Abortion! [Archive] - Club Bleach

Ballistics

01-04-2005, 02:56 AM

pro-life, if you even look at things closely, the law isnt really making sense. They say that at a certain point it's only tissue and not a baby. but when murder's are committed to pregnant women they say it's a double homicide... something's not adding up.

Ah, you see that is double homicide. You see was it the women's choice to get killed? no it wasn't [at least in most causes]. With this its about the choice. I think its up to a women to have the baby or not...but it has to be early if its already the 6th month I think thats a little to late and should think about making the kid a orphen. but, to avoid such things people should use commen sence...you see if they can't handle a kid...they shouldn't waste our tax money just cause thay wanna get laid with no protectsion...and plus, if they can't be good perents think of all the unlawfull things such wasted life could do...I just think at one point its up to them...but after that limit...they just messed up bad and most of us gotta pay of people like this...

Well there you have it amigos, a mass of people are stupid but powerfull. Ballistics out...[B]

ramenkage

01-04-2005, 06:31 AM

since were on the topic of no protection,
you think third world countries should adopt china one child policy?

Ronin

01-05-2005, 04:19 AM

I am pro-abortion in the case of rape, but anything else, I reckon adoption is better.

Cirith Kyoko

01-06-2005, 01:27 AM

only in case of dangerous situations (eg, both mother and child will almost surely die)
other cases NOOOOO
there are condoms, there is the pill
and for gods sake use your mind when your having sex
is it REALY that hard ?...

(okay cept raping maybe, but then you still got morning after pills)

omen

01-07-2005, 01:16 AM

^ chea I agree!

How about pro thinking when you pushing that stick or ya legs are up in the air..

but for sure, it should be up to the mother to be....

-rogue-

01-07-2005, 03:16 AM

I can kind of see what you're saying but...

Ah, you see that is double homicide. You see was it the women's choice to get killed? no it wasn't [at least in most causes]. With this its about the choice. I think its up to a women to have the baby or not...but it has to be early if its already the 6th month I think thats a little to late and should think about making the kid a orphen.

Well going with a parallel statement, I'd say, is it the babies choice to be killed? You see if you agree that it is a double homicide then why is it not just a murder for the abortion?

but, to avoid such things people should use commen sence...you see if they can't handle a kid...they shouldn't waste our tax money just cause thay wanna get laid with no protectsion...and plus, if they can't be good perents think of all the unlawfull things such wasted life could do...I just think at one point its up to them...but after that limit...they just messed up bad and most of us gotta pay of people like this...

You also have to keep in mind it's not just unwed teen mothers who are having abortions. Just as well it is upper class married women. So being a good parent has nothing to do with having an unexpected child. Also - Some people mature when they are forced into a situation like motherhood; so I think it's not fair to say it's wasted life. A baby can completely turn-around someone view on life completely and so some will change to protect and try to give their child the best life as possible. Others should really just put their child up for adoption. I really dont think we should abort a child just because we fear of being irresponsible.

Ballistics

01-07-2005, 08:17 AM

Well its sad to say, that the baby has no voice in the matter and is viewed simply as a part of the mother. So the mother is just getting rid of a part she doesn't want.[even if its another living human] So even if it is murder, hell even first degree murder...thats the law for you.

I never said that it was only unwed teens and not upper class married women. I said if they can't be good parents. Regardless of the money they have, if they can't set a good example then the kids will learn from what they can from the street or other places...sure some mature, and that is very rare...even with motherhood some women just can't be good mothers and its bad for those kids that have bad parents to grow up with a wasted life with bad people around them since they where little.

But we both agree that if this could be avoided it should. People can use protection and just wise up a little can't they? every child could become a killer, a rapist, a corrupted person but they can also be a leader, a prist, or a hero...but everyone is a son or a daughter...just think if someone killed your best friend, your mother or father, your lover...isn't that wrong? hell why can't people have a heart and think about what they do?

Well there you have it amigos, have a heart...and use your head. Ballistics out...[B]

Shinigami Atma

01-07-2005, 08:33 AM

When you have lived in my nieghboorhood, you become pro-choice. Extremely pro-choice. I'm an 18 year old female, and I see girls literally 6 years younger than me having babies and getting sick because they were too young. By the time they're 18, their kid will be 6 and their life will be ruined. There's a lot of child molestation cases where I come from, and that's why I stay inside. (My mom's always telling me to go out. Hell no.)

So, when you see poeple get molested or raped or have a kid way too young, you feelf or their life. Both the baby and the mom are ruined forever. They can't turn back time and get un-raped or un-molested.

Personally, ic ould never have kids. too troublesome and annoying. Plus, I have a very small frame and light bod weight. I'd be crushed and be killed if I had a kid. So if I got pregnant I'd sure as heck want an abortion. And it's my body, dang it.

Anyways, if you ARE going to have sex, use condoms and such. Be safe. But even that isn't certain. What if the condom snaps or the pill doesn't get workin'? You were preventing a baby but still got one. I say you should be allowed to choose.

Besides, how many of you here are actually women and can actually get pregnant? It changes when you're a female because then you actually have to worry about it.

mgviperman

01-07-2005, 08:40 AM

Although I hate to see something die like that, i'm pro-choice. I believe women have the right to make their own decision about what to do in this situation.

park

01-07-2005, 05:30 PM

i am a pro lifer, i dont believe a woman has the right to choise weather here child dies or not. ramen already made the point that when a woam is killed while pregnent its double homacide but when its her choice the kid becomes a mass of tissue. if its the womans fault aka she is a wore slut or just fast in bed than she has no right to kill another human, if its not her fault aka rape incest or her life is in danger than abortion is a valid option after all other options have been explored like surgery and adoption.

Sake-Sama

01-22-2005, 11:15 PM

Other than the mutual production of a child between a man and a woman consetually, I believe a woman has a right to do whatever she wants with her body. Just as much as Man. The choice of when and how she wants to have a child belongs to her.

I'm pro-choice. And for the record, girls can get girls pregnate! ;)

Kibou

01-24-2005, 01:17 AM

Okay so here's my schpeel:

The choice should be there and the gov't shouldn't have a say in what you can and cannot do. The decision of whether to or not to is left to the woman, but the option must still exist otherwise the gov't is taking away a constitutional right. So there should be more sex ed programs in the school that teach abstinence and the impt of contraceptives and then just leave abstinence to family plannings 'n whatnot.

ramenkage

01-24-2005, 01:20 AM

but the option must still exist otherwise the gov't is taking away a constitutional right
i believe that right does not exist in our constitution, however the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness does exist in the declaration. through abortion, the woman (i know that does sounds sexist, but i dont know the exact word for a woman who wants an abortion) violates the childs natural rights

Kibou

01-24-2005, 01:29 AM

i believe that right does not exist in our constitution, however the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness does exist in the declaration. through abortion, the woman (i know that does sounds sexist, but i dont know the exact word for a woman who wants an abortion) violates the childs natural rights

Addressing the bold-->Your arguement is based on your own opinion, not everyone has the same opinion as you [otherwise we'd be pretty f'd...lol JK]. So you can't qualify what IS and what ISN'T life up to a certain point when the fetus or embryo is in the womb--right now I think the gov't has it up to 20 weeks, then afterwards you can only get one under extreme circumstances.

The right is there. The right for a person to have their own private personal life (bill of rights, 9th am i think). And the constitution does say ppl have the right to the pursuit of happiness, if abortion makes a woman happy, then so be it.

All I'm saying is, the decision is always left to the woman. No one should force their own beliefs through law.

ramenkage

01-24-2005, 01:39 AM

Addressing the italics-->Your arguement is based on your own opinion, not everyone has the same opinion as you [otherwise we'd be pretty f'd...lol JK]. So you can't qualify what IS and what ISN'T life up to a certain point when the fetus or embryo is in the womb--right now I think the gov't has it up to 20 weeks, then afterwards you can only get one under extreme circumstances.
i dont see any of my own opinions in there...
fact - constitution does not guarantee the right to abortion, the bil of rights is not part of the constitution. The constitution is essentially the guideline to the power of the branches of the government. As for the 9th amendment, it does not specifically say that right in which you refer to. in fact it doesnt specifically say anything except people have rights not listed

fact - if killing makes me happy, is it legal for me to kill?

opinion -
the law is made to protect the people, the people means everyone, including unborn children

Kibou

01-24-2005, 01:56 AM

The constitution is pretty vague, gov't still has no right to nose into someone's personal matter unless it involves treachery. Bill of rights IS apart of the constitution, that's the thing anti-federalists demanded if the founding fathers were gonna rewrite the constitution, so...yes it is.

You said you like history, let's take a look at 1973 Roe v. Wade...Supreme Court LEGALIZED IT, interpretting the constitution in that fashion.

fact - if killing makes me happy, is it legal for me to kill?
That fact is a fallacy, and it's still based off of opinion, therefore it's not fact.

The opinion--> an embryo or fetus is life at all stages of development; to you it is, to others it isn't. That's why we shouldn't limit someone else's beliefs.

What you are saying is still opinion, not fact. It's a matter of perception when it comes to the embryo or fetus inside the womb if it is a life or not.

ramenkage

01-24-2005, 02:11 AM

Bill of rights IS apart of the constitution, that's the thing anti-federalists demanded if the founding fathers were gonna rewrite the constitution, so...yes it is.nope bill of rites and amendments are not part of the consitution

fact - if killing makes me happy, is it legal for me to kill?
That fact is a fallacy, and it's still based off of opinion, therefore it's not fact
my bad

You said you like history, let's take a look at 1973 Roe v. Wade...Supreme Court LEGALIZED IT, interpretting the constitution in that fashion.i didnt say it was illegal, i said the constitution does not protect it. and supreme court cases =/ theyve been upturned many times

the fact that i am referring to is that the constitution doesnt a protect the right to abortion. which is wat you were referring to

Kibou

01-24-2005, 02:23 AM

You can ask any gov't teacher or social studies teacher about the bill of rights, those are your rights and protection against the gov't...it's guaranteed and APART of it.

