anyone believe in heaven?

[Bankai!!]

does anyone here believe in heaven like soul soceity?

[Amu]

I do believe in Heaven in real life...yes

[Epyon94]

I believe in a heaven, cause it's better to believe and be proven wrong, than not and be proven wrong. Also I would like there to be somewhere for me to go after I die (which may be a ling time cause I plan on living for ever)

[ssjharsh]

I do... in a way.. but not really in the sense that you live in heaven... only gods live in heaven..

[Tokoyami]

I believe there is a heaven, but i dont think its gonna be super perfect with no pain and sadness.

What is joy when it cant be compared to pain.

[Fect]

This kind of goes in "Does God Exist." (http://www.forums.bleachportal.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1691)

[Daeruke]

it does n it doesn't

[Raku]

I don't believe there's a thing like god or heaven :O I think I simply want to lay down and sleep forever when I die, Going to heaven and live on there will get boring after a long life on earth

[Hinamori-Chan]

I don't believe in god or heaven.. (Atheist!! Wooh!!)
I find it hard to believe there are ghosts living on top of clouds.
But!! The whole angels and wings and stuff seems pretty cool.
Makes me think of Constantine. :] That movie was so awesomee!!
Is it weird if I believe in angels but not heaven/god?

[Raku]

I don't believe in god or heaven.. (Atheist!! Wooh!!)
I find it hard to believe there are ghosts living on top of clouds.
But!! The whole angels and wings and stuff seems pretty cool.
Makes me think of Constantine. :] That movie was so awesomee!!


outside the contantine part, you read me like an open book ^^ The whole angel thing seems ok and yes all power to the atheists =P

[Hinamori-Chan]

outside the contantine part, you read me like an open book ^^ The whole angel thing seems ok and yes all power to the atheists =P
Yayy!! Someone agrees with me!! I don't feel like a weirdo anymore. XD

[Zattara2222]

well I dont belive in such a place

[Superman Jy]

I believe in heaven. But unlike someone said earlier, I do not believe in "it's better to believe and be proven wrong rather than not believe and be proven wrong." If you think you can be proven wrong when believing in heaven, then there's no point of believing in it in the first place.

[koreasamurai]

then answer 2 is if they want 2. if they want 2 they will if they do not they want i do but other ppl wont of course

[ssjharsh]

Maybe this is heaven.. how much would that suck?

[Chord]

I believe that an idea of heaven exists, but it's non religious, and just a place for spirits to rest. I think that is you die in heaven, you'd probably go back to earth or something... I dunno, you'd really have to find out for yourself, I suppose.

[dai-suki]

i don't think there is a heaven or hell but i hope that if there was it would have all the people and things in life we love the most.

[tednfs]

Another debate that arises my interest.
If one were not to believe in Heaven and Hell..Wudn't one find it scary to just pass AWAY and thats the end? wud it not be better to pass ON..
any thoughts?

[dai-suki]

i no there's definately something after but what i don't know, i've seen spirits so there is something there maybe we just float around scaring people hehe, but it would be kind of scary to think we just pass away and that be the end of it!!

[Ethanol]

I believe in Heaven. Now, what heaven really is like is unknown to us. Some say it is like this world, others say its the whole clouds/angels bit. For all we know, maybe SS is similar to our heaven. *shrugs* Either way, for me heaven does exist.

[Superman Jy]

then answer 2 is if they want 2. if they want 2 they will if they do not they want i do but other ppl wont of course

Ok. I tried using my korean engrish skills as much as possible but... I have no idea what you just said.

Anyways. One time my friend and I were bored and started talking about this. Nothing serious or life changing but just a few ideas. We were saying how God isn't "mean" enough to send anyone to hell and if they're not "good" enough for heaven, God just sends them back to earth in a reincanation type thing. Just a thought.

[Tokoyami]

then answer 2 is if they want 2. if they want 2 they will if they do not they want i do but other ppl wont of course

Wow....i dont think thats qualifys as a human dialect.

