Byakuya + Kenpachi VS. Old Man YAMA

[Rokusaburo]

I know this is a bit wierd. But... Seeing old man Yama get so beefed up and schooling Kyouraku and Ukkitake, who would win in an all out fight?

Byakuya + Kenpachi Vs. Yamamoto

My moneys on Old man Yama~ personally. I think he is too /slap biatch *opens can of whoop-ass" old man.


Please post your Thoughts and debate!

[choking]

id go for byakuya and kenpachi.... only coz i like them better than old man

[Ethanol]

I think Zaraki/Byakura can beat him. Kenpachi will just go on a rampage while Byakura shunpo'd around and flanked him. Not to mention that Byakura's Bankai is scary...

Although, we don't know what Yama's Bankai is....hard to tell.

[monkeh]

Hard to say.

Old man did school kyouraku and ukkitake, who are the oldest and most experienced. On the other side byakuya, and kenpachi are on a whole nother level in combat abilities. Byakuya being a bit of a genius, and ken being the unstopable madman.

Still team byakuya gets my vote for character design

[Rokusaburo]

Byakuya being a bit of a genius, and ken being the unstopable madman.

very good observation. But Yama is the one who started the whole gotei 13 bit. You know hes like grandaddy of whoopass....

You gotta give it to the old fart. Look @ that body for his damn age. + his SS is like mad wicked. Didn't they say its the most powerfull fire type SS and over all strongest?

+ The old mans always calm while havoc is happening all around. Like he is SOOOOOO confident in his abilities.... Like when Ichigo stops the Syouk/we Dont remember the name right now.. Everyone was freaking out, and hes like -.-;;;;;

[Ethanol]

The world could be coming to an end and Yama wouldn't even be affect. He will just stomp his cane.

"Enough! I wills top this madness!!"

LOL

[monkeh]

very good observation. But Yama is the one who started the whole gotei 13 bit. You know hes like grandaddy of whoopass....
You gotta give it to the old fart. Look @ that body for his damn age. + his SS is like mad wicked. Didn't they say its the most powerfull fire type SS and over all strongest?
+ The old mans always calm while havoc is happening all around. Like he is SOOOOOO confident in his abilities.... Like when Ichigo stops the Syouk/we Dont remember the name right now.. Everyone was freaking out, and hes like -.-;;;;;

oh I agree entirely with that.

The old man is for sure the most massive can of whop ass in the entire 13 squads, and it's not even a contest.

On the other hand Byakuya is a genius at what he does and his attacks are very unique if done at a good range (ie don't let them get close), kenpachi is the wild card of the captains. He can take wounds that would kill the rest and laugh it off, and he is just an all out monster.

So if it's two on one, and kenpachi got in close, while Byakuya just ran away and played distance/run away the combination would be rather strong.

The concept of team work is not 1+1 = 2, it's 1+1 = 10, and I think those two compliment each other.

[Rokusaburo]

So if it's two on one, and kenpachi got in close, while Byakuya just ran away and played distance/run away the combination would be rather strong.

I understand where you are coming from...
but if it were like that, Kenpachi is a physical fighter, so he needs to be in close range to be effective, while byakuya pretty much has control of the field. If it were to be like that I think It would be even Easier for Yama to take em down... First kill off the bait (Kenpachi) and then go for Byakuya..
Dont underestimate the old mans speed lol...
He did out flash step kyouraku and ukitake who took off like a minute before he did.. when they were on the run lol... Thats f*ck'n impressive.

[BeeCrest]

I'm not sure, cuz it doesn't seem like alot is known about Gen. Yama, at least no as much as Byakuya and Zaraki's powers.

[Byakuya7]

Old Man Yama would tear them both to shreds even if they fought together.

[Rokusaburo]

I'm not sure, cuz it doesn't seem like alot is known about Gen. Yama, at least no as much as Byakuya and Zaraki's powers.

But from what you witnnessed.....

Kyouraku and Ukkitake, which have far more experience then any other taicho~ since they were the first to be taicho~...

Yama owned them... hard... lol

they be like on the defensive end only... and sweat'n like bishes..

while yamas like... come fool /slap /opencanofwhoopassfool....

[M_Ghey]

I think Yama would lose. I mean, they are the 2 strongest captains.

[grimm_fans]

Insane Rampage and Super Stab v.s. extreme fire power

The fire power would lose since he would get stab either way

[monkeh]

I think Yama would lose. I mean, they are the 2 strongest captains.


Not only that but their strengths are opposite, and thus don't counter well, but compliment well.

In this case the sum of their strengths is much greater then it would seem.

But then again, the truth is we know how strong byakuya is for sure, we are told ken is just as strong and from what we saw that is reasonable to assume.

We have no clue how far yama can go, or his limits for endurance and abuse.

Plus byakuya gets free points for looking cool

[Rokusaburo]

The fire power would lose since he would get stab either way


Ukkitake and Kyouraku were scared shiet-less

"He turns everything in his wake to ashes"
From here till the depth of the sea and some shiet like that.

He aint only fire power lol....

Old man has the most skill out of em all. He is supperior by that. + He gots WAY more speed.... and power. imho~....

[Rokusaburo]

We have no clue how far yama can go, or his limits for endurance and abuse.


truth is known tho that he did make arrogant remarks @ kyouraku and ukkitake that they better unleash their Soul slayers cuzz he was still gonna own their asses... lol... the 2 most experienced captains didnt even touch yama.... u think the 2 strongest captains have a chance?

hmmm... looks real slendder to me

[monkeh]

truth is known tho that he did make arrogant remarks @ kyouraku and ukkitake that they better unleash their Soul slayers cuzz he was still gonna own their asses... lol... the 2 most experienced captains didnt even touch yama.... u think the 2 strongest captains have a chance?
hmmm... looks real slendder to me

great point and a solid one, I agree.

However experience isn't always greater then raw power, or sheer ability. This is also a good point.

And a chance is a chance, however slender.

Also let me make a totaly crazy arguement.... that kyouraku and ukkitake might have a disadvantage because yama knows them so well. You know your oldest students the best, especially if you trained them. So yama would know all their moves and tricks.

In contrast we don't know what he taught byakuya, but we can assume he knows some about him, and probably a good bit. But Ken is a wild card because he didn't take the typical shinagami path.

So yama can fight two knows, or a semi known and an unkown... the suprise factor there might be a factor.

Though that's pure speculation.

[AznPoi]

oh I agree entirely with that.
The old man is for sure the most massive can of whop ass in the entire 13 squads, and it's not even a contest.
On the other hand Byakuya is a genius at what he does and his attacks are very unique if done at a good range (ie don't let them get close), kenpachi is the wild card of the captains. He can take wounds that would kill the rest and laugh it off, and he is just an all out monster.
So if it's two on one, and kenpachi got in close, while Byakuya just ran away and played distance/run away the combination would be rather strong.
The concept of team work is not 1+1 = 2, it's 1+1 = 10, and I think those two compliment each other.
OMFG IT'S SO TRUE
There are only 10 types of people that understand binary code. Those that do and those that don't.

How ingenius of you!!!

Back on topic:
Depends if Kenpachi has at least a shikai. If he does then Kenpachi alone is more than a match for Yama-jii, let alone be paired up with Byakuya.

Back off topic:
Anyone understood the previous quote about the 10 types of people?

[monkeh]

wow, somebody caught the pun ;)

[Cassie]

Yama wouldn't lose, cuz he's not the type to underestimate people. In this case, the only way for byakya and kenpachi to win would be to be underestimated, which like i said, wont happen.

[Rokusaburo]

However experience isn't always greater then raw power, or sheer ability. This is also a good point.

And a chance is a chance, however slender.

Also let me make a totaly crazy arguement.... that kyouraku and ukkitake might have a disadvantage because yama knows them so well. You know your oldest students the best, especially if you trained them. So yama would know all their moves and tricks.

In contrast we don't know what he taught byakuya, but we can assume he knows some about him, and probably a good bit. But Ken is a wild card because he didn't take the typical shinagami path.

So yama can fight two knows, or a semi known and an unkown... the suprise factor there might be a factor.

Though that's pure speculation

I feel u~

But that would mean if yama knew his 2 students so well, wouldnt the 2 stundent know yama so well too? know his true power, his escense? what he is capabale of. The same way he knows them...

it even outs and equals par, hence it cancels that theory.

Yet ukkitake and kyouraku were AMAZED, GASPING IN "AW" when they saw yamas bit of power lol. thats not expected form students who know their master as well as their master knows them.

Same goes for Byakuya and kenpachi. Yama may not know them that well. But the same level of knowledge he has of them is the same level of knowledge they have of him. Again it cancels that theory.

+ yama selects the taicho~ knowning what their true potential is. So he has to be aware of their powers and skills.etc etcs...

[monkeh]

I feel u~
But that would mean if yama knew his 2 students so well, wouldnt the 2 stundent know yama so well too? know his true power, his escense? what he is capabale of. The same way he knows them...
it even outs and equals par, hence it cancels that theory.
Yet ukkitake and kyouraku were AMAZED, GASPING IN "AW" when they saw yamas bit of power lol. thats not expected form students who know their master as well as their master knows them.
Same goes for Byakuya and kenpachi. Yama may not know them that well. But the same level of knowledge he has of them is the same level of knowledge they have of him. Again it cancels that theory.
+ yama selects the taicho~ knowning what their true potential is. So he has to be aware of their powers and skills.etc etcs...

Very true you got me there, back to the wall I can't really counter that on any logical level.:sad:

However the one gap I poke into that is master vs student, against godly vs unknown power.

Obviously the master beats his student, but ken is self made, and brakes the mold of what a captain "should be", he is a wild card. Byakuya also seems to have a much cooler head on his shoulders and probably wouldn't fall into the "oh crap it's yama" situation the other two captains did.

Also on personality ken doesn't care if he lives or dies, he would just go at it, and byakuya has proven (by going along with rukias execution, and nearly killing renji) that he doesn't care about sacrificing any ally... that's a powerfull combination right there, and as I said before it compliments each other.

