'm going by that theory for now. It seems to follow that pattern right now.

[TrueShinobi]

grimmjaw on #6 hmm would be really stupid if he is not the most powerful but he is playin the boss xD

[AznPoi]

i'm confused

This is Spam. Please don't post meaningless things.

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

About the menos, when rukia first described what a menos was, she was describing the menos in general. Not just the menos grande (gillian). Since ajucas and vastoorodes are also menos, rukia's description should also fit them.

All menos are created from multiple hollows basically. It is for this reason that hollow Ichigo could never be a vastoorodes.

I'm still not convinced. I have three translations and in all three it specifically mentions menos grande. I'm not saying it couldn't be true, but I just don't by it at the moment. All those compressed souls would explain why gillians are so stupid.

[jonat3]

I'm still not convinced. I have three translations and in all three it specifically mentions menos grande. I'm not saying it couldn't be true, but I just don't by it at the moment. All those compressed souls would explain why gillians are so stupid.

Have you ever read Dune? In Dune there is a similar concept as what we see with the menos. One person had many personalities within him. Most of these people went mad, cause of all the voices (in the menos case, it's just stupidity, cause it's raw primitive emotion). One person however was able to keep his sanity, cause he let the more powerful personalities help him to control the weaker ones.

I think vastoorodes and ajucas have accumulated so many souls that they achieved intelligent thought. It may be similar to Dune or it could be it's the amount of hollows absorbed that matter in order to gain intelligence.

Also, i have read those translations as well. I've talked with a few reliable translators and i think it likely that menos grande only refers to the gillian.

[BigBadBuu]

I'm still not convinced. I have three translations and in all three it specifically mentions menos grande. I'm not saying it couldn't be true, but I just don't by it at the moment. All those compressed souls would explain why gillians are so stupid.

I agree here, when Rukia was describing the Menos Grande, I doubt the mangaka even had the other ties of menos worked out properly.

As it stands, you clearly saw the Gillian forming and consuming other menos. To me it makes sense as to why its both slow and stupid, yet powerful. Would it really stand to reason that Gillians start eating each other to form the most powerful Hollows?

No, I give Kubo Tite more credit than that and am assuming there is more to the hollow story. I'm still of the opinion that the Hollow within Ichigo is a Vast Lord. It fits no other category-- and no, it can't be a regular Hollow as they were prepping a *very* high level spell to contain him.

Urahara, had been screwing around with dangerous/illegal ways to increase his power. #1, "shinigami speed training"; #2, Bankai doll; #3, Hougyoku. My assumption what makes those dangerous is the potential for releasing a Vast Lord. Just look at what the Vaisardo said to Ichigo regardo him becoming a threat-- it was implied that it had happened before. Do you rea