The point of me bringing up it was legalized is that the constitution is currently interpretted as protecting abortion. It obviously doesn't say it right out in words, but the meaning and implications is still there for it. Otherwise Roe v. Wade wouldn't have been an issue.

ramenkage

01-24-2005, 02:27 AM

i did ask, actually my ap teach told betted me. are there in rights in the constitution? my answer was yes, because of the bill of rights. but apparently that the bill of rights and the amendments arent part of the constitution.

there are alot of implications in the amendments, the biggest question tho is when does life start

Kibou

01-24-2005, 02:35 AM

THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG YOU DORK! Sheesh.

Anyways there are some natural rights in the constitution...I guarantee you that...

ramenkage

01-24-2005, 03:06 AM

whether or not a fetus is living is not a belief, there is a definite point we just havent found it yet, and that should be imposed by the law

and there are no natural rights protecting your body....i think its just assumed that government cant take your limbs

Eric

01-24-2005, 03:34 AM

I saw let the baby live. If you don't want it then we should gather the babies and train them to filful a certain job. President, Universal Soilders. I don't know something like that. Or some kind of job that no one wants. Like being a teacher. Hahaha

Schoulayer

02-13-2005, 11:00 PM

Imagine some scum of the earth rapes a woman, she should not be forced to have his baby. She should be able to choose to not pass on his genes. That being said, after about a month the baby begins to show brain activity. By this period it should be illegal.

Within the period of a month she should have had ample time to get an abortion if thats what she desires. There really is no reason somebody should wait until the baby becomes questionably conscious (brain activity) before aborting it.

I guess I'm middle ground, I'm not against all abortion, just later term abortion.

Also obviously if having the baby is a health risk to the mother. Say the baby is malformed and it causing internal bleeding to the mother. The chances of her having the baby successfully is slim, and her life is in jeopardy. I don't think anybody would fault her for preserving herself.

Pipp-ORK

02-24-2005, 12:59 AM

I don't agree with abortions. (unless some young woman is raped.) Other than rape, it was of her own actions that she got pregnant, and the baby should have a chance to live.

Schoulayer

02-28-2005, 01:24 AM

I don't agree with abortions. (unless some young woman is raped.) Other than rape, it was of her own actions that she got pregnant, and the baby should have a chance to live.

In a perfect world I'd agree with you - however if your trying to translate "No-Abortion-Unless-Your-Raped" into law you run into problems. There are two options, the first makes the woman prove she was raped. The problem arrives when she can't identify the person who raped her, or if theres not enough evidence to convict. In that scenario shes forced to have a baby for her rapist because she can't prove she was raped. That option is obviously VERY WRONG and can't be used.

The second option relies on her word. If she says she was raped, she was raped. But then....... everybody could just say they were raped couldn't they? That breaks down because its an honor system, and those simply don't work.

After about one month the baby beings to show brain waves - thats the point where it should be illegal. There is no other way to legislate it.

The exception is when the mothers body is at risk, in which case doctors should be able to do whatever they need to to save her life if she so chooses.

Jedimuse

02-28-2005, 02:00 AM

the subject of abortion is a bit sensitive to me cuz of my best friends abortion. it was very tragic. What happen was that she and her boyfriend after a while of being sexually active decided to get birth control injections. She didn;t know she was pregant. So the injections cause the baby to not fully develop, it was going to die at birth anyways, so she decide to have and abortion. the doctor who performed the abortion was a fake, so she still had the baby after the "abortion". When the baby was born it barely weighed 3lbs, he had to be immediately incubated. It died in less than a month.

i used to be against abortions, but after this i don't know exactly where i stand on the subject. whether it's right or wrong became a big blur to me.

GaoGirl

03-02-2005, 10:28 AM

Chase-Kun

03-02-2005, 04:37 PM

its not like you whant to go trugh an abortion but if your to yung to have a child you sould do it, or it will suffer even more.

just doing the abort meens feeling crap for 24. and i meen feeling death sick. trowing up, headakes, feaver and being realy weak.

EDIT: what i meant was that you need to be able to suport your selves AND the baby

I agree.. though i dont belive in abortions,.. i feel you should be ready to support a kid when you have one,.. if you cant support it thats cruel to have one... :sad:

kivol

03-03-2005, 04:09 AM

i don't think it should be used for birth control. if you are young then that is a different story. if it is rape that is another different story. but my mom told me that one of her old friends got pregant 3 times and had 3 abortions, just cause he felt like it. i think that is wrong.

oh and i think those who voted for our dumb president and vicepresident, for the reasons of abortion and gay married and stuff like that were dumb because as you can see they are not pushing for that. or not as hard as they are for the war.

oh here is another thought a little of topic. but if you are for pro-life and you are for the war. you a hypercit(i can't spell sorry) if you are against killing on one issue you should be against kill on all issues.

ramenkage

03-03-2005, 06:05 AM

oh here is another thought a little of topic. but if you are for pro-life and you are for the war. you a hypercit(i can't spell sorry) if you are against killing on one issue you should be against kill on all issues.
its not hypocritical... one is by choice the other is not.
be specific on the war. which war do you refer to?
secondly, war can save lives as well as take them

kivol

03-04-2005, 08:54 PM

well lets us today. 1500 i think it is for us americans. its huge for the iracis. and there are like 1 to 3 bombings a day. and there are always deaths. and we say we are helping these people. i like to believe is that the bush admin are really jus tell us that and that the terroist threat that does up and down is just a dumb act they are playing to keep us on there side.

Schoulayer

03-04-2005, 11:29 PM

oh and i think those who voted for our dumb president and vicepresident, for the reasons of abortion and gay married and stuff like that were dumb because as you can see they are not pushing for that. or not as hard as they are for the war.

Its that arrogant attitude that brought republicans out in force this past election.

Many people were sickened by the democratic party effectively bending over for the UN. The UN should have little to no sway on our international actions. Our president was mostly elected on homeland issues. Abortion, gun control, tax cuts, and believe it or not, foreign policy.

oh here is another thought a little of topic. but if you are for pro-life and you are for the war. you a hypercit(i can't spell sorry) if you are against killing on one issue you should be against kill on all issues.

Your argument makes no sense. I'm against LATE-TERM abortion with a few exceptions, such as when the baby becomes a danger to the mother or if the baby is dying anyway. I suppose that makes me pro-life to some degree.

Your saying because somebody has a pro-life stance they can't take life? Read my post on MURDER in this section please. Theres a huge difference between an INNOCENT baby showing brain waves, and a GUILTY person. If somebody kills a member of my family, they're going to die by my hand if the law fails. That doesn't mean I'm going to shoot random innocent people. Its not even close to the same thing.

War in many cases is justified. We're liberating Iraq from a family of corrupt serial killers in power. In the end Iraq will be much better off. Do you even know how many tens of thousands of people Saddam killed in horrible ways because he felt like testing biological weapons? Saddam is notorious for killing babies in front of mothers and torturing people while eating popcorn (according to people who knew saddam who fled from Iraq).

You could use the same arguments to say we were unjustified in going into war with Hitler or Molosovich.

kivol

03-05-2005, 02:09 AM

abortion was a huge part of this election, and i know the so called "fight against terrist" was bigger. but you can't leave out abortion or the other ones.

i am for abortion only when like i said before; the moms who are not really a moms (like people under 18), people who are raped should have the opinion. and dangering the mothers life. yes i did forget a couple. there are probably others but no time to type.

i never said saddam was a good person he killed many. it was a good thing we got ride of him, but because we did get rid of him all the gangs have come back to try to take over. he pretty much stopped them a lot. and also this so called "war" should have not actually included iraq they had no connection to afganistan(how ever you spell it) and yet be have like 1000s more troops in iraq and not where it started like afganistan.

ramenkage

03-05-2005, 03:27 AM

as for abortion, i think rape and threat to the mother are accepted by pro-lifers as valid reasons. the agrument is more for people who just dont want babies, who were irresponsible with their sex lives.
too many be people look at short term results
like schou said, in the end iraq qill become a better nation
it will industrialize, prosper, and be stable
how long would the iraqis have to suffer until that if the us didnt act?
take this to another thread if you like
im reluctant to make a bush and war thread because those are the touchiest topics

kivol

03-05-2005, 06:44 PM

lets hope that iraq becomes a better place some day. but back to the real topic hehe. if they pass a law against abortion it should only apply for those who aren't using it for birth control.

wait what do you ppl think about kids under the age of 16 having a choice. i think they should cause it screws the baby over, and the mother. the baby because then the baby when it gets to the right change has a better chance of having a kid like its mother at a young age. the mother gets screwed cause she has to work until that baby is 18 and then well when the mother when she gets to that age all of her dream have been shattered. also, lots of times when this happens the fathers sometimes jumps out on them and doesn't help. but if he does he also gets screwed because he wont be able to do anything or full his dream.

ramenkage

03-05-2005, 09:38 PM

wait what do you ppl think about kids under the age of 16 having a choice. i think they should cause it screws the baby over, and the mother. the baby because then the baby when it gets to the right change has a better chance of having a kid like its mother at a young age. the mother gets screwed cause she has to work until that baby is 18 and then well when the mother when she gets to that age all of her dream have been shattered. also, lots of times when this happens the fathers sometimes jumps out on them and doesn't help. but if he does he also gets screwed because he wont be able to do anything or full his dream.
they shouldve thought of that before having sex shouldnt they?
because of their inability to control their desire, does that give them the right to take the life of another?