Anyways, reincarnation, i dunno, i understand what that means. But from what i kno, god said that he loves every human being, and that that is why he gave us a choice to go to heaven or hell.

Heaven=accepting jesus
Hell=Not accepting jesus

as for sinning...

Sin only determines the amount of rewards you recieve in heaven, so does the amount of time you spend praising/up holding the values of the bible.

Thats about all i kno.

[Sandal Hat]

Anytime spent with me is Heaven ;)

Nah, but I believe in Heaven and that it is there. I just hope God takes pity on my poor soul

[FascionViktem5k]

personally... i don't believe in heaven simply because well... wat do you do there? no one knows... i do believe in reincarnation and karma... although i shouldn't ... but it just seems like a better idea to me... i guess i'm just still forming my ideas and so far... heaven... is just that... an idea that doesn't appeal to me... the same would go for hell as well... does that make sense? yes no maybe?

[SLVR]

Nope I dont belive in heaven. What gonna hapen your body gonna get up and fly to the sky? I dont buy that. Or Soul, I dont now if thier is even such a thing its just a word people use to describe often conceived as an immaterial entity. Same thing with your mind, your body will be dead but your brain wont :rolleyes: evan after its decade, comon now. I dont belive in it. And I respect those who do

[Superman Jy]

What gonna hapen your body gonna get up and fly to the sky?

I still don't see why everyone thinks heaven is about your body getting sent up to fly in the sky. We all know heaven's not in the sky, whether real or not real. And you will agree that we all have souls, right? So don't get the idea of heaven mixed up with your body flying to the sky but your soul being transcended to a "better place."

[Daeruke]

heaven is a place of paradice.. so it exist as long as there is something nice

[Sunfire249]

Wow, I never even thought about this topic ever... I just thought about the gods thing and such... But yeah, I think something LIKE heaven exists. But I agree with some of the earlier posters... If you die and go to heaven or wherever you end up, it'll just be like being granted eternal life in the real world. It'd get kinda... old after awhile.

Of course, unless your an angel or if there's a city... Yeah, I'm starting to contradict myself so I'll stop, but yes I believe in a type of heaven.

[Malle]

I believe in a heaven, cause it's better to believe and be proven wrong, than not and be proven wrong. Also I would like there to be somewhere for me to go after I die (which may be a ling time cause I plan on living for ever)

Then how do you know which afterlife to believe in? And if it happens to be something like CHristianti ydescribes heaven, how do you know that the deity or deities that chose whom to accept wants those, who believe "because it's better to", to be accepted into their paradise?

I don't believe in any afterlife. If any deity or any deities exist, and they require me to follow them in a way I see as blind faith, then I'd rather risk condemnation by an entity I see no proof for than submitting to forementioned entity's alleged power.

Another debate that arises my interest.
If one were not to believe in Heaven and Hell..Wudn't one find it scary to just pass AWAY and thats the end? wud it not be better to pass ON..
any thoughts?

Does your believes in the case matter? If I believe that there is no gravity, will I be able to fly?

If I have nothing to regret, I should have no reason to be afraid of dieing.

[tednfs]

Then how do you know which afterlife to believe in? And if it happens to be something like CHristianti ydescribes heaven, how do you know that the deity or deities that chose whom to accept wants those, who believe "because it's better to", to be accepted into their paradise?

I don't believe in any afterlife. If any deity or any deities exist, and they require me to follow them in a way I see as blind faith, then I'd rather risk condemnation by an entity I see no proof for than submitting to forementioned entity's alleged power.



Does your believes in the case matter? If I believe that there is no gravity, will I be able to fly?

If I have nothing to regret, I should have no reason to be afraid of dieing.

But you are now bringing in something else. There is proof that there is something entitled gravity. However there is no proof that heaven exists or doesn't exist.Same thing as Hell. But I'm saying if one were to believe, one has taken a bargain which can end up either way. IF there is no heaven atleast u tried believing, but if not..u'll lost time believing but you will be at ease. Try to understand from my point of view. :toocool:

[plub]

Are you speaking of the christian heaven?

