Religion [Archive] - Club Bleach

Zero

02-26-2005, 08:55 PM

Heinz, you're really starting to push-it.

Soul-abortion, you're giving off an image of someone really ignorant. Can you back-up your claims?

Night

Religion is a must, because people simply need an explanation for why they're alive. It's not religion's fault that people are narrow minded foolz who cant get together because of various ideas on the topic of religion.

The point is, religion causes it. That's like the horrible saying, guns don't kill people. People kill people. Do we really need an almighty being hovering over us, and taking care of us? I didn't have that and I think I turned out all right.

I'm mostly christian, but i dont sign to any particular group. I think instead that the entire reason for multiple religions, is part of god's plan to capture as many people as he can, because not everybody will be attracted by the same types of ideas and people. By breaking off multiple religions with the same basic idea: Believe and build a relationship with god, asking forgiveness and praying~ All christian religions vary, but one thing they seem to share in common is the desire to build some kind of relationship with god. That's my opinion and belief on the whole matter at least~

Are you just talking about chrianity, protestant, catholic, etc. Or are you talking about every single religion, every single god, deity, etc. ?

The former I'd agree with, because all of those are based on the same thing. It's just different views on it. The latter, I'm not quite sure about that though.

nighthawksw

02-26-2005, 11:48 PM

geh, christianity in general >_< not any spacific branch of christianity, but all of them. Does that make sense? So yeah, one god religions i suppose.

Ennoozunu

02-27-2005, 01:01 AM

heinzbitte I've warned you enough times.
Your banned for 1 week.
After that week if I have to delete another of your posts again it will be A permanant Ban.

ramenkage

02-27-2005, 01:10 AM

Zero

02-27-2005, 01:17 AM

religion itself seems pure enough
i think my issue is more on the institution
the papacy has proven itself more than once to be corrupt
various popes from time to time use their power for their own benifits
im not just attacking the catholic church, many people use religion to manipulate sheepish believers
as i said before, religion serves for moral teaching. if the government already set laws which acts as moral standards, why should religion exist?

You sound like being protestant will be good for you.

As for why religion exist, it gives a sense of community. It lets you have something that the goverment can never give. Complete security. Knowing that you'll be safe. And if you do die, you'll be going to a better place. If anyone nears you die, they're going to a better place. Being a devote christan gives you all of this, peace of mind.

One of the main actractions to religion is this, what happens when people die? Is it just the end? Never feeling anything again, never knowing anything again, never seeing your friends or family ever again... Never being again.. No more kisses, no more hugs. Just a cold, dark slumber.

Scary isn't it?

ramenkage

02-27-2005, 02:30 AM

You sound like being protestant will be good for you.
interesting...im actually buddhist

As for why religion exist, it gives a sense of community. It lets you have something that the goverment can never give. Complete security. Knowing that you'll be safe. And if you do die, you'll be going to a better place. If anyone nears you die, they're going to a better place. Being a devote christan gives you all of this, peace of mind.
One of the main actractions to religion is this, what happens when people die? Is it just the end? Never feeling anything again, never knowing anything again, never seeing your friends or family ever again... Never being again.. No more kisses, no more hugs. Just a cold, dark slumber.

personally, religion seems like a weak persons exuse to live on. they cannot control their current life and thus rely on doing good deeds to thrive in the afterlife. in general i see the concept of afterlife as being a false promise and those who dedicate their lives for religion are not selfless but rather selfish. of course there are exceptions such as humanitarians.its not a bad thing to help others, but people shouldnt be portrayed as selfless saints when all they are doing is looking out for themselves in the afterlife
my theory is that if people assume that there is nothing after death, then they will live life to the fullest =/

Zero

02-27-2005, 03:26 AM

interesting...im actually buddhist

lol, I thought you were catholic or something. I'm budhist too. Protestant is the same thing as christianity but doesn't beleive in things like the pope.

personally, religion seems like a weak persons exuse to live on. they cannot control their current life and thus rely on doing good deeds to thrive in the afterlife. in general i see the concept of afterlife as being a false promise and those who dedicate their lives for religion are not selfless but rather selfish. of course there are exceptions such as humanitarians.its not a bad thing to help others, but people shouldnt be portrayed as selfless saints when all they are doing is looking out for themselves in the afterlife
my theory is that if people assume that there is nothing after death, then they will live life to the fullest =/

It's not just that, it's also knowing that there's a being greater then anything you can imagine protecting over you. When you feel lonely it is their. When you feel sad, it is their. When you are at your wits end. It is their.

It's an aura of protection and love that's always there when you need it.

ramenkage

02-27-2005, 04:56 PM

religion limits the mind. it sets boundry to where the thoughts can and cannot go. same thing with morals. take ancient china for example. because of there customs and beliefs, they were unable to advance for nearly half a century. and in europe because they broke away from religion (reformation) europeans were able to advance in science and mathimatics

-rogue-

02-27-2005, 10:26 PM

::MY RELIGION::
I'm mostly christian, but i dont sign to any particular group. I think instead that the entire reason for multiple religions, is part of god's plan to capture as many people as he can, because not everybody will be attracted by the same types of ideas and people. By breaking off multiple religions with the same basic idea: Believe and build a relationship with god, asking forgiveness and praying~ All christian religions vary, but one thing they seem to share in common is the desire to build some kind of relationship with god. That's my opinion and belief on the whole matter at least~

The only problem with that statement is that Christianity goes completely against having multiple religions. The Bible says that Jesus is the only way to Heaven so it wouldnt make sense for God to govern all religions because then that would mean God lied which if you are a Christian is not possible.

Should religion exist? No, it has also killed hundred thousands(maybe millions?) of people. (Due to Holy wars, Sacrifices for Gods, etc.)

Except the reasons why those wars exist are because the Government did it in the name of religion.

personally, religion seems like a weak persons exuse to live on. they cannot control their current life and thus rely on doing good deeds to thrive in the afterlife.

If you're talking about Christianity that would be a wrong statement as it's salvation by grace and not by works. how "good" of a person you are has nothing to do with if you're going to get to heaven.

in general i see the concept of afterlife as being a false promise and those who dedicate their lives for religion are not selfless but rather selfish. of course there are exceptions such as humanitarians.

How is dedicating a life to religion selfish? For Christianity it's selfless. People have this common view that the only point in Christianity is to better yourself. But the purpose for a Christian is to try to glorify God in all that we do.

its not a bad thing to help others, but people shouldnt be portrayed as selfless saints when all they are doing is looking out for themselves in the afterlife
my theory is that if people assume that there is nothing after death, then they will live life to the fullest =/
Saints are a mainly Catholic but still the reason for their being a saint is that they werent looking after themselves. St. Patrick for example is a saint because he brought Presbyterian Christianity back to his home country and he brought it back for the people who lived there not to bring glory for himself.
To think that there is complete emptyness after death? I think that is so much worse, I would think, how sad of a life someone must lead.

and in europe because they broke away from religion (reformation) europeans were able to advance in science and mathimatics

LOL what I like about this is that the Reformation period was when they broke away from the Catholic church to start the Protestant Christianity. As well as the whole Queen Bloody Mary Tudor and Queen Elizabeth and the reigns of those times all dealt with religion and whether things should be Catholic or Protestant.

Ennoozunu

02-27-2005, 10:33 PM

my theory is that if people assume that there is nothing after death, then they will live life to the fullest =/
If there is no life after death then what is the sense in living at all?
Your theory is backwords IMO.
If you know there is life after death then what ever you do in life has meaning and has impact on a greater future.
If there is no life after death everything you do while living is meanless and a waste of time.
So if we follow your theory that there is no life after death then everyone might as well be dead because anything we do /learn will not matter in the end.

Personally I believe that there is life after death and the reason we are here is do complete a goal(it doesn't have to be get rich or own the world. It would be more like learn how to care about other people/ learn how to let lose etc.).

ramenkage

02-27-2005, 11:36 PM

If there is no life after death then what is the sense in living at all?
so you live to live again? you live life as it comes. you live to live.

Your theory is backwords IMO.
If you know there is life after death then what ever you do in life has meaning and has impact on a greater future.
If there is no life after death everything you do while living is meanless and a waste of time.your actions still affects the world after you die. the greatest minds live to contribute to the next generation and the generation after them.

