Hougyoku and how Aizen found out

[vision33r]

Created this thread to engage everyone about many of the misunderstandings about the Hougyoku and how Aizen Sasuke found out that Rukia was carrying it...

Misunderstanding that Urahara planted the Hougyoku into Rukia before she met Ichigo is completely false.

- Urahara had been hiding in Real World for almost 100 yrs, no way she could've planted into Rukia during that time without her knowing.

- "Aizen found out about Rukia after she went missing from Soul Society" - this statement is out of context, Aizen actually found out recently and went looking for her and then found out she had it.

- Ichigo had hollow powers because Rukia had the Hougyoku already - completely false, Urahara's technique for transforming Ichigo into Death God took longer than expected and Ichigo actually absorbed both Death God and Hollow powers unnaturally this way.

Here are the supporting clues and reasons when I believe firmly that Urahara placed the Hougyoku inside the gigai(faux body) and gave it to Rukia when she lost her powers to Ichigo.

1) Watch Episode 8, Saidou Eikichirou, the Death God that was sent to get Rukia back to Soul Society, the cloaked and hooded person that gave the mission to Saidou mentioned that Rukia had over-stayed and also stated he wouldn't send Saidou just for something ridiculous like that, there was "another" reason.

This tells me that this hooded person probably works for Aizen and sent Saidou to investigate Rukia.

2) Aizen must suspect that for Rukia to over-stay in Real World Society without getting "caught" requires the Death God be in a faux body and have something that can "hide" the Death God power traces.

And the Hougyoku is the only item that allowed Rukia to go untraceable for weeks.

3) Episode 61 clearly shows that Urahara stepped in and offered Rukia the service after Rukia lost her powers to Ichigo.

So, whoever keeps thinking that Aizen's statement meant Rukia had it before she met Ichigo, simply did not understand or the subbers did not correctly translated the Japanese exactly.

[ChronoTrigga]

That's exactly what I've been saying. But people say that I'm misunderstanding...its blatently obvious if you watch the episodes over.

[jonat3]

It's the gigai that makes rukia untracable, not the hougyoku.

[Jet85]

It's the gigai that makes rukia untracable, not the hougyoku.
Agree there, this special gigai made by Urahara, allows the user's reiatsu to be untraceable, plus it diminishes the user's reiatsu little by little until she/he becomes human :LOL:

[Ryoko]

Id have to agree with all this but havent seen the Ep yet so can someone explain Exactly what the "Hongyoku" is?

[thepolia]

Hougyoku... not exactly sure what it is, but I think it's something that catalyses/enables a Shinigami to mix with a hollow, or vice versa. It'll be of great use to Aizen's experiments in creating hybrids. One thing I'm sure is that Urahara thinks it's dangerous and has tried to destroy it but failed.

[Polygon]

It's the gigai that makes rukia untracable, not the hougyoku.

Agreed. But there is no way that Urahara could have had put the hongyoku in Rukia before she met ichigo.

[jonat3]

Agreed. But there is no way that Urahara could have had put the hongyoku in Rukia before she met ichigo.

What you mean is "unlikely", not to be confused with "impossible". It's still within the realms of possibilities.

[Polygon]

What you mean is "unlikely", not to be confused with "impossible". It's still within the realms of possibilities.

Then how do you propose Urahara knew that rukia would be in the Kuchiki family? Or how he even knew she exited? Like you said it is possible, but the chances are slim to none.

[jonat3]

Then how do you propose Urahara knew that rukia would be in the Kuchiki family? Or how he even knew she exited? Like you said it is possible, but the chances are slim to none.



That, i don't know. For that matter, we don't even know why she was chosen in the first place. It may have had nothing to do with her being part of the Kuchiki family.

I only believe it was placed before she met Ichigo, because of the text itself. I do not think i'm mistaken of it's implications.

[Polygon]

That, i don't know. For that matter, we don't even know why she was chosen in the first place. It may have had nothing to do with her being part of the Kuchiki family.

So your suggesting that he chose a random person is a random district?

I only believe it was placed before she met Ichigo, because of the text itself. I do not think i'm mistaken of it's implications.