I dont believe in heaven, or hell, but it is rather intresting to see how far humans are willing to go to save themselves from what they call "eternal damnation".

[Malle]

But you are now bringing in something else. There is proof that there is something entitled gravity. However there is no proof that heaven exists or doesn't exist.Same thing as Hell.That is not the point.
Does it matter whether or not you believe there is an afterlife? Will your believes change what happens when you die? If not, does it matter whether or not you believe in an afterlife when you die, as long as you feel as if you've done the right thing?

The thing is that I don't feel a need for believing that I will live eternally in a paradise after dieing to feel that I can die without regrets.


But I'm saying if one were to believe, one has taken a bargain which can end up either way. IF there is no heaven atleast u tried believing, but if not..u'll lost time believing but you will be at ease."At least you tried believing" seems to imply that I tried to do what's right, namely believing. As I don't believe there is an afterlife, not only would I lose time in what I believe is my only life, but I would also be a hypocrite, which I would regret, and thus not be at ease.

On top of that, your point assumes that either a god that rewards your type of faith exists, or no god at all exist. What if there exists a god that condemn faith in your belief?


Try to understand from my point of view. :toocool:It is hard, as I do not agree with the reasoning you use.

[yumisan]

hmn..speaking of heaven..well i do believe there is heaven but i don't believe in hell.weird me that i believe in heaven but not hell.don't ask me why because i don't really know the reason actually.To me heaven is heaven and hell to me is earth.lol.
well not totally hell(for earth)there is in my believe that hell does not consist of the worst part but there is a good part to.so i think that earth suit the best.though it is only my opinion.

[tednfs]

My responses are according to your reply from my quotes. This is Mulle


It actually depends on what you believe to be the right thing. Therefore we are talking about interesting relativsm. what actually can one call moral? Your life does not change whether you are agonistic or not, as all will pass away at a certain period of time. You bring up the topic of the belief in it will change your life. I simply stated that it is harder for you to accept the complexity of life. You chose the easiet way out.


You have lived your life and have had no regrets. From what i concur, what difference would it make if i were a pedofile or a saint. We all die and simply decay under earth. Therefore, what is your point about regrets trying to convey?

Again this is repitition. What you believe in does not raise the issue of what is right, as what might be right to you is different to somebody else. Hence, where do you get this image of right and wrong if not lied behind morality? But this is not a matter of faith in terms of religion, but in the existence of the events occuring after death, if there are any. You're need to not entangle in such 'ridiculous' beliefs might be the damnation of you. Only after you were to find out the existence or nonexistence of this afterlife would you feel regret. How can when while u still breath regret? You are deviating from the subject matter

You assume that there is a god that 'rewards' me for my belief. The question is not how you get to this place, but if this place exists. If there is a 'god' that condemns me for my so faith, then I am secure and feel no regret. I have followed the wrong path and must be acquitted for my 'deed's in believing.


You have closed your mind by discarding my point of view. From your argument, the feeling is mutual. It is hard to comprehend your 'message'
Since you're in Sweden, religious or not, you celebrate on the 24th or 25th?
Just asking

[FascionViktem5k]

this is a random question to tednfs... about your gravity thing... i was just wondering.. exactly what proof is there that gravity exists? so far it's just an idea that seems to work... it's still a theory.. which means it hasn't been proven...(if it had been it would now be called a theorum) ... again just wondering... i'm a bit behind on the whole science thing..

[akin_t]

Gravity does exist, if you take some higher level physics classes with a good professor you'll understand the whole concept behind it, there are even theories that rely on gravity and even they have been proven.

As for heaven, I believe very much that it exists.

[FascionViktem5k]

Gravity does exist, if you take some higher level physics classes with a good professor you'll understand the whole concept behind it, there are even theories that rely on gravity and even they have been proven.

As for heaven, I believe very much that it exists.

well you see i don't think my major would give me a chance to take those higher level physics classes.. cuz i'm a psychology major... you know.. that whole requirement to fulfill before one graduates... although if i get the chance i will... but then why is gravity still called a theory if it's been proven with all these other things?