eze67

03-07-2005, 10:29 PM

i believe that the only time abortion should be allowed is when the mother could die giving birth, i think that every person should have a chance to live. adoption is always a choice and there are many who can't have kids.
one of my best friends was a child born from rape.
i also believe that there are accidental parents, but no accidental children.
killing an inoccent child is one of the evilest thing a person can do.(my opinion)
and i'd go as far to say that abortion should warrant manslaughter.(agian my opinion)

kivol

03-09-2005, 09:03 PM

manslaughter. uah no.

also are we talking whenever abortion or like 6 months into abortion. i'm just wondering because like if its even 5 months no you should not be aloud. its important to under stand that some people should not be aloud to have kids. because they did drug/ and w/e else would screw the baby from actually having a life.
only cases rape, underage, hurting/ or chance of death from mother.

ramenkage

03-10-2005, 01:14 AM

only cases rape, underage, hurting/ or chance of death from mother.
unfortunately those cases are few
i dont really care for the baby's life, people die all the time, it cant be helped and with over population less babies is even better, but im still against abortion
and that is mainly because people need to take responsibilty for their actions.
use condoms, pills, w/e dont make others (the baby) suffer for your pleasure

kivol

03-10-2005, 03:48 AM

well i think we need some proof that they are few. and umm is bush even pushing for congress to stop abortion.

ramenkage

03-11-2005, 05:12 AM

well i think we need some proof that they are few. and umm is bush even pushing for congress to stop abortion
i think hes stopping abortion for those who dont need it ie non rape victims and mothers whoar e not endagered by the baby
http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm
3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.
i think thats a few
explain why the majority of abortion are among women under 25
and why 47% of women who is getting abortion had already had at least one abortion before?
irresponsibility perphaps?

maximoose666

12-04-2005, 12:40 AM

I thought I'd bump this thread up to the top, because it's an interesting debate.
In my opinion, abortion is no better than murder. I would say that when the mother's life is in danger, it is acceptable (rather in the way that it might be acceptable to kill an adult who was out to murder you), but otherwise not. People who argue in favour of abortion say that it is a woman's right to choose whether or not to have her baby. But perhaps they are forgetting that the life of a completely innocent baby is at stake. Babies can now be born and survive after only 20 months of pregnancy, yet the law in many countries permits abortion up to 24 months. Therefore, there is a problem of when to draw the line - the question of at what stage the foetus becomes human, and benefits from the human right to life. If you allow foetuses which would have survived to be killed, then you may as well allow infanticide. Finally, rape is no excuse for an abortion. The baby can be adopted - there are plenty of childless couples who want one. I mean no disrespect to rape victims and I agree that they suffer terribly, but why add the murder of an unborn child to the wrong that has already occured in their lives? People who support abortion need to think further about the defensless individuals they seek to destroy.

Zer0 Kenpachi

12-04-2005, 12:43 AM

Eh, Im not for abortion,but I do think that the mother has a right to choose. Like if a woman gets raped. Also,sometimes the baby would be brought into a bad home where it might eventually be killed. I dont think anyone has a right to tell a mother what she should do with an unborn baby shes carrying, but if she wants to have an abortion,she should have it.Still,I dont like the idea of ending an innocent life that hasent even had its first breath of air. Its not my decision to make though.

-Zer0

Zangetsu Tensa

12-04-2005, 01:00 AM

My stance is simple:

If you don't have a vagina, you should stay out of this.

That rules me out of course, so I'll take my leave now.

Shaehl

12-04-2005, 06:37 PM

My stance is simple:

If you don't have a vagina, you should stay out of this.

That rules me out of course, so I'll take my leave now.

That stance is absurd. You know what they say, it takes two to tango. The woman may carry the baby, but it is just as much the father's child as it is hers. In my opinion, abortion should be legal, but the father and, if the mother is under 18, the mother's parents should have a say in the matter. That whole argument that says, "It's the woman's body, she can do with it what she wants." Is so faulty I don't know how people can even consider it. First off, if women can do whatever they want to themselves, why are suicide, drug abuse and prostitution still illegal? Secondly, even if they could do whatever they wanted with their bodies, what about the babies? What gives women the right to kill their babies? How can we even think that it's okay if a woman wants to go and vacuum out her baby because it would be, "inconvenient", or a burden? The skank should have thought about that before she went around sleeping with people.

It's just like those feminazi's saying that "only women are truly qualified to define sexual harassment." BS. I know sexual harassment when I see it. They just use that as an excuse to attain more power. You can't even look at a woman wrong without being charged for "sexual harassment." But hey, since men are incapable of truly defining sexual harassment, I guess I'll just have to pass by the next women I see trying to fight off a man; I'm not qualified to determine what sexual harassment is right?

Zangetsu Tensa

12-04-2005, 06:49 PM

That stance is absurd.
So is your face. *ZING!* :LOL:

But seriously, I'm never going to have to worry about getting an abortion, so I'm not going to bother reading that short novel you busted out. If other guys want to agonize over pregnancy or the ending thereof, they can feel free to.

I simply don't feel strongly either way because I don't see myself getting a sex change anytime soon.

Shaehl

12-04-2005, 07:04 PM

So is your face. *ZING!* :LOL:

But seriously, I'm never going to have to worry about getting an abortion, so I'm not going to bother reading that short novel you busted out. If other guys want to agonize over pregnancy or the ending thereof, they can feel free to.

I simply don't feel strongly either way because I don't see myself getting a sex change anytime soon.

The way I see it, if I ever get a woman pregnant, I don't want her going psycho on me, deciding that she doesn't want a child anymore and then decides to abort my baby while I can do nothing about it. Of course, that situation would never happen, because I'd never grace a ***** like that with the glory of my body. Still, it's the principle of the thing.

Zangetsu Tensa

12-04-2005, 07:22 PM

Of course, that situation would never happen, because I'd never grace a ***** like that with the glory of my body.
I demand pics.

Raku

12-04-2005, 07:26 PM

Well if people don't use protection when they dont want a chilld they kinda ask for it.. but well it's up to the person

Stuff happens.. right? ^^

Purokku-kun

12-04-2005, 07:38 PM

I'm pro-choice, but it shouldn't be used used lightly. Certainly, in the cases of rape or where there is a significant risk in carrying the baby to full term, to either mother or child.

I don't think it should be something which should be taken lightly, and I agree with Ramen's post that greater awareness of preventative measures can do a lot to reduce the number of potential abortions.

Besides, the only surefire 100% effective form of contraception is not to have sex at all. ;)

Zangetsu Tensa

12-04-2005, 07:40 PM

Besides, the only surefire 100% effective form of contraception is not to have sex at all. ;)
Wrong, you can irradiate yourself and become sterile. In fact, I vote that we begin such a program of sterilization. We'll end overpopulation, and the abortion issue, in one fell swoop.

Shaehl

12-04-2005, 09:01 PM

Wrong, you can irradiate yourself and become sterile. In fact, I vote that we begin such a program of sterilization. We'll end overpopulation, and the abortion issue, in one fell swoop.

You can't be serious. Wiping out the ability to give birth would eliminate about 70% of the need for women. The other 30% is divided between cleaning, cooking and sex.

Also, I don't post pics because mind-blowing glory of my caliber is too intense for the masses to lay eyes upon.

Zangetsu Tensa

12-04-2005, 09:08 PM

You can't be serious.
You're right, I'm not.

Wiping out the ability to give birth would eliminate about 70% of the need for women. The other 30% is divided between cleaning, cooking and sex.
Sigged.

Also, I don't post pics because mind-blowing glory of my caliber is too intense for the masses to lay eyes upon.
...You're an overweight 30 year old virgin, aren't you?

maximoose666

12-04-2005, 09:28 PM

What gives women the right to kill their babies?

I agree with Shaehl, although he sounds a little Conservative...

Zangetsu Tensa, check my earlier post for something really inflamatory. And at what stage would you say a baby recieves human rights?

Shaehl

12-04-2005, 09:30 PM

...You're an overweight 30 year old virgin, aren't you?

Pshhh! I'll be 17 in one month. For the record I weigh 130lbs and am 5'11". All muscle I might add.

Zangetsu Tensa

12-04-2005, 09:31 PM

I agree with Shaehl, although he sounds a little Conservative...

Zangetsu Tensa, check my earlier post for something really inflamatory. And at what stage would you say a baby recieves human rights?
I checked, there was nothing sigworthy. Except maybe this:

If you allow foetuses which would have survived to be killed, then you may as well allow infanticide.
That made me laugh.

maximoose666

12-04-2005, 09:42 PM

at what stage would you say a baby recieves human rights?
Hey, answer the question! And I also remember saying that abortion was no better than murder - the thread had been dead for ages, and I thought a nice sweeping statement was needed to kick it off again.

Zangetsu Tensa

12-04-2005, 09:44 PM

Hey, answer the question! And I also remember saying that abortion was no better than murder - the thread had been dead for ages, and I thought a nice sweeping statement was needed to kick it off again.
If you really wanted to get it back on its feet, you would've said that you're against abortion, but for killing babies.

Shaehl

12-04-2005, 09:46 PM

If you really wanted to get it back on its feet, you would've said that you're against abortion, but for killing babies.
Regressive stance FTW.

maximoose666

12-04-2005, 09:48 PM

If you really wanted to get it back on its feet, you would've said that you're against abortion, but for killing babies.
lol hehe
Ok, that was funny. But can you at least tell me at what stage you believe a baby recieves human rights? It's a distinction which greatly affects the Abortion debate.