[Byakuya7]

ok no long drawn out argument here. Yama took on 2 of the most experienced captains with ease. Not to mention he hasnt released his ban kai which would already increase his power several times over. He also is the oldest and most experienced shinigami with the strongest fire type zanpaktou.

yama>>>byakuya and kenpachi

[Rokusaburo]

Obviously the master beats his student, but ken is self made, and brakes the mold of what a captain "should be", he is a wild card. Byakuya also seems to have a much cooler head on his shoulders and probably wouldn't fall into the "oh crap it's yama" situation the other two captains did.

Also on personality ken doesn't care if he lives or dies, he would just go at it, and byakuya has proven (by going along with rukias execution, and nearly killing renji) that he doesn't care about sacrificing any ally... that's a powerfull combination right there, and as I said before it compliments each other.

you do have some key points i would like to make reference to.

Ken being a wild card is a possibility, god knows he is truly remarkable. On the other hand byakuya underestimated Ichigo... why cuzz he has toooooooooo much pride and ego and cant begin to comprehend the logic behind ichigos power. "a ryouka with this such spirt force" blah blah blah.

He does keep his cool yea. but he is too "by the book" if you ask me.
Everything has to be mellow~ acording to logic. Something Illogical like Yamas power, couldnt be comprehended by the likes of him.

How? well everyone /bows down to kenpachi, cuzz his power is "incomprehensible" minds cant even start to understand his demonic power... yet... he gets beaten... Yama is godly, the first taicho, the squads captain, the head honcho. would byakuya begging to comprehend this power of yamas? Byakuya will just be in denial until he sees it for his own eyes. and by that time it will be too late.

[Byakuya7]

If Byakuya holds such high regards and respect for Ukitake, he would hold even more respect for Old man Yama and acknowledge that hes powerful.

[Rokusaburo]

If Byakuya holds such high regards and respect for Ukitake, he would hold even more respect for Old man Yama and acknowledge that hes powerful.

Indeed.

And as you all saw yama > ukkitake + kyouraku

[monkeh]

you do have some key points i would like to make reference to.
Ken being a wild card is a possibility, god knows he is truly remarkable. On the other hand byakuya underestimated Ichigo... why cuzz he has toooooooooo much pride and ego and cant begin to comprehend the logic behind ichigos power. "a ryouka with this such spirt force" blah blah blah.
He does keep his cool yea. but he is too "by the book" if you ask me.
Everything has to be mellow~ acording to logic. Something Illogical like Yamas power, couldnt be comprehended by the likes of him.
How? well everyone /bows down to kenpachi, cuzz his power is "incomprehensible" minds cant even start to understand his demonic power... yet... he gets beaten... Yama is godly, the first taicho, the squads captain, the head honcho. would byakuya begging to comprehend this power of yamas? Byakuya will just be in denial until he sees it for his own eyes. and by that time it will be too late.

Once again great points.

Let me make some assumptions as we are beginning to come to a consensus on just what the factors are in this fight.

1.Yama is hands down the god of all of the, there is no possible way he can lose individually, and his experience and raw power will probably carry him a in group part.
2.ken is a wild card and the only “unknown” in this fight. His abilities are obviously far beyond any other captain in his own way, yet far inferior in others... thus you can't gauge how it can pan out.
3.Byakuya is stronger then most, but arrogant to the point of underestmating (and thus also over estimating) a situation based on sheer pride or reputation.

So here is the way I see it. IF (and this is a big if) Ken's powers not only beat most of the captains (he and byakuya are supposedly the two strongest), and IF Byakuya can swallow his pride the fight would be good.

On the other hand if byakuya walks into it with his typical mind set, or ken isn't as strong, they are going to get spanked.

And yes byakuya is the definition of denial and not realizing what is going on in the fight around him... however that confidence is well earnd.

P.S. You're fun to debate with.

[Rokusaburo]

On the other hand if byakuya walks into it with his typical mind set, or ken isn't as strong, they are going to get spanked.

And yes byakuya is the definition of denial and not realizing what is going on in the fight around him... however that confidence is well earnd.
QUOTE]

As yama told Kyouraku and ukkitake "this is going to be more then a spanking"

Lol~ that made me ponder his great power.

Throwing everything at you, even the kitchen sink :

If it would ever come down to byakuya + kenpachi vs. yama, they know they need to give it their all. obviuosly knowing that, ken wouldnt be so rash and byakuya would lighten up. That being said, getting stright down to the point, lets base this battle on shear skill.

Yama invited the 13 squads, hand picked the captains, invented the school of death god training. Do you not think he is far greater then what they portray him as? As for byakuya and ken, being the great fighters that they are in their own respective ways, would they even consider a fight against yama, given that they are aware of all the odds against them? Do you think they could be that Smart?

[QUOTE]P.S. You're fun to debate with.[/

90% of the people I know have told me that I should be a Lawyer... meh that sucks >_<; but thanks for the compliment

[M_Ghey]

Once again great points.

Let me make some assumptions as we are beginning to come to a consensus on just what the factors are in this fight.

1.Yama is hands down the god of all of the, there is no possible way he can lose individually, and his experience and raw power will probably carry him a in group part.
2.ken is a wild card and the only “unknown” in this fight. His abilities are obviously far beyond any other captain in his own way, yet far inferior in others... thus you can't gauge how it can pan out.
3.Byakuya is stronger then most, but arrogant to the point of underestmating (and thus also over estimating) a situation based on sheer pride or reputation.

So here is the way I see it. IF (and this is a big if) Ken's powers not only beat most of the captains (he and byakuya are supposedly the two strongest), and IF Byakuya can swallow his pride the fight would be good.

On the other hand if byakuya walks into it with his typical mind set, or ken isn't as strong, they are going to get spanked.

And yes byakuya is the definition of denial and not realizing what is going on in the fight around him... however that confidence is well earnd.

P.S. You're fun to debate with.

Yama cannot loose individually? Truly? I agree that he would have overcomed Ukitake and that other captain, but so would Ken, I believe. I woild even go as far as saying that he might have trouble defeating Ichigo. But I will leave myself room for error, since I do not know Yama's Bankai.

Kenpachi, I think it would take Yama a lot of blows to bring down a demon such as him. Ken does not care about status or how strong his opponent is, nor is he too concerned with survival. He would never have a thought of losing or giving up. When someone is like that, they become truly dangerous since they are as ferocious as a wild animal in a fight.

Buyakuya, his shikai is great for long distance and can block any attack that we have seen so far. I do not believe that he will underestimate Yama, especially after losing to a ryoka. His Bankai is much stronger then we all know. Remember, he CAN make those 1000 blades attack all at once. His speed is also great making it easy for him to maneuver around the battle site.

Shortly, If Ken takes off his eye patch and both of them can fight in a strategic manner, then they can beat Yama. It is hard to block thousands of razor-sharp petals while fending off a crazy ferocious demon. (Ken)

[Sandal Hat]

This topic should be a one sided debate in Yama's favor.

Wow. Just wow.

[monkeh]

As for byakuya and ken, being the great fighters that they are in their own respective ways, would they even consider a fight against yama, given that they are aware of all the odds against them? Do you think they could be that Smart?

As I can refute none of your other points (well made I must add) and I'm playing devils advocate (thus I tend to agree with you) let me throw out this arguement even though it's a straw man conjecture.

1. I'm unsure of what you mean by "that smart", I'm sure ken would consider, and take up the fight regardless of odds, and fight it is his own way.

Here is your strawman

ken wouldnt be so rash

This is your only logical failure. Ken is always rash, that's what he is. Win or lose goes out the window, how badly he gets hurt doesn't matter, the more insane the fight is the more fun he has. The problem is Byakuya, and what he would do.

That brings another angle to this odd debate. Could Byakuya fight old man with his full heart and not fear him, and have no self doubt? Ken can for better or for worse, but Byakuya might be to smart/scared and worry about his own hide.

That factor right there might give Yama a free win.

[Rokusaburo]

Yama cannot loose individually? Truly? I agree that he would have overcomed Ukitake and that other captain, but so would Ken, I believe. I woild even go as far as saying that he might have trouble defeating Ichigo. But I will leave myself room for error, since I do not know Yama's Bankai.

Kenpachi, I think it would take Yama a lot of blows to bring demon a demon such as him. Ken doe not care about status or how strong his opponent is, nor is he too concerned with survival. He would never have a thought of losing or giving up. When someone is like that, they become truly dangerous since they are as ferocious as a wild animal in a fight.

Buyakuya, his shikai is great for long distance and can block any attack that we have seen so far. I do not believe that he will underestimate Yama, especially after losing to a ryoka. His Bankai is much stronger then we all know. Remember, he CAN make those 1000 blades attack all at once. His speed is also great making it easy for him to maneuver around the battle site.

Shortly, If Ken takes off his eye patch and both of them can fight in a strategic manner, then they can beat Yama. It is hard to block thousands of razor-sharp petals while fending off a crazy ferocious demon. (Ken)


Ill go back and requote what I wrote in the other thread.

Byakuya is not the key element in this equation. Kenpachi is. Why? Cuzz byakuya did his bankai agianst Renji, and renji lived, and renji is only a neewb. Truly renjis power increased cuzz he had a seanse of duty, (protecting rukia) but we are talking about fuging Yama here. Grandad of all and everything that has and can be associated with Shinigami-ism.

As I also stated previously, Setting Bankai and Shikai apart, and getting down to the nitty~gritty, Skill is what would predominate. I think the best odds are on kenpachi rather then Byakuya. Byakuya is a fair fighter, while kenpachi isint. Byakuya is gracefull in killing, kenpachi just does it for a past-time. He lives for it. Byakuya wouldnt be able to comprehend that beacuse he is too full of himself to truly realize, he had no chance up against yama in the first place.

[Rokusaburo]

This is your only logical failure. Ken is always rash, that's what he is. Win or lose goes out the window, how badly he gets hurt doesn't matter, the more insane the fight is the more fun he has. The problem is Byakuya, and what he would do.

That brings another angle to this odd debate. Could Byakuya fight old man with his full heart and not fear him, and have no self doubt? Ken can for better or for worse, but Byakuya might be to smart/scared and worry about his own hide.

That factor right there might give Yama a free win.

That is exactly my point, Only if ken wouldnt be so rash. Given that he will NEVER in HELL be passive about fighting, this option is canceld aswell, restating and reassuring my original post and the escense of this thread.