So if we follow your theory that there is no life after death then everyone might as well be dead because anything we do /learn will not matter in the end.
you can call it a theory if you so wish. but no afterlife makes more sence. what you do and what you learn affect those that come after you.

Personally I believe that there is life after death and the reason we are here is do complete a goal(it doesn't have to be get rich or own the world. It would be more like learn how to care about other people/ learn how to let lose etc.).
how do you explain the kids that die right after birth? did they complete their goals? did they learn to care for others and let lose?

If you're talking about Christianity that would be a wrong statement as it's salvation by grace and not by works. how "good" of a person you are has nothing to do with if you're going to get to heaven.
you cant generalize about chrisitianity because it is so vast. i believe the catholic church does say that good work leads to slavation. the puritan believe in predesitination. im basing my statement on european history, so of course the church may have changed.

How is dedicating a life to religion selfish? For Christianity it's selfless. People have this common view that the only point in Christianity is to better yourself. But the purpose for a Christian is to try to glorify God in all that we do.
its selfish because they only seek for their own salvation

Saints are a mainly Catholic but still the reason for their being a saint is that they werent looking after themselves. St. Patrick for example is a saint because he brought Presbyterian Christianity back to his home country and he brought it back for the people who lived there not to bring glory for himself.
To think that there is complete emptyness after death? I think that is so much worse, I would think, how sad of a life someone must lead. can you say that he wasnt lookingafter his own slavation?

LOL what I like about this is that the Reformation period was when they broke away from the Catholic church to start the Protestant Christianity. As well as the whole Queen Bloody Mary Tudor and Queen Elizabeth and the reigns of those times all dealt with religion and whether things should be Catholic or Protestant.
umm im referring to the reformation leading to the enlightenment...no scienctific achievement was reached right during the reformation. it was when they completely ignored the teaching of the churches that scienctist are able to discover the truth

Schoulayer

02-27-2005, 11:56 PM

*Should* religion exist? I personally don't attend any sort of organized religion.

There are many different kinds of people, and many different religions. Some people find a religion speaks to them, and if thats what they need to get through a tough time - by all means. Nobody has a right to tell them their religion should not exist, some people *need* that.

That being said I'm more of an agnostic myself. I believe there is existance after death - but not like most religions portray.

Chih1ro

02-28-2005, 12:02 AM

I'm against religion. It made sense back then when there were no scientific explanations of things. But now that there is, many religious stories about the origin of the universe/Earth sounds like fairy tales. Yeah, its interesting and would be pretty neat, but there have been 0 evidence to support any of it. I'm a man of science.

I have MANY extreme opinions about why religion is bad, but since this is a public board I'm going to keep it to myself.

However I do believe that people can believe whatever they want, as long as they don't try forcing it on other people.

Jedimuse

02-28-2005, 12:39 AM

Yeah, its interesting and would be pretty neat, but there have been 0 evidence to support any of it.
i also believe that without scientific proof, there's no reason to believe in anything written in the bible for example. but i've also read about findings proving certain tales in the bible with scientific data, real data. though not everything in the bible can be proven, u just can't discard it all.

Also these religious writings are literature and like every literature there are exaggerations due to the use of metaphors and similes. For example in genesis where the world was created in 7 days. But days is a unit of time created by man later on, so the days used in this text doesn't necesarily mean our definition of day, but perhaps what a "day is to god". to him maybe a day is like a million of our years. the point is that the writers had poetic license to say what they wanted.

Flamealchemist

02-28-2005, 12:49 AM

the point is that the writers had poetic license to say what they wanted.

And thats exactly why just believing in religion and discariding science like Many people do is wrong. Yes they can believe in what they want but some people I have talked to before that are very religious get mad at me because I believe only in science. So as I try to explain to them why i believe in science and not in anything a religion tries to sell they just dont listen and say its stupid.

But then again I am sorry to say this if I insult anyone here that is very religious, but you people (religious ones) just cant seem to form your own opinions. You just believe right away some book written by someone you dont know thousands of years ago. Of course then you say science is wrong which has many facts to prove its theories (It wouldnt be called Theory if it was supported by anything) But religion just says "God Created Humans!" and you are expected to believe it and live by what they said. But yeah you cna believe in what you want. Like Chih1ro said, as long as you dont try to force it onto other people. But then thats what missionaries do. They are worse than those telemarketers.

-rogue-

02-28-2005, 01:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rouge
If you're talking about Christianity that would be a wrong statement as it's salvation by grace and not by works. how "good" of a person you are has nothing to do with if you're going to get to heaven.

you cant generalize about chrisitianity because it is so vast. i believe the catholic church does say that good work leads to slavation. the puritan believe in predesitination. im basing my statement on european history, so of course the church may have changed.

It may be vast but it is understanable, the answers to Christianity are in the Bible. You are thinking of the Roman Catholic Church and most of the Catholics I know arent apart of it. RC's do believe in salvation by works. The Bible, however says in Ephesians 2:8-9 "8)For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9)not by works, so that no one can boast." It's not just puritans who believe in predestination and it's a debatable subject, however the view of predestination does not determine your salvation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rouge
How is dedicating a life to religion selfish? For Christianity it's selfless. People have this common view that the only point in Christianity is to better yourself. But the purpose for a Christian is to try to glorify God in all that we do.

its selfish because they only seek for their own salvation

no, you see it's not selfish. To be able to say that I am sinner and that I can not save myself and that i am dependent on God and the Lord Jesus Christ for my salvation is not selfish but instead humbling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rouge
Saints are a mainly Catholic but still the reason for their being a saint is that they werent looking after themselves. St. Patrick for example is a saint because he brought Presbyterian Christianity back to his home country and he brought it back for the people who lived there not to bring glory for himself.
To think that there is complete emptyness after death? I think that is so much worse, I would think, how sad of a life someone must lead.
can you say that he wasnt lookingafter his own slavation?
It is not my job to know what his purpose was. However why would he after being taken by Irish raiders and finally get back home and bring a religion that he thought was false. and he would have to think it were false because if he thought he was to be saved by that work then he didnt know what he was doing. which i find doubtful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rouge
LOL what I like about this is that the Reformation period was when they broke away from the Catholic church to start the Protestant Christianity. As well as the whole Queen Bloody Mary Tudor and Queen Elizabeth and the reigns of those times all dealt with religion and whether things should be Catholic or Protestant.

umm im referring to the reformation leading to the enlightenment...no scienctific achievement was reached right during the reformation. it was when they completely ignored the teaching of the churches that scienctist are able to discover the truth

I dont know if that can be a valid argument because scientists such as Sir Isaac Newton who was a Christian was a prevalent mathematician and scientist during the age of reformation. There was a lot of science and mathematics in the reformation. Founders of botany and oceanography and more were all important in the reformation and they were both Christians. Even Kelvin came up with the temperature system during the reformation.

Yeah, its interesting and would be pretty neat, but there have been 0 evidence to support any of it. I'm a man of science.
What about the Dead Sea Scrolls? They compared whole books of the Bible and one of the ones with the most significant mistakes had 2 mistakes. 1) was a word they couldnt make out on the scrolls and 2) was they werent sure if "light" was translated correctly. but besides that, it was translated correctly and almost word for word.

the point is that the writers had poetic license to say what they wanted.

Except the point of it being the Bible is that there really isnt creative liscense. the books of the Bible are God's inspired word. So the writers couldnt just say whatever they wanted. If the Bible is what is says it is, then God wouldnt have chosen writers who would write false testimonies.

But then again I am sorry to say this if I insult anyone here that is very religious, but you people (religious ones) just cant seem to form your own opinions. You just believe right away some book written by someone you dont know thousands of years ago. Of course then you say science is wrong which has many facts to prove its theories (It wouldnt be called Theory if it was supported by anything) But religion just says "God Created Humans!" and you are expected to believe it and live by what they said. But yeah you cna believe in what you want. Like Chih1ro said, as long as you dont try to force it onto other people. But then thats what missionaries do. They are worse than those telemarketers.