What text are ou refering to?

[jonat3]

So your suggesting that he chose a random person is a random district?

No, i think rukia somehow had the requirements where others did not. What these requirements were, is unknown at the moment. Since i do not know how he chose rukia, i also don't know how he noticed rukia as a potential carrier in the first place.

What text are ou refering to?

Aizen:"When i found out about this, you had already dissappeared from the real world."

This sentence seems to suggest that rukia had the hogyoku before meeting Ichigo.

[Polygon]

No, i think rukia somehow had the requirements where others did not. What these requirements were, is unknown at the moment. Since i do not know how he chose rukia, i also don't know how he noticed rukia as a potential carrier in the first place.

Requirments? Do you mean perhaps reitsu? Because if so renji would have had been a better candidate seeing as hw he seemingly has less. Yet putting it within someone who has very minimal reitsu is a even better idea.

Still seems random and VERY unlikley to me.


Aizen:"When i found out about this, you had already dissappeared from the real world."

This sentence seems to suggest that rukia had the hogyoku before meeting Ichigo.

I don't know about you but to me all this suggests is that aizen simply put the pieces of the puzzle toeghter. If I was Aizen I would have had co to the same conclusion.

-Rukia has gone missing.
-Cannot be dected.
-Is pretty powerful ( He probaley knew her power)

If you know these three things along with the knowledge of Uraharas expirments you can conclude wo things. She is either dead or Urahara has leanded her an untracable gigai. And the only reason he would have had to do that is to hide the hongyoku.

^
^ My take on it.

[jonat3]

Requirments? Do you mean perhaps reitsu? Because if so renji would have had been a better candidate seeing as hw he seemingly has less. Yet putting it within someone who has very minimal reitsu is a even better idea.

Still seems random and VERY unlikley to me.

No, not reaitsu. Like i said, i don't know what his requirements were for choosing rukia. However, i doubt he chose her randomly. To me, it's likely that rukia had some specific quality that made her suitable to be a carrier for the hougyoku.



I don't know about you but to me all this suggests is that aizen simply put the pieces of the puzzle toeghter. If I was Aizen I would have had co to the same conclusion.

-Rukia has gone missing.
-Cannot be dected.
-Is pretty powerful ( He probaley knew her power)

If you know these three things along with the knowledge of Uraharas expirments you can conclude wo things. She is either dead or Urahara has leanded her an untracable gigai. And the only reason he would have had to do that is to hide the hongyoku.

^
^ My take on it.


Yeah, but my entire point is with providing that quote, is that Aizen seems to have discovered the location through his own means. Only after he discovered the location did he connect rukia's dissappearance with Urahara.

[Dounick]

wow i think im sure i knew this already

[vision33r]

No, i think rukia somehow had the requirements where others did not. What these requirements were, is unknown at the moment. Since i do not know how he chose rukia, i also don't know how he noticed rukia as a potential carrier in the first place.



Aizen:"When i found out about this, you had already dissappeared from the real world."

This sentence seems to suggest that rukia had the hogyoku before meeting Ichigo.

Once again, you are over analyzing what is a simple conclusion to the reasoning...

Bleach is made for teenagers to understand and you're trying to use an adult's "he said she said.." type of reasoning..

What Aizen "suggested" was merely a Japanese simplified talk of implying that he discovered that Urahara had placed it in her and she dissappeared at the time he came to that conclusion.

Your reasoning has so many "holes" that you have nothing but that one line of blanket statement to back up your "tool" claim.

So far you have no explained what the different scenes such as Rukia visited by Urahara after she lost her powers, meant..

You haven't explained fully how the Hougyoku didn't even effect Rukia before she met Ichigo..

[Polygon]

I agree that Jonat is over-alazing the sentance.

[jonat3]

Once again, you are over analyzing what is a simple conclusion to the reasoning...

Bleach is made for teenagers to understand and you're trying to use an adult's "he said she said.." type of reasoning..

What Aizen "suggested" was merely a Japanese simplified talk of implying that he discovered that Urahara had placed it in her and she dissappeared at the time he came to that conclusion.

Your reasoning has so many "holes" that you have nothing but that one line of blanket statement to back up your "tool" claim.