Zangetsu Tensa

12-04-2005, 09:49 PM

lol hehe
Ok, that was funny. But can you at least tell me at what stage you believe a baby recieves human rights? It's a distinction which greatly affects the Abortion debate.
It recieves human rights after I eat it.

Shaehl

12-04-2005, 09:59 PM

Speaking of food, I always found the fact that it is illegal to kill a cat, but it's perfectly fine to suck a human baby out of the womb, disturbing. Really, what the hell is that? We place more value in the lives of potential food sources than we do in our children. It's all perfectly fine though, because having a baby would totally make these slutty teenagers learn some accountability and we just can't have that. Pfft! What's next? Killing off old people because they're just such a burden? Oh wait, we already do that.

Zangetsu Tensa

12-04-2005, 10:00 PM

Speaking of food, I always found the fact that it is illegal to kill a cat
It is?

Crap.

I guess it's time to dispose of the evidence.

Shaehl

12-04-2005, 10:04 PM

It is?

Crap.

I guess it's time to dispose of the evidence.

Just say it got ran over by a car. That's what I did. Of course, I actually did run it over with a car. Had to make it realistic.

maximoose666

12-04-2005, 10:04 PM

Sigworthy.
See Below

tahoe

12-04-2005, 10:11 PM

Zangetsu Tensa

12-04-2005, 10:20 PM

Sigworthy.
See Below
I live to generate sigworthy phrases.

Shaehl

12-04-2005, 10:31 PM

i thought that abortion was an awfull thing and i would never be able to do it untill i wound up pregnant at 16. i though that i was a grown up when i was young so i was already living on my own then. anyways, it is murder, no doubt... its hard on the body and it tears your heart out, but still i am glad that i didn't have it. i was not capable of giving a child a descent life then.

those boys who think that protection is the girls responsibility are being heartless. women's bodies want babies and in the heat of the moment that urge takes over and tricks you.

still, when i turned 21 and was finally more able to take care of myself i decided that no matter what i would have the baby if i ever became pregnant again. for now i just have a ghost that comes and haunts me once a year on his birthday.

^_^

What qualifies a woman to determine whether or not a life is decent? An unnexpected child may not have the best of lives, but at least it'd still have a life. My own grandmother was born into a dirt-poor family until she was abandoned and then adopted. Her childhood was horrible, but now she is the most loving and kind person I've ever known. Not to mention the fact that she is indirectly responsible for bringing the world the greatness that is myself. Life is what you make of it, you can be living on the streets and still be happy, with the right attitude.

Also, no one says it's only the woman's responsibility to make sure protection is used. I think it is the responsibility of both the man and woman.

People can say it would be unfair to a baby to bring it up in poor circumstances, the only unfairness I see here is that the child never had a chance to decide that for itself.

Zangetsu Tensa

12-04-2005, 10:34 PM

There was this 11 year old who got her period early, got pregnant, and wanted to keep the baby.

If it weren't for abortion, she'd have had that baby too.

Then we'd have seen an 11 year old raising a baby.

Man how would she even have breast fed that thing.

That's what I want to know.

maximoose666

12-04-2005, 10:37 PM

Who are you to decide if someone's life is decent?

Whoa, way out of order, Shaehl. When someone's personally had a bad experience, you don't round on them in a debate. And I think its easy for us guys to say women are weak for allowing themselves to become pregnant because we never will be ourselves. Um... I still think abortion is wrong. The fact is, when you see people who are suffering badly, it's amazing how much they always cling to life. That's why I don't think that the baby's future quality of life is sufficient grounds for an abortion. Hell, for examples of life clinging on you need look no further than our own dear Bleach.

Zangetsu Tensa

12-04-2005, 10:41 PM

Who are you to decide if someone's life is decent?
Don't be a douchebag.

EDIT: In fact, Shaehl, you should remove that post. Attacking someone when they're vulnerable after spilling their heart out about a traumatizing experience they've had just shows low class.

It's clear that you've sacrificed your humanity for your idealism. Your posts are not worthy of respect or consideration.

Shaehl

12-04-2005, 11:04 PM

Don't be a douchebag.

EDIT: In fact, Shaehl, you should remove that post. Attacking someone when they're vulnerable after spilling their heart out about a traumatizing experience they've had just shows low class.

It's clear that you've sacrificed your humanity for your idealism. Your posts are not worthy of respect or consideration.

Tch, I see nothing wrong with the line, "Who are you to decide if someone's life is decent?" How is that offensive? The rest of the post, could possibly be interpretted as hurtful to her feelings, but it's basically the same things I've been saying this whole time, only I addressed her specifically instead of using generalizations.

maximoose666

12-04-2005, 11:08 PM

In fact, Shaehl, you should remove that post. Attacking someone when they're vulnerable after spilling their heart out about a traumatizing experience they've had just shows low class.
Heh.

Shaehl = Douchebag
Zangetsu Tensa = Legend

Shaehl

12-04-2005, 11:16 PM

Fine, damnit. I edited the post for less-offensiveness, but that's all I'm doing.

Zangetsu Tensa

12-04-2005, 11:40 PM

Zangetsu Tensa = Legend
This man speaks truth.

tahoe

12-05-2005, 02:21 AM

hmmm.. i just wanted to share my perspective. the clinic i went to was bombed so i had to go to another place. at the time i was so angry because it was easy enough for those people to hate someone like me and bomb the clinic but none of those people would have been willing to take care of me or support me so that i could have the baby.

back then i was suicidal and didn't realize that the rough life i was living was eventually going to smooth out the edges of my heart. so in that sence it is true that i had no right to decide about the decency of a childs life.

for what its worth, the experience itself led me into an apathetic abyss for years. it was impossible to forgive myself for being so selfish. now i think that abortion is really not worth it but i also think that gung-ho pro-lifers should try to make more of an effort to help if they care so much.

Zangetsu Tensa

12-05-2005, 02:27 AM

gung-ho pro-lifers should try to make more of an effort to help if they care so much.
As Shaehl has proven, these truly hardcore pro-lifers care for nothing but their own ideology and how to impose it upon others - they don't care about people like you, they don't actually want to help, and they don't give a second thought about your feelings. They're willing to do anything to stop those that stand in their way, even if it means bombing and murder.

They've sacrificed their humanity for their ideology, and that is why I will oppose them to my last - not because I disagree with their beliefs, but because I despise their methods and the empty caricature of humanity that they have become.

Some of the worst things in the world have been done with the best of intentions. Shaehl and those like him would do best to remember that.

FascionViktem5k

12-05-2005, 08:27 AM

i think if your gonna have a baby... take care of it.. if not.. don't just give birth and leave it... and not only that but abortion also goes into the whole religious thing.. and Jews believe life begins at first breathe while Christians believe it's when conception happens.. and all those shinanigins... if you ever get into an argument with someone about this in real life and pull the Religious gun on you.. use that... please!!!!

anyway... here's my thing... i think it's ok.. but i also think it's wrong:
-life is precious... i see this everyday, i take care of kids as a part time job, there's nothing better... "better than chocolate?" you say? "yes... better than chocolate..." ... alright... sorry bout that.. thought i'd add a little comic relief in there...
-if your circumstances need you to not have a child... then it's ok... for example... my mom (i use my mom for a lot of these discussions) she was going to have a child between me and my brother but there was something wrong with her heart at the time and i don't know if you know this... but in Bulgaria after the fall of communism we didn't really have that good of medicine... i'm sure if this happened now they'd be able to save both lives, but back then it was either she dies, or the undeveloped fetus does... and since i'm here... she obviously chose the fetus... and i say fetus because it doesn't have a grave (unlike the firstborn who died 2 weeks after he was born)
-i don't know if this still happens.. but in my country.. women (if they got pregnant and didn't want the child) were paid to deliver it... breast-feed it... and then give it to the hospital to put up for adoption (something about having a bigger population...) so while my mother's firstborn was dying, this lady who she shared a room with abandoned her completely healthy child (without breat-feeding which was breech of contract but they didn't care) that's not right either... something should be done about both abandonment and abortion... (by the way the lady left and then one of the nurses was like "oh she'll be back in another 9 months...." ....um... how do they know these children their giving up for adoption don't have STD's??? the mother was known sleep around and party and do some drugs and stuff... and yet the child was healthy... it's a miracle!!!!)

i'm sure it's different now... it's been... a bit more than 20 years since this happened... so i hope it's different

-and as cartmen so well put it on SouthPark "it's my hot body i'll do wat i want!" ... women have been repressed for... hmm.... 2000 years? or so? and this is their first taste of freedom to explore whatever sexuality they have (even thought they should be using condoms)

and i'm sure i had more to say.... but that whole story with my mom threw me off... darn you mother!!!! (j/k.. i love my mommy.... i'm 18 and i'm like "i love her!" ... she's awesome!!! go awesome moms!!!)

thief.13

12-05-2005, 08:32 AM

i agree with zangetsu that worst things have resulted from things that were done with the best intentions.
like, some european countries have suffered the consequences of abortion and such.
they have very old population (majority are old people) and in a few years' time, they'd have really low effective labor force, this could be a really big problem.

i'm pro-life myself, but sometimes abortion should also be considered, like during cases of ectopic pregnancies wherein the life of the mother is also endangered.
what i'm saying is, abortion should only be a last resort, and at all costs one should avoid it if possible.has anyone watched this film Silent Scream?it shows how the fetus seems to yell in pain when they're aborted.their mouths open and close as if they're screaming...

captain_soifon

12-05-2005, 11:50 AM

man just use a condom if u dont want a baby, although the church is against condoms, also if the baby had some illness or soemthing than umm.. =s well as a parent a nightmare

maximoose666

12-05-2005, 01:52 PM

and at all costs one should avoid it if possible.has anyone watched this film Silent Scream?it shows how the fetus seems to yell in pain when they're aborted.their mouths open and close as if they're screaming...
Um... yes, but it's only a film. I don't think anything more needs to be said to that.