YAMA > Kenpachi + byakuya

[Tanya]

I don't think there's enough information given about Yama-jii, so you can't really determine who is greater than whom. Still, I think Yama-jii pwnz :)

OMFG IT'S SO TRUE
There are only 10 types of people that understand binary code. Those that do and those that don't.
What is binary code? o_O

[M_Ghey]

Ill go back and requote what I wrote in the other thread.

Byakuya is not the key element in this equation. Kenpachi is. Why? Cuzz byakuya did his bankai agianst Renji, and renji lived, and renji is only a neewb. Truly renjis power increased cuzz he had a seanse of duty, (protecting rukia) but we are talking about fuging Yama here. Grandad of all and everything that has and can be associated with Shinigami-ism.

As I also stated previously, Setting Bankai and Shikai apart, and getting down to the nitty~gritty, Skill is what would predominate. I think the best odds are on kenpachi rather then Byakuya. Byakuya is a fair fighter, while kenpachi isint. Byakuya is gracefull in killing, kenpachi just does it for a past-time. He lives for it. Byakuya wouldnt be able to comprehend that beacuse he is too full of himself to truly realize, he had no chance up against yama in the first place.
I guess I did not put enough empahasis on this in my post. I think Kenpachi is more crucial to their victory then Buyakuya. He is best in killing and fighting, andl, as I have previously stated, he does not feel fear, which makes him fighting as hard as he possibly can every second of the encounter.
Yet, without Buyakuya, he cannot defeat Yama. Not at his current level of skill advancement. Together, they are a long AND short distance killing machine. Still, I believe that if they do win, then it would be Ken delivering the crucial blow that would tip the fight in their favor.

[Rokusaburo]

I don't think there's enough information given about Yama-jii, so you can't really determine who is greater than whom. Still, I think Yama-jii pwnz

I am backing up all my posts with the only evidence I have, which is the one everyone has. Cuzz sadly that is all they have let us wittness in Bleach.

That is enough information to clariffy in my mind that Yama-sama is extremley powerfull and we havent even seen 80% of it.

[monkeh]

That is exactly my point, Only if ken wouldnt be so rash. Given that he will NEVER in HELL be passive about fighting, this option is canceld aswell, restating and reassuring my original post and the escense of this thread.
YAMA > Kenpachi + byakuya


Hrmmm I think I read that wrong, sorry my bad.

Though IMHO it's Ken's "**** it this shit is fun" which gives him the only SHRED Of a hope vs Yama, and nobody else has that.

The fight comes down to ken and what he can pull.

It's always the wild card that wins, or loses the odds.

What is binary code? o_O

use google, but it's machine language, 1's and 0's it's how you talk to a computational device on the most basic level

I guess I did not put enough empahasis on this in my post. I think Kenpachi is more crucial to their victory then Buyakuya. He is best in killing and fighting, andl, as I have previously stated, he does not feel fear, which makes him fighting as hard as he possibly can every second of the encounter.
Yet, without Buyakuya, he cannot defeat Yama. Not at his current level of skill advancement. Together, they are a long AND short distance killing machine. Still, I believe that if they do win, then it would be Ken delivering the crucial blow that would tip the fight in their favor.

this is what I have been driving at but you summed it up better

[M_Ghey]

That is exactly my point, Only if ken wouldnt be so rash. Given that he will NEVER in HELL be passive about fighting, this option is canceld aswell, restating and reassuring my original post and the escense of this thread.

YAMA > Kenpachi + byakuya
Yes, Ken is rash. He cannot change it, no one can. But we can make our shortcomings our strenghths. If he uses his rashness to his advantage, then he will be truly fearsome. I stated why in my last post.

[Sandal Hat]

It's always the wild card that wins, or loses the odds.


Not if the wild card isn't even in the same league as what he is going up against.

[Rokusaburo]

I guess I did not put enough empahasis on this in my post. I think Kenpachi is more crucial to their victory then Buyakuya. He is best in killing and fighting, andl, as I have previously stated, he does not feel fear, which makes him fighting as hard as he possibly can every second of the encounter.
Yet, without Buyakuya, he cannot defeat Yama. Not at his current level of skill advancement. Together, they are a long AND short distance killing machine. Still, I believe that if they do win, then it would be Ken delivering the crucial blow that would tip the fight in their favor.

By a long shot I agree with you on half your post.

I guess I will make myself clearer~

Kenpachis weakness and strength is the same escense, His love for fighting. It is a double edged sword that knows no fear. It acts against him and ales him at will.

Against any other ordinary advisary, it works very will in conjunction with him. yet, against Yama i would only Imagine that it wouldnt. Why, because the magnitude of the gravity of the situation ( i know sounds redundant) leads to no ends in favor for both byakuya and kenpachi. Sure they can help each other out and 2 against 1 is better then a solo fight. but, I would have to say Kenpachis weakness is reenforced seeing as he will go into the fight, with absoultley no care and preocupaction in his mind. And that will be the end of him, why? Because he will die blinded by his own truth.

[M_Ghey]

Not if the wild card isn't even in the same league as what he is going up against.
Well, how can you say that. I bet Ken can fight Yama and have a good chance of not losing quickly. He is too ferocious and fearless. Remember, Ukitake and the other captain never lost to Yama. They might have in the end, but they are not Ken and Buyakuya.

Just because Yama is stronger than every other captain does not mean he is impregnable. Otherwise Ukitake and the other captain wouldn't have fought him. They are the most rational captains in the Gotei 13, they wouldn't stumble into a fight not knowing what they are getting into. That implies that they KNEW that they had a chance. And if they had a achance, then Ken and Buyakuya are almost likely to win, because they are so much more powerful.

[monkeh]

But he doesn't have a truth, just a lust, and byakuya will be free to engage at range (his strength because he isn't great up close) at will.

Trying to beat a ranged master, and a close combat monster is very hard, it's a deadly combination. Throw in Byakuya's damage ability in ranged attacks, and ken's ability to take a hit and keep on going and it's rather brutal.

[Rokusaburo]

I picked Byakuya and Kenpachi specifically beacuse they contradict each other in almost every way possible except that they both kick ass.

Kenpachis weakness and at the same time strength agianst yama is his "not knowing fear" why? simply put because he will agree to battle because of it, he will not be abel to realize he has no chance, ultimatley he will die blinded by his truth.

In the other hand Byakuya has more reasoning to him then meets the eye. He would comprehend that the battle is futile and even might think about not ever raising his sword @ his master. But this too will only spell death for byakuya cuzz it gives him the sense of "am i doing the right thing?" "Should I be going up against justice itself?" and that will only bring weakness..


BUT...


Like i said before, lets keep this between skill.

Kenpachis rashness and byakuyas sense of loyalty have nothing to do with his. Yama is far ahead of them in skill, and thats what would mean the death of these 2 taicho

[Rokusaburo]

Well, how can you say that. I bet Ken can fight Yama and have a good chance of not losing quickly. He is too ferocious and fearless. Remember, Ukitake and the other captain never lost to Yama. They might have in the end, but they are not Ken and Buyakuya.

Just because Yama is stronger than every other captain does not mean he is impregnable. Otherwise Ukitake and the other captain wouldn't have fought him. They are the most rational captains in the Gotei 13, they wouldn't stumble into a fight not knowing what they are getting into. That implies that they KNEW that they had a chance. And if they had a achance, then Ken and Buyakuya are almost likely to win, because they are so much more powerful.

If you do the math in your head, the battle only lasts a good 10-15 minutes. even less. In that time Yama schooled their asses

[M_Ghey]

By a long shot I agree with you on half your post.

I guess I will make myself clearer~

Kenpachis weakness and strength is the same escense, His love for fighting. It is a double edged sword that knows no fear. It acts against him and ales him at will.

Against any other ordinary advisary, it works very will in conjunction with him. yet, against Yama i would only Imagine that it wouldnt. Why, because the magnitude of the gravity of the situation ( i know sounds redundant) leads to no ends in favor for both byakuya and kenpachi. Sure they can help each other out and 2 against 1 is better then a solo fight. but, I would have to say Kenpachis weakness is reenforced seeing as he will go into the fight, with absoultley no care and preocupaction in his mind. And that will be the end of him, why? Because he will die blinded by his own truth.
hehe. Gret points, Roku.
But consider this, the maker of the thread might have decided to choose Buyakuya and Ken for a reason.

See, Kenpachi's weakness, as you stated, is his lust for fighting and he is too rash. That is why there is Buyakuya. For a second, consider them as one fighter, not two. Buyakuya is relatively rational and calm about fighting, so that might counterbalance Ken's weakness in the fight, creating a deadly equilibrium of brutality that is incredibly hard to counter. A ferocious, yet intelligent fighting machine. They are opposites, yet they would make each other stronger, lind of like the concept of yin and yang.

Lol, this is the first time I've used the phrase: deadly equilibrium of brutality. I dont know how I came up with that.

[monkeh]

except raw skill isn't the only factor.

If it was ken wouldn't have been a captain, wouldn't have beaten tousen, and other items.

So obviously there are factors other than skill in this...

[Rokusaburo]

Just because Yama is stronger than every other captain does not mean he is impregnable. Otherwise Ukitake and the other captain wouldn't have fought him.

They both had absoultley no choice but to fight. As well as its stated.

Yama was not going to let them not fight.

In order to at least prolong the fight and "see the outcome" "maybe he wont kill us just rape us really badly" they unsheated their weapons

And it wa sonly because Yama ordered them too, cuzz they did not want too

[Rokusaburo]

except raw skill isn't the only factor.

If it was ken wouldn't have been a captain, wouldn't have beaten tousen, and other items.

So obviously there are factors other than skill in this...

Of course their are, I never said discard them as a whole

but all i want right now is to hear a dibate on skill

[Kabane]

Here we go, this is what i have to say:

1. I, in no way, consider Byakuya or Kenpachi the two strongest captains, i dont know how you people came up to that conclusion. Their teamwork is in no way comparable to that of Ukitake and Kyouraku, who have effectively been working together since the beginning. So Ukitake Kyouraku > Byakuya Kenpachi

2. In terms of comparible power, i highly doubt that Yama would have trouble against Ichigo/Zaraki/Byakuya individually. If we want to use numbers, full power ichigo (without hollow) would be lets say 10. Now Byakuya is on par with full power ichigo (remember, no hollow involved) and Zaraki is on par with shikai Ichigo which we'll gauge at a 7. Now Byakuya regards Ukitake as "senpai" which means he is most probably stronger than Byakuya. We'll say 12, or somtehing liek that. So If Both Ukitake and Kyouraku are at the same level, they were easily taken down by Yama. Yama > Ukitake(12) + Kyouraku(12) so its possible that Yama could be as far as double Byakuya's power. If that made any sense.