So far you have no explained what the different scenes such as Rukia visited by Urahara after she lost her powers, meant..

You haven't explained fully how the Hougyoku didn't even effect Rukia before she met Ichigo..

The scene where Urahara came, was to offer the gigai to make the hougyoku invisible. I once thought the hougyoku was placed at the same time. And while i agree that it would be simpler and more convenient if it had been placed at that time, i no longer think it's the only possibilty.
And while bleach is a series for teenagers, it's still pretty complex. The depth and thought that went into this series is pretty impressive.

As for these "holes" you are referring to, i know that i can't explain everything. I just suspect that we simply don't know everything yet concerning the hougyoku and why rukia was chosen. I admitted myself that my knowledge is pretty incomplete concerning this matter.
But Kubo has a knack for surprising us. The surface always seems simple, while a much more complex story hides beneath. The simple story would be that the hougyoku is placed together with the gigai. Aizen's single sentence let me suspect a more complex story. I don't think all has been revealed yet.

The hougyoku didn't affect rukia because a barrier is around it btw.

[Centro]

I agree with jonat3.

What are the "holes" that you see in this theory vision33r?

[Amu]

WOW! You all need a better topic! No conclusions can be made until we get more info! Except that hougyoku was put after she met Ichigo! Well...probably

[zetsword]

jonat3, I'm almost 100% certain you're wrong and not paying enough attention to the information given to you. Hollows can hide their reiatsu, as Aizen said. Hougyoku has hollow and shinigami properties obviously. Aizen said that Rukia went missing in the real world. The real world almost certainly refers to the real world. The gigai would have to be what Hougyoku was placed in because shortly after she got it, she disappeared. Aizen additionally said that he chose hide it inside of Kuchiki Rukia at that time, possibly suggesting there was no one else at the time and he needed to hide it immediately. That's what most certainly it is, I think you're confused by what Aizen means by the real world.

and by real world I mean human world >.>

[jonat3]

jonat3, I'm almost 100% certain you're wrong and not paying enough attention to the information given to you. Hollows can hide their reiatsu, as Aizen said. Hougyoku has hollow and shinigami properties obviously. Aizen said that Rukia went missing in the real world. The real world almost certainly refers to the real world. The gigai would have to be what Hougyoku was placed in because shortly after she got it, she disappeared. Aizen additionally said that he chose hide it inside of Kuchiki Rukia at that time, possibly suggesting there was no one else at the time and he needed to hide it immediately. That's what most certainly it is, I think you're confused by what Aizen means by the real world.

and by real world I mean human world >.>

I think you are misunderstanding me. I'm quite aware what was implied with "real world". I already know it's the human world. I'm also quite aware that it was the gigai that made rukia untracable.
I provided that quote cause it implies that Aizen's discovery of the location of the hougyoku was not connected to rukia's disappearance. Only after he discovered the location did he connect rukia's disappearance with Urahara. If rukia's disappearance was not the reason he discovered the location of the hougyoku, it would imply that the hougyoku was already in rukia before she met Ichigo.

[Sandal Hat]

How couild he find out that the hougyoku was in Rukia before she went missing? He had to connect the dots first, don't you think?

[jonat3]

How couild he find out that the hougyoku was in Rukia before she went missing? He had to connect the dots first, don't you think?

Yeah, i know. But the quote suggests that he didn't locate where the hougyoku was because of rukia's disappearance. Aizen seems to have used his own methods.

[Centro]

Let me break it down a bit.

"When i found out about this, you had already dissappeared from the real world."

So Aizen is doing some sort of research and he discovers that Urahara hid the Hougyoku inside Rukia. He goes 'eureka! Now where the hell is Rukia? Hinamori, where is Rukia?' 'Oh, she has gone missing in the real world.' 'Damn!'

Hence the 'When I found out about this you had already disappeared from the real world.'

[Sandal Hat]

Let me break it down a bit.

"When i found out about this, you had already dissappeared from the real world."

So Aizen is doing some sort of research and he discovers that Urahara hid the Hougyoku inside Rukia. He goes 'eureka! Now where the hell is Rukia? Hinamori, where is Rukia?' 'Oh, she has gone missing in the real world.' 'Damn!'