[SLVR]

On side note that has to do with gravity the poles are starting to change for those who dont know. This does have to do with gravity if ya understand phsyics

[Kyouka Suigetsu]

I believe in an after life. While I'm not sure if it adheres to any of the religions I do think it's a better place than here. At least I hope it is. There would be no purpose then. It would be better off just to pass on and then be reborn again.

[Malle]

My responses are according to your reply from my quotes. This is Mulle

That is not the point.
Does it matter whether or not you believe there is an afterlife? Will your believes change what happens when you die? If not, does it matter whether or not you believe in an afterlife when you die, as long as you feel as if you've done the right thing?It actually depends on what you believe to be the right thing. Therefore we are talking about interesting relativsm. what actually can one call moral? Your life does not change whether you are agonistic or not, as all will pass away at a certain period of time. You bring up the topic of the belief in it will change your life. I simply stated that it is harder for you to accept the complexity of life. You chose the easiet way out.You're not even adressing the point I'm raising. The original argument was If one were not to believe in Heaven and Hell..Wudn't one find it scary to just pass AWAY and thats the end? wud it not be better to pass ON..
any thoughts?The point I'm raising is:
Does your belief in afterlife change afterlife?
Is it so that those who do not believe in an afterlife has no afterlife, and those who believe in one has one?

It's only if belief changes afterlife that your belief in the subject could matter.

As for the argumentIt actually depends on what you believe to be the right thing. You must first prove there to be absolute moral standards, since if there are no absolute moral standards, then it cannot depend on what you believe to be moral.

And lastly: Your life does not change whether you are agonistic or not, as all will pass away at a certain period of time.I do say I must disagree. Saying my life does not change whether I am agnostic or not (that means even if I were a fundamental Chrsitian) is saying my actions, opinions and believes does not matter to my life. If I were a fundie, my life would by high probability be a lot different, and thus we can see that religious conviction changes ones life, QED.



The thing is that I don't feel a need for believing that I will live eternally in a paradise after dieing to feel that I can die without regrets.You have lived your life and have had no regrets. From what i concur, what difference would it make if i were a pedofile or a saint. We all die and simply decay under earth. Therefore, what is your point about regrets trying to convey?It's a follow up on the part you quoted before this.

Unless you give enough supporting evidence that belief in an afterlife changes your afterlife, then we have no reason to believe that it does, and as such the only thing that would matter when an individual dies is up to that individual (which usually leads to a feeling of happiness or content if it is fulfilled). You could also refute it by proving absolute moral standards, as I said earlier in the reply.



"At least you tried believing" seems to imply that I tried to do what's right, namely believing. As I don't believe there is an afterlife, not only would I lose time in what I believe is my only life, but I would also be a hypocrite, which I would regret, and thus not be at ease.Again this is repitition. What you believe in does not raise the issue of what is right, as what might be right to you is different to somebody else. Hence, where do you get this image of right and wrong if not lied behind morality? But this is not a matter of faith in terms of religion, but in the existence of the events occuring after death, if there are any. You're need to not entangle in such 'ridiculous' beliefs might be the damnation of you. Only after you were to find out the existence or nonexistence of this afterlife would you feel regret. How can when while u still breath regret? You are deviating from the subject matter
First of all, you here agree there are no absolute moral standars, yet you implied it in the quoted part: IF there is no heaven atleast u tried believing You imply that the absolute moral standard is that believing is good. Which should be mentioned is like saying "If there is no difference between races, at least you believed all other races to be less worthy, under developed, inhuman hellspawns".

As forOnly after you were to find out the existence or nonexistence of this afterlife would you feel regret. How can when while u still breath regret? You are deviating from the subject matterI once again must disagree. You imply that you cannot feel regret while living, which, as far as my senses tell me, I can. You also skipped my point that I mentioned earlier that I'd rather be condemned in a possible afterlife rather than believing in something I see no proof for, and thus be a hypocrite, which I would regret.