3. I dont knwo if its just me, but i feel Kenpachi is overrated. Even though he "lost" to a shikai Ichigo people still regard him as the "strongest" captain. I fear that people took what the show said about him too literally. Even though he is supposedly this unknown power house I see no practical way to defeat Yama. Yama's power can be used at a distance which totally takes down any kind of contribution Kenpachi would offer. He may be able to take the hit but he offered nothing else in return. Also, Yama's flames far exceed the blast of Komamura, and i doubt Kenpachi would be able to escape it so easily.

4. On Byakuya, people say that he could send x amount of blades to effectively cut Yama but i doubt Yama would "take" the hit. If his bankai is "5 to 10 times more powerful" than his shikai then that adds to the side of Yama.

5. Yama on Flash Step - Its fairly clear that he isnt as avid at the art like say Yoruichi but he is still well versed in it. Yama's style of shunpo, so to speak, is longer strides rather than multiple steps. So rather than having to use multiple steps to move 100 feet to the left, he would move there in one step. This does take away from his manuverability but i dont think such is necessary if the only physical part of the battle would would against Zaraki whom i doubt is extremely fast. On Byakuya's attack, its possible he could move away from it in addition to "attacking" it but he'll have more trouble against that than against the physical attacks of Zaraki.

[monkeh]

Of course their are, I never said discard them as a whole
but all i want right now is to hear a dibate on skill

Ok that's good solid point to lay it out on, let's break down some points and have at it.

1. ranged
2. strats
3. close combat
4. pyschology (ability not to freak out and to push on)
5. ability to take a hit
6. speed

those items ok with ya?

EDIT

Ken lost to hollow ichigo, so did byakuya, not the same as shikai, both were shocked by that

[Rokusaburo]

But consider this, the maker of the thread might have decided to choose Buyakuya and Ken for a reason.

I am the maker of this thread ^^

[monkeh]

I am the maker of this thread ^^

owned I guess

but for a future thread, I'd wager a gin + aizen vs any other two would make a good topic, and leaves much open to debate, or at least as much as this does

[M_Ghey]

I am the maker of this thread ^^
I realized that by now, lol.

I still do not see how Yama can beat speed, brutal strenghth, and perfect attack from any angle. (Bu's shikai) I'd like to see him "dominating" Ken while fending off Bu's shikai. Or trying to get to Bu while slicing through petals and fightting off Zaraki. That way, Ken and Bu can keep each other alive, by focusing all their attack power on Yama every time the other is in trouble.

[Rokusaburo]

In terms of comparible power, i highly doubt that Yama would have trouble against Ichigo/Zaraki/Byakuya individually. If we want to use numbers, full power ichigo (without hollow) would be lets say 10. Now Byakuya is on par with full power ichigo (remember, no hollow involved) and Zaraki is on par with shikai Ichigo which we'll gauge at a 7. Now Byakuya regards Ukitake as "senpai" which means he is most probably stronger than Byakuya. We'll say 12, or somtehing liek that. So If Both Ukitake and Kyouraku are at the same level, they were easily taken down by Yama. Yama > Ukitake(12) + Kyouraku(12) so its possible that Yama could be as far as double Byakuya's power. If that made any sense.


Forget about Ichigo, Who he beat, how he beat them.

Fighting, for one thing has lead me to believe that not all battles are won with brawn and skill, some are won with luck.

I know im contradicting myself.

But

Ichigo beat kenpachi as shikai form, ichigo beat byakuya as bankai + hollow form, true, but this is just the same effect as : I.E (Pokemon) Charizard beats Venasaur, but cant beat blastoise, blastoise beats charizard but cant beat venasaur. Dunno if the point got through to you but what Im trying to say is dont base your facts on "oh if ichigo beat kenpachi with only shikai then kenpachi could never beat byakuya since eachigo beat byakuya full bankai + hollow form) thats not real evidence.

Like i said, Yama is yama, and he is that for a reason. ultimate power and supreme order, for obviouse reasons he is at the top and no one has planned a revolt agiants him. Why didnt aizen, ichimaru and them fools kill yama right then and their? who knows, but who cares, thats not the topic of this thread.

[Rokusaburo]

I still do not see how Yama can beat speed, brutal strenghth, and perfect attack from any angle.

What youd ont get is that the way they describe Yamas power in Bleach is almighty and omnipotent.

in this case bieng pure speed, brutal strength and perfect attacks from any angle.

Yama is the fastes, maybe not next to yoruichi but, he out "flash-steped" the 2 most skilled taichos~

[M_Ghey]

Like i said, Yama is yama, and he is that for a reason. ultimate power and supreme order, for obviouse reasons he is at the top and no one has planned a revolt agiants him. Why didnt aizen, ichimaru and them fools kill yama right then and their? who knows, but who cares, thats not the topic of this thread.
If you are saying that they didn't kill Yama because they couldn't then I don't see how your statement is valid. Why didn't they finish off Hitsu. Why didn't tehy kill anybody? Aizen could have, u know it. They didn't need to, that wasn't their mission. They could care less about whether yama lives or dies, all they needed was that thing from Rukia.
But anyway, the Pokemon allusion is accurate, but it works two ways. Just because Yama can beat Ukitake and that other captain doesn't mean he can beat Bu and Ken.

EDIT: when we first meet Bu and Ken, they are pretty much described as omnipotent and impossible to beat, and look what happened.

[Icestorm]

I agree with prophecy, Yama would win.. kenpachi and Byakuya would suck as a team.. just because there abilitys compliment eachother doesnt mean they would work well because i doubt there personalities would exactly work for them to even team in the first place.. they would never get a strat together.. Yama is a single person and has been fighting for god knows how many years.. he'd easily have some strat to beat them.. even if they could get an act together, Yama is the leader of the Gotei 13..

[Kabane]

Ichigo beat kenpachi as shikai form, ichigo beat byakuya as bankai + hollow form, true, but this is just the same effect as : I.E (Pokemon) Charizard beats Venasaur, but cant beat blastoise, blastoise beats charizard but cant beat venasaur. Dunno if the point got through to you but what Im trying to say is dont base your facts on "oh if ichigo beat kenpachi with only shikai then kenpachi could never beat byakuya since eachigo beat byakuya full bankai + hollow form) thats not real evidence.

i realize that it could be something liek that but Bleach isnt based on a rock paper scissors world that pokemon is. It is closer to real life where the strongest/most skilled man wins. then there are those stupid trump cards like guns but thats besides the point, the fact of hte matter is that kenpachi lost to a weaker version of the same opponent. I dont knwo about you but in my book that ranks him lower than byakuya.

Even if you used that blastoise>charizard>venasaur>blastoise stuff it all depends on the level of the monster and the skill of the player. Naturally if you have a level 50 Blastoise and the opponent is a level 80 Venasaur dont expect to win but if they were at the same level, Blastoise could play his cards right and attack in an organized fashion. its not necessarily ">" its more "if then" If Venesaur is against blastoise then Venasaur has a better chance to win. Continuing with this supposed comparison If Yamamoto is 30 levels above them then it doesnt matter what element they are, they'll lose either way.

[monkeh]

EDIT: when we first meet Bu and Ken, they are pretty much described as omnipotent and impossible to beat, and look what happened.

well this is what adds spice to this entire debate. from what we are told ken is and byakuay are impossible to defeat, for oposite reasons... yet we don't understand how yama stands.

But you'd think that two people who are beyond all power in their own way, can put up a fight.

[Rokusaburo]

If you are saying that they didn't kill Yama because they couldn't then I don't see how your statement is valid. Why didn't they finish off Hitsu. Why didn't tehy kill anybody? Aizen could have, u know it. They didn't need to, that wasn't their mission. They could care less about whether yama lives or dies, all they needed was that thing from Rukia.
But anyway, the Pokemon allusion is accurate, but it works two ways. Just because Yama can beat Ukitake and that other captain doesn't mean he can beat Bu and Ken.


hence why i said i was contradicting myself. and probably am going to.

I used the aizen example as that, an example that this thread aint about aizen, nor ichigo, but about ken, byaku and yama

as for the pokem illustration, I was emphazaising luck, because if you put a level 100 blastoise against a level 100 Venasaur, their still is a chance blasotoise could win. even tho the odds are agianst him.

This would sound like im contradicting myself yet again saying that their is always a possibility for byaku and ken to defeat yama, but i still have yet to read one

[M_Ghey]

i realize that it could be something liek that but Bleach isnt based on a rock paper scissors world that pokemon is. It is closer to real life where the strongest/most skilled man wins. then there are those stupid trump cards like guns but thats besides the point, the fact of hte matter is that kenpachi lost to a weaker version of the same opponent. I dont knwo about you but in my book that ranks him lower than byakuya.

Even if you used that blastoise>charizard>venasaur>blastoise stuff it all depends on the level of the monster and the skill of the player. Naturally if you have a level 50 Blastoise and the opponent is a level 80 Venasaur dont expect to win but if they were at the same level, Blastoise could play his cards right and attack in an organized fashion. its not necessarily ">" its more "if then" If Venesaur is against blastoise then Venasaur has a better chance to win. Continuing with this supposed comparison If Yamamoto is 30 levels above them then it doesnt matter what element they are, they'll lose either way.
That's right, IF he is 30 levels above them But I doubt that he is. He is just stronger tyhan any single captain, that is all. And, like you said, Bleach is relatively realistic, so things like passion, fury, lack of fear and cold precision play a part too. Yama isn't Aizen, he can't beat people with one hit.

[Kabane]

Yama isn't Aizen, he can't beat people with one hit.

But its safe to say that Yama is close to Aizen in power. If Aizen was truly that much stronger than Yama then i see no reason why he didnt destroy all of SS right then and there. At the moment, most of the captains were weak and drained from previous battle so if he wanted to attack, it was as good a chance as ever. So if Aizen couldnt take Yama down that easily then it would make it more understandable that he didnt attack SS.

[M_Ghey]

hence why i said i was contradicting myself. and probably am going to.