Abortion is only justifiable if the mother's life is in danger. In any other case, it is the needless taking of life. I always find it amusing how liberal people tend to care a lot about animal rights and not at all about the rights of the unborn child.

thief.13

12-05-2005, 02:20 PM

Um... yes, but it's only a film. I don't think anything more needs to be said to that.

well, it's actually a documentary... an ultrasound and stuff, so it's got some facts.

Shaehl

12-05-2005, 03:52 PM

As Shaehl has proven, these truly hardcore pro-lifers care for nothing but their own ideology and how to impose it upon others - they don't care about people like you, they don't actually want to help, and they don't give a second thought about your feelings. They're willing to do anything to stop those that stand in their way, even if it means bombing and murder.

They've sacrificed their humanity for their ideology, and that is why I will oppose them to my last - not because I disagree with their beliefs, but because I despise their methods and the empty caricature of humanity that they have become.

Some of the worst things in the world have been done with the best of intentions. Shaehl and those like him would do best to remember that.

I like how you make baseless presumptions about me. I'm not a hardcore pro-lifer. In my first post on this thread, I stated that I believe abortion should be legal as long as the baby's father and the mother's parents (If she is under 18) have a say in the matter. I don't think abortion is right, but I don't think it should be completely banned either.

You have no place getting mad at me for my previous post. If that girl didn't want her experiences to be used in debate, she shouldn't have tried to use them to support her argument in a debate forum. Really, what do you expect me to do? Just automatically accept someone's argument just because they bring personal feelings into the matter? Sorry, but that's not how I work.

For the record, I believe bombing abortion clinics is counter-productive and just plain wrong. Don't pretend that you know anything about me.

maximoose666

12-05-2005, 04:05 PM

well, it's actually a documentary... an ultrasound and stuff, so it's got some facts.

Ok, fair enough, apologies.
Let's cool it a bit in here. Shaehl, would you care to outline your political and ethical beliefs, seeing as you're "not a harcore pro-lifer"?

Shaehl

12-05-2005, 04:05 PM

-and as cartmen so well put it on SouthPark "it's my hot body i'll do wat i want!" ... women have been repressed for... hmm.... 2000 years? or so? and this is their first taste of freedom to explore whatever sexuality they have (even thought they should be using condoms)

What do you mean this is the first chance they have had to "explore whatever sexuality they have..."? There have been whores all throughout history, women having sex is nothing new. Also, so what if they have been previously oppressed? Does that give them the right to do whatever they want now? The fact that they were once oppressed doesn't mean they can kill their babies. I hate to break it too you, but every single race and nation on the earth was oppressed, conquered or enslaved at one point in time. Some not as long or severely as others, but the fact remains that they were. Lack of rights for women was most certainly a bad thing, however, it is in the past now. Your people were oppressed, join the club. It doesn't entitle women to more rights than anyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximoose666
Ok, fair enough, apologies.
Let's cool it a bit in here. Shaehl, would you care to outline your political and ethical beliefs, seeing as you're "not a harcore pro-lifer"?

As I said before, I believe abortion is morally wrong in any case where the mother's life is not in danger. However, I know that I can't expect everyone to believe what I believe. Therefore, I think that legally, abortion should be legal, as long as the father and the mother's parents (possibly the father's parents too) are able to have a say in whether or not the baby is aborted. I don't condone the bombing of abortion clinics, or any other type of sabotage.

Zangetsu Tensa

12-05-2005, 07:33 PM

You have no place getting mad at me for my previous post.
As a matter of fact, I do. I found it disgusting because it was not so much an arugment as it was a personal attack on an emotionally vulnerable person - this is not something anyone would do casually if they were not "hardcore".

If you were just careless, perhaps that's an explaination, but it didn't seem that way judging from how reluctant you were to even edit the post.

akin_t

12-05-2005, 07:44 PM

Abortion huh? Well I think abortion is a very controversial subject, there are circumstances where it seems ok and others where it's a complete no no.

If a woman is raped, I think she should have the right to abort her baby, no questions asked whatsoever.

If a woman went ahead to have sex and got pregant by accident, then I think she and the father should be responsible enough to have that baby, if they can't take care of it, let them give it to a family who wants a child and can take adequate care of it.

Abortion is like murder, it's just killing a life that could have been; nonetheless, people don't even have such a high regard for life in America today, If congress allows soldiers to die in Iraq for no reasonable cause then, it only makes sense that they don't have the right to tell a woman whether she should let her baby live or not.

Women should be considerate though, and let babies have a chance at life. It is hard to consider a Zygote as a baby since it is only a couple of cells, but I mean it is going to develop into a healthy child (all things being equal). So if you can't create life, I don't think you should take it away.

America should legalize it, but like they have campaigns to help people avoid smoking or doing drugs, they should have campaigns to soften the hearts of people who are thinking of having an abortion.

maximoose666

12-05-2005, 09:16 PM

I think that legally, abortion should be legal, as long as the father and the mother's parents (possibly the father's parents too) are able to have a say in whether or not the baby is aborted.
The unhappy couple's parents should have a say? Does this go for adults too? Do a forty-year old couple who want an abortion have to consult would-be granny?
If congress allows soldiers to die in Iraq for no reasonable cause then, it only makes sense that they don't have the right to tell a woman whether she should let her baby live or not.
I agree, but I think there should be no war - and no abortion.

tahoe

12-05-2005, 10:08 PM

no war would be good. no abortion would be easier if there was more of a sence of community between people.

i picked up a book called conversations with god once and read a chapter on the inefficiency of our society. it basically said that the best time for humans to reproduce is in their early twenties which is a time when they are still discovering themselves so it is the worst time for them to raise children. 65 is generally considered a good time to retire and at that point there are no roles for the elderly in society. when people get old and have no role to fufill then they just get lethagic and senile. the book outlined a better plan where the older people raise the children so that they have a functioning social role and so that the youth who have children can be more productive and be allowed to mature abit more before it is their turn.
of course it is impossible at this point because all the old people have already raised their children and just want to travel around and relax but i thought it was an interesting idea.

Shaehl

12-05-2005, 11:36 PM

The unhappy couple's parents should have a say? Does this go for adults too? Do a forty-year old couple who want an abortion have to consult would-be granny?

No, it would only be that way for people under 18. I said that multiple times before and just didn't feel like being redundant in that particular post.

Zangetsu, as I said before, if you don't want your personal experiences debated, don't use them in an argument. Sure, I probably could've been nicer, but I wasn't really thinking that at the time. I was thinking in purely argumentative terms, she brought up a point and I tried to counter it. I didn't even realize that it could be construed as offensive till you pointed it out. I was hesitant to edit it, because I have this thing about being wrong about stuff... I'm not. I decided to edit it anyway, just out of the kindness of my heart.

maximoose666

12-05-2005, 11:46 PM

Therefore, I think that legally, abortion should be legal
I believe abortion is morally wrong in any case where the mother's life is not in danger
So you support a system which you believe is morally wrong. No offense to you, but there's only one term to describe that, and it's hypocrisy.

I decided to edit it anyway, just out of the kindness of my heart.
Well I'm sure we're all very grateful.

Aragami

12-05-2005, 11:57 PM

It's not a complicated argument.

IF the girl is raped, then an abortion is at the very least understandable.

Otherwise, you know that having sex brings the possibility of pregnancy. You know what the hell you're doin, how horrible of you to not wn up to your actions. But society today tells its citizens to fuk whoever you want and not regard the actual value of life.

"It's the woman's body, she should have say, blah blah" Oh, they want to have say when it conflicts with their own selfish ways. Screw the fact that a child has been brought into the picture. Yeah, kill it, you're doing the right thing cause you're making yourself more comfortable. Fuk that adoption crap too.

And you anti-abortion warmongers...ugh, you need to be shot. I can see having a different opinion, but wtf, who the hel are you to start trouble for others?

Regardless of how you feel, people will make their own decisions. Ultimately who has to deal with it? They do, same for your decisions and yourself.

But hey, what do I know...

Shaehl

12-06-2005, 12:01 AM

So you support a system which you believe is morally wrong. No offense to you, but there's only one term to describe that, and it's hypocrisy.

Well I'm sure we're all very grateful.

I'm just trying to be realistic. I could push for the abolishment of all abortion, but with the way the country is now, that'll never happen. Besides, regardless of what I believe, it isn't my place to forcefully make others conform to that set of beliefs. To go into further detail, I think abortion should still only be legal in certain situations, as long as the father and, for people under 18, the parents agree. If I could have things completely my way, I'd say abortion would only be legal if the mother is in danger, but we can't teach people to run before they walk. The first logical step, in my mind, is to get fathers into a postion where they have a say in the lives of their children. Then we can push for more.