As for just believeing in some book, it's not just some book and we believe in it because we have faith that it is true. Oh and i forgot that all evolutionists who have read his volumes knew him personally...
A) Many of the famous scientists are Christian so to say that we say it's wrong is a lie. God is the author of the world and he created all things in it even science.
B) If it's a theory, yeah it has some support however it does not have enough facts or evidence behind it for it to be said to be a law.
Missionaries can not force anyone to believe anything. Missionaries however are doing what they should by spreading the gospel. Even if no one believes them they are still called to do it.

Oh and sidenote my name is -ROGUE- not rouge

ramenkage

02-28-2005, 01:41 AM

no, you see it's not selfish. To be able to say that I am sinner and that I can not save myself and that i am dependent on God and the Lord Jesus Christ for my salvation is not selfish but instead humbling.can you explain this dependent on god and jesus thing. if i was a murderer, is it not my actions that would cast me to hell?

It is not my job to know what his purpose was. However why would he after being taken by Irish raiders and finally get back home and bring a religion that he thought was false. and he would have to think it were false because if he thought he was to be saved by that work then he didnt know what he was doing. which i find doubtful.
im not doubting his faith in religion. im doubting his selflessness.

I dont know if that can be a valid argument because scientists such as Sir Isaac Newton who was a Christian was a prevalent mathematician and scientist during the age of reformation. There was a lot of science and mathematics in the reformation. Founders of botany and oceanography and more were all important in the reformation and they were both Christians. Even Kelvin came up with the temperature system during the reformation.if im not mistaken, reformation is in the 1500s newton was 1600s. secondly, newton disregarded the teachings of the church. he believed in a god, but not necessarily the one they refer to. the enlightenment introduced deism, the belief in a non intervining god, which is a big change from institutionalized religion. voltaire and many others believe in deism.

Ennoozunu

02-28-2005, 07:16 PM

Zero

02-28-2005, 08:19 PM

Why would you care about bettering a world if there is nothing else left for you after your dead. If this is the case the world is just a death sentence in a meanless void.
The world would be pointless if there is no life after death(which is why we all might as well be dead if we use your theory).

So, if there was not a life after death you'd just go around killing people and causing hell for no reason? Life for me is just to enjoy it as much as you can. If you die, you die. If you live you live. Live every moment as if it was your last, because you really can die at any moment. Even right now as you sit there reading this, there could be a blood clot in your brain and you'll die.

Also I believe when people die like babies or something they die to set an example to the world.
They were put here to impact someone and help them learn what they are here for.
It may seem like a terrible thing to do but is it really so terrible if there is life after death and you could come back again later?
Bad things happen to make impresstions on everyone and everything.

Set an example? Do you mean God just helps a few people, and doesn't care about other people? Some God...

I doubt most things set an impression on everyone and everything...

Ennoozunu

02-28-2005, 09:48 PM

Set an example? Do you mean God just helps a few people, and doesn't care about other people? Some God...

I doubt most things set an impression on everyone and everything...

I never said that.
I said people die for a reason.
If a baby dies(I use a baby dying as an example it could be anyone any age) it might have possibly died to influence someone somewhere(or a bunch of people).
The baby came into the world with that one goal and once its done it will come back again with differint goals(more longterm hopfully).
Sometimes maybe people just die because of the influence of evil(which might be out of gods control sometimes).

I'm sure when you are on the other side you have a choice if you want to do that goal or not. It could be like a big network where we all help each other(and this could be one way).

You act like dying is a big deal.
If my theory is correct or even partly correct then dying is just a small thing that happens when you transfer over to the other side to do whatever and possibly come back as a differint person. Its in no means a big deal as you never truly die.

Also remember if you follow the bible or anything like that god is not the only force at work. SOme deaths could easily be work of an evil force that god may not have had control over.

Remeber this is all just theory I agree with you on the live life for what it is.
My main point is its not possible for there to be no afterlife. The rest is me expanding on the idea of there being an after life(hence the rest after there being a afterlife is just a theory I have).

Theres life after death because in order for life to have meaning there must be afterlife(or else we go back to this world just being a meaningless void again. etc.).

Also no I would not go killing anyone or doing anything differint if I thought there was no afterlife Im just trying to use examples to prove my point of there having to be a afterlife.

Zero

03-01-2005, 02:19 AM

I never said that.
I said people die for a reason.
If a baby dies(I use a baby dying as an example it could be anyone any age) it might have possibly died to influence someone somewhere(or a bunch of people).
The baby came into the world with that one goal and once its done it will come back again with differint goals(more longterm hopfully).
Sometimes maybe people just die because of the influence of evil(which might be out of gods control sometimes).

So are you saying that everyone comes to this world with a goal? Are you saying we have no freewill, and that we're just here to accomplish this goal? Everything we feel, every sentiment, it isn't true. But are just there so we can accomplish this goal?
I'm sure when you are on the other side you have a choice if you want to do that goal or not. It could be like a big network where we all help each other(and this could be one way).

Where do you get this certainty from?

You act like dying is a big deal.
If my theory is correct or even partly correct then dying is just a small thing that happens when you transfer over to the other side to do whatever and possibly come back as a differint person. Its in no means a big deal as you never truly die.

Define dieing. I consider dieing as not being yourself anymore. Like say your childhood friend became a sick murderer, that friend to me has died. If what you say is true, then we just get recycled but die anyways.

Also remember if you follow the bible or anything like that god is not the only force at work. SOme deaths could easily be work of an evil force that god may not have had control over.

What other forces are there? And by that, I mean that God can not intervene in.

Remeber this is all just theory I agree with you on the live life for what it is.
My main point is its not possible for there to be no afterlife. The rest is me expanding on the idea of there being an after life(hence the rest after there being a afterlife is just a theory I have).

Theres life after death because in order for life to have meaning there must be afterlife(or else we go back to this world just being a meaningless void again. etc.).

So you're saying that there must be an afterlife because otherwise, it'd be pointless? What's wrong with something being pointless. Everything does not need reason.

Also no I would not go killing anyone or doing anything differint if I thought there was no afterlife Im just trying to use examples to prove my point of there having to be a afterlife.

There, I think you can understand the answer to your question:

"Why would you care about bettering a world if there is nothing else left for you after your dead."

We care because we arn't(for the most of us) monsters. We would better the world for everyone after us. We would be doing it for everybody, and helping them. Even if there is no life after death, this is what true selflessness is all about.

ramenkage

03-01-2005, 02:46 AM

props to zero, i think you said everything i wanted to and more
can anyone prove that an afterlife exist?
no substantial proof is needed, thats impossible to get at least at my level
but just you thoughts, i would like to hear them
and can you elaborate on the life is meaningless without an afterlife. if an afterlife is anything like the heaven that is described than thats miserble. not dying is boring.

Ennoozunu

03-01-2005, 04:42 AM

So are you saying that everyone comes to this world with a goal? Are you saying we have no freewill, and that we're just here to accomplish this goal? Everything we feel, every sentiment, it isn't true. But are just there so we can accomplish this goal?

I'm saying everyone who comes into this world has chosen a goal for them to achieve. I never said they had to achieve it.
You could just as easily not achieve your goal but bring other things out of life. You will just come back again with the same goal or a differint goal if you desire.(This is all just theory of corse. I'm trying to show what the afterlife MIGHT be like. I'm saying it to try and prove my point a bit more. I really have no idea what the afterlife is like. It could be like that but who knows I'm not gonna guess my whole life all I know is that there is an afterlife.)

Where do you get this certainty from?

From the fact that we are alive right now.
Its a belif thing. Either you believe it or you don't.
Nothing anyone says will change what you think.

Define dieing. I consider dieing as not being yourself anymore. Like say your childhood friend became a sick murderer, that friend to me has died. If what you say is true, then we just get recycled but die anyways.

When I say dieing I mean ceasing to exisit anywhere.
Also if you friend becomes a murder then in a sense he has died because hes going to go to hell(if thats what you religion says).

What other forces are there? And by that, I mean that God can not intervene in.\

Have you never heard of good vs. evil?
There are always going to be evil people in the word that god can't control.
Depending on your religion the battle between good and evil rage on forever.

So you're saying that there must be an afterlife because otherwise, it'd be pointless? What's wrong with something being pointless. Everything does not need reason.