I used the aizen example as that, an example that this thread aint about aizen, nor ichigo, but about ken, byaku and yama

as for the pokem illustration, I was emphazaising luck, because if you put a level 100 blastoise against a level 100 Venasaur, their still is a chance blasotoise could win. even tho the odds are agianst him.

This would sound like im contradicting myself yet again saying that their is always a possibility for byaku and ken to defeat yama, but i still have yet to read one
Believe it or not, but Yam is not a God. It is possible, even for him, to make a mistake, a miscalculation. If he does that, then Ken and Bu should be smart enough to take advantage of that.
*sits and waits for an argument that decimates this sorry excuse for one*

[Rokusaburo]

It is closer to real life where the strongest/most skilled man wins.

read that a couple times over and over please.

As for the 30 level gap LOL OMFG.


I did not use the pokemon example to symbolize that, I mearly used it to symbolize Skill and LUCK.
Obviousley when i set the example i meant both pokemon of the same level.

But, again, like everyone already knows, Yama is at a much higher level then kenpachi and byakuya.

Only stating that luck is a possiblity that can never be discarded. now regarding skill, read the quote again.

[Rokusaburo]

Believe it or not, but Yam is not a God. It is possible, even for him, to make a mistake, a miscalculation. If he does that, then Ken and Bu should be smart enough to take advantage of that.
*sits and waits for an argument that decimates this sorry excuse for one*


Im only gonna say thats too many "what if's" :)

[M_Ghey]

But its safe to say that Yama is close to Aizen in power. If Aizen was truly that much stronger than Yama then i see no reason why he didnt destroy all of SS right then and there. At the moment, most of the captains were weak and drained from previous battle so if he wanted to attack, it was as good a chance as ever. So if Aizen couldnt take Yama down that easily then it would make it more understandable that he didnt attack SS.
Why would he? Imagine this, you just achieved something you have been searching for a long time. This new founf thing wil make you even more powerful. Why would you care about SS and Yama. They are nothing. Aizen's goal was achieved and he left. He could have killed Hitsu, Renji, and Ichigo. He didn't. He doesn't care enough about killing them. They are nothing to him.

Anyway, like Roku said, we are going off topic, so I wil stop talking about Ichigo and Aizen and all that.

[monkeh]

[quote]This would sound like im contradicting myself yet again saying that their is always a possibility for byaku and ken to defeat yama, but i still have yet to read one[quote]

strawman and an arguementative fallacy

The possibility lies in ken (which we all have agreed on) and the amount of abuse he can take. His loss vs ichigo was more of a "blah he is not fighting my way I give up and want to find out how the **** that happened" not an actual loss. There is the possibility ken just goes bat shit insane and rushes in takes a ton of abuse (which we know he can several vital organ hits via tosen) and says "hey this is pretty fun let's see how far I can go" thus he is the wild card.

The key question here is can ken take enough abuse while rushing in non stop like a lunatic while byakuya stays back and attacks from range... this is in byakuyas favor because HE CAN HIT BOTH AT THE SAME TIME AND DISREGARD KENS LIFE, because we all know neither gives a damn about the other.

Their weakness is their greatest strength, that's what makes them a great pair.

[Rokusaburo]

It seems the tables have turned and now I am defending byakuya and kenpachi, but let me make myself clear.

I am only saying, the way i can consider byakuya and kenpachi winning, is if they get reall oh so goddamn lucky.

Anyone wana show me another way?

[M_Ghey]

Im only gonna say thats too many "what if's" :)
Well, that is kinda what you will have to rely on when you fight Yama.

[Kabane]

OR...Yama could be smart and take out Byakuya first, which any normal person would do.

[monkeh]

Well, that is kinda what you will have to rely on when you fight Yama.

that's what you rely on with most captain vs captains, other then say hitsu, who got worked twice:winking56

[Rokusaburo]

Why would he? Imagine this, you just achieved something you have been searching for a long time. This new founf thing wil make you even more powerful. Why would you care about SS and Yama. They are nothing. Aizen's goal was achieved and he left. He could have killed Hitsu, Renji, and Ichigo. He didn't. He doesn't care enough about killing them. They are nothing to him.

Anyway, like Roku said, we are going off topic, so I wil stop talking about Ichigo and Aizen and all that.


If you pay attention to what Yama says, the menos grande's use that special beam of light when they come to aid their kind.
Reenforcing the fact that Aizen has betrayed them all and the fact that aizen had no chance agianst all of them.

But yes, this is off topic

[M_Ghey]

Fine, let's try this. Roku- give me a specific, SPECIFIC, way that Yama can fend off ALL the petals of Bu's shikai AND fend off every hit that Zaraki makes. How is Yama going to kill them if he has to spend every second avoiding the petals? I am sure he is not as fast as Ichi's bankai.

[Rokusaburo]

that's what you rely on with most captain vs captains

I call BS

Why because u disticntly said "Captain vs. Captain"

Kenpachi leveld tousen with skill, not luck

[captain_soifon]

OR...Yama could be smart and take out Byakuya first, which any normal person would do.
yea, they gap is way too big, even if byakuya and kenpachi got lucky they would just hurt yama yet kill him, dont forget that yama still has bankai what he used vs shunsui and utitake was just his shikai

opps acidently voted kenpachi and byakuya =[

[M_Ghey]

I call BS

Why because u disticntly said "Captain vs. Captain"

Kenpachi leveld tousen with skill, not luck
that is true. Just because two captains are both, well, captains does NOT mean that they are on the same level of power and skill.

[Rokusaburo]

Fine, let's try this. Roku- give me a specific, SPECIFIC, way that Yama can fend off ALL the petals of Bu's shikai AND fend off every hit that Zaraki makes. How is Yama going to kill them if he has to spend every second avoiding the petals? I am sure he is not as fast as Ichi's bankai.

Bankais have a limit.

Same way ichigo slached all of them away, yama would do the same. Yama wouldnt even get touched. He is way too fast for that. He wouldnt toy around with them either. hed finish them off quite quickly. Senbozakura is a bankai, taking NOW bankai into consideration, lets take Yamas unknown bankai into consideration. Enough said. I doubt they would be able to keep up. Yama is the one who has had most experience with any combat tactic, bankai shikai or not. Plus remember all it takes is a good blow, and your bankai dicipates.

[monkeh]

I call BS
Why because u disticntly said "Captain vs. Captain"
Kenpachi leveld tousen with skill, not luck

tousen had more skill on EVERY level, ken just could take a hit and was nuts

[M_Ghey]

Dammit, Roku. I am forced to submit beneath your endless stream of steel logic. Good debate, sir. I am off to bed.

[captain_soifon]

i agree if tousen wouldve just went for his nech instead of body i think he would of beaten kenpachi, but then if kenpachi had his eyepatch off, its a different story, but generally tousen has more skills and kenpachi has raw power

[Rokusaburo]

tousen had more skill on EVERY level, ken just could take a hit and was nuts

Listen, Ken had all the odds against him, He couldnt see, hear, smell. that would make it Luck, yes.

But he devises a strategy, how would he know this?
Getting hit so that he could see, hear and smell Tousen.
You could say thats luck but throwing off to skill

I would agree with you up until now but, kenpachi does it a second time to prove his theory. once it is done a second time it siezes to be called Luck my friend. That is Skill deviced in that specific moment

[Kabane]

tousen had more skill on EVERY level, ken just could take a hit and was nuts

Skill - noun - Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.

Skill is not constrained to simply im better at this than you, it also requires someone to think on his feet and figure out a way to overcome some sort of obstacle.

Do you think that any captain could htink of such a ludicrous way beat it?

[Rokusaburo]

Dammit, Roku. I am forced to submit beneath your endless stream of steel logic. Good debate, sir. I am off to bed.

Take care man, have a good one and I'll wait for your posts later today

[monkeh]

Skill - noun - Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.

Skill is not constrained to simply im better at this than you, it also requires someone to think on his feet and figure out a way to overcome some sort of obstacle.

Do you think that any captain could htink of such a ludicrous way beat it?

hit in a vital organ = dead, if your kidney, neck, heart, or brain gets hit that's it over dead done.

The ability to take that hit makes it less skill and more "I can take a sword in the kidney and walk from it because I'm nuts".

In that aspect tousen did get the advantage on him, ken just was able to take the hit and then work around it.

IF it was anybody but ken, they would have died and not had time to formulate a strat, thus his beating it was more out of raw insanity then skill.

[Kabane]

I would consider it insanity if they didnt show us his thought process while doing it. Kenpachi was able to use what he had in order to defeat Tousen, that is skill.

[Rokusaburo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by prophecy424
Skill - noun - Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.

Skill is not constrained to simply im better at this than you, it also requires someone to think on his feet and figure out a way to overcome some sort of obstacle.

Do you think that any captain could htink of such a ludicrous way beat it?


hit in a vital organ = dead, if your kidney, neck, heart, or brain gets hit that's it over dead done.

The ability to take that hit makes it less skill and more "I can take a sword in the kidney and walk from it because I'm nuts".

In that aspect tousen did get the advantage on him, ken just was able to take the hit and then work around it.

IF it was anybody but ken, they would have died and not had time to formulate a strat, thus his beating it was more out of raw insanity then skill.

This only proves the point that Tousen has no skill and kenpachi does.

Again, take into consideration tousen is blind. Yet, if he wanted to hit a vital organ he would have had, why because he is that good. Did he? No

And again, the only hit tousen landed was on his shoulder, from their on kenpachi used his start to beat him, thus recieving one more blow, but in account for his own actions

[Rokusaburo]

"He took my tenken and tousens crimson flying locusts... and still stands calmly!?" - Komamura refering to zaraki

"he cant use his eyes, ears, or nose right now..he cant even sense spirit force, and yet... how can he dodge!?... again i missed a vital spot by a hair breath. His cuts, after dodging my attacks and gradually gaining accuracy too..is he truly a demon" - tousen @ kenpachi


Quoted from another post of mine.