FascionViktem5k

12-06-2005, 04:58 AM

What do you mean this is the first chance they have had to "explore whatever sexuality they have..."? There have been whores all throughout history, women having sex is nothing new. Also, so what if they have been previously oppressed? Does that give them the right to do whatever they want now? The fact that they were once oppressed doesn't mean they can kill their babies. I hate to break it too you, but every single race and nation on the earth was oppressed, conquered or enslaved at one point in time. Some not as long or severely as others, but the fact remains that they were. Lack of rights for women was most certainly a bad thing, however, it is in the past now. Your people were oppressed, join the club. It doesn't entitle women to more rights than anyone else.

i wasn't meaning anything by it.. i was just simply saying what excuses for it are... and women have been oppressed way more than anybody in history... i'm sorry but even when black people were given right women still had sh*t... yes i know people have been oppressed in many places.. i'm not saying their not... i'm just saying that because men never understood women's sexuality and all that crap it was just repressed and then all of a sudden women began burning their bra's and all that other good stuff... their given a chance to experiment i guess.... i know there've been whores and prostitutes throughout history... i did a research paper on them... but it was never ok for a woman to sleep with a man unless it was her husband and she was supposed to lose her virginity on her wedding night... whereas now... it's not that strict... you can lose your virginity and you don't have to be married (i know i did... and my mom didn't care.. then again she married at 19... hmm) .... am i even making sense anymore? watever i'll leave it at that.. if it doesn't make sense tell me and i'll fix it a bit...

maximoose666

12-06-2005, 12:36 PM

Shaehl

12-06-2005, 12:44 PM

i wasn't meaning anything by it.. i was just simply saying what excuses for it are... and women have been oppressed way more than anybody in history... i'm sorry but even when black people were given right women still had sh*t... yes i know people have been oppressed in many places.. i'm not saying their not... i'm just saying that because men never understood women's sexuality and all that crap it was just repressed and then all of a sudden women began burning their bra's and all that other good stuff... their given a chance to experiment i guess.... i know there've been whores and prostitutes throughout history... i did a research paper on them... but it was never ok for a woman to sleep with a man unless it was her husband and she was supposed to lose her virginity on her wedding night... whereas now... it's not that strict... you can lose your virginity and you don't have to be married (i know i did... and my mom didn't care.. then again she married at 19... hmm) .... am i even making sense anymore? watever i'll leave it at that.. if it doesn't make sense tell me and i'll fix it a bit...

First off, I don't see what their sexuality has to do with killing babies. Are you saying women should be able to kill their babies because there was a time when they didn't have sex as much? Also, you realize you contradict yourself by saying you know there were whores throughout history, but you also think they never slept with anyone, but their husbands. What do you think a whore is? There were just as many prostitutes and skanks back in the day, as there are now. Still, I don't see what any of this has to do with women being able to kill their babies. They don't get more rights than anyone else, regardless of what happened to them in the past.

_strangechild_

12-06-2005, 02:41 PM

I think it's stupid when people have abortions all the time, I know this person and gosh knows how many she's had and I don't understand why they let her have all these abortions. It's like.. why doesn't she get good condoms or something? She can't just keep relying on this and you're supposed to get permission for if you're unwell or if the child's severely disabled or whatever but I don't see why she had permission 'cause she's fine. She just doesn't want to be committed, that's all.

If the mother's health is in danger or if she doesn't want to have another child because of a good reason then I think you should be allowed to abort, but I think abortion should be the last thing you consider.

I think it's wrong when people are made to abort kids for whatever reason. I had to do an essay on the One Child Policy in China and found that they make (or made) women abort their second child no matter how far into pregnancy they were.

I think it's sad when you hear about women who abort children when the father has no say in the matter. If the father wants the baby, perhaps you should have it knowing that the father will take care of it instead of getting rid of the foetus - making sure he'll be alone in the matter. Then again, some women are selfish and don't want to give the fathers' the satisfaction kind of thing.

I can't say I really know much about abortions and things, but that's what I think at the moment.

Neve

12-06-2005, 05:48 PM

Firslty, condoms are 97-98% effective at best, and that does not include the danger that they may split. There will always be occasions when the best suitable protection is used, but when pregnancies still happen.

I believe that abortion is wrong in general, and that you should not take human life. However, there are a few issues to consider.

Firstly, I believe that the mother has perfect right to abort the child after rape. Apart from anything, the mother would probably harbour a kind of inner resentment towards the child if she was forced to have it, and this may make the life of both the child and the mother very miserable.

Secondly, I believe that in the case of a teenage pregnancy the mother should be able to abort the child as the child may ruin her education, her career, and possibly the rest of her life. Living off a minimum income with very few qualifications, this may make the life of the child very miserable also.

_strangechild_

12-06-2005, 05:53 PM

Odd that the girl's condoms (if she has any) are really uneffective... If you really don't want to take the risk get those things which stop you getting pregnant or something. Ooh, like that chip people can have inserted. I watched that on a programme once...
In the development of a foetus is goes through different stages, so I wonder if when they abort it it is at the human-like stage. (Sorry, random thought).

I agree with you about the rape thing, but I personally wouldn't abort a child or resent the child because of who their father is and his actions.

Yes, but if they have several abortions, shouldn't they be stopped and given some advice as how to stop having to abort all the time? Can't it effect whether or not you can have children later on in life?

Shaehl

12-06-2005, 05:54 PM

Secondly, I believe that in the case of a teenage pregnancy the mother should be able to abort the child as the child may ruin her education, her career, and possibly the rest of her life. Living off a minimum income with very few qualifications, this may make the life of the child very miserable also.

There's always adoption. I'd only agree with that stance if the father didn't want/couldn't take care of the baby and if the father or mother's parents also couldn't help support the baby.

_strangechild_

12-06-2005, 05:58 PM

[Nod] Um. I know two people (teenagers) who are perfectly fine with their kids, they have support from everyone really. =D

Umm, I think it's kind of.. wrong to abort a child without telling the father or considering letting him look after the child and such.
- Oh, I kind of said that previously, sorry.

maximoose666

12-06-2005, 06:09 PM

In the development of a foetus is goes through different stages, so I wonder if when they abort it it is at the human-like stage.
In the UK, yes.
Abortion is allowed up to the age of 24 weeks. There is someone in the 6th form of our school who was born premature at 20 weeks old and survived; is normal; and looks completely normal. One of the interesting developments of recent years is that science has shown us just how early the baby develops. Even the introducer of the law legalising abortion (in the UK) has been on television (Newsnight) saying he thinks the law should be changed to make abortion legal only at an earlier stage of development than 24 weeks.

Secondly, I believe that in the case of a teenage pregnancy the mother should be able to abort the child as the child may ruin her education, her career, and possibly the rest of her life. Living off a minimum income with very few qualifications, this may make the life of the child very miserable also.
I think you have no right to decide whether the child would rather die or grow up on income support. Besides,
[Nod] Um. I know two people (teenagers) who are perfectly fine with their kids, they have support from everyone really. =D
There's a piece of evidence against you, I'm afraid; and I happen to know you don't happen to know anyone with a teenage pregnancy, Neve.

_strangechild_

12-06-2005, 06:26 PM

What if you don't know you're pregnant... umm, actually, I dunno when you can find out if you're pregnant. O_o.

I do, actually. One of them is a friend I've known since Junior school. O_o Rhea is her name, a thank you.

maximoose666

12-06-2005, 06:36 PM

I do, actually. One of them is a friend I've known since Junior school. O_o Rhea is her name, a thank you.

and I happen to know you don't happen to know anyone with a teenage pregnancy, Neve.

No, sorry, that was aimed at Neve, aka itsovernow, whom I know. I was using your (_strangechild_'s) experience as evidence against his remarks; I see how it might have sounded like I was disbelieving you though, my bad.
If you don't know you're pregnant: I hate to say this, but: tough.
People who have sex without adequate protection know the risks, and I don't think an unplanned pregnancy is grounds for an abortion (or if you prefer, for killing an unborn child.)

_strangechild_

12-06-2005, 06:47 PM

Neve

12-06-2005, 08:24 PM

Sorry to come back to you a bit late on this moose, I havent visited this thread in a while. Firstly don't assume you know everything about me simply because we share a school. I do know someone (or know of someone) who has had an abortion due to teenage pregnancy. My sister has a friend at parkside who'se friend (ok,ok a little distant but I promise you that the information is all true) had an abortion because of a pregnancy at 12 years of age. 12! can you imagine what a mess that would make of her life, not to mention the life of the child if she went through with that.

Shaehl

12-06-2005, 08:25 PM

Ah riiiight. Sorry.

Ha ha. This girl, my teacher told me about, knew a girl who worked in a corner shop and she once collasped on the floor and got knocked unconscious and when she woke she discovered she had a baby and that she was pregnant previously without knowing!
Yeah, but I wonder how many days it takes a pregnancy test to know if there's a foetus present.

I think people can do better to avoid getting pregnant if they tried, to be honest.

Oh yeah? Well I knew a guy, who knew a girl, who was friends with this college student, who was engaged to a psychologist, who knew another psychologist, who said he saw a study showing that people who get abortions experience mental trauma.

Neve

12-06-2005, 08:25 PM

Combined with strangechild's other person who had an abortion from a teenage pregnancy, that equals the number of people who were happy.

_strangechild_

12-06-2005, 08:26 PM

Oh yeah? Well I knew a guy, who knew a girl, who was friends with this college student, who was engaged to a psychologist, who knew another psychologist, who said he saw a study showing that people who get abortions experience mental trauma.
I know they can get traumatised by it.. I didn't say they didn't.

Shaehl

12-06-2005, 08:27 PM

_strangechild_

12-06-2005, 08:28 PM

Isn't 12 the age people are allowed to have sex in Holland or something?

I know of a lot of people have sex at that age. O_o. Oddly enough. But I know more people who have sex aged thirteen.

Shaehl

12-06-2005, 08:28 PM

I know they can get traumatised by it.. I didn't say they didn't.

I was just making fun of the way you came across your information.

captain_soifon

12-06-2005, 08:30 PM

12 is the legal age for sex in australia but u can only have it with a person 2 years older or younger than you as long as they are over 12 until ur 16 u can do anything

_strangechild_

12-06-2005, 08:36 PM

I was just making fun of the way you came across your information.
Lol, I did not do that... ¬_¬

Really? 12 with a 16 year old? When it's young people it seems weird when people say that a twelve year old can have sex with a sixteen year old. But when you say a 32 year old having sex with a 36 year old, it doesn't sound as bad...

akin_t

12-06-2005, 09:04 PM

12 is the legal age for sex in australia but u can only have it with a person 2 years older or younger than you as long as they are over 12 until ur 16 u can do anything

What! are you serious? that isn't right at all IMO. the should change that rule ASAP, I mean don't they worry about high schoolers getting preganant?