While if something is pointless(has no meaning and is not needed) then there is nothing worth while that person can do to change anything since it won't exisit once the person is dead.
So life is worthless if there is no afterlife because it wouldn't be achieveing anything except to continue on other meaningless lifes.
Thats why there has to be an afterlife.

There, I think you can understand the answer to your question:

"Why would you care about bettering a world if there is nothing else left for you after your dead."

We care because we arn't(for the most of us) monsters. We would better the world for everyone after us. We would be doing it for everybody, and helping them. Even if there is no life after death, this is what true selflessness is all about.
Why so people would be able to live more meaningless lives that will soon be forgotten with their death?

If there is no afterlife then there is nothing for you to live for.
Once you die all your memories would just disappear and everything you did and learnt would be gone and heck you would be gone. All the funtimes and experiences you had would be a waste. I mean sure you will be remembered on earth but you won't be able to remember it if there is no afterlife(making life once again a meaningless(meaning has no purpose) loop.).
There would be no thinking, you wouldn't be able to even think that it sucks because you wouldn't be there to think it.

Someone or something(god) had to create this universe and the universe would not be created unless there is a purpose for it. Also if someone crated the universe then there has to be another place where this god(insert whatever name you feel like here I just used god as an example) exisits in(like the actual body/soul or whatever exisits in) and that is where we go after we die(as we call it) in this universe.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not crazy and I certainly would still contribute to society even if there wasn't an afterlife(but there is I'm sure of it). I'm just going to the extremes to try and shed some light on why there has to be an afterlife.

I won't try explain it any further because its really just if you believe or not at this point. I personally thought all options through and I came to the conclusion that there is an afterlife(just as I am sure there is a god that created the nothing(a space for nothing to thrive in) that was unstable and reacted to create the universe. I'm not sure what kind of god that is and I won't guess at it. all I know is that there is a god).

P.S.: If there are spelling errors or gramatical errors its because its 1AM and I'm tired! :)

Zero

03-01-2005, 06:37 AM

I'm saying everyone who comes into this world has chosen a goal for them to achieve. I never said they had to achieve it.
You could just as easily not achieve your goal but bring other things out of life. You will just come back again with the same goal or a differint goal if you desire.(This is all just theory of corse. I'm trying to show what the afterlife MIGHT be like. I'm saying it to try and prove my point a bit more. I really have no idea what the afterlife is like. It could be like that but who knows I'm not gonna guess my whole life all I know is that there is an afterlife.)

Why, what's the point? To me this all seems so pointless to try to achieve a goal when your dead, just to come back here. What's funny is you don't even know what your goal is, so how are you suppose to achieve it?

From the fact that we are alive right now.
Its a belif thing. Either you believe it or you don't.
Nothing anyone says will change what you think.

People can change how other people think, if the arguement is good enough. If the other person will even accept what the other person has to say, then they can be convinced. Convince me.

When I say dieing I mean seizing to exisit anywhere.
Also if you friend becomes a murder then in a sense he has died because hes going to go to hell(if thats what you religion says).

Seizing to exist? Seizing means grab... I think you're reffering to ceasing.
Fine I'll give you another example, what if your friend suffered a trauma and now has a different personality. The person you knew is no more, is that person dead? Your theorie of being recycled over and over again tends to imply that we'll be born, over and over again. In this case, won't who we are change as well? It's fine and dandy that I'm still alive, but I'm not the same person anymore. So I'm metaphysically dead.

Have you never heard of good vs. evil?
There are always going to be evil people in the word that god can't control.
Depending on your religion the battle between good and evil rage on forever.

What's your take on good vs evil? If your recycling theory holds true, then won't these people have a goal to accomplish, what if there goal is to do this 'evil' deed? Will they get sent to hell?

It's good that you acknowlegde that God can't control everything. I've seen some misinformed people say, "Oh God is almighty blah blah blah, he can see the future blah blah blah, he can see all, be all blah blah" When the Bible itself(for the christians) implies that God does not know everything, like when he checked on the Earth again during the Noah's ark story.. (Sorry, it's been a few years since I read it, I don't remember exactly what it pages, etc. etc) If he knew all, and saw all, why was he surprised that there was such much bad in it?

While if something is pointless(has no meaning and is not needed) then there is nothing worth while that person can do to change anything since it won't exisit once the person is dead.
So life is worthless if there is no afterlife because it wouldn't be achieveing anything except to continue on other meaningless lifes.
Thats why there has to be an afterlife.

There has to be an afterlife because all we do is keep our species alive? I still don't see your logic. Does it just scare you that when we die, nothing will be there to embrace us but a dark slumber?

What's wrong with something being pointless, is that impossible; that our lives are meaningless after we die? Which isn't completely true either, because what we do now will affect all future generations that will come.

Why so people would be able to live more meaningless lives that will soon be forgotten with their death?

Yes, beleive it or not; I would let people live their meaningless lives rather then let them never exist so they wouldn't be able to live at alll. I choose to help make this world better, so they can live their lives without means easily. Is that really that hard to understand? Can't we just help them, even if out lives are meaningless after we die?

If there is no afterlife then there is nothing for you to live for.
Once you die all your memories would just disappear and everything you did and learnt would be gone and heck you would be gone. All the funtimes and experiences you had would be a waste. I mean sure you will be remembered on earth but you won't be able to remember it if there is no afterlife(making life once again a meaningless(meaning has no purpose) loop.).
There would be no thinking, you wouldn't be able to even think that it sucks because you wouldn't be there to think it.

Yes, scary isn't it? Is this what compels you to beleive there is a life after death, Fear? If your actions are governed by this, you can not truly do a selfless act. All your actions are so you will be able to live after you die. This can not be true selflessness

"Having, exhibiting, or motivated by no concern for oneself"

Someone or something(god) had to create this universe and the universe would not be created unless there is a purpose for it. Also if someone crated the universe then there has to be another place where this god(insert whatever name you feel like here I just used god as an example) exisits in(like the actual body/soul or whatever exisits in) and that is where we go after we die(as we call it) in this universe.

What purpose can it possibly serve other then His amusement? I'm sorry if that sounds a little crazy, but I can't see what it's purpose is.. I read a book some while ago, forget the title, but it depicted the universe as a battle ground for God and the Devil. o_o;;

Can you propose a better reason for the universe existence?

Though I can agree with you on something, the universe does appear to be planned. It is perfect the way it is constructed, so very complex with all of the forces, counter forces.. Everything works together to keep everything in balance. If one of these things don't exist the universe could have very well been destroyed billions of years ago. And we've just started to understand how some things, albeit a very small fraction. work. We don't even know what most of the forces fonctions are, we know of some forces how they work, and everything. But we don't know why they work.

So much to say about this subject, but if I were to continue, I wouldn't be able to reply to your other arguements.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not crazy and I certainly would still contribute to society even if there wasn't an afterlife(but there is I'm sure of it). I'm just going to the extremes to try and shed some light on why there has to be an afterlife.

I won't try explain it any further because its really just if you believe or not at this point. I personally thought all options through and I came to the conclusion that there is an afterlife(just as I am sure there is a god that created the nothing(a space for nothing to thrive in) that was unstable and reacted to create the universe. I'm not sure what kind of god that is and I won't guess at it. all I know is that there is a god).

I never thought you were crazy, just heartless. :face82:
Can you simplify your examples, in a way that won't be too 'extreme'?

And that is one of the best ways to make a decision. I'm curious, what religion do you follow?

P.S.: If there are spelling errors or gramatical errors its because its 1AM and I'm tired! :)
It's 2:36am here right now. Please forgive me if I made any errors, or if I sounded harsh, or cold..

narratorxx

03-01-2005, 07:47 AM

to tell you the truth i've been avoiding this thread, because often times "debates" or "discussions" on religion goes in circles...no one gives...this topic and abortion, no one will budge on...but i'll chime in anyway...

as to the fear thing--what's more scarier, that after death there's nothing, you cease to exist...or that there's a chance you could go to hell for the smallest infraction...i mean if that's the case, the main bulk of people in heaven would be white, since most of the world isn't christian, not till recently...i mean i'm not baptized, but i do fairly good deeds, volunteering etc, i haven't committed any major sins--i'm not in jail or suffering from any major guilt--but i'll still be going to hell since i'm not baptized...except for mormonism, in that religion, i'd be in a holding dimension/plane, or whatever-- till i convert there or till my ascendents get baptized...but in most cases, i'm considered a heathen, for others i'm something to be pitied...

for me, i'd rather die coming to nothing, than go to hell for something stupid...