Hence the 'When I found out about this you had already disappeared from the real world.'
Nice breakdown Centro, I believe this post should settle the debate

[vision33r]

If you guys follow the scenes that lead to Aizen explaining how he discovered, it was clear that Rukia had memories of Urahara appearing after she lost her powers and she related that "incident" and how she had flashbacks of her not able to power up anymore since.

Do you guys actually think that they wasted drawing all those scenes and contradicted themselves if Urahara actually placed the hougyoku BEFORE she met Ichigo!!?

The big holes in jonat3's theory is that Rukia had full Death God powers when she met ichigo and she killed a hollow and was not feeling any loss of power at all.

She actually treated Urahara in the beginning like a stranger and business man, if you recall she spoke to him almost like there is no relations.

It could very well be that Rukia never met Urahara until she lost her powers and Urahara appeared and introduced himself.

So there is no way, Urahara could've planted something inside Rukia, he would have to go back to Soul Society.

There is no way he could visit Soul Society currently.. there is a reason and the hougyoku is the reason, he would've been hunted down.

[Centro]

Do you guys actually think that they wasted drawing all those scenes and contradicted themselves if Urahara actually placed the hougyoku BEFORE she met Ichigo!!?

They weren't wasted, they were there to remind us that Urahara had supplied Rukia with the gigai that was preventing her from regaining her powers.

So there is no way, Urahara could've planted something inside Rukia, he would have to go back to Soul Society.

Then he planted it before he left SS. He found a random (or maybe not random) soul in Rukongai and planted the hougyoku in them. Rukia doesn't need to remember Urahara, the process could have been done while she was unconcious or the process of implantation may have left her without memory of it (like if you hit your head). He was in a hurry to get out of SS, he couldn't take the hougyoku with him cause people who wanted it could just track him down. So he hid it with someone else.

Edit: and I don't understand your first hole about Rukia killing that hollow and her power.

[duncandun]

Pretty sure it was already plainly put in the anime that the gigai that Urahara hid the hougyoku was lent to Rukia after ichigo took her powers. Isen't it obvious? the only reason she was visible to everyone in the world was because she was using the Gigai that urahara gave her.

Oh and in the episode that first shows Urahara's Store, He says somthing to the extent of "Welcome back Rukia".

[jonat3]

I think it likely that he planted the hougyoku before he left too. Cause Urahara himself is incapable of entering SS. He wasn't able to enter the spiritron converter as demonstrated in the anime and manga.

As for the hougyoku, he got banished for the gigai. I'm kinda wondering if SS even knew about the existence of the hougyoku. Aizen certainly seems to know about it, though nobody else seems to. Or perhaps they knew, but Urahara said it was destroyed, who knows.
From Aizen's description, Urahara created the hougyoku in SS itself. We can deduce this, because he still had his captain robe when he tried destroying the hougyoku.

Urahara left SS 100 years ago. Rukia herself is 150 years old. If he planted it on her, she would have been around 50 years old.

Now, i find it a tad unrealistic that Urahara has been holding on to the hougyoku for 100 YEARS and that Aizen only managed to locate it cause it was placed in rukia. It was placed in rukia with the purpose of HIDING the hougyoku, not to instantly reveal it's location.
I don't see Aizen saying "Rukia is missing? Then the hougyoku must be within her! What? How did i happen to deduce that from a person missing? It's instinct i tell you!"

The way i see it, the hougyoku has been in rukia for years. Eventually someone came close to locating it (Aizen) and Urahara decided to take drastic measures, since it seems that just hiding it in a soul wasn't enough. He decided to give rukia the gigai in order to hide rukia's soul. The gigai would have turned her into a human soul, which would have hidden rukia's soul FOREVER.
Since he couldn't have known that rukia would have lost her powers, the event itself must have been a fortunate opportunity for him. Perhaps Urahara somehow orchestrated the event (though i don't see how).

Anyways, if the hougyoku was really planted together with the gigai, there's only one way he could have found out the location of the hougyoku. That's if he somehow possessed an artifact that has the powers of an oracle. Cause he certainly didn't discover the location because she went missing.