_strangechild_

12-06-2005, 09:22 PM

In Holland their average age for when people lose their virginity (this has been told to me recently - she didn't mention when this was recorded) is 21 years old as far as I know and the age you're allowed to have sex is 12.

maximoose666

12-06-2005, 09:27 PM

My sister has a friend at parkside who'se friend (ok,ok a little distant but I promise you that the information is all true) had an abortion because of a pregnancy at 12 years of age. 12! can you imagine what a mess that would make of her life, not to mention the life of the child if she went through with that.
I certainly didn't know that. I'm sorry for your sister's friend...'s friend, but I can't help thinking a couple of things.
Firstly, twelve is pretty young to be having sex. If abortion wasn't legal in Britain then children that age would have to think more carefully about the consequences of their actions. At the age of twelve, I would query whether children are able to make an informed and choice about having sex, particularly due to peer pressure. Readily available abortion simply encourages them to forget about the future.
Secondly, (and this is a really hard one to say and probably to take), I think it was still wrong of this girl to have the abortion. The first reason for this is that the baby could have been brought up by the girl's parents, it wouldn't make that much difference, and if they allowed or failed to prevent their daughter (who can't really be held responsible at that age) from becoming pregnant, the least they could have done was to bring up the child. The second reason is that abortion can make it difficult to become pregnant again; there's no guarantee the girl would never want to have children. The final reason is that this kid will now have to live with the fact that she murdered her baby. Personally, I'd prefer almost anything to that.

jwhizz

12-06-2005, 09:30 PM

This is one of those subjects that I am kind of split on. If someone feels they are mature enough to engage in sexual activities, and does so willingly, then they should suffer the consequences of their own actions. This goes for both men and women. Men, wear condoms, or just dont have sex. Women, if your not ready to get pregnant, dont have sex. That is the easiest way not to have to choose between pregnancy or abortion. If you are so set on having sex, there places give out birth control for free.

On the other hand, if it is an uncontrollable act(basically rape), you should have the choice. It is not your fault if you are raped by somebody.

So I guess I am more pro-life then pro-choice, but there are certain circumstances that do call for different actions.

FascionViktem5k

12-07-2005, 01:07 AM

First off, I don't see what their sexuality has to do with killing babies. Are you saying women should be able to kill their babies because there was a time when they didn't have sex as much? Also, you realize you contradict yourself by saying you know there were whores throughout history, but you also think they never slept with anyone, but their husbands. What do you think a whore is? There were just as many prostitutes and skanks back in the day, as there are now. Still, I don't see what any of this has to do with women being able to kill their babies. They don't get more rights than anyone else, regardless of what happened to them in the past.

um... all i was saying was that they were never supposed to do any of that stuff... a woman of that time period was supposed to lose her virginity when she got married and if she lost it earlier she was cast out of society.. i guess i didn't phrase it the right way... i was saying that yes there's been whores and all that good stuff.. but they were never accepted because of what they did... they had to like live outside of the community because of who they were... whereas if a woman wanted to be accepted by the community she would abide by the rules and do what she was told and have sex only when she was married and in order to have babies... whereas now.. who cares about babies? lets just have fun and have it feel good! oh yeah!!! .... see that's why there's abortion... all these magazines and stuff going around being like "try this position!" .... and they don't say anything about "wear a condom/use birth control/blah blah" ... sorry if i'm not making sense... and please don't sound angry! i'm not an expert at this!

but i will add some info on a freind who had an abortion and another who did not!: it mainly has to do with the father.. my first freind who got pregnant.. well.. her boyfreind broke up with her.. and she was just like "i'm getting an abortion cuz he's sure as hell not gonna pay for child support" ... so she went through with it.. however my second freind who got pregnant.. she's like 18-19 when she did... her boyfreind didn't want her to do it.. and he wanted to take care of it with her.. so that's also why.. and she was really pretty so seeing her pregnant made me feel all happy inside cuz like she's one of those pretty pregnant women.. it was so cute.. cuz she was skinny.. and then the belly! lol! and during graduation she was all like "i'm hot!" and i was like "well.. it's summer and we're wearing these things!" and she was like "um.. no.. i think it has to do with the fact that i'm 5 months pregnant!" and i was like "oh.. yeah.. that too.." .. she was soo funny!!! ... i miss her... damn you college!!!!

Shaehl

12-07-2005, 01:19 AM

um... all i was saying was that they were never supposed to do any of that stuff... a woman of that time period was supposed to lose her virginity when she got married and if she lost it earlier she was cast out of society.. i guess i didn't phrase it the right way... i was saying that yes there's been whores and all that good stuff.. but they were never accepted because of what they did... they had to like live outside of the community because of who they were... whereas if a woman wanted to be accepted by the community she would abide by the rules and do what she was told and have sex only when she was married and in order to have babies... whereas now.. who cares about babies? lets just have fun and have it feel good! oh yeah!!! .... see that's why there's abortion... all these magazines and stuff going around being like "try this position!" .... and they don't say anything about "wear a condom/use birth control/blah blah" ... sorry if i'm not making sense... and please don't sound angry! i'm not an expert at this!

but i will add some info on a freind who had an abortion and another who did not!: it mainly has to do with the father.. my first freind who got pregnant.. well.. her boyfreind broke up with her.. and she was just like "i'm getting an abortion cuz he's sure as hell not gonna pay for child support" ... so she went through with it.. however my second freind who got pregnant.. she's like 18-19 when she did... her boyfreind didn't want her to do it.. and he wanted to take care of it with her.. so that's also why.. and she was really pretty so seeing her pregnant made me feel all happy inside cuz like she's one of those pretty pregnant women.. it was so cute.. cuz she was skinny.. and then the belly! lol! and during graduation she was all like "i'm hot!" and i was like "well.. it's summer and we're wearing these things!" and she was like "um.. no.. i think it has to do with the fact that i'm 5 months pregnant!" and i was like "oh.. yeah.. that too.." .. she was soo funny!!! ... i miss her... damn you college!!!!

So it's ok for someone to get an abortion if they aren't pretty?

FascionViktem5k

12-07-2005, 01:31 AM

So it's ok for someone to get an abortion if they aren't pretty?

that's not wat i said.. i was simply saying that she was pretty... the girl that got the abortion was pretty too, but it was just cute seeing how prettier it made my other freind to have a tummy... with a creature inside it...
i was saying the reason why it happens has to do with the father as well... cuz the first guy didnt want crap and the second was willing to live with her and take care of the child... stop twisting things that aren't there...

Neve

12-07-2005, 09:04 PM

I think it would matter less when you were 12 whether abortion was legal or not, I am not sure it is really something you would consider before sex at that young an age (although it probably depends on the person, I don't think making abortion legal would by any means wipe out teenage sex).
Secondly, I'm not sure whether it is up to us to decide whether a child of 12 should have a baby. To have a child (so I am told) is to put onesself in pain greater than you or I have ever experienced or will ever experience, and to subject someone so young to that kind of pain without giving her a choice is not something we have the right to do. As for stopping her have sex, it is very difficult to do, especially with the problem of peer pressure, as there are so many places available for it to happen.
The second reason is that abortion can make it difficult to become pregnant again

The final reason is that this kid will now have to live with the fact that she murdered her baby. Personally, I'd prefer almost anything to that

We are not forcing her to have an abortion, we are simply allowing her to make the choice. The parents would be told these facts, and allowed to make an informed decision reguarding what they believe is best for their daughter.

maximoose666

12-07-2005, 09:12 PM

to subject someone so young to that kind of pain without giving her a choice is not something we have the right to do
People are going to hate me for this, I know.
But she made the choice to have sex and knew most of the risks.
We're not subjecting her to anything.
It was her decision.
I know that sounds uncompassionate, but that's the way it is.

Neve

12-07-2005, 09:14 PM

At the age of twelve, I would query whether children are able to make an informed and choice about having sex
You said it yourself.

thief.13

12-07-2005, 09:15 PM

jwhizz

12-07-2005, 09:20 PM

have you watched/read The Cider House Rules? well, there was this moral dilemma relating to abortion. the girl got pregnant out of incest and the father of her baby is her own dad! what do you think of that? IF the pregnancy was normal except for the fact that the baby was conceived out of incest, would you consider abortion for that baby?

It really depends. If the daughter was intentionally having sex with her dad, thats her own fault. IF she is raped by her dad, that's a whole different story

Neve

12-07-2005, 09:21 PM

Did she know that it was....her dad?

thief.13

12-07-2005, 09:30 PM

she didn't like what her dad was doing to her, but she's basically trapped in that environment because she's too young to go out on her own and with her self-esteem shattered she really didn't have the courage at first to disobey her dad.she was miserable and dint know what to do...
if the pregnancy was normal and there was no danger to both mom and baby, would you still save the baby or not?