Ennoozunu-- ya seem to mix several sects of christianity: from catholicism to protestantism (not just protestant--the religion, but anything besides catholicism)

um, for the most part i think Enn is agnostic...but the biggest hole in the theory thing, which is based on monotheism, is the whole recylcing thing--which takes from Eastern thought...also the goal thing in life is counter to monotheistic religions (except for those who believe in predestination, and even then the "achieving the goal" part can be neglected, cause in predestination--you're gonna achieve it no matter what you do)...also the goal thing is more eastern thought, than anything...

but i'm sorry, Enn, you probably don't know about this...but most of the key points in your theory/thoughts are shared by a cult out in the Bay Area in California. which i guess isn't really a bad thing, since most religions can be said to start out as cults...

i hope i'm not being harsh or anything...but it seems your desparate for their to be a heaven...to give your life meaning

insignifance is a nightmare

proof that life can be meaningful without religion, a hell, or a heaven is that millions of people, just across the US, don't believe in a god, or an afterlife, live life fine (relatively fine, i mean there's poverty, violence, etc)...while there are those who believe in god and an afterlife, who still lead miserable lives despite that fact--people in the ghetto, the projects, etc, hustlers, rappers, yada yada...who devoutly believe in god, but still do the things they do, or at least they shout often and loud enough...

i think the main reason people want there to be a god or an afterlife, is because they still believe that childhood mantra "you're special"..."you're a light in the world"...which is kinda ludicrous, what's the point of being told you're special if everybody is special...it wouldn't matter if you're special or not...

often times, the bible, the idea of god...seems more like a bedtime story than anything...god is a mixture of the boogeyman--be good or else...or he's the fairy godmother...well fairy godfather, in this case

which leads into what i want to talk about:

just wanted to try posing another theory. religion as a mechanism for social control...

if you read the bible as a text...as a literary text, not a religious text...for the most part, it is a way to set up a patriachal society--which really, can't be denied...

also if all these writers, prophets/apostles, etc...were spoken to by God, how come there are discrepencies/conflicts/contradictions (mind you i haven't read the bible myself, but i hear it often from former devout believers)...which can mean several things: one God is fallible, which can't be, right? Or two--these writers lost the message (remember that phone game, where you tell a person one thing, than they pass it on--the message gets mucked, lost, filtered in some way)--which means you can't really believe in the bible. Or three, there isn't really a god, and that the bible was once a belief structure, but warped into social control.

some more thoughts:
in the east--many religions were either eliminated (such as christianity), or propped up as the state religion (buddhism or other philosphies) by the leaders (emperors, kings etc) in order to keep their dominance over the people...

in the west, it was christianity that was the mechanism...towards the fall of the Roman empire, it depended heavily on christianity to govern their vast territories. Constantine declared it a state religion, and was lauded for it--he ruled the eastern half, and since the western half was coming to an end...the germanic tribes were taking over, making themselves king by working with popes and their own baptism (sorry there's so much, so i can't explain everything and it's been a while since these history classes, but the laws in germanic tribes was so nobody could become a king or whatever, but with christianity, god changed many of their laws, allowing many to become king--if they played by the rules)

basically monoarchies existed because of christianity, and then soon vice versa...

it exists even today, but under different veils (not monoarchy)...if people obey/believe in the bible, then they'll be easier to govern...also Bush wants to pull most social programs and make those programs rely on (guess what religion) --christian lead programs...

ramenkage

03-01-2005, 01:42 PM

for the most part i agree, but here are some points like like to discuss
i think the main reason people want there to be a god or an afterlife, is because they still believe that childhood mantra "you're special"..."you're a light in the world"...which is kinda ludicrous, what's the point of being told you're special if everybody is special...it wouldn't matter if you're special or not...
i dont believe in an afterlife, but i believe that im "special" and that my actions will influence the world. i dont believe that everyone else is special, thats mean, but its the truth. many who dont believe in god or an afterlife end up doing great things.

basically monoarchies existed because of christianity, and then soon vice versa...ill like to add to this, constantine converted to christinity to reinstate the "one king, one god" idea.

Ennoozunu

03-01-2005, 04:09 PM

narratorxx is right its just going to go in circles.

So I'll just leave it where its at :)

BTW I don't believe in one religion.
I take parts from other religions that seem to me to sound right and just put it all together(Infact thats how most religions are formed by taking parts of others). I do personally believe in a god just not the way any whole religion explains it.

My final statment for this topic is that I'm sure there is an afterlife. I don't know for sure what it is but I know there is one.

If anyone is wondering The "we are here for a goal" thing is actually written by a christian. Sylvia Brown(Who is christian) wrote a ton of books on why we are here , how to find out our goals and that we may not accomplish our goals(also she explains alot about the afterlife).

I havn't read Sylvia Brown tho(I came up with my theory mostly on my own but hearing about Sylvia Browns books did influence my theory a bit) but I think if anyone wants to fill in gaps in my theory that her books might be a good read.

EDIT:
I'll add one thing to my goal theory tho.
The goals you come here to learn could possibly be for something else in the other world. Once you feel you've learnt all you need you won't have to come back. When I say goal I mean its more of a guideline.You either accomplish it by chance or you don't accomplish it at all. Also I believe people have way more then just 1 goal in life.
Who knows for sure tho.
Its better to just live out your life and find out when the time comes :)

ramenkage

03-02-2005, 01:38 AM

since we cant solve this problem lets discuss, not debate the differences between easter and western religions

=~brAnDoN-kAorU~=

03-02-2005, 04:45 AM

Well....why don't you start first?

Mith2520000

03-02-2005, 09:17 AM

Looks like I am the only Muslim here. Anyway, Koran has stated that the basis for all living things is water and guess what? Scientists finds out that the primodial soup, the first sea on Earth, is the basis of all living creatures. Also, the Koran proves that Earth was never the center of the universe but we feel that we are special and also the movement of the planets around the sun in its own orbit.

:redbiggri

kivol

03-03-2005, 04:01 AM

this i think is a hard question i personally don't believe in the hole god thing. i like science over fictional stuff that can't be proven. and when they say like the bible this the bible that. haha some of the translations say that one must marry ones rapist. one must marry her husbands brother if ones husbands dies.(*cough women don't get a choice) so like where is a fairness in this. also if you look at the extreme people god told me to kill them. ok well uhh thats not good.

ok and then the preist you know its probably not only the preist of the catholics who are "hurting" kids. just the government doesn't bring it up. lol it could be that.

i think religion also exists because people want to believe in something when the worse happens. so...

ramenkage

03-03-2005, 04:56 AM

i notice how religion is the strongest in third world countries
possible reasons
1. uneducated
2. poor
3. recieve help from brainwashing missionaries

kivol

03-04-2005, 08:18 PM

yeah its true because they are more they are not educated enough to understand that books aren't always right. and you need to think for yourself not from a book. some things you should probably follow but not everything. the poor thing connects to the educated so yes.
brain washing what do you mean?

ramenkage

03-05-2005, 02:32 AM

brainwashing is a little harsh
but what i mean any religion is essentially a cult
to obtain salvation members often time lose their rationality
for instance suicide bombing
but in another case, that one city in fma that believed in the sun god

kivol

03-05-2005, 05:51 AM

oh lol nice analogy(hopefully i spent that right) umm yeah ok i understand. but i don't think many peolpe get brain washed. but i would say religion is some what of a cult of people who like to spread there beleif to every1.

and for those who are extremes and think theres is right and only right. those people need to get help and quick. those are the afanistan people w/e his face i forget. he is one of those extremes he says that his god tells him to kill americans. this is not true at all the palistanies say there is nothing in there bible or w/e you want to call it that says "kill thee americans quick be before they infect us with the fat gene"

Mith2520000

03-06-2005, 09:34 AM

ramenkage

03-06-2005, 05:25 PM

:sigh: What else can I say. I believe strongly in my religion and I definitely don't fall into any of your category. I am in a First World country and my religion is Islam by the way. Err, a Muslim's Bible is known as the Koran. Those suicide bombers are not matyrs as it goes against the rules which is not to attack civilians. Don't worry, we don't force people to join. It is up to them. Unlike those Evangelists that irritates me wherever I go.
my three categories up there are for a religious community than an individual, since people vary. there exist the scientific christians, who believe in both the bible and science. how that works i dont know for sure. however, there is no denying that poorer countries have more faith. they need to believe in a better place because the one they live in now is surrounded in pain and suffering

Ennoozunu

03-06-2005, 09:53 PM

my three categories up there are for a religious community than an individual, since people vary. there exist the scientific christians, who believe in both the bible and science. how that works i dont know for sure. however, there is no denying that poorer countries have more faith. they need to believe in a better place because the one they live in now is surrounded in pain and suffering

I don't think its because of pain/suffering or that they have less.
I think they are more religious(as a group) because their society is less science based.
North America is a very science based community and therefore making a decent percentage of our society believe in only science.