On top of that, your point assumes that either a god that rewards your type of faith exists, or no god at all exist. What if there exists a god that condemn faith in your belief?You assume that there is a god that 'rewards' me for my belief. The question is not how you get to this place, but if this place exists. If there is a 'god' that condemns me for my so faith, then I am secure and feel no regret. I have followed the wrong path and must be acquitted for my 'deed's in believing.Which is exactly what you refuted in the previous quote.


You have closed your mind by discarding my point of view. From your argument, the feeling is mutual. It is hard to comprehend your 'message'.I have not discarded your arguments just because, I have discarded your arguments because there are none. You have repeatedly contradicted yourself, as well as refuting things I did not say nor imply, if you look at the context.

Since you're in Sweden, religious or not, you celebrate on the 24th or 25th?
Just askingThe usual day of celebrating Christmas in Sweden is the 24th.

[akin_t]

Damn, there's no way I'm reading all that. Anyway Malle, I do believe in heaven; if you do not, then that's your cup of tea really, it's hard to even debate about religious things when people don't share the same belief

[FascionViktem5k]

well this thread is just a whether you believe in heaven or not... some ppl do and some ppl don't... eh.. watever... i beleive that there could be something.. or we could all just keep getting reborn... who knows... there's no proof that either one is false or true... so... i'll just think what i wanna think... but that's just me..

[Daeruke]

well, that was random

[captain_soifon]

i believe!!

[HallowDude]

not sure... to me ill see when i get there :biggthump

[Ravenfdasfd]

I could try and explain to you what I believe or...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

I could link a website that does it better.You pick.

[Daeruke]

explain it plss.would like ur gf's opinion 2

[tednfs]

To malle
I simply asked you whether you celebrated it on the 24th or 25th, not the official dates given in Sweden, making it seem like you have no choice and just repeating what they ask you to say.

The biggest mistake is to bring up Fundamentalists. That is the trist approach by non-believers. You people really have no idea how to argue. I say this because in your non belief you have faith to not believe.

If you fully comprehended what I said and not madly shot back, you would have infered from my comment that absolute morality does not EXIST.

I do say I must disagree. Saying my life does not change whether I am agnostic or not (that means even if I were a fundamental Chrsitian) is saying my actions, opinions and believes does not matter to my life. If I were a fundie, my life would by high probability be a lot different, and thus we can see that religious conviction changes ones life, QED.

I should have said the afterlife. Again you fail to understand and blantly choose to misintepret. The belief in Afterlife does not affect the afterlife itself.

It's a follow up on the part you quoted before this.

Unless you give enough supporting evidence that belief in an afterlife changes your afterlife, then we have no reason to believe that it does, and as such the only thing that would matter when an individual dies is up to that individual (which usually leads to a feeling of happiness or content if it is fulfilled). You could also refute it by proving absolute moral standards, as I said earlier in the reply.

Why is there repition here? I have argued above but yet I see the same argument. And NO, the events after death are not controlled by the individual. Such as some portions of the brain are involuntary, the actions after death can not be controlled. That is, the existence of an Afterlife. And even if there were not, you just 'leaving' is not controlled by you

I once again must disagree. You imply that you cannot feel regret while living, which, as far as my senses tell me, I can. You also skipped my point that I mentioned earlier that I'd rather be condemned in a possible afterlife rather than believing in something I see no proof for, and thus be a hypocrite, which I would regret.
Your belief in science blindly shields you from the real world. The science you beleive in is not proven. Therefore, you are a hypocrite. Also, the rules that are applicable to earth and the milky way are not necessarily applied in other galaxies.

I have not discarded your arguments just because, I have discarded your arguments because there are none. You have repeatedly contradicted yourself, as well as refuting things I did not say nor imply, if you look at the context.

You have not dicarded my arguments just because (you felt like, or cudnt bother, finish your sentences), but there are no arguments. I have dissproved all of your arguments. I have also found you a hypocrite. No offense, but learn the basics before you try to expostulate me. I feel when reading your work like it's deja vu.