U judge for yourself if that is skill or luck

thats exactly traduced from the series

[captain_soifon]

thats not skill nor luck as stated skill is: "Skill - noun - Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience."


it was his amazing reiatsu

[M_Ghey]

One last post today: How is all this relevant to Yama and Ken and Bu? I don't undersatnd how it can be unclear that Ken has skill. He is obsessed with fighting, that alone makes his swordsmanship skill amazing. And he is also smarter then we all think, that is why he beat Toussen. He used logic that was unmolested by fear and doubt, and that is one of the greatest skills/strenghts in a battle

[Rokusaburo]

thats not skill nor luck as stated skill is: "Skill - noun - Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience."


it was his amazing reiatsu

Dude, to devise a strategy against incredible odds and come out a victor is skill. NOT luck

those were just some points to restate my origianl post of calling BS

And if that aint skill man, then I dont know what it is.

In my book I give it to him dead on

[captain_soifon]

oh i thought you said surviving the tenken and lotus thing was skill =p

[Rokusaburo]

One last post today: How is all this relevant to Yama and Ken and Bu? I don't undersatnd how it can be unclear that Ken has skill. He is obsessed with fighting, that alone makes his swordsmanship skill amazing. And he is also smarter then we all think, that is why he beat Toussen. He used logic that was unmolested by fear and doubt, and that is one of the greatest skills/strenghts in a battle


Ur right it has nothing to do with the original topic, but it does with the sub topic that states that when fighting... taicho vs. taicho the only thing that can be measured is luck

[monkeh]

He used logic that was unmolested by fear and doubt, and that is one of the greatest skills/strenghts in a battle

i'd call that instinct in his case, and not a skill

[Rokusaburo]

oh i thought you said surviving the tenken and lotus thing was skill =p

It may get kind of confusing.

But hey, thanks to you all im one step closer to my goal.

Went from 60-133 posts in this one thread alone

[Cassie]

It is very obvious that there is a huge gap even between taichos.

the fact that Hitsugaya got his ass pwnt by Aizen is clear enough.

[M_Ghey]

Roku- I disagree then (with the luck statement). Just because two people are taicho does not mean they have equal skill level. The Ken, Toussen fight is a good example, then. And I am sure that Buyakuya wouls pawn Toussen as well. So, I do not see how that statement about luck can be successfuly defended.

[Rokusaburo]

And my friends, Logic is a skill fabricated by ones self (inner conscience). Instinct and logic are hand in hand. Thats why not everyone reacts at the same speed or knows what to do right away. yet some other do. U fabricate it and work on it. Hence a skill.

[captain_soifon]

disagree to what? -on topic, im sure yama would pwn both kenpachi and byakuya together.. he is after all the leader of the the gotei 13

dont confuse skill with natural talent, ken was born with a high reiatsu

[Rokusaburo]

Just because two people are taicho does not mean they have equal skill level

omg... exactly my point aizen -_-; read over my post again...

im saying that LUCK is not the only thing that can be measured... u have to take into consideration everything else!! like skill and what not -_-;

WHEN CONFRONTED WITH THE QUESTION TAICHO VS. TAICHO...

NOW.. YAMA IS ANOTHER STORY

[monkeh]

It may get kind of confusing.
But hey, thanks to you all im one step closer to my goal.
Went from 60-133 posts in this one thread alone

this is because a certain person didn't come and say "I'm right, and am always right in these thread, but people will call me a fanboy" as his opening arguement:winking56

[captain_soifon]

hmm i never said "I'm right, and am always right in these thread, but people will call me a fanboy"

[Rokusaburo]

Point is Aizen is misunderstanding my point lol~

[monkeh]

hmm i never said "I'm right, and am always right in these thread, but people will call me a fanboy"

and that comment wasn't directed at you

[captain_soifon]

oh` who then?

[Kabane]

lol it was Byakuya7, though he went with Yama..

[Rokusaburo]

Aizen please reread over the posts and post your thoughts again please, im sure u must have missread somewhere >_<;

[captain_soifon]

to say ken + byakuya > yama is saying ken + bya >>>>>>>> utitake + pink shirt guy, also in an earlier post it was stated byakuya + ken next strongest captains, i must disagree, i think pink shirt guy and utitake is next strongest i would rank byakuya 4th and kenpachi 5th

[Rokusaburo]

Pink shit guy is Ryouraku ^^

"Yamamoto-sama は時間のByakuya そしてKenpachi を所有しない"

[captain_soifon]

nice Ryouraku, and what?

[Rokusaburo]

Nevermind the JP, im just bored lol

[kitty_catt]

I voted old man yama ji.

I mean seriously this isnt even a contest. Byakuya and Kenpachi is two of the WORST team players in the Gotei 13 - Byakuya with his arrogance and Kenpachi with his 'ill kill you if you get in my way' mentality -!!! They'll prob kill each other before even laying a finger on the old man!!!

Look at the fight between Ukitake, Shunsui and the old man. Ukitake and Shunsui are team players and they have sparred together for over 2000 years, they have been captians for 2000 years and they both copped a beating from the old man. With Byakuya and Kenpachi both with less than 100 years of experience as captian i think they'll get their ass kicked really really badly.

[Rokusaburo]

Look at the fight between Ukitake, Shunsui and the old man. Ukitake and Shunsui are team players and they have sparred together for over 2000 years, they have been captians for 2000 years and they both copped a beating from the old man. With Byakuya and Kenpachi both with less than 100 years of experience as captian i think they'll get their ass kicked really really badly.

Amen, something reasonable

[_senbonzakura_]

i am highly hoping that this fight wont happened at all, but if it does, with all my respect of Byakuya-sama`s and Kenpachi`s abilities, i think that Yama will turn them into dust before they manage to release their bankai.../talking bout Byakuya`s bankai, Zaraki doesnt have one...yet../

[Undying]

Too true. However strong Byakuya and Kenpachi are, Yama-ji is stronger. His Shikai alone can burn Senbonsakura into molten metal.

[_senbonzakura_]

Too true. However strong Byakuya and Kenpachi are, Yama-ji is stronger. His Shikai alone can burn Senbonsakura into molten metal.
If Byakuya-sama managed to release it at the first place...

[Boko]

Kenoachi will go crazy and kill them both mohahahha

[_senbonzakura_]

Kenoachi will go crazy and kill them both mohahahha
thats simply imposible......

[frbbls]

Kenpachi will just laugh when his hair will get on fire. xD
Insane as he is...

[_senbonzakura_]

Kenpachi will just laugh when his hair will get on fire. xD
Insane as he is...
yes, he will die laughing .../and probably happy/.....what a relieve...lol

[Marke]

we dont know anything about the old man. So we cant really say who wins.
but im guessing the old man would.

[Katen Kyoukotsu]

Um ......im a litttle confused. i was reading some of the earlier pages from this thread and all i heard was well since Kyouraku and Ukitake got owned......excuse me they didnt get owned. Not only did they not even fight with Yama they werernt even serious about it in the first place. And personally I think they would have had a much better chance than byakuya and kenpachi.

[_senbonzakura_]

Um ......im a litttle confused. i was reading some of the earlier pages from this thread and all i heard was well since Kyouraku and Ukitake got owned......excuse me they didnt get owned. Not only did they not even fight with Yama they werernt even serious about it in the first place. And personally I think they would have had a much better chance than byakuya and kenpachi.
nah..its nonsence..better chance than Byakuya and Kenpachi...no way..

[Katen Kyoukotsu]

nah..its nonsence..better chance than Byakuya and Kenpachi...no way..
Hmmm lets think what do Kyouraku and Ukitake have.1. they are they eldest captains which makes them not only the most experienced but most likely the strongest. Although Byakuya and Kenpachi are undeniably strong they dont have the same lvl of experience and havent been working with theyr zanpakuto's as long 2. Theyve been friends for a long time so not only do they know how to fight together they have simalar fighting styles(they both use two swords). Byakuya and Kenpachi.....well im not even sure if they know each others names, plus that kenpachi would probably try to do the whole fight himself. 3.Theyve known Yama longer and therefore know what to expect in a battle with them. Neither Kenpachi nor Byakuya seem to know much of Yama4. Ukitake and Shunsei are undeniably smarter than Kenpachi probably on the same lvl as Byakuya....big diffrence.... Byakuya is arrogant he thinks he can win anything though that might be less profound now.

Therefore Shunsei and Ukitake have a better chance of defeating Yama then Byakuya and Kenpachi.

[Sorian]

Kyouraku and Ukitake have teamwork unlike Byakuya and Kenpachi. If Kyouraku and Ukitake would have had a hard time then Old Man Yama would destroy Byakuya and Kenpachi.

[Nood]

Byakuya and Kenpachi could never even work together, totally different fighting style.
Kenpachi would first try to kill, or make byakuya pass out. Than he would want an 1v1 against yama-jii. (And that fight would be like a Captain fighting a non-seated 4 div. member)

[Cheryl]

Kenpachi would first try to kill, or make byakuya pass out. Than he would want an 1v1 against yama-jii. (And that fight would be like a Captain fighting a non-seated 4 div. member)

Now that you mention it, that's a big possibility...

[M-50]

Old man yama would kill the other two. he would mash them up so bad. :headbang:

[Rokusaburo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Undying
Too true. However strong Byakuya and Kenpachi are, Yama-ji is stronger. His Shikai alone can burn Senbonsakura into molten metal.

If Byakuya-sama managed to release it at the first place...

Indeed.

As for Marke- We do know enough about the old man to logically base ourselves that he would decimate byaku and kenpachi. at least I think so.

[Rokusaburo]

Byakuya and Kenpachi could never even work together, totally different fighting style.
Kenpachi would first try to kill, or make byakuya pass out. Than he would want an 1v1 against yama-jii. (And that fight would be like a Captain fighting a non-seated 4 div. member)

That could be 1 of the many possibilities to this battle.

But again I picked kenpachi and byakuya precisley because theycontradict themselves. That being said, put all that aside and come into my idealistic scenario. Where Btakuya and kenpachi instead of canceling each other out, feed off from where they lack and compliment each other.

[Undying]

The problem is Yama's Shikai ability - it burns everything to a crisp. Byakuya and Kenpachi will most likely survive it, their Zanpaku-tos... I don't think so. And just to correct one fact - Byakuya is nearly the same age as Ukitake, they studied together.

[Rokusaburo]

The problem is Yama's Shikai ability - it burns everything to a crisp. Byakuya and Kenpachi will most likely survive it, their Zanpaku-tos... I don't think so. And just to correct one fact - Byakuya is nearly the same age as Ukitake, they studied together.

That is true, but Ukitake was taicho~ way before Byakuya

[Undying]

Being a captain and being captain level are two different things. There could be no vacant place for Byakuya to fill, or he just plain didn't want to.