Personally I think science complements god and is proof that there has to be a god(meaning some other presence).

Zero

03-06-2005, 10:58 PM

there exist the scientific christians, who believe in both the bible and science. how that works i dont know for sure. however, there is no denying that poorer countries have more faith. they need to believe in a better place because the one they live in now is surrounded in pain and suffering

Reffer to my last big post.. Do you realize how perfect the universe is, scientifically?

:sigh: What else can I say. I believe strongly in my religion and I definitely don't fall into any of your category. I am in a First World country and my religion is Islam by the way. Err, a Muslim's Bible is known as the Koran. Those suicide bombers are not matyrs as it goes against the rules which is not to attack civilians. Don't worry, we don't force people to join. It is up to them. Unlike those Evangelists that irritates me wherever I go. :redbiggri

If you beleive in a religion, beleiving in it strongly is the only way. Who beleives in a religion "halfly"??

Looks like I am the only Muslim here. Anyway, Koran has stated that the basis for all living things is water and guess what? Scientists finds out that the primodial soup, the first sea on Earth, is the basis of all living creatures. Also, the Koran proves that Earth was never the center of the universe but we feel that we are special and also the movement of the planets around the sun in its own orbit.

I couldn't get myself a copy of the Koran.. :( About the water comment, it's common knowledge that life revolves around water; we'd die without it.
What's funny about the orbits is that the church shut-upped anyone that dared say the earth wasn't the centre of the universe. (in the past) They finally renounced there statement in 1991(to gallileo), and admitted that the sun is actually at the centre. Not that long ago. =\

[To Ennoozunu]

Are you a christian?

Ennoozunu

03-06-2005, 11:43 PM

[To Ennoozunu]

Are you a christian?

Not really.
I do believe in some of the bible but not all of it.
As I said I believe in parts of differint religions.
I believe that there is a god and that no one religion is totally right but the fact that someone believes in a god of some kind is what matters.

narratorxx

03-07-2005, 12:15 AM

If you beleive in a religion, beleiving in it strongly is the only way. Who beleives in a religion "halfly"??
actually i have a bunch of friends who are partly religious--in surveys they would mark some christian denomination or catholic...but they only go to church on holidays, or special occasions--like baptisms and weddings, etc...they believe in god, but don't believe everything in the bible...and some are just as quick as athiests to criticize their own religion...

some go through the motions of the religion, but don't believe at all, cause it's required of them--usually family pressure...and on the other side of the coin, there are some who believe whole-heartedly, but dont' go through the motions at all--i'm talking about people in general here...

Zero

03-07-2005, 12:46 AM

actually i have a bunch of friends who are partly religious--in surveys they would mark some christian denomination or catholic...but they only go to church on holidays, or special occasions--like baptisms and weddings, etc...they believe in god, but don't believe everything in the bible...and some are just as quick as athiests to criticize their own religion...some go through the motions of the religion, but don't believe at all, cause it's required of them--usually family pressure...and on the other side of the coin, there are some who believe whole-heartedly, but dont' go through the motions at all--i'm talking about people in general here...

That's oxymoronic, Beleiving in something, but not beleiving in something, no? Then they arn't really a christian if they do that. Almost no one is these days is.. But they are devoutly beleiving in their religion.

If they go through the motions and whatnot, but don't beleive. That means they don't beleive. As simple as that.

ramenkage

03-07-2005, 02:03 AM

I don't think its because of pain/suffering or that they have less.
I think they are more religious(as a group) because their society is less science based.

people are more willing to believe if they are suffering, but science may have alot to do with it =/
Reffer to my last big post.. Do you realize how perfect the universe is, scientifically?what does that have to do with poor people and religion?

narratorxx

03-07-2005, 02:12 AM

That's oxymoronic, Beleiving in something, but not beleiving in something, no? Then they arn't really a christian if they do that. Almost no one is these days is.. But they are devoutly beleiving in their religion.

If they go through the motions and whatnot, but don't beleive. That means they don't beleive. As simple as that.
it may be oxymoronic, but that doesn't mean it can't exist...you're trying to compare everyone to blind faith believers, and that's just unfair...you're trying to take something that's entirely gray and make it black and white...but whatever, it's your thing, believe what you believe

ramenkage

03-07-2005, 02:16 AM

its not oxymoronic...
i dont think they believe in the mix, but rather believe in their own religion and they worship in the way they think is best, which to me is better than worshipping strictly according to a certain sect.
edit: also doesnt christian just mean believing christ?

Zero

03-07-2005, 03:31 AM

it may be oxymoronic, but that doesn't mean it can't exist...you're trying to compare everyone to blind faith believers, and that's just unfair...you're trying to take something that's entirely gray and make it black and white...but whatever, it's your thing, believe what you believe

Did I say it can't I exist? I only implied that is was oxymoronic. We're talking about half-way beleivers, can you specify where it appeared that I was comparing people to blind faith believers? Then I'll reiterate it, because I didn't want to give off that impression. :sad:

What is so gray about giving all your heart for what you beleive in?

its not oxymoronic...
i dont think they believe in the mix, but rather believe in their own religion and they worship in the way they think is best, which to me is better than worshipping strictly according to a certain sect.

I was trying to point that out in my last post. It should say "they are devoutly beleiving in their *own* religion. "

Everyone worships a different God.

what does that have to do with poor people and religion?

It has to do with religion [IE someone planned the universe] because it is perfect. Some random event occured and out came this perfect universe?

ramenkage

03-07-2005, 04:08 AM

It has to do with religion [IE someone planned the universe] because it is perfect. Some random event occured and out came this perfect universei think you misunderstand, i was talking about poor people and religion...that has nothing to do with a perfect universe.
but what does universe being perfect have to do with religion?
and secondly, the universe isnt perfect
in comparison with the universe, humans are nothing. earth could be blown up right now and it wouldnt have the least bit effect on the universe. so if there is a god, i dont think it matters whether or not we believe he exist since our actions are so insignificant

Pipp-ORK

03-13-2005, 04:58 PM

Most religions say that if you're not a member of their religion, then you'll go to hell or some place like that. So..in other words, we're all going to go to hell? O_O It would be a lot eaiser if there were only ONE religion, but we all know that that will NEVER happen. Different religions have different Gods/Goddesses, so it is debatable if the God/Goddess that we worship actually exists....

keahi103

03-15-2005, 05:48 AM

the only reason that i can come up with for the existence of religion, is the provide hope : for better circumstances, or a life, others....hope for soemthing better.

but how these organizations go about providing hope is totally different. People are people, and i believe that human beings by nature tend to changes things in order to please themselves...but that's off topic.

umm..i think that's all i have to say. take or leave it, as long as you don't get offended, that's the last thing i want to do. just stating an opinion.

Pipp-ORK

03-17-2005, 04:14 AM

That's a great post, keahi103, and I totally agree with you. Whether or not you actually BELIEVE in your religion is up to you, though...My grandmother is a hard-core catholic, and whenever she hears anything about murder, or incest or adultry etc., she goes on a mad rave about how they'll all go to hell....O_O I've learned to tune her out by now, though..(Let's all just hope that she never hears tell of 'Angel Sanctuary'...That OAV/manga had enough incest to give her 3 heart-attacks on the same day. Don't get me wrong, Angel Sanctuary was awesome, but I don't think that granny would really enjoy the theme...What with all the REBEL AGAINST GOD!!! stuff in it..)