Raven, c'mon don't be a spoiled sport. Explain it for us. It's dreadfully long although I read much longer stuff. :)

[Malle]

To malle
I simply asked you whether you celebrated it on the 24th or 25th, not the official dates given in Sweden, making it seem like you have no choice and just repeating what they ask you to say.And I answered like I did because I cannot honestly say whether or not what I do at Christmas should be called celebrating, as that gives me the impression of some festivities or partys. But yes, I spend time with my family and give them gifts on the 24th.

The biggest mistake is to bring up Fundamentalists. That is the trist approach by non-believers. You people really have no idea how to argue. I say this because in your non belief you have faith to not believe.Why is that a mistake? You implied that being agnostic or of any other religious conviction (that includes fundamentalists) did not matter for how you live your life. There's an obvious difference between agnostics and fundamentalist lifestyles, and as such your argument is refuted. If you did not wish to include fundamentalists in your statement, then you shouldn't use a value which includes them. If I have misinterpreted you, please clarify what you meant.

As for whether or not agnosticism requires faith, that is for another topic.




If you fully comprehended what I said and not madly shot back, you would have infered from my comment that absolute morality does not EXIST. I asked if it was enough for one to believe that one had done the right thing in life when one died, and you said:It actually depends on what you believe to be the right thing.Thus you must mean that some things one believe is right to do are right to do, and others are not, and thus we have a moral absolute. I'd love if you could clarify what you mean. That is, unless you really are contradicting yourself.




I should have said the afterlife. Again you fail to understand and blantly choose to misintepret. The belief in Afterlife does not affect the afterlife itself.Thank you for at last answering my question. Anyway, so you wish to changeYour life does not change whether you are agonistic or not, as all will pass away at a certain period of time.toYour afterlife does not change whether you are agonistic or not, as all will pass away at a certain period of time.Do you then mean that even afterlife will end after a certain period of time? If so, why do you believe that? If not, what do you mean with the last part of the sentence?




Why is there repition here? I have argued above but yet I see the same argument. And NO, the events after death are not controlled by the individual. Such as some portions of the brain are involuntary, the actions after death can not be controlled. That is, the existence of an Afterlife. And even if there were not, you just 'leaving' is not controlled by youThere's repetition because you did not answer my question I originally posed.

And how can you be so sure that afterlife cannot be controlled? How can you be so sure that leaving (whatever leaving you are referring to) isn't controlled by the person?




Your belief in science blindly shields you from the real world. The science you beleive in is not proven. Therefore, you are a hypocrite. Also, the rules that are applicable to earth and the milky way are not necessarily applied in other galaxies.Yes, I'm sorry I actually stay down on earth, use glasses which can make me see as well as someone with good vision. I'm sorry that I use a computer to write this message over a wireless network while listening to music on my iPod. I'm sorry that I watch TV and use medicin. Because after all, there's no reason to believe anything of that really works, is it?

I'm sorry (this time, truthfully) that I used the layman term prove instead of the proper scientific ones.

Of course science isn't proven, it never is, in scientific terms. However, it is an accurate enough description of the part of the universe we live in to create technology we couldn't dream of before we had these descriptions. That's more than any other religion I ever heard of.


You have not dicarded my arguments just because (you felt like, or cudnt bother, finish your sentences), but there are no arguments. I have dissproved all of your arguments. I have also found you a hypocrite. No offense, but learn the basics before you try to expostulate me. I feel when reading your work like it's deja vu.Again, "just because" is just what it means, you just do something without a reason (thus nothing after the because). As for the rest of the statement, well... let's just say we are on different opinions of that right now.




With all that to the side, let's take it from the beginning.

My reasoning was as following:
Under the premises
1: If there is an afterlife, what one believes in will not change the concept of the afterlife.
2: We have no tangible evidence for what happens after death.

Then logically must follow that belief in afterlife does not matter, as whether or not you believe in it you would still experience it, if it existed. And as we cannot know what afterlife there is, and on what basis you may be treated well or badly, we cannot know what you should do to be treated well.