Neve

12-07-2005, 09:36 PM

Having never read it I cannot give a really honest opinion as I do not know to what extent it was rape and to what extent it was voluntary, but from what I have heard it sounds like it was more involuntary than voluntary, and if it really was agaisnt the will of the mother to have the child in the first place then I believe that she should be allowed an abortion, especially if she is young, which it sounds to me from your posts like she is. From how her dad is portrayed, it does not sound like he is the sort of person who would be willing to help bring up the child in a constructive manner. Very interesting case though, what actually happens to the child?

thief.13

12-07-2005, 09:47 PM

yeah that was what i was thinking too. i'm 90% pro-life and believe that abortion should only be performed for cases when the mother's life is truly endangered and the baby has a low success rate in surviving when born.
i saw on the local news some years back about a very similar case to this. the young girl gave birth to the baby and her dad was sent to jail for lifetime imprisonment. and i think it was very brave for the young girl to make that decision and share her sotory on tv. but i still don't feel right about the baby knowing that his/her own mom is also his/her sister...

maximoose666

12-07-2005, 09:51 PM

You said it yourself.
I did indeed. I was hoping you wouldn't pick up on it.
Score: Neve-1 Moose-0

But you must admit it's a very unusual case and doesn't have much bearing on the main argument. Suppose we include 'the very young' with 'women whose lives would be endangered', let's discuss the rights and wrongs of abortion for the remainder.
@ thief. 13: omg what a horrible story, I'm glad it's not true. Polanski's Chinatown has something similar.

Tami

12-07-2005, 10:01 PM

thief.13

12-07-2005, 10:14 PM

maximoose666

12-07-2005, 10:45 PM

I'm pro-choice. I do not believe that a fetus is a baby until late in the second trimester and third trimester, when abortions are unsafe, and not permitted anyway.

There are far too many possibilities for exceptions for a law against abortion to be reasonable. Protection fails, women get raped, people make mistakes. It's irresponsible to take away the choice of having a safe medical procedure administered to remedy a potentially devastating situation. There's also the fact, that if abortion were outlawed, "underground" abortions would occur, and people who are not medically trained or certified would be administering them, potentially killing the mother along with aborting the fetus.
You may not count the foetus as human until the end of the second trimester, but babies born prematurely before then can often survive. At 22 weeks or thereafter, medical science can enable babies to survive outside the womb, with an increasing survival chance for every day later. As to foetuses earlier on, they may not be able to survive outside the womb, but a) they will be able to given a little more time - you'd deny them that chance - and b) they can certainly feel the terrible pain abortion gives them. My source, by the way, is http://www.spucscotland.org/education/beginningoflife/foetaldevelopment/
it's a pro-life site, but they do back up all their facts.
As to your point about 'underground' or, as I believe they used to be known, "Back Street" abortions: yes, it's valid. But should we legalise murder so people can kill their enemies safely?

Tami

12-07-2005, 11:19 PM

the thing with allowing abortion is that you can do away with bestowing the great responsibility that should come along with having sex. aside from all those women who are in danger of losing their life because of pregnancy, we have no right to think we can take away life just because it is residing in our own bodies.
and a fetus is very much a baby even in its first trimester.i mentioned about a video of abortion on a baby in my previous threads and there were really signs that the baby was in much pain during the abortion and it was performed on the first trimester.

i think the best way is to properly disseminate information about safe sex and its repercussions.
The option of abortion doesn't really lessen the responsibilities that go along with sex. Few people have abortions frivously. Can I ask you how many people you know that have had abortions? Everybody that I know who has gone through with one had the most difficult time weighing their options, and making that decision. It wasn't an "Oh, look at that I'm pregnant, I'll just go have an abortion" mentailty, rather it was "What would be best for me and what could happen if I have the baby"?

You may not count the foetus as human until the end of the second trimester, but babies born prematurely before then can often survive. At 22 weeks or thereafter, medical science can enable babies to survive outside the womb, with an increasing survival chance for every day later. As to foetuses earlier on, they may not be able to survive outside the womb, but a) they will be able to given a little more time - you'd deny them that chance - and b) they can certainly feel the terrible pain abortion gives them. My source, by the way, is http://www.spucscotland.org/education/beginningoflife/foetaldevelopment/
it's a pro-life site, but they do back up all their facts.
As to your point about 'underground' or, as I believe they used to be known, "Back Street" abortions: yes, it's valid. But should we legalise murder so people can kill their enemies safely?

Babies born prematurely at 22 weeks, were born toward the end of their second trimester. Fetuses before that general timeframe have a very low chance of survival if born. The pain they may or may not feel is debatable, but I would not say that they certainly feel pain. That's your opinion, and I do not agree with it. http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/fetal-pain.shtml

In short, the evidence indicates that fetuses do not feel pain until after the start of the third trimester—and even that evidence remains uncertain because it's impossible to know for sure that fetuses consciously experience pain in the same way that a person does.

I also disagree with calling abortion murder. That depends on whether you consider a fetus to be a human or not, and I do not think that they are humans yet, and there's no point in debating that, as it's my personal opinion.

FascionViktem5k

12-07-2005, 11:44 PM

I also disagree with calling abortion murder. That depends on whether you consider a fetus to be a human or not, and I do not think that they are humans yet, and there's no point in debating that, as it's my personal opinion.

i agree with you on that.. and personally i don't think it's human until like the end of the first month.. it can't think, it can't breathe, and it can't do many things... but by the end it is able to do all of that good stuff! to me personally it's not a person... but then we say "if we let it develop it will be" ... yes well.. we're not murdering it when it hasn't lived.. we just don't give it the chance to live.. and it's a difficult choice.. i also know a few people who have had abortions... not only is it a painful decision to make but it's also a painful process... you can't even get out of bed the next day... you can't do anything! i think it should be allowed for those rare cases when mistakes happen, and incest, and rape, and the father won't support or stuff like that... but to those women who have sex without a care and have abortions all the time.. f*ck em!

and besides... i know someone who gave birth and then put the baby up for adoption because she couldn't take care of it, but she didn't want to get rid of it... (by the time she found out she was pregnant she was already a month and a half late.. she thought it had developed too much.. and i agree with her) i think it should be an option... it shouldn't be the only one.. but it should still be an option.. and instead of saying "sex is bad" society should say "sex is bad.. but if you must please use condoms" ... but no.. society doesn't care... ugh!

Neve

12-09-2005, 05:13 PM

As to your point about 'underground' or, as I believe they used to be known, "Back Street" abortions: yes, it's valid. But should we legalise murder so people can kill their enemies safely?
The only way that that would be relevant is if you believed that murderers are good people and by making murder illegal we are harming them. The mothers of these children are nearly always good people and nearly always have a very good reason for wanting an abortion, such as rape or teenage pregnancy. If they really are desporate to have an abortion, then by forcing them to have underground (back street, or whatever other name you wish to call them) abortions, you are potentially putting their lives in danger. In my opinion, it is not doing justice to the victims of rape, who would be very traumatised, and would not want the burden of bringing up the child of a person who violated them in that way, to aliken them to murderers.

maximoose666

12-09-2005, 10:27 PM

The mothers of these children are nearly always good people and nearly always have a very good reason for wanting an abortion, such as rape or teenage pregnancy.
What?? I'm ninety-nine percent sure that the majority of abortions are neither conducted on rape victims nor pregnant teenagers. I'll go and check the statistics now, but your assertion seems to have no basis in fact whatsoever. As to being 'good people', whatever sympathy I have for the eleven-year old you mentioned unable to make difficult decisions is absent for your average thoughtless sixteen yar old, who didn't bother with contraception and now wants to avoid the responsibility that pregnancy brings. The fact that you'll have less time for your studies is not a valid reason for taking an unborn baby's life.

Shaehl

12-09-2005, 10:55 PM

What?? I'm ninety-nine percent sure that the majority of abortions are neither conducted on rape victims nor pregnant teenagers. I'll go and check the statistics now, but your assertion seems to have no basis in fact whatsoever. As to being 'good people', whatever sympathy I have for the eleven-year old you mentioned unable to make difficult decisions is absent for your average thoughtless sixteen yar old, who didn't bother with contraception and now wants to avoid the responsibility that pregnancy brings. The fact that you'll have less time for your studies is not a valid reason for taking an unborn baby's life.

My thoughts exactly. Teenage Pregnancy in itself is not a "good reason" for abortion. When a teenager becomes pregant, most of the time it is due to thoughtlessness, irresponsibility or simply because they don't care. None of those are good reasons for getting an abortion in my book.

_strangechild_

12-09-2005, 11:12 PM

FascionViktem5k

12-09-2005, 11:39 PM

i think most of the time the parents force them to have an abortion or the guy who got them pregnant leaves them... and doesn't accept the fact that it's his child... and he blames her for cheating.. that's usually the case... with teenagers... and with women who are raped i don't think they want a living reminder of what happened to them... but there are some women that even when raped they still go through with the pregnancy and they don't care.. they still love the child... even if it were a bastards... (take Law and Order:SVU for example.. one of the cops is a rape child... and her mom was a drunk but she still had her and loves her)

Zephyrite

12-09-2005, 11:51 PM

my stance: gov't shoudnt get invloved. Too private.

thief.13

12-10-2005, 12:47 PM

But that's why I wonder how so many teenagers can get abortions easily...
Do doctors permit it because they're teenagers or do they (the teens) just say they're not mentally stable to look after a kid and such?

the most common reason here is money.doctors don't really ask you how you feel (emotionally) about the unwanted kid.they just basically ask clinical questions, which means it's not their concern whether you're unstable or you can't have a kid because of your dreams and such.

Renji-sama

12-10-2005, 07:31 PM

this is a dangerous issue to debate over, but its something people will forever debate over. personally i think abortion should be alowed but only in special cases, for example, if raped, or if medical health is in danger. however i dont think it should be alowed ever after the first trimester. although then there is the other problem, if abortion isnt allowed there would be more unwanted children, more children will be abused, or starving because thier parents are too poor, or dont care for them. teenage pregnancy is a problem because some poeple are so willing to not use protection, even if you drill it into thier heads what the consequenses are. mind you i had a baby when i was 17, but i used the 3rd option with people tend to overlook, adoption. there are lots of families that cant have children who would love to adopt one, so if its an unwanted baby have the child adopted instead. thats just my opinion on it