[vision33r]

They weren't wasted, they were there to remind us that Urahara had supplied Rukia with the gigai that was preventing her from regaining her powers.



Then he planted it before he left SS. He found a random (or maybe not random) soul in Rukongai and planted the hougyoku in them. Rukia doesn't need to remember Urahara, the process could have been done while she was unconcious or the process of implantation may have left her without memory of it (like if you hit your head). He was in a hurry to get out of SS, he couldn't take the hougyoku with him cause people who wanted it could just track him down. So he hid it with someone else.

Edit: and I don't understand your first hole about Rukia killing that hollow and her power.

I think you and jonat3 should start your own "fan-fiction" incredible amount of contradictions, imaginations, and twisting of facts with your conclusions.

If Urahara planted the item into rukia before he left SS, it would've been easily discovered way in advance.

You ignored my statement and fact that "Rukia regarded Urahara in the beginning as a stranger, like she never met him before."

That scene when Urahara shows up and offer Rukia helped, he asked her if he can help her and it is a formal offer and an introduction of his services.

When Ichigo asked where she get the gigai, Rukia only referred to Urahara as a bad businessman, Ichigo had wondered about Urahara and Rukia can't tell him anymore other than that he is a supplier of SS supplies and didn't know anything about him being the former 12th Captain. Indicates, she never met him in SS ever. So give it a rest.


Finally, this is my final rebuttal before you guys continue running your fan-fiction "spin" on this....

If it is true that Urahara planted it before leaving SS and before Rukia met Ichigo, the directors would definitely create scenes that reflect past history.

The reason they showed all those scenes that Rukia had flashbacks was to give the viewers (12-17yr olds) the impression that the hougyoku was planted along with the gigai.

Remember, the audience is 12-17 yr olds in Japan, those scenes easily make the impression of Urahara helping Rukia after she met Ichigo...

Over and out...

[jonat3]

And you also ignored my statement of bleach still being a complex series. So basically, we are ignoring each other? Ah well.

There's plenty of reasons why those scenes weren't shown. Because it seems obvious to me that Kubo doesn't want to reveal yet why rukia was chosen as the vessel.

Now, you yourself stated i don't use "facts". As far as i'm aware, i used the best facts possible. The text itself. You can't argue with the text. You tried your own hand translating the text and nearly the same result came out. Clearly, we are not arguing if the translation is faulty, but what the english words itself imply.

Also, it's quite easy to label our posts as "imaginary", etc , but most of your points seemed to be based on assumptions too. Atleast the text is more reliable.

[Centro]

I think you and jonat3 should start your own "fan-fiction" incredible amount of contradictions, imaginations, and twisting of facts with your conclusions.

If Urahara planted the item into rukia before he left SS, it would've been easily discovered way in advance.

You ignored my statement and fact that "Rukia regarded Urahara in the beginning as a stranger, like she never met him before."

That scene when Urahara shows up and offer Rukia helped, he asked her if he can help her and it is a formal offer and an introduction of his services.

When Ichigo asked where she get the gigai, Rukia only referred to Urahara as a bad businessman, Ichigo had wondered about Urahara and Rukia can't tell him anymore other than that he is a supplier of SS supplies and didn't know anything about him being the former 12th Captain. Indicates, she never met him in SS ever. So give it a rest.


Look mate, this theory is absolutely supported by the facts we know so far. Any contradictions are soley imagined by you.

Why do you think that the hougyoku would have been "easily discovered way in advance" if it was planted before he left SS? The hougyoku has never been said to be easily trackable or traceable. How exactly would someone find it in Rukia out of the presumably millions of souls in rukongai?

And I did address the reason why Rukia addressed Urahara as a stranger, read my previous post again.

Rukia doesn't need to remember Urahara, the process could have been done while she was unconcious or the process of implantation may have left her without memory of it (like if you hit your head).

So when they met on the street it would be like a first meeting to her.

I have been directly addressing any questions you have asked but it seems you are the one ignoring my answers. Please conside jonat3 and my responses and then propose any questions you have that go against our theory.