If one cannot know what one should do in life, one simply has to do what one think is right. If there exists a deity, and you have lived life to it's fullest, have no regrets, believe you have done everything as good as you can, and you come up to said deity and that deity says "No, everything you ever done was shit. That is not what I wanted you to do. Now you face eternal damnation.", would you face the damnation (of course you may resist) or would you beg for forgiveness and abandon your moral standpoint?

[DaveManDave]

im not a religious person but i believe in souls and that when we die we just continue to live but in a different form (spirit,orb.etc.) on earth

[tednfs]

Malle according to your premises we are arguing about the same thing. The same can be said about the first part of your conclusion. If i were to abandon my moral standpoint I would be guilty of apostasy. That would imply that all who have similar faiths would be condemned.

The science argument is based on an error of reasoning entitled induction. You have no more reason to believe the sun would rise than a bunch of tulips in the morning. Also, the laws of science claim that it applies to all MATTER.

Do you honestly believe that your departure from this earth is controlled by the individual? Then, half of the population would return, supposing they had good lives. There are many things that presently cannot be controlled. I wish not bring them up as I could write volumes.

My belief in what is right would vary from yours. That is where Interesting Relativism comes into mind. As you have said, the deity could not favor my morals, so as to condemn me.
Your afterlife does not change whether you are agonistic or not, as all will pass away at a certain period of time.
The statement simply proclaims that we all shall die. And your belief in it does not affect the reality of the afterlife. We have agreed on this point.
Why is that a mistake? You implied that being agnostic or of any other religious conviction (that includes fundamentalists) did not matter for how you live your life. There's an obvious difference between agnostics and fundamentalist lifestyles, and as such your argument is refuted. If you did not wish to include fundamentalists in your statement, then you shouldn't use a value which includes them. If I have misinterpreted you, please clarify what you meant.
I contrayed the message that non believers usually pick on fundamentalists. The same could be said as adherent non-believers. One should bring up normal people and rather not extremists. You brought in lifestyles, but we are talking about the existence of afterlife. You saw the change in my quotes, then why did you bring up lifestyles? So fundamentalist vs extremist atheist. But again, some atheists believe in afterlives.

The inference from our intellectual discussion is that neither of us can convince the other. Your ending assured me that my viewpoints are not discarded. Yours aren't as well. This argument is pointless. But again, it is fun to see other's viewpoints.

[Malle]

Just a few things;

There's much less reason to believe that the sun wouldn't rise (or more precisely, either that the sun would cease to exist or that the Earth's rotation would stop) than that it would rise, presuming that our senses perception of the universe won't change under night.

One usually picks on extremists because the contrast between them and whatever other grade of conviction you are talking about is much greater than between any other groups. I didn't say (strong) atheists, because the difference between an agnostic lifestyle and a strong atheist lifestyle is not at all as large as between an agnostic lifestyle and a fundamentalist lifestyle.

Lifestyles was introduced with:
Does it matter whether or not you believe there is an afterlife? Will your believes change what happens when you die? If not, does it matter whether or not you believe in an afterlife when you die, as long as you feel as if you've done the right thing?It actually depends on what you believe to be the right thing. Therefore we are talking about interesting relativsm. what actually can one call moral? Your life does not change whether you are agonistic or not, as all will pass away at a certain period of time. You bring up the topic of the belief in it will change your life. I simply stated that it is harder for you to accept the complexity of life. You chose the easiet way out.I do say I must disagree. Saying my life does not change whether I am agnostic or not (that means even if I were a fundamental Chrsitian) is saying my actions, opinions and believes does not matter to my life. If I were a fundie, my life would by high probability be a lot different, and thus we can see that religious conviction changes ones life, QED.But as you said later, you meant afterlife, so it doesn't really matter anymore.

[bbyxgurl]

i think heaven is real

[db]

Similar thread exists.
http://forums.bleachportal.net/showthread.php?t=1691