[Rokusaburo]

Being a captain and being captain level are two different things. There could be no vacant place for Byakuya to fill, or he just plain didn't want to.

That is not known. It cant be proven their for, for now it is not a fact

[Undying]

Well, yes. It's not a fact, but Byakuya is renowned as strong. He has what is neccessary to back up this claim, no?

[Rokusaburo]

Well, yes. It's not a fact, but Byakuya is renowned as strong. He has what is neccessary to back up this claim, no?

He is strong, ive never taken that away from him. That if that is sufficient to back up the claim well, you tell me?

U posted that Ukitake and Byakuya studied together, Implying that their really isint a difference in experience, for the least?

Thats what I understood.

Then you made allegations that, being taicho and being taicho level are not one in the same.

...and to conclude, U stated that ""probably" their wasn't any vacant spot for byakuya at the time, he probably didn't want to accept one right away"

I'm sorry but I think thats a llittle over the hill, If your in death god school u train to be the best, to be ultimatley taicho, i dont think their is anyone who would turn down, for the moment, a possition of taicho. Specially not byakuya with how arogant he is. Second of all, If their is a power in one person recognizable as taicho material they give that person the chance to fight the original Taicho~ whoever wins gets the seat. It can NOT be that their wasnt any vacant spots

[SmallKid57]

old man yama.... yama-jii can shunpo like hell, he out shunpoed shunsui/ukitake by like a minute.... so zaraki cant really do anything b/c he has to get up close and yama-jii can just keep his distance b/c he's faster... and yama-jii's shikai can just burn up byakaya's flowers.... and swords...

and even if yama's shikai doesn't kill byakaya, he can use his bankai... which we dont know yet but its obviously gonna be disgustingly strong... so yea...

[Hotaru]

Byakuya and Kenpachi will win, as suggested before, Byakuya will use his brain and Kenpachi is brawn... Byakuya Zenbonsakura Kageyoshi is amazing at defence, so he will defend both of them and attck any openings, Kenpachi will jst try to get cut and cut Yama at the same time... This is assuming that Ken-chan's Bankai is fighting orientated (I don't see why it shouldn't be!!!)

[Rokusaburo]

Thats another interesting view point.

Yamas shikai vs. Byakuyas Bankai

I would stake my money on yama

[Kabane]

Why do you people intergrate Kenpachi's "bankai" into it. He doesnt have it, therefor its inapplicable.

[Rokusaburo]

Byakuya and Kenpachi will win, as suggested before, Byakuya will use his brain and Kenpachi is brawn... Byakuya Zenbonsakura Kageyoshi is amazing at defence, so he will defend both of them and attck any openings, Kenpachi will jst try to get cut and cut Yama at the same time... This is assuming that Ken-chan's Bankai is fighting orientated (I don't see why it shouldn't be!!!)


U seem to forget that Yama's speed is unmatched. Byakuya defending and kepnachi attacking would combine tactics but not make the threat any bigger.

Yama would Out match them, by far

[Rokusaburo]

Why do you people intergrate Kenpachi's "bankai" into it. He doesnt have it, therefor its inapplicable.


Exactly~ /sigh, thats why originally I said set aside bankai/shikai ;;

[BeeCrest]

Not sure if someone mentioned this, but in one episode Shunsui and Ukitake did say the Gen. Yama is a bit rusty, so he isn't at the top of his game (?)

[Rokusaburo]

Same thing Byakuya said to renji when he first met Ichigo.

If i dont fight in a long time even my skills will get rusty.

which proves 2 points. Yama hasn't had to fight in a very long time- derrives from he hasn't had reason to unsheath his sword.

and it very well may be that he is a bit rusty. In any case, he did prove otherwise when up against ukkitake and Kyouraku

And if Yama is a bit rusty, and schooled Ukkitake and Kyouraku, wouldnt that mean that he is even more powerfull then what we anticipate?

[Katen Kyoukotsu]

Same thing Byakuya said to renji when he first met Ichigo.
If i dont fight in a long time even my skills will get rusty.
which proves 2 points. Yama hasn't had to fight in a very long time- derrives from he hasn't had reason to unsheath his sword.
and it very well may be that he is a bit rusty. In any case, he did prove otherwise when up against ukkitake and Kyouraku
And if Yama is a bit rusty, and schooled Ukkitake and Kyouraku, wouldnt that mean that he is even more powerfull then what we anticipate?
They never evn fought. The only thing he proved is that hes got a glare of death he can take out his shikai and hes not afraid to talk smack lol.

[Cassie]

When it comes to fights like this, it's obvious that speed and spirit energy determines the outcome. During the encounter with Yama vs Ukitake/Shunsui, Nanao said that it was hopeless after feeling Yama's spirit energy. This clearly shows that Yama exceeds both Ukitake/Shunsui's spirit energy combined, not to mention that he's definitely much fast. Because of the "magic" that is involved, fighting with brains or fearlessness doesn't not make a difference. Because Yama's spirit energy is so high, much like what Kenpachi said during his fight with Ichigo, there's no way for Yama to be cut. Byakuya's senbonzakura would probably work out in the same way. Only under conditions where the spirit energy is greater or equal, will it be a great defense mechanism. Since Yama's spirit energy is so much stronger, it'll just pulvarize everything.

My opinion in the end: Yama excels over Byakuya and Kenpachi in every single way. Unlike in real life, in the bleach world, you cannot break something thats that much better. Byakuya and Kenpachi doesn't stand a ghost of a chance.

[Rokusaburo]

They never evn fought. The only thing he proved is that hes got a glare of death he can take out his shikai and hes not afraid to talk smack lol.

"im all my years, ive never been given the slip by little brats on the run" -yama

"Thirteen court guardian squads commander general, yamamoto genryuusai shigekuni... as one would expect he has an imcomprehensible spirit force.
Our side is two captains, but that doesnt mean we can win...........................Even two captains can't nessecarily win, no, how naive of me, at this rate, its completley...hopeless...captain kyouraku..." - nanao-chan

"How long has it been since i have seen him in this state... how long has it been since my body has been struck with a fear so abyssal and encompassing as the depths of the sea... at shikai his spirit force is already exhorbitant.. that heat scourches the heavens and even erases the clouds...the path carved by his blade renders the entire world into smoldering ashes..Among all soul slayers it boastes the greatest attack power.. and of flame-heat types, it is the oldest and strongest soul slayer.." -ukkitake

After that they release their soul slayers as well and guess what... they clash blades.... that counts as fighting ^^

[Byakuya7]

Exactly the above quotes that you posted is already proof that Yamamoto is a force to be reckoned with, and that neither Byakuya nor Kenpachi can handle him at this moment.

[M_Ghey]

The point is, Ukitake and the other captain never lost, they were able to at least hold their own for a while. Buyakuya and Kenpachi are a lot stronger, so they should be able to do more than simply stay alive.

[Kabane]

Buyakuya and Kenpachi are a lot stronger, so they should be able to do more than simply stay alive.

how do you know? there is nothing that supports that.

[Byakuya7]

The point is, Ukitake and the other captain never lost, they were able to at least hold their own for a while. Buyakuya and Kenpachi are a lot stronger, so they should be able to do more than simply stay alive.


Assuming that Byakuya and Kenpachi are stronger than Shunsui and Ukitake is pure speculation. We havent seen Shunsui or Ukitakes potential, nor have we seen their full power so we cant make that conclusion.

[Rokusaburo]

The point is, Ukitake and the other captain never lost, they were able to at least hold their own for a while. Buyakuya and Kenpachi are a lot stronger, so they should be able to do more than simply stay alive.


point is they fight from the point when yama unleashes his SS till they get the message to leave and head over to where the sacrificial shit is.

Right when they get the message look at kyourakus and ukkitakes face... they are bleading, look at yama? not a scratch on him lol, OWNED

As for byakuya and kenpachi, again, not always does the stronger swordsman win (yama) u need speed of mind and speed of step, again.... yama > byakuya and kenpachi lol

[Byakuya7]

point is they fight from the point when yama unleashes his SS till they get the message to leave and head over to where the sacrificial shit is.
Right when they get the message look at kyourakus and ukkitakes face... they are bleading, look at yama? not a scratch on him lol, OWNED


I agree, they were totally owned. But what makes people say that Byakuya and Kenpachi would do any better?

[M_Ghey]

point is they fight from the point when yama unleashes his SS till they get the message to leave and head over to where the sacrificial shit is.

Right when they get the message look at kyourakus and ukkitakes face... they are bleading, look at yama? not a scratch on him lol, OWNED

As for byakuya and kenpachi, again, not always does the stronger swordsman win (yama) u need speed of mind and speed of step, again.... yama > byakuya and kenpachi lol
That is why I said hold him off, not defeat him. You hold someone off when you are weaker, and they were, and yet everyone always bleeds in every fight in Bleach, after witnessing their minor injuries, I did not see the "spanking" that they were promised.

[Rokusaburo]

I duno. I never put up the question "who stands a chance of being least raped by yama, byakuya + kenpachi or ukkitake + kyouraku"

the only thing that can be mentioned in this thread about them is comparison between how they fought yama, and how we think byakuya and kyouraku would fight yama. Not that one is stronger then the other. Although. I personally think That Kenpachi and Byakuya are stronger. But thats MHO~

[Rokusaburo]

That is why I said hold him off, not defeat him. You hold someone off when you are weaker, and they were, and yet everyone always bleeds in every fight in Bleach, after witnessing their minor injuries, I did not see the "spanking" that they were promised.

Do the math, Battle only lasts 10 maybe 15 minutes. 2 taichos can "Hold" and the word is HOLD off yama for that long

Now~ given the battle more time, the outcome would have been obviouse.

Even tho~ that does not matter in this thread.

[M_Ghey]

Well, I was just trung to be logical. If 2 people are injured, but not defeated in a fight,then, if we asume that they are stronger, 2 much stronger people might not get injured and even win.

[Byakuya7]

That is why I said hold him off, not defeat him. You hold someone off when you are weaker, and they were, and yet everyone always bleeds in every fight in Bleach, after witnessing their minor injuries, I did not see the "spanking" that they were promised.