Mith2520000

03-23-2005, 11:21 PM

Hmm, you have a point. Everyone has their own choices on what they think. For me, we must definitely have law and order. If there is no such thing, this whole freaking place would be in anarchy. No more peace!

Tes

03-26-2005, 05:18 PM

I respect everyons religion, but <I'm Atheist.. I really don't believe in anything.

Pipp-ORK

04-01-2005, 01:19 AM

I'm Roman Catholic, myself. My family and I don't go to church very often, though. Only on Christmas, Easter or if there's a death in the family or if someone's getting married. O_O

Cain

04-10-2005, 02:34 PM

Filthy Pagan swine I be.

According to written european history from half a dozen centuries ago.

Joking aside, I'm one of those religions that's usually mistaken for being Satanism...Saex-Wica.

Sahiden

04-10-2005, 04:10 PM

I'm an atheist of some sort... I don't believe in any religion.
I do believe it is possible to have life after death. But the traditional image of how this would be is always too narrow.
I just mean, look at how complicated life is. The very base on what the physical realm was built is extremely complicated. Not to mention the size of the Universe. That is if there is only one Universe at all.
Then when you see at how afterlife would be built: Heaven and Hell, variations in every religion, but it all comes down to that. It's a very Black/White vision. It would be pretty illogical to have such an easy built Soul realm.

So, I'm not buying the whole H&H crap of religions. What about Reincarnation.
I think it would be pretty sadistic in a way if the world would work like that.

In the end it all comes to this: Is there any chance of an afterlife. Well, I say there is, probably more complicated than the religional ways though.
How can you tell. 1 question: what part of you, is really you. What part of you is not just a "borrowed part".
(Don't forget the 2 forever constant values in life: 1) The amount of matter in the Universe is constant. 2) The existance of Time
As 1. says, the amount of matter is constant, all matter is recycled. Meaning you exist of other beings. Your bones alone are built from 1000s of dead creatures. (Note: Vegetarians that say they eat no meat because the poor animals won't have to die for them are hypocrites, PLANTS ARE ALSO MADE FROM DEAD ANIMALS. Moreoverly, plants feed on the dead. It's the cycle of life-components.))
The answer to that question is also the answer to the question if there is an afterlife.
Your body will be recycled no matter what.

Hmmmm... I didn't mean to make a post this long.

sliverstorm

04-10-2005, 11:46 PM

Have you ever noticed... religion is kinda cultish. especially Christianity and such. The whole concept of worshiping someone, following every word they said, seems really scary if you aren't reffering to a religion. But wait! That is really what religion is. What if Jesus was a normal guy too? Just a cult that survived through time. Me personally I'm "not practicing". Not an Atheist; I don't specifically beleive there is no god. Not a polytheist, or monotheist, or any of that. Just not practicing. (one of my friends is an "egotheistic"- he belives he is god. But before you grab your torches and pitchforks, it goes on. He belives he is his own god, able to change his own life, and that everyone else is their own god too)

Lune

04-11-2005, 02:44 AM

I think thats a very important topic no one pays enough attention to in the world. I think religions are just another way we try and create conflict among us, really just look at the barbaric events of the past. The world is a tomb full of millions that died in the name of religion. We all strive to exist for a reason, but are we so desperate we believe on prophecies and books of the past?

Everything doesnt need to have such a clear cut answer, we were born because we were born, we live out our lives because we can, we live for people, family, maybe friends, even sometimes strangers. Why do we need to have the "ultimate being" to live for, the day i see a god(keyword *A* god, all religions seem to divide and create conflict.) with my own eyes, you can say i told you so, but for now ill live because i have dreams and i want to reach them.

hattoritenkosan

04-11-2005, 03:51 AM

yes religion should exist. many people need something to believe in in our screwed up world and who better than god? some people believe only in themselves (buncha little gaaras runnin around jk) and are content with that and even though i disagree thats your decision. I do see god work in my as well as other peoples lives all the time and when he shows me things or answers my prayers that is enough for me to believe. Most people dont see these things because they dont sincerely accept even his existence into their hearts. Think about it, if someone accused you of stealing to one of your best friends, and youve proved to them time and time again that you would never steal, would you stay friends with the guy that doubted you because he "didnt see you not steal it" or would you stay friends with the guy who believed in you and had your back even if he didnt know himself what happened. Everyone expects god to just jump into our lives, start doing miracles, and beg us to follow him but its not like that. You have to want it for yourself. God already did his part by dying for all of our sins...what are WE doing for him?
sorry if im boring some of you but if at least one person understands ill be content

Ichigo97

04-11-2005, 04:11 AM

I think FAITH is more important than Religion.... Yes, we have different religions on different continents of the world but what is common is the Faith on what we believe in. Some religion claims that they are the only one who will be save and yet how should we know? I mean, what happens to those people living on the farthest part of the earth who somehow don't heard the word "Religion"? Some may say I'm wrong but that's what I feel and what I believe... I just sharing my thoughts... that's all. LOL peace....

Lovelydeath

04-11-2005, 04:14 AM

Every person has the right to put their faith and belief in something, whether it be in god, some other religion, or any other higher power that they deem fit.

The only clear cut answer people are guaranteed in life is that they will die. I'd rather believe in a place of happiness of peace, then a place of nothingness or torment.

BusHiDo

04-11-2005, 02:50 PM

It does more harm than good... Killing millions over the ages... =/

Religion does not have a place in the new moderna world... Fairy tales is for children not for adults ;)

Lune

04-12-2005, 01:49 AM

I do agree with faith, faith is like trust, and without it, many things crumble. It sounds arrogant and people laugh, but to me, life is about belief in self, belief in friends, and belief in dreams. Ill work towards my future with my own feet and that makes me totally content. When i die, whos to say my soul won't slip into my dreams, the illusion that becomes real.

joogla

04-12-2005, 02:46 AM

From a logical point of view, I would naturally be Atheist but after reading some of "The Question of God" it makes you wonder. C.S. Lewis said that when there is a need in us, there is something that will satisfy that need in the world otherwise you could conclude that the person was not made for this world. So now my logic is leading me elsewhere. If there is an internal need for it I believe that it is very possible that there is a higher being. So now I've been upgraded to Agnostic.

sliverstorm

04-12-2005, 03:52 AM

You can't really logic your way to a god, you know. It just dosn't work. He is not a creature of logic, but one of power. He just is (or isn't)

Have any of you read the Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy? great book. see what happens when you try to logic. God goes poof! (if enough of you haven't read it, i'll explain tommorow)

kinonai

04-13-2005, 01:33 AM

I really don't have an opinion. There have been 'freaky' things that have happened to me (some dreams I had used to come true, although it doesn't happen anymore). I cannot say that there is NOTHING out there besides humans, yet on the other hand I cannot which religion is right. Who knows, maybe bits and pieces of them all are right...

Hinatetsu

04-16-2005, 01:59 AM

Religion itself has become bad. Most religions are selfish and are completely against the Bible, which is supposed to be the symbol of the main religions.

In this topic, I agree with Ichigo97. Faith is what we should be worried about, not religion. People start wars, kill others, justify abuse and such, all in the name of religion. However, faith is believing in God and being saved. I am a Christian, but I don't consider myself religious. In the Bible, Jesus himself disagreed with the church and was against them. Do you really think that the church just suddenly changed their way of thinking after the resurrection?

No! There continued to be church sales, wars, ect - everything that Jesus was against. Somewhere along the line most religions found a way to incorperate what they do with what Jesus wanted, just to make it sound ok. Jesus' mission on earth was to promote peace, harmony and to be crucified - but look what happened.

Churches become obsessed with themselves and Christians think that they are better than other people in the world. Heck, I bet you all that most Christians couldn't tell you the meaning of what the apostle Paul said in Galatians, about trying to become like other people in order to help them. I don't remember the exact chapters (it's been a long time since I memorized the book), but it's there and if anyone wants me to - I can get out my old research stuff and find it. If that's the case, then why are most Churches the first to persecute anyone different than them?