Dont you think that Yamamoto felt regret fighting his two most cherised pupils? Its like Byakuya fighting Renji. He didnt want to kill him, just stop him and teach him a lesson. Yamamoto also didnt have a scratch on him while shunsui and Ukitake were exhausted and bleeding. Not to mention that Yama didnt even bother releasing his ban kai, but neither did Shunsui or Ukitake. From what we've seen Yamamoto completely owned Shunsui and Ukitakes Shi Kai with his own Shi Kai, so who's to say that he wont do the same or even worse if he releases ban kai? We've already seen Byakuyas potential, and for now we've seen what Kenpachi can do. Now ask yourself, do you really think they can stand up to Yama if he releases Ban Kai?

And you keep dwelling on the fact that Byakuya and Kenpachi are stronger than Ukitake and Shunsui. This was never proven so the point you are trying to make is just speculation based on what you've seen from Byakuya and Kenpachi, and what little you've seen from Ukitake and Shunsui.

[Rokusaburo]

Originally Posted by master_aizen
That is why I said hold him off, not defeat him. You hold someone off when you are weaker, and they were, and yet everyone always bleeds in every fight in Bleach, after witnessing their minor injuries, I did not see the "spanking" that they were promised.


Dont you think that Yamamoto felt regret fighting his two most cherised pupils? Its like Byakuya fighting Renji. He didnt want to kill him, just stop him and teach him a lesson. Yamamoto also didnt have a scratch on him while shunsui and Ukitake were exhausted and bleeding. Not to mention that Yama didnt even bother releasing his ban kai, but neither did Shunsui or Ukitake. From what we've seen Yamamoto completely owned Shunsui and Ukitakes Shi Kai with his own Shi Kai, so who's to say that he wont do the same or even worse if he releases ban kai? We've already seen Byakuyas potential, and for now we've seen what Kenpachi can do. Now ask yourself, do you really think they can stand up to Yama if he releases Ban Kai?

Hai, wakarimasu

Ukkitake makes reference to yamas power saying it is incomprehensible, for a taicho to be saying that, (taicho have incomprehensible power) Yamas power must utterly be surpassed his.

Now, If byakuya holds ukkitake in high esteem( taicho to taicho ) that would only mean that in respect it would go as follows:

yama > ukkitake > byakuya

Byakuya hold in high esteem ukkitake, lets say for the hell of it that their powers are more or less even, hell, lets even say byakuya is stronger then ukkitake, given ukkitakes condition. In the end of this rubble, the odds are still..


YAMA > Byakuya/Ukkitake

[M_Ghey]

Dont you think that Yamamoto felt regret fighting his two most cherised pupils? Its like Byakuya fighting Renji. He didnt want to kill him, just stop him and teach him a lesson. Yamamoto also didnt have a scratch on him while shunsui and Ukitake were exhausted and bleeding. Not to mention that Yama didnt even bother releasing his ban kai, but neither did Shunsui or Ukitake. From what we've seen Yamamoto completely owned Shunsui and Ukitakes Shi Kai with his own Shi Kai, so who's to say that he wont do the same or even worse if he releases ban kai? We've already seen Byakuyas potential, and for now we've seen what Kenpachi can do. Now ask yourself, do you really think they can stand up to Yama if he releases Ban Kai?

And you keep dwelling on the fact that Byakuya and Kenpachi are stronger than Ukitake and Shunsui. This was never proven so the point you are trying to make is just speculation based on what you've seen from Byakuya and Kenpachi, and what little you've seen from Ukitake and Shunsui.
Ok, to clear that up I will say this. The only way Ken and Bu have a ghost of a chance vs. Yama is IF they are much stronger than Ukitake and Shunsui. I am not going to say that they are, to prevent further argument. Just if they are, then they have a chance.

[Shinji]

Yama-jii would win, I think. But who knows maybe Yama-jii isn't powerful at all, not likely though.

[Rokusaburo]

Ok, to clear that up I will say this. The only way Ken and Bu have a ghost of a chance vs. Yama is IF they are much stronger than Ukitake and Shunsui. I am not going to say that they are, to prevent further argument. Just if they are, then they have a chance.

Thats a very realistic obvservation.

Now you are defending who? Byakuya and kenpachi or Yama?

Defend! :)

[Kabane]

lol but still there is more evidence suppporting Ukitake and Kyouraku are stronger than Byakuya and Kenpachi rather than the other way around.

[M_Ghey]

Thats a very realistic obvservation.

Now you are defending who? Byakuya and kenpachi or Yama?

Defend! :)
I was defending Bu and Ken, but all my arguments keep getting defeated soundly. I was just clarifying Buyakuya7's problem with me assuming that Bu and Ken were stronger than Ukitake.

[Rokusaburo]

I was defending Bu and Ken, but all my arguments keep getting defeated soundly. I was just clarifying Buyakuya7's problem with me assuming that Bu and Ken were stronger than Ukitake.

I know Aizen, and evenmoreso go to the first page and check your post. U were the first one to say kenpachi and byakuya were stronger then kyouraku and ukkitake. :\

U have brought up alot of interesting debates to fully back up your thought and for that I am thankfull

/bow

[Rokusaburo]

And Lol @ other thread, it got owned

[M_Ghey]

I know Aizen, and evenmoreso go to the first page and check your post. U were the first one to say kenpachi and byakuya were stronger then kyouraku and ukkitake. :\

U have brought up alot of interesting debates to fully back up your thought and for that I am thankfull

/bow
Thanks :biggrinki

I thought that the assumpton had to be made though. I mean if we think that Bu and Ken are less powerful, then there is no way they can win against Yama. The only way someone can think that they have a chance against Yama is to assume that they are stronger, otherwise the purpose of the debate is defeated. I think that they CAN beat Yama, so, therefore, I have to think that they are stronger than kyouraku and ukkitake, that's all. Otherwise, I have no right to argue in this debate, for I would be shamelessly contradicting myself.

[M_Ghey]

And Lol @ other thread, it got owned
Yea, what happened there? Why did it get closed? Seemed to be a pretty decent thread to me.

[Rokusaburo]

I thought that the assumpton had to be made though. I mean if we think that Bu and Ken are less powerful, then there is no way they can win against Yama. The only way someone can think that they have a chance against Yama is to assume that they are stronger, otherwise the purpose of the debate is defeated. I think that they CAN beat Yama, so, therefore, I have to think that they are stronger than kyouraku and ukkitake, that's all. Otherwise, I have no right to argue in this debate, for I would be shamelessly contradicting myself.


indeed, but remember everyone has their own thoughts and opinions and other get too much blood rushed into their heads wuite quickly lol~ U have done nothing more then defend your thoughs.

as for the other thread, something about already existing lol, mircale they left it open this long without closing it

[M_Ghey]

indeed, but remember everyone has their own thoughts and opinions and other get too much blood rushed into their heads wuite quickly lol~ U have done nothing more then defend your thoughs.

as for the other thread, something about already existing lol, mircale they left it open this long without closing it
Maybe it just seems like it's been open for long. It's just that it was so incredibly active. It's rare for threads to gain over 100 posts in like a day, like this one and the other one. You have a serious talent with persuasive and addicting threads, it seems. ^_^

[Undying]

You two have slipped W A Y off topic. Anyway, I think that as a team, Ukiatke and Kyouraku will own anyone in Soul-Society (exculding Aizen and Yama, that's a whole other debate). In teamwork. I think Byakuya is close, if not on, their level in individual power, because he was training for so long (he studied along with Ukitake, who was his Senpai). As for Kenpachi... he needs Shikai and Bankai first. Then he can take on the senior most captains.

[Rokusaburo]

You two have slipped W A Y off topic. Anyway, I think that as a team, Ukiatke and Kyouraku will own anyone in Soul-Society

Thats pretty way off topic


Anyhow~ back to the real topic, Old Man Yama is no God, that is a fact, But he is sure damn close to one. He basically created the gotei 13 and the academy per-say, he would never let anyone gain more power then him. that would be thoughts of getting overthrown. Like nanao~chan said "even two captains arent enough" Thats how I view it, and anybody and everybody is welcomed to come and stomp on my thought.

[Undying]

I... didn't get what did that statement about Nanao-chan was meant to be.
Like nanao~chan said "even two captains arent enough" Thats how I view it
What do you view?

[Rokusaburo]

"Thirteen court guardian squads commander general, yamamoto genryuusai shigekuni... as one would expect he has an imcomprehensible spirit force.
Our side is two captains, but that doesnt mean we can win...........................Even two captains can't nessecarily win, no, how naive of me, at this rate, its completley...hopeless...captain kyouraku..." - nanao-chan


this is what i meant

[M_Ghey]

I would stomp on your view, Roku, but I tried too many times already. I will come back when and if I can think of another argument that proves my opinion.

[Undying]

Oh, I see... Well, I think that Nano knows the extent of Kyouraku's powers, and most likely Ukitake's too. Now, if Byakuya and Kenpachi are indeed stronger than the senior moset captains.... Then they may win.

[Rokusaburo]

And thats coming from you? Supporting your answer which backs up 2 people who already have lost previouse battles.

Amazing

If yamas power is incomprehensible to ukkitake, which is the most experienced taicho along with kyouraku, how would byakuya react to this?

he would be overwhelmed. Owned

kenpachi wouldnt even think about that tho~

he would still want to fight, just to see how much he could do to yama. Ultimatley tha will be futile and he will die at the end.

[Sandal Hat]

Maybe it just seems like it's been open for long. It's just that it was so incredibly active. It's rare for threads to gain over 100 posts in like a day, like this one and the other one. You have a serious talent with persuasive and addicting threads, it seems. ^_^

You can use search and post all you want in the thread already dealing with that topic eventhough, if you read all of the posts then you might become enlightened and side with Byakuya being able to take down Zaraki.

Edit:

@Roku
Double posting = Warning

[Rokusaburo]

@Roku
Double posting = Warning
Lol I got owned.
Shouldnt this site have anti-bump protection tho?
Just a thought ^^

Sandal Hat

I'll run that by Darren when he comes back

[M_Ghey]

You can use search and post all you want in the thread already dealing with that topic eventhough, if you read all of the posts then you might become enlightened and side with Byakuya being able to take down Zaraki.

Edit:

@Roku
Double posting = Warning
Sure, but I do not need to be "enlightened". I was the one saying that Zaraki would lose, so I do not know what you mean there. Peace.

Sandal:

My apologies

*bows*