I can quote tons of more examples of where the Churches goes against with what the Bible says, but the list would get too long. I think that the Church expects people not to read the Bible (which was written by the apostles, not the Church) and believe everything they say.

Uzichida Cantameru

04-16-2005, 05:19 AM

ok heres my far fetched idea.
religion=time machine
you want to find out go back in time.
My view no religion is not a nessecity but chosen! People need to cling on to something, understand were their from, we had to come from somewere so there must be a higher being. There could be a strong possibility we are all just in a dream. because to understand if there is a greater being or a need for religion we must first know if life is real. if we find that out we can use the key to life to be able to find out.

Hinatetsu

04-16-2005, 06:17 AM

Of course people need that. What's the point of living if your just going to die and disappear forever. :eek13: That's too sad and pointless, there has to be something else.

Uzichida Cantameru

04-16-2005, 06:25 AM

well i have actually thought and wrote my ideas down.just need to find them. There is no heaven nor heck, hate to break it to ya. B4 you die your mind triggers a memory of happiness this "shock" replays the image forever(heavean). Now for ghost,which i strongly believe are real having seen many,are trapped souls. the way they are put to rest is by doing a certain duty to help[ them remember a good time in their life. If they fail then heck comes in hear, since everyone knows thats its all fire they believe they are in suffering forever. And yes there is a "grim reapear" having seen him or a bad eye trick.
i will post what he looks like l8 or sumtin cause thats off topic to the max.

Hinatetsu

04-16-2005, 06:27 AM

Uzichida Cantameru, I don't understand your ideas, actually, I only understood about half of them! lol. *sorry, so tired*

So there's nothing at all, is that what you are saying?

Uzichida Cantameru

04-16-2005, 06:33 AM

basically im saying that when you die ur brain sends a jolt of a happy memory(heaven).if you cant remember any you look for clues as a spirit, if you fail you have nightmares(heck)thats what i said. i always make everything to long><

Hinatetsu

04-16-2005, 06:39 AM

So what about people who die and come back. That happened to my great-grandmother, she died and 15 minutes later (when my mother arrived at the hospital) came back to say goodbye. Yes, she was in fact declared DEAD too.

Or about the tests during surgery. When people actually see themselves hovering over their bodies. It has been proven because the staff wrote secret non-sense messages on top of cabinets in the operating room, and when the person woke up they were able to relay the message back to the doctor. There's no way that it could have been guessed.

Uzichida Cantameru

04-16-2005, 06:41 AM

mmm...they are a great magician! but yea i dont see how a heaven or heck being possible.

Hinatetsu

04-16-2005, 06:45 AM

There are lots of things that are beyond the human understanding, like for example, the Egyptian pyramids. There's no way that they could have been built, to this day we don't understand how it was possible, but yet, there they are. That's why a little faith is necessary to live.

Uzichida Cantameru

04-16-2005, 06:48 AM

ah le pyramids! thats so stupid i have no idea what im saying but any way
i believe somehow they unlocked a secret. i saw some show on it. they found a way to make working faster etc. its like a hidden book or sumtin. then again could be aliens which i doubt cause they would have taken over us.

Hinatetsu

04-16-2005, 06:56 AM

Those are all speculations though, not everything can be proven with science.

Uzichida Cantameru

04-16-2005, 06:58 AM

but isnt science thinking?
what si thinking?
why are we here?
why do i ask so many questions? the world may nvr know *crunch*
p.s. have u noticed we both gained around 60(i did) posts just talking to each other?

Hinatetsu

04-16-2005, 07:08 AM

Yes, I did notice that. But that's only because you won't let me have the last word, you just keep arguing and arguing with me! :P But this is my last post tonight, I'm too tired.

Science and religion used to be studied together you know, and Darwin himself (I bet they won't teach you this in school) questioned and debated the evolution theory years after making it.

He said that it wouldn't be possible. So that throws that idea out. But people who are afraid of religion held on to evolution in order to try to prove that creationism doesn't exist. I ask again, why are people so afraid of creationism?

But back to science. I think, if anything, science proves that higher powers do exist. Go read my first post on this topic (many pages back), I explain it there.

Uzichida Cantameru

04-16-2005, 07:17 AM

arguing is fun though and were both trying to prove a point.
people are afraid or crossing the line for creationism.
but the thing i dont get is if there is a higher power wouldnt he interfer with world events?
i know i think we all know the world is ending byy fire.But do you know why? i do. missiles nukes pollution etc. we are basically destroying ourselves. so i ask why doesnt this higher power step in if he created us. I kow he would let things go by but y would it be in this type of manner.
like cloning for example arent we playing god then. if i may quote from sumwere "we dont serve god we are god".
this is what makes no sense. But if there is the higher power what is stopping him from saving millions of lives.
Go rd a famouse writer who predicted everything, ill post his name later. Also go watch an anime called arjuna, it shows how we destroy ourselves.
im done
im stupid
im im
now cookie time.

Hinatetsu

04-16-2005, 07:32 AM

Because people have the freedom of choice.

This is a stupid example - but...

You may listen to your parents when they tell you not to do something, like play with fire, but you may not know why nor like the fact that they boss you around. You will always in the back of your mind doubt that your parents know what they are talking about and think that they just want you not to have fun - and you will resent them.

However, if your parents leave you on your own devices and you burn yourself, then you are more than likely not to play with the fire anymore. Sure, you may hate your parents for not interferring and warning you, but you'll have learned from your mistakes.

That's why God gives the freedom of choice, so people will learn from their own mistakes.

Also, a question. Why would God save a world that doesn't believe in him, I sure as heck wouldn't. Most people only believe in God when it's good for them but every other time in their lives they say he doesn't exist and that they don't need a higher power to interfere because they can do everything themselves.

There were so many people in this thread who denied a higher power. So if even God were to interere with their lives, no one would believe it was him because they don't believe that God exists. Most likely they would say that it's because of their will power, or themselves, that they were able to do what they did.

About saving lives though. Did you hear about the orphanage that was saved during the tsunami because the leader prayed for them to be spared? I guess not, because the news doesn't want to show anything good that goes on in the world. That just wouldn't be interesting. The public doesn't care about good news. Not everything in this world is bad and about suffering.

Why is it God's fault that people destory themselves? We had the choice to use nuclear weapons and such. God didn't make us, so why is God blamed for the pollution humans caused to the environment.

Uzichida Cantameru

04-16-2005, 07:47 AM

ah ha exactly you caught on! thank god -_-;
quote:"About saving lives though. Did you hear about the orphanage that was saved during the tsunami because the leader prayed for them to be spared? I guess not, because the news doesn't want to show anything good that goes on in the world. That just wouldn't be interesting. The public doesn't care about good news. Not everything in this world is bad and about suffering."

do u see what i see?! ill quote exact lines:"because the news doesn't want to show anything good that goes on in the world. That just wouldn't be interesting. The public doesn't care about good news."
YES WE ARE DESTROYING OURSELVES!!! just think if we got tax deductions for putting solar energy panels on our roofs.GETTING off our butts and making hydrogen cars available!we would help increase our life!we could live longer gain more knowledge! so u caught on to one thing!

second quote:"Why would God save a world that doesn't believe in him, I sure as heck wouldn't."
YES!!! you wouldnt but if you knew it was going to happen you feal *magic word* merciful!!!!you would let the pure survive who nvr doubted no matter how bad it was to repopulate the world!!!!hence noahs arc!
this is what you have gotten!

be proud in your own way you have proved there will be a new life if we stop being lazy!!!!we have to sacrifice the good of ourselves to the greater man=GOD! So God will show mercy to us and he will let most survive.

3rd thing is! yes we will not do what we say! when have we ever have!!!GOD IS TESTING US TO SEE who is PURE!!!!!this is I believe to be the reason for life, it is a test of loyalty to GOD! To see what we could do on our own! TO see how much we can accomplish!!!!

that is all i will say tonight im going to bed think about it and you will see if you refrence with the bible it is true!! i have rd the bible 6 times in school the whole thing!im christian and studied all of that, i have also studied hebrew. and this is what i believe which will happen, this is my theory, this is why we are here! WE MUST PROVE OURSELVES!!!

have fun rding this, I do say this is my opinion only on how we can save ourselves.

edit: srry didnt think it was THIS long.